Ask Dr. Drew - NIH Official Admits US Taxpayers Funded Gain Of Function Research At EcoHealth Alliance & Wuhan Institute Of Virology w/ Jeffrey Tucker & Auron MacIntyre – Ask Dr Drew – Ep 362

Episode Date: May 26, 2024

• PDS DEBT is offering a free debt analysis. It only takes thirty seconds. Get yours at https://PDSDEBT.com/DRDREW • Jeffrey Tucker calls it a “permanent class of administrative overlords” – unelected bureaucrats who make major government decisions behind-the-scenes, without fear of losing voter support. This US “Administrative State” often leads to bad results. In a stunning testimony, NIH principal deputy director Lawrence Tabak (who was not elected) finally admitted to Congress that American taxpayers funded gain of function research at the Wuhan Institute Of Virology and EcoHealth Alliance – but claims the research was “generic”, “not regulated” and poses “no threat or harm to anybody.” This appears to be in direct conflict with recent statements by EcoHealth Alliance president Dr. Peter Daszak, who told the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic that his organization “never has and did not do” gain-of-function research. Jeffrey A. Tucker is Founder and President of the Brownstone Institute. He is also Senior Economics Columnist for Epoch Times, author of 10 books, including Liberty or Lockdown, and thousands of articles in the scholarly and popular press. He speaks widely on topics of economics, technology, social philosophy, and culture. Follow him at https://x.com/jeffreyatucker and https://brownstone.org/ Auron MacIntyre is a host and columnist at The Blaze. He is the author of “The Total State: How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies”. Find more at https://auronmacintyre.substack.com/ and follow Auron at https://x.com/auronmacintyre 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors  • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at https://drdrew.com/paleovalley • TRU NIAGEN - For almost a decade, Dr. Drew has been taking a healthy-aging supplement called Tru Niagen, which uses a patented form of Nicotinamide Riboside to boost NAD levels. Use code DREW for 20% off at https://drdrew.com/truniagen • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Get an extra discount with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew • COZY EARTH - Susan and Drew love Cozy Earth's sheets & clothing made with super-soft viscose from bamboo! Use code DREW to save up to 30% at https://drdrew.com/cozy • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician with over 35 years of national radio, NYT bestselling books, and countless TV shows bearing his name. He's known for Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Teen Mom OG (MTV), The Masked Singer (FOX), multiple hit podcasts, and the iconic Loveline radio show. Dr. Drew Pinsky received his undergraduate degree from Amherst College and his M.D. from the University of Southern California, School of Medicine. Read more at https://drdrew.com/about Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

orin mcintyre joins us after a few minutes here he's the host and columnist at the blaze author of the total state how liberal democracies become tyrannies uh we were first however be joined by jeffrey tucker founder president of the brownstone institute he has a review coming out of aaron orin's book and we will get into that uh jeffrey is also a senior economics columnist for epic times author of 10 books including liberty or. He has an interesting article out on X right now, which is, I forget the title of it, essentially the real meat, oh, Lockdowns Until Vaccine. That is what we're going to talk about, which is sort of what they were up to. And yet I think we had to break through our own denial to really admit that they were doing something quite so extreme and dumb brownstone.org also jeffrey tucker on x and uh aaron you can find

a-u-r-o-n mcintyre m-a-c-i-n-t-y-r-e be right back after this our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f*** sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician.

I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. You can spend thousands of dollars and dozens of hours trying to look a few years younger, or you can skip all that and the hassle and go with what works, GenuCell skincare. GenuCell is the secret to better skin.

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plus free shipping. That is GenuCell.com slash Drew, G-E-N-U-C-E-L.com slash D-R-E-W. As I said, Aaron McIntyreyre be in here just a couple of minutes the aaron mcintyre show and orin is spelled a u r o n substack is aaron mcintyre dot substack dot com and of course x is at orin mcintyre jeffrey tucker is jeffrey tucker dot me and at jeffrey tucker on x and the book is Life After Lockdown, Liberty or Lockdown as well. Please welcome someone we enjoy very often on this program, which is Jeffrey Tucker from the Brownstone Institute. Brownstone.org also is where you can find Jeffrey.

So Jeffrey, let's start with that little article you pushed out on X today, which was lockdowns till vax. And how that was something that I think we'd all heard, but I'm thinking about it now. I suspect we are a little bit of denial about it. Could they be that dumb? Could they have a policy that kind of extraordinarily problematic, let's say?

Well, or audacious. Nothing like this has been said in human history. And don't forget it was on a global level, right? So it's the next level. Crazy. You're going to drive down seroprevalence levels to be as low as possible, not for two weeks, but for 10 or 11 months through forced human separation. In order to prevent, here's the key, you have to stop the pandemic

from ending if your plan is for the mRNA technology to ride to the rescue and save everybody. Okay, that seemed to be the plan. And my story begins with the lab leak because this was a U.S.-funded lab, bioweapons lab, probably. And they're playing with gain-of-function research. There's a lab leak. They hear about it sometime in late 2019. We don't know the exact date.

There's evidence that they knew about it from October from the Olympics, from the military Olympics in Wuhan. And lots of soldiers were sick, so they know about it. And it's like a potential catastrophe for Fauci, for NIH, but also for the Wellcome Trust and Jeremy Farrar, and for the entire biodefense, bioweapons industry, which is massive and largely secret and has labs all over the world.

So, you know, if a lab leak is the cause of a global pandemic, let's just say that's a problem. But would it not also be true that given that they knew that there was so much gain-of-function, dangerous gain-of-function research going on, that maybe they had, I don't want to say fantasies, but concerns that this was far worse than anybody could imagine, and they weren't sure? No question about it. But they wildly overestimated the fatality rate of this thing. So they were concerned that many millions were going to die.

Or like when Trump said one press conference, life will not be normal. People will be dropping dead in front of you and so on. And a lot of CCP propaganda pouring out in January seemed to confirm that. So, yeah, they were panicking. The World Health Organization was talking about CFRs of 3% and 4%. And I think that got dialed back a little bit over the coming weeks. So by the time that Fauci testifies in Congress in, I think it was late February, he's saying, oh, it's bad.

It's probably not 3% or 4%, he says. And when he said that, everybody in the room just kind of froze. Because they don't know what a CFR is, right? They don't know the difference between CFR and IFR. They just thought, okay, there's 100 senators,

so that means four of us are going to be dead. That's what they thought. Anyway, Fauci says it's probably not going to be that, but it's going to be 10 times worse than the annual flu, which still sounds terrible. Yeah. But still not worth destroying the world over from a risk-reward standpoint.

