Ask Dr. Drew - Sage Steele: Child S*x Offender Has Baby Boy LEGALLY With “Disgusting” Loophole In Pennsylvania Law + John Leake – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 515

Episode Date: August 3, 2025

A legal loophole allowed Brandon Mitchell to bring home a baby boy via surrogacy, despite the fact that he was convicted of child sex abuse in 2016. Mitchell drew public outrage after posting a disturbing video of the baby on social media, with many calling for Pennsylvania laws to be changed – the state has strict oversight on adoption but different rules for surrogacy. Reduxx reports: “While Pennsylvania’s adoption law does prohibits s*x offenders from adopting or fostering children, gestational surrogacy circumvents any such laws through pre-birth parentage orders.” York County DA Tim Barker says the loophole is a critical issue and urged lawmakers to protect kids with new legislation. Mitchell’s attorney, Peter Kratsa, defended his client by saying Mitchell completed his sentence, counseling, and that there is no evidence he has reoffended. Sage Steele hosts The Sage Steele Show on Club Random Studios. She was a lead host at ESPN from 2007-2023, anchoring SportsCenter and NBA Countdown. Steele has covered major events like the Super Bowl and hosted ABC’s The View. She serves on boards for The Boys & Girls Club and The V Foundation. More at https://sagesteele.com John Leake is a co-author with Dr. Peter McCullough of “Vaccines: Mythology, Ideology, and Reality“. He writes investigative reports for Focal Points on Substack and is secretary of the McCullough Foundation. More at https://focalpoints.com 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/sponsors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ACTIVE SKIN REPAIR - Repair skin faster with more of the molecule your body creates naturally! Hypochlorous (HOCl) is produced by white blood cells to support healing – and no sting. Get 20% off at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/skinrepair⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • VSHREDMD – Formulated by Dr. Drew: The Science of Cellular Health + World-Class Training Programs, Premium Content, and 1-1 Training with Certified V Shred Coaches! More at https://drdrew.com/vshredmd • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) and Susan Pinsky (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/firstladyoflov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So much show, too much show. Sage Steel joins me in the studio. John Leake will join us. He has a new book about vaccines through Peter McCullough and his group. It's getting a little bit of heat actually. Not necessarily a good way as anything that dares to question orthodoxy does.

Let me get you specifics on Sage. Sage Steel Show on Club Random, at Club Random Studios. No, you're gone there, okay. I'm by my lonesome now. Random, at Club Random Studios. No. No, you're gone there, okay. I'm by my lonesome now. All right, SageSteel.com. Yes, sir. S-A-G-E-S-T-E-E-L-E.

And I'm gonna let you give all the particulars. She is well known, she has a story to tell. We got a lot to get into, don't go away. Our laws, as it pertains to substances, are draconian and bizarre. Psychopaths started this race. He was an alcoholic. Because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin.

Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for ****. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. But just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time.

Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop, and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. MUSIC No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at NoFriills.ca. I've spent most of my career dealing with illnesses that shorten life, and now we have

ways to extend it and extend wellness. I've been working with the team over at VShred to develop a product that has everything I want in a longevity supplement. And our boost has nicotinamide riboside. You know how metal can rust? Well, your body behaves in a similar way. It's mediated through something called NAD. NAD falls as we age, so we're less able to fight off

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which is a well-known anti-aging antioxidant. Again, I don't like supplements that have a ton of ingredients. To me, it suggests that none of it's working. When I prescribe a medication, I prescribe that medicine because I expect that to work. That is exactly what I've done with these products. And I want you to go to drdrew.com

slash vshredmd for 10% off. Again, that is drdrew.com slash V Shred MD. So because I screwed up her intro, Sage Teal everybody, to do her own intro. So I just did you and Dave's real friends show. Serious actual friends. Because we're all actual friends. We are actually friends.

And it was so, he called me this morning, he goes, Russell, whatever Russell does isn't available. And I said, I absolutely I'll be here right now. And I had some technical problems. I literally always do when I do Dave. But I got through. What does that say about Reuben? It's not him, it's they insist on that riverside system

and I never worked on my system. So where else can they go? Where can they find you? Where else? Yes, Sage Deal Show on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts, did I say that right? Yes.

I'm still new to that world where you have to push. I didn't know the importance of subscribers. I'm network television for 30 years and you just come in and you do your job and you produce the heck out of it and you do your highlights and your interviews and you go home. Did you produce your own stuff back then?

We, at ESPN, where I was for almost 17 years, we, I mean, the level of production was deep. I mean, many layers deep. But for our own segments, whether it's a highlight breakdown or interviews, there was a segment producer, but often they were young, right out of college, and you're like, okay, we're going to throw this away,

we're going to start over. I loved that part of it. Producing it, coming up with the questions, the videos, the graphics, awesome people there, but we were very much part of it. So that is exactly the way news is produced and people don't know that, particularly cable news, and exactly the way you described it,

with the youngsters writing the scripts, putting it in the prompter. And what I used to do is I used to run through the script and go, no, no, no, sorry. They really were very talented people, but just I, no, sorry, or it doesn't work like that, or I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that, but it's fascinating to me, and I think doing it for enough years, I know when sorry, or it doesn't work like that, or I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that, but it's fascinating to me,

and I think doing it for enough years. I know when someone's just reading. Just reading teleprompter stuff that they gave them. You know what? Okay, we're going to gossip. We're going to gossip about, oh, for gosh sakes. Which one? The one on Fox that Greg Gutfeld always makes fun of

with the dark hair, that he claims is bald. Help me somebody. He claims his bald. Yeah, he makes fun of him for being hair or that he claims is bald. Help me somebody. He claims his bald. Yeah, he makes fun of him for being bald. I don't know if he's bald. Oh, Jesse, because he's green hair? Jesse, Jesse. So Jesse, Jesse's, he asks good questions.

He really does. But 90% of what he does on his show is reading and it is so high quality. I sat backstage at his place the other day and I called his producer. I said, I see what you guys are doing. That's what you put in the prompter is phenomenal. It is.

And he delivers it well. It's an art. And I wasn't even aware he was reading a lot of the time, but he really does, that's to me, that's the best version of that, what he does. Yeah, I would agree. He's very good at that, talented. And I think that it's a combination where you have your producers

and your writers specifically for shows like that. And think about Bill Maher on his show. Oh, that's highly, but they- Word for word. But they cut him loose at a certain point, which is his genius, right? And you have to allow the talent to put their personality into it.

It's one thing if you're on CNN or even Fox News with news, but if it's an opinion show and you're speaking as if it's your opinion, like you're getting help with it, the delivery is everything. And to me, even if it's in the prompter, I never read word for word, because probably only 40% was in the prompter in sports. It's very personality driven.

Well, I would ask them to bullet it sometimes. Yeah. Just don't even put, yeah. Because I think people at home can tell. We underestimate that. But I don't know if you're like, let me pull them to bullet it sometimes. Just don't even put, yeah. Because I think people at home can tell. We underestimate that. But I don't know if you're like, let me pull the curtain back on myself. I'm a shitty prompter reader. You can tell when I'm reading the prompter.

Susan, back me up on that. Do you blink? No, you're good. You have to blink. Well, she thinks I'm good. I think I suck. As compared to what I can do and I'm just thinking and asking

and actually interested, I think that's more what people want to see, it seems to me. It's true, and I do think people see through it. And so when you, but it does take some confidence and taking some risks and you challenge yourself. And by putting just bullet points in there, you're trusting your ability

to have a conversation with yourself. And I think that people have a fear of doing that. I'm going to say that I think I had decades on the radio to work that out. Radio is all about that. It's just- Radio's so hard compared to TV in that way because you're ad libbing.

It's different. You're having conversations. You're filling. Yeah. So television's about saving time, radio's about filling time. It's very different. And then the stupid back announcing

and call letters and all that. I hated that stuff. Let me, I wanted to ask a couple things here. First of all, are you doing more stuff with Dave Rubin than just the actual friends? Right now, just actual friends. Okay. And I love it and it's weekly,

and we're just trying to have conversations, God forbid. Susan, not only is a fan of yours, but she's a fan of, or both fans of Dave Rubin, but she's a fan of Russell Brands. So Susan, do you have any questions about her actual friend show with Russell? I love him. I do too. And I didn't know what to expect, you know,

because you have that public persona and the Hollywood guy, and I mean, funny and then quite controversial. And right when this show was starting, actual friends, that is when all of his legal stuff came up, rape allegations, et cetera. And so, you know, there were conversations like, huh, this timing isn't great for us. And Jillian Michaels was part of it at the beginning.

