Ask Dr. Drew - Mattias Desmet: How "Mass Formation" Is Weaponizing Delusional Mobs With Constant Fear & Panic – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 348

Episode Date: April 20, 2024

“Mass Formation” – popularized by Mattias Desmet – is not in psychology textbooks. But we see examples of it every day as delusional mobs act like singular, hypnotized units: blindly following authority even when – to outside observers – they are obviously acting like cult members. GET DESMET’S BOOK: https://amzn.to/3UkjS3q Mattias Desmet is widely known as the pioneer researcher of mass formation (sometimes called “Mass Delusional Psychosis”) and mob mentality. His work gained prominence in 2021 when Dr. Robert Malone discussed it on The Joe Rogan Experience as an explanation for the strange actions of people during the pandemic. The episode was quickly censored by YouTube after being viewed by millions. Mattias Desmet is professor of psychology at the University of Ghent in Belgium and author of The Psychology of Totalitarianism. Desmet is the author of over one hundred peer-reviewed academic papers. In 2018 he received the Evidence-Based Psychoanalytic Case Study Prize of the Association for Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy, and in 2019 he received the Wim Trijsburg Prize of the Dutch Association of Psychotherapy. Follow him at https://x.com/desmetmattias and learn more at https://mattiasdesmet.org  「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors  • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at https://drdrew.com/paleovalley • COZY EARTH - Susan and Drew love Cozy Earth's sheets & clothing made with super-soft viscose from bamboo! Use code DREW to save up to 40% at https://drdrew.com/cozy • TRU NIAGEN - For almost a decade, Dr. Drew has been taking a healthy-aging supplement called Tru Niagen, which uses a patented form of Nicotinamide Riboside to boost NAD levels. Use code DREW for 20% off at https://drdrew.com/truniagen • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Get an extra discount with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 GEAR 」 • NANLITE - Dr. Drew upgraded his studio with Nanlite: the best lighting for film, TV, and live streaming podcasts. Bring your vision to life at https://drdrew.com/nanlite 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician with over 35 years of national radio, NYT bestselling books, and countless TV shows bearing his name. He's known for Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Teen Mom OG (MTV), The Masked Singer (FOX), multiple hit podcasts, and the iconic Loveline radio show. Dr. Drew Pinsky received his undergraduate degree from Amherst College and his M.D. from the University of Southern California, School of Medicine. Read more at https://drdrew.com/about Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We are on deck a little early today because of our guest whom I am very excited about. I've been wanting to interview him for a long time. It is Matthias Desmet. He is in Europe and so we are accommodating his time frame in order to be able to bring him to you today. He is a psychologist, a professor of psychology at the University of Ghent in Belgium, author of The Psychology of Totalitarianism. He dovetails nicely upon the conversation we had yesterday with Jack Posobiec. He has been sort of, I'd say, popularizing. He became synonymous with the term mass formation

after an appearance, an interview with Joe Rogan. And I was aware of mob behavior at that time and was trying to make sense of it and glommed on to Matthias Desmet as a source of great information, someone who'd been studying this phenomenon long before COVID. So we will get into it after this. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous.

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is the best and the only fully legal form of NR. And this is really the gold standard for NAD boosting vitamins. I love this product. I urge you to try it. Go to drdrew.com slash truniagen for 20% off your order. That is drdrew.com slash truniagen, T-R-U-N-I-A-G-E-N and enter drdrew at checkout, D-R-D-R-E-W, enter it at the checkout for 20% off. There we go. I just want to pile on really quick. I was thinking about this product this morning. To call this a supplement is not giving it enough due. This is probably the most important adjunct to managing aging, let's say. We all live longer these days and we have to accommodate that. I've been taking it for 12 years. If you

are over 40, you need to be on this. You will be sorry if you are not. A thousand milligrams a day was recommended. NAD is a key element in the aging process. It decreases and you have to boost it up and it reduces aging. When people say, I look younger than my age, I always assume it is that NAD because I've been on the NR for about 12 years now. The science is, to call this a supplement misses the point. This is something that it's probably the most important chemical in the 21st century, given how long we all are aging. If you want to age well, this is a key ingredient. All right, let's get to Matthias Desmond. Oh, and you can take it at any age, starting in your 30s. And it's great for reproductive health as well. That's true. That is true. All right. How mass formation and nudge technology are weaponizing

delusional mobs with constant fear and panic. That would summarize the thought bubble over my head through COVID. I saw the mobs. I sort of predicted the mobs because I kept saying that, you know, when there's a lot of narcissism flying around, people tend to gather and scapegoat. And scapegoating is what I saw happen

in the French Revolution. I started thinking about that as a model. Again, Matthias is a professor of psychology at University of Ghent in Belgium, author of The Psychology of Totalitarianism. I urge you to follow him on X at Desmet, D-E-S-M-E-T, M-A-T-T-I-A-S, Desmet Mathias, which is the opposite of his name, which is Matias Desmet, he's flipped it for X, on the website however is

matiasdesmet.org and then let's all go read the book, The Psychology of Totalitarianism is a perfect adjunct to The Unhuman we talked about yesterday, please welcome Matias Desmet Thank you for having me on It's a privilege I've been wanting to talk to you Welcome, Matthias Desmond. Thank you for having me on.

It's a privilege. I've been wanting to talk to you for the long, literally since I saw you on Rogan, I would say, is when I just got preoccupied with you and your website and your materials. Would you mind reviewing for our viewers what your history is with this topic and how you got involved with it and what you are we will get into i suppose then what your basic observations have been before covet oh yes let me try to put it in a nutshell i started my academic career somewhere back in um 2003 i started to do a PhD in psychology. And rather than doing a classical research in psychology, I studied research methods in psychology. And I noticed I first got an additional master's degree in statistics. And to just to be able as much as possible to study the quality of research methods.

And I noticed that like most research methods in psychology absolutely don't leave, don't lead up to valid conclusions. And coincidentally, at about the same time, the so-called replication crisis started in the sciences, which showed, this crisis showed, that up to 85% of the academic papers do not lead to so-called reproducible results, which means that they are worthless. And in 2005, John Ioannidis, a professor at Stanford, published a paper which was titled, Why Most Published Research Findings Are False. So that was the beginning of my academic career. I just started to become aware of the fact that most academic research actually has no objective value and in a certain way is not scientific at all. And then after that, I focused on psychological issues,

like I studied how language and human speech impacts on the human body and soul. And after that, I focused on mass psychology because I got really interested. To put it in a nutshell, I published my first results on the problematic quality of scientific research. And I noticed that most people in academia didn't want to listen to what I say, or at least they got angry because I revealed that most research

is actually, well, cannot be trusted. And at that moment, I started to realize that extremely intelligent people under certain circumstances can become completely blind for narratives that are in many respects completely absurd and I started to understand that this phenomenon cannot be understood on the basis of individual psychology alone, you need to understand group psychology and more specific, mass psychology to understand why people can become so blind, even, and maybe in particular,

extremely intelligent or better, highly educated people. And I started to focus on mass psychology then. I believe it was somewhere back in 2015. In 2017, I started to see that this mass psychology is very much related to the phenomenon of totalitarianism. So, like, the totalitarian state is something completely different than a classical dictatorship. In the beginning of the 20th century, the first totalitarian states emerged. Totalitarian states did not exist in the 20th century was that the phenomenon of mass formation, this specific kind of psychological group formation, became stronger and stronger and stronger throughout the last 200 years. And so in 2017, I started to focus on this phenomenon of mass formation and totalitarianism. And in 2020, the corona crisis started.

