Ask Dr. Drew - Taylor Hawkins & Substance Abuse: Dr. David Swanson on Addiction's Impact on Music – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 89

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Dr. Drew and psychologist Dr. David Swanson discuss the tragic death of Taylor Hawkins (drummer for the rock band Foo Fighters), his struggles with substance abuse, and the devastating effects of addiction on musicians.  [This podcast was originally broadcast on April 11, 2022. Watch at DrDrew.com] Dr. David Swanson formed The Rock Collective to build a mutually supportive community amongst rock bands and rock fans. They hold monthly events at the Hard Rock Cafe in Hollywood, where they feature live music from emerging rock bands in LA. The mission of the collective is to help up-and-coming artists break through to the next level. Learn more at https://rockcollective.net  Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation ( https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/FirstLadyOfLove). SPONSORS • BLUE MICS – After more than 30 years in broadcasting, Dr. Drew’s iconic voice has reached pristine clarity through Blue Microphones. But you don’t need a fancy studio to sound great with Blue’s lineup: ranging from high-quality USB mics like the Yeti, to studio-grade XLR mics like Dr. Drew’s Blueberry. Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue  • ELGATO – Every week, Dr. Drew broadcasts live shows from his home studio under soft, clean lighting from Elgato’s Key Lights. From the control room, the producers manage Dr. Drew’s streams with a Stream Deck XL, and ingest HD video with a Camlink 4K. Add a professional touch to your streams or Zoom calls with Elgato. See how Elgato’s lights transformed Dr. Drew’s set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/  THE SHOW: For over 30 years, Dr. Drew Pinsky has taken calls from all corners of the globe, answering thousands of questions from teens and young adults. To millions, he is a beacon of truth, integrity, fairness, and common sense. Now, after decades of hosting Loveline and multiple hit TV shows – including Celebrity Rehab, Teen Mom OG, Lifechangers, and more – Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio in California. On Ask Dr. Drew, no question is too extreme or embarrassing because the Dr. has heard it all. Don’t hold in your deepest, darkest questions any longer. Ask Dr. Drew and get real answers today. This show is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All information exchanged during participation in this program, including interactions with DrDrew.com and any affiliated websites, are intended for educational and/or entertainment purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. And welcome. We are hanging out today on Clubhouse and also on the Restream. And we will be talking to Dr. David Swanson, a licensed clinical psychologist, to talk about the Rock Collective. We'll tell you more about that in a second our laws as it pertain to substances are draconian and bizarre the psychopaths start this right he was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography ptsd love addiction fentanyl and heroin ridiculous

i'm a doctor for say where the hell you think think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say.

I got a lot more to say. I got a lot more to say. Maria G on the restream is asking thoughts on Paxlovid. Paxlovid is a game changer. That and Molnupiravir, these are outstanding medications. And the fact that we're not educating people how and when to use them is astonishing to me these are these make covid a nothing and the the problem is we haven't even decided yet who deserves it who's going to get it other than people at risk of getting severe disease i had a 40 old 40 something year old man who nearly died i could tell he was going down hard and fast could not get him paxlovid so please uh we should be using Paxlovid. Well, we certainly should be using Molnupiravir even for exposure, post-exposure prophylaxis

for people that have been exposed. And definitely Paxlovid for anybody who's sick, even certainly over the age of 60. All right, let's bring in our guest, psychologist Dr. David Swanson. He formed the Rock Collective to build a mutually supportive community amongst rock bands and rock fans.

They have monthly events at the Hard Rock at Hollywood. They feature live music from emerging rock bands in Los Angeles. The mission of the collective is to help up-and-coming artists break through to the next level. And after two years of lockdown, it's a pleasure to see people organizing public events. Rock

for Life, there is the, is that a billboard or is that a, where'd you get that? That's pretty interesting. That is April 24th. We want you to be there. Is there a website? Hey, David Swanson,

welcome. Good to see you again. Yeah, no, there is a website. David, what website is? Rock for Life?

Yeah, the event is called Rock for Life. The website is rock for life right yeah the the event is called rock for life the website is rockcollective.net um essentially what we're looking to do is to raise awareness around the issues of mental health and substance abuse we've lost so many great musicians and icons over the years because of this most recently taylor hawkins and we have a number of bands who really want to pay tribute and we've partnered with sweet Relief and Check Your Head podcast. And so we're hoping to make it a big event and raise a lot of money for them as well because they do a lot of good for the community. Great. Congratulations. And I know your son's in a rock band too, right?