What happened, Jillian? I thought she was in there. She's got some contractual stuff and she's so busy all over the place. She might join us, but right now it's been awesome with three people because as you know, the more people you have, the tougher it is to have a conversation.

But we were public about that in the first show saying, hey, if this stuff ends up being true, we're going to take a step back from sitting next to Russell Brand. If any of these, you have to let that process play out. I was going to say, I am really sick and tired though, of people running away from somebody that has an allegation. If he's convicted of something, then by all means, or if it looks bad, like the data is coming in, it's like, we ourselves are comfortable with this. But I feel- He's owned it all. He's owned all of it and we ourselves are comfortable with this, but I feel.

He's owned it all. He's owned all of it and how he was in his past life. I know. Here's the message. Here's the story, here's my story about brosopharm. I'm going to look at that camera. Here, I'm going to, nope, that one over there, we go, okay. So I'm going to deliver absolute wisdom here.

Okay, ready? Deliver spitting wisdom. Drug addicts do shitty things, okay? Done, okay, anyway. So, I mean, if Drug addicts do shitty things. Okay, done. Okay, anyway. I mean, if drug addicts in their disease couldn't be forgiven for what they did, it's probably the men's is part of the process. If they couldn't get better,

then I don't know what I was doing working all those years with people with addiction. I know, and who are we to judge? I really do believe that. What I know is how he's treated me. And it's been absolutely incredible and kind. And what I didn't realize about Russell Brand, he is brilliant.

If I don't have like my thesaurus ready, I don't know what the hell he's talking about half the time. Like he is so smart and well-read and has opinions that make me think. And that's why I love that show. So that is what has kind of come from the friendship with Dave Rubin. And that's how I actually met you.

Should we tell our story? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, please go ahead. It was probably a little over a year. I think it was spring of 2024. And I was back and forth from here in Los Angeles when I was doing my podcast solely in LA. That is no longer happening. No offense to all you people here.

It's tough to come to LA every single week. Oh my God. And so Dave Rubin said, Hey, I want to get a bunch of my friends together. And he knew I hadn't met a bunch of you and was nice, a bunch of you people. You big famous Hollywood LA people. I was like, oh gosh,

I don't think I belong with this group. And all of you were so kind and welcomed me into this fancy dinner. Dave Rubin did well. It was a nice dinner. It was nice. I felt guilty. And I have proof that you felt guilty.

Well this wasn't, I realized Dave gave us crap this morning. We were going to be on the, I'm out on the actual friends with you guys next week. It airs tomorrow. Oh, tomorrow. Friday. Okay. Well I will pull, tell you something that happened on the show. He started giving me griefless saying though,

don't you think I can afford it? Is that why you and say, and I started thinking why did I decide to split a meal with you, which is what happened. And I was on a diet then. I was on a diet and I didn't want to order a full meal. Are you serious? Yeah, and you started talking about not wanting this.

I said, let's split. Yeah. I thought you just wanted to bond with me. I did, it worked out fine. We did bond. It was good, it was good. And our first meeting I was like, Dr. Drew, he's cool splitting.

Here's the thing, I was not in a diet. I wanted one of everything. And you're like, calm down over there. And then we all made fun of thing, I was not in a diet. I wanted one of everything. And you're like calm down over there. And then we all made fun of, Susan this is really funny. So Corolla is sitting next to Dave, I always forget his name, Sacks, David Sacks, the billionaire.

And Corolla, you know how he is, he leans over and goes, hey you want to split a potato? He split a big potato. Literally a millionaire with literally a billionaire. And then me in the middle of all of it going, what the hell am I doing here? It was pretty fun though, wasn't it?

It was so much fun and just that freedom to say what you want and around people that you know it's not going to go anywhere. But again, you guys were all such a diverse group. Dennis Prager was there as well, the head of the table, of course, Dave at the other end. But it was cool and special to be included, and that's how we met.

Saw you again in person at, it was the White House Media Day? Is that what they called it? This is back in like March. It was sort of Influencer Day or something. We were invited into the executive building to meet with sort of cabinet level people and interview them.

It was amazing, it was great. And that's when I met your better half. Yes, she was there running everything. I was and interview them. It was amazing. It was great. And that's when I met your better half. Yes. She was there writing everything. I was the tech crew. Yeah. Yeah. Susan, take it in. You were getting it done though. On an iPhone.

On an iPhone. I was like, oh my goodness. If Susan and Drew are getting it done on an iPhone, I have no excuse right now. And you had RFK. You had everybody there on the iPhone. But she has some fancy little microphones and things that really help, right?

You use the little fancy mics, didn't you? Yeah. The levelers. It's all hidden, all very hidden, but she is hot. She's beautiful. Oh, thank you. Don't screw it up, okay? I will not, I assure you I will not.

Follow Sage on Edge. Been together a long time. There's a reason to follow me. At Sage Steel, just one word, and SageSteel.com, and then LinkedIn, is that LinkedIn? I think I'm on LinkedIn still, you know, hey, I always need another job, right? But then Instagram, oh, I'm on Patreon now,

and that's been fun, like I'm a brand new user to Patreon. Getting all the BTS behind the scenes stuff, probably way too much. I'm also about to get married. Congratulations, I've met your fiance. Four weeks from tomorrow, congratulations. So Lord help us, pray for us, stuck probably way too much. I'm also about to get married. Congratulations, I've met your fiance. Congratulations. So Lord help us, pray for us.

Because I mean, why would you want to hire a wedding planner when you're busy trying to build a business? The last four weeks are a lot. Why would you want to do that? Oh, it's a lot. So we're four weeks out. And can I drink more wine? Is that okay?

Is that okay? Be careful. That's all I'm saying. Don't kiss everybody though. Don't what? Kiss everybody at your wedding. Oh, don't kiss everybody. Don't. Don't, because though. Don't what? Kiss everybody at your wedding. Oh, don't kiss everybody? Don't.

Because we, are you going on a honeymoon right after? No, we're going on a little break. Like a week getaway. Because we kissed everybody at our wedding and we both ended up sick essentially. You sound like a COVID fear monger. No, no, no, no, no, not us. We're going to talk about vaccines a little later.

That is not us. So don't make out with people at your wedding ceremony. I like the way Susan just walks in front of the camera. Well done. So, yeah, no, no, we are, I actually have issue with people denying their biological reality and wanting to live forever

and dedicating their life to longevity. Like there are things you can do for longevity and I work out every day and that's one of them. But this idea that there's sort of you can't die or you won't die, denial of death, denial of being biological, I hate that. That's also, it makes you not live. Right, because there is that fear.

Biology is, we are biological beings and there's risk in everything for us and if you lean into that too hard, you're not going to live, you have to live. Is it bad that I judge people who wear masks 24 7 now, like on planes? I seriously judge them. So I have different categories of judging. So I just interviewed a guy yesterday who is going to go to prison for refusing

to wear a surgical mask when he was counting votes at a volunteer on an isolated island in Washington with no covid. Yeah, I know it sounds crazy. That's crazy. Yes. They kept upping the violation. In America. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

And my thing is really, I have two reactions now. One is what have we done to these people? Oh my God. And it's by the way, I was watching a demonstration against the firing of Colbert. There were like 13 people out in front of CBS. But half of them had masks on, surgical masks outside. I'm like, this is no longer even a talisman.

This is like some sort of totem. It's like a magical instrument you carry around. It's the weirdest thing. So I have two categories. One is, look, if you're on a plane and you want to wear a tightly fitting N95 and you never take it off for any reason from the moment you leave your house

to the moment you get in your hotel room, all right, you want to do that, go ahead. Who am I to say? Fine, you want to protect yourself. But if you're pulling the mask down between bites or you're wearing a surgical mask with all kinds of empty spots here for the virus to get in, unsealed, unsealed, and the surgical mask with a big, with all kinds of empty spots here for the virus to get in.