This is the part that... It's still not worth that. And like, Francis Collins has now said this. He didn't, they, it was one like, Francis Collins has now said this. He didn't, they, it was one thing, uber Alice, stop this virus,

no concern for the impact of the measures of the non-pharmacological measures they were taking. That's right. Dr. Drew, let's go back just slightly. So,

there seems to be three steps here, right? So, the first step is deny the lab leak, which they got busy doing right away. And so, okay, call up some of our paid intellectuals to generate a paper, which they did in a phone call late January.

And then the paper comes out like a week later. Oh, it was not a lab leak. This is of zoonotic origins coming from a wet market. You know those weird Chinese, they eat weird stuff all the time. So somebody ate something terrible, and then now we've got to... So that solves that. And also going to the media

and saying anybody who says anything else is a conspiracy theorist. So that was already settled. But then Fauci or somebody says, look, don't forget these labs that come up with not just the problem, but also the solution. We have the virus, true, that's bad, but we also have the antidote. So let's get to work on that and distribute it to the population. And also keep in mind, we've been working for 20 years on these special delivery systems, mRNA technology delivered

through lipid nanoparticles. We've not been able to get it through regular regulatory means. That's not been approved. But if we can get this, what's called an emergency use authorization, then we can get it basically pre-approved by the military itself, bypassing the FDA entirely. They'll just put a rubber stamp on it. That will give us all the necessary indemnifications.

And then we'll get the population entirely inoculated. And we'll go from villains to heroes. You see how the thinking goes here? I mean, we're going to be in big trouble. By the way, and Farrar basically admits this in his book. He says that they went to burner phones, that they were warning their loved ones that if they wake up, you know, if they're shot dead,

you know, that they're having sleepless nights and having secure phone calls on military channels and things like this. I mean, like, why would you do this if it wasn't? And Farrar says, we were worried it was a lab leak. Well, it turned out not to be true. Okay, yeah, sure. So they believed it was a lab leak, but they said, don't worry, we've got the antidote.

And they started work on that in January. Now you've got a third problem, which is the speed of release. So vaccines have usually taken 15 or 20 years through regular channels. They didn't have that kind of time. It certainly couldn't happen in two weeks, but that's what they started with. We'll go with the two weeks to flatten the curve, flatten the curve, because hospitals would get overcrowded. Forget that the hospitals are empty all over the country.

We have to flatten the curve, and we have to slow the spread. At the time, it was very strange, because I kept asking myself, why do we have to slow the spread. You know, at the time, it was very strange because I kept asking myself, why do you want to slow the spread? I'd be like, we're just waiting for herd immunity to arrive. Herd immunity comes about through exposure and upgraded immune systems. That's how every single pandemic in the history of humanity has ended. Why did these people want to prolong the pain? Every time I heard slow and sped, I kept hearing prolong the pain.

And the pain was real. Okay, so the pain involved forced human separation. You can't have house parties. You can't have weddings. You can't have funerals. We're going to have to cancel Easter and Thanksgiving and also Christmas and now Easter again and probably Thanksgiving again. So, like, draconian stuff.

A lot of it was pure theater. So, plexiglass in front of the merchants, closing small businesses because, you know, if people go into small hardware stores, they're going to be standing too close together. But if they go into Home Depot, then they can stand far apart. This is how primitive their thinking was. So, we'll make everybody miserable. You can't go to the beach. So locked inside.

And then the masks come along. And it's like, okay, masks don't really work, but they're good sort of separation theater, pandemic theater. The main goal is to preserve the immunological naivety of the population so that people will be prepared for and clamoring and demand for the shots, the mRNA shots will arrive, solve the pandemic,

and we'll have a new product and a new platform technology that'll be useful for every other human malady you can imagine forever. Then we'll finally have what we've wanted, which is subscription service. Now, this is pretty weird. As part of this, too, you had to get rid of other antivirals and normal therapeutics. Because in February, we were hearing about how a lot of doctors were saying,

people like you, were saying, look, based on the data I'm seeing here, this doesn't look like entirely different from a normal respiratory virus, maybe a little more severe. But we've dealt with these things in the past. We've got ivermectin. We've got hydroxychloroquine. we know the vitamin D works, we've got zinc and, you know, depending on your immune profile, doctors have the tools to deal with this. This is what was being published in February in places like Psychology Today and for that

matter, the New York Times and even the Washington Post. I mean, there wasn't a sense of panic in the air. There's a lot of details here. There was a junket to Wuhan where the UK... Yeah, that was a brainwashing. That was a brainwashing campaign for sure.

If you remember, Michael Sanger wrote the book uh snake roll science where you see the this is the graph achieved in wuhan up a little bump and then no more cases once they locked down which was total other bs there it is there's the the graph that yellow line was that's total bs that was the local communist leaders trying to impress their supreme leader and they had better do so or else so they just published what they needed to and the italians picked it up next and it was the italians that thought it turned out that guy wrote a book that local leader

in uh it wasn't tuscany where was this in lombardy or whatever and and he was so impressed with chinese government functioning and policy, he wanted to show how great that system was. That's why he put lockdowns in, not to prevent the virus, not with an anticipation of a vaccine. I think though, Jeffrey,

the experience in New York City got people, that's where the panic really hit. And most of the panic, most of the imagery that really resulted in the panic was the crowding into the ers for a couple of weeks which is again that was to suppress that wave in other cities which probably wouldn't have happened but okay and then the idea of there being refrigerators outside of hospitals did you ever hear why those refrigerating for for the for the deaths that were accumulated did you ever hear why the refrigerators outside of hospitals. Did you ever hear why those refrigerating for the deaths that were accumulated? Did you ever hear why the refrigerators were?

You know why? Yeah, I'm profoundly aware. I mean, all the coroner's offices were closed. That's one thing. That's right. Everything, all the funeral parlors, you couldn't bury anybody, you couldn't go to the coroner, you couldn't go to funeral, nothing. You had to leave them in the hospital. And guess what? They accumulated. That was it. It was not that there was such a massive death rate. It was that they couldn't move them along in the usual procedure. That's right. And by the way, that happened like two weeks after lockdown.

So we need to keep the timeline straight because like Fauci has often said, we had to lock down because of refrigerator trucks. Okay, that doesn't work. It was a fortnight after the lockdowns when the refrigerator trucks were all over the media. And it was also because people didn't want to touch the bodies, right? I mean, so there was this impression, medieval style impression, that if you touch the body of a dead person, you're going to get the bug. And it was drawn from Hollywood and human instinct and other things. There's no

truth to it. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that it sounds crazy. The purpose was not public health. The purpose was the purpose was to and it's crazy when you think about it, that they wanted a lockdown until the vaccine. And they figured that the vaccine was going to come much later in the year, October, November, December.

