Ask Dr. Drew - Pfizer Told Scientist To “Deliberately Slow Down” mRNA Testing To Help 2020 Biden Election, Alleges US House Panel w/ Dr. Sabine Hazan & Ian Miller – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 483

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

•• Fresh Pressed Olive Oil, direct from small farms! Try a free $39 bottle for just $1 shipping at https://GetFreshDrDrew.com/  •• The House Judiciary Committee is investigating Pfizer for allegedly delaying COVID-19 vaccine testing to influence the 2020 presidential election. A former Pfizer scientist, Philip Dormitzer, reportedly claimed senior officials intentionally slowed clinical trials to avoid impacting the election outcome. Rep. Jim Jordan, committee chair, demanded documents and communications from Pfizer and CEO Albert Bourla, covering interactions with federal agencies like the FDA and CDC from March 2020 onward. Dormitzer later denied the claims, but the probe continues. Dr. Sabine Hazan is a gastroenterologist, researcher, and CEO of Progenabiome. She hosts the podcast Let’s Talk Sh*t and authored Let’s Talk Sh*t: Disease, Digestion and Fecal Transplants. A microbiome expert, she consults and speaks on gut health. More at https://x.com/SabinehazanMD and https://progenabiome.com Ian Miller is a writer for Outkick, focusing on science and sports. He authored Illusion of Control: COVID-19 and the Collapse of Expertise and Unmasked: The Global Failure of COVID Mask Mandates. He runs the Substack UNMASKED, ranked #43 in Health Politics. More at https://x.com/ianmSC 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at ⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/sponsors⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ACTIVE SKIN REPAIR - Repair skin faster with more of the molecule your body creates naturally! Hypochlorous (HOCl) is produced by white blood cells to support healing – and no sting. Get 20% off at ⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/skinrepair⁠⁠⁠ • FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠ • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠ 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠) and Susan Pinsky (⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/firstladyoflov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e⁠⁠⁠). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, great guest today. By the way, we're back from our vacation. It was a wonderful trip. We are jet lagged and almost missed the show today because we don't know what time zone we're in, but I'm very privileged to have Sabine Hazan here. She is everything shit. We're going to talk about, let's talk shit with her book and her podcast. And we're going to talk about amongst other things,

the fit of bacteria. And we'll talk a little bit about vaccines and about COVID and the impact it has had on our microbiome. Then Ian Miller, writer for OutKick, focusing on science and sports. His book is Illusion of Control, COVID-19 and the Collapse of Expertise and Unmasks, Unmask the global failure of COVID

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Take advantage of it. Go to fatty15.com slash Dr. Drew to receive 15% off a 90 day starter kit subscription or use code Dr. Drew at checkout for that 15% off or just go to our website, drdew.com slash fatty 15. All right, Sabine Hazan, somebody I wanted to speak to on this program for a while. She's a gastroenterologist, researcher, CEO of Progene,

Progene a Biome, I think that's right. So let's bring Sabine in here right now. Sabine, welcome, good to see you again. Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me. So I want to get the name of your company, correct, is Progena Biome? Progena Biome, because it's from your genes to your biome. Progena.

So tell us what it does, what the company's about. So we're a research genetic sequencing lab. As you know, during the pandemic, we kind of made our debut by finding COVID in the stools. And then from there, we isolated a bacteria that we believe protects you from COVID or viruses. And then from there discovered kind of the microbiome. So that's the purpose of the company

is really to research the microbiome and disease. And we have 61 clinical trials going on research the microbiome and disease. And we have 61 clinical trials going on on the microbiome and disease right now. So, well, let me understand this. So the microbiome followed the company, you didn't found the company because you were already interested in that material. No, I started the company a couple of years prior

because I was interested in the microbiome. I was seeing something when I was doing fecal transplant, the process of taking stools from healthy donors and putting it into unhealthy with C. diff. And what happened was I was really interested in, you know, I had a case of a patient with Alzheimer's who improved after fecal transplant or intestinal microbiota transplant. And I said, what happened there? What microbe causes Alzheimer's or what group of microbes or what signature microbiome is involved in Alzheimer's?

So rather than just bringing a stool product to market and a pharma product, I was more interested into the microbe itself, the relationship of microbes and how does disease occur? We all know disease begins in the gut, but I just didn't know how and why and which microbes are involved. So I founded Progenobion with that. Well, but I want to even step back a little bit from that

and say, you know, you may have known that the microbiome was instrumental, but it's not something that is axiomatically accepted by everybody in medicine. Correct. I knew because I saw something changed with C. diff, right? A patient, it was a first, my first case was a doctor actually that was dying.

And I was the girl that was doing clinical trials for C. diff. So when the clinical trial didn't work and the pharmaceutical product in trial, first of all, vancomycin, flat drill didn't work and then I went to clinical trial route. When the clinical trial route didn't work, I was kind of, I'm not going to let this guy die. So let me try fecal transplant. Everybody's talking about it. And when I saw the colon completely, you know, with ulcerations and mucus and everything,

and then two weeks later, the colon is, the colonic mucosa is completely normal. I said, what did that? How did that happen? Right? And so that's basically what got me into asking the question. How did poop change a colon that has a bunch of ulcers to a normal colonic mucosa? And you've been very focused specifically

on the Bifidobacteria. Well, I wasn't focused on the Bifidobacteria until COVID really. Initially, what I saw with C. diff and what was a progression of the research essentially was, yeah. We should probably tell people what C. difficile is and pseudo members colitis

and step back and tell them that. So C. diff is a condition that people have that they come to the doctor with recurring diarrhea, chronic diarrhea it seems. And if you take the history, they've taken the doctor with recurring diarrhea, chronic diarrhea, it seems. And if you take the history, they've taken some antibiotics in the past, have gone to the dentist, and then all of a sudden they get diarrhea that nobody can fix.

And so C. diff, essentially, the way that we treat C. diff is either antibiotics like flagellum, vancomycin. And when that doesn't happen, we go into clinical trials. When those didn't work, we would put stools of a healthy donor in the colon, precisely in the cecum of a person, to fix the problem. What we realized is that, especially when we started, when we opened Progena Biome,

was really that the microbiome was removed. The diversity, these patients lost their diversity. That's why they were having recurrent episodes of C. diff. So what we were doing was we were giving vancomycin, killing diversity around the C. diff, but we were missing C. diff. And then we kept killing with another antibiotic So it's like having a mosquito in your house and you're taking a machete and you're trying to kill it But you missed a mosquito, but you've destroyed your house. So that's essentially what we were doing

20 years ago and 15 years ago and What fecal transplant does is it takes all the stools from the healthy donor, puts it back into the colon, so you're essentially re-giving a diversity to suppress the clostridium difficile. And that was the big discovery prior to COVID. When COVID came on, I figured, well, I've done clinical trials for pharma. I have a genetic sequencing lab that's looking at the microbiome. We know that, you know, at least I knew that to fight a virus, you need strong microbes.

And actually I wrote the book, Let's Talk Shit in there. There's a mention of bifidobacteria, but it was kind of a hypothesis. It was something that I read in different papers, but it wasn't really concrete until COVID. And what happened was when we found COVID in the stools, we decided to look at the microbiome.

And that's when we noticed that every single patient that had severe COVID was lacking this bacteria, bifidobacteria. And bifidobacteria is found in newborns and it's absent in old people. And so does the discovery of Bifidobacteria, the implications of Bifidobacteria, its functions. And here we are today with my whole, you know, slogan, which is save the BIF, because I'm realizing we're killing more microbes than we can do, you know, so it's crazy. realizing we're killing more microbes than we can do, so it's crazy. So how do you know it's not a secondary phenomenon

that the bifidobacteria is not dropping out because somebody's sick? Oh, absolutely. So you don't, and that's the, you don't know whether the C. diff, I'm sorry, you don't know whether the loss of bifidobacteria happened because they were sick, they took antibiotics, they got COVID, they got a virus, or the virus created the loss of bifidobacteria, or the person is so stressed about having the virus that the increased acidity in the

stomach and the whole digestive tract is all in disarray, which creates the loss of bifidobacteria. So yeah, there's, you know, it's, you know, in medicine, it's never a one thing and we're not sure of anything, really it's all hypothetical. Right. Do you have a potential mechanism in mind? And if you have any evidence for that? Yeah, so I'm coming out with a case report and that's really my case report during the pandemic

because I was the guinea pig. And so I kind of followed myself through the pandemic. And what I think happens is that you end up with a loss of bifidobacteria either because you killed it. So I killed my bifidobacteria during the pandemic. And what I noticed was a, what I call a bifidobacteria bacteroides gap, essentially essentially and I feel that the virus penetrates when that gap, you know, what we call leaky gut is not really defined and it's really

because the microbiome kind of opens up. You've got a loss of bifidobacteria, you've got high bacteroides which we've come to realize is linked with anxiety. So you know when you see that and you see the signature microbiome and of course there's other microbes that are disappearing, the virus penetrates and I'm going to be showing that in my own case where you know I've seen you know viruses come in and viruses go and being symptomatic, not being symptomatic and what it all does. So that's coming, you know, in the future as a case. So you mentioned the leaky gut syndrome

that's a hot topic in many of the sort of health maintenance wellness fields. How do we understand that now? And I, you know, it's, I always, you've already alluded to And I, you know, it's, I always, you've already alluded to this, that, you know, just so narrative, just so explanations are never just so in biology,

in human biology. It's always much more complicated. So what do you make of all that? Well, the first thing is when I stepped into the microbiome, I realized, wow, there's so many discrepancies, right? So many labs out there, so much non-validation, so much non-reproducibility, right? So the first thing I did was analyze my stools with different labs,

and I got different results. Even the same stool sample, different results. So I said, well, how can I understand the microbiome before and after fecal transplant when I improve a disease if I can't even have the same lab validated, verified, and reproducible? And so I created progenobiome really with that interest. I told my genetic sequencing,

my scientist was behind the bracket gene, and I said to him, I said, I want an assay that is valid, verified and reproducible. So if I test myself today, tomorrow, and I don't change anything, it's still Sabine-Hazen. I'm going to be able to recognize my signature microbiome. So that was the first thing was developing that assay. Once we developed that assay, it became complex because we started to realize, wait a minute,

there's no normals. Everybody's different. So how do you compare? How do I compare me to you? For example, you just came back from New York. I just came back from Austin. I ate Mexican food. You ate like whatever.