None unsealed, unsealed. And the surgical mask itself doesn't do anything, just the actual material. Says it on the box of surgical care. It's not for viruses. Then I just think, what have we done with these people? We've hurt these people. They're injured psychologically.

This might be risky to bring up, but. Here we go. No, I've noticed it. We gotta tell a story of how you got fired and stuff too. Okay. Speaking of bringing risky things up, you seem to not shy away from risk, so I like that, so let's go.

There's a real beauty in not caring anymore. And once, I do think it's age and wisdom. I've got both of those going for me at this point and being through enough through enough shit storms Yeah, you go through enough shit storms you start going whatever another one real exactly I mean once I had been canceled the first time and I was like, okay, I woke up the next morning Still there. It's not a job. Yeah, and then it keeps happening you go. Wow, they're trying to make you stop That's why it's it's a mob mentality. And now I don't care because I think it's so important

to have conversations and ask questions, even if it gets you in a little bit of trouble. That's what's been lacking. That's why we're in this position in the first place. I notice a lot of African-Americans with masks. I see in airports, on airplanes, I would say 80% are black and I wonder what that is. I'm thinking about some of my patients

that are African-American and wear the mask, but I don't know that they wear it on the outside world. They may just wear it when they come into the doctor's office kind of thing. How often are you on airplanes? Often. Right. But I haven't really noticed it,

but what I have noticed is black flyers, African-American flyers that wear the mask, wear it here. Where it does nothing. It does nothing. So I'm like, what is that? I don't know what it is. And the deeper point of it is why? We're several years out now

and there has been enough news stories, even admissions on some of the left-leaning networks that they did nothing. And that was BS, really. So why are we continuing to do that? Like what is here? What fear have they created with children as well? So I just-

Is it anti-Trump thing maybe? It's Trumped arrangement sort of? It could be that virtue signaling with that as well. I don't know. Maybe they weren't vaccinated. Ooh, that's a good thought. I bet they were. No, no, a lot of African-Americans were not vaccinated.

In fact, SNL did a whole skit on this one. Brilliant. Yeah, they did a skit where there was a white family and a black family and the black family was like, oh, you gotta get that vaccine. You gotta get it. Oh, that Trump guy, you gotta get the vaccine. And then the white family went, well, when are you getting

yours? Like, oh, we're, we'll make, you know. Oh no. It was very- How can we find those numbers? they went, well, when you get here is like, we're, we'll make, you know, it was very- How can we find those numbers? That's a really interesting, somebody, Caleb, look that up, see what you can find. So how many black Americans are vaccinated versus white? I think there was some significant, look,

think about it this way. The African-American community has been poorly served by the medical community throughout the history of the United States, both on the psychiatric side, on the medical side. There is a reasonable and healthy, I would say, skepticism about the medical community. I think that served a lot of black Americans

during the pandemic, it really do. I like that, if that's the case, where there's, let's step back and there's a deeper thought about it. Because, I mean, on a different level, just when you look at these inner cities and the big blue cities and how nothing has changed over the last 60 years of democratic rule, if nothing else, it's gotten worse.

And so when people start to take that step back, which I think really happened over the last year in particular, when you look at what happened with Barack Obama right before the election, and he went in and scolded black voters. And then more blacks voted for a Republican candidate than in the last half century, right? So I think when you continue to put people in this box

and shove them down, and you are black, so therefore you must vote like this, and think like this, and drink like this, and eat like this, and marry like this. After a while, you're like, wait, what a minute? What the heck is happening? Why are these people doing it? And look at the result. The results have continued to remain the same if not worse.

So good if there's some questioning. But it doesn't add up then. Right? It is odd. Yeah, I'd love to hear. Oh, here we are. Oh no, this, oh yes, we have to, we're supposed to talk about this thing.

We will, we've been so busy talking to each other. They want us to talk about the sex offender who brought home the baby using a loophole of a surrogate I don't feel any thoughts about that. I let me go ahead you tell me your thoughts on this Disgusting. I mean who wouldn't think that that's disgusting no matter no matter who it is That is a sex offender that brings home a baby How do you get to that point in the process where adoption is so difficult for millions of people in this country, right? That's why they go elsewhere, to other countries to do it.

And not cost effective either, it's so expensive. So with all the background checking that has to take place in order for an adoption to be completed or the process to even begin, how did this get through? And it's two gay men who- I want to find out, I want to find out. I want to find out how, because I worry, here's what I worry about.

And people are going to crush me for this. Go ahead guys on the rumble rants. And by the way, I don't disagree with you. Here's what I worry about. Which is the whole thing feels just so skeezy. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But I don't want to judge because I'm looking at something where I think I see what I'm seeing.

I want to know the facts. What are the facts? And the facts was he was essentially a child pornography user and he sort of tried to procure something from a 16 year old. You know, he might've been a sex addict that got treatment. People do get better. Much we said like drug addicts do shitty things.

Sex addicts do shitty things too and they can get better If there's evidence of a problem and a treatment and an outcome and then holding accountable somebody Don't you think it's different if that sex addiction? trickles in with Minor it Happens more than you imagine and it's the legal legal system must exert their full effect on that. But that is different than somebody who is a chronic pedophilic.

That's a different thing. We don't know if this guy is that or not. She has to think. And even, but to me, even if there's an inkling of it and there is an underage minor, a minor involved in it, and you're trying to adopt a child. Yep. And look, and to be fair,

if that became the law of the land, I'd be like, fine. But I just worry in this world where we look at pictures and hear things, go, oh my God, I just worry about the mob. I worry about mobs acting on things. Because we're anti-cancellation, right? We don't want people to- I'm anti-cancellation, I'm also anti-pedophilia. Right.

And I, but I'm pro gay men having a surrogate, you know, that's fine. Absolutely. I mean, our friend Dave Rubin. Yes. He and his husband David have two beautiful little boys. They have two surrogates. And it's-

Have you been down there to see them? They're so fun, yeah. Yes, those boys are precious. I love them. I don't go to see Dave and David, I go to see the boys. Of course, we all do. And the dogs, like don't go to see Dave and David. I go to see the boys Of course Yeah, I used to have visit dog here when he was in Encino, yep, but that also is why I'm a little Upset over it because what that does to many people is they just automatically put everybody in the same boat

See gay men they can't have children because this this one guy. So that's totally not fair, but when you allow this to happen, if there's, to me again, any aspect of it that involves a minor, you should not be qualified to adopt a child. With all the grooming, et cetera. I'm okay with that. And by the way, I'm getting crushed

on the restream and stuff. So as predicted. Well I must be too then. No, no, no, I am. I'm getting it. Why? What are they saying? He went for a minor. for it. No, no, no, I am. I'm getting it. Why? What are they saying? He went for a minor.

Absolutely not. No, no, no. OK, so they agree with me. Outrageous. And so they're with you. Yeah, they're with you. I knew they would be. But I just can't help myself that I just, I just.

But isn't it a fact that a minor was involved? Yes. He went to prison. And he needed to go to prison. OK, so why are you even waffling at all about this? Because I absolutely think he should have gone to prison. What I'm saying is people can rehabilitate sometimes, not always, but sometimes.

But so how do we know if he was rehabilitated? Well, that's the point, but I want to leave the door. How can you take that chance with a child? Well, see, that's what I'm saying. If you want to close that door, okay. I close it. Yeah, but on the other hand, if somebody can vouch and a doctor's following him and blah, blah, blah, blah.

I just don't know how you follow up on that. Consistently, once a year, do you come sit down and- No, no, no, you have to be going to meetings every day. You have to be doing stuff every day. And so to me, it's not even worth the risk for a child. Like, because it's so hard to rehabilitate. I don't disagree with you. I don't disagree.

I'm raising this little loophole myself and going, I'm just so worried about the world where, judge and jury is the mom. I just worry about that. And I want to add this to it because someone very, very, very close to me and my family is the only thing I'll say. Years ago was accused of rape. Falsely accused.

