Ask Dr. Drew - Roger Ver, Jan 6ers, Ross Ulbricht: Who Should Trump Pardon First? w/ Attorney Robert Barnes & Aaron Day – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 435

Episode Date: December 19, 2024

Incoming President Trump has hinted that he will pardon his supporters who stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021 – possibly on his first day in office. It’s also rumored that he is considering presidential pardons or commutations for others, including Silk Road operator Ross Ulbricht and early Bitcoin investor Roger Ver. Attorney Robert Barnes and Brownstone author Aaron Day discuss the cases, new attacks on raw milk, CBDC, and de-banking. Robert Barnes is a Constitutional, criminal tax, and civil rights attorney. He cohosts the “Viva & Barnes: Law For The People” podcast with Viva Frei. Barnes Law has defended a variety of cases including Wesley Snipes’ vs. the IRS, Alex Jones’ Sandy Hook defense, and other cases involving the government and free speech. Follow Barnes at https://x.com/barnes_law and learn more at https://barneslawllp.com Aaron Day is an entrepreneur, investor, and advisor with three decades of experience across e-commerce, healthcare, blockchain, AI, and clean technology. A Duke University and Harvard UES graduate, Day is the author of ‘The Final Countdown: Crypto, Gold, Silver, and the People’s Last Stand Against Tyranny by Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs).’ His work has been featured in Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, and Fox News. Find more at https://daylightfreedom.org and follow him at https://x.com/aaronrday 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors  • COZY EARTH - Susan and Drew love Cozy Earth's sheets & clothing made with super-soft viscose from bamboo! Use code DREW to save up to 40% at https://drdrew.com/cozy • FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at https://drdrew.com/fatty15 • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at https://drdrew.com/paleovalley • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

First up, Robert Barnes rejoins us. Of course, he is the Barnes of vivabarneslaw.locals.com with our friend Viva Fry. And he has represented many high-profile cases currently fighting the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture over the harassment of Amish farmer Amos Miller, which we have discussed in the past. And we're going to talk about January 6th and presidential pardons and waiting to hear from Aaron Day, who's scheduled to be with us as well. He's an experienced entrepreneur and he is a Bitcoin expert.

He's also a Brownstone author. He's author of The Final Countdown, Crypto, Gold, Silver, and The People's Last Stand Against Tyranny by Central Bank Digital Currencies. So lots to get into today crypto gold silver and the people's last stand against tyranny by central bank digital currencies so lots to get into today and we'll be watching you carefully over on the rumble rant town on the restream uh and on x where you can interact with us there we will look for you just in a few moments we welcome robert barnes our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre.

The psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f*** sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying. You go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician.

I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. I'm excited to bring you a new product, new supplement fatty i take it i make susan take take my whole family takes it this comes out of believe it or not dolphin research the navy maintains a fleet of dolphins and a brilliant veterinarian recognized that these dolphins

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Barnes underscore law on X. And look for Barnes and wait, let me get their specific specific sub stack eva barnes law.locals.com as i said robert is a constitutional criminal tax and civil rights attorney robert welcome to the back to the program there they are look at the what's what is viva doing in that picture i don't know but uh how do you deal with that expatriate all day long my friend yeah i think he was out doing some sort of thing a couple of years ago and he just kept that photo But how do you deal with that expatriate all day long, my friend? Yeah, I think he was out doing some sort of thing a couple of years ago, and he just kept that photo in there.

But he's the maestro of various families. I mean, I think the other day he was getting a snake out of some grocery store parking lot, and his son wanted to play with the snake to figure out whether it was venomous or not. So Viva's always a lot of fun. So I guess we should start with January 6th and what some of the excesses that were... My constant refrain, I must say, the topics we're going to get into today, I'm a complete dilettante.

However, the constant thought bubble over my head is, what has happened to us? What happened here? What went on? What do people think they were doing? What, in fact, were they doing? And let's just start with January 6th. And you make the case to me whether there should be pardons for everybody. My view is there should be because our Justice Department got so politically

weaponized. When they were prosecuting, treating, say, grandmas that took what I called an unauthorized tour of the Capitol as being the same as somebody who, say, went in there with any kind of weapon or did something, those are two radically different people. And yet they treated them all equally. And they are eager to prosecute. The other thing I have is how they were prosecuted. They were not prosecuted in their hometowns. They were prosecuted in D.C. I think that undermines the vicinage principle of our Constitution, which is that you're supposed to be prosecuted in your home community. That's how the vicinage and venue provisions have been historically interpreted. But they're not

being enforced. And here, I mean, imagine if all of Obama supporters or Kamala Harris supporters were all prosecuted in, say, a small Republican county in East Texas that voted 94 percent for Trump. That's equivalent. That's what's happening to all the January 6th defendants. The jury, the grand jury is not is not partial is is is partial prejudicial. The jury pool itself is is partial, prejudicial. The jury pool itself is very partial and prejudicial. The judges feel like they were personally attacked on January 6th. So honestly, they all should have disqualified themselves. Let a judge who doesn't feel personally attacked by January 6th adjudicate the various motions.

Make sure you have honesty in the discovery process. People aren't targeted for political reasons. All of those rules were violated. So I have questions about a lot of the substance of prosecutions, but we have such discrepancy. In other words, for example, all kinds of people have done all kinds of things at the Capitol over the years. It's not like they went and tried to blow it up like some Puerto Rican activists tried to do, some other activists have tried to do over the years, who were pardoned, by the way, by either Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter. Every buddy who ran away from the draft was pardoned right away on day one by Jimmy Carter. And I think President Trump should just pardon all the January 6th defendants because so many of them were subject to politically motivated prosecutions. The ability to filter out which ones are the most egregious versus the least

when they all violated core principles of constitutional liberty and were all targeted for politically motivated reasons, leads me to believe the best way for him to restore confidence in the American people in our justice system is mass pardons of anybody who is targeted for political reasons. And that includes Julian Assange, Ed Snowden. That includes, in my view, Roger Ver. That includes other people that Ross Ulbricht, some of these Trump has made public promises about, some he hasn't yet commented on. But all of these are people that were targeted for political reasons. And if for no other reason, just to restore confidence in the American people and around the world, that our justice system is supposed to be the stellar example of apolitical, non-political, non-prejudicial, non-partisan justice.