He's in a band called Hunted, at Hunted Band. And quite honestly, they were the reason that I came up with this idea. There's so many of these young bands who are so incredibly talented. And the music industry has changed so much that one of the ways that these bands get support from a label for tours and other things is they have a lot of fans. They have a huge fan base. But the music industry has shifted in such a way that now everything's about pay to play so if you've heard these iconic stages like the roxy or the troubadour things like that anybody can get on that stage you just got to pay

your money to do so and it makes it very difficult for them yeah no it's tough to get exposure because you know the guy in front of you could have paid his money and he's a pop artist and the next guy's a country artist that goes on after you so this was a way to get a bunch of rock fans and rock fans together and do it at one location yeah that is i did not realize you pay to get on those stages how do bands make money you know they tend to make money through merch sales, but it's rough because a lot of these bands, they don't have a lot of money.

What they have is talent and they have time. So they invest an awful lot in terms of writing music and getting out there and performing. So on top of that, now you've got to be the producer of a show and you've got to be a promoter to go out there and sell all these tickets. It makes it really rough to get ahead. But I think what we're doing, it's growing like wildfire. I think our last event, we launched in January.

Our last event had over 300 people come out to it. So it's really growing. So I'm excited. Yeah. And these guys, they're loving it. They're meeting. What's that? One more time.

Where is this and where do they go? When is it? So we partner with the Hard Rock Cafe. And so all of our events, they happen once a month. The calendar is on rockcollective.net. You can see it there. You could follow us on at LA Rock Collective on Instagram. So essentially what it is, is once a month,

the Hard Rock holds these events. We've partnered with a record label. We are triumphant. We have a number of other opportunities from everything, from artist relation discounts for these guys up to we get their music on music apps as well. So a lot of great opportunities for them. But if you want to come out and see a live show, which these bands are incredibly talented, it's at the Hard Rock once a month in Hollywood.

I can't picture where the Hollywood Hard Rock is. Where is it exactly? It's at the Dolby. So figure it's right there on Hollywood Boulevard next to Highland. So it's a great location, a great stage, and it's a ton of fun. I'm having a blast. I tend to sit in these halls.

Is that a new one? Is that a new Hard Rock? Well, remember they had one at Universal, the City Walk, and I think they had one on Wilshire and Fairfax, was it? And I think that that one... No, it fairfax was it and i and i think that that no it was on sunset it was on the corner remember remember you had drdrew.com party there that first time with um the hard rock with um sunset with um you're talking about the house of blues

that was the house of blues oh never mind yeah yeah now everything that's all torn down yeah that's all torn down crazy that's a big high rise sitting there right now all right so hard rock used to be universal now it's uh by the the dolby the that's the cinerama thing on on isn't that on sunset? Well, it's on Hollywood Boulevard, Hollywood Boulevard. I think it's right. I shoot Jimmy Kimmel. Everybody Google it. If you want to go,

we'll give it. I just put up the link on the website. Oh, the dole, the, the Academy Awards theater. Okay. Right.

It's rockcollective.net. So you can get tickets there, right? Okay. Okay. Cool. I was thinking the Cinerama theater for some reason. Yeah. Okay. Oh no. Yes. Right in Hollywoodwood right behind it yeah it's all where the where the action burger very busy

down there okay good that's cool all right so let's let's step back for a minute from the event and talk about what we're seeing out there uh in the post-covid world uh are you are you treating many adolescents i am and i'm seeing a lot of stuff. Yeah, it's not good. And how would you characterize it? You know, during COVID, what I saw a lot of was these kids who felt that they were invincible missing out on parties because their parents were concerned. And then they go on social media, which you'll have a guest coming up next week, I believe talking about social media, but they'd see their friends at parties and things like that. They felt they were completely

disconnected. Uh, I did a few stories, um, based on some of this COVID stuff during the pandemic where, uh, kids were so out of touch with their friends that they didn't even, they weren't getting the physical feedback. So they didn't really know if these were really my friends or not. A lot of anxiety, a lot of depression. And then of course the parents were having a tough time. Some parents lost their jobs. Some parents, you know, were having issues with substance abuse and some were even divorcing because of this increased tension at home. Now what I'm seeing coming out of it is kind of more of the same, but I'm seeing a lot of anxiety. I don't know if you're seeing that. Well, I've been seeing it all the way along, and it could only be so.