And so, you know, our microbiomes are probably very different and yet we feel like we're normal. Right? So how is there a normal, how do you capture that microbiome that you're not really looking at the food that you ate last night, right? So that was another challenge. The third challenge was how do you capture all that data in a bioinformatics pipeline? Because even the bioinformatics pipeline were flawed. And you would send the result, the sequences

to one pipeline and you would get again different results. So it really is a methodical analysis of the microbiome. It's really precise. It's really, you have to normalize these samples up to a certain level and you have to really do the clinical, right? So in other words, well, what did I eat? What did I take? Did I take antibiotics?

Was I on medications? And then you compare it to families and then you say, okay, well, let me see what the family looks like. Oh, the family seems to have these microbes and your kid is lacking these microbes that you all have in the family seems to have these microbes, and your kid is lacking these microbes that you all have in the family. What happened? Why is the kid autistic and lacking these microbes, for example, right? So that that was really, you know, the whole

point of progena biome was really to validate to use my experience having done clinical trials for pharmaceutical companies to now bring pharmaceutical companies to say, listen, you guys have been, you know, putting one product after another, but we're never reaching a cure. Can we be a little bit more precise? Can we see what these drugs are doing? Can we see what, you know, the vaccine's doing? Can we see what antibiotics are doing? Could we see maybe one antibiotic improves

by a few bacteria, maybe another doesn't? What does Tamiflu do? What does Repdesivir do to the microbiome? So this is basically the path that I want to get us into to develop these markers and to say, look, this is what autoimmune process looks like. This is what leaky gut looks like. So if you look at the data and to get back to your question on leaky gut, it's exactly

we don't you wouldn't know from the literature because unfortunately 90% of the literature out there and I read it all day long, it's flawed. I can't reproduce it. If I can't reproduce it, it's not valid. So if somebody writes a paper on, well, this microbe is Parkinson's, and I'm looking at my 50 patients that I've analyzed that have Parkinson's, and I don't find this microbe,

we have a problem. Yes. So what is the average person, let's back up to sort of a hilltop view, what does the average person need to understand about this or perhaps do both in terms of healthy people? And I know a lot of people are worried about post-vax, post-COVID, those sorts of syndromes. Well, the first thing I would say is calm down, de-stress.

We don't have all the data right now. There's hope in the horizon. However, beware, and you know, Scott Jackson at the National Institute of Standard, who's going to be hopefully working with me in the future, you know, says a beautiful sentence, which is customer beware. And I think the customer needs to beware that these stool samples that they're doing out

there are just not there yet. And here's the other problem when you see Bacteroides vulgatus, what does that mean? Don't panic and think you need to kill things. You know, I see so many things on social media and influencers that are saying, kill the parasites, kill the parasites. I'm a gastroenterologist. I look for parasites all day long. If I don't see a parasite, I'm not going to give a patient a cleanse because here's the

thing the cleanse will kill the parasite that you may have, but it will kill your microbiome as well. And good luck bringing back your microbiome when you don't even know what it looks like or what it looked like, right? Because it's like a broken glass that you have no idea what it looked like. You're trying to rebuild it. So beware. And you know, there is research. We're coming out with a lot of exciting things, a lot of exciting therapeutics in the microbiome space with autism, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's hopefully. But in the meantime, calm down, make sure you're taking good vitamins, you're going

into the sun, you're hiking, you're eating real food, you're making sure you know where your food's coming from, your farm, your beef. I like regenerative beef myself, et cetera. If you're vegan and vegan does great for your gut, stick to it. If you're vegetarian and vegetarian is great for your gut, stick to it. If you're carnivore, stick to it. I think the thing that we're noticing about the microbiome is we're all different and we all have different diet needs.

You know, I'm from, you know, I was born in Morocco, but I have like, you know, Greek ancestry, Italian. So my diet is more Italian Mediterranean food. The person that's from China probably needs to like look back at where his ancestors were. Go back to the diet that's comfortable from your ancestors that you feel you know doesn't cause you any problems. The moment you start having bloating, gas, you know that doesn't agree with your gut. So pay attention to that. Drew, that means you can have chicken soup. That's about it. So, Caleb, why don't you jump?

Well, you could have probably bagel and lox too, right? Yes, he could. It's actually true. He could. No chives. But it's my brush border seems to have difficulty with alliums now. It's something's gotten way worse as I've aged,

which is interesting. So what we're noticing is the loss of microbes that cause the allergies. It's the loss of microbes that possibly could, and I'm going to say possibly because you know, in medicine you can never say that causes then everybody's going to shoot at me. But I think possibly Celiac Spru is a loss of microbes.

Allergies is loss of microbes. I think all of it really begins in the gut. And I've seen the Parkinson's data, it's rather impressive. I don't know if I was reading your studies or something, I read a couple of papers and they looked really, really very, it's sort of, and reproducible because it was more than one study. But Caleb, you wanted to ask a question

about Crohn's disease because you have a personal experience with that. Hi, Dr. Hazan. So I actually, I have Crohn's disease because you have a personal experience with that. Hi, Dr. Hazan. So I actually, I have Crohn's disease and it was pretty severe. I had to go into the hospital. It was like a whole year long thing right around the pandemic time where it flared up.

Had to get the surgeries and I'm on Sky Rizzi now, which is probably like the fourth or fifth medication I've been on in the past 15 years. But I've been seeing stuff, especially from you, that was reposted by a research group that's looking into something called a MAP vaccine for Crohn's disease, which I think was Dr. Herman Taylor, I believe, before he passed away,

his daughter's picking it up. So are you seeing any sort of signs there that there might potentially be a cure for Crohn's disease at some point by researching that bacteria? And let me pile on, you know, Caleb had a so as abscess. He had all kinds of horrible complications. Worst. Yeah.

He really went through it, but go ahead, Esabe. So I think because I'm doing, I've done clinical trials and I've done all these clinical trials for pharma on biologics and actually I did the study on MAP, which was a quad therapy, quadruple therapy of antibiotics, hitting really mycobacteria perituberculosis. So what we discovered with Crohn's disease was that, or what I discovered, it's not published yet

because it was a small study as I was doing the clinical trial, is that there possibly could be one third of people that have mycobacteria perituberculosis, one third of people may have a genetic problem, and one third of people may have a gut dysbiosis. My own data actually showed that it was a loss of bifidobacteria in new,

so if you look at all the new onset, naive, non-treated Crohn's patients, you'll notice they have zero bifidobacteria. So when you go to that route and you fix early the loss of bifidobacteria, you may have a chance at restoring it. One of the things that I noticed with bovine immunoglobulins, you know, is that, which is the blood of the cow that's spun around the clear clear stuff is that it actually increases the bifida bacteria So if we're lucky in the young people

Those people if you catch them early and you give them bovine you may resolve them I have one case that I published was a young man who was Started on numera the mom didn't want him to be on numera We put him on bovine and right away he went into remission and I've not seen him in five years and you could see his dysbiosis He had a lot of bacteria zero bifidobacteria as we gave him the bovine the bifidobacteria went up the Bacterioles went down this kid has not seen me and in fact the father You know who owned a coffee company, talked about it on a show one day about that case. But we published that case. You know, the other thing

that we're starting to see is really that correction of bifidobacteria can help these folks. Now, there's a population that you cannot get them, that even if you change the diet, you change everything, they need to be on biologics. And then there's a population that the biologics are not working. So you know there's no genetic component. And those are the people that fit very well with MAP because you have to like ask yourself, did those people have, you know, did they eat beef from a cow that had mycobacteria peritroborulosa? So mycobacteria peritroborulosa is is very similar

It causes in cows a disease called Yoni's disease Which is very similar to Crohn's disease and you see these cows they're wasted and they're having diarrhea and basically if you're Unfortunate to have you know And basically, if you're unfortunate to have, you know, eaten the meat from that cow, then you may end up having that problem. So is a vaccine the answer? Maybe. But I tend to think that we really need to be more precise. And I think that's what the microbiome is going to help us.

Because what it seems like you're saying is, so at the beginning, it seemed like you divided people amongst three different groups. And so some people that might be in my group, I may be almost like too far gone in a way where it's like, well, for me to just keep living and just be able to eat food, then I might need biologics. But I'm also thinking, I've read that it also might be something that's genetic that I might be passing down to my kids. And so what should I be doing with the, what is it, bifidobacteria? What was that you mentioned?

I forgot the name. So bifidobacteria is the bacteria, but there is a genetic component to Crohn's disease, right? That's where the biologics are going after. One important thing about that clinical talk. Yeah. Well, yeah, well, my question is, is that, so what could I be doing with what you mentioned, and what should I be doing for my children in advance?

They haven't shown signs of it. You want to protect your kids against developing Crohn's. Right, exactly. If it is genetic, what can I do for their gut bacteria so they don't have to go onto these biologics one day? So you could test, you could join a clinical trial. We have a lot of clinical trials where you could join. We have one on Crohn's disease.

We can test your kids and we can kind of tell you, look, that we're seeing no bifidobacteria and that could help your kids with that. The second thing you could do is you could do genetic testing, obviously, to see. But here's the thing, the majority of people with Crohn's disease that we see in our offices do not necessarily transfer to their kids. You know, the majority. Yes. So and I'll tell you that clinical trial that I did, you know, they came to me to enter

a trial where they got quadruple therapy, right? What I realized after the fact was that, you know, one third responded and that's how it came out that, oh, well, maybe one third has MAP, right? Because it's very difficult to isolate mycobacterial peritroberculosis. And then what happened is the other one third went into having biologics and they were fine on biologics. And then one third ended up developing C. diff. And that's how we discovered because they were fine on biologics. And then one third ended up developing C. diff. And that's how we, because they were taking antibiotics. And so they were on quadruple antibiotic for a long time.

So those patients is who we did fecal transplant on. And out of that population, you know, some resolved and some didn't resolve. So then you have to kind of look at why did some resolve? Was it, did I use the right donor? It happened that, you know, one, if I recall, was on a lot, was taking a lot of nutraceuticals that were the equivalent of antibiotics.

You know, there's so many nutraceuticals out there that are killing the gut. And so no matter how much I was giving him a new microbiome of his daughter, he was not resolving the problem. But another one I treated with a brother, and those are the two cases that come up in my mind, did great and resolved Crohn's disease. So that's how you kind of differentiate. Right, right. And sorry, Drew, I'm taking over your show right now, but she's an expert literally in and resolved Crohn's disease. So that's how you kind of differentiate.

