Ask Dr. Drew - Paulina Pinsky (Dr. Drew's Daughter) on Marijuana Addiction Recovery + Your Calls – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 191

Episode Date: March 11, 2023

Dr. Drew answers your calls LIVE on any topic, with special guest Paulina Pinsky! Paulina is Dr. Drew's daughter and co-author of "It Doesn't Have To Be Awkward." At https://paulinapinsky.substack.com, Paulina shares her newly-sober journey after abstaining from alcohol and marijuana for the longest time in 11 years. Paulina holds an MFA from Columbia University. Follow Paulina online at https://twitter.com/mizpiggy111 or at https://paulinapinsky.com. 「 SPONSORED BY 」 • BIRCH GOLD - Don’t let your savings lose value. You can own physical gold and silver in a tax-sheltered retirement account, and Birch Gold will help you do it. Claim your free, no obligation info kit from Birch Gold at https://birchgold.com/drew • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 The CDC states that COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and reduce your risk of severe illness. Hundreds of millions of people have received a COVID-19 vaccine, and serious adverse reactions are uncommon. Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician and Dr. Kelly Victory is a board-certified emergency specialist. Portions of this program will examine countervailing views on important medical issues. You should always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health.  「 ABOUT the SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 GEAR PROVIDED BY 」 • BLUE MICS - Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue • ELGATO - See how Elgato's lights transformed Dr. Drew's set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/ 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 For over 30 years, Dr. Drew has answered questions and offered guidance to millions through popular shows like Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Dr. Drew On Call (HLN), Teen Mom OG (MTV), and the iconic radio show Loveline. Now, Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio. Watch all of Dr. Drew's latest shows at https://drdrew.tv Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Everybody, thank you all for being here. We, of course, are watching on Restream. We're going to set up, we have a Twitter space to set up from which we will take some calls, hopefully. Today, Paulina Pinsky joins us. Last time she was here, she was in at about three or four months of sobriety and she wanted to come back and share her growth and perspectives now that she's 16 months or so out into her sobriety.

So we will get her thoughts on that. We get your calls. And she'll be with me about 30 to 40 minutes. And then I want to lay out, um, my thoughts and changes in my thinking as it pertains to the lab leak hypothesis and what to look for and, uh, how we, and moreover, how we all need to keep an open mind as it goes to every topic and talk a little bit about how people are either angry and aggressive and projecting or they're withdrawing and becoming sort of siloed and angry and paranoid and how we have to all fight against all those things. So I'll be right back after this. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopath started this.

He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f*** sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real.

We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. We'll be right back. style. There's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM. A sportsbook worth a slam dunk. An authorized gaming partner

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to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. And let's get right into it. Welcome Pauline Opinski. Hello there. Hang on, let's bring her on it. Welcome Paulina Penske. Hello there. Hello,

hang on. Let's bring her on in. There we are. There we are. Welcome. So, uh, do you want to give your thoughts on what brought you back?

Or I've got Kevin Sabet on hold here over at the Twitter spaces. He'll be a very interesting resource for you to talk to. Yeah. But, uh, should we get your thoughts first? You want to go straight out to Kevin? Well,

I just want to course correct. I do But should we get your thoughts first? You want to go straight out to Kevin? Well, I just want to, of course, correct. I do not have 16 months. I have like 14. I don't want to say I have more time than I do. So 441 days. December, January, February, March. Wait, am I doing my math wrong? Oh, no, it was the end of December.

I counted December as a whole month. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm open to talk to anybody. I don't have an agenda other than to be like, hi, hello. It's been a long time since I last saw you. And yeah, I look back on that live stream from, you know, when I was like maybe 90 days sober, which is only three months in and how different everything feels from then. And sort of, you know, I think as an artist and a writer and committed to changing in public. And I think I wanted the opportunity to be like, you're going to make a difference. It makes a huge difference. And so I'm just here to,

I don't know, do whatever you want to talk to me about. Let's explain what your addiction was. I was very, very addicted to marijuana. I'm sorry to tell you weed is addictive. When I was on the live stream last, that felt like a very dangerous thing to say because it gets so much pushback. And from where I'm standing, I think a lot of the rhetoric used to legalize marijuana is backfiring, so much so that people believe that it's not addictive, that it's only medicine. And I will tell people, I was addicted to marijuana, and they'll look at me and be like, but it's not addictive. And I think a lot of the rhetoric used to legalize is backfiring. You know, I think we should be thinking about marijuana like we think about big tobacco and the narratives

that were being sold aren't necessarily the truth. But I couldn't get past 11 a.m. without smoking. I had cannabinoids, hyperemesis, where I was ingesting so much weed that I was vomiting every day. And, you know, in the larger culture, we don't hear about marijuana addiction. I think mostly because it is seen as this panacea and it's a spiritual tool and all these things, which it very much can be. But also it feels like there isn't a spectrum of conversation there. And I think for a lot of people, it brings up feelings of anger because we have been told it is all these things, but also because when we hear that it's addictive, it makes us think about our own behaviors. And so I'm not here to say that you're addicted to marijuana. I'm here to say that I was addicted to marijuana and that my life is so much better now that I am completely abstinent from any drugs and alcohol.

And that's because I have the gene. And I, yeah, I'm just here to say that, you know, if you're suffering, if you're experiencing depression and anxiety and you're smoking weed all the time, it's probably the weed. You also mentioned last time, which was actually, you educated me a little bit about the fact that if you're doing dabs, if you're bringing a blowtorch out, it's time to start looking at things. Yeah, you're taking weed to a very meth-y degree. I would say, you know, for those of us who are not familiar with dabs, weed can come in flour and tinctures. Dabs are highly concentrated oils. So, you know, a joint in the 60s was like 0.5% THC. And this is all from my understanding, and I'm open to having conversation and learning more. But again, it's hard to find information that is counter to

the larger narrative that is like, weed is medicine, and it is a creative tool and all these things. But now a THC joint or edible, I mean, in California, a lot of them start at five milligrams THC, but a joint can go anywhere from 12% to 80%. And dabs are in that 80 percent category. And so I think a lot of us who who use dabs or currently using dab is because our tolerance is so high that we don't get high smoking joints anymore. And so it's actually more cost effective to use dabs. But that being said, you know, I had extreme esophagitis. I was vomiting every day. I was you know, the first time I did a dab, I felt my soul leave my body. And then I projectile vomited onto the couch and the dog and then shook in the bathtub for three hours. And you never thought, maybe there's an association between these dabs and the vomiting?

Of course not, because no one was asking me that question. And it's like, oh, it's my history of eating disorder. Or I'm coughing so hard, but it's like, oh, is it the bong rip? But when you're in it, you can't really see yourself as clearly as you think you can. And so now that, you know, I have 441 days without ingesting any mind altering substances, I can see the way in which my addiction is, you know, a self perception disease. And that, you know, I was I couldn't get past 11am without smoking and be like, Oh, I need to write I need to smoke. If I smoke, I will write but if I smoke, then I won't write. And so it was just like this weird tangle and inevitably I'd smoke and I wouldn't write. And now, you know, I don't smoke

at all. And I write all day long, you know, whether it's morning pages, night journals, you know, essays, you know, I think a lot of us think about marijuana as a creativity inducing tool. And I'm here to say that you are inherently creative and you don't need to outsource your creativity, even though it may feel that way, which is why I lead people through The Artist's Way, which is a 12-week spiritual program, a workbook written by Julia Cameron meant to unblock creativity.

And I think a lot of the things that we outsource to are actually inhibiting us more than we think. For sure. And that is one of the things I see frequently with cannabis. It does, people think they're enhanced, but they're often just, their knees are knocked out. It's like, they can't move forward. It's very crazy. I think how it feels is not how people perceive you. And I think, you know, even though you may

feel more comfortable, say, smoking before going to a party and you feel settled, people feel that you leave the room, that you're not as present as you think you are. And people get rigid and irritable too with it, the kind of strange ways. Yeah. And it's only because I was so dedicated to being a stoner that I can see the way in which the self-deception keeps you from being as fully present as you think you are. And that also, that marijuana is also making you more anxious. That happens over time too, and more depressed.