And then at some point it became political, like, let's just release this after the election, you know, which we know that Fauci delayed the release of the vaccine until after the election on purpose. I mean, he delayed it by two weeks and sent Moderna and Pfizer back to trials because he was unconvinced. But the point is that it wasn't to make the population healthier. It was to forestall the population from getting healthier in anticipation that the vaccine would come along and save the day and be celebrated as a great savior.

And everything else follows from that. Now, the reason I wrote the article is that I was on the phone, I guess, last week with one of the people investigating all this stuff. And there's so many threads at work here. You know, we've got big pharma involved. We've got big tech. We've got the media censorship piece. We've got this weird political thing going on. You know, the sister of Rod Rosenstein,

who was forced to fire James Comley as FBI director in 2008. His sister was the first CDC employee who went to the media and panicked about the coming lockdowns without ever asking the Trump administration. That's when the New York Times went to print on February 27th with a disease panic. There's a lot of weird things going on, but there's too many threads. And so, you know, the question is, what is the dominant theme here? And what are all the ancillary grifters

that came along from the streaming platforms to Amazon to DoorDash and, you know, and the censorship industry and all the rest of it. So the purpose of my writing the article is to give people who are looking at this thing a single theme. And I think there's a tremendous amount of evidence for the fact that they, and you mentioned the comment by Francis Collins that they forgot about everything else.

You know, it was just focused on the back side. So that's evidence. But, you know, the slow the spread, the flatten the curve is evidence and so on. But as I finished the article, I remembered this phone call I got from Rajiv Venkaya. Okay, so he calls me in April of 2020 saying, you need to stop writing about lockdowns. It's kind of embarrassing. It's, you know, you're one of the few people who's even objecting to this. Everybody else is, you know, fully on board with this.

You need to stop this. And I said to him, I said, okay, Rajiv, just keep in mind who this is. This is the guy who headed the biodefense chair with George W. Bush in 2005 and 2006. And the guy who claims credit for having invented pandemic planning. And then he went from that position to being head of vaccines at the Gates Foundation, went from there to starting a vaccine company. And I was a little startled to get a phone call from the guy. I was like, oh, you're Rajiv Venkayo.

You're the man. And I said, Rajiv, look, I have a very sincere question for you. Look, I know you object to my writings and whatever. You're a convinced lockdown guy. Fine. But I have a question for you. Answer me this. Keep in mind, this is April 2020.

And the vaccine wasn't really on the radar. I guess there was some talk about it. But I was mostly going at it because I knew that you can really viably vaccinate against a fast-mutating, fast-spreading coronavirus in the middle of a pandemic that had never been done before. Even if you could, by some

miracle, it's going to take 15 years to develop something like that and test it so that it's safe and effective so you could roll it to the whole population. So I knew. So it wasn't even anything I took seriously. And I said to him, Rajiv, just answer me one question. If you lock down the whole population and, I don't know, the virus gets scared,

you're like, wow, this Fauci guy is really outsmarted me. These people are pretty clever. I'm outside. They're hanging pretty clever. I'm outside. They're hanging around inside. I went inside. Then they hung around outside. Like, I can't, you know, I tried to get the guy, but he was sitting down.

And then he stood up when I knew I could get him. He had a mask on. Okay, so, you know, I knew that this was all just tomfoolery. So I said to Rajiv, I said, you know, just to answer me this, where does the virus go? Like it's moved to another planet, gets sick of Earth, because we're too smart, jumping a hole in the ground, just demoralized.

Where does it go? And there's this long pause on the phone, and he says, you'd be surprised. We're going to vaccinate and drive the R0 down to below one. And I said, you're going to come up with a vaccine that's going to take 15 years? We're going to stay locked down for 15 years? What are you talking about?

And he goes, you'll be surprised. We're going to get it much sooner than you expect. I said, okay, but. And I remember the rhetoric around, you'll never shake hands again. And humans need to get used to being separated for all this garbage. And it begs the issue,

which we sort of put in our promotion for today about the the sort of the permanent class of administrative overlords i think are your words who beg no uh concern for duly elected officials i i've heard this uh i've got there's a there's a paul alexander uh clip going around on social media that we put out where he was explicit that they were bragging about this fact, that they are the ones in charge, they are the ones making decisions. These people that are elected are just unwitting dupes. And what do we do? How did that happen?

I guess we're going to talk to Orrin about that. And what do we do about it? Well, and this is new for most Americans. And Max Tarr will tell us more about this, but we've lived most of our lives thinking that the people we vote into office are our rulers. Or representing us. Forget the rulers.

They're representing us. And that there's this now middle bureaucracy that doesn't care about the will of the people. That's insane. Yeah. And most Americans didn't know anything about it because we read the Constitution. There's no fourth branch. There's just, you know, judiciary and executive. But there's this whole thing called the administrative state, which is plugged under the executive branch, has autonomous power that cannot be controlled by and is not being controlled by the president

we mostly i would say that most americans have lived most of their lives without ever really having been introduced to this maybe if you get auditors not not no i agree oh maybe the irs but that's it yeah they seem to be doing the will of the government. Yeah, you're annoyed by having to go to the driver's license bureau or something like that. But it's not that they've been that big a deal. Unless you're in business, you're having to deal with the Department of Labor or you're a real estate developer, you're having to deal with the EPA.

You know, that kind of stuff. Oh, you have the clip? Yeah, I have the clip. Let me play this clip for you. Yeah, I want to play this clip for you, Jeffrey,, that kind of stuff. Oh, you have the clip? Yeah, I have the clip. Let me play this clip for you. Yeah. Yeah, I want to play this clip for you, Jeffrey, because it's pretty dramatic.

I'll set it up. You know, he was, because of how he looks and sounds, they assumed he was not from the administration at the time, that he was one of them. And so they started including him in on their behind-the-scenes behavior, backstage behavior. And this is what he learned. I was the only academic scientist in the HHS in that building during COVID. It was held for me from the deep state. And there was every effort to support Trump.