Right, right. And sorry, Drew, I'm taking over your show right now, but she's an expert literally in what I have. So this is very interesting to me. I know, I want to put you together with her sooner now. I don't want to step back. I'm happy to ask you still. They're going to get Ian in here in just a second.

I'll do it. Take my poop. A phrase that not many people can say that phrase and mean it. But before I let you go Sabine, I want to step back a little bit and move away from micro bacteria rather from gut microbiome for a second and talk about what has happened to the medical literature and the editorial process of medical literature. I know you were under attack during COVID and we've seen now things like this guy

from Pfizer Speaker Bureau who pled guilty to dozens of research studies that were faulty or fraudulent. This stuff is moving where we're starting to see and I don't know if you saw the opening video, those of you who are watching before the show started, again, it was Joseph Freiman talking about how inappropriate the way we do medical research and publication, and particularly FDA approval process,

has been. What are your thoughts on that before I let you go? Absolutely true. I mean, there's so much corruption. Look, the company, company the scientist and the investors And investors retracted by hypothesis, you know so when does when in medicine does a Investor of a of a product get to have any say in what paper gets to stay or gets retracted

Right never and when does a PhD scientist? Go to the editor and say we tracked this paper, we found all these problems. Never. It should be my peers. So when my peers who spent their time and basically said, you know, this paper is great. We've looked at everything, put it to publication. and then they go over those peers that are not paid by the way. None of my colleagues that do peer review are paid. Then you have to say what's going on? Who's paying these people to retract?

There's so much corruption. Listen, I'm going to just tell you one thing. At the beginning of the pandemic, nobody paid attention, but because I've done clinical trials, I paid attention. There was an ad from Madonna naked April 4th 2020. Madonna has donated one million dollars to the Bill Gates Foundation for the vaccine. That's already telling people branding people with the vaccine and then you have an article on the Economist with Bill Gates talking about the future of vaccines. April 26th, that should never happen.

The vaccines were not even in, never didn't even go through the IRB. Every ad, everything you do in clinical trials, you have to get IRB approval. So the IRB hadn't even looked at the protocol and they're already branding you and influencing the customer or the consumer or the patient with vaccines. That should have never happened. And so yes, what I saw with Pfizer, I mean, listen, Pfizer's had fines,

GSK's had fines, you know, this is how they get caught. They get caught because they do stupid things like that. That is trying to push a product to market and they ignored the ICHGCP guidelines, which clearly states you cannot advertise unless you have IRB approval, you have to have informed consent. Informed consent wasn't processed during the pandemic. Kids were getting vaccinated at CVS. Still.

Yeah. But before even, before the clinical trials were for kids, kids were getting vaccinated at CVS. I know I saw it in Malibu, the kids were lining up. So nobody gave informed consent to these kids. Nobody told these kids, listen, there's no clinical trials on that. Yeah.

To anybody. There's no informed consent to anybody. It was just, there was no risk or work consideration. Francis Collins said it himself out loud. One of my friends had a pulmonary emboli, she's a photographer, and had a pulmonary emboli shortly after the vaccine. And basically, you know, I said to her,

I go, well, what are you taking? She goes, you know, I said to her, I go, well, what are you taking? She goes, I was on the birth control pill. I go, didn't anybody tell you that you could have a coagulopathy and the vaccines could cause coagulopathy? No informed consent, no history. It's just line up shot. And that was ridiculous. So there is corruption and I hope this administration is gonna get a handle of that I hope they bring back science where we can publish again. I'm telling you I'm gun-shy in publishing You know, I have amazing data on autism. I'm gun-shy. I know I'm gonna get retracted or there's gonna be problems and emails

so You know there's night now there's a group of doctors that call themselves the science guardian and they're going after the people that are retracting and they're looking at all this. So we've assembled and here's the other thing, Drew, and I know you know this, the problem is doctors don't unite. Doctors need to come together and talk and say,

let's come to the tables. You have, and we have to, the pandemic taught us that, that we need to come to the table and look at both sides of the narrative. I could be right. I could be wrong, but we need to talk about it and not say, oh, this person is full of it. And this person's that, by the way, that's why I wrote the book. Let's talk shit.

I said, maybe they'll think I'm full of it or maybe I'll know it, right? But let's talk about it. So that's it. Yeah, I'd rather even avoid the word narrative and just say evidence, that's all. What's the evidence? What's the theory?

What's the hypothesis? And be very specific about how we talk about the materials we review. Samina, I appreciate it. Go ahead, finish your thought. Yeah, no, show me the data. One of my professors used to say, show me the data. Exactly.

Yeah, that's it. I used to, and I used to yell at my residents all the time, just show me the publications too. Show me the data. Just give them to me. Show me the publications. I'll look at them and I'll tell you whether they're relevant to the decision you made.

Of course, now I think to myself, oh, I don't know, maybe there's some alternative opinions out there that I'm not seeing because it's being repressed by the editorial process. But hopefully, as you said, we can get our handle on that. Sabine, I appreciate you being here. I look forward to this conversation for a long time. You can follow Sabine on X.

Sabine, S-A-B-I-N-E, Hazan, H-A-Z-A-N-M-D, Sabine, Hazan, M-Z-M-D, all strung together. And Progenobion, P-R-O-G-E-N-A-B-I-O-M-E, progenobion.com. Sabine, hope to talk to you again soon. Appreciate you being here. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you for your research and work.

Now, speaking of, one of the reasons I wanted to have Sabina here first is my next guest is talking about expertise and how it has been so severely undermined. So we're sort of setting you up for that conversation. It is Ian Miller. He is a writer for Outkick. He focuses on science.

He's authored Illusion of Control COVID-19 and the Collapse of Expertise and Unmasked the Global failure of COVID mask mandates. He's speaking our language. You can follow Ian on ianmsc.substack.com and also i- Ian, I-A-N-M-S-C on X. We'll get Ian in here right after this.

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Again, he's from Outkick, he's a writer, and he has been writing about a lot of the things we've been talking about on this show. Please welcome Ian to the program. Ian, appreciate you being here. Thanks so much for having me, really appreciate you having me on. So I'm guessing as you came to this topic,

a lot of what was happening surprised you. I mean, for those of us that are in medicine and in science, it was just shocking and devastating, but I bet to someone who's sort of coming, I think you sort of came at this for the first time, it must have been bewildering. Absolutely. I think one of the biggest things that I learned

because I came in this really from a data perspective and got really interested in seeing how the data was panning out with all the restrictions and mandates that we were trying with COVID was how little evidence-based practice there is in so many of medicine in a lot of these fields and public health that they were making decisions seemingly without a lot of evidence or data or facts to back it up.

It was just kind of seem that out of a panic and fear and wanting to try something to see if it works, but you can't do that when you're playing with people's lives as we were during COVID. And so it really was shocking to see how little backing they had for decisions they were making. Yeah, no, there was no evidence. These were ideas that were made up on the fly,

like six feet distancing and all this bullshit. It was completely out of the blue. But it's one thing for them to say, well, we're going to try these things and we have some hunch that maybe they're going to work. But to not contemplate the risk reward of what you're doing. And as I said to Sabine a few minutes ago, Francis Collins has said this out loud. Do not contemplate the risk reward of what you're doing. And as I said to Sabine a few minutes ago, Francis Collins has said this out loud.

They made no consideration for the adverse impact of what they might've done. And I've said this as long as I've been doing this show now. When I had residents that would, I'd ask them, what's their justification for any particular intervention they did. And if they say to me, well, I had to do something, I would crucify them.

Because that's how you harm people. You only harm when you don't have evidence or you don't understand what you're doing. And that is what the entire world did. Were you astonished as I was that the whole world followed on our shitty ideas? Yeah, obviously the one kind of exception to that was Sweden.

And if you notice initially, I started talking about Sweden a lot. And then it became clear that Sweden was doing much better than the rest of Europe, much better than we were, despite not having mask mandates, despite not doing lockdowns, keeping schools open on and on.

They just kind of stopped talking about it, stopped mentioning it because it was showing how little evidence they had to support what they were saying. It was the kind of precautionary principle run wild but in the wrong direction. As you mentioned like they've never gave consideration to the trade-offs of what they were doing. That's medicine 101 and there you know nothing you do, no lever you pull doesn't also have another reaction to it and

ignoring that as we are now seeing an incredible amount of harm. I understand also Bulgaria I guess had a very low vaccine update and guess what? All cause mortality is down there relative to everybody else. Is that a smoking gun? I don't know. We've got to ask the questions. How about the fact that no one was allowed to ask,

no one was allowed to engage in the usual back and forth discourse that is associated with the scientific process? It's still going on, is it not? Absolutely, and that's the other part of it too, is that they specifically wanted people that disagree with them to be censored, acting as if it was dangerous to say, there could be another way to do this.

We might not be handling this correctly. And I mean, we've seen the emails with Francis Collins and Fauci saying that we need a swift takedown of the Great Barrington Declaration. Devastating takedown of the Great Barrington Declaration. Which is published by her. Devastating takedown.

Yeah, devastating. Yeah, devastating too. Jay Bhattacharya, who's now the head of the NIH, which is just poetic. It's Shakespearean, but okay. But what do you imagine, as you kind of look at this and sort of wrote about it and tried to document what happened,

what is your sort of perception of what happened? If you were going to sort of tell someone the history of 2020, what happened? That's a great question. I think I would say that we had a group of very egotistical controlled or minded experts quote unquote and politicians that panicked, they bought into fear, they did not listen to evidence that contradicted their viewpoints. And once it became obvious that what they were trying wasn't working throughout the early middle part of 2020, instead of learning from that, admitting they were wrong, changing course, they doubled down and made things 10 times worse.

So it was, I would say it's just a complete waterfall effect of bad ideas leading to bad outcomes and then having people that were too caught up in their own egomaniacal controlled paranoia that they weren't willing to alter course. Yeah, it was weird that they were so paranoid and that they were so totalitarian in their instincts. That was again, shocking. But when you think about someone like Gavin Newsom

who was locking beaches down and filling, any outdoor activities were being essentially, literally constructed over. They put sand over the skateboarding pits and things. His panic and fear seemed not to have been that great. He went out with dozens of friends to the French laundry in a closed space. His panic and fear seemed not to have been that great. He went out with dozens of friends to the French laundry in a closed space.