And immediately from the first week onwards, I started to study the statistics a little bit. I noticed that these statistics were completely off, completely absurd. I noticed that they predicted that in a small country such as Sweden, for instance, about 60,000 people would die by the end of May 2020 if the country didn't go into lockdown. And by the end of May 2020, Sweden hadn't gone into lockdown, and only 10% of the people died. And that figure of 10%, 6,000 people, had been exactly what I predicted in the first week of the crisis.

And I noticed just that no matter how clear it had become that all these initial models and all these mortality statistics had been completely off, the narrative in the media just continued as if the statistics had been right, correct. And that was the moment when I decided that I had to write a book. try to bring to the attention of people how an entire population can start to believe in narratives which are completely wrong and how this blind fanatic belief in certain narratives disseminated through the mass media are actually the beginning and the basis of a totalitarian state and how now we are at risk of a new kind of totalitarianism, not a fascist or not the old classical communist totalitarianism,

but a new technocratic and transhumanist totalitarianism led, as Hannah Arendt said, not so much by gang leaders such as Stalin and Hitler, but by dull bureaucrats and technocrats. That's what my book is all about. My book is about this. How can we understand the broader cultural psychological process

that puts it at risk now of ending up in a fully-fledged, technocratic, transhumanist, totalitarian state. Okay. There's a lot packed in there. I know my audience is interested in going further in this conversation about the totalitarianism. I've got a bunch of things on my

mind that you brought up about the reproduction crisis, the reproducibility crisis, and maybe we'll get back to that because I was that the whole notion of a totalitarian government really was a monarchical idea it was sort of a it was an administrative state that sort of reached its apogee with louis the sixth louis the 14th and the jacobins during the french revolution wanted to co-op that and get rid of the monarch and have people on the bottom essentially come up and take over all the bureaucratic structure. That was really their model. And even Lenin pointed out that he relied on the French Revolution for many of his ideas. Are we getting all the way back to that Jacobin idea of, I like you, observe the media as the big problem.

And I lately have been thinking that the enemy is bureaucracy. That's this thing that just doesn't change and can't say it's wrong and can't apologize. And it's clearly what is afoot here. But just historically, are we going back to that original concept, the Jacobins unleashed on Europe? Is that what's coming back here? In a certain respect, it is. But I think we have to really make a careful analysis. We have to really, depending on our analysis, we will choose for a different strategy.

So the analysis of the problem is extremely important. I think that ultimately the root cause of the problem has to be situated in our view on man and the world. Before the French Revolution, the world was the dominant view on man and the world. What was the religious view on man and the world? the religious fuel man in the world. And with the French Revolution, this changed. The dominant fuel man in the world became the so-called rationalist,

materialist fuel man in the world. Starting from then on, people started to consider the entire universe, not so much as the creation of God, but rather as a dead machine, as a set of elementary particles, atoms, molecules, who all interact with each other according to the laws of mechanics and, most important of all, which can be understood completely in a rational way. So, starting from the French Revolution onwards, people started to think about the universe in terms of a mechanical entity that can be perfectly, rationally understood, predicted, controlled, and manipulated. And that actually led to the emergence of a new elite and a new population, which is extremely important. On the one hand, the new elite could no longer impose its will to the population anymore in an overt way.

No, they couldn't start from the assumption anymore that God entitled them to be the leaders of the world and impose their will to the population. So they had to impose their will in a covert way. They had to make sure that the population did what they wanted them to do without the population knowing that they did what they wanted them to do. In other words, they had to manipulate the population. And that's something that is very often forgotten. Like after the French Revolution, after everything you just mentioned, the first institutes of modern propaganda emerged. That's extremely important. Before the French Revolution,

there also was propaganda, but it was of a completely different nature. After the French Revolution, the first institute of propaganda was established in France. It was called Le Bureau d'Opinion Publique. And this new kind of propaganda was first, it was different from everything that preceded it from previous propaganda because one,

it was based on scientific research into mass psychology. Two, it was industrialized. It was based on like an entire industry for disseminating propaganda. And three, it was ideologically justified It was based on an entire industry for disseminating propaganda. And three, it was ideologically justified. From then on, the elite started to believe that it was their ethical duty to manipulate the population. If they did not manipulate the population, society would fall prey to the irrationality and destructiveness of the mass of the population. So they started to behave, to believe that it was an ethical duty to manipulate the population.

And from then on, the importance of propaganda increased year after year. In the First World War, it became, it took a huge leap forward. In the Second World War, it became even more important....in de Tweede Wereldoorlog. Het is nog meer belangrijk geworden. En nu leven we in een publieke ruimte... ...die constant geïnteresseerd is met propaganda... ...zonder dat mensen het weten. Google is geïnteresseerd door de Statendepartement in Amerika. En in het eerste plaats is het een propagandamachine. Propaganda is het art van het focussen op mensen.

Op iets en het houden van iets anders. Propaganda is the art of focusing people's attention on something and keeping the attention away of something else. And that's exactly what Google does. Every time you use Google, every time you have a question and want an answer and use Google, Google will direct you according to a state algorithm to certain results. And it will keep you away of other results. To give you one other example, in 2020, the UN in one year time recruited 110,000 so-called digital first responders, people who have no other function than ridiculizing, psychiatrizing and criminalizing everyone who goes against the UN ideology as it is stipulated in the so-called sustainable development goals. and all the other global institutions recruited also tens of thousands of people who have dysfunction, making sure that people on the internet who go against the mainstream narrative are ridiculized or put in a bad daylight.

And so that's just a few examples to give you an idea of the extent of the propaganda machinery that is active now in public space. So that is one thing. The French Revolution, after the French Revolution, we could see the emergence of a new elite, a new elite which no longer imposed its will in an offered way to the population, but which used propaganda to constantly manipulate the population. Edward Bernays is one of the most important founding fathers of modern

propaganda. Read his book and you will see how in the beginning of the 19th century he exactly explains everything that I'm telling you now. So that was one thing. The emergence of a new elite which used propaganda to impose its will. And then the second thing, which is even more important, I believe, was that starting from the French Revolution onwards, we could see the emergence of a new population.