Not even close. There was no kiss, there was nothing. Someone was late returning home from her curfew and got scared and said, no, I was over at his house and immediately it blew up. And let me tell you, for that week, before this teenage girl admitted that she made up the story, what that did to his family, to him as a human being,

it changed his life. And in the sports world, you look at what happened to the punt god and the former Buffalo Bills punter and the young woman accused him of rape and then it later came back that he was innocent. But what happened? They cut him from the team.

His NFL career was over. Complete cancellation. You don't get that back. So I just want to point out, I am super sensitive to it as well, and we must allow the legal process to take place first. When you cut this game. With Russell, same thing.

People went through this whole thing of believe all accusers. It's like, no, I worked in a psych hospital. Women have abused that at times. And I saw lots of accusations that were, I know for sure weren't true because there always were two or three people in the room. Always. Okay, so what if we have this fact?

Yeah, no, no, I don't disagree with you. You see, I'm not disagreeing. I'm trying to get you to admit it. Oh no, I would, if there are legislation or something, I would be fine. That's fine with me. It's the behavior of the mob that I'm bringing up as the issue.

Yeah, so speaking of, well this isn't so much mob behavior, but we had a conversation this morning I wanted to pick up on that I'm just so fascinated by, because the average person doesn't know about it, and it should be kind of in the discourse. And you recoiled when I brought it up. You had a reaction to it. I'm going to recoil again. Because you had a story, of your own story about it and it should be in the, it should be kind of in the discourse. And you recoiled when I brought it up, you had a reaction to it. I'm going to recoil again.

Because you had a story of your own story about it. And what I said was, here's what I said. We were talking about the Sydney Steel thing, Sydney Steel, Sydney Sweeney thing. And we were talking about the fact that Beyonce had the exact same pose, the exact same jeans, it didn't bring the issue of, didn't use words like offsprings.

It didn't talk about her genetics. I get it, whatever. But don't get too crazy about this stuff. There's a, is that Beyonce? Is that? Okay. But I said, look at Beyonce's hair and then look at Sydney Sweeney's hair.

Now I think a lot of the Sydney Sweeney thing is people being envious and jealous of Sydney. And I asked Susan about it last night and she, when we were on the stream, and she goes, well, she doesn't have a great ass and her, she's not that pretty. I'm like, oh my God, even you, you're all me. You're all just.

She's not stellar like Beyonce, but she's beautiful. She's put together well. She's pretty, she's pretty. But you know what? I also decided that I'd rather not be called a racist. I'd rather have a woman say, you're not as beautiful as everybody thinks, you know? I'm not quite sure what.

I'd rather not be called a fascist. Like I think if I had not. So I realized the new N word is Nazi. That's the new N word. Absolutely. If you're on the right. Well, I actually, okay, so she's not your classic beauty when you look maybe back at Cheryl Teagues and some other.

I'm a straight male, she's appealing, she's very, very appealing. She's an actor, she's not an American top model. She's all American looking. I want to get back to the hair. Put Sydney's hair up now, put Sydney's thing. We had Beyoncé's hair, and we had Sydney's hair. And I said to Sage, I go, you need to help me with this because I did a talk show that was very popular

with black women. And so we did topics for black women. And one of the things we did repeatedly was black women's hair. We had panels where women talked about it. And I learned so much. And they're saying, look at the blonde hair thing. And I thought, I wonder if the hair thing

is triggering to certain people, particularly black women. Again, the hair, Beyonce, and you told a story. And I'm going to ask you to tell the story again here. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But one of the things I learned about, look, I'm an old white man.

What do I know? And I wanted to learn, I wanted to understand what would be empathic. One of the things I learned is don't touch black women's hair. Do not touch it. And I didn't know that. I would have touched your hair today if I had not known that. But I.

Yeah, because it's wild and unpredictable. It took me, let me start with this. Susan, her hair is spectacular, right? It's beautiful, right? Yes, I love it. You have to say yes now. No, no, no, but it is. It's just getting good in the light.

It looks really good. But the people have to walk around with questions about their hair to me just is heartbreaking. So go ahead, tell the story. Well, I'll say this. First of all, in my industry and network television for all those years, I was always told you don't have the right hair for the job.

I was actually turned down from a major job 20 plus years ago. You should have owned that network. That is serious racist shit there. Oh yeah, 100%. I mean, I'd say five, six years ago when I was still at ESPN I had a boss who really meant well. He was a good guy and he's and I used to straighten it once a year just to see what it felt like to you know not have um first of all I'm unrecognizable. Secondly I looked a lot older.

Never mind let's go back to the curls. But um he came up to me and he's like can you do that every day? Can you just can you keep it straight? And I'm like hell no. This is way too hard What you all have to do this is way too difficult and it wasn't me, you know, because it took me 40 plus years really to be okay with this natural hair and if you more recently Local regional national TV there were never women recently, local, regional, national TV, there were never women, anchors, hosts, the chairs that I was in for all those years with curly hair. They had the typical anchor bob, look around Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, everywhere,

West Palm Beach, Florida, tiny markets. Nobody had curly hair when you're in that prominent of a role. And so they weren't used to it. But I was told 20 plus years ago, I won't even say the job it was because then it'll expose this person. But I was up for the job and he told my agent, listen, love her, she's got the chops for the job, et cetera. I don't like her hair. And I'm like, is this the reason why you're not going to give me a job?

This isn't like 2003. Times have certainly changed. He would never say that publicly now, I'm pretty sure, or to an agent that could have blown him up. And I said at the time, I was young, young mom, and I was like, I'll change it. I'll straighten it because this is a dream job. And for that to be the reason why I didn't get it

is what he told us, I was devastated. But again, I didn't have enough money to straighten this every single day or energy. The story happened in 2013 when I was hosting Sports Center. And for those of you UFC fans out there, Chael Sonnen, one of the biggest stars at the time, he was getting ready for a huge fight against John Bones-Jones.

And so Chael was in the studio. Am I speaking a different language with Chael and John Bones-Jones? You know these people? I mean, I know of that a little bit. I know them, I know them, but I'm not deep in it. Okay, you have much more important things in life. Trust me. But I've watched a fair amount of UFC here. And Chael's awesome I'm not deep in it. Okay, you have much more important things in life. Trust me.

But I've watched a fair amount of UFC here. Yeah, and Tails asked me, and he came in studio, and when I say, like, he is a ball of energy, and you better buckle up, especially on live TV, and it's so unpredictable, and I was kind of nervous, because I didn't know the sport as much then, but I was ready, and we're sitting there chatting about the upcoming fight, and he looked at me,

he's like, you've got great hair. And I was like, well, thanks. And then I'm like, awkward. And let me get back to asking the questions. And then out of the blue, he's like, can I touch it? And we're on a set, we're probably this far apart. And in a split second, I had this decision to make, look, it's cringing already.

I had the decision to make, do I say, no, don't touch my hair, and come across as some prissy, girly girl who's working in a man's world and sports talk and UFC, trying to be credible, even don't touch my hair. That wasn't great. Or I say, I don't care, it's a mess anyway, go for it. And then we'll continue the segment.

I chose the latter, and it didn't go so well. It was fine there, we got back on track. We got off the set and he's like, by the way, I was just kidding, you know? And I was like, I'm fine. The internet was not. And social media was not. I think it'd be 10 times worse now

because this is 12 years ago. And I just didn't take it that seriously. I've also, my whole life, had people say, oh my gosh, I love your hair. It's pretty, it's different, it's curly. And you're on TV with that and it's unique. So I didn't think anything of it. To this day, I get hate mail.

I mean, people have done full podcasts on how Sage Steele allowed a white man to touch her hair. I honestly didn't understand it. And for many people who have criticized me for that moment, this is the key. I think understanding people's why for any topic is important and no one understood. The reason why I didn't think it was a big deal. I'd never had the experience of a black woman with ethnic hair, with black hair. It's different. The hair is treated differently. You didn't have that experience.

I have what I call white girl hair that's curly. Because I have to, I probably wash it more than most white girls because it tames it more so, brings the curls back versus okay, you're going to try to put the dry shampoo in and keep going. I can't do that part. But it doesn't, the treatments are completely different.