He doesn't wear a mask at the SoFi Stadium during the Super Bowl. He didn't actually personally seem frightened. He seemed, humbly, to be just doing the opposite of what other President Trump was suggesting at the time. So was there anything of that going on as well? Some were panicked, I agree with you. I think he was also fighting with Florida.

I remember they were saying, you know, why is everything good in Florida? But again, if something, if DeSantis said something, do the opposite. But was there something weird like that going on as well? Oh, absolutely. The hypocrisy, I think, is another really important story that's kind of just been forgotten. I mean, you brought me some of the great example. There was in

the UK, their health minister was having an affair during lockdown and leaving lockdown to go see his mistress. And we had, I mean, so many examples, Stacey Abrams, when she went to go visit that school and she was not wearing a mask and all the kids were forced into masks and a school little kid. And I mean, Nancy Pelosi getting her hair done. I mean, there's just a limitless amount of examples of this hypocrisy. With no kind of acknowledgement and the biggest, one of the biggest problems I had was with the media is pointing out, well, if they're not that scared, why should we be? Instead, they were, you know, they would just kind of move on or ignore it because they

have the same party or whatever they believed in the greater good. But it was really frustrating to see how little they actually wanted to follow their own mandates and how they impacted our lives. And they weren't willing to do it themselves. They weren't willing to have any impact on their lives. Right. The one thing that sort of,

I walked away from all this experience was this notion that I have now that when alternative ideas are being actively repressed, like really people are being harmed for having an opinion, that's a Psi-op essentially, is it not? Yeah, I agree. I think it is one of the, I mean, among the many, many inexcusable things

that happened during COVID, I think the movement towards, well, you can't have an idea because it can make people unsafe. That's a dangerous concept. One of the, I mean, among the many, many inexcusable things that happened during COVID, I think the movement towards, well, you can't have an idea because it can make people unsafe. That's a dangerous concept. I mean, ideas do not make people unsafe and conversations about making people unsafe,

especially when you're talking about the harms that were caused by the policy that they were enacting. I mean, lockdowns were not harmless policies. School closures are not harmless policies. Mass mandates were not harmless policies. Obviously, vaccine mandates and passports. So yeah, you have to be able to have this conversation. So many people with school closures

and mandate harmed so many people. Do you have a theory in studying what's happened here? Do you have a theory about what happened to the whole public health sort of project of public health. It feels like it's became adulterated or sort of distorted in some way that I worry it can't come back from. I have those exact same concerns

and from speaking to people that worked in there in public health at a very high level throughout the pandemic and starting in 2020, it's a lot of groups think, you know, they don't really listen to outside opinions. They get very caught up in what their circle of people think. And obviously it's a very kind of left-leaning profession that didn't like Donald Trump and kind of took the position

that whatever Donald Trump said or did or thought was gonna, they were gonna take the opposite position. Even when he said things that were obviously right, like opening schools. So it's very, I think it's a really disheartening thing that we can't trust them because they're not willing to be honest with us. I don't know.

I just think there's something wrong with, there's some principle, in principle, there's something wrong with how they're approaching their work. Their work should be about advising physicians and advising community healthcare providers. It shouldn't be to be an authority from on high. Now, Caleb, you keep throwing an out kick article up there.

Is that Ian's article? Yes. About, yeah, so Pfizer, house panel investigating Pfizer for conduct around COVID vaccine rollout. Tell me about that. Yeah, so there is a house investigation currently ongoing because there was a scientist that worked in Pfizer,

a very high up advisor during the testing for the COVID vaccine in 2020. And he said to his employer that he went to after Pfizer that he had been instructed to delay test results and take longer conducting the test results because they were concerned that if they released positive results before the 2020 election, that it could influence who people voted for.

And I think it's very clear that Pfizer wanted to get Joe Biden into office. They didn't want Donald Trump to be reelected. And they probably, I mean, it's allegedly, but it seems like they may have purposely delayed releasing the results so that they would come out after the 2020 election had happened, which is what happened.

That's exactly what happened. It's just, when I really start looking at this all again, I just get crestfallen by it. It's so disappointing. And to think what was motivating them and their, and again, these are the same people that then lied about President Biden's Parkinsonism and cognitive dysfunctions and as well,

I don't know what they were hiding about the vice president. We're sort of hearing some of these stories now. And now we're supposed to look at them as heroes writing books about these periods. It really, unless people really have some sort of, people should be going on apology tours and really proclaiming what they've learned from this instead of anointing themselves as now heroic

because they can talk about things that we all knew. Yeah, and nobody wants to take accountability or accept that they were wrong about this. And for politicians, it makes some sense because politicians don't like to ever admit that they're wrong about anything. But when you're talking about public health professionals and experts the only way that you can ever have trust with with the public is to is

to be honest and to tell the truth because people can tell when you're lying and they can tell when you don't know what you're doing I mean Anthony Fauci saying wear anything in front of your face then wear a cloth mask and wear two cloth masks and wear an N95 mask then wear two N95 masks just on and on. I want to talk about masking in a second, but yeah, irrational certitude. This is something I crazed that Joseph Freiman coined. The appropriate approach to human biology in particular,

and biology and science generally, is rational uncertainty. Uncertainty, lack of certainty. We have lack of certainty about everything. I like some of the things that Sabine was saying. She goes, we don't know anything. It's too complicated, but let's try to make some sense of this. And that's rational uncertainty.

If you are certain about anything in science, you are being irrational. Einstein wasn't certain. Einstein was wrong in certain respects. And he had mathematics to substantiate what he was theorizing. And he knew he was uncertain about things. It was the best he could do.

And yet in biology, it is just like trying to predict the behavior of clouds, as I've always said. But I want to talk about masking. Because your masking book, I think, if I'm getting this right, is one of the most popular books out there. So, and I saw a thread on X today where it was showing stupid shit behavior by celebrities during COVID,

and it was all this footage of people taking their phone and doing this while they signed autographs, whoops, while they signed autographs, whoops, while they signed autographs, and pictures them with masks below their nose. Again, the nose is where the virus gets in, everybody. And also where it comes out and it kind of affects people. Let's see what that is. Yeah, oh yeah, and then people with the double bands

around the ear, we knew that the surgical mask didn't work, we knew the cloth didn't work, we knew that if it wasn't tightly fitting around here, you weren't doing anything. And yet people to this day, when you bring up masking, they go, but a million people died. Don't you know that a million people died? Yeah, I know that.

And therefore, I don't want you to make it worse by hurting people with dumb ass policies like school closures Yeah, and if you if you go back and look at what Anthony Vasquez said on 60 minutes in February 2020 That's almost exactly what he said that it could actually make things worse Because people will be touching their faces so much to adjust the mask to make it more comfortable make things worse because people will be touching their faces so much to adjust the mask to make it more comfortable. All of a sudden, two months later, he changes his mind. And obviously that sets off a whole mess of mandates and policies that lasted for years and obviously still lasting today in some parts of California. So one of my favorite examples briefly is that LA County

did a survey in 2021 and found that 95% of people at businesses were complying with the mask mandate and said in their press release, that was why cases were low in Los Angeles. Within three or four weeks LA had one of the highest case rates in the world not just the United States anywhere on earth after 95% of people were wearing masks and they didn't they had kept the mask mandate for months afterwards and threatened to bring it back later so it's just ridiculous. No discourse nobody going hmm I wonder why that is can we talk about it? Nothing. It just comes off the radar screen,

moving on, moving on to the next, frankly, target of misinformation. We're going to start going, it's such a disappointing sort of posture for people to have. Even I'm confused by it, as someone who's supposed to understand human motivation a little bit,

that why people would want so much to tell other people how to live. That is an astonishing thing in the United States for me. Communism. Well, look, the reality is, you know what's interesting to me is I keep hearing from former Russians, formerly under the Soviet system,

talking about how they are inoculated against all this BS because they remember what it was like to be honest. They're not in a Soviet system in Russia anymore. It's not the totalitarian that way. And they were inoculated against propaganda because of it. So they didn't fall for so much of this. Yeah, and unfortunately, I was actually very surprised at how many people

did fall for the propaganda that we were sold here. It really is disappointing. I kind of expected better. I thought more people would be standing up for the mask, saying we're not going to wear masks anymore. We're not going to have these mandates anymore. saying we're not going to wear masks anymore, we're not going to have these mandates anymore, and we're not going to have kids out of school and things like that.

And it didn't really happen to the extent that I hoped that it would. It was very disappointing. So it had never happened. It's interesting, in states that didn't start it, it stayed open and free, but states that went down that path could not seem to change course,

which is maybe there's a lesson there about totalitarian instincts and hysterias. Once they get loose, they can't be reeled back in. I've said a couple of times on this show, I was reading some books about early, sort of 1930s Germany, and the word hysteria came up there a couple of times on this show, I was reading some books about early, sort of 1930s Germany, and the word hysteria came up there a couple of times. And I thought, oh, they were hysterical also, and that's why they went so berserk

in the direction they went. And of course, everybody thinks they would be the one that would stand up to Hitler, and they would stand up to the Nazis, when in fact, you're yelling at your neighbors about not going out and having a barbecue with their family or wearing a mask out of doors, you are the prison guard. You would be the prison guard in Germany. You need to know that about yourself

and you need to check yourself as a result. Yeah, exactly. And we did the opposite of that. And I think we, and not only do we do the opposite, that we encourage people to tell on their neighbors. I mean, Tim Walz in Minnesota, as we all learned during the election, had set up a hotline for people in Minnesota to rat out their neighbors

for not complying with COVID mandates. That's right. That's what we did. Instead of treating people with honesty and telling the truth, it was, let's tell on everybody and, you know, rat on our neighbors. What kind of feedback are you getting on your books? Most of it has been very positive.

Obviously you have some people that disagree but I tried to do a very purposeful job of sticking to data and bringing up the data and showing just here's what it is. Here's what happened, making comparisons. You know, this area that's right next to this area, one had a mandate, the other didn't and they are without a mass magnitude better Well, how can that be true if what we're hearing from Fauci and the CDC is accurate? Obviously can't and you know one example may not be enough

But with the book the goal was to show that there's hundreds of examples over and over again everywhere you look It's not just us. It was in Europe. It was in other parts of the world and You know, we never really had those conversations here and because the media wasn't willing to have them They just promoted whatever they were told and so that was the idea is to kind of go into detail and show We tried all these things. It didn't work and it didn't work anywhere It didn't there's not a single example that people can point to that said. Oh, here's our here's our Masks work and here's and here's why, chart. I mean, there's hundreds that show the opposite.

