Ask Dr. Drew - Senator Rand Paul & Dr. Mary Talley Bowden on Public Health Deception & Medical Freedom – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 299

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Senator Rand Paul is one of 4 physicians serving in the US Senate and has been a leading fighter for medical freedom and transparency in public health. Dr. Mary Talley Bowden is a respiratory health expert who says she was targeted by a state medical board after using alternative treatments for COVID-19 and speaking against vaccine mandates – leading to a suspension of her hospital privileges and retaliation by her employer and the Medical Board. Follow Sen. Rand Paul at https://x.com/RandPaul and read his new book “Deception: The Great Covid Cover-Up” in stores now. Follow Dr. Mary Talley Bowden at https://x.com/mdbreathe and visit https://mdbreathe.com for more. Dr. Rand Paul is a U.S. Senator of Kentucky. He graduated from Duke Medical School in 1988, completed a general surgery internship at Georgia Baptist Medical Center in Atlanta, Ga., and completed his residency in ophthalmology at Duke University Medical Center. Dr. Paul is a father of three and has been married for 31 years to Kelley Ashby Paul of Russellville, Ky. Dr. Mary Talley Bowden completed her residency at Stanford University and is board-certified in both Otolaryngology and Sleep Medicine. She specializes in sinus, sleep, and allergy disorders and treats both children and adults. In 2021, after speaking publicly in favor of alternative treatments for COVID-19 and against vaccine mandates – tweeting “vaccine mandates are wrong” – Dr. Bowden was quickly punished with a suspension by Houston Methodist and now faces a Medical Board complaint hearing in April 2024. 「 SPONSORED BY 」 Find out more about the companies that make this show possible and get special discounts on amazing products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get an extra discount with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew • COZY EARTH - Trying to think of the right present for someone special? Susan and Drew love Cozy Earth's sheets & clothing made with super-soft viscose from bamboo! Use code DREW to save up to 40% at https://drdrew.com/cozy • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 The CDC states that COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and reduce your risk of severe illness. You should always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health.  「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician with over 35 years of national radio, NYT bestselling books, and countless TV shows bearing his name. He's known for Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Teen Mom OG (MTV), Dr. Drew After Dark (YMH), The Masked Singer (FOX), multiple hit podcasts, and the iconic Loveline radio show. Dr. Drew Pinsky received his undergraduate degree from Amherst College and his M.D. from the University of Southern California, School of Medicine. Read more at https://drdrew.com/about Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thank you for joining us at a special time today. We will be welcoming Senator Rand Paul in just a moment after Senator Paul, Dr. Paul, as I prefer to call him, will be speaking with Dr. Mary Talley Bowden. She is a Stanford trained otolaryngologist who dared to say vaccine mandates are wrong. As a result, she was punished by her Houston Methodist Hospital. The medical board got involved with this. And I think we'll let her speak for herself as a quality physician. Of course, Rand Paul is a U.S. senator from Kentucky.

He graduated from Duke Medical School in 1988, then did a general surgery internship and went on to ophthalmology where he practiced as an ophthalmologist for a while. And then I believe it was 2011 was elected to the Senate. He obviously figured large into many of the hearings, particularly in regard to Dr. Fauci. He has a new book that I'm pouring through very quickly. We'll tell you more about it. I suggest it very strongly. The facts are there. He presents mounds of evidence about what happened during that debacle we call the COVID epidemic. We'll be right back with Senator Ron Paul after this.

Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f**k's sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things

about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Ladies and gentlemen, it is the holiday season and our friends at GenuCell Skincare want to give you the gift of younger looking skin with their best sale of the year. For the first time ever, get over 60% off our favorite skincare bundles at GenuCell.com slash Drew. GenuCell has so many products that Susan and I love. GenuCell's XV Moisturizer. It locks in moisture, making dry spots a thing of the past.

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Paul's book is called Deception, The Great COVID Cover-Up. And I think I said Ron Paul at the intro. I apologize for that. I know that as the senior doctor, Dr. Paul. You're not the first. You're not the first one to make that mistake. So I appreciate you being here. I want to set this up in one specific way because I know something that the public doesn't know,

which is we were in medical school around the same time I graduated in 84. And whenever people have brought your name up over the years, I said, the first thing you have to know is, first of all, you went to Duke, which was the top of the heap at the time. Secondly, when you got an ophthalmology residency in the 80s and early 90s, they only took one or two students from every class and only the very brightest. So I know Rand Paul to be exceptionally bright. And I saw plenty of evidence of that during the hearings during the COVID mess.

And now the book, and I thank you for the book. There's mounds of evidence if people want to dig through what happened. I've been trying to get through it as quickly as I possibly can. But I have a million questions for you, and we will keep it just to 20 minutes, I promise. My first question is, there were many things exposed by COVID. I'm sure you felt the same way as I did, and particularly about our profession. And the first thing I noticed is there seemed to be something wrong with our public health systems. I remember a while ago thinking, God, a lot of people with MPH after their name, why all this interest in public health systems. I remember a while ago thinking, God, a lot of people with

MPH after their name, why all this interest in public health? And that's concerning me. There's a lot of hammers around looking for a nail. And then I looked during COVID itself, a lot of the people in public health positions of authority were either pediatricians or non-physicians making decisions about adult medicine. Do we have a fundamental problem with our public health system? You know, I think the problem as I see it is this idea that medicine can be ruled by consensus. And this has been going on for a while. It's this idea of groupthink that anyone who's outside the group or anyone who thinks other than what the consensus is should somehow be banished.

But worse than that, have their license taken away, have their board certification taken away. It's an alarming sort of, I think, impulse to authoritarianism coming from physicians. You know, some of the physicians have put it this way. They're advocating for a policy on vaccines that is the law in most of Europe, and they're being chastised and told they might have their license taken away in California for advocating what is the law in about 10 countries in Europe who actually do not recommend the COVID vaccine for younger people. And so I guess that's what alarms me is how uniform it's become. But most of the groups, as you know, most of the medical groups are dominated by university physicians who are also very, very far to the left. But really, it used to be people on the left believe in freedom of speech. They used to be advocates of the First Amendment. And it is really sad, the policing of speech that's come out of this.