We need mass pardons of everybody whose case has the taint of politics surrounding it. So I want to dial back. There's a lot in what you said there, and I sort of want to parse out a lot of it. One was you made an equivalency, you drew an equivalency between draft evaders in the 70s and January 6thers. Is that, if somebody were going to push back on that equivalency, what would they push back on?

Is it just that you're saying the pardon is similar, or are you saying people in a mass sort of civil disobedient action should all be treated the same in relation to that civil disobediency, provided that it's justified in some way? It's both. It's both that a lot of the people were targeted for politically motivated reasons, but also this was a very political action that just got, you know, slightly out of, I mean, it got out of hand without question.

But the idea that we're going to put everybody, lock about people up for longer than rapists get, than some murderers get. We had the lady in Colorado who's doing like nine years over what she thought was blowing the whistle on election issues. So we need to restore confidence in our legal system. And it's both the substance of how these people ended up being prosecuted, but also the procedures that went through it. So there are a lot of the procedures violated core constitutional principles.

And if nothing more, just to restore confidence in our constitutional system of justice. What you don't want is like what's happening in Syria right now, where they went into the prisons and they just released everybody because they so distrusted the Assad government, they assumed everybody in there could be in there for bogus reasons. Unfortunately, they're mixing in political prisoners with rapists and murderers and pedophiles and other very dangerous people. And here we can just distinguish people that were prosecuted for political reasons or the nature of their prosecution violated core constitutional liberties. These are the ones that

should be the focal point. And that includes the January 6th defendants. I would go back and pardon people like Julian Assange and Ed Snowden, because these, I think anybody that was a whistleblower, the Obama administration targeted a lot of whistleblowers, all of these people should be pardoned. And then everybody in the Bitcoin space that they've been harassing like crazy, including Roger Ver, famously known as Bitcoin Jesus, as just one of those illustrative examples. He's the one right up, but Ross Ulbricht is still in prison. President Trump has promised to commute his sentence because of deep issues about how crypto was targeted and how constitutional rights or civil rights are often violated in the way they were prosecuted. I want to get into Roger Veer in a second, but I still am sort of struggling with so many of the things on the January 6th

front. You mentioned the one of the whistleblowers that's in there for nine years where she perceived herself to be a whistleblower. Do we need to spend more work uncovering inconsistencies in the 2016 elections? And is that a necessary element in carrying out these forgivenesses? Or is it just going to proceed no matter what? Because there's a lot of mind reading going on, on all sides. I would imagine most of the people on January 6th thought they were acknowledging something happened in the election that they felt needed to be righted, so to speak, and they were

demonstrating to that effect. On behalf of the january 6th committee these were people that wouldn't as far as they were concerned these are people that wouldn't accept any election results and just were going in there to try to express their discontent and overthrow a government without any weapons interestingly i don't know how you do that in a most powerful nation in the world but okay uh the is, this is all mind reading. We need to do something from an evidentiary standpoint to get out of that soup. I think that's the utility of making it universal because all the January 6th defendants were ultimately were prosecuted in DC.

And I have problems with that about the judge's bias, the prosecutor's bias, the grand juror's bias and the juror's bias. I think that fact alone is sufficient. We know the cases were politically motivated. We know the discrepancy. I mean, all these people that went in on the Capitol had seen the Summer of Love, which were the protests were celebrated as, you know, mostly peaceful protests. Well, the fires lit up behind. They didn't light anything on fire.

Most of them stayed in between the lines when they're walking around the Capitol. So these were not the people to be so harshly prosecuted, treated worse than, say, the Puerto Rican rebels that tried to take over the Capitol with arms, who Bill Clinton pardoned. Or some of the people that committed violent acts with Weather Underground that President Carter pardoned. So this is just, when you have politically motivated cases that lead to doubts in the American public and the world about the credibility of our system, the presidential power of the pardon, I think, is there for that purpose, to be able to exercise it to say, no, we're going to stay apolitical as best we can.

And there was almost nothing about the January 6th cases that was apolitical. Before we get to Roger Ver, i have one last sort of question which is if we start drawing equivalencies between draft evading and january 6 isn't somebody very quickly going to also form a equivalency between draft evading and illegal immigration into the United States. I understand these aren't citizens, but they are amongst us, as Abraham Lincoln once argued. How do we respond to that if that were to happen? I think in the illegal immigration context, aside from not being citizens to begin with, is that they're not being targeted for political reasons because of their political beliefs. It's because they're not legally present here and are costing American citizens more than American citizens should have to pay. So I think I just see that as a practical, apolitical decision

enforcing the law as it exists. Now, I think a lot of those people that are here have an argument that the prior administration misled them into being here. And so we'll have to figure out how do we deal with the consequences of that. I mean, when there's NGOs that are complicit and the Biden administration may be complicit, that they might have misled people that, you know, people from Haiti might not have been dying to move to Springfield, Ohio, but might've been told this is your only opportunity and so forth. And so I think that the, and I think the Trump administration is right to focus on, okay, get out the worst people first on the immigration side,

but also on the immigration side, focus on the NGOs, focus on the government actors who misled a lot of people. What's going to happen to the NGOs? We have to do something about that. It seems to be almost more than anything, more than January 6th. I know I wasn't here to talk about that, but what are we going to do about that? I think you're absolutely right.

And in my view, what I've been urging, I've been saying cut off the money. So that like a lot of the jobs, anybody that's a censor, not only should be fired, but just cut off the funding. No more funding of it. Not millions of dollars

to have censorship operations all around the world. Like Mike Benz was just discussing with Joe Rogan, how our government dollars were being spent to do mass censorship. We got to get rid of that. And I think that we cut off the money. You've cut off the money, you solve 90% of the problem. And that is something cut off from the federal government? Yeah, it's almost all this money is coming from United States taxpayers. I mean, it's extraordinary. The U.S. taxpayers since 2015 have been paying to censor the American people.