Everything is different. I mean, if you touch my hair, your hair, your hair, versus a black woman's hair, and even many black men, it's a completely different texture. It's beautiful in its own way. I didn't understand, I didn't know the products. I didn't know the difference. I didn't know the sensitivity of it

because this is what I had. I'm biracial woman. My mom's white, Irish Italian, my dad's black. I am who I am. I'm not going to apologize for that But throughout my life junior high even high school it was oh, she's got good hair Good hair white girls didn't say that black women said that good hair So she thinks she is better than us because she has good hair and I was just I didn't understand it again

All I knew was this my own experience and and that I just had crazy curly hair, that I wanted straight hair like white girls because it seemed easier. And now look at that Beyonce photo. What does she have? Straight white hair. It's not hers. Blonde.

Obviously. So it's like you're in a lose-lose. And from that moment on, I literally every day get those comments. I think that long blonde hair like that is triggering somehow. I... Well, but when you say be proud of it

and own your ethnicity and your blackness and have pride with our black ethnic hair, and then you put a wig on top of it or extensions and you turn it blonde, well, are you owning it? And I don't care, she looks stunning. She's one of the most beautiful women on the planet, in my opinion. There's so much, I don't look at people based on race.

I don't start with, I don't lead with color. We all see it. I'm going to go all the way and tell you what I learned from these panels and it shocked me. And I, people, not me, somebody else, you know, communities need to talk about this, which is one of the women in one of the panels had sort of the Beyonce kind of hair,

but it was her own, it was straightening and blotting. And I said, you probably have great hair, why are you doing this? Well, you know, and she eventually said, the reason we go for this straight blonde hair is that's how the slave owner liked our hair to be and it came from them and I was like wow she took my breath away I went why aren't you doing the opposite why would you want to why do you why would you adopt but you know humans adopt trauma you know we had dropped

things that traumatize us and then it gets transmitted through I don't know I just makes I would say maybe that was say maybe that was a one-off, nobody feels that way and I just happened to interview somebody that did and it's none of my business. But I would encourage people to talk about these things so they don't carry this stuff around. They do what they wanna do

and they look the way they wanna look and it's all good. That's the thing. I think we live in a time, back in the 70s, you had to, everyone had to look like Leif Garrett. They had to have those, and Farrah Fawcett. That was that, and that's where some of this stuff came from too. All of us were subjected to that.

Anybody with the hair that didn't look that way, we're still trying to make it that way. And we thank God, live in a time now where you can be bald, you can have short hair, you have long hair, you can have curly hair. You can have blue hair, you can do whatever you want and I would say there is such a sense of progress And I'm gonna go find that series that you did it. I see this is just the beauty of you It was on a show called life changers. I don't know if it's out there somewhere some maybe Caleb

But yeah, but but it is so important to just talk and to understand it and I Remember I don't remember much about that panel except just being, we did an hour and I was just flabbergasted by the end. And I was just- But I think, and I'm flabbergasted that her reasoning, and this is just one woman, right? She's not speaking for everyone. Nope, she's not.

That, well, this is how the slave owners liked it, so we're going to continue. We're going to continue that ideal. But nobody else in the panel had the shock that I had. I was like, what, what? Can I follow that up real quick? Because after we did this earlier today on Natural Friends, I was talking to Dave, my fiance, and David, my producer,

and I was like, let me pull that clip up again from 2013. And it actually felt different to look at it again now. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and I think by talking it out, probably have a little bit of a different feeling about it. All I know is that, um, no worse. No, but because I, um, come to the right place. Timing is amazing. Thank you all these years. But in that moment, you know what it's like

on live national TV and it's a split second decision. And I think my reasoning for saying, I don't care, go for it. That's how I am in general. Like, okay, go for it. I'm not trying to be prim and proper. I'm the opposite of perfection. Oh my gosh, let me tell you. Oh, and you were with a UFC fighter

and you were being cool. Because if I'm sitting there stiff like that, I think it's an awful segment. I think you made the right choice. But would he do that today? Probably not. I mean, he's still gotten help. Or I saw him when we did gut fell together a few months ago and he still was like, he's like, I still get crap for that. And I'm like, I'm so sorry.

Like, it's so silly. But good. He learned something. Yes. But but he thought he was being funny. Number one. And it was if you watch it, thought, I took it as a joke, and it was actually a compliment. Like he thought my hair was pretty.

And so is that a bad thing? I mean, we have told all men these days, if you see, if you're working at a corporation and you're walking through the halls and a woman has a nice dress on, don't tell her about the dress. Oh, there it is. And that was the woman.

No, wait, that was the woman. But this was one of the shows. There, I think that. That's the, and that was the woman. No, wait, that was the woman. Oh, really? But this was one of the shows. There, I think that might've been the woman. I can't remember. The woman next to you in the purple, her hair is natural. Right, and she's, I forget her name,

but she was well known at the time as an actress. There she is. Remember, you recognize her? I can't remember her name right now. She's lovely. Were there a lot of disagreements? It was really about her going natural and what that took and that was a thing to do that, yeah.

Here's what I think the main point that everybody needs to understand with this. Mine was just one little thing that did affect me and doesn't affect me at the time it did. Now I'm like, again, if I'm through worse, go for it. Crush me, I don't care. But you have to take a step back and instead of immediately crushing that person, like if you understand

their why behind something, you might not agree with it, but maybe you can understand it and not fully judge. That's like anything. You don't know why. Maybe I vote for who I vote for. I've been certainly public. I'm a strong, staunch conservative. Instead of going sell out and fill out all the other words, huh, that's interesting. Why? And then you understand, don't have to agree what you understand.

So at that moment, it wasn't a big deal because I'm just out there like whatever, touch my hair. And to be then dubbed as sell out and then look at letting the white man pet her. So weird. So the fact that you brought it up today, I was like, I've actually never talked publicly about the topic of hair really to this level

because of the sensitivity of it. And I haven't also experienced what it's like as a black woman to have black ethnic hair. I don't know that experience either. All I know is mine and it was innocent. So I didn't tie together, by the way, Sidney Sweeney Beyonce thing with the hair. You're the only one that's done that so far.

Am I right? Am I onto something? I think it's beyond the hair. I think it's- It is, well, for sure it's beyond the hair, but that one thing kind of jumped out at me a little bit because of my experience with those talk shows But anybody who might have said but be that as it may I'm getting crushed right now. No, you're not as me

I'm sorry. They're still reacting to me in the pedophilia. So so so but I Appreciate you being willing to talk about it and I and I apologies if you get shit about it because I've pressed it a little Bit on two different environments, but I just think it's important to talk about it. So people's real experience come out, you know, that we need to, you brought the mask, I wanna understand about that. I wanna understand that women are judging Sidney Sweeney, what's really going on there.

We've turned everybody into cart, it could be, and we've turned everybody into cartoon characters, so we feel at our liberty to act out on them. That's not good. And are we kind of bored maybe for jumping on like this whole controversy with Sidney S Sweeney who happens to look hot in jeans for? American they're selling jeans. Congrats. There's a few other bigger things going on

And if this is what the left is freaking out over Wow John leak is gonna join us here the book I've got in my hand is vaccines Where's my camera here? See there you are It's over here. The title is Vaccines, Mythology, Ideology, and Reality. People are reacting to it in all kinds of good and bad ways. You lost your job because you refused to take a vaccine, correct, sorta, no? Indirectly. Indirectly.

So I didn't have time for you to tell that story because I know you've told it elsewhere, but I thought vaccine would be an interesting adjunct for you to talk about. Long story short, yeah, I stood up to Disney for four seconds to take the vaccine to keep our jobs. And then there was controversy that happened from there. I ended up suing Disney and leaving because of it,

but it was related initially to vaccines. All right, so we're gonna talk about vaccines, some of the controversy behind them with John Lee. Can you find John on X, John, oh, Sears, leak, S-E-A-R-S-L-E-A-K-E on X. He's got interesting websites, focalpoints.com on Substack and author John with an H leak, leake.com. Be right back with some, another guest

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So why would you question doctors? Dr. Drew called me unfixable. And a little note about TWC and the emergency kits. Emily Barsh, our crack producer who booked you, Sage, I believe as well, we were talking about her cat bite yesterday, and she reached into her emergency kit and got... She got it, like, kind of a...