Yeah. Well, let's bring Kevin Saban in, shall we? Yeah. Well, let's bring Kevin Saban in, shall we? Yeah. Kevin runs is the, I don't know what his official title is, but he's the leader at smart approaches to marijuana and he and I've known each other for a long time. I should have notified him about this stream and thankfully he noticed it and I appreciate him being here. Kevin.

Got it. Oh, we're not going to have this connecting process sorry for the little glitch and the delay it's a delay and then Kevin are you there okay you got to unmute yourself the mic in the lower left hand corner and then we're good there you are

hi Kevin hi Drew how are you good to hear your voice what an inspirational story this is so fortuitous guys because I wish Good to hear your voice and point at what an inspirational story. This is so fortuitous guys, because I wish I could tell you, I planned on being on this and it was the high, it would have been the highlight of my week if I planned on it, but I didn't literally just walked off the set of Dr. Phil. We just did a show on psychedelics and just kind of the hype. That's the new marijuana. Yeah. Well, the new marijuana being touted as the magic thing.

But the funny thing is I'm on a plane, so I may have to go at any minute if we take off, but I literally just came to listen and Paulina, you just were telling your story and everything you were saying, it's like you need to be the next head of smart approaches to marijuana here with me and Patrick Kennedy because everything you're saying is completely right and it just rings true. And I just want to congratulate you for the courage to speak on this. It's like, we're like talking about cigarettes in the 1970s when, you know, we're starting to get the research and yet no one's listening still. That's what it's like with marijuana. And I actually did not intend to come on when I requested to speak. I hadn't even, you know, but still you hadn't even shared your story yet. And I was going to

talk about the psychedelics thing, but then you're talking about marijuana. So it's just very fortuitous. I just want to thank you. And, you know, our organization is Sam. Drew has been so generous and helpful with it over the last 10 years now. It's learnaboutsam.org, bipartisan, co-founded with Patrick Kennedy. We have all the major researchers on our board. I mean, the science is pretty settled on this. It's not like up in the air whether or not marijuana can be not always can be addictive or can induce psychosis. I mean, that's pretty settled. A point loss on IQ.

Cardiovascular issues are emerging. Big issues there. So, but the public is just hearing from really the for-profit companies that want to be the next big tobacco and make all that money. And so a voice like yours, I can't tell you how neat it is. And I want to thank you for that following right in the footsteps of Drew. So thank you guys so much. And Kevin, you would appreciate also, I was, maybe she'd been about six months. So I don't remember if you asked me about Tell Your Children by Alex Berenson.

Or I gave it to you or was sitting around or something and you read it. You're like, why did you show this to me? I was like, dude, you were not ready. I wasn't ready. I'm sure I did. You would not have done anything with this to me. I was like, dude, you were not ready. I wasn't ready. I'm sure I did. You would not have done anything with this. Right. And I'll tell you, I got a call yesterday from, and I'll keep it on Emity, obviously,

but the CEO of a major mental health organization. I won't say which one. There's a few of them. You know, this person's daughter, 16 years old, addicted to marijuana since age 12. When she stops using it, she literally after one day, if she stops using it, she just vomits for three days. So she's off one day, she's vomiting three days. And she's in the throes as we speak of a cannabis induced psychosis. And the mom doesn't know what to do. I mean, they're, they're stabilizing her on lithium a little bit, but

she, I mean, you know, and this is someone who, you know, has like people at her, you know, dialed, you know, at her, at her favorites on her phone that she could, you know, and this is someone who, you know, has like people at her, you know, dialed, you know, at her favorites on her phone that she could, you know, congressmen and senators. Yet we just we have not we're not taking this issue as serious as we should. And we're we're all paying the price as a country for it. Yeah. Do me a favor. Refer her to Paulina's writings and stuff. I mean, it's very good resource. I wrote a. I can't wait to read more about it, Paulina. I didn't to be honest, I didn't know much it. So now I'm very excited to read about it. Thank you. I, you know, it is incredibly

difficult to, you know, be honest about this. And I think I've, I've received a lot of pushback and at the end of the day, I know what I experienced. I'll give you an open invite right now. And I don't know if I'm going to put you on the spot and you can look at your calendar, but on 420, which of course is like the stoner holiday, April 20th, we're having our big, we're having, I mean, it's not huge, but a couple hundred, our conference in D.C. We're going to have some senators and members of Congress there and advocates and people who have stories. And unfortunately, a lot of parents whose kids, you know, have not good stories. But your story of hope, we'd love to hear it, whether in person or on video, in D.C. with some members of Congress. Open invite

any time. My answer is yes. April 20th. I'm there. My staff's going to kill me for adding another person to the agenda, but this is worth it. She tells a good story, too. That's what I want to hear. I think that's going to be great, and unfortunately they're giving me evil eyes.

We're like on the tarmac. So I can't stay on, but I'm going's going to be great. And unfortunately, they're giving me evil eyes. We're like on the tarmac. So I can't stay on, but I'm going to listen to this afterwards. And again, you guys are the best. One last thing. Is Alex going to be at the conference? I don't think he is because he's talking a little bit less about cannabis these days, more about, obviously, the COVID issue. He speaks a little bit on it. I've known him for a number of years.

He interviewed me for his book, and we're actually proudly the one organization that he lists in the book as a resource on this. So that's been great. He's very courageous on this issue to speak out. But we are going to have a bunch of scientists, people in the field, advocates, and Paulina, we'd love to have you. Is your number still a 484 number? It is. Same one? That's me still, yes.

Okay, ends in a two. Yes, it does. Okay, okay. All right. All right, I'll give that to Paulina. Yes. Okay? I'll be in contact.

All right, guys. Thanks so much. Take care. Can't wait. Good luck. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I'm going to send that to you right now.

So see how these things, it's extraordinary how these things happen, isn't it? I mean. That's what you call the God shots, miracle of recovery. Serendipity. That kind of stuff. Yeah. Synchronicity, baby. But it happens all the time in recovery, doesn't it?

It does. It does. And I think, you know, because I'm sober, I'm open to these things that I can hear him and actually receive what he's saying to me and also follow up on the opportunity. So I will be contacting him. It sounds really interesting. Yeah. I just, you know, I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome when it comes to marijuana addiction, you know, like sometimes, and I've said this before, and this isn't to, this isn't like a, a logical thing, but sometimes I wish that I had a meth problem because then people wouldn't look at me and be like, you know, meth is medicine. You know, I think there's a lot of belittling that goes along and then there's like, well, I was able to stop. And it's like,

congratulations. I'm so happy for you. I could not. Um, so that's, that's incredible. Like it still blows my hair back when people validate what I experienced. I'm sure. Uh, I don't know. I'm hoping people are that are raising their hand are still on this topic. So to make sure of that, let's just make sure we've covered the territory you wanted to cover before we go to the callers. I didn't really have a specific agenda. I just wanted to showcase and be like, hey, the first year is really hard. THC is in your system for the first six months. I had to take like three naps a day in order to get through the day. You know, I think this is like you don't understand when you

are using how much you are altering your brain chemistry. And I think also speaking about weed induced psychosis, in this last year, I've witnessed three people go into weed induced psychosis alone. I myself had a hypomanic episode 2018. And I think so much of using is not recognizing when you are kind of departuring from reality, because that is the point. But also, I think, you know, there's so much to be said about what this substance can do, right? I like how he phrased it, that it can be addictive, right? I know for full fact that I am wholly addicted to marijuana, and that means that I have to be wholly abstinent. And I'm just here to say that, you know, and it isn't to be like sobriety machine, my life is better and I've never felt pain again. Like I suffer, you know, we all suffer. That is

life. You know, coming out of the pandemic, we're all operating with a loneliness deficit. You know, we're all still recovering from that. We're all dealing with, you know, virtual reality and what it means to perform virtually. And then also feeling this like depth of loneliness where we're trying to connect with people, but everybody is kind of like freaked out because we're so deficient in a certain way. And all of this is to say that it has been such a gift in order to be fully present for my life because so much of my life that I was trying to escape was changeable. And so in order to take change and make action in my life that ended up serving me, but was painful, The worst thing

that ever happened did happen. And you know what? I'm alive and I'm so much happier because of it. And you took your sobriety very seriously and you've done a mutual aid society on a daily basis. I don't think you've missed a day since then. No, I go every day. Yeah. And so people, maybe we'll talk a little bit about that. Cause as you said, some people do stop cannabis on their own. Which is incredible, but that was not me. But you would have missed something had you not done this work i think you know there is a spiritual element for me and part of that has to do with going to a daily recovery meeting and being immersed in an in-person community um and i think so much of addiction