And that's just outrageous. So it's not, it's just, are there loopholes in the law that could be closed to sort of reduce the probability of this just leaking back? Yes, I mean, I think we should support Rand Paul's legislation. Rand Paul's legislation would make it illegal for any government employee to ever censor. And that's got to be part of it. Cut off the funds to the NGOs, some deportations and some select prosecutions. I mean, the cartels are making a lot of money on this. Some other people that are making some high ranking people need to face real penalties penalties, just like I think Fauci needs to. Now, I think that's why. I think Biden, look for Biden to include a lot of immigration groups

in his preemptive parties. It won't just be Fauci. A lot of those Soros-connected NGOs, Bill Gates-connected NGOs, they're going to be included in that list, is my guess. Oh, interesting. So let's talk about Roger Ver. I'm going to have Aaron Day in here in a second to talk about crypto more generally. But what is the story of Roger Ver and why do you think he needs to be pardoned? So basically, your classic, nice, naive, idealistic American started out as a young libertarian, Roger Ver. Before he was known as Bitcoin Jesus, he was just a young libertarian running for office who was critical of politicians and was particularly critical of high ranking personnel involved in the Waco issues. And so he was critical of all of that, said our government's out of control. We need to get it into balance.

He was warning about things that we now all know about 20 years, but he was doing it 20 years earlier. And so Roger Ver comes out, publicly criticizes it, exposes the fraud that the government was engaged in, the bad conduct at Waco and some other places in Ruby Ridge. And all of a sudden, he's subject to a very rare federal prosecution. He was prosecuted for not getting the right permit for selling fireworks on eBay, fireworks. This guy served 10 months in federal prison over registering fireworks. One of the only prosecutions of that kind ever heard. That educated him. He got into Bitcoin, realized Bitcoin could totally revolutionize the world for financial freedom, but realized that the US government could come after him if he was critical about how they were

trying to, in the intel community particularly, co-opt Bitcoin for its use and not for the use of people who want to have individual financial freedom challenging central planners and central banks. Wrote a book called Hijacking Bitcoin. During this time period, he realized, okay, I'm at risk if I stay in the U.S. I've already experienced this as a young libertarian, as a 21-year-old, got to serve time in federal prison over fireworks. So I'm not going to wait around to see what the CIA has in store for me if I stay a U.S. citizen. So he left the U.S., gave up his U.S. citizenship, became a citizen of St. Kitts,

did it all legally with the right process. And then he publishes Bitcoin, hijacking Bitcoin. He'd been talking about it for years, about how the various intelligence communities around the world are trying to suppress our opportunity of ordinary people to have financial freedom. And all of a sudden, two weeks after that book is published, he is suddenly indicted. And an indictment is later unsealed. He's arrested. He's being held with extradition in Spain. He was originally jailed in the same place they jailed John McAfee, also on tax charges, and he ended up dead in Spain. So he does get bail pending the challenge of the extradition. And he filed a motion to dismiss that revealed extraordinary government malfeasance and misconduct in his case. So I was a suspect of his case from day one because I was like, why are they targeting this guy that's a high-profile political critic

over an eclectic tax theory. I do a lot of criminal tax law. They're trying to take criminal tax cases now and use them to create new tax law. For example, the exit tax has always been considered constitutionally questionable. It says if you give up your citizenship, suddenly all your property gets treated as income. That's not a legally credible approach. And yet, you know, he still went forward and paid all that and did all that. And they just decided to retroactively prosecute him for money he'd made outside the United States while he was not a U.S. citizen from non-U.S. sources. It's never been done in American history, the prosecution of Roger

Ver. The theory that you can use an exit tax to criminally prosecute someone when the tax itself is likely unconstitutional, and they want to impose a national property tax on us. I mean, Warren is smart. She calls it a wealth tax. It's a property tax. That's unconstitutional. We require apportionment for direct taxes unless it's an income tax in America. And property taxes by the Supreme Court's ruling are excluded from the definition of income. So they're trying to redefine the word income. They're trying to target this high-profile political critic of their system. They're trying to create novel interpretation of tax law, and they're all doing this by trying to imprison him for 109 years. That's what he's looking at.

Roger Ver is looking at 109 years for filing tax returns according to what his own accountants and attorneys told him to. And it turned out the government lied, our own US attorneys lied to the Spanish courts. And now maybe under criminal investigation in Spain, based on this motion to dismiss that Roger Ver just filed, that his legal team just filed. And what, because what it revealed was that they knew that his own attorneys had told him to file the way he filed. And they lied to the Spanish courts and said, oh, no, his attorneys told him to do the exact opposite of what he did. So they knew they were lying because they had actually broken attorney-client privilege. This case went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court. They stole a bunch of his attorney-client file records.

They executed a search warrant, unheard of also, in the tax arena. You're supposed to have attorney-client file records. They executed a search warrant, unheard of also, in the tax arena. You're supposed to have attorney-client privilege protection. They got all of his information. But what it showed was he had followed their advice all the way through. He said, whatever we do, I want to make sure I do it correct because I know how the government harasses people that are going to be critical. And I'm not going to keep my mouth shut about how they're trying to abuse the power and control of Bitcoin or the benefit of central planners and intelligence agencies and not ordinary people. And that's why he's being targeted. And he's been quiet until he did an interview with Tucker Carlson that was published yesterday. And credit to him, there's a bunch of people in the Bitcoin space that have been very,

I've been very concerned about his case from day one. Same with Ross Ulbricht, a buddy of mine was his, that was the Silk Road case. Joshua Dratel was a buddy of mine, his lawyer, who documented all kinds of government misconduct. In that case, it turned out IRS agents were stealing money from him. And these are the people that prosecuted him. So it's a terrifying case. It's another political case. And I'm trying to get it on the radar of the Trump world because Roger Ver is a guy that we cannot afford to be prosecuted if we're serious about be prosecuted if we're serious about protecting Bitcoin and if we're serious about depoliticizing the Department of Justice. Well, I'm going to bring Aaron Day in here in a minute to talk about the topic of Bitcoin more

generally and sort of contextualize this for us. Caleb, you put up a couple of tweets. I think one was Aaron, maybe both were Aaron's. We couldn't read them could you maybe read them to us yes yes hold on turn off my loud air uh yeah so this one's from aaron day and it's about uh roger vera is facing a tax case so absurd it's clearly retaliation charged as a non-citizen for taxes he didn't owe he's being punished for empowering individuals and challenging central banks stand with the anti-bill Gate at freerogernow.org. And there was another one. You read another one also before you put, yeah.