And that is often forgotten. We have not only seen the emergence of a new elite, also the population changed. The psychological state of the population changed. The psychological state of the population changed in a very particular way. Starting from the beginning of the 19th century, as soon as people started to consider, to think about the universe and about the human being

in a more rationalist way, in a more mechanical way, as if everything is just like a dead machine, as if human beings are only a biochemical phenomenon, as if the soul and the mind doesn't really exist, as if that is all a kind of a perceived consequence of the biochemical process in our brain. As soon as people started to think in this way, I explained that in my book in the first five chapters. I cannot explain it now, but as soon as they started to think about the human being in this way, people started to feel more and more lonely. That's so crucial. As soon as the world was rationalized, industrialized, the more technology that was used, the more people started to feel disconnected from nature, disconnected from their fellow human beings, the more people started to feel lonely.

And this number of people peaked just before the corona crisis, in between 40 and 60% of the population worldwide reported not to have one meaningful relationship at all and to connect to other people only through the internet. That's in Great Britain. Theresa May appointed a minister of loneliness because she recognized how widespread this problem was. And in the U.S., the U.S. Surgeon General declared that there was a loneliness epidemic. And very importantly, the number of lonely people was very highly correlated with the use of technology and the level of industrialization in the country. So that is the basic problem. Our society is falling apart and disconnected, atomized individuals. And starting from there, you can see how spontaneously, as soon as people started to feel disconnected, they also started to struggle with lack of

meaning, making a purpose in life. They started to have a spontaneous experience that their life had no purpose anymore. For instance, just before the corona crisis, up to 60% of the population worldwide reported that they considered their job to be a so-called bullshit job, a job without any meaning. And as soon as you, an individual is in this state, lonely, disconnected, it starts to have very specific emotional, affective experiences. Namely, it starts to be confronted with so-called free-floating anxiety, frustration, and aggression. That means a kind of frustration, aggression, a kind of anxiety, which it cannot connect to something.

It starts to feel anxious, frustrated, and aggressive without knowing what it feels anxious, frustrated, and aggressive for. And once it is in this state, it is in the perfect state to be vulnerable for propaganda. Meaning that starting from the French Revolution onwards, we could see these two evolutions, an elite which used propaganda and the population which becomes extremely sensitive to propaganda. And it is this combination, this what Hannah Arendt, this diabolic pact between the masses and the elite, which leads to mass formation and to totalitarianism. As soon as you have this combination, something very specific happens. But if you're anxious for and someone disseminates through the mass media a narrative that indicates an object of anxiety and a strategy to deal with that object of anxiety, all this free-floating anxiety will connect to the object of anxiety and people will be willing to participate in a strategy to deal with that object of anxiety, for instance,

lockdown to deal with the virus. No matter how absurd the strategy is, they will be willing to participate in it just because they feel in control of their anxiety again. That's the first step. That's the first step of the emergence of every totalitarian state. And it happened exactly in 2020.

A couple of quick follow-ups. Didn't Merleau-Juist come up with this idea also of the fear as the soil for this? Do you know Merleau-Juist? Can you come again? Who are you referring to?

I'm probably mispronouncing it. M-E-E-R-L-O-O-J-O-O-S-T. Yes. He wrote about this. He wrote this wonderful book, Rape of the Mind, which I read. But he doesn't, you know, I think that I was the first one to explain the basic psychological mechanisms. He writes a lot about the phenomena that I described in a very interesting way. And, but I don't think, to my, as far as I know, nobody described the mechanisms that I just described, namely how all this individual psychology connects to the collective psychology, how all this individual anxiety connects to the collective narrative.

But, of course, Mierlo was an extremely important writer about the phenomenon of totalitarianism. He focused more on propaganda itself, I think, than I did. Now, I agree with everything you've said. There's nothing I would disagree with in the least, but I want to know your opinion about adding something to this. And that would be the notion of how propaganda uses envy. Now, you mentioned how the 20th century is really, the notion of how propaganda uses envy. Now, you mentioned how the 20th century is really when you see this stuff come on.

The other thing that was coming on in the 20th century was narcissism. In the 18, you know, around Freud's time, they debated whether narcissism or a narcissistic disorder even existed. It was relatively uncommon. And since then, it's been coming on and it's sort of hockey-sticked up in the 1980s and

90s, I would argue because of all the family destruction and the childhood traumas and whatnot, chronic childhood stress, interpersonal stress. That to me is a perfect setup for the liability of narcissism, which is envy and scapegoating because narcissists do tend to gather and scapegoat. Is, is there a role for understanding this that way as well, or is it just an unnecessary ingredient that may or may not be present? No,

no, no, no, no, no. Narcissism is extremely important in understanding what happened throughout the last two centuries at the psychological level. Definitely.

But in a, in a very complex way. Look, totalitarianism, what you are going through now, is strangely enough exactly the opposite of narcissism. So totalitarianism is extreme collectivism. It means that individuals just are prepared to sacrifice everything for the sake of the collective ideal. For instance, in the COVID crisis, we could see that very clearly. Suddenly, in a very strange way, all these individualist people were willing to sacrifice their health, their wealth, the future of their children, their freedom, everything for this collective ideal of this absurd battle with the virus. Okay. So totalitarianism is extreme collectivism, but

that's a strange thing. This extreme collectivism happens only after a phase of extreme individualism and narcissism. So that's a strange thing. You have this very strange interplay between, first, a society which becomes extremely narcissistic and individualistic too much. So in my opinion, in a healthy society, you have this balance between individualism and collectivism. Like individuals realize that they have to sacrifice a little bit of their freedom for the sake of the group. But which individuals can flourish and can prosper. And in a totalitarian state, this balance gets completely lost.

Like individuals sacrifice everything, or 20 to 30% of the individuals sacrifice everything for the collective. So we could indeed see in the last two centuries that narcissism flourished as it did never before. And in my next book, which is all about the ego, narcissism, truth, and so on, I really focus on that. I really explain why exactly as soon as the rationalist view on men in the world emerged, as soon as the religious paradigm got lost, but narcissism is based on a psychological focus on the outer ideal image. To the extent that we invest our psychological attention and our psychological energy in being identical to our outer ideal image, we are narcissistic. And literally, literally, the more we focus our attention, not so much on our resonating core, but on our outer ideal image on how other people want us to be, the more we isolate from the world around us. So literally, if we invest all our psychological energy

in the surface of our body, in our outer ideal image, we create like a prison for ourselves, an isolation. We get psychologically isolated we lose our capacity for resonance and for empathic for for for empathy we get isolated and it is in this state that we start to feel lonely and it is in this state, strangely enough, that suddenly we fall prey to propaganda, which tells us that we should all fight the same collective heroic battle. With the virus, with Russia, it doesn't matter.