So what do we do with people that still cling to these notions that either they sort of minimize things by saying, well, we just didn't know we were doing our best or refuse to acknowledge the data as we now understand it? That's a really, it's a really tough question. I think that the only way that you can convince them is to point out, and I do this in the book as well, that pre-COVID, all of our research on pandemics

and how to handle them had showed that masks would not work. The UK had their pre-pandemic guidance, the CDC had their pre-pandemic guidance. They both said masks should not be recommended in a pandemic, and they did it anyway. They both said masks should not be recommended in a pandemic. And they did it anyway. They both said we should have society open with as minimal disruption as possible.

Obviously we didn't do that. So they kind of took all of the planning ahead of time and threw it out and did what they wanted anyway, because of panic and fear. That's right. So it isn't, well, we didn't, you know, we were doing the best of what we knew at the time they did this, they planned for 20 plus years for this to happen. And when it happened, they took everything they planned

and threw it out because they were too scared. The only solace maybe, or the only justification I can find for maybe providing some justification for how some people behaved is saying that somebody like Fauci or people in his camp knew that these were dangerous bioweapons because they'd been doing this research and they had fears of perhaps how far this thing would go

or the extent of the damage it would have given what they knew of the virus thus far. Now, of course, they all deny all that and they stand by the natural source you know, of the virus thus far. Now, of course they all deny all that and they stand by the natural source of the virus, all this nonsense. But I guess that's a possibility that they were fearful of what it could potentially do and maybe it didn't fulfill their worst fears.

And I guess you could say that about anybody looking at the virus, like they didn't understand it, so it just became this bogeyman that they were afraid of. But they should have been able to get that under control pretty quickly. Yeah, exactly. That's one of the biggest issues is, okay, I can see that for maybe a few weeks or a couple of months,

but almost immediately everybody could see. Yeah, everybody could see this was only, this was most severely impacting people who are extremely elderly, really sick already, you know, young healthy people were not affected by this children are not affected by this. And they kept it going for years afterwards years and that's where it really starts to get out of control. And you know, you mentioned it earlier, but it's was very hard for areas and countries that turn these policies on to turn them off again, because there was no off ramp. They didn't have a set path of,

this is how we end these policies. It just kept going forever and enduring places like Florida and Sweden that proved them wrong. So you've written about the failure of expertise or the lack of sort of, oh, Caleb has a question for us about the committee investigating Pfizer

delaying the test results. What are you asking there, Caleb? I don't know what that is. Oh yeah, I just, I wanted to know if there was any new information, because I had read your article and it seems like it covered what's going on, but that seemed quite bizarre that there was an ex-Pfizer employee that was also a scientist

that's out there saying this, then retracting it very quickly, but it's out there. It seems very politically motivated. Is that confirmed or how deep does that go? Well, from my understanding, the company that the scientist went to work for confirmed to the House panel that that is what they were told that this this ex-Pfizer employee specifically stated that he was told by Pfizer to delay the test results to delay releasing you know it's a kind of slow walk everything to avoid impacting the 2020 election he says it's not an accident that he released it after the election was over so I mean he's kind of retracting it but he's

retracting it after it became public and there's potential that it could come back to hurt him a bit. And he apparently asked for a relocation to Canada with the firm as new company. So I mean, obviously it's very suspicious and you know, retracting it now almost adds more weight to it that it seems like that's exactly what happened. And it doesn't make sense because Pfizer probably didn't want to kind of put their thumb on the scale of the 2020 election. And they got what they wanted.

And we had boosters and mandates and vaccine mandates. I mean, Biden tried to get every private business in the country to mandate vaccines or almost everyone. You know, I'm sure Pfizer was very hopeful that that would be the case under a Biden administration, not a Trump administration. And I'm guessing vaccines, that's what I was gonna ask you

before we got off of the mRNA thing, was I'm guessing that that is in your crosshairs now, because you've covered how public health has failed, how the experts failed, how they've undermined their own trustworthiness, then masking, and then you can't avoid the vaccine. That's gotta be your next hill to climb, no? Yeah, and I have written about it a lot.

I think it is, we're still learning a lot. And even though we're obviously several years kind of out of the pandemic, there is a lot of research still coming out about it. We're still finding about long-term effects. We're not gonna know really for several years more what the long-term effects thing is from the vaccine. And, you know, if there are long-term effects, I just wrote a story about how scientists

did it, including Joseph Lottopo from the Florida Surgeon General, in comparison to Pfizer's vaccine in Moderna and found that there was a significant increase in all-cause mortality from people that took Pfizer's vaccine in this massive million, multi-million person sample in Florida. Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa? As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale expertise and innovative payment solutions.

Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. The thing I keep saying is, we know the spike protein is the pathogenic component of the virus. Why in God's name are we not developing vaccines against other components or other aspects of the virus or the whole virus or the nuclear capsid? Why do we continue to push the vaccine

that creates the pathogenic protein? It's, I understand in an emergency, it was the target that they wanted to aim at, it made the most sense, and I get it for, even for a year, but what the hell? You're continuing to push this thing that we know has uncontrolled production in some situations and some individuals

of the worst part of the virus. And no consideration to develop something else. It's just, I can't believe it. It's one thing to keep it on the market, okay, but to continue to push it and mandate it and keep it on the childhood vaccine schedule, mind boggling. Absolutely.

I think there's lots and lots of questions that need answers. We'll unfortunately probably never get them. It doesn't seem like there's lots and lots of questions that need answers. Well, unfortunately, probably never get them. It doesn't seem like there's a really, uh, an appetite to go hard after Pfizer or Moderna for kind of explaining the answers to those questions that you're asking. And I think it's, it really was the mandates were inexcusable and there was no justification for doing it after we knew they couldn't stop transmission,

which was within a couple of months and they kept doing it anyway. And as I understand the, so as long as you're on the childhood vaccine schedules, you have very limited liability if any. And so we've got to get them off of that schedule. If there's going to be any, you know, careful examination of what's going on here. Well, Ian, have I missed anything?

Is there anything else that you're sort of worried about these days or are're focused on? Well, I mean, you know here in California you see the Bay area had several counties last this fall and into this this spring That still had mass minutes in hospitals but I think it's it's still really important to have these conversations and continue focusing on it because there's still a lot of people that refuse to acknowledge what we've learned over the last few years. And this is impacting millions of people even now in 2025, I know it's hard to believe,

but it still is. So I wanna keep talking about it and having these conversations because that's the only way we ever get people to change. All right, so also you can read Ian's Substack. It's ianmsc.substack.com and also follow him on X, enmsc.

What is the, wait a minute, we've got to find a way to, what's the SC part? Trying to figure out how to remember your handles. Yeah, so it's just enm and then I went to USC in Los Angeles. So, just Southern California, that was the reference. So we can't erase the Trojan influence upon you. Got it. And let's see, where else?

People get people to get the book. So read Unmasked. The exact title is the global failure, Unmasked, the global failure of COVID mask mandates. If you wanna learn about masks, I really do wanna look at that book more carefully because I feel like people should be armed with that if they're gonna talk about this topic.

And then finally, illusion of control, COVID-19 and the collapse of expertise, which there certainly has been. And unless we, I don't know how we set things right, except with sort of a lot of understanding and apologies and people copying or shifting their point of view to the point where we can start to speak honestly about these things

and freely about them without any sort of worry about a backlash which is anathema to everything that is required for science. But Ian, I appreciate you being here and I hope we can talk again soon. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You got it.

Appreciate it, Ian Miller. Get those books, please. And we have a very special add-on guest here that we're gonna get into here. Even though you see Susan walking past, you see her diving behind me repeatedly. Of course, I know that you can see her walking past the camera.

You see her back and her head. It's the co-host of Calling Out. As you pretend to be, you should just stand up like that. That looks a little more honest at least. We have a special guest. We're going to get a, all right. We're going to get a report from the P Diddy trial.

His name is now Sean Combs. Sean Combs, he's not changing his name back to Sean Combs. Not P Diddy, but Sean Combs. Because he's being sued by the FADS, the United States. They're making him go by the name he was born with. I so what have you been down there every day, but they are calling him pee Did he pee EE did he after? the recent Urination now we're going to pee pee diddy I see urine diddy did you see that I did not yet

I tried to stay away from this. I told you this morning. Is this pee or can I drink this? Either way, apparently, according to the trial, whether it is or is not, you can drink it. This is good. Emily, tell us about yourself and work with me. So I just, I'm Emily.

You might've seen me. I'm calling out with Susan Pinsky. I just. She's in the lower third here. You got all your information down there. You see that? Oh, now it's on. Thanks, Caleb.

There you are. So I- Where can they find you? You can find me at Instagram and Substack. Emily knows everything. With an IE. Emily. With an IE.

I'm reporting every day I'm going to the courthouse in lower Manhattan for the Sean Combs versus the United States of America. And I just, I'm out of breath because I was running to get here on time because there is so much chaos happening outside the courthouse. Why? Because it's like a mental health asylum.

And you know, that's where I thrive. If you saw the clips I just posted. UC Mill? Not me, but I'm part of everyone's like, why do you keep posting the same? I'm like, have you ever thought maybe I'm one of them? I'm asking. Today was the fourth or the third,

third or fourth day of Cassie Ventura's testimony. They finally wrapped it up. And I saw, was it you or somebody put the judge and retracted something or told them, she said I was basically a sex slave or something. Basically a sex worker. something. Or sex. Basically a sex worker. Yeah, sex worker.

And he was like, don't ignore that. Why did he have her ignore that? Objection. Yeah. Jury, please disregard that last statement. Why? Hearsay. She's saying it about herself.