President Trump would have occasions where he would invite the staff to his Trump Hotel in Washington. So on one of those invitations, I went there, I was with Dr. Scott Atlas, and we were hanging around talking with other people. And there were these people from the State Department. And one of them told me something that surprised me. They said to me bluntly, they said,

President Trump is only visiting here. He's only a visitor. The protest is a visitor. We run things here. We, the administrative state, run America. He might be here for four more years, which he was not, but then

he's gone. We live here. We run this thing. And that made it clear to me the situation. I'm a moderate. I don't care who it is. I just don't like the idea that public servants don't serve the public will. That is

disgusting. So there you go. That's my feeling about it. Jeffrey, you sound like this was shocking to me when he said this. But you say, there it is. That's just so. Yeah. Well, right. And truth is, this has been going on for many, many decades. I used to be good friends with Jack Kemp when he headed the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

And he was introduced to this to himself because he thought he was going to be the head of the department, right? A political appointee. Well, I'm in charge of everybody here well the employees just ignored him um they replaced the old picture with a new picture and otherwise nobody cared and uh he had he had a devil of a time i think he was there three years in a college but essentially nothing but you know the funny thing about this is like i knew this i guess intellectually but but to see this hither swarms of bureaucrats really take over the country, impose one-way grocery aisles, plexiglass, you know, in front of every merchant's face, force everybody into masks, and then be deployed on the population in general

to give them injections of an experimental technology that had never been tested as safe and effective, that turned out to not really work, was a shock. And I think it shocked many Americans, right? And it shocked, actually, frankly, conservatives. This is why I think McIntyre's book is so important. Because they didn't really understand the power of the administrative state or what we now call, now it's often called the deep state. Well, there's two levels, right?

There's the civilian bureaucracy and the deep state is really the security bureaucracy. It's good to distinguish between those two things. And both were involved very intimately in COVID. So it introduced the COVID experience, the lockdowns experience, introduced us into a new layer of public management that we didn't know existed. And it raises other questions like, who put these people in charge? Well, listen, it just seems to me that it just got so big and the elite got so ensconced that that's just what happened i don't think that it was a conscious thing or that anybody marched to those jobs with the expectation that they

should be you know not serving the will of the people they may have been very ideal i may be idealizing their ideas what they were going to do at the beginning but clearly they've lost track of that let's let's do this let's bring orin in McIntyre, and we'll talk about his book. I feel like there was one other thing I wanted to say about the – well, let me just say this one thing. Go ahead. Did we cover the whole lockdown of the vaccinate thing? Because there's several holes in my theory, by the way.

One is that the vaccines didn't work, and there seemed to be a lot of evidence from the very beginning they wouldn't work. Yeah. And so why would you push by didn't work? And I mean, what I mean is it didn't stop infection or spread. So it can't have ended the pandemic. And so why would you put everything into something that was so sketchy?

I'm not sure there's a very compelling answer to that, except growing out of just the deep investments in mRNA technology that they thought in the future would be good. Also, Jeffrey, by that point, the hysteria was in full swing, and the ability to have any scientific discourse was completely gone. And as soon as a leader said, justeth the lord it works it prevents transmission remember all that rhetoric around you know it got crazy and they didn't even bother to look at the data they were just involved in their rhetorical hysterical outburst so yeah it became we're gonna bring a bit of a religion i think that's true you know they just they had to believe 100 yeah 100 well it was dangerous not to dangerous not just from the standpoint of you're going to kill grandma and everybody else.

It's that you're going to lose your job. You're going to lose your status. It just was hysteria, concerns, and fascinates me as much as anything. I mean, this is what outrages me. would let an entire population languish in closed schools, unemployment, ill health, drunkenness, drug addiction, denial of meetings, separation from family, separation from loved ones, all to promote a new pharmaceutical product? I mean, like, that is unbelievable. If you had told me 10 years ago that there would be… And by the way, Dr. Drew, and I know you want to move on to Oren, that's good. But this is also why the attack on J&J happened in the spring of 2020,

because it was not an mRNA technology, and they wanted it to stop competing. So you see how this explains everything? Like, J&J was a one-shot and done, but it was not mRNA. So suddenly, well, I think this is giving us blood clots. And you notice now

with all the vaccine injury stuff, they're trying to scapegoat AstraZeneca, which is also not an mRNA technology. So it actually- And yeah, I agree. I think that's what was happening. But by the way, that was normal behavior vis-a-vis vaccine rollout.

You stop it when you see stuff, you reevaluate. When that started happening to mRNA, no such stop, no such stoppage occurred. All right, we're going to move on. We're going to take a little break. We're going to bring Oren in here. We're going to talk about his new book. We're going to talk more about the elite in Scots state.

And we're going to do a little history, I suspect. We're going to go back to the Enlightenment. I want to bring in the French Revolution. The 18th century will make an appearance here. Sorry to bore you all with that, but I think you'll find it very interesting. Be right back after this. Let's talk about aging because everyone wants to know how to slow it down. For almost a decade, I've been taking a healthy aging supplement called TruNiagen. This supplement

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I'm spending a lot of my time trying to understand how in the world this happens. So thank you for writing the book. I know Jeffrey has read it and has some thoughts. I'll give you a chance to describe what motivated it first. No, thank you so much for having me. And I feel exactly the same way. To be clear, five years ago, I was a stock issue, standard talk radio conservative. I listened to Rush Limbaugh. I went to civics class. I knew that the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and separation of powers were going to protect us when tyranny came. And then 2016 and the way people reacted

to Trump made me wonder. But then 2020, obviously, the churches were closed. The strip clubs were open. We couldn't go to bury our loved ones, but the Democrats could run around and burn down buildings and riot in the streets and drink champagne when Joe Biden got selected as president. It just became really clear that the things that I had learned about the American government and the way power worked in the United States just weren't true. And so the book is really the story of my intellectual journey as I went through my background in political theory and kind of traced down these thinkers that usually are not included in the conservative or right-wing canon in the United States,

but helped me to understand what was going on. And so my purpose in the book is really just to help people hopefully go on the same journey I did of understanding how power really works in the United States and how hopefully we can kind of correct the situation we find ourselves in. I want to give Jeffrey a chance to have at you a little bit, but before I do, I want to read something from,