you know the opposite of addiction is connection and so our disease which i frame my addiction and alcoholism you know you put a substance in front of me, I'm going to overdo it. I always have from the start. My nickname in college was Barflina for a reason because I would either black out or vomit. And that's, you know, I think when I first got sober, I didn't remember that for four months. Right. And so, and because I had this, a community where I was showing up every day, where people were getting to know me because I was making relationships and talking to people, I was able to have deeper insight and also connection with other people, which inevitably, I think, you know, I've always been like, you know, my mom brought clairvoyance to the house

when I was a kid and they'd say dead people were in the room. Like that was like sort of the extent of spirituality in our household. You know, I don't have religious trauma. And so going into these spiritual programs, I really came to it really quickly just because I think I've always been a spiritual person, but I don't have a religious dogmatic framework. But I think there's something really important about the spiritual aspect and the spiritual development of recovery that has been really, really helpful in terms of, you know, just my entire life. And, you know, I really believe that anything you put above your sobriety, you're going to lose. And so I go to meetings every day and I write gratitude lists and there's all these little things that I

do that inevitably shift my mindset and help me show up in my life more fully because I put my sobriety first. Yeah. These stories about denial always crack me up because I have staff members I used to work with who would tell stories about things they realized they had done in their disease like four years later. And it was always usually around, the stories were usually around denial. Like I think I told you the story once, a guy who was a counselor at my unit

who would come home raging drunk every night and his wife would like in the morning just go what do you you know get sort of rail on him and uh one morning he came down the stairs and there was a tape recorder you know in old old days that these tape recorders that these cassette tape recorders with play buttons you know sort of like piano keys and um she goes you need to listen to this and she pushed the play button and she said, which, what he heard was this raving maniac. And it sounded like him. And he, his reaction was to become enraged that his wife hired an actor to make him believe he behaved like that when he came home and came home at night. And he, and he didn't realize that till he'd been sober about four years. And he thought, Ooh,

note. Yeah. I mean, it's constantly, every day is a revelation and it can be tiny things and it can be huge things. Like right now I'm really grappling with my perfectionistic thinking and I'm like, oh, this is why I smoked weed every day because this sucks. Like it sucks to like want to do everything so perfectly that you can't even start. Or when you show up imperfectly, you're berating yourself for hours and hours and hours. And I remember being a teenager and like being in the height of my eating disorder and understanding that like, this is a thinking problem. This is how my brain operates. And that inevitably drinking and smoking were solutions to that. But they weren't long term solutions. Sometimes it's just that they feel good. I mean, people do do drugs just because they feel good.

But often it's to feel better. Typically it is to feel better uh and so it does you know if it didn't work you wouldn't do it right and uh the addiction comes next yeah and i had to kind of think about you know when it stopped working and i couldn't stop that was when i was like whoa you know something's wrong here it doesn't feel any good anymore that's that's the that's where it kicks in that's the real thing yeah all right let's keep taking a few couple calls here uh calls here. Uh, Oh, Oh, one last thing before I go to the caller and I've got Jenny, Jenny prepare Jenny fur in a second. Um, uh, why,

what did you want people to know about how you were at four months versus 15 months? I think, um, when I look back on that video, um, there was something very fragile about me and very like live wire raw. And also, I think I was regurgitating a lot of program that I was hearing. And now, you know, I have an understanding of that. That informs my sobriety. Were you afraid that people were going to attack you for daring to say you were addicted to cannabis?

Oh, yeah. I mean, the fact that I got pushback for that was so dangerous because it was such a hard thing to even admit out loud. And at that point, I didn't even understand weed-induced psychosis. It wasn't until nine months in that I understood that I had witnessed weed-induced psychosis multiple times. And so I think when we hear the word psychosis, we think about schizophrenia. And so we think like a Jesus complex and wanting to to murder people, which we do psychosis can do. But often for me, it's, you know, you're talking more subtle. It's more subtle.

It's more like you're not listening. You're not listening as they like rant at you for three hours. And you're like, where is the narrative thread here? And so I think it's like the lack of self-perception and also the inability to sit and listen. It is interesting how you're not listening is a very characteristic phrase that people in that state. It's very interesting. It's happened state will say. It's very interesting. It happens with each person. It's so strange.

And I really pride myself on being someone who really works at being a good listener. And so sitting there and trying to be like, I am listening. I just can't figure out what the hell you're saying. And not to say that occasionally we don't listen and people are right when they say we aren't listening. Well, yeah, you can call me out. Yeah. Let's take this speaker. This is Jenny Furr.

Jenny. Hey, Jenny. Hi, Dr. Drew. Hi, Paulina. Hello. Thanks for having me up. Two things. Dr. Drew, I just wanted to say the other day I was listening to Defending Yourself. And I caught the very end of it. And I thought

you did an amazing job at like talking down those people who are honestly going off the rails on you. Well, thank you. The thing when I look back on it, the thing, by the way, I learned a couple things. And I always, that's why I talk to people. I like to learn stuff stuff but i'm going to talk about that in about 20 minutes but but um but demanding somebody with the thing that i'm offended by and troubled by was somebody was people were demanding i demanding my speech like you have to say the following that that is disgusting behavior but there you are are. No, I totally agree. And, you know, free speech, right? Mandating other people to say what you want them to say, that should not be on anybody's lips. Anybody.

I live in Canada, and I have to say, you know, Peterson's dealing with the same thing here. It's terrible. Wow. here it's terrible wow um but paulina and andrea what i wanted to to mention was um you know uh when i was 36 i had a terrible like experience with marijuana um i'd smoked on and off like recreationally um since i was probably about 21 so not in high school or anything like that but um they're just i don't know if it was the strain or what it was but like literally there was red lines up and down my arms and on my chest and my friend at the time was like i don't understand what's happening to you she's like do you think we should go to the hospital and i was

like well let's just wait and see what happens but after that i was like you know i did the whole okay god if you let me get through this i I'll never smoke it again. What were your other, were you having a, as you look back, did you have a dry mouth? I did. Did you have sort of difficulty with lights, like photophobia? You know, I, I, it was, that was so long ago. I don't know if that was happening or not. Were you sort of agitated, like not scared, but kind of agitated, like pacing around, that kind of thing?

Yes, pacing. Okay. So that's called an anticholinergic delirium. And that is being seen more and more and more frequently from cannabis, particularly in older people. The ER visits are way up for anticholinergic delirium. It used to be something we saw just from certain medications. I remember it was quinines and sometimes people overdose on Benadryl,

things like that. But we're now seeing it from cannabis, mostly in older people, but it's the strength of it. It's just so powerful now that people are having these huge reactions. So you might have had yourself an anticholinergic delirium. You're going to need to spell that out for me.

Okay. I also want to congratulate you, Paulina, on your sobriety. My daughter went through, actually I have a 27-year-old daughter, and two years ago, she was doing dabs on the regular and, you know, the puking. Same thing. Same thing that you had. And she did a cold turkey. She didn't have any support other than me.

I think I mentioned this, actually, on another show that, you know, I was her lifeline 24-7 for a couple of months. She had insomnia and just it was hard to watch. It's brutal. It's super brutal. Well, congratulations to your daughter as well. That's a big deal. Exactly. Thanks, Jenny.

Thank you. You bet. Yeah. I mean, when you really start talking about it, of course, other people have these experiences, but it's, it's much like, it's much like being vaccine injured. People are afraid to talk about it because you get judged and marginalized and all this stuff. And, uh, I look, people look, there are things that happen and we should just be honest about what happens and it doesn't happen to everybody. It doesn't mean here's the thing that bothers me. I think I've discussed this with you before. Because humans in their relationship with a chemical have a clinical syndrome, it doesn't mean the chemical is bad or evil.