Yeah, the other one that I posted, it's an excerpt from a tweet from a guy named Amir. And he's basically defending Roger, even though he said that Roger is actually, I believe they had been in a lawsuit before that Roger sued him for $2 million. But he's saying, but that doesn't matter now since we're all libertarians and we must stick together. Crypto is under attack. So it's a defense of him from someone who had been sued by him that's trying to defend him on principle. Got it. And again, before we go to break here, Robert, how do you understand Bitcoin generally? Are you sort of an advocate?

Do you see it as something challenging central banks? How do you understand it? And then I'll let Aaron explain more to us when he gets in here after the break. So I'm definitely more aligned with Roger's perspective on Bitcoin. I was a big believer in Satoshi's initial proposal. I think he's a genius, whoever he was. His goal was, how do we give people the tools and power? Exactly, that's correct. To give people the individual tools and techniques to challenge the state and be independent and separate from the state, whether it's central banks or central planners. And I mean, like what Bitcoin can do in places like Africa and other places is extraordinary.

And we've seen it. We've seen it grow dramatically just since Trump got elected. It's, you know, Bitcoin is over 100,000 thereabouts. So I think it has the potential that Roger identifies. But it depends on people exercising that potential to give it that fulfillment. Otherwise, the intelligence apparatus and the rest will co-opt it, try to make it into a central bank digital currency. And then we get a social credit score that makes China's look like a walk in the park. All right, we will get more into that after the break with Aaron Day. Again, entrepreneur, investor, advisor with three decades of experience across e-commerce, healthcare, blockchain, AI, clean technologies. He's a Duke and Harvard graduate. He is the author of The Final Countdown, Crypto, Gold, Silver, and People's Last Stand

Against Tyranny by Central Bank Digital Currencies. His work has been featured in Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Fox News. You can find out more at daylightfreedom.org and or follow him on X, Aaron Day, Aaron with two A's, A as it sounds and aaron robert of course at barnes underscore law on x and free roger now.org to get into that story a bit more uh daylight freedom.org is aaron's uh site again and we'll be back with both of them uh after this wellness company knows that taking charge of your family's healthcare is a top priority,

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make sure to tell them that you heard about it here. C-O-Z-Y-E-A-R-T-H dot com slash Drew. And we've been speaking to Robert Barnes, of course. Viva Barnes Law is the sub stack and the podcast and the streaming show. BarnesLawLLP

dot com as well as Barnes underscore law on X. and the streaming show, barneslawllp.com, as well as barnes underscore law on X. Aaron Day joins us now as well. You can follow him on Twitter, Aaron Day, just as you imagine, A-A-R-O-N Day, D-A-Y. He is daylightfreedom.org. And there's Aaron. Aaron, thanks for joining us.

Robert, welcome back. Thank you for having me. So we, Robert was talking about his- It's actually Aaron R. Day. Sorry, Drew, Aaron R. Day. Oh. Yeah, I don't want to mess people up on the podcast. Yeah. Oh, I missed the day.

I missed the R there. I beg your pardon. That is my, must be a little tiny sliver of dyslexia that I have because I would not have seen that R had you not been able to bring my attention to it. So the X is Aaron R. Day. I beg your pardon.

And Aaron, Robert was talking about his perspective on Bitcoin and it's somewhat of a legal perspective, particularly as it pertains to Roger Ver. Tell us why this is such a challenge to Central Bank, why they went after Roger Ver, and help us understand Bitcoin a bit more generally, if you could. Well, Bitcoin initially was a serious threat to central banks. I actually learned about Bitcoin in 2012 from Roger at a free state project conference called Liberty Forum. And in the early days, when I first received my first Bitcoin, it was faster, cheaper, and easier to use than anything

coming from the traditional financial system. And you have to remember, Bitcoin was released just after the 2008 financial collapse. And so this is when people were worried about the banks and understood that banks always seem to get bailed out and that central banks are funding all of these wars all over the world. And so people started using it. I started using it in 2012 for day-to-day purchases. And by about 2017, it became very popular. Large retailers like Overstock.com, Expedia, and Microsoft were taking Bitcoin directly through their websites. And this is when the price really started to surge. But then all of a sudden, which is basically allow for large blocks,

meaning that you can have a large number of transactions happening every 10 minutes, they decided to keep it artificially small, the block size, and limited the total number of transactions to basically seven transactions per second. So right at this critical time, when people were actually using Bitcoin for commerce, the transaction fees jumped to about $50, and it was taking about 10 days to actually complete a transaction. So this completely destroyed the use case for Bitcoin as digital cash and as something that could be competitive to central banks or a central bank digital currency. And one of the areas I get confused about Bitcoin is Bitcoin versus blockchain. Help us understand, is it that Bitcoin uses blockchain? How do we understand these things? Bitcoin is a blockchain and there are a lot of different blockchains. There are well over 20,000 different cryptocurrencies. They're not all their own

blockchain. But the way to look at a blockchain is this, is to take a step back and look at most commerce runs using databases, centralized databases, like a Microsoft database or an Oracle database. And these are software programs where you can actually go back and change the data in the database. The benefit of blockchain is that it's immutable, meaning you actually can actually go back and change the data in the database. The benefit of blockchain is that it's immutable, meaning you actually can't go back and reverse or change any of the information in it. It is a chain of blocks. And in the case of Bitcoin, every 10 minutes, a new block is added. So the way this works is there are computers all over the world trying to solve really difficult math problems.