I think, Jeffrey, this would be your camp, from the Mises camp, that the, this is Du Juvenal, his discussion of the problem of sovereignty, says the limit or restrict the scope of power is the attention of popular sovereignty or even the divine right or the balance of powers. Restrict scope of power, but that quote in the end, single such theory has sooner or later lost its original purpose and come to act merely as a springboard to power,

much like we just saw, by providing it with the powerful and invisible sovereign with whom it could in time successfully identify itself. Jeffrey, have at it. I love De Juvenal, and that's my favorite part of McIntyre's book, is the celebration of De Juvenal. And he's a neglected thinker, and I think if you take politics seriously, you need to read him. So I was thrilled by that. Part of de Genève's theory of liberty in general is that it's not guaranteed by proclamations from above concerning individual rights. It's guaranteed by mediating structures in the culture. Large, powerful, organic institutions like churches, intergenerational wealth, communities

with robust folkways that grow up over generations that ferociously defend their freedom against the state. And so, Pradip Makhadar's theory is that when you get liberalism coming along and saying, oh, everybody should have rights, we should just have individual rights, and here's our fancy constitutions, we can protect it. It's not like I'm making this case,

which I'm not sure I am, but his point is that liberalism can, in fact, be organized as an attack on these structures of authority, the aristocracies, intergenerational wealth, the religious traditions and community folkways that are, in fact fact bulwark against the state. Liberalism can attack those things and reduce the essential struggle of politics to an individual versus the state, and under those conditions

the individual will always lose. I think that's de Givrenault's argument. I think it's for us. Always ultimately lose? Ultimately lose against... Or it's set up as a loss to begin with? It's a set up as a loss. Well, I think the position of de Givonneau and the tradition that it represents says that this rationalistic project to construct a social order around a handful of postulates will eventually end up empowering managerial elite that will be in a position to attack all the structures that are actually

defending individual liberty and just invite individuals to say, oh yeah, come at us, come at us with your rights. If you want to, one of the best and most interesting, I didn't write about this part of McIntyre's book, but the most interesting thing is his actually brilliant and quite hilarious critique of the Constitution. So you have these separation of powers, right?

And you think, oh, yeah, the judiciary is going to be competing with the executive. The executive is going to hate the legislators and all are going to be arguing with each other, and that'll protect the rest of us. And McIntyre's like, well, wait a minute. Why would that happen? Why wouldn't they just get together and exploit everybody else? So his point is essentially, there is no technical rationalistic construct that ultimately

defends liberty. Liberty is something that grows out of a long experience of a well-developed, mature civilization with its own folkways that cannot and will not be disturbed and institutions that will just simply say, no, we will not be ruled. And that's where he says liberalism goes wrong, that it forgets that point. And to that extent, I think I agree with him. Orin, we'll let be ruled. And that's where he says liberalism goes wrong, that it forgets that point. And to that extent, I think I agree with him.

Or I will let you respond. But I think de Tocqueville made the same point. I don't know if you brought him into your conversation in the book. Yep. Yes, he does. And I think it's important for people to understand that my book is not some wholesale rejection

of the founding fathers or the principles of the United States. I have extreme respect for the founding fathers. It principles of the United States. I have extreme respect for the founding fathers. It's the tradition I believe in. And I think the founding fathers understood something that Baron de Montesquieu, who was the guy who created the mixed constitutional model that they brought into the constitution. I think Madison, many others understood this magic of the mixed constitution does come, likeffrey's pointing out from these different social forces these different areas of our culture these organic institutions ultimately

they are what actually puts pushes back against the government it's not some creation of words on paper or an enumeration of rights ultimately those rights are simply placed there because we already believe in them we already share the tradition and folk ways, the faith and the identity that inform those things. And it is our vigilance and our virtue in our communities that actually pushes back against this. But I think ultimately, liberalism erodes these values because liberalism sold us this idea of political neutrality, the idea that we could shove all the existential conflicts of religion and identity and other things into the closet we could create this minimum bare minimum type of morality and identity on which we could trade and do business and of course this was great in a lot

of ways right we we benefit from an amazing amount of material prosperity and everything else advancement that comes along with this system but ultimately this was a lie because there is no such thing as a neutral system and we're seeing that now right we all believed that we were governed by these institutions that were going to go ahead and create this marketplace of ideas this public square where ideas would kind of face off and the best thing would win and that's what the scientific method and all of these things were about. But it turns out when the chips are down and power is on the line, there isn't actually a definitive class and a definitive ideology that is managing these institutions. Especially as we scale society up and we create these vast bureaucracies that are required to go ahead and mass produce, mass consume, distribute public policy.

And that ends up pulling us into thinking we are governed by neutral institutions, when the truth is we're governed by a permanent managerial class operating under a disguise of objective liberalism. And did the post-structuralists create this kind of cynicism necessary for this really to go to where it's gone? I think in many ways, post-modernism and many of the enemies that conservatives make out are actually just pointing out the weaknesses of the modern structure that we are now observing. I don't think that really what we saw in the pandemic was a failure due to post-modernism, was actually just the actual failure of modernism. It was the essential critique that postmodernism brang to what would come when modern institutions were stretched to their limits and when points of failures really arose. Ultimately, what we ended

up in was this constant governments under what Carl Schmitt called the state of exception. When we reach the end of the application of any given constitution where it can't predict what comes next and we end up under the sovereignty of the institutions we have gone ahead and vested the powers in. The problem is that most Americans didn't understand what institutions had actually received that sovereignty. They thought they were still governed by representatives and presidents when they were actually governed by Anthony Fauci and the World Health Organization. And Jeffrey, I think we're going towards the Enlightenment criticism here. Go ahead.

Yeah, yeah. So, look, I have the highest respect for this critique, and I really appreciate it and all the literature that he cites. But I don't know. And Max Chai will laugh at me to think, oh, you're just another liberal with a technical fix. But I really think that the problem that he's identifying began with the Pendleton Act of 1883. I mean, it was the very first time we imagined that we would have civil servants that were independent of politics. And that rose up after 1883 and really rose up during war. And then there's this catastrophic constitutional amendment

that led to the direct election of senators that really disenfranchised the states as being powerful agents in the constitutional structure so that the Senate became just like the House, just democratically elected, and the cities began to rule everything. So, you know, I think without the Pendleton Act and without the direct election of senators, the American Constitution might have protected us

against something like COVID lockdowns. I think those are just mistakes that we made. In other words, I'm not ready to say, oh, liberalism sucks. It's always terrible. I think we could have fixed it. You know, something like the liberalism that we lived under the Articles of Confederation or even under the Constitution up till 1883 was more or less viable. I mean, it did protect our rights. It did protect our freedom. And like like oran says we develop societies of tremendous wealth long lives and

um emancipation for everybody i think that is something to celebrate i think we could have preserved it if we hadn't made these mistakes along the way you know erecting the permanent class i think i think i think i read into juvenile stuff stuff that as the state gets bigger, war becomes inevitable, which just makes the state bigger. Did I see something like that? And it's interesting that 1883 was right between the Civil War, right before the Spanish-American War, which really was the first. And people point at the First World War. But the Spanish-American War was really the first major military operation of this country, certainly overseas. But Aaron, go ahead and respond to all that. Yeah, the good news is

actually you don't even have to refer to some kind of weird, you know, oblique political theorist. You can just look at the Federalist Papers. Madison was warning about the dangers of standing armies back in the Federalist Papers. In fact, he was arguing that you needed to go ahead and make the militia

subject to the federal government only because that allowed you to avoid the dangerous precedent of creating a standing army and that it would compel you into these wars. My response to Jeffrey would simply be that, you know, that de Gimignan's point is ultimately that power has a metaphysical quality that it always seeks to go ahead and centralize. He makes this point that the exact process we're talking about right now in the United States also occurred in the Roman Republic. If you go back and read for Stel Kalonja's The Ancient City, he also explains how this occurred in the Greek city states.