That's what I didn't under, no one understood. You were in the courtroom for all this? Yeah. Okay. And so if you were to sort of describe what you've taken away from this experience. I mean, it's only week one day five It's supposed to be an eight-week trial

So far People are very split online and in the courtroom every minute people's ideas change like one minute They're like, wow did he's cooked the next minute. They're saying Cassie's cook Why did Cassie get cooked? She's not on trial. Well, people are forgetting this. She's on the prosecution side. Yeah, they're forgetting that this isn't a trial,

Cassie versus Diddy. There's like a ton of witnesses. She's a witness. Well, she's a victim. Yeah, I think she's victim one. And then they have a Jane Doe, but then a lot of the witnesses have been disappearing. So we don't really know who,

we don't know how this is going to go on for eight weeks. I don't get it. So one of the things that you and I have spoken about is how it has desensitized, or we seem to desensitize to these extreme imagery of depraved sexual acts, right? Yeah, basically that's what I've taken away from this so far is I feel like I'm just desensitized

to hear about Hollywood sex orgies. It's just like a court full of people, including Diddy's children who are in the, like all of the kids. Wait, how old are they? The twins are 18, the boys are in their 20s. They're all just sitting there with his mom, just in a row, unfazed,

and everyone's just sitting there unfazed. And it's your fault. It's my fault. My reason I think it's my fault is I did a show, started in the early 80s called Love Line, where our goal was to teach people about the biological consequences of their sexual choices. And then ultimately talk about that, we also started talking about trauma and reenactments and the consequences of disturbed childhood and how that affected our relationships

and how so our choices also affected our psychological and our spiritual wellbeing. This went off the rails somewhere. Talking about it freely, I guess, opened the door to this. Do you think maybe did he watch Love Line? I hope, why are you? I think Kanye was on Love Line? I think Kanye was on Love Line, wasn't he?

No way. We're just sitting there listening to these stories. Apparently the freak-offs that went on between Cassie Ventura and Sean Combs. Apparently they would sometimes go on for four days at a time. So they were hiring male escorts to come in and she would have to wear like huge platform heels and she would have to keep having sex with these escorts and she said every five minutes he would require her

to lather herself and the escort in baby oil because he liked them to glisten and to keep shining. So the baby oil, up until this court case, they said that it was laced with drugs. They thought that's how he got victims high. Cassie Ventura took the stand and said, there was no drugs. It was literally just baby oil from the drug store.

Were other people doing drugs? Or I mean, was this in any, because it all feels like drug addict behavior. They are doing drugs. Everybody's doing drugs. They said that they're both addicted to opiates. They were doing cocaine, ketamine, MDMA, everything. So maybe this is going to be an addiction story.

He's going to get out or get somehow some- That's what the defense is trying to do. I remember when he first went into jail, Suge Knight was talking to somebody on the phone and saying that he was probably in detox and he was going to be having a really hard time detoxing. They talked about the detox. Do you remember that? Cassie talked about it today.

She said that they went, they both flew to Mexico separately to do some type of detox, but then they both shortly relapsed after. Is she sober now? I believe so. And she's remarried. She's pregnant. Eight and a half months pregnant. We think she's going to be having a baby on the stand. She's not sober. She's not sober though. What? She's not. She's not. You want to say that? What? You want to diagnose? No, I'm allowed to say she's not talking like a sober person. What do you mean? She may be not using. She's not in recovery. How do you know you're not at the trial? I'm just hearing all this. Yeah, but she's not in recovery. No, she seems sober. She may not be using,

because she's not using it. Sober two different things. Okay, can you, I don't know, can you explain that? When people aren't using a substance, they are abstinent. When they're in the program of recovery, they are sober. That's technically the case. So if they're doing 12 step, they have a sponsor, they're working or getting treatment,

they're seeing therapists, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're in recovery and sober. If they're just abstinent, they're just abstinent. I didn't know it was so technical. It's technical because when people, if they're truly an addict and they're just abstinent, they will go back. Is it like when you're calling a recovering alcoholic,

you have to say the recovering? That's another technical thing, which is, right, you're never not an alcoholic. Yeah, I don't know if she, I just know that her husband. Is she a recovering sex addict? Or just abstinent? I think that's what the defense is trying to prove because they're trying to say that she was a willing

participant in the freak off. So they're trying to show text messages that would have her say like, oh, I can't wait till you put your legs behind, I can't wait. So the reality is, let's kind of spec, we respect, I don't know anything about this. I do have my notebook if you guys want real direct quotes. Oh, I'm going to say.

But without having any direct knowledge of anybody, she of course had to be willing on some level, she of course was in addiction. He was her manager at, she was signed to his label. So now there's the power hierarchy they're arguing. That is the point. This is why doctors don't have relationship with patients and teachers don't have relationship with students.

That the power imbalance is traumatizing and creates problems from the outset. And the music industry is already, it's already hard enough to break through that industry. So dating the head of Bad Boy Records back in the early 2000s is not fair. And again, she was just barely an adult, right? So they met when she was 19,

started dating when she was 21, and he was 17 years older than her. That's crazy. And the question is to, and this is kind of a legitimate question, to what extent is she responsible for her own actions in this situation? That's what a lot of men especially are arguing online where women are arguing the opposite.

Well, there are, let's discuss it. I really do feel like it's become a male and female issue online. Let's talk about it. Because, so it is truly the case there was a power imbalance, right? And are you saying as a woman, the power imbalance has more persuasive effect

than a man would know? Is that the implication? No, I'm saying that online. I've noticed seeing a lot of men. No, no, no, stay with me. But I get that it's a male- It's been a long day. I get it's a male-female thing online.

But I'm saying, do you imagine the women online that are saying this is, you know, she needs to be sympathized with, are sympathized with her because they feel like, and legitimately, reasonably so, that the power imbalance and the persuasive effects he had over her were more than a man would realize. That and if she didn't participate, he would beat her up.

Well, that's, isn't that enough? So there's a domestic violence element too. I haven't heard much about that. Have you seen the video with the Intercontinental Hotel? No, I've heard that he beat her up. I haven't heard them. One time he stomped on her head. I haven't heard her say I was afraid. I haven't heard them. When time he stomped on her head. I haven't heard her say I was afraid.

He stomped her head in a van. I was afraid if I didn't engage in these bizarre sexual acts, I would get beaten. I didn't know what to say. Wait, hold on. Because she was afraid he wouldn't love her anymore. Drew, okay, what's up? Caleb, yeah.

Drew, so wait, are you saying, so you haven't seen. I can't hear Caleb. Drew, you haven't seen the video that was leaked. I have. You have? I have. You have? I have. Okay, okay. But what I'm saying is I haven't heard her say,

yes, she was a victim of domestic violence, yes, but I haven't heard her say, I was fearful that if I didn't do these sexual acts, that would be unleashed on me again. That was one of the things she said, and also she was afraid that you wouldn't love her. I think it's important to remind the audience, especially the podcast listeners,

that Drew has been out of the country for what, the past 12 days? Yes. So Drew has actually missed a lot of stuff that you guys have already heard. So he will be caught up on this. Yeah, cause it's, Drew is slightly out of date on his information here because Cassie has said

some pretty horrific things she's described just in the snippets that I've seen. And it's, you know, yeah. We're the horrific things and that's what I'm saying. How is it we live in a world where people can just say these things and the press just report these things. And we are not, we're not phased. And then I go and report these things and I go viral.

And then I'm like, oh, the more crazy the things. And then it is whole, there's this creator economy at the courthouse now where it's not just press that's getting in. We have TikTokers, YouTubers, everyone's fighting for a spot and they're trying to make this story more salacious when it's already salacious on its own. How could it be more salacious?

But somebody says you're going to need an exorcist. A hundred percent. Yeah. We have a few on hand waiting for her at home. Yeah. Okay, Caleb. You got a head set on? Yeah, I just. Yeah.

My question for Emily is some of the stuff that I've been reading about here is that, I mean, especially looking at the opening statements from both sides, I noticed that he did a lot of bad things, but it seems like the prosecution is going after something they might not ever be able to get him on, which it seems like they're trying to do a Rico case when they should have tried to go for domestic violence and assault and kidnapping and all of these other crimes. Do you think that that's a bad direction for them to go?

Because it just doesn't seem like they're going to get it. That's what everyone's been saying. And there has been whispers in the courtroom that there were some victims that got cold feet and dropped out before the trial, which is making this seem like they don't have a lot. I know that Diddy's legal team is celebrating in the courtroom as if-

Sean Combs. Yeah, I'm dead naming him. He probably wants to be called Love. That was his latest name before he was arrested, Love. So there's guys outside the courthouse being like- I like Puff. I liked Puff Daddy. Free Love.

That was my errand. Free Love, that's hysterical. There was a guy that was arrested, a free Diddy, but he was a free love protester outside yesterday. But yeah, I think that the legal team on Diddy's side, they're already acting like they're going to win. They said they, I mean, they're schmoozing with everybody. I mean, they've got a strong team.

Garagos, Donaldson, Ryan Steele, they have like a powerhouse and then these prosecutors are so green. So the prosecution, they're like little, it's like, imagine seven of me's up on the stand. It's like little, it's all white women. That's why Mark Garagos called them a six pack of white women because they're all nervous, like, hey, my name is Meredith.

And then they're up against these like amazing criminal offenses. I mean, they're- Isn't that Garagos' daughter? Like isn't that Mark Garagos' daughter up there? Yeah, Tony Garagos is the lead. I read, so I read both of those opening statements. But she's very teeny.

Well, I read those opening statements from both sides. She had a better opening statement. It was, I was like, oh wow, wait a second. I know he did all of these horrible and terrible things, but she's making a lot of sense here that legally you can't, like they don't have the evidence so far to support going after like a criminal enterprise.

It's all of these other lists of crimes that they should have gone after instead. And so that's what I'm kind of worried about is that he may get off. Well, they say that the witnesses they're about to call up, they're trying to set the stage right now for the RICO. And the witnesses they're about to call to the stand, they're going to start showing like how he was using trying to set the stage right now for the Rico. And the witnesses, they're about to call the stand,

they're going to start showing how he was using employees to conspire and to carry out his crimes. Right now, I think they purposely put Cassie on the stand first. People thought she was going to be the strongest testimony. opposite. And then I just, when I left the courthouse today, this guy came up to me and he goes, because I left about 20 minutes early to get here. And he goes, things just got really serious. Like things are about to get really dark. They just called a new witness to the stand.