I mean, when I look at what we did to people, it's just unbelievable. Just the idea that people thought that the risk of hospitalization for a 40-year-old with COVID was 50%. It's way less than 1%. You know, people were freaking out about it. The press freaked everybody. They traumatized people. And so people have been sort of in that survival mode of trauma. And now, of course, they're going to get the post-traumatic symptoms.

And every psychiatrist, particularly those that are child and adolescent psychiat psychiatrists just tell me the same thing anxiety depression anxiety depression anxiety depression that's all they're seeing like it's insane and and we did that to defeat i really the whole time i could see it happening to really like 8 to 15 year olds because they they were the most sort of um disconnected from their developmental process. And that was an age group where there was rapid change, both biologically and socially. And they were completely, I keep telling people, the one thing that got my attention on what we did,

we willfully did to children, was when I was watching the Ukrainian moms heading into poland we have all these moms uh heading into poland and they're usually with several kids in tow and the reporters are putting microphones in their face and the women first thing they say it's terrible it's awful we're worried about the men left behind and then within three sentences they would say and these kids have been out of school for two weeks two weeks we got to get them back in school it's been two weeks and i thought oh my god they are so right to be concerned like that they put them in polish-speaking schools they felt it was so important to get going in their social environment

and their academic environment and we just nuked that it's disgusting to me it really is disgusting and no no pre-planning no nod to we're going to get this on the other side or here's some tools to help get us across this lockdown it just was here's a here's an ipad you know if if you get back to school we're going to give you an ipad where you're going to be exposed to a bunch of sexting and pornographic material and you know we're going to we're going to pay no attention to what the risks are to you online. I don't know. I've been upset about this since the beginning. And by the way, nobody recommended it.

It was not recommended anywhere from a medical standpoint. I understand at the beginning we were trying to figure out what to do. And I was okay for it for a couple of weeks. But I was doing a show locally here on Fox 11. What's the matter, Susan? You're talking too much? Is it a strikes back moment? She's laughing at me.

I'm going to finish this one thought. You already derailed me. I've already lost what the thought was. I was on Fox 11 here. I had a show here locally every night during the first year of COVID. And we were on the air when LA Unified decided to lock down. And one of the school board members came in. I said, who told you to do this?

Where did this come from? Why did you decide? We just decided. It's like, and no plan? Yes, we have to do this and that's how they did it and the idea that it was an okay thing to do indefinitely the way they did it was just really bad wrong with a capital w and you're seeing some of the fallout yeah it's horrible and i listen since we're going down this road uh have you seen the paper out of, the lit review out of John Hopkins?

No. Have you seen this paper? No, I'm ready to go. What's it called? I'm going to find it. What's the title? All right. So it's saying basically, it's out of John Hopkins.

I don't know the title of it, but what it basically said was given everything that we did in this country to keep people safe during COVID. And of course, we didn't know going into this, but they're saying with the lockdowns

and all of that stuff, the school stuff, we prevented deaths in this country by two-tenths of one percent. That's what it's, that's the one thing. Yeah, that sounds about right. The one thing I learned is that the virus does what the virus does. It just does what it does. You can change the time course, but you can't really change much of what it does. Now, thank God we came up with vaccines. It gave us time to do that theoretically. So, okay thank god we came up with vaccines it gave us time to do that theoretically so okay uh and we came up with some treatments now that people aren't using that's why i was complaining about at the beginning of this but keep going tell me more about that article no i just when i see that and i think about all the businesses that were closed i mean for

musicians in general because that's what that i'm involved in now it's that you know yeah i watch my son for example that writing music is his therapy you know, I watched my son, for example, that writing music is his therapy, you know, like his, his ability to kind of express and articulate his thoughts, like talking one-on-one he's okay at it. But when he writes a song, you can really feel what it is that he's feeling and showing up on a stage. And there's nobody there because those stages were shut down for these people for two years. Right. And, and, and that's like showing up to the doctor's office and your psychologist ain't sitting in the chair in front of you. It's like you're talking to an empty chair. So, so many people suffered because we took away that social interaction. And I could also tell