But in this isolated, narcissistic state, we easily fall prey to a narrative disseminated through the mass media, which tells us that we have one collective enemy, a virus, Putin, Russia. It doesn't matter what. That's the state narcissism leads us to. I completely agree. and it's interesting i i came to these similar conclusions just by sitting and thinking about things and watching the last five years but uh i have to take a break and when we get back i want to talk about the solution and what do we do in the face of all this uh i i want to again to add on to something you just said. I happen to believe that my theory is that a lot of this collectivizing, A, because they're narcissistic, they convince themselves that it's going to be their collective.

They're going to be sitting at the apex of the collective and gathering everything from the collective. They'll be the one and only elite, this fantasy of grandiosity, number one. Number two, they have narcissistic rage. And that's a disavowed rage. And one of the ways to manage narcissistic rage is to gather in a mob and scapegoat. What better way than to collectivize in the name of the good? Perfect. The perfect way to do that. Okay.

So we agree on that. So let's take a little break here. This has been absolutely sensational. There's not a word I would argue with. I've got a million questions even about the reproducibility crisis and some of your statistical history and stuff. We're going to have to leave that behind

because there's too much else to talk about. But before I, I mean, we've been reading the same stuff. I assume you read Le Bon, right? And his early studies of crowds. Yeah. I thought he kind of nailed it, even though it was very primitive. And then he got completely crushed in later psychological assessments of his assessment,

which of course, because people are afraid of it he got it right and then thomas coon which is really you know coon's uh assessment of how uh scientific revolution so-called work very much figures into what we're talking about here does it not he does he does of course yes of course yeah and and i, when you refer to Kuhn, I also remember this wonderful quote of Max Planck. I don't know if you know him, the famous physicist who won the Nobel Prize and who said, like, I've never known a scientist, he said, who dropped his theory because it didn't match the facts uh i the only the only reason the only reason why scientists leave their theory is because they die he said uh uh uh science proceeds one one funeral at the time he said that's why i didn't know he said that's really funny well i yeah i mean look at the history of science. People cling to stuff. And it has its own kind of propaganda elements to it. But let's take a little break. When I get back, if you don't mind, Matthias, I want to talk about how we fight this back or

maybe do a little bit of where you think it's going, how to predict the... Because these insights should help us predict where it's going. It also should suggest some, let's call them treatments. So let's get to it after this break. That was emotional. You could spend thousands of dollars and dozens of hours trying to look a few years younger, or you can skip all that and the hassle and go with what works,

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for 10% off all your orders. I'm very excited about these kits. Go to drdrew.com slash TWC. T.S. Desmet, professor of psychology at University of Ghent in Belgium. The Psychology of Totalitarianism is the book, which we've been flashing up here repeatedly. I suggest you get it and read it. It seems like an important read for our time. He received, in 2008, received Evidence-Based Psychoanalytic Case Study Prize of the Association for Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy. And in 2009, received the Wim Trinsberg Prize

of the Dutch Association of Psychotherapy. You can follow him on X at Desmet. Yes, Desmet Matthias. So it's the opposite of his name, Matthias Desmet. And MatthiasDesmet.org is where you can go to find more. And before the break, we were talking about what to do in the face of this extraordinary century that is emerging. And we have, you know, know between us complete and total agreement in

terms of the assessment of what's happening to us uh i uh someone named oceana on our um i think it was rumble rants or youtube uh ask a really interesting question i think a way of backing into this topic of what do we do uh perhaps is by asking the question that Oceana asked, which is what makes someone resistant to the mass formation? Nobody knows. You know, from the beginning of the 90s, you know, you refer to Gustave Le Bon, his famous work, The Psychology of the Crowd, published in 1895. And even in the work of Gustave Le Bon, Gustave Le Bon already mentioned that when a major mass formation emerges,

there is always a set of people who do not fall prey to it like you a lot like usually 80 or something and but but only 20 to 30 percent of the people really fall prey to the mass formation but 75 goes along with it that's the major problem 75 percent is so scared is so scared of this tremendous power of the masses that they just go along with it. And then there's 5% or even less who sees what's happening and who says, look, I have to speak out. I won't remain silent. I won't sit back and do nothing. And he said, these 5%, nobody knows who they are.

Like Hannah Arendt mentions the same in the the origins of totalitarianism she mentions the same like why what characterizes these people who do not go along with the masses is something nobody knows the answer to it's like it's the most heterogeneous group you can imagine it is of all kinds of political orientations or for all kinds of uh economic, all kinds of professions. But I think, I do believe that the only possibility to understand why certain people do not go along with it has to be situated at the level of individual psychology. Like a human being has different options to find psychological strength. And one source of psychological backbone or strength is to identify with the ideal images of the group and to obey to the matrix of social rules. Many people do that.

Many people in their entire lives will just try to do this. They will try to be what the other wants them to be. They will try to behave according to the matrix certain social rules, but if I feel that what the group believes in is really false and true, I will just tell it. And that are the people who have a certain loyalty to truth and to truth speech and to sincerity. And every time we start to speak, or a human being at every moment in his life is confronted with this most fundamental of all choices.

It can choose to speak in such a way that other people approve it and that other people have the feeling that this person who is speaking matches the social ideal image. Or a human being can choose to speak in such a way that it feels sincere. A human being can choose to speak out, to articulate these words that seem sincere and honest to it. If it chooses to speak the truth, it will jeopardize its own existence in the world of appearances.

That means every time we speak the truth, we put ourselves at risk. And also the opposite is true. If we do speak and we do not feel a certain danger, we do not feel a certain anxiety, we do not feel a certain vulnerability, we probably do not speak the truth. Speaking the truth always means speaking in a vulnerable way. Spreken de waarheid betekent altijd spreken in een vulnerabele manier. Het betekent dat je je opnieuw op risico's moet zetten. En het betekent dat je je op risico's moet zetten om iets te verliezen in de wereld van uitzonderingen. In de fake wereld. En zo snel je begrijpt dat je ook iets wint, dat je iets wint in de echte wereld, dan weet je dat de enige goede keuze de keuze voor de waarheid is.