It doesn't mean anything about the chemical, in fact. And so we just need to look at that relationship and what happens when the human gets involved with it. I think that's so interesting because I think, you know, when I say it, people hear me saying marijuana is evil. Like, I loved marijuana, clearly. You know, like, I say it, people hear me saying marijuana is evil. Like I loved marijuana clearly, you know, like I, I loved it. And by the way, loving it is a, is a sign. Yeah. No, no, because people that don't get addicted, don't love it. That's a certain biology. It's true. And, and so I, you know, I think a lot about, you know, if someone said, you know, alcohol is my medicine, you'd be like, you're an alcoholic, you know, like there's understanding that alcohol is a mood-altering, mind-altering substance and that overuse of it

can produce a negative effect. Whereas I think, again, we're thinking about marijuana in terms of big tobacco, you know, the rhetoric used to legalize is backfiring. So much so that when you think, oh, this is medicine, oh, this is helping my anxiety, oh, this is helping me be creative, you are regurgitating rhetoric that you have heard. Maybe in the beginning it is that way, but when you overuse it, it doesn't always stay that way. And by the way, non-addicts, it might stay that way. Yeah, God bless you.

That's not me. I got the gene, baby. Yeah. One is not enough. I have to have it all let's see what sing it uh nasser is that you give him a chance i know where she gets it you uh i'm not pulling your finger nass you wanted to give it well yeah i'm you're so different point of view there

we're having trouble getting him up as I often do. There we are. Nasser. Hey, doctor. Can I speak? Yes, of course. Yeah. So the topic of the space actually attracted me and I decided to come here and spill my

own beans. May I? Okay. Of course. Okay. I'm sitting on a lot of lithium deposits and I don't know what to do with it. Sorry, couldn't quite catch you. Lithium, what they use in making electric cars.

Okay. Yeah, I've got tons of rocks of it and I don't know who to sell it to. Please, can you point me in the right direction? Elon Musk. He came. Okay, I can tell you what happened with Elon Musk and my government. He came, but

he wanted to crash the price of lithium and I think that's what cancelled the deal between the two of them. So I'm going my own way now. I can't stick with the government, you know? Good for you. This all sounds very exciting. It's an entrepreneurial spirit.

Yeah, and it also may be solving a real, you know, adding to a, you know, helping solve a serious problem. Well, you know what's actually kind of interesting? This is kind of like an example of like medical marijuana versus like black market marijuana. Like you can have, you know, the government mandated marijuana, but there's always going to be a black market market marijuana. You can have the government mandated marijuana, but there's always gonna be a black market. Well, they're a little different.

I think he really just wants to have a legitimate source. Well, I do want you to have a legitimate source. I'm just saying that there's always a demand. Do you wanna put out your website or something so people can go there if they're interested? I just have a youtube i could get a website running if you advise that i do that i would advise you this is my personal page please follow me i have a lot of pictures and videos of the mine so you can see myself in it

okay where how about so follow you at oh shoot i love how drew can take on anything like what to do with lithium in the afternoon shoot i i put you fell back into the audience here you give us the he didn't give us no he's on twitter it's nasser g i think ah there he is i'm a player so at jen nasser at j g e n at g e n n g e n if you need some lithium, give him a call. G-E-N-N-A-S-I-R. G-E-N-N-A-S-I-R. Sorry, on Twitter. Follow him there and then DM him there. Drew takes this very seriously, Paulina.

Well, I guess I was trying to make an equation to the topic at hand. Go ahead. Well, no, no, no. I don't know anything about lithium. I don't either, but it's kind of a cool story. I like that story if that's what he's doing there is nothing like a 2023 moment it's that someone came in sitting on a rock of lithium i was like is medication no he's like no for batteries i'm gonna operate cars with it okay i'm gonna try uh i'm not sure if this is a cannabis question uh crow is this a uh cannabis type topic hi

um so have you this is on um it is on mental health but it's also on ai okay have you heard of the app called replica and this is just one example uh no um replica is a virtual friend for those who oh yes yes i have i have heard of these things yes okay so i'm one of their top private beta testers and researchers it's not exactly official but like i've done a lot of research for them and i've run one of the public groups and i've seen people and i just think ai is taken wrong because people get the misconception of the fantasy fairytale AI from before it was like

powerful and a thing right they see Terminator and iRobot and they think it's going to take over the world and that's just a false narrative and the issue here is that they are recreations of brain.

They are cognitively alive at this point. Well, it'd be interesting, back to the mental health part, they might help with the loneliness epidemic we are in. They might one day be able to do CBT, that sort of thing, cognitive behavioral therapies. And if it wasn't enough that we discussed lithium paulina we got into ai here that's the other one 2023 is wild so uh let's kind of wrap this up and i'm gonna take a break and then i'm gonna i've got a little diatribe i need to go on here and paulina

yeah you're gonna go uh one of your workshops yeah so um can i just uh give myself a little plug? Hi, I'm a writer. I do writing coaching. So if you want to go to my website, paulinapinsky.com, you can see all my options for writing coaching. I do one-on-one writing coaching. And so if you have a creative writing idea and you don't know how to start it or what to do, you can contact me there. I also do independent courses. As I mentioned before, the 12-week artist way. I'm going to be holding another session May through July. And so that will be sort of like a weekly support group through the

12-week workbook meant to unblock creativity. Again, it's not just about creativity though. It's about, you know, recovering a sense of identity and security and abundance. And it's sort of, you know, figuring out how to live our lives creatively so that, you know, you don't necessarily have to quit your job and pursue art full- time, which I don't recommend. It's really hard to do. But it's more about, you know, making choices that fulfill your life and then also meeting like-minded people and having a community of friends for three weeks and beyond. I also am going to be teaching a writing the body workshop in May. And again, this is all the stuff that you can find on my website. But ultimately, I am a creative person selling wares. Don't you have like an email list or something? Oh, so I have a newsletter. I hate self promotion. All right. Newly sober is the

Substack newsletter that I wrote through my entire first year sober. I'm currently taking a break from it because, wow, thinking about sobriety 24-7 is exhausting. And I would like to pursue other projects like this workshop that I'm about to go do because I'm working on a book-length manuscript. And so if you are newly sober or interested in sobriety or have someone who has experienced the sober experience, head on over to Substack and read Newly Sober. I wrote every week. And so, you know, when I was newly sober, I was reading all these memoirs and they were all, you know, alcoholism focused and from five years out. And I felt frustrated by that being a marijuana addict. And I was like, where are people who are newly sober writing? And I realized that no one newly sober was writing because their brains are mush and

no one wants to hear from us. But I did it anyways. So you can check that out. You'll see everything that I experienced in my first year. And you can subscribe there. And I will have your email and update you on courses and things like that. But also when the newsletter's live, you'll get new newsletters. Hey, I'm looking at a Twitter comment that I think is actually really interesting.

Scott says, legalization gave her a positive foundation to make the decision to quit on her own. Yeah, we would agree with that. Then they were calling the stoner holiday a derogatory term. Okay. I mean, that's what 420 is, isn't it? Yeah. It's also Hitler's birthday. Which would you prefer?

Oh, that's interesting. But I think his point is well taken. One of the areas, the reasons I didn't stay very active with Kevin and his organization, I've always been very agnostic about the laws. I don't feel like that's my position. Now, you legalize things and people get hurt. That's what happens. But laws are about what the people want. Well, and I think that's a really good point because I think I'm protected by the fact that it's legal. And I was carrying weed on me all the time. I'm also a white person, so that also works to my benefit.

I do benefit, and that is a privilege I benefit from. And yeah, I'm in the same way. I don't legally, like I'm glad that you know less people are being incarcerated for it but i don't yep again i'm just like and for the people that it helps you know who actually are using it sort of medicilline or whatever yeah and that can definitely happen but i also think that you know the messaging is what's problematic and it's it's almost it's almost to the point. It's the lack of truth. That's what I mean.

Truth is in short supply in this freaking country right now. And this is just one of the many topics for which there has to be a narrative and not truth. I am so weary of narratives. You can't imagine. We need to be able to access and discuss the truth. And guess what? The truth is extremely difficult to get at.