And apparently she just spilled out some crazy new evidence that I didn't get because I had to get here. Go on your magic. We'll see. So your magic. It, go on your magic. Oh, geez, we'll see. So, and there's your magic. It's already on TMZ, I'm sure. TMZ's got three reporters in there. My disclaimer is I've been producing this show for the past

hour and a half to two hours, so I'm not up to date on the past two hours, so maybe he has a full-on Rico case against him now. I don't need both of you getting mentally ill because you're around this grossness so much. I'm honestly more mentally ill from the comments section of people being like, like okay, I posted a video the other day where I said, it's so weird that I'm just sitting in court

and I'm listening to this male escort being like, oh yeah, Cassie said I have the biggest dick she's ever seen. Oh really? Yeah, she loved my dick. And then someone goes, you sound really biased. And I thought to what, small dicks? Because I'm not picking a side.

And they were, two people were trying, one was trying to say I was biased to Cassie and one to Diddy. It's like, I can't say anything without people attacking. Welcome to social media. I think that's more damaging to my brain than this trial. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Although I got to say that the fact,

we need to really examine ourselves culturally in this country that this is where public figures end up. We talk about it as though it's no big deal. It's a big deal. It's a big deal as to pravity and it's not good for our soul. It really isn't. And I hope people sort of look at it

and think about it that way. But my question to you is, where do you think management is going to end up? When you're a couple weeks down the line here, what do you imagine we're going to learn? People wanted it, wanted it. People were expecting Epstein 2.0. People want-

But they want Epstein 2.0. I don't think it's that. They want bigger people to be named. And so far we're not seeing, we're not seeing Ashton Kutcher, we're not seeing Leonardo DiCaprio, we're not seeing, we're not seeing Ashton Kutcher, we're not seeing Leonardo DiCaprio, we're not seeing Kim Kardashian. Right now all we're seeing is random male escorts

hired on Backgrid or Backpage. And we're not seeing the Mossad in there, you know, manipulating him or him using other videos. Today someone in the lunchroom told me she thinks the shakes were paying Diddy so that, because they don't get to have sex in their country, so they were paying him for the tapes. So that's just a conspiracy brewing in the cafeteria.

Why would they pay him to, why would they come over and participate? I don't know, this is how crazy the cafeteria got when we were eating chicken fingers. There was conspiracies lingering. I think also like the content creators, it's really dog eat dog, like, everyone's like trying to like outdo each other

with the content. Why? This is apparently a sex trafficking, allegedly, a sex trafficking trial. So why has this become a media circus? Exactly. What makes people come and be drawn to it like moths to a flame? Seems unhealthy.

I think it's because we've never seen someone as big as Diddy on a trial. I don't think anyone really cared that much about. Are you going to go after Kanye? big as Diddy on a trial. I don't think anyone really cared that much. It's an OJ. Are you going to go after Kanye? It's like an OJ trial. Is the Kanye thing? Well, the funny thing is, is Lisa Bloom is in the overflow room every day.

And if you guys aren't aware, Lisa Bloom is representing Lauren Piscota, who is the first woman to be filing a sexual assault lawsuit against Kanye. So her and her mother, Gloria Allred, are in the overflow room every day taking notes. No one knows why, but they're there. And so, and Kanye is still in prison, jail, whatever? Kanye's never been to jail. You want me to call Lisa?

So what is his- He's in Spain right now. So what is his liability? He's saying free Diddy. He's saying this is a big conspiracy by Diageo. And it's like- Diageo, who's that? It's this? He's saying free Diddy. He's saying this is a big conspiracy by Diageo. And it's like- Diageo, who's that? It's this company that,

I guess Diddy pissed this company off and a lot of people believe this theory that they want, I don't know, Caleb, are you aware? You know, Kanye, God bless him. He has, why do I say- Kanye actually talked to Diddy before the trial. Kanye called Diddy and they spoke on the phone. And then after that, he started going after Cassie on X

and was saying that Cassie's extorting Diddy for money and that Cassie was the one that was running the orgies and the sex parties and now that she took the stand, she admitted that. She said, yeah, I was the one that booked the orgies under the name, I think it was Jackie Starr, she would use that name, and she was the one booking the male escort.

So whatever Diddy told Kanye is exactly what they're saying at the trial. Well, God bless Kanye, he is sort of clairvoyant in his perceptions of things, right? No, he just talked to Diddy. No, no, but even when he comes up with ideas that seem outrageous, they end up being like- Like three years later.

Yeah, they're like, there's the truth. If not the truth. It's like the fly on the wall. Since when do you like Kanye? Something happened when you went over there. No, I've always felt bad for Kanye actually, because he's bipolar. I can see it.

They have a lot of trauma in their history. And I could feel the same way for Diddy. To me, the whole Diddy thing just looks like drug addiction to sex addiction, and eventually those things take you to legal trouble or health trouble. Or death. Or death or jail or something.

Why do you think it's drug addiction? I mean, they're saying it is, but a lot of people in the courtroom are saying, I didn't think Diddy was a drug user. It's just drug addict behavior. This is all drug addict behavior. Because no one has sex for four days in a row unless you're on drugs.

You're high, yeah. Correct, and people, as they get into their addictions, This is all dragon. Because no one has sex for four days in a row unless you're on drugs. You're high, yeah. Correct. Oh, and people, as they get into their addictions, need more and more and more and more stimulation. That's just how it works. And the tanks were getting weirder and weirder and weirder. I must also, because Emily, you probably know what I'm referring to,

but again, Dr. Drew has been out of town for about 12 days and he may not be aware of the latest updates. Kanye West's new song, which we cannot talk about here. I will tell you about it later if you're not aware. I got it. I'm aware of that. No, no, we knew about that. Just because I'm saying he can see things

that other people think may not be true, I'm not saying he's okay. You know about the song? I do know about the song. Why don't you sing it right now? No. It's the song of the summer. It's the Hitler song, right?

Yeah. No. I can't even say that word. I know the H-word song. This broadcast is when he sees. You know it's funny because when I was showing him the video where you were talking about, where you were talking about Cassie letting him pee in her mouth.

And he went, I was like, yeah, that's a thing. He goes, how do you know that? I said, he was just so confounded by it. He didn't know. This is Mr. Loveline. Yes. You didn't know about that urination kinks? The descriptions were so over the top

that I was like, what? He did what? She consented to it. She allowed him to do what? And why does she do it? There was so many things. I didn't want to repeat them. That why I was just like-

Not only consented. How is that arousing to anybody? How is that? How would somebody consent to that? And then repeatedly do it? It's just like, oh my God, it's so disgusting. The male escort said that she's the one that directed him and said, hey, hey, not so much at once.

You need to let it out a little at a time. Like let it trickle out. Yeah, because I guess the escort was like. There was weird stuff with semen. There was all kinds of crazy stuff. Oh yeah, that was the video that went viral is when I talked about the semen on the nipples. Okay, thank you for bringing that back.

I mean, right in front of his mother. I've heard of many celebrities with urination kinks and now I'm wondering, are they going to try to get ahead of the narrative and be like, okay, me too, before some girl comes out and outs them? Because I know of two right now. The whole me too moment is going to kind of convert. P2. P2. Right. Well done. That's where it has to go. because I know of two right now.

P2. We're all desensitized. Is it our business to be knowing about everybody's sex life? I don't want to know about your guys'. about it. But the world is desensitized, not Drew. But it's interesting because that's what, I mean, I guess Kanye is going to produce porn and he does weird stuff too. I mean, he's dragging his wife around naked on a red carpet for the Grammys and wondering why his kids are being taken away. Like it's all this stuff that they do for shock value. You know, it's like Howard Stern,

like he would fly through the air with his butt hanging out. Yeah, but that looks like babies, you know. Yeah, but now he promotes vaccines. We've advanced, our brains have advanced. Everybody's so desensitized to anything. Well, porn has made everybody desensitized, but this trial, I think, is waking people up. I think a lot of people that live

maybe in the middle of nowhere, they're like, this is crazy, but I think in Hollywood, people are used to this kind of behavior. Well, you're saying something rather profound there. You're saying we're desensitized, right? Is that true? Not all of us.

I think some of us are, though. Not all of us. Because when I was sitting there, I was on phased, and then when I left, people are like, are you okay? And I said, I've heard of us are though. Because when I was sitting there, I was on phased. And then when I left, people are like, are you okay? And I said, I've heard of defecation kinks. Susan and I have talked about that on her show. from the Abercrombie. And it's also like why if this trial ends up being nothing,

I'm wondering like, do you know anything about like, how does the government sue somebody? Like, do they just get all these people together? How do they sue somebody? Like, how is it the United States versus Sean Combs? Whose idea was it for the government to go after him? I don't know. That's your, the report.

I know, I never, I need to find that out. Ask Lisa Bloom. She'll tell you. Maybe. And she's an old friend of mine. We have her phone number. You can tell her I sent you to talk to her. Yeah.

She's there every day with Gloria. I mean, they're saying they're not going to make any assumptions on the case. Or you can ask Mark Garagos. He'll tell you. Yeah, Mark Garagos. I mean, he seems like he's... I saw him the first day of court, but I haven't seen him there any other day. He was in trouble.

People are talking about porn being the desensitizing factor. Do you think that's why we're all so desensitized? Maybe that's the issue? Yeah, I think so. When I was watching it, I was starting to pick videos that were so weird that I ended up reversing it.

And then I was watching porn where not only were they all have clothes on, but they even had N95 masks on. So that's a category now. It's like the opposite of nudity. That's a new category. Pauler A porn. Edith Yeah, so it's like modest porn. Edith Fully clothed. Edith Yeah, they're not even doing it. It's so weird.

Pauler How is it porn? Edith I don't know, but it's a category. It's really strange. Pauler I get the mask porn thing. Edith It's some like messed up leftist brain bullshit there. That's, wow, like they're just, they turn into a kink for them. They're so obsessed with masks. It was very, well, they were in China.

Yeah. So like they were wearing N95s before pandemic, but that's a whole other. They were wearing surgical masks for colds and things. I don't know i just think this trial is weird that there's just all these people just sitting there judging this relationship that happened years ago yeah that how long ago was it that's kind of a while ago and now and her husband is is there who is um diddy's trainer so she was cheating on diddy with this guy and now

today cheating given no he was cheating too no he was cheating on Diddy with this guy. And now today- Was it really cheating given what she was telling her to? No, he was cheating, but today the defense was trying to paint her out as a cheater, and they said that, they were like, do you remember the night that you were having intercourse with Sean Combs, and your now husband FaceTimed you? Did you answer that call?