En ik ben er zeker van dat hier de moment waarin we nu leven, een moment is in moment is waarin een metafysieke revolutie in de zin komt. Het is een metafysieke revolutie waarin een massa, die in de hand van propaganda zit, een massapropagandiseerde massa, een historische oorlog speelt met een groep die langzaam begint te ontstaan. Een groep die verenigd is door de gesprek. Dus dat is wat we nu doorgaan. Aan de ene kant zien we massen in de grip van de meest impressive propaganda-machinery die de wereld ooit heeft gezien. En aan de andere kant zien we een groep mensen die in deze wereld van uitzonderingen, in deze wereld van liefde, die wordt gecreëerd door de massen en de propaganda,

begint te worden bewust van de fundamentele belangstuk van waarheid en eerlijkheid. En zo snel als de mensen die dit gevoel hebben met eerlijkheid, worden ze echt verenigd en worden ze energetisch sterker. En de massen in de groep van propaganda, de eeuw era of totalitarianism is over. So, that's our challenge, I think. Staying loyal to the ethical duty to speak in a sincere way, not because we are convinced

that we are the only ones who know the truth, no. Just because we feel that the narratives that seize control of society now are wrong. Just because we feel like, look, there is something wrong with all these narratives. Climate change and the corona crisis and the MeToo narratives and no matter what propagandized narratives. If you feel there is something wrong, just try to articulate what you feel. And don't be too convinced

that you know what the solution to all the problems is, but just speak out. Just say, I feel that there is something wrong with these narratives. And every time you do this, you will feel a certain

vulnerability. You will show something which people usually hide behind their outer ideal image. You will speak from the resonating strings of your embodied soul. And there is a good chance En er is een goede kans dat bepaalde mensen die je luisteren, openen en beginnen met je te resoneren. En dat is de moment waarin je verbinding creëert. En dat is de moment waarin je de root-coase van de transformatie neemt, die ik in de eerste deel beschreven heb. De lonelijkheid, de onafhankelijkheid. The root cause of mass formation, which I described in the first part, this loneliness, this disconnectedness, that's the moment where you contribute to a solution to the problem of totalitarianism. That's the moment where you fight this technocratic, transhumanist totalitarianism that is emerging now. I cannot explain it in a few minutes but it's so clear as soon as you understand it is so clear the remedy for a society sick of propaganda and lies is sincere speech

so it's interesting so so that five percent that you're talking about who i suppose're a part of, already kind of knows this intuitively. It's the people we need to get on board, the lonely people you're talking about who are also prone to the propaganda. We need to promise them connection and meaning, meaning-making by speaking the truth. And you use the word feel a certain way, right? You're going to feel vulnerable and you're going to feel like there's some BS in the narrative. And I do think, again, I'm sitting here trying to think, what is it in that 5% that we can kind of mine in other people? And I do have a strong sense, feeling, that intuition plays a powerful role in this. And you've talked about the bodily-based phenomenology of intuition.

It's not just an embedded brain in a body that gives us our intuition. And some of us have that. And it's interesting, when people I talk to who early saw the excesses of the narrative so-called, they would say, oh, it was BS. I saw the BS. It seemed like bullshit to me, that kind of thing. But how do we get people to, I guess the question I would ask you is, with all that sort of flying around, oftentimes these narratives have a foundation in something true, right? There's something true at the base of it. They just take it and make it hysterical.

It's true. There's a virus. It's kind of dangerous, but they make a hysteria around it. Or it's true that, what was I thinking about? Something else you mentioned. Oh, it's true that climate is moving around and changing, but we don't have to be hysterical about it. It's the hysteria that is the problem. It's the hysteria that is the problem.

It's the mass formation that is the problem. How do we get people to hear their instincts when they are faced with hysteria and that they can understand? Are you still there? Did you freeze? Did I lose Matthias, everybody? No, well, I... Hang on a second. I can hear you, so I want your voice anyway,

so I'm sure the video will kick back in. So what do we do? How do we get people to listen to those instincts that the yes, there's something true there? Yeah, I hear you too. I hear you too. It's okay. We're just going to use your picture.

You look good, though. You do hear me or you don't hear me? Oh, there he is. Yes, I do hear you too. I hear you too. It's okay. We're just going to use your picture. You look good though. You do hear me or you don't hear me? Oh, there he is. Yes, I do hear you perfectly. Okay, there you are. You're back. So how do we get people to listen to those instincts to say, yes, there's some truth in here, but the BS is the narrative quality that's superimposed on top of those truths. You mentioned me too, for instance.

Like, okay, yeah, there's some excesses and things went wrong there, but the excesses are the problem. And people don't listen to their instincts on that or they don't hear them and they don't have them. How do we get them? And I think part of that is promising some sort of connection. We'll connect with you on those instincts

or make meaning with those instincts or something. What do you think? Well, of course, I agree with you. I just referred to this metaphysical revolution, like we are going through a revolution at the mental level, at the psychological level, at the spiritual level now. That's the point. And, you know, essentially, this revolution boils down to this. The last 200 years, we started to believe that rational understanding, as I said in the first part, rational understanding should be the guiding principle of our individual

life and of our collective life. And just because we believe that the entire universe is a rational entity, it can be rationally understood. So we should be as rational as possible and think, rationally decide how we have to live and how we have to live together.

Well, that's an illusion. The guiding principle of society can only be a certain feel with, a certain touch with ethical principles. That's the point. And these ethical principles cannot be articulated in definitive ultimate laws. So we have to use our intuition. We have to feel. We have to feel what is good. And this intuition, I can describe this in an extremely concrete way.

Intuition is resonance intuition means that you feel that that your soul which is situated in your body resonates like an antenna with what is outside of you and what i what what what makes what limits your intuition is your ego. It's your identification. The more narcissistic you are, the more psychological energy you invest in your outer ideal image and in the matrix of social rules, which determines this outer ideal image, the more you isolate your antenna. Of course, it's as logical as it can be so meaning that every time you speak in a sincere way you do something very specific you penetrate with sound literally and words through your outer ideal image you make a little hole in your outer ideal image. And in this way, through this hole, you start to resonate again with the things outside of you. And your intuition improves.

Everyone knew this in ancient times. The samurai culture in Japan knew this. If you want to have the sixth sense of the warrior, you need to be sincere. You need to get rid of your ego. And if you get rid of your ego, you will have this intuition which tells you exactly what to do on the battlefield. You will not need your eyes or your ears. You will feel when an arrow is shot at you from behind you. Intuition is perfectly correlated with sincerity. That's the point.

And in Belgium, I give all these workshops in which I explain all this and in which we exercise in a practical way, through practical exercises, in the art of sincere speech. Sincere speech is an art. You cannot do it just like this. You have to practice it day after day, like Mahatma Gandhi did.

Day after day, you have to practice to grow, to become better. And the art of sincere speech. And in my workshops, I give all these practical exercises doing this. And what you will notice in the first place is this the more the better you get in sincerity the more you succeed in articulating words which go through the world of appearances through your outer ideal image and the more you will feel connected intuitively with everything around you and And that's what we need. That's this metaphysical revolution.

This metaphysical revolution now is that society, which tries to be as rational as possible, but which in the end lapses into complete irrationality. Well, this pseudo-rational society will be replaced by society based on intuition and sincerity and I truly believe that this is what we are going through and I can contribute a little bit to it but we have to do it all together

I feel, my book has been translated in 25 languages or even more, I don't know it anymore. And I'm invited around the world to give book presentations and lectures. And everywhere I notice that people start to become aware, certain people, not everyone, but the group of people who resist this technocratic, rationalist, transhumanism, and they started to become aware, nobody really knows what is going on,

but they all start to feel that there is something about sincerity, that the real challenge in this world is to become more truthful and sincere, and all the rest will follow all the rest will follow if you become more sincere you do not get only more resonant and connected to other people you also get more connected to your own body to your own sexuality to your own drives to your to to the to the world around you and to nature around you.