What we're talking about is the human condition. It's not just the problem of liberalism, though. I think liberalism does have its own discrete issues that I talk about in the book. But I think largely what we're talking about is the problem of power and the way that it exists in human social organization. We are always attempting to build the Tower of Babel. We are always attempting to centralize power, create greater states,

and create these vast bureaucracies and decentralization that creates amazing feats. But ultimately, they collapse under their own weight. And I think that's what we saw during the pandemic. We did not realize how much of our sovereignty had been handed over to these global organizations. And again, in the book, I talk about why the managerial elite

feel the need to globalize, why that's part of their structure and how their power grows. But I think ultimately it is also doomed because we see the way in which their need to exercise that power also collapsed many of our social structures and put a very tenuous relationship between the people and those in power.

I think that will continue. It will continue to create problems until we start to see many of these structures collapse under their own weight. And by the way, as much as I was annoyed by your discussion of Carl Schmitt, who I personally despise, especially his attack on Benjamin Constant, who's my hero, okay? So just laying it out there. Your last chapter is the reward for everybody for reading your whole book, or last two chapters,

because that's when you explain that the total state, as it's constructed by the managerial class, is not sustainable because it's inconsistent with human nature, with human experience. Humankind does not like to live in cages. And the apparatus is too big, too audacious, too hegemonic, and that their science doesn't work. And ultimately, human beings will push back against it.

And you lay out a series of of i thought very plausible very believable things are going to happen in the future to dismantle this let us in on that i want some plausible optimism well the good news like jeffrey's pointing out is that ultimately i do believe that this total state is unsustainable, that the ways in which it tries to homogenize human existence, the way that tries to build interdependent structures that are simply pressed to their limits and eventually break down means that we're going to see these large centralized bureaucracies start to falter. We already saw this during the pandemic with the pushback in states like my own in Florida.

We saw Ron DeSantis become a rock star governor because of his willingness to say no he's also done this on things like the desire of the biden administration to destroy women's sports through title nine of the civil rights act we also see governors like greg abbott finally started to take action uh pardoning uh pardoning the officer who was uh who was arrested or who was sentenced because he defended himself in the BLM riots, trying to stop the passing at Eagle Pass, trying to shut down the open border there. We're starting to see regional governors realize that actually the federal government is directly in opposition to the well-being of the people who live under them. And they're starting to be emboldened by the fact that if they turn around and Greg Abbott says, actually, you're just not going to come in and cut this barb wire. And the government says, oh, yeah, we are. And then just nothing happens. Actually, there's no real consequence. Right. And I think eventually these people just start to understand that

actually listening to Joe Biden and or whatever figurehead that the total state pops up in front of us is actually a detriment to them. And they'll start pushing back against these things slowly at first, but eventually centralizing power in a way that was actually the way the government was supposed to work in the United States, the federal system. And I think one that is far healthier for our natural form of human organization. And to bring it back to COVID, you know, I mean, how many people have actually gotten their ninth booster or whatever we're on? I mean, you know, everybody's refusing this stuff. It's well known that the vaccines did not work. The trust is gone in public health, the trust in science and expertise, the trust in the media, it's all melted away. So in a way, the great demonstration program of the power of the

administrative class and the managerial ruling class elite and their magnificent scheme for getting rid of the pandemic, it lies now in ruins, and reputationally, too. So to McIntyre's point,

it's not sustainable that a whole population is big. And we're talking really about the world, too. I mean, Europe has the same problems as you have. Which is crazy. The same story and the same problems. I mean, Brownstone held a retreat in Spain recently, and we were astounded. We had people from 30 countries.

We all told the same story. So, you know, it really is a global issue. And now you've got the whole world's population that's lost trust in the entire upper crust to 1% of the ruling class around the world that did this to us. How is that sustainable? I don't believe it is. I don't know about sustainable, but I can think of nothing more healthy than that. I mean, to get back to DeDockville, his whole point was that the only reason democracy worked in America was because of the local practice of democracy. And I can tell you from the standpoint

of the medical system, the medical system is supposed to be two people, patient and physician, doing their jobs together. And nobody is supposed to get in the way of that. And everything we put on top of that is a freaking catastrophe. So I don't know.

It's back to simplicity i and it's interesting to what um uh aaron is aaron is saying that ours i keep thinking that our state system may be our salvation the fact that we have well-developed states that run decent governments in california new york and so much but but many states are running decent systems where people can can, can live their lives, and want to be left alone by the government. There's a whole thing here. You know, there's another thing I've been thinking about as it pertains to America that

you guys are not bringing up. But people that came here, that immigrated here, did not come here because they were leading happy lives in the countries they had found themselves. We were all one trauma, one incredibly profound, longstanding population of PTSD after PTSD, whether somebody was brought here on a galley or whether they were in shackles or whether they were running away from the whole of Dolemoor like my family or whether they were the Northern Englanders that came in, the wildlings coming into North Carolina.

I mean, this country has a lot of psychopathology built into it, and we never think about that. I like to think of this country as a country of rebels, and I'd like to believe that we're really rediscovering what that is like. And we all have to speak for ourselves here, but I myself have gone through this process of rediscovering ever since the COVID experience. Like, what is real food?

I've gotten curious about issues like, what are we being medicalized? What about these medicines? Where do they medicalized? What about these medicines? Where do they come from? What about these regulatory agencies? How do I protect my health? Why have I gone

along with mainstream culture? Why did I believe that big tech was going to save me when actually it turns out to be the enemy? I'm rethinking a lot of things. And I don't think I'm alone. There's a lot of people who are doing this. And there have been so many lies, so much civilizational breakdown that's happened in just such a short period of time.