Especially in science when the discourse, the debate is the nature of science. I've been saying for a while now, the most significant historical example of a misinformation spreading professional was Galileo. And do we really want to be like the Spanish Inquisition?

You really think that the current Galileo should have their licenses revoked, that we shouldn't listen to them? I mean, this is insane. Yeah, and it's interesting in that it seems to be only going in one direction. So one of the controversies is over whether or not the virus came from animals naturally or from a lab and was manmade. Well, most of the people who think it came from the lab have never once disparaged those who says it comes from animals, never once called them conspiracy theorists or said it's impossible.

Even though I think the preponderance of evidence, you know, is that it came from the lab. If you told me you think it comes from animals, I would say there there's some chance, and you have the right to present your facts and your opinions, but I wouldn't censor you. I wouldn't be part of the government that called up Facebook and says, take down any information from Rand Paul where he says that it came from the lab. That kind of censorship is very, very worrisome to the survival, really, of a free country. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Back to the vaccine. By the way, there's another claim that they were, in addition to silencing people, they were calling you racist if you said it came from a Chinese lab. But if you said, ooh, gross, they eat animals in a wet market, those Chinese people, that's not racist. That's where the virus came from. So it's very, very odd.

But back to the vaccine, I got a bunch of questions. I'd love to hear your thoughts about that too. I'm an internist, so I deal with a lot of elderly patients. During Alpha and Delta, I was happy to have the vaccine in spite of some real risks. The risk reward was clearly on the side of giving the vaccine back then. We've given several boosters, though some of that data, I don't know if you saw, it came out of Austria yesterday, shows that the fourth booster adds nothing and maybe makes things a little worse after three months. So maybe we shouldn't be continuing to boost. But those are nuanced points. The clear point that most of the world has adopted is that this is now, with 99% of the people exposed or vaccinated, in, say, a 28-year-old

male, this is a cold. And we're vaccinating against a cold at the risk of 1 in 500, 1 in 5,000, I don't care what number you want to put in there, of myocarditis, of which the latest study shows half of that is still present at a year. Why the push? Why can't they change direction? It amazes me that there's the inability to discern that there was a vast age difference in risk here, and that risks and benefits should be based on your risk of the disease versus the risks and benefits of the vaccine and also the period of time. So in 2021, when the vaccine came out, my conclusion was that people over a certain age, probably over 65, that the risks of the disease were greater than the risks of the vaccine. Even then though,

I think that for teenagers, the risks of the vaccine exceeded the risk of the vaccine. Even then, though, I think that for teenagers, the risks of the vaccine exceeded the risk of the disease. But now there are some important questions because now we're two years hence, and you're right, 99% of us have either natural immunity or vaccine immunity or both. And so there's a real question. And I keep asking the CDC this question. Let's say I'm 75 years old and I've had two vaccines and I've had COVID twice. What are my risks? We know it doesn't stop transmission, but what are my risks now if I do nothing of going to the hospital and dying from COVID? So we know COVID has mutated to become less deadly and we know our immunity has gone upwards. Our immunity has gotten greater. The

deadliness has gone down, But the CDC has the statistics. Just tell me the truth. I want to make an honest decision. I want to tell my parents or somebody else to make an honest decision. But they won't give us the facts. It's gotten so bad. Why? What is that?

What is that? That's the oddest thing in the world to me. Is it complete dishonesty? Or have they become salesmen for big pharma? With the children, with recommending a booster for your six-month-old or your 10-year-old, it is malpractice. It is without question malpractice. There is no evidence of a benefit. In fact, they couldn't. And I asked Fauci this question. I said, is there a reduction in transmission? No. Is there a reduction in death or hospitalization for teenagers? He says, we don't have enough information.

He says, no, I said, absolutely, you have the information. It's zero, and you can't get much below zero. And they could not prove efficacy for children. So what they did is they said, well, your kid will make antibodies. And so my response to him was, you can give your kid 1,000 vaccines. Vaccines induce, a foreign protein will induce immune response. Doesn't mean you need one. You know, you can give them a cold vaccine every year,

and it doesn't mean they need a cold vaccine. You need to know, is it deadly? Am I going to get sick? What are my risks? And they need to be compared. But I just came from the Senate floor minutes ago arguing to get rid of the booster, the third vaccine for teenagers that are arpegist,

and the Democrats came down there and argued disingenuously, but argued that the mandate needs to remain in place to protect these kids. What? I hope, listen, if I'm the parent of a child who develops myocarditis, I'm going to sue the hell out of these people.

That's what I'm going to do if that happens to one of my kids. And because- It may be the only way we finally stop this. I think that's right. And, or a university or a high school

or whatever it is. That to me has been the fundamental failure all the way through is no risk reward consideration. What is the risk reward of lockdown? We don't care. Lock it down.

The interesting thing is we finally did get rid of the mandate on the military. So a lot of our young soldiers, a lot of them are male, a lot of them are 18 to 25. They're at higher risk for myocarditis than they are from the disease. We finally got rid of that mandate, and yet they're still mandating on the pages. The pages are 15, 16, 17 years old. And here's the other thing is, even the CDC has admitted that you shouldn't be vaccinated if you just had the disease because you've got a significant immune response happening and kids get an enormous immune response. A vaccination on top of that is an increased risk for the myocarditis

from this. And yet, do you think anybody, do you think at Walgreens they're asking you, did you have COVID recently before they give you the jab? Do you think the Senate page program is cautioning you not to get vaccinated if you just had COVID two weeks ago? No, they're not practicing good science. They're practicing herd science like your cattle. Everybody must get branded, but it has nothing to do with you individually, has nothing to do with your health. It has more to do with your submission, submission to the man, submission to the state.