Well, she got the augments and I was telling her she needed it. She was on it right away and that prevented... You can get serious pastorella infections from cat bites bad. All right, Paleo Valley. Of course, my favorites keep getting longer with them. Got the beef sticks, the superfood bar, just had a superfood bar, the bone broth before we started the show.

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Real olive oil. Yeah, it's the real deal. We were talking about cooking a beef tallow and I think Kate said, Kate, Shanahan said it was difficult. We were like, no, it isn't. We use it all the time. How do you use it in?

Susan. When you fry things instead of butter, you use beef tallow? I've used it on eggs. I've used it on quesadillas. I've used it on everything. Cookies. I use it on my face every night.

Interesting. Interesting. My daughter was like, every night. Interesting, interesting. My daughter was like, mom, this is the stuff. So I, and I've seen it online, people doing it. I didn't know it. So it's like coconut oil. Yeah. You can put it all over your body and eat it.

I did not think of that, but good one. Yeah, this is not Crisco. This is beef tallow. We'll send some home with you today. You can take that with you. Yeah, we'll give that to you. Anti-aging. All right, let's get to the program.

Let's get to John Leake, whose new book is Vaccines, Mythology, Audiology, and Reality. John, welcome to the program. There he is. How are you, sir? Hello, John. Uh-oh, he froze. Hello, John.

Caleb, I'm not sure if he hears me there. There you are. Hey, good to see you. There you are, John. Caleb, I'm not sure if he hears me there. There you are. Hey, good to see you. There you are. Excellent. Good to see you too. Sorry to keep you waiting so long. But Sage and I were, we haven't been together in a long time. We were chatting.

We got very chatty. But tell me about the book and what some of the premises are, and in particular, what premises or what findings that you come upon that might surprise people and that people are pushing back on. in particular, what premises or what findings that you come upon that might surprise people and that people are pushing back on? Well, we started with our astonishment

at the way the COVID-19 vaccine rolled out. Neither Dr. Peter McCullin nor I had ever given much critical thought to vaccines as a general concept. But over the last four years, we've watched how our public health authorities and vaccine manufacturers have presented this messenger RNA product to the public and mandated it.

And as Bill Gates stated in April of 2020, we would only go back to normal when every human on the planet received the new vaccine. Dr. McCullough and I started having conversations in which we asked, what is the story on this if we go back to the very beginning? It seems like this vaccine enterprise has a strong ideological element,

perhaps even bordering on a religious zealotry. This idea that as Bill Gates put it in April 2020, the vaccine was, even though it had not yet been developed, it was in the works, the vaccine was conceived as a savior and a liberator of mankind. So we thought, well, let's go back and examine the psychology of this going back to documentations in the early 18th century.

We start with a smallpox inoculation campaign in Boston, Massachusetts. In 1721, the foremost proponent was a very famous and I think very talented Puritan minister named Cotton Mather. Mather was the foremost proponent of the public inoculation campaign in Boston. And he said, you know, this is a gift from God. And he and his father, Increase Mather, agreed,

those who reject it are in effect rejecting a benefaction from God. And so we see this belief in vaccination, the enterprise, which is very resistant to critical analysis, discussion, a sort of skeptical scientific method. And that runs through the whole story. I would say the one element that distinguishes this from other religious experiences is that

from the very beginning, this early smallpox inoculation procedure, those who are licensed to perform the procedure, they called it variolation from Latin variola, the Latin word for smallpox, those who are licensed to perform this procedure could charge a very large sum of money. In fact, in the British American colonies, the estimate is that it was about an annual salary for the average colonist at the time is what the variolation procedure costs.

So I would, or was charged. So I would characterize this as something colonist at the time is what the variolation procedure costs. So I would, or was charged. So I would characterize this as something like a remunerative religion. So now it's interesting to me that it's odd, let's put it this way, that we are trained as physicians to understand that everything we do can do harm, right? And so we are sort of drilled into our head

the do no harm, do no harm, do no harm axiom. And in relation to that, always weigh the risk rewards. Is this worth the risk? And I feel like both in vaccine therapies and in public health generally, you're somehow not allowed to ask about the risk reward to the individual who is being treated in question. Is there something about public health itself?

And it's, again, you mentioned ideology or it's all nearly a religion, that it is somehow preventing or mandating that an individual practitioner not take into account risk reward? Well, it's a fascinating question and I'll give you an example of what you just asked in our modern era. So the CDC and the FDA were deliberating in the autumn of 2021,

should we administer this shot to young people, starting with teenagers, and then should we even consider children? And the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, we actually present this in a chapter in our book, Dr. Rubin. For some reason, Dr. Rubin's first name is slipping me. He's an adjunct professor at Harvard University and he's the editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine. He was on this deliberative committee and he's the editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine. He was on this deliberative committee

and he said, because the New England Journal of Medicine had just published a study on a confirmed case of myocarditis, which appeared to be vaccine induced in a young person, Dr. Rubin says, well, we have a safety signal with respect to young people. It seems to be real. It seems to be worthy of consideration. Also the risk reward profile for young people with this product doesn't seem to be the same

as it is for the elderly who seem to be at greater risk of severe illness from the disease. Nevertheless. So far so good. Nevertheless, this is the zinger. He then says, but the fact of the matter is we're not really going to be able to know the outcome of this until we just started ministering it. So. Oh my God.

Yeah. Let's just start giving it to kids and see what happens. You can't wing it. So let's just start giving it to kids and see what happens. You can't wing it. This is the let it fly. This is the let it fly philosophy that Fauci was accusing other people of. So again, whatever they say, you're something, it's a projection of their stuff. Go ahead. Well, so this is, I mean, I don't have to tell you, this is your line of work. I mean, this just flies in the face of late 20th, early 21st century ideas of, let's do a risk evaluation, try and weigh that against the benefit. When it comes to vaccines and we see it with Dr. Rubin,

I mean, he's the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine. I mean, you really don't get any higher in academic medicine. It's just kind of hail Mary, let's go for it and let's see what happens. And so where does that psychology come from? I mean, it seems to be deeply rooted in the human mind

going so far back. I mean, in the case of Cotton Mather, the Puritan minister in Boston in 1721, it's actually more poignant and understandable that he so enthusiastically embraced this, because in 1713, a very virulent measles outbreak occurred in Boston. And the Reverend Mather lost his wife, and I think three of his children and his maid servant, you know, within the space of like seven days. So he was impressed with the idea that

when a virulent infectious disease comes to town, it's just upon us. There seems, we don't really understand it. We don't really understand where it comes from. It's almost like a scourge that comes, you know, a biblical plague or something. So that this new idea of inoculation seemed to have this kind of charm.

It's a solution that's presented, it's at hand. It's something that we can do. It seems to offer, it seems to be an ingenious way to escape this scourge. So you understand Cotton Mather's reasoning and you can understand why this was the charming idea. I was a junior Cotton Mather for most of my career. I was a vaccine enthusiast.

Trust me, I was involved with hepatitis B vaccine research. I never imagined where we are now. And it feels like I think what I saw was the totalitarian instinct to taking hold in public health, which is everything is for the greater good of the whole and anyone who in any way brings up the individual needs to be crushed. And that's what it felt like. And so if you, it's a tiny step to, it doesn't matter what we do to the individual,

as long as the whole has a net benefit. And of course, it wasn't even clear they were achieving that, but that was the, in terms of the ideology and the psychology, it's the same mindset that closed the school in California for two years, and harmed kids horribly for that. Why? Because an elderly and elderly teacher

might have caught COVID somewhere. It's like, oh my God. It was such a bizarre chapter. And it makes sense to me that it attached itself to vaccines because vaccine had already built into it that same issue. And now all of a sudden, no vaccine can be questioned under any circumstances

because it's all for the greater good. It's true. I mean, one of the things that I've found over the years looking at the history of science, and in many ways our book is an intellectual history, science and in many ways our book is an intellectual history. You know, I think when Newton came up with a bunch of his theories of gravity and the calculus and thermodynamics and all of this, and he was basically a contemporary of Cotton Mathers, when Newton kind of unlocks this understanding of motion and gravity and thermodynamics,

it kind of charmed the scientific establishment into believing that everything could be precisely measured. Everything could be described mathematically and so we talk about medical science Fauci is fond of saying, you know He he invokes this kind of papal infallibility at one point. He actually said I am science Is questioning science. The problem with medicine, with so-called medical science is, the human body, sickness and disease,

how it affects individuals, how it affects masses of people, you have an infectious agent, but then you have the environment in which the ecosystem in which the infectious agent is operating. These are extremely complex things and at any given time there are many factors that we just don't know. The new BMO VI Porter MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks. MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks, more points, more flights, more of all the things you want in a travel rewards card and then some. Get your ticket to more with the new BMO VI Porter MasterCard and get up to $2,400 in

value in your first 13 months. Terms conditions apply. Visit bmo.com slash viporter to learn more. We don't know. Let me put a finer point on what you're saying. Because I've thought a lot about this. Just before Einstein unleashed his version of the physical universe, the prevailing wisdom in physics was, it's just a matter of more decimal points. Like how far out we take the decimal points.