And she was like, no, I don't think so. And then they were like, did you tell him that you were having intercourse with Sean Combs? and I was like, no, I don't think so. And then they were like, did you tell him that you were having intercourse with Sean Combs? And she was like, yeah, I think eventually. It's just a humiliating trial. showing old emails where they're like, I love you so much, I love you, I love you so much. Like they're just showing how in love this couple was.

Today they asked. Which couple, the now husband? No, Diddy and Cassie, they're like showing how in love they were. And then they're like, today she asked, do you still love him? And she was like, I have love for what we had. And it was just like.

What did you have? I mean, you can tell she still has like, I have love for what we had. And it was just like. What did you have? I mean, you can tell she still has like. Who asked Casey that? Even though the sex was freaky, the way it feels to me is like, they had a toxic relationship and like the only time she said she felt close to him is when they were having sex.

Because when you're dating someone that's unavailable and they're hooking up with girls and they're that powerful, the only time you do feel bonded is when you're having sex, because when you're dating someone that's unavailable and they're hooking up with girls and they're that powerful, the only time you do feel bonded is when you're having sex because once they come, they forget about you. So that's what the feeling I'm getting. And they kept saying that Cassie, they keep showing like screenshots of Cassie

begging for his attention, but how he was always on tour. And like they were caught, like Eregor said in the opening statement that both of the victims were desperate for his attention. They're trying to paint both. And so far Cassie's admitted that. She's like, yeah, I wanted more time with him.

But it's co-addiction straight across. And then today they showed an email where it said that, Diddy says, you're supposed to be seducing me all day long. And then they were like, so did you do that? And she was like, sometimes. It's just very weird. It's gross and sad.

And then everyone in the courtroom or the overflow room is just discussing their sex life. And they're all kind of, every single woman in there is relating to Cassie. They're remembering the toxic relationship they had in their 20s. Talk about yours. My mom told me I'm not allowed to.

I posted about it yesterday. She goes, stop comparing yourself to Cassie. That was really funny though. People in Attica are going to think you have weird genes. We all had a rock star phase, okay? Let's talk about it, talk about it generally. So if women are relating to these horrible,

addictive relationship that they had. And abusive ones. So if you if women are relating to these horrible addictive Relationship that they had and abusive ones which are abusive and they regret Why in the world wouldn't they show some? insight into how bad the choices were rather than Relating to Cassie as someone who's like oh poor thing poor thing, she just made some bad, do you know what I mean? It seemed to me that they would be much more like, oh, this is a sickness, this is terrible. I remember when I was that sick.

That means we're all sick. Yes. And also women miss their, like I still miss the toxic relationships because that's where the passion is. Like once you get in a stable one, you don't get those highs anymore. That is.

Addict behavior. Sick. That is sick. There are so many girls today talking about that. They're like, you know, they're like Cassie's a Virgo. They love chaos. You can tell like she's now dating a Pisces. They were like-

That's bullshit. Looking at our astrology signs. That is sickness. Drew's a Virgo too. He doesn't look like a Virgo. He's a September 4th. That's the same birthday as Jay-Z. You can't trust Drew. That is- And that same birthday as Jay-Z. Can't trust Drew.

That is... And that, speaking of Jay-Z, he has not been mentioned. Everyone has been thinking he's going to get mentioned. I don't think Jay-Z's getting mentioned. Same with Justin Bieber. So people have to understand, this is my point though, that people have to look at that behavior and those choices they made when they were young

and disturbed in some way to make these sick, develop these sick relationships. I think it's human. All of it's human. But you have to kind of look at it and go, well, that is- When you're young, you don't realize the situation you're in.

18 year olds are kind of assholes. I was 21. But to continue to romanticize it and to look at it- Look at all the TV shows that do it. Look at you. I agree. Those women shows that do it. Look at you. I agree. Those women are obsessed with Joe. He's killing all the, and the girls still love him.

Who's this? The new show is number two trending on Netflix. You. On season five, the whole show is about a sociopath serial killer that makes women fall in love with him and he just kills everybody. And the sex is just so crazy and they just love that he's a sociopath

like most of the shows on TV right now just show about emotionally unavailable men and then these like toxic relationships they're glamorized in media and I don't think it's because of the media I think it's a human experience at the present moment that's the way our personality structures have moved do you what came first these shows or that's a really our personality structures have moved. What came first, these shows or? That's a really good question, but I know I saw it happen in real time when I was working in psychiatric hospital.

I watched all of the character disorders coalesce around a couple of syndromes. We started the 70s and 80s with all kinds of different pathologies. By the end of the 80ies, borderline persona disorder. By the end of the nineties, everybody was sociopath, narcissist, borderline, everybody. Someone told me that as we've just kind of moved on in time,

they've just started creating this disorders just for humans. No, no. Like the book used to have gay in there as a disorder. I understand that you can be critical, but I watched it happen. I was there as a disorder. I understand that you can be critical, but I watched it happen. I was there when it happened. Because I would argue that people that are boring just label someone borderline

because they are so boring. No. What's the argument that you would make for that? That people are borderline or not happy they're borderline. They have very, very serious. So maybe people are misdiagnosing people with borderline because now it's like a cool thing. Yeah, we're over labeling. The same way with autism.

Same thing with narcissism, same thing with everything. We're over labeling for sure. Nobody really knows what a sociopath is. Correct, although you're describing them pretty accurate. Do you think Diddy's a sociopath? I think sex and drug addict, you got pretty clearly based on what, yeah. His mother also introduced him to sex early, right?

What does that mean? Can you say something like that? There's rumors online. There's something online about, did he say something about being in Harlem when he was 12 and being exposed to like pornographic material? Happens a lot.

And the average age of exposure now is age nine, I believe. Which is interesting, because Kanye just came out and said that he was giving oral sex to his cousin that was six years old after he found pornographic magazines in his mother's closet. Right, and so early exposure to pornography

is one of the causes of sex addiction. Then it's like, okay, my uncle and aunt had every single issue of Playboy and- Playboy does not know, it doesn't have that same- In their basement, and me and my brother saw it and we didn't go act out, we were just like, oh- I know there's no sex in Playboy. There was like Hustler too, wasn't that a bad one?

I think so. Wasn't that a little more R-rated? Yeah, but it's not intercourse, like you're not saying- Right, but I think that Kanye was talking about a hustler or something. Yeah. So I don't know. I just think it depends on the person. I think maybe the mental illness was the, I don't know.

Oh no, he might have set it for attention. Is what? Is it, can people develop sociopath tendencies just by basically desensitizing themselves on drugs and sex and craziness like he probably did for a decade or two? People in addictions of any stripe can function on the level of sociopathy.

So they can look like sociopaths, and when you treat the addiction, the sociopathy settles down. Right, okay. How do you treat being a sociopath? It's almost impossible, unless it's in the setting of addiction. So with addiction, when I've seen it settle down,

it's either A, they weren't sociopaths to begin with, they were just functioning like a sociopath to manage to get through their addiction, or because in order to survive your addiction, you have to change, that sometimes that's when people change their personality structure. People born a sociopath or can it? There are genetic features, but it's, you know,

other things that obviously come involved. Are there benefits of being a sociopath? Sure, you get to use, you can use other people and you can become a lot of captains of industry and things and very successful people, manipulate and use other people to get what they need without really concerns about them. But when it comes to mental disorders generally,

in general, it's about 60% genetics, 40% environment, almost every single condition. All right, I'm tired, I'm jet lagged. I was in Rome 24 hours a year. Thank you so much for jetting over here. Yeah, I appreciate that. There was people, I have to show you guys after, I'm concerned. Oh my, anybody concerned? We, I hope this is- Can you post that on Instagram?

I actually air dropped her the video and she said her editor's going to censor out of her notes. I think you should, you can only put that on X. I don't think you can- You can put it on X. Instagram won't ban you. Ugh. Yeah, poor Emily.

This is a lot. No, this is fun. It's fun for you. Oh, here's what's coming up. Laura Delano, she's written a book called Unshrunk about psychiatric care, about maybe over all the excesses there. Mike Wall, Kristi Meyer, Susan's show next Wednesday, Tim Pool. We're doing a psychic speed dating show on Wednesday.

Naomi Wolf and Coulter, tell them about that. A lot of maha people. Yeah, so we have a comedian coming on and we're going to do a comedian meeting six lovely ladies on a psychic speed dating show. Oh yeah, that'll be my friend John Campanelli. That's going to be very funny. Is it John, is that it?

Yeah, another Virgo. Hopefully Emily will be able to see me. A rational one, acts more like you than me, don't worry. How dare you. So we'll be back. Thank you for being here on the special show on Friday. A lot of interesting conversation, a good guest. And Emily, thank you for coming by

and enlightening us about the goings on downtown. We will be back on Tuesday. We are going to be at two o'clock all week from what I can see here. Wow, Tim Poole on Thursday. Wow, you have a really packed schedule. This is the easy, this is an easy week. She's looking at his calendar.

This is easy week, my dear. This is my week going. Yes, Drew did film. This is by getting back to normal. Drew filmed Gut Feel today. It will be on tonight at 10 p.m. and he's also on Kennedy's podcast as well. And Kill Mead's One Nation show,

it did three shows. Oh Jesus. More today? All day long. All right, keep drinking them Celsiuses. Keep it. So, I can't love. We're going to have dinner.

Emily. I'll let you guys know, I'll come back when there's like a verdict Okay, but I worry I want you to take you're always worried about me. I want you to take care of your soul You always worry even if I'm not at Diddy you're like, are you okay mentally? No, I'm not okay mentally I worry this is gonna Affect you. What's so I don't even have one. Oh, please. Well, maybe that's why I'm worried about it You're gonna back. We'll get some Eddie love on her, one of my sidekicks. He'll make her feel better.

Every time I leave here, I do feel good. That's why I agreed to it. I was like, I always leave Drew and Susan's feeling the normal. Aw, good. All right, Caleb, thank you. And everyone else, we will see you Tuesday at two o'clock. And see us all next week.

And check out, as I said, Gut Felt Tonight, a pretty good show. And we're going to have dinner and I'm going to go to sleep at 7, 7.30. It's like two in the morning for us right now. Literally two in the morning. All right, thank you very much, and we'll see you Tuesday.

Ta ta. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future.

Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me, call 911. If you're feeling hopeless or suicidal, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255. You can find more of my recommended organizations and helpful resources at DrDoo.com slash help.