I don't think a rancher who had an investment financially in its herd would treat its herd like this. They would be too dangerous. That's the reality. So incredible. So again, because we have limited time, I'm going to jump a little bit from topic to topic. One of the things that, and by the way, I cannot recommend the book strongly enough. It's all there. And the fact that the public or the journalists so-called don't report more on what's in your book, Deception, is just breathtaking to me. But okay, here we are. I sit and I think a lot about these things like, why can't we have risk-reward analysis? Where did risk-reward diathesis go? What's wrong with our profession? But one of the things that recently struck me

was the fact that the vaccine is directed against the most pathogenic component of the virus. In other words, we are turning our bodies into spike protein factories with the mRNA vaccine, which I understand that creates the antibody response to the spike protein. But an awful lot of spike protein is being produced. We know now that the spike protein. But an awful lot of spike protein is being produced. We know now that the spike protein is the primary pathogenic mechanism or source of the pathogenesis of some of the more serious problems of COVID.

It makes me believe or wonder, were they already ready for this virus in some way? Did they already have the blueprint of a spike protein vaccine because there was a probability of something like this getting away from somewhere that was doing some kind of gain of function research? So my first question, is that a reasonable theory? My second theory is, why don't they switch it now to the nucleocapsid? Why don't they move on to something else?

Why staying with the spike protein? Well, this also shows why you have a little broader spectrum immunity if you've actually had the illness. And people don't get it by choice. We wish nobody had it. But when you get it and the cell ruptures and the nucleocapsid antigens are exposed, then you get immunity to a broad array of things that are not just the S-protein. You also get immunity to some other antigens on the surface other than the S-protein. So you get a wider range. That's probably why you're less likely to get it and less likely to get sick if you have natural immunity. Now, did they know in advance? We talk about this in the book. There was a deal between Moderna and the U.S. government and Chinese in December of 2019. I don't think it's as nefarious as some have reported.

I think they were working on an S-protein kind of mRNA virus vaccine. Yeah. And they wanted to have something that would be a pan-coronavirus. So it would be all the different strains and it would work. Ah. And I also think, and so they were ready. They were prepared. They were very quick because the technology, once you get the sequence, you can do an mRNA vaccine very quickly once you have the sequence.

But here's the intriguing thing, and the thing that we report extensively on in the book, is that early in 2019, a general, Zoe Yousson, began developing a vaccine. And the vaccine they were developing was a live attenuated vaccine. So you have to have the virus. The virus of coronaviruses don't infect humans very well. The first SARS-1 in 2003, 2004, it infected animals really well and it got into humans, but it wasn't very contagious. So what they did is they inserted the cleavage site, the furin cleavage site into the genetic code. They did that in the lab to try to create a virus that was more infectious to humans to try to create a live attenuated vaccine. The problem with live attenuated

vaccines is you're dealing then with a live virus in the, you're not dealing just with a protein or a part of a killed virus or whatever you're dealing with, the live vaccine and then trying to attenuate it. And in the history of things that have escaped from the lab, live vaccines have been the ones that have escaped from the labs previously. We think that's what happens. Also, we know that this General Zoe Youssen has a vaccine by February of 2020. The only way you get a live attenuated vaccine in February of 2020

is you had to start at least in November of 2019. So they had to have known the virus sequence. They had to have had the virus for a longer period of time. But then what's extraordinary is this general, you'd think he would be a hero for developing the vaccine. Two months later, he dies falling from a tall building in Beijing. Whether he was pushed or jumped is an open question, but it's a mysterious death from a general who discovered or created this vaccine in an extraordinary short period of time. So there's so many things that don't add up. And we talk about the great COVID cover-up in the book. It began in China, and we kind of expect the totalitarian

government of China not to be honest. We kind of just expect that that coexists with totalitarianism. But I didn't expect to find so much cover up in our own government across eight departments of government funding that had been going on a decade and no one will own up to it. And to this day, NIH has not produced documents to me. HHS has not produced documents. We have named documents that are completely whited out, and they will not give us the documents, even though they're all unclassified. They won't give these documents to me. In addition to our profession, I wonder what happened to journalists. I mean, journalists should be crawling all over this, trying to figure this out. You talk about worse than Watergate, my God. But as you sit and sort of think about this, and I'm guessing at night you wake up and this is ruminating in your mind,

can you concoct a story where it's justified for everybody to be silent? Is there something so important that it remained, it's not classified per se, but secret that it would justify all this coverup? Or is there something else that you imagine going on? I'll tell you what encourages me. Yes, the mainstream media completely ignored it. But I am encouraged by having so many other sources. So in 2020, I didn't think twice about it. 22 scientists signed a letter in Lancet and said it came from animals and you're crazy if you don't believe them. And I was like, I read that very briefly and didn't look into it. It wasn't until a year later that Nicholson Wade,

who's a science writer, used to write for the New York Times. No one would accept his article. He wrote a 50-page article really going on to serial passage. And that's what lit me up. And I've talked to him on the phone and said, you are what inspired me to go into this and look and look and look for more information and to discover this. But I would say that there are enough voices, your voice, other voices that aren't just in the middle of the mainstream media anymore, but they're out there. The internet's an amazing thing, but it's why we have to keep the government out of the internet. We can't have a government that meets with Dr. Drew at the end of this interview and decides what you're allowed to publish and what you're not. And maybe they don't tell you they're not, but they're armed agents of the government sitting in your office.

Do you think that doesn't have a chilling effect? That's what they were doing on Twitter and Facebook is once a week meeting with them and suggesting very strongly that they take down information that was all constitutionally protected speech. Oh, yeah, listen, it's not, you know, we get dinged from Facebook and YouTube all the time for spurious, ridiculous things. But I'm also noticed that I was responding to, we have a Chinese virologist that worked on the coronavirus named Li Mengyuan that I interviewed once in a while. And I noticed she was getting attacked. And I said, I just sort of went on Twitter and said, anybody think this is a Chinese bot attack here? Because it was very nonsensical, sort of a weird sort of attack. 25 minutes later,

there were videos of me on Twitter attacking me, edited very carefully to make it seem like I had a certain kind of opinion that I did not. And I thought, wow, it's not just our government. The Chinese government is in here doing stuff too. Are people aware of that? I think they are more and more, but people are just smarter than everybody gets some credit for. And I think particularly the left, the elitism is astounding, but they basically think that you're stupid. They think you shouldn't be able to choose what news, they shouldn't be able to choose what health care. But here's the thing about it. Like with regard to the vaccine,