you that a lot of people also feel completely disconnected from their families in ways that they never had. You know, it's kind of, is it okay to hug my grandmother now? Is it okay to, you know, hug my uncle? There's just such a weird sort of disconnect that we're still overcoming today. So it's, yeah, no, I think for kids and adolescents, no, you're absolutely right. They've suffered. The rates of suicidality and attempts in the ER, they're seeing a doubling of it since 2019 for girls. It's been horrible for them, but hopefully we can get away from all of the emotional stuff and start to focus on the data and really make wise choices well yeah although so girls got hit harder than boys

is that what it's usually the case yeah probably yeah they're so social or yeah yeah it's just 2019 was 51 for adolescent girls and boys i I think, uh, it might've like 4%. I, the boys for whatever reason, we're as affected as the girls. Yeah. Yeah. But it's,

it's been rough and I, I'm still, but you would need to be honest with you though. I still see a big disconnect between, uh, the data and actual, uh, you know, uh uh practices in terms of keeping people safe it's it's still it's still going on but uh and i think that is because we're so riddled with

you know it would it be would it be accurate to say the data isn't reflecting how profound this thing is well on the emotional uh side you know i mean obviously obviously look it's better safe than sorry and so we we did this big lockdown shelter in place wear a mask get your vaccine thank god for the vaccine uh but but now i think what we're starting to see is how profoundly these people not just musicians but but everybody uh everybody was really affected by the disconnect. So it's just getting back into it now. I think we've all been traumatized because I'll see people drive around in cars by themselves wearing a mask. I'll get into an elevator without my mask now and people look at me like I'm a bad person.

I mean, it's just, it is so, we're still riddled with fear. And hopefully we can move past it at some point. Because it is endemic at this point. We're not really deep. I've told the story that I was running my neighborhood down the street, and just to be nice, I ran into the gutter while I ran past this old man who was walking by himself, like double-mast, and he recoiled for me like I was on fire. I mean, it was just, this thing does not transmit outside it does not transmit outside it just doesn't and so anyway but whatever you know

anyway uh uh so i don't know about you but i'm obviously kind of angry about it. How do you feel? I just feel like a constant current of, I wouldn't call it like a disthymic current, but just constant feeling. It's just like a current of sadness, just that we've been through so much, and we're just so disconnected as people. And, you know, when you start talking about this, you also start, I mean, you brought up Ukraine, there's a lot of bad stuff going on in the world, you know, you know, that, that is, I'll say that is the one thing I'm a psychologist and I started this rock collective and, you know, my wife says, gosh, you spend so much time doing this, you know, but I gotta be honest with you when I'm involved with

this and when I'm involved with the music, it offers me an ability to get in touch with something that it just feels great it feels happy you know this this collective when you go to the hard rock there um it doesn't matter who you are you can walk in and say hi to anybody you want and everybody's very so kind and sweet you just feel like you're a part of a community that is just lighter than the rest of the world so i appreciate appreciate that. And I look for things like that. And I think we all need things like that. Yeah. So let's be more explicit about this. You're literally describing one of the things we can do to sort of lift, if we're able to function and we're not having serious mental illness, we're just having what all of us seem to have, which is sort of anxiety and depression, sort of low level.

And like you said, sadness and maybe some, you know, residual traumatic feelings. What are the kinds of things? So you're saying be part of a community, find opportunities to give back. What else can we do?

Well, I think for a lot of people, you know, it's, it's so important if you're capable of looking at the data, do your own research and and start to offer yourself some degree of exposure you know it's important to get out and start to live life again it's important to get in touch with the communities you want to be a part of it's

important to get together with your friends and family again um you know it's important to um you know i i know this is kind of an odd thing but i notice also as people get together they um they really don't have that history they used to have that they can't easily relate to one another because something just didn't happen six months ago that we're talking about. So they bring up things that they can start to connect over. And unfortunately, a lot of times those things have to do with politics. And of course, that's an ugly disaster. So I think, you know, planning to get out with people and do things together. So you have an experience to share in, as opposed to sit down and talk over a meal at this point,

I would say, get out and do things. Uh, but we got to start living. Yeah. I completely agree. Well, you said it in just one words, you know, one phrase, which is you got to start living and people want to live and it, and it's, it's, I don't know. It's still something hanging over us. Don't you notice that? I still feel like there's a, a something, I don't know, it's still something hanging over us. Don't you notice that? I still feel like there's a something. I don't know, maybe it's an anticipatory anxiety. You know, once you've been through stuff like this, you're already sort of on alert that something else might happen.