The computer that solves the math problem first gets to add the next block to the chain, and they get a reward for that in terms of what's called a Bitcoin mining reward, but they also get fees for the transactions that are added to that block. do you worry that google's new tritium supercomputer is going to sort of crash this whole system have you thought about that anybody i'll ask you the same thing robert after aaron answers certainly uh quantum computing has has been identified as a risk factor because a certain period of time and i've actually just started to look at this new Willow system that they have, and so certainly there is the ability to break the encryption at some point in time. And so this is what's great about having a marketplace,

which is there are different cryptocurrency projects working on coming up with different quantum-resistant technologies to be able to head that off. Yeah, it's fascinating how the Bitcoin community keeps trying to collectively and aggregately problem solve. Like, I mean, what Roger Ver's vision was, what Satoshi's vision appeared to be, was Bitcoin is a tool to re-democratize our economy and restore power in the individual away from central planners or central banks or any of the others. And what's fascinating is whenever a problem has arisen, the community will collectively and aggregately get together and try to solve that problem. And it's this constant experiment in

human democracy that the Bitcoin universe continues to utilize. And so I think that's one of the benefits of it is its potential. But its potential can be rerouted and derailed if the central planners have their way. Well, and this is a specific risk for Bitcoin because Bitcoin has kind of solidified their development. So Bitcoin, in essence, hasn't really done a lot of innovation for a number of years. They've kind of capped it where it is. So it has this small block size. And it's very difficult to get changes through.

This is why Roger has started in recent years to promote privacy coins like Zeno and Monero, which have different technology and which tend to be more adaptive to the marketplace. But it's really interesting. I'm trying to reason my way through this. Money, gold has some inherent value. People like wearing it. Humans give it a special meaning. Money is a unit of barter.

And there are markets of money. We call those currency markets markets and it seems to run reasonably well though those two can go goofy what's going to happen when there are markets in bitcoin that's sort of what you're implying that all these different bitcoins are solving the problem of supercomputing in their own way, isn't this going to encourage a marketplace and then shorting and then options and God knows what other sort of instruments will get applied to them?

Well, certainly there already is a robust market for cryptocurrencies and there are already interesting market dynamics going on. Although I don't know, excuse me, if state-based currencies actually work very well. In fact, it's one of the things that I touch on in my book. If you actually look at state-based or fiat currencies, they have a 100% failure rate. The average state-based currency only lasts for about 27 years. And if you look at the dollar, which has been the global reserve

currency for over 100 years, it is flashing bright red on all seven of the main reasons why a fiat currency fails. And so this has been a recurring problem. And so we have this boom and bust cycle of nation states that is largely driven by poor economic and monetary policy. And then we go from one global reserve currency to another. There are some interesting ideas with cryptocurrency that might be able to separate money and state and actually stop this boom and bust cycle.

But it certainly is a competitive marketplace. And Aaron, let's switch over to Roger Veer. What are your feelings about what's going on with him and what's likely to happen? And what are the strategies to get the attention for a pardon? So from my perspective, what's happening to Roger is a travesty, and it's actually tied directly to the emergence of central bank digital currencies. And again, since this is the field that I focus on,

I truly think central bank digital currencies are the biggest single threat to human liberty. The ability to program, track, and censor money. Define what you mean by that. Define what you mean by central bank digital currency. What does that mean? Well, central bank digital currency, well, I actually would argue in kind of my recent analysis, we already have a central bank digital currency because the way money is created right now is the federal government issues an IOU to the Federal Reserve, and then the Federal Reserve creates the money out of thin air in an Oracle database. Technically, it meets the definition of a CBDC, but that's not what people have in mind. There's more enhanced surveillance

and programming. So it's basically the ability to program money at the individual unit and to be able to track each individual dollar and to be able to program that dollar. So if the government doesn't like your behavior, they can shut off your money or they can program how you can spend your money to begin with. Or perhaps let's say the government decides they want to stimulate spending. They can say, listen, this digital money, the CBDC that you have in your account, if you don't spend it by the end of the month, we're literally going to take it away from your account. And so this basically gives them the ability to control human behavior at a very intense programmatic level. Haven't we seen evidence of something at least close to that, if not specifically that, in Canada?

Well, we've seen that in the United States. China has already rolled out a CBDC. What a lot of people don't realize is that 11 countries have rolled out CBDCs. At this point in time, there are 134 countries that represent 98% of global GDP at various stages of deployment. Half are beyond the research phase and are actually looking at implementation. So this is something that already exists. But one of the things that I like to point out to people is people don't understand how bad the current system is with the dollar today. 92% of our financial transactions are already digital.

We really only deal with 8% cash. Our money is already being tracked. There are 13 different federal programs involved in tracking our money. And I won't go through all of them, but I'll give you two. The IRS is now working with banks using AI to monitor our financial transactions. The NSA does bulk data collection

and through the Patriot Act, they can actually come in and shut down your bank account and issue something called a national security letter where you can't even talk to anybody about it, including a lawyer. So this isn't some future dystopian situation, nor is this China. This is the United States today.

Yes, as Mark Anderson was... And CBDC, just in case you guys... Hold on a second. Central Bank Digital Currency, CBDC. So when you hear Aaron use this shorthand, understand that's what he's talking about. Robert, you were shaking your head vigorously about Canada and now U.S. Tell us your opinion. Yeah, I mean,

Mark Anderson was just talking about it with Joe Rogan, which is that a lot... I mean, I represent other clients that have been debanked for political reasons. I mean, people had made banks hundreds of millions of dollars, and then the bank decided to shut them down because they didn't like his politics. Because a couple of the executives there didn't like his politics because they got caught up in the Michael Brown fever around St. Louis. Shut him down? What does that mean? Hang on.