So truth and sincerity harmonizes all fundamental relationships of the human being with something that is outside of itself. So that's the real challenge. That's the challenge we are facing now. I know what you're saying. I also know i totally i know what you're saying i also know what's embedded in what you're saying there's a lot there and and i hope you will come back and let's have a deep conversation about the let's call it what it is the psychoanalytic principles that that sort of support all this as well as as well as the neurobiological the evolutionary

it's all our ancient past that we are disconnected from that is our most effective, our most genuine, our most accurate aspects. When we take the brain away from the body, everything, we are embedded creatures. Our brain's embedded in a body. Our body's embedded in a family. It's embedded in a societal context,

in a historical context. We are embedded creatures. And I would argue that to get, and this is what I want to talk about next time, to get at that sincere, spontaneous, primary affect, what you're talking about, the intuitive landscape, you need other people. And you've sort of hinted at that.

And I ran a drug treatment center for many, many years, and I used to always, I would just chant at them, connect to other, connect to self, connect to other, connect to self. connect to other, connect to self. If you're disconnected from others, you can't connect to yourself the way I want you to, the way you need to. And I'm a big fan of psychoanalytic,

interpersonal psychoanalytical thought these days. So sort of, and you're hinting at all that. I don't know if you're an advocate or not, but I know what you're talking about. I know, and it's interesting to me that we end up in the same place with all this. So there's a lot to do, as you're aware. There's a lot to do here. And it overwhelms me a bit. I'm so delighted that you're there carrying the torch. I look forward to the new book. I hope that it comes out soon. I think it may be an important ingredient in what you're there carrying the torch. I look forward to the new book. I hope that it comes out soon. I think it may be an important ingredient

in what you're talking about because I've often found too that people need to understand these things before they can kind of dive into them. They kind of have to be convinced that there's something here. I'll let you have last thoughts. I have to wrap up,

but you've been very kind and generous with your time and your thoughts. And you did not disappoint, my friend. And I appreciate you being here. I do hope you'll come back, and generous with your time and your thoughts and i it was you did not disappoint my friend and i appreciate you being here i do hope you'll come back but i want to give you final thoughts i really feel the connection i feel that you that you feel what i'm talking about and we shouldn't talk for one hour we should talk for 100 hours and and or even much more because there is no time enough in the universe to to to to to articulate what what what we feel now and but well my final thoughts well you know indeed i i believe that um you know i've been talking about rationalism um and i'm not against

rationality not at all we i i really i really believe that we have to walk the path of rationality as far as possible. But if you do it in an honest way and in a sincere way, you will see that you, at a certain moment, you reach the limit of rationality. And that's what all seminal scientists reached. We stumble upon the limit of rationality literally, like the sciences of the 20th century literally showed that all complex dynamical systems in nature, which are almost all phenomena in nature, behave literally like an irrational number. Meaning that you cannot grasp their essence through rationality. As Niels Bohr said, the most famous quantum physicist of the 20th century, when it comes to atoms, he said, language can only be used as poetry. As soon as we really understand the value of these words, we get rid of this crisis.

That's the point. Yeah. Like, oh. I get it point I get it I get it and I believe you're right I pray that you're right I instinctively think you're right

but we have to execute I don't mean execute the way the French did I mean execute a response to all this okay well listen believe me if you're in this country or if I'm over there, I would seek an opportunity to spend at least a couple more hours with you

chewing on this material because it is so, so, so important. And it's so interesting to me. Before this all, before the COVID crisis, I used to call it, there's a spiritual problem. I had a sense there's something wrong. Something's a spiritual issue. And now it's kind of coming clear what the issue is.

So thank you. We'll get the book. We'll go to the website and we'll follow you on X and I'll hopefully talk to you soon. Thank you for having me on. It was great

talking with you. Cheers. Well done. Okay. We're going to change gears a little bit. Susan, anything to follow on this?

Anybody have any, you know, questions that you wanted to get at? You still there? Yeah, I'm here. I'm alive. I'm looking at the… I was just thinking, like, I took a course in UCLA about World War I traumatizing all of the…

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The Western world and how Germany came back, failure. And they all turned to Hitler as a leader in totalitarianism based on the fact that they were just so weakened and narcissistic and traumatized. So the trauma that comes out of it, but then the people that go against it, are they more traumatized or less traumatized? It's a really interesting question. I don't know the answer to that. Why do you ask that question? Maybe what's in that question?

I don't know. I took a psychohistory class. It was like my favorite subject. And I just wonder if the alcoholics all turn, or the people that really think and use their intuitive mind and say, yeah, this is not right. I'm speaking the truth.

But are they more like, and then once they're taken over and they feel fear, like the doctors running, who are not willing to say, oh, we maybe made a mistake because they have fear of losing their license or fear of losing their life. There's a fear, just free-floating anxiety. Right. I'm just sort of putting all these weird pieces together. But the trauma is so much a huge part of narcissism. Yes. You're right. Let's you and I talk about it.

I know. I don't know. Because these are ideas that are flying around. I don't disagree with you. I didn't want to bring it up with him. But this is a common thread with history. So I'm wondering what's going to come out of all the trauma that we've had now in the next 10 years or five years.

He, well, let's talk about it. I've got ideas. We'll see. We got to go. Okay. Let's bring you with him now.

That's what we have to answer these questions. Like he said, there's, you wanted to know what I was thinking. I knew he would be like this. But I love intuition. I just knew it. Follow your intuition. And yes, I think that's what people learn from,

which is kind of interesting that you live in that world a bit, you know, of intuition and stuff and how we can bring all these things together. But all right, let's bring our friend Autumn into the conversation from Paleo Valley. As you guys know, we are Paleo Valley fans. We consume so much Paleo Valley stuff.

This is the bone broth that we eat every day. This is the superfood golden milk that Susan has. We just got this again, and Susan was using it. Oh, you're taking a picture of me holding this all up? Taking a video. Taking a video, okay. And, of of course the beef sticks. Now there are new, when I was a carnivore, I really lived on these things. Now I use them as

a snack, an adjunct, and they have a new venison. This is the chicken venison stick. And it is spectacular. I love it. I told Autumn that. So please bring Autumn into the program with us. There you are. Thank you for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm one of your biggest fans and I just really appreciate it. So, well, it's mutual fans to say because we are a fan of your stuff. Tell them again your story about how this all got going and your commitment to these,

you know, the quality of all this and what you're doing there as an organization. Yeah, essentially, I had digestive issues that no doctor knew how to treat since I was about 10 years old. And I resigned myself to the fact that it was just the way I was going to have to live my life. But when I met my husband, and he noticed how much I was suffering every day, he decided to think outside the box, right? And what else could we try? And we tried diet, a paleo template. And in 30 days, all my digestive issues were gone. And over the course of the next year,

my mental health changed to such a degree that I quit a job as a celebrity fitness trainer with Tracy Anderson, went back to school, and we decided that we had to figure out a way to make the nutrient-dense, clean foods that I had been relying upon to improve my health available to the masses because at that time, there really wasn't any sort of super healthy snack options available.