That's all we can do now is take it further out to further accuracy. He blew open the whole thing, obviously, with general relativity and whatnot. But biological systems, this is something I have a deep intuition about, having been trained very well in biology as an undergraduate, are strictly speaking, probabilistic, strictly.

It's like I've said on this show many times, like trying to predict the behavior of clouds. It's not digital, it's probabilistic. And our brains do a horrible job with probabilities. We don't like probabilities. And in medicine, you have to learn to think always in terms of probabilities. And we have sort of lost that

and everything's become very digital and sort of, you know, checking boxes and clinical pathways and things. This is not good for the human experience. Sage, I wonder if you have any questions for John. I have so many questions. Okay, go ahead. John, thank you so much for your hard work

and your research, it's amazing. Just the title of your book, Vaccines, Mythology, Ideology and Reality. The reality is all that I really care about. You have to have the understanding of the past, certainly, but where we are today, trust, trust is gone. And so for the average citizen, the non-doctors and scientists, et cetera,

I want that back. I don't know if it's too far gone, you know? But I was one of those people, mothers, that just believed anything the doctor said. And so when they said, hey, bring your kids in and give them this list of shots, I said, okay, great. When they were young teenagers, and you go to the pediatrician's office and they say,

give them this HPV vaccine and just do it. I said, okay. I trusted everything. And then COVID hit. And all I wanted was the answer to a couple of questions, which you say out loud and then God forbid you're done, you're over. It was a simple Google search for me.

And I guess it depends on where you're getting information, but you tell me if I'm wrong. Is it what, six to nine years on average that the FDA used to take? Oh yeah, at least, to approve a vaccine. To approve a vaccine. Sure. And this was shoved down our throats in what, six months? Whatever that was?

However quickly it was. And to be fair to that process, it was called Warp Speed. I understand there was an emergency. Yes. And it should have been articulated by the politicians And in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect,

in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, in that respect, You don't have it. Yes. And never did. And that's where things really went off the rails for me. That's where it went off the rails. And then again, I'm just listening and trying to do my homework as a mother when it's like,

okay, I have these three teenage kids. They're all in high school. All they want to do is play sports. All they want to do is go to their friend's house. Of course. Some parents were like, Mike, your kid's not coming over. If they're not vaccinated, certainly the school's certainly working for Disney-owned ESPN. And we were forced to get that in order to keep our jobs.

That's the decision I had to make, along with millions of others. And I trusted until, until, and I ended up, I mean, I ended up questioning and then getting in trouble for it, ended up complying. How dare you. But I know, I know. But when I saw the financial ties to the vaccines,

to COVID as a whole, when if you go to a hospital in Orlando and your terminal cancer patient, and it ends up taking your life, or a car accident with head trauma, but you had COVID at that time, what did they do? They put on your death certificate from COVID, not from whatever the actual health illness was

or emergency that it was. And then each hospital is getting $30,000, $40,000 per patient that is designated to have died from COVID. Once the money came, came involved in it directly, that's when I went, wait a minute, this just doesn't smell right. That's all it was. So now I'm one of millions who has lost trust. And certainly the FDA, ouchie, all those people.

Yes, but also everyday doctors, your family doctors, because now I'm like, wait, what is their actual goal? If everybody was making money off of me getting those shots, what do I do now? Because I want to trust, I want to believe, and I know there are obviously certain vaccines that will prevent terrible things, terrible illnesses and potential death.

What is that line? So what do you tell people if I'm going to my primary care physician to say, okay, so this one I should trust because I didn't trust you last time you told me to take it and look. Yep, we need to rebuild it, but go ahead, John. Well, I mean, I would say that enormous trust,

I mean, I think the medical profession in the United States and also in Western Europe, certainly in Australia as well, I think they completely threw away the trust that one might have said that they had built up over a period of decades. It was all just thrown away. I mean, one of the most remarkable things about the COVID-19 vaccine rollout,

and we document this in the book, there was Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers. There was this great tennis champion, Djokovic. Jokovic. Yep, you know this well. And I mean, these two splendid athletes who were peak physical condition, they were at absolutely no risk of severe illness

from COVID-19. Djokovic had actually already had COVID-19. PCR confirmed and covered. And yet the Australian authorities, they issued the visa for him to play in the 2022 Australian Open. But then when he arrived in Australia, in Sydney, and to me there's a strong element of sadism in this,

they locked him up anyway. They said, well, we issued the visa, but while you were over the Pacific, we've changed our mind. So we're putting you in quarantine and you can't play. And you just think, but we've already established in the CDC, Rochelle Walensky has already admitted, the vaccine doesn't prevent infection and transmission. So what is the rationale? Exactly.

What is the rationale for locking these guys up and banning them from play. And I mean, Aaron Rodgers gave a talk with Joe Rogan in which he described just medieval treatment at the hands of his football club. But Doug, can't we call this what it is? It's a deep, profound, totalitarian instinct. It is. I'd never seen it in my lifetime and I don't understand why somebody would have that.

I have even less understanding why people would comply with it. I hope they learned their lesson, I certainly did. But I don't understand where that came from, how that would be popular, how so many people in positions where they could exert themselves. We have to correct that.

So that can't happen again. But I don't know if it's even, well, for correcting, yes, going forward. Certainly there's not been enough ownership in my mind and accountability from those people. Apologies, I would like some apologies. I had known Aaron Rodgers for years and years, obviously, just with my career in sports. And then when he got canceled,

was about a month after I did, and we communicated a lot about this. And he was, he talked in detail privately, certainly not publicly at that time, about the number of other superstar athletes in the National Football League who were texting him, texting him saying, yeah, man, I'm with you. Yes, spot on.

Of course. Silence publicly and going along with things publicly. So even the guys who are the multi-multi-millionaires with really no concerns of the average American were afraid to say it. So now that the past is the past, Aaron was right, a lot of us were right, just to question and beyond. Now the question is, what do we do with it

just to establish that trust again? Yeah. As an American, as a consumer, as a mother, what would you suggest that we do? One of the things I would suggest is you defend people's liberty to speak and dialogue. That's where it all went wrong. If you silence anybody in any discourse

about anything of a particularly medical, scientific nature, run. That's it, we've downed trouble. That's what my lawsuit was about at Disney for the first amendment to be punished. God bless you. About one thing when you have an opinion, but others who are, you know,

fall in line with whatever the narrative is at Disney or anywhere else, then you're okay. So that's what it was about. And absolutely we have to, that's what's been missing. I just don't know if we get that trust back. I saw RFK the other day and I forgot the exact numbers you can tell me about just the autism. And how that has just skyrocketed through the roof.

It's devastating to millions and millions of people. So the trust is gone, they're not deserving of it. But I don't know what to do. Let's remind ourselves, we're just speaking of not dialog. And John, I'll let you answer that in a second. But we've moved through a period where you were, A, not allowed to bring that up because it might, imply something about something with vaccines,

or you were being judgmental of non-neuro-normative people. How dare you? You were being canceled on two fronts to bring up a scientific clinical question. To ask a question. John, what do you say? Well, there's something that I think might shed some light. And we take pains in our book to to elucidate this.