What does shut him down mean? Not wanting to do business with them? Banks are at their liberty to do that. What do you mean shut him down? At multiple levels. So essentially he had a wide range of contracts that had tax benefits and triggers and business partners, including banks. They tried to shut down those partnerships. Then they tried to shut down the hotel project that he was working with them on. And they tried to stick him with the whole bill. And the long and short of it is that the net

effect of them excluding him from the financial process that was a critical component of those tax-funded, bank-financed real estate projects is that he went from being worth a lot of money to being at risk of bankruptcy. All because they didn't like his political viewpoints. And in fact, what Mark Anderson told Joe Rogan is that a bunch of people in the tech space like the people in the crypto space. The Winklevoss twins have been very vocal about this. Others have been targeted by the Biden administration for various forms of political harassment and retaliation.

Maybe it's an SEC. Elon Musk has been subject to this all over the place. Maybe it's an SEC inquiry. Maybe it's an EEOC inquiry. Maybe it's an SEC inquiry. Maybe it's an EEOC inquiry. Maybe it's an IRS inquiry. But the IRS is the best one because they have the greatest power of all of them. And that's why they're using the IRS to go after people like Roger Ver. They want something that will intimidate and shut up critics and dissidents from preventing this rollout of a central bank digital currency for which an independent Bitcoin is the best

independent challenge to that central bank digital currency power. That's why they're obsessed with suppressing anybody who's advocating for it. Aaron, please pick up that baton. Well, this debanking has been going on for a long time. We had something called Operation Chokepoint 1.0, where a whole variety of different categories of businesses were actually targeted and explicitly debanked. So a lot of people in kind of the gun industry, people doing payday lending, a whole long list of categories where these were legal businesses, but they were explicitly targeted and explicitly debanked. What we're dealing with today and what Mark Andreessen touched on is really Operation Chokepoint 2.0. And this is part of Biden's whole policy. Biden issued an executive order in March of 2022

called Executive Order 14067. And it actually authorized the federal government to not only explore CBDC, but to take a whole of government approach to cracking down on crypto, which they've done. So whether it's the IRS or the DOJ or the Treasury or the CFTC, this is what they've been doing.

And so I have multiple friends that are in prison that didn't commit any crimes, that actually have gotten swept up in this. And it's basically a complete dragnet. And then Elizabeth Warren, with her Consumer Protection Board, has been going crazy over this as well. So this has been a deliberate politicized attempt to weaponize the banking system to go after enemies in a very targeted basis. And I'll say this, this is really interesting to do, is go and read the contract that you have with your bank. What you will find is four things. One, they can cancel your account

without cause. Two, they can actually sell or share your data, financial transactions, without your consent. They can change the fees without your consent. And then they can change the whole terms of the contract without your consent. This is the default nature of the relationship that we have with the banking system. And then truck point 1.0 and 2.0 are just layers on top of that. And Dreesen has done a great job of raising awareness about things that a lot of people, including myself, not aware of. His reading list, I go to constantly.

And if he reads it, I try to read it. But this conversation, and by the way, this conversation leads me to believe that we have an administration that does not like freedom. Freedom is being, as you say, choked on every front. But I'll ask this of Aaron. When I hear this conversation, it makes me want to buy gold. That's sort of where my head goes.

Talk me out of that. Should I be buying Bitcoin or some other weird, distant, quiet Bitcoin that people don't know about? I mean, what should an average person do to protect themselves? Well, I wouldn't buy Bitcoin for a whole variety of reasons. It's slow, expensive, and it's actually trackable. And now the government basically can identify all of

your transactions and then basically decide, well, we're going to have a white list or a black list. And so this means that Bitcoin isn't fungible. One Bitcoin isn't the same as the other. One thing about gold is you've got to make sure with all of these things, and this is true also of cryptocurrency, you want to have these assets in your own self-custody. And I will say I've been living out of the banking system. I actually got rid of a personal bank account in 2019. So I live on crypto, gold and silver. So I'm very acutely aware of the ins and outs and the pros and cons of this. And so very recently, I've been interested in, and it's because Roger pointed it out,

privacy coins. We really need to go back to having private money. I mean, that's what cash always was. We always had this presumption that our financial transactions were private. And now it's the complete opposite. Now it's AI working with the banks or Bitcoin, which is completely an open ledger that's tracked. So you use privacy cryptocurrencies. If you are going to use gold and silver, I actually use goldbacks. I actually carry these things. It's one one thousandth of an ounce of gold. You can actually spend gold in spendable form. And I think one of the most interesting things is the actual merger of precious metals and crypto. So imagine having a cryptocurrency, a privacy cryptocurrency that's actually backed by

gold that you can redeem for physical gold, but that's separate from the state. So I think there's some really interesting models here where we can get the best of both worlds. But, you know, Bitcoin isn't the answer. And certainly we have to look out for all of the surveillance going on with the traditional banking system. Is that GoldLink coin available yet? Not yet, but the one that I know of will be in 2025. So it's almost like on one end there is something that has a basis in precious metal. And the other, there is Dogecoin that has a basis in nothing. Well, yeah.

What I like to say... Well, I'm sorry. I was going to say it's the 99% of crypto that makes the other 1% look bad. Robert, go ahead. That's a fair characterization. But I think it all comes back to individual empowerment. And what you're talking about, this administration just waged war on liberty across the board,

whether it was financial liberty, food liberty, going after Amish farmers, political liberty in terms of- Robert, back to my original question. When you and I were talking about January 6th, what happened to us? What is going on? Did something infect us? Some outside influence get involved with it?

I mean, what happened here? It was very interesting. Like I had my own theory because of the experiences I've had. I've represented a lot of these folks like Amos Miller, the Amish farmer, and figuring out why are they harassing a guy that's got the best food safety record of anywhere?