Anthony Fauci and the New York Times will still lament, nobody got vaccinated and that's why all these people died. 97% of people over 65 got vaccinated. They read the newspaper and they found their neighbors were dying and they were all older and they said, wow, I think I might want to get vaccinated. But they could have done a better job. The one thing Anthony Fauci and public health doctors should have done is not mandate things, but suggest things. There's a really strong correlation with obesity. And I told people I know that if they were significantly overweight

and they were 35 or 45 years old, they might want to consider in 2021, at least, getting vaccinated. And I knew people who did die who were very large. I was in the hospital rotating them and turning them on the ventilator and being trying to be helpful after I recovered from COVID. But none of that came out. Instead, they're telling us to wear some cut up t-shirt over our face. And that was malpractice because they don't work. Yeah. Oh yeah. That is the bizarre that those were all ideas pulled out of thin air you know the the idea that six feet made me we're six feet that's just a complete fabrication and then the nonsense about you know wearing your mask until you sit down for the interview and then taking it off or taking it off to eat i mean it's all just so bizarre it's it's positively bizarre

but my favorite was the plexiglass. The plexiglass that the virus will not be able to skirt the plexiglass and you'll be protected by plexiglass. That was about one of the dumbest things I ever heard. Yeah. Well, it's because people mistook, they don't understand an aerosolized virus. They think it was transmitted by spit or body fluid or something. And so they got that in their head and they couldn't get away from it. The surgeons wear masks. They wear masks. Yes. So your mouth bacteria don't fall into the surgical field. Not so an aerosolized virus doesn't head over to the anesthesiologist, which it will do if that's what's happening. All right. So I have literally seconds remaining with you. I appreciate

the time you've spent. I appreciate the book. I will just say one last quick thing from my perspective, which was Anthony Fauci was one of my heroes pretty much my whole career. I was very deep in the AIDS pandemic and he was a wonderful light in that pandemic and a great source and someone I expected to guide us through this thing. Is there something about the way government sees itself

or the way government does PR these days that is so anachronistic that it looks like some sort of misappropriation of power that they're still using playbooks from the 1980s when it worked? And by the way, it didn't really work then. We learned then suggestion worked better than mandates, but be that as it may. Has the world changed so much in terms of how information is delivered and people's behaviors are affected that they just haven't caught up with that and they're using an old playbook that now looks authoritarian?

Well, you know, it's interesting. They have all these pandemic sort of exercises. They have been planning. We spend gazillions of dollars on everything, planning what we're going to do when the pandemic comes. Happened all the way up through 2020. None of it include masks because the consensus, if there was one, the mask didn't work very well. But I think really what concerns me more, even than the mandates, is the idea that all those who funded gain-of-function research have clammed up and covered up. And this is where the cover-up comes in. And people think the cover-up is sort of a cabal of people running their fingers together. No, George Carlin had it best when he said that a conspiracy theory is not necessary where interests converge. They all have an

interest not to be associated with the Wuhan lab now and not to be associated with the money that went to it. But there are some questions that are extraordinary questions. How come the scientists involved with Dr. Xi didn't warn us that Xi and they had applied for a research grant in 2018 to create a virus that looks just like COVID-19? And when they saw COVID-19, why didn't they immediately inform us? But the possibility they may have, because this Dr. Barak from UNC, he meets in February of 2020 with Anthony Fauci. What does Anthony Fauci say under deposition? He's not sure if he can place this Dr. Barak and not sure if he ever met him. Wow.

Even though we have a video of him, we have a video of him introducing Dr. Barak and sitting in a conference listening to him for an hour and a half. He says he's never met him. We do know that Baric met privately with Anthony Fauci in February of 2020. Anthony Fauci under deposition, can't recall that. But if you were Ralph Baric, this big gain-of-function researcher at UNC, wouldn't you have wanted to tell Anthony Fauci, oh my goodness, I've seen the sequence and it looks like what they asked us to be part of a study in 2018 and they didn't get the money for it, but this looks exactly like what they were planning on doing. Wouldn't that be a suspicion that, wow, this thing may have come from the lab? That's the way a lot of people concluded, but Anthony Fauci concluded to commission people to write a journal article in in nature that said basically if you think this came from

a lab or you argue that that you are you were crazy and that there's no evidence for that and now if you interview anthony fauci what does he say he says well yeah i've always said it might have come from a lab i never wanted kids not to go to school you're just misremembering you know what i said um lie lie lie, lie, just nonstop. Well, tremendous harm was done with these excesses. And I really appreciate you being there, pushing back, asking the hard questions. And please pick up the pace.

Let's keep going. You have an army behind you ready to be of use, particularly if they read the book. So read the book, Deception, the great coverup. And you, the great COVID coverup, you'll find it at Amazon, usual places. And read it onward. And if we can be of any help to you, I hope you'll reach out. Thanks. Senator Rand Paul, thank you so much. All right, so- Rand. Senator Rand Paul. I know it sounds like, you know what? I hurt myself when I said that. It sounds like I'm

saying Ron. I am saying Rand in my own head, trust me. It just doesn't. Randy, his actual name is Randall and Randy. It's his wife that distilled it down to Rand. And everyone thinks it's a reference to Ayn Rand, which it is not apparently. But maybe it is. I should have asked him about that. But anyway, he did not disappoint. And do read the book. It's a lot, just tons of information, including specific sort of manuscripts. I wanted to, if I had an hour and a half with them, I wanted to go to some of these particular interviews that are actually word for word represented in the book. You'll get a lot out of that.

All right, Dr. Mary Talley-Boden is here next. She was targeted. She was mistreated by our peers. She can be at breatheMD.org, B-R-E-A-T-H-E-M-D. You can also follow her on X at MDBreathe, the opposite of that. Her substack is Dr. Bowden,

B-O-W-D-E-M. I want to give you a Rand Paul again too. X is Rand Paul, R-A-N-D Paul. Instagram is Dr. Rand Paul, Dr. Rand Paul, give you a Rand Paul again too. X is Rand Paul, R-A-N-D Paul. Instagram is drrandpaul, Dr. Rand Paul. And of course, in the book, Deception, a great COVID coverup. And we'll take a little break and be back with Dr. Bowden. If you're trying to figure out the right present for someone, you will not go wrong with gifting the most comfortable sheets, clothing, and accessories that your friends and family have ever felt. Of course, I'm talking about Cozy Earth.