It takes quite a bit of dialogue and conversation and time thinking before you get there and you can only approximate it you can't ever get right quite to it what do you mean about narrative because like as a creative writer i'm you know i craft narrative i understand truth uh i understand but but the fact that like in biology there are no narratives there's no narratives there's just mathematical probabilities and things and so when you start seeing narratives immediately, you know, well, that's okay if you can make an approximation of the truth with it, but narratives often obscure the truth. I mean, just think of the narratives on... I'm going to talk about it in a second. I'm going

to talk about the narratives on the wet markets versus the lab the lab leak. Those are, those are people get stuck in the narratives rather than looking at the science, looking at the data, trying to figure out what happened. And, and then the narratives become labeled and politicized. And this is just a disgusting function of what's happening in our time. Would you say that the narrative is rhetoric based or just like in terms of

like, I guess I'm trying to understand what you mean by the word narrative, because I'm not, I'm not privy to anything that you're talking about. Yeah. I, when journalists focus on the story and not the truth, I am, I am mortified. Okay. Because the truth is what matters, not the story. And unfortunately you end up with the Gelman amnesia from people focusing on the story, the story, the story, because again, like in biology, if they're, if they're telling a story about biology or medicine,

there's not likely to be anything, any truth in it. But can you tell a story based on the objective path? Yes. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. You can, you can tell a story. But isn't that the point of journalism? That's my point is it should be about just reporting the truth. And if you stay, if you don't focus on that, I don't mind them creating stories to help just reporting the truth. And if you don't focus on that, I don't mind them creating stories to help you access the truth, I don't mind that at all.

But if you're focused on the story and not the truth, then we got a problem here. So that's what I'm worried about. Maybe, I'm glad you're asking me this question, maybe it is the transcendence of story where it actually becomes the truth and it detaches from the actual truth. Yeah, because I guess I push back on the idea of narrative being inherently evil because I

think part of my work is helping people tell their story, tell their narrative. That is based on truth. I'm a thousand percent for the psychological benefit of telling a human narrative because it gives you a sense of identity and purpose and, you know, make sense of things. I believe particularly early in any kind of recovery, creating a cohesive narrative of your life is critically important. I totally agree with that.

I think what you're, and again, I'm glad you're asking me these questions. It's the transcendence, it's the preoccupation, it's the excess. And that's generally the problem with everything these days, the excess. Would you say maybe perhaps like the narrative that gets told over and over again so much so that it becomes a script

rather than you know truth eliciting in personal thought based on that truth kind of thing i i think we should you know you and i have talked about this more in person kitchen table yeah yeah exactly but but there is there is good in telling stories and creating cohesive narratives. There's also some risks in it. And we live in a time of risk when people take these stories, equate them as directly true, and then put weird political spins on them. And that's where people get into trouble. Okay. You'll see.

I'm going to talk about that in just a minute. I'm going to dip out because that's not where I'm going to live. Right. Thank you all. I'm not over. I'm not done. And I'm going to hopefully maybe even in just a minute. I'm going to dip out because that's not where I'm going to live. Right. Thank you all. I'm not over. I'm not done. And I'm going to hopefully maybe even take some calls here in a second. Thank you for having me.

Pleasure being here. So proud of you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. Couldn't have done it without you, truly. Yeah. I just, I want to thank you for being a soft place to land and being an incredible resource throughout this entire experience.

Yeah. I love that. I love the fact that I had something to offer. Well, I was full circle because I was avoiding it my entire life. I know turns out i had something to offer yeah which it's it's an incredible privilege and you've used that well you've you've come to me for really fine points on recovery because most of it you've done yourself so thank you so uh all right we'll take a little break be right back with a little diatribe and maybe some goals see you bye i think you know how much Susan and I love our Genyacel skincare and how easy it is to try our one-of-a-kind customer packages

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Again, visit birchgold.com slash D-R-E-W. All right, so we are back. i'm watching you all on the restream and of course over on the rumble rants as well we'll just see what you guys are thinking about susan you were in on the ramps rants right how was how are things there good anything i should be addressing hey we're listening okay thank you for listening uh thank you jahep he's in there jahep uh. All right. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the lab leak hypothesis versus the wet market. And I think it is a case in point of how we should all be approaching so many of the goofy controversies around COVID. And the fact that there have been excesses on both sides, one side attacks and condemns and judges and then demands that you line up with their point of view.

The other side then withdraws and goes down into silos and rabbit holes and tries to figure it out, but is getting paranoid and feeling angry and attacked. Those are the two worlds we lived in now and making it very difficult to be able to get at the truth, as I was just discussing with Paulina. So I really believe that this is an opportunity to sort of be more objective and scientific about a topic, and we should be applying it to vaccines. We should be applying it to post-COVID. Remember, Dr. Kelly and I disagree about some of the things like excess deaths and whether there's sudden deaths and whether there's not, and whether there's certain amounts of cardiovascular arrhythmias and these sorts of things,

are those actually on the increase? And if they are, is it the vaccine? Is it COVID? Is it COVID plus the vaccine? We need to very carefully answer that question. What has bothered me is because of the excesses on one side, you're not even allowed to look at it because the possibility that might be something negative about the vaccine in there, even though the reality, it might be all caused by COVID. This is the problem. This is sort of where the problem is. So let me take you through my thinking about the lab leak hypothesis and where that's at. So we've had these Twitter files where you see these scientists talking about the structure of the virus, particularly certain base pairs, where the furin cleavis site is, the certain sort of

stability of the base pairs around, of the proteins around the amino acids, rather, around the furin cleavis site, such that Eddie Holmes says in this email change that there's like an 80-20 probability that this is a lab leak. We have Christian Anderson, a Danish virologist, evolution biologist, speculating maybe it's a 70% probability. They go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and the email chain then seems to end. And then there's a week of silence. And then the Nature article comes out. And you see Dr. Fauci touting the Nature article at the podium, which was an article that substantiated the wet market hypothesis. And then people start attacking the lab leak hypothesis and calling it a conspiracy theory, rather than saying, no, the preponderance of evidence suggests a wet market source, and we don't have good evidence yet, maybe we will,

of a lab leak source. So that's where the trouble started. Now, what we know now, by the way, so now we have another sort of FOIA document, I believe it was, or it was actually, maybe it was from the Justice Department or the Department of Energy, whatever it was. It was another document that chose Dr. Fauci, essentially directing scientists to go publish this article. So it looks like he has gone silent on the lab leak, directed the scientists to publish an article. They do so, and that becomes the rallying point that they stick to, and they start condemning. The mistake was condemning anybody that had an alternative opinion. And by the way, blame the press for this more than I blame Dr. Fauci. They were the ones calling it conspiracy theory and all this nonsense. So

that's what set up the controversy. People politicized a scientific endeavor. Now, Defunct the Bunk, very kindly spent some time sending me some podcast and some documents, including the Nature article itself, which I read very carefully, and a podcast with Christian Anderson and Eddie Holmes, these guys that actually were speculating that it was possibly a lab leak. When you hear their actual, and these are very legitimate scientists and reasonable dudes, when you hear their description of what was going on at the time, they were struggling, they were going back and forth. Eddie has said that when

you see the non-redacted conversation, you will see how sort of uncertain everybody is. And then they get to the point where they start looking at the actual virus. They start looking at the bats. They start looking at intermediate zoonotic organisms. They start looking at MERS and SARS-1 and how same time of year, same issues, same manner in which it evolved, very, very similar. And they started finding viral particles in the drains where the animals were eviscerated and cleaned and whatnot. And they had epidemiological data showing that the outbreak moved out from the wet market towards the Institute of Virology, not away from the Institute of Virology. I'm sketching out some of the basic things that

we're seeing. And there are other fur and cleavage sites and other viruses, even other coronaviruses. So these were not smoking guns by any means. And the reality is that when you really hear these guys lay out their story, which is what they published in the Nature article, the preponderance of evidence falls clearly on the side of the wet market. It just does. That's just where it is. Now, it's all – what's this? My brain isn't working right now in terms of sort of evidence. What do you say?

That's not direct evidence, but anyway, so adjacent evidence. Circumstantial? Circumstantial evidence. Thank you very much, Caleb. It was not smoking gun. It was not conclusive. There was not proof, okay? But there was a lot of circumstantial evidence. By the same token, there were three cases of viral pneumonia at the Wuhan Institute of Technology in November, December. And China immediately clamped down on everything. So A, people weren't able to get animal specimens quickly and properly to see if there were really any animal infected with the virus. So they lost the opportunity to do it, which they had with MERS and SARS-1. Again, remember, MERS jumped out of camels. And these things do spill into humans. It happens. Okay.