The the vaccine idea, the vaccine concept, it it came about in the 18th century when the living conditions of people in cities like Boston or London or Hamburg, Germany or Paris, conditions were, I think it's safe to say they're unrecognizable to what they are today. Things that we just take for granted, for example, proper sewers, water filtration. People all the way up until the latter half of the 19th century, well really almost to the 20th century, rivers, the sources of water for major cities were completely contaminated with raw sewage.

I mean, I give that as just a graphic example. And we have a chapter in the book called the great stink about London before the London sewer was built. So things like cholera, typhoid fever, the state of nutrition, particularly of the urban poor in the 18th and 19th century, people were very badly undernourished. They didn't, just to give you an example as a kind of proxy, scurvy and rickets, they

still had, we think of scurvy as guys on a ship in the middle of the Pacific. There were actually scurvy incidents and even outbreaks all the way up until the early 20th century. You know, Charles Dickens is kind of this poetic writer of, you know, the impoverished urban poor in London, you know, Tiny Tim is deformed because of rickets of vitamin D, like gross vitamin D deficiency. So what we've found is that the human body is actually quite robust if it's well nourished, if you can sleep in quarters that are fairly warm in the winter. I mean, you look at these tenement buildings in London and New York City,

people were cold in the wintertime. There weren't promptly heated quarters, there wasn't clean water, the quality of food was poor. So once living standards start to really make great strides in the early 20th century, and there's vital statistics that are published by the United States government, you see a dramatic plummeting of infectious disease mortality. So by the time you get to 1946, When you get to 1946, two years before pediatric societies started advocating that all children in the US get the diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccine,

two years before the era of mass vaccination, you've already seen 95 plus percent decrease of mortality from common childhood diseases. So, but I think it's important to understand that this mesmerizing idea of vaccination, it came about in the 18th and early 19th century when conditions were completely different. What we've seen happen is this dramatic reduction of infectious disease mortality

that we saw from the elevation of living standards. What our medical profession has done is it has attributed all of that, not to the general elevation of living standards, nutrition, sanitation, hygiene, improved housing, but to vaccines. Vaccines get the credit. Well, to be fair, we always used to say,

sanitation and vaccines were the two big breakthroughs. And now I'm not sure which way the vaccines are really a part of that. But John, I've got to wrap this up. I appreciate you coming in. I want people to read the book. Let me get it out here. You see it's encyclopedic in its scope. It's about the mythology and ideology

and reality of vaccines is right there in the title. The last thing I would say is there's a whole other psychology that gets into infectious diseases back to ideology where people that are infected are dirty or if they have an infection The last thing I would say is there's a whole other psychology that gets into infectious diseases back to ideology where people that are infected are dirty or if they have an infectious disease, oh my God, or they're possessed or here we go into sort of

quasi religious thinking. You can get very weird and puritanical quickly and we had evidence of that during COVID and people were, if you got COVID you were tainted somehow. It's incredible. People are still primitive. John, last words and we're gonna wrap it up. Yeah, remember, our kind of archetypal totalitarian state

was what the Nazi regime erected in Poland. And the original Nazi operations that were waged in like the Krakow ghetto, the initial rationale was there's a typhus outbreak in the ghetto. We're going to have to seal off the ghetto from the outer world. And then in the actual camps, this talk of using cyclone B as a delousing agent. So the totalitarian mind does have this sort of fascination with hygiene and there's the clean and then there's the unclean, the reprobate.

And what's your next book? I want your next book to be about the totalitarian mind. It's time, that would be a great book. Please write that because it's so mysterious to me. But John, appreciate it very much. John Sears, Leak, yes? Oh, hang on a second. It's Caleb S. come on here,

but I'm going to say goodbye to John here. John, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. You got it. And Caleb, what are you telling me to do here? I'm a little unclear. It was the other topic that we had for Sage about the attack that was in Cincinnati

that had the media barely covered it because it didn't fit with the narrative that they wanted. She had commented on it on X earlier. Oh, good. Maybe we ought to save that for when I'm on your podcast. That's a deep one. It's a That's a, that's a deep one. It's a deep one. And I feel like, yeah, I, I listen, it triggers in again, in me, that feeling of, I don't

know what I'm looking at. It's a little piece of video on X. I don't want to conclude anything. I don't like, I don't like what it looks like, but until I know the facts, I don't want to be part of the mob. I think we have to. I agree. I'll say this, I think that we can all agree on this,

regardless of what the deep, deep facts are, is when someone is being beaten for whatever reason, and you have a hundred people on a street recording with their cameras and not calling 911 and not asking for help, that's a problem no matter the circumstances. It's become a thing. Ask for help, protect your fellow human being

regardless of what led up to it. They sat literally almost 100 people and videoed someone getting two people, a couple getting viciously beaten. That is a deep issue as to why and where have we gone in our society where we record first and go live on Instagram instead of getting these people help

and maybe stopping kicking them. That just is narcissism. Hey, I exist, everybody, I exist. And then the virtue, I'm better too, I'm better than you. Oh man, watch it. Be careful, everybody. I look forward to doing your show, so look for that. I'm so grateful you came here.

It was so fun to work with you and Dave this morning. And I'll give you last thoughts to tell people where to find you and where you want them to go. YouTube, Sage Deal Show. I absolutely have loved being able to have the conversations with all different kinds of people, people you even disagree with.

What a concept, a conversation. So the YouTube show, please subscribe and like. I'm learning the importance of saying that. That really matters. Also on Instagram, Twitter, ex-Patreon, where I'm trying to post some behind the scenes stuff. It's just been a blessing to have the freedom to say what you want and have conversations

instead of network television. Forever grateful for that 30 year career there, and now next, so thank you. Good for you, and Susan, you've always said that, about how nice it is that we have this sort of free environment. Somebody, your daddy on Rumble wants another hour. Well, they're going to go to the Sage Seals show.

Your daddy as in your daddy. Yo daddy or my daddy, he's probably watching. Who says your daddy? No, this is the guy that's on our Rumble rants. He's there frequently. I love it. Yo or daddy. Thank your daddy.

It's yo or your daddy. Thank you daddy. And I will be on the Sage Seals show. That's what I'm going to be. And that's where you can find another hour of us. You'll have another hour tomorrow. Is it live? It's not live.

So I will post when it will be on there. Yes. Okay, good. Sage, appreciate you being here. Thank you. And we will see. Let's look up the, let's get the schedule up for next week. I think Kennedy's in here next week.

Oh, cool. Let's see what he'll put it up there a second. She's been on God Feel a lot. She's getting funnier and funnier. Dr. Rose, hypnotist. Oh, cool. Let's see what he'll put it up there a second. She's been on GodFiddler a lot. She's getting funnier and funnier. Justin Rose, hypnotist, that's interesting. Lizzo Potter, twice. Salty Cracker for my birthday, that'll be fun. And I've got-

Your birthday's in September 4th? Yeah. Jeez. Oh my gosh. Beyonce's birthday. Yeah, but that's in August. What's that? I mean, in September.

What? What'd you say? What's the matter, Susan? You said, Salty Cracker on your birthday. Your birthday's- In September. Yes, we're looking at the same thing. You're looking at September?

We're not even in August yet. I'm reading what's up there. People keep asking for Salty, and they're just telegraphing that Salty's coming. God, you scared me. Happy your birthday. I'm getting married on September 5th. Oh, wow, great, congratulations. So I might not be I'm getting married on September 5th. Oh wow, congratulations.

So I might not be tuning in that day on your birthday, but I'll text you. Don't do it. Don't you dare. Please don't do it. It's awesome. So what was I just thinking about? Susie, you distracted me so badly by saying. Schedule.

Salty cracker on your birthday. Yeah, it was something about next week and I can't remember now. I got you off track too, I'm sorry. No, no, no. I'm really good at that. We're not doing anything next week other than the't remember now. I got you off track too. I'm sorry. No, no, no. I'm really good at that. We're not doing anything next week other than the show. It's all from here, yes.

And I guess that's it. So, all right. So thank you very much for being here. And thank you all for being here. Thank you. So fun. And we will see you next time. Two o'clock Pacific time.

Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be updated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me, call 911.

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