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Be ready for anything. This medical emergency kit contains an assortment of life-saving medications, including ivermectin, Z-Pak. The medical emergency kit provides a guidebook to aid in the safe use of all these life-saving medications. From anthrax to tick bites to COVID-19, the Wellness Company's medical emergency kit is exactly what you need to have on hand to be prepared. Rest assured, knowing that you have emergency antibiotics, antivirals, and antiparasitics on hand to help you and your family stay safe from whatever life throws at you next. Go to drdrew.com slash TWC. That is D-R-D-R-E-W.com forward slash TWC to get 10% off today. Just click on that link. All right. So Caleb, I guess I was watching the numbers up to the right of my head, those numbers I can see. And I guess I kept Dr. Paul longer than I should have. I realized that you had two clocks on your screen

and I realized I got to hide one of the production behind the scenes stuff. I know exactly what was wrong. I got out exactly at 0-0-0 on the wrong clock. That was my fault. Don't worry, I yelled at him for you. He's a senator. If he wanted to stop talking, he would have stopped talking. He had good stuff to say.

He wanted to finish his sentence. But do apologize. He's got a very nice team. Please apologize. He has a lot to say, and I wanted to hear more. Yeah, I could talk to him for hours. So speaking of somebody I could speak to for hours, let's bring our next guest with Dr. Mary Talley Bowden.

She is an otolaryngologist. She's a Stanford-trained physician. And she has been taken to task by our peers. Let's put it that way, by the hospital administration, by medical boards. Dr. Bowden, thank you and welcome. Thanks for having me. So tell the story really briefly briefly if you don't mind. I think a lot of people are aware and watch the news reports on what happened to you, but give them

from your perspective the basic history. I started seeing COVID patients at Urinus and Throat Doctors. I have patients coming to me all the time with respiratory tract infections, they wanted to get tested. So we actually had a saliva test. It was non-invasive. We got the results back quickly. So my little clinic exploded with COVID because of that. And then I'd tell patients, go see your primary care doctor to get treated. They'd come back to me and say, well, my primary care doctor has shut their doors and won't see me. And that didn't sit well with me. So initially, I started using breathing treatments and, you know, antibiotic, steroid, supportive treatment. Monoclonal antibodies came around, and those were great. They turned people around very quickly, 24 hours, boom, they were great.

And initially, I could get all the monoclonal antibodies I wanted. Then the government started rationing them. Anyway, I, you know, I started turning to alternatives because monoclonal antibodies ran out. And then I started, when the vaccine came out, I started seeing all the breakthrough cases. I actually went to Methodist and said, are you seeing what I'm seeing? That was ignored. I was dismissed. And then I had all these patients coming to me very distraught over their mandate. And they were the first hospital in the country to mandate the shots four months before Biden did it. I think they were chosen to do that. I think it was purposeful. But anyway, I had a lot of patients coming to me very upset. And, you know, I basically started speaking out on Twitter. And on one particular day, I tweeted out 25 times, vaccine mandates are wrong. And I put a testimonial from

one of my patients with each tweet. Five days later, I received a alarming text message from a reporter at the Houston Chronicle, saying, can you please confirm that your privileges have been suspended at Houston Methodist? And I was blindsided. I had no idea what they were talking about. And then I go to my email and indeed I have been suspended. They didn't call me. And then I go to Twitter and they're tweeting about it. And then the story hit the news and it went viral. So, you know, I held a press conference the following week to try to get my side of the story out because it was just, I mean, it was worldwide and people are going crazy on me.

And then I ended up suing them for defamation and that's ongoing. They, in turn, they reported me to the medical board because I resigned when they did that. And I resigned while under investigation for spreading dangerous misinformation. That's how they put it. So, and that medical board is, that issue is still ongoing as well. And this is Texas Medical Board? Yes. Have they been aggressive throughout COVID?

I've had four complaints. One of them over, well, two of them over ivermectin prescriptions and two of them from hospitals. One of the ivermectin prescriptions that was eventually dismissed, but I did have to hire a lawyer and get it addressed. The other ivermectin prescription is still ongoing. And then the two hospital ones are still ongoing. None of these cases was involved patient safety. And, you know, as you know, the medical board usually goes after felons, drug abusers and sexual misconduct. This is purely political. There's no safety involved.

And I think if they were really concerned about safety, they would be moving these cases along. Instead, they're just dragging them out. I mean, it's been two years now. So it's unbelievable. So let's go back to the initial treatment paradigms you were using. Look at that. Ridiculous. Dangerous misinformation to talk about monoclonal antibodies.

One of the first things that struck me was that the public health was not advocating for the public health. I mean, they should have been out there educating, what are monoclonal antibodies? How do they work? How do you get them? When I went out very aggressively, I got monoclonal antibodies that turned my COVID around. And I just said, you need to be aware of this. And immediately, I had to push back. I got, oh, you're special. Only you can get it. No, everybody can get it. Oh, you can afford it. They're free. They're free. The government has already bought them.

And no one had any awareness of this. That to me was the very first and most exquisite failure of public health. Forget on the mandating side and on the excesses. Those are well-documented. But the failure on the side where they actually could have helped people survive this illness, that's where I was having a problem.

Agree, agree. And, you know, DeSantis was leading the way. I mean, he was setting up those monoclonal antibody stations and making them widely accessible. And it was very frustrating, especially, you know, initially I could just order them directly from the manufacturer and get as many doses as I wanted. And they'd be there the next day. And the government took over distribution and went all downhill. They started rationing the dosage and accessibility.

And that's when I turned to ivermectin. And I was actually worried about ivermectin because I was like, there's no way it's going to work as well as the monoclonal antibodies. And after I dug into it and made sure it was really safe, and then I started using it. And you know, now I've treated over 6000 COVID patients, and everybody that received early treatment is alive and well, which obviates the need for this experimental vaccine with no long term safety data. I mean, I have seen I looked over the last two years and my new patient appointments and 7% of my new patients have come to see me for chronic debilitating health problems following these shots.