And in particular, let's talk about the bone broth. Thank you for making it taste so great. I know you've got unflavored and you've got vanilla, but we are a nutty cuckoo over the chocolate one here. And not only is it a great source of nutrient and collagen and protein, but I use it kind of as appetite management too. I'm satisfied for a long time after I have just a small amount. And it's low calorie, right? It's a very clean product.

Yeah, absolutely. So we want to be the company that always prioritizes health over profit and also brings back those foods that were restored or revered historically that we're not consuming anymore, like bone broth and making it available to people who don't like the taste of bone broth. So what we did is we just take bones and we use only water as a processing agent. And then we added organic coconut milk powder and organic chocolate and a little organic chocolate flavor. And we created something that's absolutely delicious. A very, a way to get your collagen that you look for.

Um, yeah, that's the new venison, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. They're so good. You guys are making me really hungry.

I know. And so, yeah, and the phone broth, you can drink it with just water, and you can also drink it with almond milk. And the original version, you can put in soups, stews, or smoothies. And as you're speaking to, when you increase the amount of protein you're consuming every day, it triggers a satiety mechanism so that you don't have to eat as much. It's called the protein leverage hypothesis. And a lot of us are actually under eating protein.

And so we can improve our body composition. We can improve our ability to build muscle simply by adding more protein. And when it tastes good, it's a really simple thing to do. And you're actually involved with the sources in terms of the farms and the beef and where this all comes from. Talk to us about that. Yeah, absolutely. So we are committed to health of the consumer and of the planet. And so we do grass-fed and grass-finished. Now, most collagens claim or some of them to be grass-fed, but they're often not grass-finished.

And they don't always come from regenerative farms. So we like to work with partners who are not only not hurting the planet, but are measurably improving ecological outcomes. That's kind of the heart of regenerative agriculture. And so we do work with those farmers and support them. And also, like you said, we don't process it. When you take a hide or a hub, which is where most collagen comes from, you have to use solvents, chemical processing agents. And so we wanted to avoid that and instead just bring something to the market that was literally bone and then water from American regenerative farmers or regenerative farmers using methods in other countries as well.

And Autumn, I don't think you described this time as clearly as I heard last time, your training in nutrition and how you came to understand so many of these, you know, the science behind what you're doing, I guess, why you're someone that we should, you know, you're a nerd on this stuff. You like this stuff and you got deep into it. I am too. So join me in this. I appreciate it. Yeah. I went back to school. I originally got my master's and I'm probably about a month away from getting my doctorate and it's in holistic nutrition. And I am fascinated, constantly fascinating. I read journal articles upon journal articles about how we can bring back these foods that modern society has lost touch with and what their benefits are like fish roe, organ meats, right? Bone broth.

There are a plethora of benefits to these foods that most people don't realize. And also our nutrient content of our food supply is lower than at any other time in history. And so we're trying to figure out how do we bring that back so people can actually experience the vibrant health that they were about to experience. And yeah. I love that. I gotta tell you, I am very concerned about that.

Robert F. Kennedy has been talking about it. I mean, people who are waking up to how miserable our food supply is and all the, just the nasty stuff we put in our body. Even the stuff we attempt to pay attention to can be not so great just because, and I would argue, I think it is the case that not only are we sort of deficient in terms of the food we're consuming, but our soil's deficient. And so we're not even creating, we try to create foods that are up to a good standard. We have trouble

doing so. And is that something unique to this country? No. You know what? I think we've lost about one third of farmable land in the last 40 years. And so as long as we've been practicing agriculture, we have been depleting our soil at a significantly faster rate than it is able to be built. And then we have our animal agriculture industry built on factory farms, which are further degrading the soil. We have these separate entities. We have monocultures and we've taken the animals out of agriculture. So then we have to add fertilizers and chemicals which further degrade that soil biology. So, no, this is happening worldwide. And that is exactly why we want to work with specifically American regenerative farmers, because even 80% of the

grass-fed beef in America is imported. And so we need, as we've learned with the pandemic, we need to create food sovereignty. We need to create systems and small family farms that can recreate the soil health that we're going to need for future generations to be able to nourish themselves. And so when you think about regenerative egg, it's not only not hurting the land, it's literally making it better, rebuilding that topsoil so that we all can nourish ourselves and our future generations. It's a very important. I always say, I always say if people want to understand why one of the, not just the products, I love the products because they're tasty and wonderful and nutritious stuff. But I keep saying, talk to Autumn Smith if you want to know why I'm enthusiastic about this company.

Please just put her on. That's why we're talking today. I just put her up on that. Let her talk and you'll understand why we're such enthusiasts. I mean, it's odd to me that the whole conversation I had with my last guest was about connecting to these primitive intuitions

that humans have been forsaking for a long time. Women are good at it. You are better at it than we are, that's for sure. But this is another part of that same story of this sort of disconnecting and the sort of not being aware of, even intuitively aware, of what we should be aware of in terms of how we nourish ourselves and how we deal with one another and how we feel, how we have spontaneous feelings and how we connect. It really is all this stuff is about connecting to the world at large, the system, the ecosystem.

Absolutely. And Will Harris from White Oak Pastures, he's one of my favorite regenerative farmers, and he made it so clear that humans were the first ones to come in and break those cycles of nature, right? And we have been doing for thousands of years, right? Disconnecting, believe we are separate from nature. But when we choose and support regenerative agriculture, we become part of that system again. And I think that's exactly what we need, like your other guest was saying, just to move forward. Yeah. It's not really going backwards. It's not like, oh, we need to farm the way Cro-Magnon. No, no, no. We can do, with all that we know, we can do it in such a way we're

not disconnected and it is better and it's more nutritious And well, listen, I want everyone to go to doctor.com slash paleo valley and you will not be sorry. This is, I don't have language to encourage people to eat it every day. There's certain things that should be part of people's daily routine and particularly things like this product. It just, I mean, we, you know, I'm always chanting. I have a lot of elderly patients and I I'm like, protein, protein, protein. You got to get adequate protein.

And these are great sources of it. Our friend Kat Timp was using it to gain weight. She gained 10 pounds because I gave her a bag. And she always has a hard time gaining weight, but she's gained 10 pounds. And she still looks way too thin. She thinks that it's the bone broth. And also, Caleb said that it's great for gamers because it doesn't get crumbs in your gaming boards.

Yeah, yeah. This is very easy to eat. It's perfect for while I'm producing. I mean, look what I'm eating right now. I'm eating a munching on one as we're talking about it. And I'm just waiting for my venison ones to arrive at some point because every time you talk about it, Drew, it makes me hungry. I know, I know. They're really good.