I just hope that enough people are ready to question basically everything in time to save us. Well, we've outsourced a lot of our decision-making and a lot of our responsibilities to organizations and institutions that we're supposed to be expert, right? We handed over all of these ideas about what we should eat and how we should raise our children and everything else to these people

who were supposed to be these neutral experts. And what we had crashing all around us when it came from whether the education during COVID covid when we realized it was all just garbage and none of it was actually teaching anyone or we learned that the medical profession sadly in many ways had been taken over by these ideologues what we quickly understood is we have to stop just handing these responsibilities over to others and that's really what allowed for the creation of the total state we had no pushback against all of these ideological institutions because we had handed over the education of our children, the care of our family, our health, our safety, everything over to some

other large bureaucratic institution that just took money out of our pocket. And then we never looked at again. And we've realized that is not a way we can continue to live if we want to live prosperously. We have to go ahead and recreate communities of virtue that look out for each other, care for each other, and take responsibilities that we've handed to others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you see why everybody should buy Aaron's book. I mean, it's a really powerful book.

I see. Yeah, I get it. Despite my disagreements on the margin with it, and I point them out in my my review um i i do think it's interesting actually dr jews bringing up tocqueville it's funny that you rally around the juvenile never i as far as i know don't mention tocqueville um so i have my own list of heroes who have yours but i i love i love your book i i think it's thrilling that you've unearthed this gigantic tradition and given a very compelling explanation for the tyrannies of our times.

I hope everybody reads it. Yeah, it is tyranny, right? I mean, that word has been on my lips a lot during the last three or four years. And I started thinking that way back with how the medical system was operating 20 years ago. And it's unfortunate that everyone missed the opioid crisis as the pandemic of opiate overprescribing as an opportunity to see what was ahead. Because the same playbook, same exact playbook as COVID. Exactly. An evangelical group, an evangelical group of physicians who went around and convinced the regulators and the VA and the state medical societies that pain should never be experienced in America again,

that pain is the fifth vital sign. Then they got some cases in California, New York, and Florida to criminally go after doctors for inadequate treatment of pain, not malpractice, criminal actions and civil actions. And the transformation was complete. And then the drug companies, of course, leaned into it, but they did not cause it. It was the exact same playbook as COVID. And it is, again, that decentralization, the turning over of authority, the expecting people to be experts and not to be biased or delusional or to really just represent the well-being

as opposed to their point of view. Huge mistake, but I should write a book on that, really, because I lived through that damn thing. It's the same exact stuff we're talking about now. So many people knew that this was, as it unfolded, people understood the story that was unfolding. I did not.

I didn't follow any of that opioid business. I didn't have any idea of the power of the big pharma. I thought the problem with our pharmaceuticals, the FDA hasn't approved enough drugs quickly enough. I mean, if you had asked me five years ago, that's what I would have told you, and I would have been wrong. I didn't understand just how captured FDA really was. So this whole thing has shocked me.

And not, again, not just the U.S. government, but governments all over the world. You know, the whole apparatus of the state hegemon globally captured by a handful of pharmaceutical companies working with bio-defense. It sounds crazy, but there it is. And that's what we've seen. That's why it took me such a long time to become a believer. It begs the issue to Oren whether or not that is something about the way these bureaucracies developed or the way they structured or the psychology or the ideology.

What do you think, Oren? I actually make the argument in the book. I lay out why bureaucratic structures do inevitably lead us to this result. Why over time we will see that these the incentive structures of bureaucracies always move them in the direction of what many from the original mission of the organization and instead molding themselves around the interests of the bureaucrats themselves the managers the way that they want to go ahead and form society i was working as a teacher a high school teacher during the pandemic and let me tell you the terrifying things that are still floating around entire inside the education system you don't even realize the way in which the pandemic has revolutionized the grading system

inside public schools. If you think the education is bad now, I promise you every grade that is coming out of a kid in the system right now is inflated by at least two grade levels because of the way that grading was altered to hide the amount of damage that was done during the pandemic by the fake schooling that we were putting on. And nobody's looking at this. We're all just pretending like everything's fine. We're not thinking about the generational damage that has been built into these systems that we rely on

and will continue to be built in them because they've been altered for the benefit of the managers, for their promotions, for their aggrandizement, for their power, not for the actual mission of helping students or helping people get healthy through the medical system. Aaron, I have a question about this, if you wouldn't mind my asking something of you. On the education point, the pandemic protocols as they governed education have been devastating for the public school system. There's a mass shortage of teachers. There's a truancy pandemic, as the Wall Street Journal said. We've got homeschooling exploding. People are clamoring around private schools. Everything has changed. Now, I don't understand how this happened. Like, why wouldn't you, if you're a pandemic planner who's a progressive

and you love the public schooling system, like, why would you allow that to happen to an entire public schooling system that seems to be in the process of rapid decay? So I think the thing to really understand, and again, I make this argument in the book, is that while we do have a general system of managerial elites that do have power politics and incentives that align in a particular

direction, they all have their own individual priorities. They all have their own individual things that they are fighting for, different zones of control, different priorities that they want to go ahead and advance. And so it's a mistake to always think that there's a top-down centralization over every distinct part of that and that they've always peered deeply into the future of what the consequences will be for the plans as they unfold. In many ways, this is a decentralized apparatus. It has a general ethos, a general idea of where it should be going, what it should be

doing, and the way in which it wants to mold society. But there's no central hub that's handing down a blow-by-blow. I mean, obviously, we do know there is a level of coordination, of course. But I don't think there's a cabal at the top that has planned out every application across every institution. And it's ultimately the way those permutations will play themselves out and benefit different classes. So I think ultimately the public school system did not understand that once the students were put in the home with the parent, and once they actually saw the way that things played out, that many parents would actually take action. They would recognize the problem. All of this had been happening in the school building. Don't make no mistake. Everything that your kid was learning, everything that they

weren't learning, everything that was distorted and put in front of them when they were in your home, that was all happening behind closed doors and you just didn't know about it. And when they put those people inside the same room with their kids, suddenly it became very clear what was happening and many parents went ahead and took action. And that's why we're seeing the exodus from the public school system that we are. Interesting. Really interesting. The last sort of thought I just want you to address, since I have both of you, was something I've been thinking about quite a bit, which is it feels like, at least in the modern era, I know you reference Greek and Roman history a little bit, and of course there was its own version of this, But it seems to me that the modern era

of the bureaucratic state really came out of feudalism and monarchical society and Louis XIV being the peak of that, at which the Jacobins then wanted to take over and have it just run by the people, essentially. A, and then the Soviets and the Chinese got a hold of that and you had now charismatic leaders taking over as opposed to the people my question is twofold one is