Which reminds me, by the way, Santa's favorite milk is Amos Miller's milk, Amish farmer's milk milk i can personally vouch for that i'm gonna have to sneak some stuff uh sneak that over to the let you sample some dr derp the uh it is is the best i need santa's favorite milk susan come on now exactly the uh but but it's it's systemic but what's interesting is mike ben's theory was what happened was the entire national security apparatus went from we need to monitor for terrorism to we need to monitor for Trumpism. And they decided that that was the greatest threat. And that democracy changed from individual rights, individual liberties, our founders' definition of it, to what do the institutions say? What is the approved version?

Institutions of democracy. Inst institutions of democracy institution of democracy yeah it became bureaucracy as as elon has been pointing out they they they and they said anything that's a threat to bureaucracy is a threat to democracy which we must suppress which they enter i i've called it like the opposite of bill gates dystopian control grid where you got you know big tech and big food and big media and big pharma that he has various ties to that the Amish are exempt from because they choose to opt out from that. They are so upset about people wanting to get out of that control grid that they engaged in every weaponization of our legal and financial and political systems to punish anybody who challenged it. And probably one of the biggest and from their perspective, highest profile

critics was Roger Verrera. I mean, he's a guy who's known as Bitcoin Jesus. I mean, literally. So that was why he was going to be at the top of that list to put in prison for life for opening his mouth. Caleb, what do you throw up there? I'll let Aaron you comment in just a second. But Caleb, you put something up on the screen. Is that something we should be aware of? No, I was meant to put this up a little bit later, but actually I pressed the button too early. But this is about how they were able to take a system that's not quite like Bitcoin, but they were able to, it's obvious that they arrested the founder of Telegram

and really put the pressure on him and said, hey, you got to give us some back doors here because, and they say it's always to protect the children. It always comes back to that. It's to protect the children. And that's how they're going to try and get their claws into crypto with Bitcoin. They're saying, well, to stop child trafficking, that's their excuse every single time to take

away freedoms. It always goes back to it because it's the easiest way to convince people. Aaron, go ahead. I was going to say, Roger has done more to spread digital cash across the world, literally, than anyone. And it's not just Bitcoin. A lot of people don't know this. Roger's invested in well over 40 companies. I mean, you can go to his website, rogervere.com, and you can see all the different things. And his emphasis has always been not on one particular coin or another. It's been on, you know, experimenting in the marketplace and finding which cryptocurrencies work the best for people all over the world. So he hasn't been, you know, as much as he has the name Bitcoin Jesus, he hasn't been

religious about it at all or particularly, you know, weighing in on one or the other. The third most valuable cryptocurrency is a currency called XRP. Roger was the co-founder of that. And now he's spending a lot of his time on privacy coins. So I think, you know, the reason that he is arrested is part that he exposed that Bitcoin was hijacked, which this could be a whole other segment. But basically, the people that hijacked and made the changes to Bitcoin to keep it slow and expensive so that it isn't usable as cash, those same people funded all three U.S. CBDC pilots. So now Bitcoin has been taken out of the running. It can't be used as an alternative to CBDCs. And the same people that made those changes are actually funding the CBDC

development. So Roger was exposing that. I had actually interviewed him about three weeks before he was arrested, and he was about to start to get real traction on this, and the world was about to learn about it. But the other thing is, three days before he was arrested, he was at a cryptocurrency conference talking about the importance of privacy coins and privacy tokens as a way to stop central bank digital tyranny. So Roger was not only exposing the hijacking of Bitcoin, but he was also starting to come out and talk about what some tangible solutions are. I mean, I like to say it this way, that one of the coins he's talking about now is Zeno. So they wanted to crucify Bitcoin Jesus

so he didn't become Zeno Zeus because they know how effective he is at getting the message across about how to use these cryptocurrencies all over the world. What do we want people to do? And I guess I will ask that of each of you. Robert, I'll ask you first. What should people be doing people to do and i guess i will ask that of each of you uh robert i'll ask you first what should

people be doing both to help sort of imagine robert you're more concerned as am i with re-establishing the bill of rights frankly and sort of buttressing it in some way uh and then i'm guessing aaron i my question to you would be more on the zone of how do we protect ourselves from what you think is coming. But Robert first. Yeah, I mean, I think it's critical. I think, you know, I like to say that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing people he doesn't exist. The greatest trick the system ever pulled is convincing people that you cannot resist. And I think that a lot of what we've seen the last five years is trying to dissuade people from resisting, to dissuade people from stepping in front of that tank in Tenement Square. Say, think twice about that, or you may end up like

Roger Ver in prison for 109 years for doing nothing more than following your lawyers and accountants' advice to pay taxes to a country you are no longer even citizen of. So that, I think, is the message that they're trying to send. And so the counter has to be we have to stay self-educated, stay involved, stay active, stay connected. This election proved the capacity to override all kinds of censorship and bias and support people like Roger Ver, like Ross Ulbrich, these other cases. I'm encouraging President Trump, open up a whole lawfare group inside the White House. Pardon people every week to highlight this case, how it went AWOL. How did this case go AWOL? What's wrong with our criminal and civil justice system? That is, we've talked about many Americans, a majority have lost faith in it. We got to restore faith and

confidence in the greatest American, greatest legal system ever produced. And that can be done by making sure people are not politically prosecuted, like Roger Ver is currently being Bitcoin Jesus, being crucified by this administration. Other than you, listening to you and Viva, is there someplace else in specific people should send their energy? Yeah, so there's a group of people that support Roger that have started the freerogernow.org site. And it has a petition on it that people can sign, they can support. It's also a one-stop shop where they can get all the information. So the legal documents are all put up there.

They can read it for themselves, make their own determination, see whether what I'm saying is right or wrong. They can see it right there in the affidavits, the declarations, sworn testimony, lawyers, documents lawyers documents exhibits you name it all that's going to be available and constantly uploaded uh at free roger now according to the people that i know that are a part of that site uh because we understand collectively this is a very important case for all of our freedoms and aaron feel free to pile on and also add in what we do to protect ourselves so we don't mind. Yeah, I would say absolutely go to freerogernow.org and sign the petition immediately, but also send it to your friends. One of the things about social media is these social media sites don't want you going outside of their site.