But I just see you eating this thing and I want to say something to people who are my age. This is not a space food stick, everybody. The space food stick was the opposite of this. This is real food. This is real food from real beef, real venison. And it's carefully

manufactured by Autumn and her team. And you can rely on it. And so we're here supporting her as best we can. So is there anything else you want to say before we wrap this thing up, Autumn? Well, I think that one of the interesting things about our beef sticks is it's fermented rather than using typical, you know,

encapsulated citric acid, which is made from GMOs and hydrogenated oils. We ferment them like, and that's what gives them that very unique flavor profile too. So we just are so grateful for your support and your enthusiasm. And so thanks for letting me be here. Well, we appreciate having you.

And I hope everyone that listens to us, we'll get behind autumn and, uh, pay their value and make it routinely part of their life. It should be, this is not something you should do just once. This should be something that you're you're engaged with it certainly i subscribe for 20 off i we would have a major major major loss if you somehow stop producing some of this

stuff i'm not kidding it would be deeply disturbing to us so don't stop and also they have no huge line of other products all right good what's that they have a huge line of other products that you can you can get like's that? They have a huge line of other products that you can get. Like we have the beef tallow. Show them that. Oh, yeah. We have a tallow. I'm using that instead of butter. This is a new thing.

And if you want, you know, we interview, I don't know if you know Shanahan, Dr. Shanahan. Oh, Lee Shanahan. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And she was one of the first to make me aware that we should be using more tallow and butter and certainly less of the vegetable oils and seed oils, all the things that are giving us cancer and God knows what else.

And here's the superfood. Wait, I have one more thing people are going to love. If you look on this, you can pronounce all of the ingredients on this label of these products. That's right. That's how you know it on this label of these products. That's right. That's how you know it's delicious and real. No, that's right. We're sounding like we're getting a little preachy.

I worry. No. Because I'm eating it right now. I'm literally eating it right now. And it's going straight to my brain. It's filling me up with protein right now. We are very fortunate to be genuinely enthusiastic about the people we work with and you guys are not the exception.

So let's leave it at that. We want our listeners to be healthy. We do. And well, what better partner than somebody who puts health over profit, which is these guys. And so they're the perfect partner for us.

All right, Autumn. Well, hopefully, let's bring you back again soon. As I keep saying, if people have any questions about Panty Riley, just listen to Autumn Smith for a couple minutes. She'd make a great co-host. Yeah, yeah. We should do something about it.

No, we should do some nutritional stuff or something. We should do something. That's actually a really good idea. In her free time. Yeah. Dr. Drew, I would be honored. I would love to do that. And like I said, I'm almost done with my really important stuff right now. So that'd be great. And we have no intention of ever stopping

with this company. We come up with product ideas every single week. Fantastic. And have you determined what your thesis is going to be yet? Do you know what your doctorate is going to be? Yes, I'm going to actually present next weekend. And so I am lucky enough to be part of the Beef Nutrient Density Project with Dr. Ben Vliet. He's the head researcher and then working with the Bionutrient Food Association and the Bionutrient Institute with Dan Kittredge. And they are defining nutrient density of beef from different production systems. So is grain-fed beef different nutritionally than grass-fed beef beef and are there advantages of using diverse agroecological principles essentially rotational grazing regenerative egg are there benefits above

and beyond grass fed from using these principles and so we're cataloging in over 100 north american farms and to find that out but pretty interesting results so far we know there's higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids a better profile of's higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids, a better profile of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids, and certain elements or certain minerals are elevated like calcium and iron. And so the data will be pouring in for the next year, but I'm pretty excited about it. I wonder if C15 is up in those products. That'd be interesting to see too. All right. Well, listen, congratulations on all this and congratulations on your thesis. And we will talk to you soon, no doubt. Okay.

Thanks, Dr. Joe and Susan. Thank you. Dr. Joe.com. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com.

Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com.

Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com.

Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. Thank you, Dr. Joe.com. And all right. So I need to go get more coffee and put my bone broth in it, which is what I'm looking forward to doing right now. You have to try the superfood golden milk.

It's got turmeric and mushrooms. Oh, I forgot to ask you about the lion's mane. I wanted to ask about that. Yeah, it's got lion's mane in it. I've been reading about that lately. I'm persuaded that's a very good nutrient to supplement. Well, throw that in your coffee too. I mixed them together the other day.

I'm going to do that right after this. I promise I will do that. Okay, so I'll wrap this thing up. It's been a very sort of almost emotional show for me. Let me quickly- Yeah, that was a good one. Yeah. Let me quickly look at- Somebody on Rumble said that almond milk is bad for you. There are issues with almond milk. Why don't you tell me? I drink it every day. Because you love it. I didn't want to... It's not... The issues are not... This is how you're going to kill me?

No, no, the issues are not. Oh, now we are. They're not that big. They're not that bad. I mean, it's not like I'm worried about it. I know the coconut milk is okay though, right? And by the way, most of it is sort of metabolism killer stuff. You know what I mean?

It's like, you don't have to really worry about it. Well, I saw Vince said something about almond milk, but I didn't click on the link because I wanted to ask him myself. Drew, the thing about people talking about you something about almond milk, but I didn't click on the link because I wanted to ask myself. Drew, the thing about people talking about you tasting raw milk live on a stream, that's because yesterday when we rated Viva Fry's stream, that's what they were talking about, was that case. And so they now want you to try raw milk live on a camera at some point. That's how we're going to kill you. The issue in that interview with issue wasn't that I want,

the issue in that, that interview with Barnes was not that I wanted raw milk. I wanted people to be at their Liberty to produce it and go get it. If that's what they want to do, as long as they understand the risk benefits of that. So that's all. All right, let's wrap this up. I've got, I got other stuff I got to get to. And so to Susan, we appreciate you being here. We back on our normal time tomorrow, tomorrow. This is, this is an insane week, by the way. Yeah, there you go. Mike Benz and Anthony Brown coming in. Anthony Brown is setting up a homeless shelter.

Homeless, really, you'll see. Nirvana, homeless Nirvana in Ohio. Anthony himself was homeless and drug addicted and selling drugs and is a wonderful recovering person now, a nurse and a nurse manager. Mike Benz will put all this together for us in terms of how the blob is sort of behind some of this stuff that Desmond, Matthias Desmond was talking about today.

Salty Cracker, Nami Wolf, look at that list. Look at that lineup. Mike Van Blendel, John Trump Jr. It's going to be an interesting couple weeks coming up. So do stay with us. We'll see you tomorrow for Mike Benz, three o'clock Pacific time, right here. Ta-ta. couple weeks coming up. So do stay with us. We'll see you tomorrow for Mike Benz, three o'clock Pacific time, right here.

Ta-ta. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me, call 911.

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