is that model kind of right is that really where it all got got going number one and number two in that situation the mob the ideological excesses obviously ran amok and it required a strong man to step in to put a stop to it Machiavelli has suggested in his political theory that that's necessary to stop nonsense like that is it our state system that's going to cause us to avoid this or are we at risk of something like that? So it's predicted by everyone in my book from Bertrand de Juvenal to Gaetano Mosca that states fluctuate between a feudal type and a bureaucratic type. And sometimes that happens inside monarchies. We can see that the Byzantines were a very bureaucratic monarchy. But of course, we think of European feudalism as being very distinctly

spread out. That's what created a lot of the dynamic inside European monarchies. So ultimately, this is something that happens inside many different styles of government. But what we usually see is that as things approach this kind of oligarchic bureaucratic distribution, once we've lost kind of the shared identity that made people share a moral vision and move towards a particular idea of the good and instead we see people uh you know lose that that founding identity and ideology and instead spread themselves off across these institutions that otherwise cannot solve these problems we do see that in this cycle of civilizations often a caesar-like figure

comes in to cut the gordian knot when we have these bureaucracies that otherwise cannot be controlled will we see that in at the federal level is it more likely to happen at state levels as power moves into maybe the hands of governors who are vigorous executives it's hard to say how it will look in our particular civilization but the pattern that you're pointing to is one that many different political theorists see as inevitable in our current situation. Or have we just been through that? Jeffrey, maybe we've just been through it. I mean, you know, we, we, I mean, California, certainly in New York, I mean, if you, when you stand back and describe what happened, it was all done with a smile and a shock. But, man, that was behavior of strong men.

Jeffrey? Yeah, and it's grotesque that Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York, now says, oh, no, I really couldn't enforce any of that stuff. It was all voluntary anyway, which is despicable because I was in New York at the time, you know, back and forth, and I knew for sure they're going around ticketing. We had cops going into restaurants checking vaccine papers,

for God's sake. Oh, I was there. Yeah, I saw it. So, I mean, it's just despicable. So, yeah, it's right that the Caesar model is one path out, and I hope that that's not where we go. I mean, that's not where we go.

I mean, that's what Hayek said. I hope we're coming through it. We're going back to the republics. I hope so. That's the other thing. I hope so. You know, we have a beautiful – this is the thing. I don't want us to forget our beautiful history.

You know, we have a lovely colonial period of massive diversity, I have to say. We didn't have to have a unitary agreement on everything we had huge diversity as long as it's decentralized um we had great trading great Commerce uh great political systems you know not perfect but very nice it came to be codified in the articles Confederation then the Constitution which worked rather well with one grave flaw that was uh dealt with you know in a painful and disgusting civil war. There surely would have been other ways. But it was in the 20th century where things broke with the creation of the administrative state.

So to me, the answer is that somebody somehow has to address this beast that's out there. These unaccountable 2 million plus bureaucrats spread out over 400 plus agencies and disempower them. And maybe that comes from the judiciary. Maybe it comes from just public opinion saying we've had enough. We want freedom. This is not the way freedom looks.

And maybe public opinion... Or comes from the purse. Yeah, but there is this... I guess my view is that there is a solution here and and the solution is to dismantle this administrative bureaucracy that's interfering with with our natural rights and our natural freedoms that should have been part of the legacy. It was the legacy of Europe and, you know, in its best days and America in its best days too. And I think we just need to look back at that

and see how we did it and start the renewal all over again. I think, gentlemen, we should leave that right there. It's a good place to stop. You've all got reading to do now. You've got to get The Total State, How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies.

You need to read that book. Then you need to read Jeffrey Tucker's book on liberty or lockdown. You can follow, or Life After Lockdown, I guess, is the latest one. Follow Mr. Tucker at JeffreyTucker.me or also on X at Jeffrey Tucker. Aaron McIntyre is at Aaron, A-U-R-O-N McIntyre,

M-A-C-I-N-T-Y-R-E. Also, the Aaron McIntyre Show, wherever you get your... Do you have a rumble or anything, Aaron, that they should be subscribing to? Have a YouTube, have a rumble, have the podcast on all platforms and of course we have Blaze TV. And I keep saying Aaron Oren I think is proper pronunciation and then

Substack which is orenmcdart.substack.com Did I miss anything from a standpoint of plugs for you guys? No, I just want to say it's such a pleasure to be here with Oren because I feel like I've lived and breathed for the last 48 hours. I've read your book.

I loved it. I found it engaging. I wish I could answer it. I don't think I'm intellectually capable of doing it. But it was an adventure for me. And I just want to thank you for writing it and for being here with me today I appreciate it very much no thank you it's very kind of big fan of both of your work so it's been great to talk to you guys thank you gentlemen we will talk soon no doubt uh again I've all the plugs uh

Caleb will put up on the website as well coming up uh Mike Benz on Tuesday we're going to hear more about the blob and how that can be dismantled. Dr. Victory will be in here on Wednesday. Thursday, no show next week. Those will be normal time. We appreciate you guys coming in here early today and yesterday for that matter. And then we've got a bunch of guests coming in. We have Wolf Brian O'Shea with her husband coming in.

We've got Winston Marshall coming in. We're going to do that show early because he's in the UK. He is the musician who had faced off at the Oxford Club against Nancy Pelosi. And it should be very interesting to talk to him. So check it out. We've got a lot of great guests coming up. Is that him?

What's that? Is that his band? I think that's correct. I believe that's true. I believe that's correct. And yeah, Emily's been doing an amazing job. Emily Barsh is out there booking away. And we will have more ahead.

You can put any suggestions at contactdoctoru.com if you have anything you want to talk about. Anybody you want me to interview, we are taking suggestions and Emily and I are always tossing ideas back and forth. And yes, I do follow the show and do subscribe on our Rumble channel. And we'll see you.

Caleb, anything from your standpoint? We did this at a distance this week. It worked out pretty well, I think, even with the weird timing. All worked pretty well. We have a very early show, I believe, is the one that's going to be with Winston. So I'm not looking forward to that hour, but I'll do it for him. Yeah, it's going to be an interesting show.

That's the first time we'll have done a morning show. And if it really drives you guys crazy that we move the show around too much, please let us know if there's ways we can make that more manageable for you. If you react to it, if you don't react to it, let us know that too, because it gives us more flexibility

to bring in more international crowd here. All right. So we appreciate you all being here. Caleb, thank you for the show. Thank you for running things technically. And we will see you all on Tuesday at three o'clock Pacific time with Mike Pence. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky.

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