So they'll really suppress any external links. So contact your friends directly. Send people direct messages. Go on Telegram, Signal. Let's get the word out there because a lot of people say, well, this is worthless. This isn't really going to help. But Lynn Ulbricht, to me, is an absolute hero and inspiration. And she has been fighting for over a decade in work to get over 600,000 signatures. And it made a difference. And it's one of the reasons that Trump was willing to talk to the Libertarian Party and were able to kind of negotiate this commitment to commute Ross's sentence on day one. The other thing is, why are they doing this?

And in my opinion, part of why they're going after Roger is they want to have a chilling effect. They want to have a chilling effect on the information that's in hijacking Bitcoin and on what Roger was starting to talk to the marketplace about, which is this cryptocurrency Zeno. And so what I think we should do is take the chilling effect they're intending to have and make it a galvanizing effect. I'm very pleased to see that after Roger's interview yesterday, hijacking Bitcoin is now the number one ranked book in the cryptocurrency category on Amazon. So go buy hijacking Bitcoin. Read Hijacking Bitcoin

because it will absolutely open your eyes. And then let's turn this whole charade into an opportunity to increase adoption of privacy cryptocurrencies. So download a xeno.org wallet.

My bet is that's what Roger would be doing. If he hadn't been arrested, he probably would have been out talking about both of these things. So let's help amplify that. We don't individually have his voice. Z-A-N-O.

Can you spell it? Z-A-N-O. Z-A-N-O. That's where you buy it? That's where you buy it. That's where you download the wallet. Yes. Ah.

There it is. Okay. It comes right up. Okay. Well, I'm just going to start fast. Oh, you get a weird... Oh, boy. It's got a weird front page, but okay.

Z-A-N-O, right? Z-A-N-O, correct. I got redirected to Zano.com. Isn't that interesting? So it won't let me go to Zano.org. Hold on here. Let's make sure I can get in there. Because I clearly typed in there. Because I

clearly typed in. It should be a blue site. My computer is having trouble. It will not go in. It went to xano.com. Which is interesting, right? Is somebody blocking this maybe?

Oh, that's it. That's the site. Did you get in? Yeah, I got in. Oh, Z. I'm sorry. I put X-A-N-O. I beg your pardon. Z-A-N-O. oh that's it that's the site did you get in yeah I got in that's Caleb got oh Z I'm sorry I put X-A-N-O I beg your pardon Z-A-N-O

beg your pardon okay fine Z-A-N-O communist plot perfect all right paranoid paranoid much

there it is confirmation bias expecting trouble finding it okay so I listen I really appreciate you guys

being here and explaining this to us and sounding the alarm where we can. freerogernow.org, where both these guys are sending you, as well as zano.org, Z-A-N-O, not X like me. Speaking of X, Aaron R. Day is where you can follow Aaron. And then Barnes underscore law on X for Robert Barnes. And don't forget the Viva Barnes show. Is that also streamed live? Yeah.

Yeah. We do it every Sunday at usually 6 p.m. Eastern time. We do it live. People hop in, have conversations. We've discussed this case and others. And it's fascinating. And Viva has the same curiosity about trying to figure out Bitcoin that you do.

But he has recently tasted Amos Miller's fresh milk, and he agreed with me. He's not even a milk fan. And he's like, that's the best milk I've ever had. So I gotta buy some Zano. I gotta buy some Zano. Oh, how do you buy the milk? Good question. Oh, amosmillerorganicfarm.com.

Amos Miller Organic Farm, that's where he doesn't operate it because the Amish don't do that. Someone else does it for him. But you can get all bunch. Right now, you can still get it. The government's still trying to shut them down. So that, you know, you don't know how long it'll be available.

So while you can still get it, still get it. So I got to buy some Zano. I got to buy some Amos Miller milk. And I'm talking to some friends who drink organic organic or organic milk and then i want to get i don't know where to get it like where do you get it i want to get that gold-based uh crypto when it comes out in the new year all right gentlemen thank you so much for being here we appreciate it it's been very interesting this is all kind of as i told you at the beginning a exact iron you weren't quite in here yet i was telling robert this is not an area i beg ignorance but you guys

did a good job of surveying the topic and helping me understand it better. And I'm sure other people appreciate that as well. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, Robert. Read the book, as Aaron pointed out. That's always good advice. And as I say, look at Marc Andreessen's reading recommendations.

Just what he's reading now is what... I read a great book on Lenin. I read a great book on the French Revolution. I'm reading a book on true believers that I think came from him. But lots more to go for this week. Caleb, I want to put up the guest for tomorrow.

We're going to be at 11 a.m. Very special show with Matthias Desmond. 11 a.m. Pacific. Matthias Desmond and Aaron Cariotti. Susan heard them speak together at the Brownstone Institute, and she cannot get over it. Desmond, Lemonade and Pacific, Matthias Desmond and Aaron Cariotti. Susan heard them speak together at the Brownstone Institute and she cannot get over it. I want them to do it again. So we'll try to recreate

the magic. Justin Hart in here. Get sad on the 18th. I can't read any of the other stuff, Susan, because there's a camera left over from your show in front of everything. Is there anything you can read from there? Oh, here's, I can read over here. Tomrens and Harry Fisher and then on the 23rd,

Matt Waltz and what is that thing? Navy SEAL Joel Lambert. And the Jeff Dye, we're going to be in Florida on that day, so we have to move that around yet again. January 7th? Yeah. So maybe we'll be in New York, maybe we can meet him there. I don't know, we'll figure something out.

In any event, we appreciate you all being here. We appreciate it. Well, he, I think he's the one that bagged out of the other one. The last, the latest one.

Very interesting. We appreciate it. Again, other topics you want to hear us discuss, dr.com slash contact. Susan and Emily and Caleb pour through that.

So send them. Contact at drdrew.com. I beg send them. Contact at drdrew.com. I beg your pardon. Contact drdrew.com. And we will see you all tomorrow at 11 a.m. Pacific. You do not want to miss it. You don't want to miss it. We'll see you there.

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