It's unbelievable. I mean, you look at the swine flu vaccine that was pulled after 26 people died. It is truly unbelievable to me. Did they die or they just got Guillain-Barre? I think they just got Guillain-Barre. I don't think they died, did they? Maybe so, but it was minimal compared to what we're seeing now. And having shots on the vaccine schedule is just, I'm just floored by this. For a cold, as you were saying with Rand Paul, it's a cold. I mean, even if it were a little more severe, we have treatment.

I mean, I mean, I don't like Paxlovid, but hell, they can use Paxlovid if they want to. I mean, they've got treatment. We have no long term safety data. It's just alarming. And I really think we need more politicians to speak up. We need more people speaking out because, you know, you know, Rand Paul and everybody else, they're not taking any more of these shots and they're not giving them to their children. And if they're not willing to give them to themselves or to their children, they shouldn't be pushing them or allowing them on the market. And I really think they need to be pulled off the market. Well, it's not allowed in a lot of European, most of the countries in the world, right? They do not allow vaccination of young people

for the risk-reward problems that Dr. Paul and I were talking about. This 7% that you're seeing that has adverse vaccine reactions, is there a pattern to that? Yes. So, you know, I'm not seeing the myocarditis stroke, that sort of thing.

I see patients with POTS, probably the number one thing where blood pressure goes way up and way down. I see bad rashes. I've seen neuropathy. I've seen localized pain where there's no explanation. These patients get the million dollar workup.

They usually come to see me because no one else will listen to them. Nothing shows up on these tests. They get put on psych medicines, they get put on sleeping pills, they get put on anxiety medications. And, you know, unfortunately, I mean, I've been able to help people, but I would say the majority of these people, I'm not seeing cures, right? I mean, time, the teacher of time does help. I have things that I try, and I've been able to help people. But these seem to be chronic, long-lasting, really devastating problems for these patients. And they're not getting heard.

They're getting gaslit. The elephant's in the room room and nobody's acknowledging it. The one I keep seeing is the extreme exertional intolerance. And then when they try to push through it, they're trashed for the day. I'd say most of the vaccine stuff that gets to me is in that sort of zone. And when you test those people, they have persistent spike. They have VEGF up. They have these neuroinflammatory mediators that are markers for something going on. So it's not like nothing's going on. People say there's no test. There are tests and we've documented it. There's something going on. Right. But the average doctor doesn't test for the more sophisticated

testing that you and I are aware of. But the routine testing doesn't, things usually don't show up. So back to what I was talking to Senator Paul about, I'm going to ask you the same sorts of questions. Like, you know, you graduated from Stanford, the medical school, when? When was your? 2003, I finished residency. Okay. so your medical school was late 90s you know we were 80s paul uh dr paul and i and the the behavior and the it just what the just

what's happened to our profession is is so breathtaking and hard to understand. I'm guessing you think a lot about that. Fundamentally, just the breakdown and risk-reward analysis, the ability just to make blanket, I mean, what happened to do no harm? What happened to that? Where did that go? Well, in the long-term safety data i remember it was probably the next to last day of my residency and one of my attendings said to me just when you get out

there in the real world be careful about jumping on the bad bandwagon don't just start prescribing things that are fresh off the market we've seen it time and time again with countless medications that go on the market and that later get pulled. And, you know, here we are. I mean, what very providential about that sort of advice. But, you know, the lap and the other thing that's very egregious is what we're doing to pregnant women, giving them something so experimental. I mean, you know, when we're not even allowed to eat a turkey sandwich, and yet we're taking, we're giving them these shots. It's just, it's truly unbelievable. Have you, what are you laughing at the turkey sandwich? Salmonella. She's got a point.

No, we won't let, you know, it's, I just, in internal medicine, we have this thing called the MKSAP, which is this board review that's published every three or four years. And I've done it for decades. And I was working on it recently and I was doing the rheumatology board review. And I was shocked to find in the current MKSAP,

they recommend keeping our lupus patients on hydroxychloroquine during pregnancy because it is so inert. See, that's the only medication I can think of that they say that about. I can't think of a single other medicine that I would allow a patient to take. And I would not have allowed that one, frankly, had they not made it very explicit in the board review. And I thought, wow, interesting. and yet people have strong opinions about that chemical as well exactly exactly it's odd it's odd warning i've got this condition where i don't feel pain you're a superhero if this is how intense nova cane sounds oh wow imagine how it looks yeah big time nova k only in theaters march 14th do you have a theory

about what's happened was it just a you know mass formation was it a site you know just a weird panic a mob action that we're having trouble sort of re-equilibrating from it with things already too centralized were we all employees and that just stopped everything? What happened here? I mean, I think me not being employed was very helpful. I did not feel beholden to anybody. And I guess, you know, the doctors that are employed, and I think the figure is at least 80% of doctors now are employed. And, you know, that's what I say about my practice. I say I only work for my

patients. I don't, I'm not beholden to the government. I'm not beholden to an insurance company. I'm not beholden to the hospital. So I'm only working for my patients. But most doctors have a third party, you know, hanging over their head and whispering in their ear, whether they are aware of it or not. And that, I think, is part of the problem. I think doctors are fundamentally rule followers. I mean, we kind of have to be to get ahead. We have to make straight A's. We have to behave and do well in residency and do as we're told.

And I think that creates a culture of followers um and then you combine that with the fact that they're all employed uh and then the group think and then you know well it's a big mess right the media is on top of it and it's just a perfect storm but it's crazy but you know you say followers to me when i think about that, I think about failure of undergraduate education. Because the medical training is sort of military style. It's fall in lines, stand up straight, follow orders, learn how to do things over and over and over and over again. But undergraduate is where you're supposed to learn to think and to reason scientifically and to conceive of experiments and to be able to read statistics that i think may be a breakdown point as well i don't know undergraduate was for me just a lot of socializing

more than anything but yeah i i don't know i just want to be fair listen i i i i've noticed that some people say i i had a sort of a late what i would call lazy brain i i was not i was not skilled i was not tuned the way i got tuned up i got very tuned up uh completely by my undergraduate training like seriously ground to a pulp i needed needed that. Not everyone needs that. You may not have needed that. You may already have had a good, careful, analytic mind. My high school was the beat of my critical thinking. And then I sort of had fun in college. And then I got serious again in medical school. But I do think to become a doctor, you have to be a rule follower to some degree. Yeah.