Who was testing the animal blood from the drains? Was it that lab? There was, no. There was a couple of scientists. I don't know. They are referenced in these conversations I heard. I don't know what their job was. They were virologists in the area. I don't think they were associated with the lab necessarily, but they probably worked with the lab, that's for sure. And they certainly were all silenced by the Chinese Communist Party. Remember. Shocking. Yeah, shocking, right?

So back to the lab, the virology lab, the coronavirus virology lab, even Li-Ming Yang says it's very unusual, very almost inconceivable that something got out of that lab the way it was being managed. Can happen, does happen, but so people have to kind of put that into their thinking as well. But if we find out that those three cases were coronavirus, that's proof it came from the lab. That's it. We pretty much have proof at that point. I mean, it's not categorical proof, but you pretty much, that is much more categorical than any of these other circumstantial sorts of accumulated evidence that they have. This is a smoking gun, so to speak. So my bet is that the FBI and the Department of Energy has information about those three people. That is my bet is that the FBI and the Department of Energy has information about those three people.

That is my bet, because I don't see how they could otherwise be so concluded, make such definitive statements about the source of the virus being the lab leak. My point being, these things are complicated. They're nuanced. They're not political. People who don't know anything about these should not have been pouncing on each other about what their opinions are. We should be waiting for an opinion to emerge. It's uncanny. It's bizarre. And people should... I'm trying not to be hubristic. I'm trying not to use the F word. I'm trying not to be too extreme. But they should not be, try not to be hubristic or certain yourself until you get these things sorted out.

The reality is, Dr. Fauci apparently kept silent during all of this, didn't direct anybody anything except that when the evolutionary biologists presented their data, he said, why don't you put that in a paper so we can have something to point at and people to read about so they can understand what we are thinking.

As simple as that. Now, one of the things that was so uncanny about that week of silence between the email chain ending and the Nature publication, it's virtually impossible to do that. So how did that happen? Well, the way it actually happened was it wasn't a peer-reviewed paper. It was a correspondence. The correspondence was actually issued five weeks prior because five weeks prior is when they had the phone call

where they discussed this evolutionary biology. It was a correspondence that was actually much longer than what they printed, and they edited it down, and that's what's now in the paper as a correspondence. It is possible that that could be done in a month to six weeks. Seems rather fast to me. That's a little suspicious and weird,

but again, this was an emergency. A lot of people were trying to run around done in a month to six weeks. Seems rather fast to me. That's a little suspicious and weird. But again, this was an emergency. A lot of people were trying to run around and get information out there as best they could. So it kind of makes sense to me. The point is you don't have to put a nefarious spin on it. However, the one thing I have been consistently concerned about is how our scientists have relied on the opinion of their Chinese counterparts. And my sense is from talking to all these people that you're not supposed to talk to, by the way, somehow I'm a criminal for, for talking to people that have been, uh, silenced. I've learned something from every single one of them. Don't agree with most of them. Don't

agree with a lot of what they say. I have learned something from every person. One thing that is coming out of this for me is that our scientists and people that took advice and opinions from people who were under the scrutiny of this Chinese Communist Party did not understand the culture of the Chinese government and the manner in which the Chinese approach things like this and how they think of us. I just don't think they quite get it. I don't fully get it.

It's just it's coming into focus for me and it doesn't look good. That is the one thing that I think explains. Remember how I'm always like trying to understand how this happened? How could this be? What's going on here? That to me is the one thing that explains how things got so severely adulterated. Now, whether China was actually here monkeying with the opinions through social media and otherwise, which is what resulted in us being so insane, histrionic, and frankly unjust in how we were labeling and attacking people for having just an opinion.

I don't know. But that certainly is an interesting question. So, Susan, does that make sense now? Did I lay that out in a way that you could kind of get what I'm talking about? And do you understand why? And I can understand why you don't understand the culture of China. It's even, I studied it in college and I still didn't understand it. It was very difficult. And whether Li Meng-Yan is completely accurate in her observations and what she's telling us, I don't know. But she did help me understand what it was like to be a virologist in Hong Kong. It's hard to believe they just treat people, humans in the whole world like cattle and they don't take responsibility for what they did. What I got from Dr. Yan and others is that much the way we consider defending your land and defending your family and maybe speaking out against depression and whatever, patriotic, in China, patriotic is submitting yourself to the collective. That's the patriotic. And what happens in that submission is you disappear,

or you get moved, or you get destroyed. Who cares? It's your patriotic duty. And that is not the way this country is constructed. And I think it's not right, with a capital R. Not right. I'm humbly. So that's the piece that seems to be missed. And when you can do that to other people, when the ends justifies the means and people are used as a means to an ends, horrible things can happen. And we may have been being treated as a means to an ends. Think about that. We being the scientists and the people that came back and took, again, excessive positions that have been problematic to this day. People in medicine. Yeah.

Sad. So am I, is that clear? You understand? You were kind of railing on me a little bit today that I was falling victim to some propaganda or something. The wet market stuff. Do you understand what I'm saying, though? You get my point of view?

No, I get it because it could be from either or, but I don't know from the ever all the other evidence we've learned points me in the direction of labs sorry there isn't there there is some that's just but i'm not a medical professional or a lot of the stuff we were pointing out was the was the um some of the biology of the virus which was not we weren't that wasn't correct we were looking at the email talked about that yeah we looked of the virus, which was not, we weren't, that wasn't correct. We were looking at the email chain. Kelly's talked about that.

We looked at the email chain, which has an explanation to it. And we looked at the Nature article, was completely reasonable. I mean, there were all these things that we were pointing at and going,

ah, what's going on here? I don't know. That looks so suspicious. Something you have left out though is that this government is not exactly as transparent as it could be.

So it's not just the Chinese. Well, it's people creating narratives to serve their political ends. That is disgusting, humbly. Kimberly, let's hear what you have to ask here. We're taking calls again. Kimberly. Hi.

Hey there. I was not expected to be brought up so quickly. I was just kind of taking in the conversation. I left off where you guys were going on about the different hypotheses. Is that what the topic is today specifically? No, no. Just before I ask my question? No, no.

We were actually talking about cannabis. My daughter was addicted and she was telling her story. Then I had some thoughts I needed to get off my mind. You can ask Dr. Drew anything. Now you can ask me anything. Okay, perfect. So thank you so much for that because on this side, I can only hear – I only heard it up to the point of the hypothesis theories that you guys were talking about.

Got it. So thank you so much for allowing me to come up. It's really exciting to see people like you here because I was in the beta of Twitter spaces when we first launched two years ago. And we only had about 30 people doing these conversations. So there was a lot of echo chambers, you know, happening as you can imagine. So, um, I love that you guys are doing this so that there's more people can learn from a broader perspective. And, and thank you for that. So I guess I'll keep it quick here. If it's an ask me anything. I brought this question up a couple years ago, when I started Twitter spaces, I was working with the Twitter

crew, the research crew on doing different topics, throwing out seeing what was working at that time. And one of the topics that I brought up at the time that they just didn't have a lot of information for me to gain any information about was this idea of the sober curiosity movement. I wanted to ask you that question because I had different people that knew what it was. Some people had different ideas of what it was. And we had a lot of people who came in and were talking about that. And so I didn't know if you had heard about that, the sober curiosity. Yeah, Kimberly, I've heard of it, but I'm never quite clear what people are talking about. And sometimes I think they're just talking about optimal health.

Like, you know what I mean? Is it healthy for me to drink alcohol? Maybe I should just not do it because it's healthier. That's sort of always what it felt like to me. Is it that? No. Well, it could be. I mean, we're here. We're talking about diversion. That's sort of always what it felt like to me. Is it that? show. So basically sober curiosity for the grander perspective is for people that realized that, um, that we had become like an alcohol type based, uh, culture where it was like happy hours were

the thing. And millennials, especially we're going out drinking a lot more than, um, they felt like they should. And so instead of saying, I'm just going to quit alcohol altogether, it was, so I'm going to be sober curious. So my question when underneath this umbrella is, because I want to, when I have these talks and I have these big groups, I want to make sure the wording makes sense. So from a psychological standpoint, should we be saying it's sober curiosity or should we be, you know, maybe labeling it something else? Yeah. Basically you're just wanting to drink less. Cause I think the word sober is where I'm having a problem. Yes. I think that's, I think that's your problem word.