I will tell you, I got in trouble back in 1984 going on the radio to dare to talk about young people about this thing called HTLV-3 at the time, you now know as HIV. That was considered outrageous. And I was stepping out of line and i you know the the heads of the department should be doing it even though no 23 year old would listen to somebody like that at the time especially it it really is um yeah it it and i i learned not to question too much some of the instincts of our younger colleagues if they have instincts that run contrary to the mainstream. But I don't even find those colleagues anymore. They're all just completely down for the cause. They don't seem to be wanting to think for themselves.

Yeah, I had a few hiccups along the way, because I spoke out, and they shut me down. But nothing major. But I remember, I was upset because they were waking patients up at 4am to draw their blood. But the results would, you know, we'd round at 6am, and the results would never be back. And so I talked to the director of the lab like why are you waking up the patients if they aren't even back and you know that sort of thing um but yeah i think for the most and you know it's a generational thing too uh it's we we have a sort of a weaker uh generation that's brainwashed in some ways well let's think about that because there's a lot of smart kids. It's not for lack of horsepower. We were sort of reared a lot on question authority. Even though we were compliant, we were sort of reared on question, question, question. And that sort of virtue has been washed out a bit, I think. It seems like maybe that isn't sort of top of mind.

I mean, like, you know, you were a troublemaker, you know, by today's standards. And just for advocating on behalf of patients, you know, not waking them up at four in the morning, pretty reasonable thing with sick people on your hands. Yeah, and I don't, it's, I'd be interested to go back and see what residency is like now i don't know if you have any insight into how they treat the residents now i think they're softer on them but i don't i don't know uh oh oh yeah it depends on what discipline of course as always but i mean certainly the residents have a lot more rights than we, we, our right was to, you know, be, do what we were told and not sleep. And, and, and that stuff has been, you know, people say that maybe that's not

such a good thing. I, I don't know how you learn to prioritize the patient in front of you more than when you're miserable and you, and you just, you can just focus and overcome everything that's happening to you personally to put the patient first. And again and again and again in the middle of the night, day after day, there's something very important about that experience. It causes you to just put patients first always. You can't think otherwise. Even to this day when I'm exhausted and I'm like, I need to, I just,

I've got other things to do. I actually have flashbacks to residency about, okay, you just have to get this done. Yeah, me too. No, I have,

uh, it's almost like for me, it was almost like a giant, uh, traumatic experience. I have vivid, real flashbacks of things and literally things that were said to me by certain consultants and things. I can remember it like they're standing in front of

me right now. And that was 35, 40 years ago. And some of that wisdom, that's how it got in and stayed in. And it's been serving me ever since. And I was a chief resident for a year and uh i did a lot of that um aggressive kind of uh you know pimping of of residents and things and um and i and when a patient one of them complained to me about it and i was like i was confused i thought no this is it's because i care i want you to going to, you have a prescription, Pat. I got to make sure you know what you're doing when you leave here. This is because I care about who you are when you walk out of this program. This isn't because I think you're a bad person.

This is, somebody did this for me and I benefited from it. I think that was the beginning of the end when they started complaining to the chief president. I don't think, I think now you get a lawsuit or something. something i really do i'd be afraid to be like the way i was and and it felt like i was you know rigorously training i mean the military still does it you know they still manage to create some craft some pretty good professionals by using that same old technique we just we just aren't allowed to use it. And nursing still does it, interestingly, I think, don't they? I don't know. I don't have the- To some extent. You don't get in there so much. All right. So going forward, we're kind of running

low on time here. Going forward, what are you concerned about now? Is your main concern the excessive mandates for the vaccine? Well, I think no one trusts the health care system anymore. The most common question I get asked time and time again is, who do you recommend? Because I don't trust anybody. And I think if we're going to restore trust, first, we got to pull these shots off the market. We need apologies. We need accountability. And we need to replace the people who have made such a mess of this with the people that got it right. But first step is, I mean, take these things off the market in any other time, in any other medication.

If this were an antibiotic and we were seeing all these things, it would have been pulled off the market a long time ago. And we're dealing with basically a cold right now. I mean, it's truly unbelievable. I don't know if you saw the, there was an Austrian study that came out, I think it was yesterday, that showed it was looking at the benefits of the second booster, the fourth shot. And it showed that essentially no benefit and that you could get a slight, no benefit on hospitalization and death. You could get a slight reduction in infectivity, like a 17% reduction for three months after the vaccine, but then a rebound of increased infectivity for the six months following that. So here we are. There is the evidence.

Behave accordingly. Did they talk about the risks? Did they talk about, you know? They didn't. No, it was still looking at benefit. But the risk we all are seeing, I mean, these patients that come to you with the vaccine reactions, are you making a VAERS report?

Are they making VAERS reports? Oh, yes. I have made all the VAERS reports. No one prior to me has made a VAERS report on these patients. It's awful. Has the FDA or anybody through VAERS followed up with you? Any of the more serious ones? One of them. That's awful. Has the FDA or anybody through VAERS followed up with you? Any of the more serious ones? One of them.

That's it. Oh, that's good. That's good. That's something. It's better than what they've been doing. They asked me for records. I mean, there wasn't like a heart-to-heart conversation. It was just send us your records.

Interesting. My understanding is, I don't know if you know joseph freiman but he had a conversation with the fda and what he discovered is what they do with the reports that they follow up on is they have one guy that decides if they think what they're looking at is a vaccine reaction so some guy just they got a guy that decides it's something that cannot be determined. It's just simply the data. It's not their position. There's a temporal relationship between the vaccine and the clinical syndrome incurred. It's not up to a person to decide.

It's up to the group to collate the data and look at it and then make that public, frankly. Well, all right. Well, listen, I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you taking the time out of the day. And I know we had to sit there during Dr. Paul's interview. Anything else you're concerned about? Did I miss anything in your story that you'd like people to know or what you're planning going forward? Well, I really want people to challenge their representatives and do it publicly. I think Twitter is a good or X is a good place for that to ask them, you know, are you continuing to take these shots?