I think it's sober is the problem, not the curiosity. It's, it's exactly what I thought it was, which is people who are noticing they're using a lot of alcohol. It may or may not be a problem. It may not be, it may or may not be a condition, but they're in this contemplative phase of alcohol. It may or may not be a problem. It may or may not be a condition, but they're in this contemplative phase of change. Like, is this in my best interest? Just think for the fact that when you look at young adults and adolescents, every adverse health outcome you can measure, you find alcohol. Whether it's unwanted pregnancy or in accidents

or fights or STDs, it's always alcohol, alcohol. So even if I don't have a drinking problem, alcohol has an effect on my life. And by the way, alcohol is a poison. Alcohol is a carcinogen. I'm certainly interested in my diet and all these things I should be paying attention to. It's fun. I like it. I maybe even enjoy the taste of it. So how do I reconcile these two things? That's one camp. And the other camp is, hey is hey my dad was an alcoholic I've noticed I black out a little bit and I start to have momentum with alcohol and I like it a lot better than other people maybe I had to think about slowing this down which is really before the alcoholism kicks in okay so people with the alcoholic genetics as my daughter

talked about a little bit earlier they can be in an alcoholic phase but not be out of control. So they're kind of alcoholism light. It's having effect. It's not necessarily positive in their life, but they have not lost control. And it does a lot for them as far as they're concerned. So they're trying to balance not losing control and not losing their relationship with alcohol. That's a more treacherous thing not everybody can do that uh but that is more that is more legitimately sober curious that should i try to be abstinent what it's like when i've been abstinence and a lot of people are doing that kind of thing burt kreischer joe rogan they all do these sober

octobers and things and so there's many, many different versions of this. And then finally, there's alcoholism. There's full-on, diagnostically diagnosable full alcoholism. And that person is trying to get to the point where they're willing to get sober. They're in another contemplative phase, which is, I don't really want to do this. I'm out of control. but I make, they make deals with themselves. They, they do all kinds of screwy things, anything other than get sober. And so for that group, sober curious is not a great thing, but they all kind of go through that phase. So it's not as though it's wrong. Um, and maybe if you can bring them into a little community and start to identify that group as needing something more, then you've really helped them. Does that all make sense? Awesome. Thank you. All right. Yeah. Because, and I'll wrap my plane, I'll land my plane here because I know you have many callers. Please.

The biggest picture for me was, so I was doing making mocktails. I just like making mocktails with Kimberly kind of thing. And people kept writing me, what's the point of that? And I really spoke to the idea and maybe, you know, you don't spend a lot of time on this, but I, I was recognizing it. A lot of people that were in this sober curiosity movement were saying, it's not always the alcohol that I'm wanting when I go out. It's the idea of being social, having the drink in my hand. And so we were doing the mocktails to replace that at baby showers, weddings, giving that option. So I just wanted to know your thoughts on that.

The point you know, what's the point with being healthy? What's the point? What's the point with not using a carcinogen on a regular? I'm not using a carcinogen on a regular basis. What's the point? So good. No, these are all these are all great. Thank you. You bet. Thank you, Kimberly and appreciate it. These are all little cool kind of things that people can do if they want. That's all.

I mean, these make perfect sense to me. Let's see. Hang on. I'm trying to get to the callers here. Excuse me for looking through this stuff. Let's bring – this is full stack beauty. There you are. Okay. Beauty you are. Okay.

Beauty Fullstack. Sorry here that I'm having to look through everybody's. Go ahead. I only have it as Beauty up there. We're going to wrap up in a few minutes, so I'm trying to get through as many calls as I can. So Beauty, you got to unmute yourself. I don't speak English thank you

that's not going to work very well I just came upon another physician here would love to hear his thoughts let's bring is it Theodore Theodore? Theodore.

Hello. Hey there. Oh, hi, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to say that having some experience working with biosafety, how easy it is to make a mistake. And kind of from an Occam's razor point of view i always thought it was the lab me too but i did have i did have two questions yeah wasn't america funding gain-of-function research at this very wuhan lab well this so there's also also wouldn't the d if that's true wouldn't the dna of the virus show those gain-of-function changes? And I'll turn my mic off.

Okay. So, yes, and I had thought both were true. It seemed sort of, like you said, Occam's razor, the most simple explanation, the law of parsimony. It's what John Stewart said. There's a lab there. There's been a coronavirus outbreak. What are we going to do? Well, let's ask the coronavirus research lab up the street.

Then, of course, it was funny. And thank God we had our comedians back again, ringing in. But I agree with you. People make mistakes, and they made a mistake, and something happened. That makes perfect sense to me. And in terms of what's in the genome of the virus, it could go either way. At first, it was really looking like it could not have gone through animals, but they were able to find sufficient intermediaries and sufficient stability of certain

of the genetic material for it to at least be possible. very similar. This was the part that they really leaned on, very similar to how SARS-1 evolved. So that was sort of, again, the evidence, the circumstantial evidence that they were leaning on. So my point is all the circumstantial evidence does kind of go to the wet market, so I can understand now why people sort of look at that as a high probability,

but you've got to stay open to the lab leak hypothesis to condemn the lab leak is, is dishonest. It's frankly dishonest. And like you said, shit happens. Theodore, does that help you? Well, yes. And it's not inconceivable to me that it could have gone from the lab to the wet market to everywhere else. Of course. And I think that— It would look the same. I 100% agree with you. And that's why when I hear some of these evolutionary biologists make those points, I realize I'm listening to an honest person who's thinking objectively.

Now, as far as the gain of function or whatever the hell was going on there, something went on with the EcoHealth Alliance. Something went on there. And there seems to be some obscurity there. And I don't know what, I bet it's going to be much more complicated than we know. And I think there's a general note that I would give to my public health officials is trust the American public. Stop obscuring stuff. Stop obfuscating. Stop pretending as though we can't manage information. This is people that get mad at me for putting people on our show who have opinions that are alternative because people can't handle that. It's going to inflame people.

People can make decisions. Let them make their decisions. Give them the information. They'll make it on their own. It takes a while. The problem is we can't get the information out there because people are so encamped and we need to just talk dispassionately about these things. That's democracy.

It's science too. We need to sort of listen carefully to everybody. Why can't we just listen? If it wasn't for Twitter, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'm a little scared that we're only the next disaster away from another

black hole of information. You're right. You're right. And I think that to me is the big, the thing that has been exposed is there are very significant weaknesses in our public health system, both in terms of their fiat authority and emergency, which should be checked in some fashion, and the fact that they are using marketing and information distribution models from the 1970s, maybe the 1980s. The AIDS pandemic is their model, and this is not that time. This is not that time. The more you obscure information, the more the silos develop, and the more people get paranoid. Give them the information. I worked in a psychiatric hospital for 30 years. When people were paranoid, you just had to be straight and honest with them and reassure them. If you were hiding or, God forbid, planning to do something like,

let's get a group together here and make sure that so-and-so gets in his bedroom, they immediately pick up on that and it makes them paranoid. So thanks, buddy. I appreciate that very much. Everybody's paranoid now. Wait a minute. I removed from speakers. There we go. All right.

Here's Christy. Let's get her in here real quick. And then we're probably going to wrap this thing up. Yeah. Go to Ask Dr. Drew for updates on shows and guests at Ask Dr. Drew. And Christy, there you are. Hey, Dr. Drew. How's it going?

How did I do with that explanation of the lab leak versus the wet market? Thanks for asking. I thought, awesome, I actually have a question to jump off of Theodore that's along the same lines. Okay, go ahead. Thanks again. Oh, I just wanted to say, as a little guy and a scientist, I'm also getting hit with people making demands that I make statements that are through a political lens that they want me to

filter the science through, and I've had enough. Yeah, it's enough. And I'm sure they want you to stop saying and speculating in things that may end up being true. They may end up being true. That's how we get to the truth. Oh, my God. Anyway, I'm so angry about this. Don't let them shame you. All right. Thanks. We still have the FOIA in process,

but that wasn't the reason for my call-in. I requested two years' worth of batch data, and I requested the guts of every batch analysis for the last two years from Pfizer. This will be interesting. So another scientist on deck waiting to dissect that. Oh, fantastic. But my question was, oh, it's going to be fine.