Are you giving them to your children? And if you are not, then you need to speak up because if it's not safe enough for you, if it's not safe enough for your children, it's not safe enough for your constituents. And we just, we really need to pound that point in. And I would, I just hope more people will speak up. I've got a running list so far. I've got 15 candidates running for office and five who are already in office who are willing to say that the shot should be pulled off the market. And that list just grows every day. At very minimum, talk to your doctor. Don't listen to gigantic centralized bureaucracies. Somebody who actually cares about you, I trust, I hope you have that kind of physician to help you make that decision with you. It's breathemd.org. And your Twitter is the opposite. Is that, is it MD breathe?

Yes. Okay. Dr. Mary Talley, Tally Bowden. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Okay.

You got it. And looking at what's coming up, where are we here? We are Wednesday. So tomorrow we have Viva Fry coming back for a little visit. Look at Sean Baker coming in, Jim Brewer, Roseanne, who I have to run go to her podcast immediately following this particular broadcast. Let me just look at the Twitter spaces very quickly to here

to see if any pressing questions there. Somebody from Sweden asking questions. All right. I think I better wrap this up. Susan, any thoughts for you before I do so? No, not really. Did you learn something? I know you've got a big drive to cross town. Did you learn something about... Of course. What Did you learn something? I know you've got a big drive to cross town. Did you learn something about...

Of course. What did you learn? Is this a test? No, I just thought some of the things he was saying about the Chinese government would interest you, what Dr. Brownball was saying. No, I'm just happy I have the Chinese bots out on my Facebook today. This was a rough week for me trying to get... Yeah, I got hacked. And, you know, it feels so weird to have technology overrun your personal life, you know?

Yeah. And honestly, we have to all be suspicious of everything that we hear and see and just, you know, make your own choices and also use your common sense and trust your doctors. If they have an MD or they're a good doctor, just trust them. If you believe they're listening, they must listen to you. I have a lot of patients complaining these days that doctor won't listen. Really, I had a patient today, this morning, tell me some extraordinary things about a consultant and the way she was treated and the way I just, and this is a very, very, very bright, very informed, very motivated patient who

was treated like there was something wrong with her for having ideas or thoughts or about her own care. It was really bizarre. It was really something. And it felt like this same kind of thing. Well, you have to go in with educated questions too. Like try not to get a little, you know, don't go down the WebMD diagnosis. No, no. Listen, I don't mind when people come in with the WebMD question. I want you to be informed. I want you to go down that path and then ask me questions based on what you think you're seeing. But don't allow that to supersede what I tell you. True. Because it's my judgment that you really want, not just- You used to say, if you go to medical school, then you can diagnose yourself.

No, no, no. Isn't that what you said? No, you would never diagnose yourself. No, I mean, you used to be mad when people would come and say- Don't confuse your Google search with biomedical training. Right. That's what we would say. And not just our medical degree, but medical training.

Caleb, you learn anything today? Anything from your standpoint? Yeah, no, it was just great. It was wonderful to see Senator Paul on the show. He's great. I'm really excited for Roseanne to be in here on January. So I want you to get over to Roseanne's house, make a great impression and let's get her in here on January.

Yeah, get over there on time. My other thing is I feel so bad for Dr. Bowden, the stuff she's had to withstand. You see that's a quality person, you see it's a caring physician, you see that she was making decisions based on the circumstance and her training and her experience with the disease and she has to feel, she has to be

condemned for that. That is slander as far as I'm concerned. She should win that case. Also that I learned today is that Senator Rand Paul is one of only four physicians who are serving in the U.S should win that case. Also that I learned today is that Senator Rand Paul is one of only four physicians who are serving in the US Senate right now. So if there are people who are making these medical decisions,

shouldn't they rely on the people who are experts in this to make these choices? And he's one of four saying this stuff. You would think. It's like when YouTube goes in and YouTube gives us strikes and everything for medical misinformation or things like that. And I go and ask them, I say,

well, can Dr. Drew speak with any of the physicians on your moderation team just to speak with them? And they sheepishly just go, oh, well, we don't have any physicians on our moderation team. And I'm like, exactly. Of course. Exactly, you don't.

You don't know what you're judging here. You are not licensed. Drew is. Did you know about my run-in with the Chinese bots? Did I ever tell you about that? That was just a couple weeks ago. I see it happening whenever it comes up on your Twitter account. I always know because a lot of them come in

with these American names, but they only post in the middle of the night. They only post when it's daylight hours overseas. It's very transparent. It's so obvious. It seems to me whenever whenever i say anything or react anything li ming yong is saying that seems oh for sure absolutely it's like it's we got we we had somebody wanted to start helping us with the tiktok uh world and i responded to him i

said no because they china censored us on TikTok. I'm not using TikTok ever again. Well, don't be too certain. Well, yeah. I'm not. Listen, well, we posted about her, and we got a strike. And then it took me forever to get back on. And I was like, I don't have time for this. I do recommend the book.

I was pouring over it last night and this morning. You see, I've been marking certain pages and it's quite astonishing. And I don't understand why there's not, where is Ronan, what's his name? Ronan Farrow. Ronan Farrow, where's Ronan Farrow? Why isn't he all over this stuff?

This seems like a perfect thing for him. I really, really, really hope that secretly behind the scenes, Ronan Farrow has been putting together some massive report and he's going to crush everything that's going on here. I hope he's secretly doing something behind the scenes because it would just make some breaking Rolling Stone article. Well, I just really think a really good journalist

should step outside of, should easily step outside of politics or certainly step outside of politics or certainly a step outside of party and just give a sensational report. There's all sorts of sensational information just in this book, just in that book. All right, like I said, I'm gonna have to hit the road.

We have tomorrow, that is Viva Frye. Yes. He very kindly came in, Rob Schneider had to reschedule. So Viva Fry yes he very kindly came in Rob Schneider had to reschedule so Viva Fry coming in he's always entertaining and good

and we'll talk about our steak dinner with him in Florida and we'll be back at three o'clock our usual time Pacific time tomorrow

we'll see you then ta-ta Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky as a reminder the discussions here

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