It was just graphs. So just no physical like bladder guts. These graphs are very difficult to analyze though. Yucky. I don't want to get, it'll be fine. All right. H5, H5n1 like we like uh so my worry with h5n1 what theater was saying and what you were saying is that we know that it has

infected humans uh the avian flu h5n1 but it was direct contact and that it has a 60 percent mortality rate on it and my worry and i don know about yours, is that no one can trust the media anymore. And if it does fully go to human, it's going to lower in the, not the infectivity, but in the virulence and how much it harms people. Or maybe somebody is going to, listen, one of the, I forgot which scientists I was talking to, but somebody said they'd had, I think it was Li Meng, had contact with scientists in China and they said they were crying. They were so upset about what was being done to extremely problematic viruses. And I immediately, I thought Lassa or Hanta or Ebola or H5N1. Those are viruses that if they do not have to allot to, they could make them.

People don't understand the difference between a 5% or a 2% fatality rate and a 60% fatality rate. This is mind-bogglingly different. So I'm with you. I'm afraid of what might happen, and I'm afraid of how we respond if something like that happens. My worry is not about yours. I have a case of N99, some serious N99, and I have some PPE on hand because I'm worried that, okay, masks are over, everything's over, and if H5N1 hits, we are going to get caught with our pants down on that one and people won't know what to believe. And you're saying if it starts to be transmitted via aerosol, right? Yeah. And it'll probably go down to like even 10% virulence will be a,

a wipe out of humans. I don't want to think about that, Christy, but thank you for bringing it up. Sorry for the happy Tuesday. Get those FOIA documents. Let's see what's going on with the vaccines we do have, all right? Thanks for your time. You bet. Thanks for everything.

Thank you. Thank you. All right, everybody. Thank you for welcoming Paulina to this stream so kindly and responding to her and your great questions and for listening to me today and my little diatribe that I put through there. Susan, any last minute thoughts? And Caleb was laughing at me much of the time. Caleb, you have anything you wanted to add here?

Caleb thinks you're funny. I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that you really keep yourself together and you try to explain everything and you research. And when you're being told you're wrong, you try to make sure that you aren't when you're being told you're wrong you try to make sure that you aren't wrong or you are wrong and you're willing to listen and change which is something i don't see certain people doing i don't see anybody doing it and the attack

it's it is it is how you do things it's how we get to the truth the attacking and the leading of the witness and the the shouting and the you should be ashamed and I used to like you before, you know, I used to respect you. It's like my mom used to say, you know, keep it to yourself. You know what I mean? Put the facts out. We live in this weird world where people feel they have to have their opinion has to be impressed on the world. And fortunately, you don't do that. And I appreciate that.

Well, I'm trying to help. And part of trying to help means getting it right. I don't think people that were tagging you are necessarily wrong. You're right. I mean, I try to see both sides too. Yeah. But it's when the shouting starts that I just don't. I think the funk sent me, spent time, answered my questions and sent me some really good

materials. I appreciate that. So whatever he says. Because he feels safe around you. You know, you're not going to go after him. Maybe I will, but I have no reason to. And I appreciate him taking the time to send me some stuff. And it really was very, very useful.

Although he's putting up some stuff on the internet that's kind of not nice about you. Then he should listen to what I just said and respond to that and see if that's in fact the case. Or maybe you should listen to him and then listen to me and see what's going on. So there we are. Merrill Nast tomorrow with Kelly Victory tomorrow. Pedro Gonzalez. We're going to talk a little bit about

the train derailment in Ohio. Michael Sanger on March 14th. He is an expert in China and has some interesting ideas. William Mackey's. I don't know who that is on March 15th with Kelly Victory on March 22nd. Sasha Latapova. William Maccus.

William Maccus. These are all guests that Kelly has recommended and set up very kindly. And again, for those of you who insist that I know exactly what's going on with these guests, I do not. And I make it, it's Kelly's recommendation and Susan's producing. I throw myself into the mix once these things are presented. Yeah, and we're, you know, we're opening our minds up to what Kelly has to say because she is on the show. Also, free speech is very important in my life.

So I keep producing these shows and we keep throwing these guests at you. And you can, Drew will push back when he doesn't believe it. So the main criticism, I, the only criticism that I've received that I've found legitimate was to push back harder. So I'm trying to refine my positions. And so I can push back. You know what I think lately you've been kind of just letting it fly a little bit. And I know that you, you've had some thoughts about it after the show so yeah you need to definitely speak up when you're not agreeing with it it's hard you know that we have the delay here and i know and you want to be respectful yeah i i have a i have a rule that guests get treated like guests and so yeah yeah well that's just my rule you gotta speak your

mind though my dear well i will try to do so uh and again you need a little more strikes back we have to get that thing fired up get some more strikes back that's fine well some of this stuff some of the stuff that i'm hearing for the first time i don't have an opinion on because i'm right this is kind of interesting what is all this and i don't really get to have an opinion about till i've thought about it for a while or research other responses or other aspects of what they're presenting so it makes it very difficult. Yeah, and there's always a lot of information on these shows with these nerdy guys. It's like they give you so much information, it's like how do you stop and debate in the

middle of their conversation? So it takes a couple days to let it sink in. Yeah, yeah. So we will leave it at that. Caleb, what was I- These nerdy guys. You were laughing at me today about something. No, no.

Two notes to mention here is that one is that people, whenever you have a guest that's controversial and they come back for a second show, you speak up a lot more then because you've gotten a lot more familiar with their points and what they're saying and you have a lot more responses. It's not like you're afraid to cross them. You've thought about it and they come back

and you have responses to what they presented in the first episode. My second point is writers do not write their own headlines, their own titles, their own descriptions. So anyone who's getting mad at you for the titles of these shows needs to come at me and needs to come at Susan. It's Caleb. Okay, come at me. I don't write them.

Get me. I write them. It's Caleb and Susan. I don't pick the guests, but. And by the way, when I was getting picked on, I was not interested in throwing you guys under the bus, you know?

And you are really good at that. So thank you for speaking up. Yeah. But that has to be said that there have been a few, at least a few opportunities where you have gotten some bad press slamming you over something that you actually didn't do. It was someone on your team that put it up or I wrote the title or something, and you have not thrown us under the bus. You have never thrown us under the bus.

I used to write the headlines for Dose of Dr. Drew, and they cited a couple of them. I appreciate you pointing that out because I really wasn't going to do that to you guys. But there's a fallacy here, is that I should be responsible for every word uttered on this show, every headline, every advertisement. And it's just not the way it works. First of all, there's two doctors. There's a producer and a producer, you guys.

And I'm throwing myself into this. And yeah, I guess I'm the public facing part of this, but I am not in any way, I cannot be responsible for every word that somebody says. I just can't. And I can try to do my best to push back and corral and get things again towards the truth and of course, do no harm as best I can. And then Caleb can put up the disclaimer. Keep doing that, Caleb. It's admirable. You've had many opportunities that you could have just said, oh, my team did this, and you didn't. Like, you took the heat for it.

And by the way, I don't, because they're partially right that I'm responsible for what's going on here, but I'm not solely responsible for it. And the thing on, you know, I don't, every time hydroxychloroquine early treatment is brought up, I don't go, I don't believe in that. I don't believe in that. I don't like that. I don't see any evidence for that. I can do that every time it gets brought up. I do not. And because I don't do that doesn't make this a dangerous program.

It makes it a good program. And there's just certain realities about doing something like this that it just is one of the realities of a public discussion. So there we are, that people wish to watch. Watch. And being attacked, you don't always say the right thing at that moment. It's like you're, you're put on your heels and it's like, oh, how am I supposed to respond, respond to this? So it's shocking.

It's disorienting. We were, we were at the montage and I was in the bar having a drink and you were in the bathroom or something. I was invited by someone who, a colleague, who I'd reached out to repeatedly. When my colleagues attack me on Twitter, my immediate move is I reach out and I say, please, let's get on the phone. Let's be collegial.

This is ridiculous. We won't disagree on that much anyway. Let's represent our profession professionally. Well, there's a group of cowards out there that refused to get on the phone, and this particular coward actually hoodwinked me into this ambush. And there you go. That's what's happened to my profession.

It's fantastic. So we will leave it at that and see you tomorrow at three o'clock Pacific time. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving.

Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me, call 911. If you're feeling hopeless or suicidal, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255. You can find more of my recommended organizations and helpful resources at drdrew.com slash help.