I wonder if it's that, you know, that's sort of part of what PTSD is, right? And so I'm wondering if that is just going to be with us. Yeah. No, I think it is trauma. i think we've all been through it there's no way you could take away someone's social life for two years take them away from their family for this is like what do they call it in prison uh solitary confined it's really yeah what it kind of felt like you know what i mean so now now we have it i remember seeing this thing on fleas that uh it was for my 28 year old in the pool house that's for sure yeah he had solitary confinement for nine months he sat

out there he didn't go out on a date he didn't do anything and then and then he got covid from drew you got alpha no no yeah alpha yeah he got it you got it he got it for christmas and um and then he was like and it was nothing he was like why did i just spend nine months in solitary confinement and he's still a little off he got really depressed too so i mean we're not immune to it i mean of course this family was affected pretty heavily too i I mean, we're better than most, like we're okay, but it's like, I can't imagine that what happened in the rest, you know, to the rest of the millennials and young kids, especially like kids that are, that were supposed to go to college and they ended up having to stay at home with their parents and, you know, or, or just even like, you know, we have people who had like four, four kids at home, you know, or, or just even like, you know, we have people who had like four, four

kids at home, you know, and they had to homeschool them. And that's for the parents. It's, that's even worse. Yeah. And that's again, survival mode stuff, you know. You look at the other end too, you have some kids who are like seven, eight years old. And for the first time they're going to school, you know what I mean? And, and all of that stuff, the online school and, and even therapy, I would sit here and

watch, like I do this virtual therapy. There's four months that I took time out of and even therapy. I would sit here and watch, like I do this virtual therapy. There's four months that I took time out of the office just because I noticed the numbers were creeping up. I'm 53. So I thought I'm kind of at risk. So let's be safe about it. Right. So the, what I would see is on the screen, the screen would keep, the face would keep changing color. So I knew they were playing a game while they're talking to me. It was trying to do therapy or connect with anybody over the internet is it's not the same. You miss so much. Um, but I, I do remember when you guys went through that and drew, I remember you got hit pretty hard. And I, I, I remember some of the videos you were posting. I,

it was, it was a cause for concern. It was very worrisome, you know? Um, but I listen, there was, there was this, uh, example that keeps airing. If you watch Tik TOK or whatnot, there's always this thing that comes on there and it has to do with fleas that fleas can jump like six inches or eight inches, whatever they can jump. But if you put them in a jar with a lid where they can only jump, you know, three inches they will adjust their jumping. They will adjust their height. And when you take the lid off, they won't jump any higher anymore. And their kids will be, you know,

in terms of their, and so, but this is what it feels like with COVID, like this whole social thing and this isolation trying to get out of it. It just seems like that, that lid has taken off and we still don't want to jump. It's just, you know, people are still afraid and quite honestly, not sure how to act because I think some of the people I work with at least are afraid of judgment. I know I feel it sometimes. I'm not wearing a mask. So we'll work our way out of it.

Wait a minute. Afraid of judgment? Like afraid of engaging in life because they'll be judged by somebody? Well, you tell me, during the pandemic, and Susan, you too, if somebody was not wearing, if they refused to wear a mask during the pandemic and i'm not talking i'm not making a you know whether or not they were smart or wise to do it but what presidential candidate did they support right well that's what it's not but it's not whether they did support him or not the assumption was you were you're accused of it you must be that

you must be that person yeah yeah yeah well i have a feeling because like uh i didn't really realize i mean we work from home we were able to like keep moving and and staying busy and stuff like that but when i went into pasadena and it was you know probably like a month ago or a month and a half ago i guess the mandates were still up in in california but what i didn't know was in la county you. County, you had to wear them outside. So I was like walking around and I was being judged. I was like, oh, shit, I got to put a mask on. Like this is, you know, it's such a weird feeling because you don't want to be look like you're going against it, you know.

But like if you forget a mask and you jump on a bus and then they go, oh, you have to have a mask. And I'm like, oh, crap, I didn't bring one. You feel so bad. It's like, oh, how could I do that? But I think I've only done that once in the last two years. The level of incompetence on display by public health was breathtaking. But even the virtue signaling in Pasadena was so crazy. It was bad here.

I saw it. And I couldn't believe it. And I thought, what have we done to people? What have we done? You talk about a panic disorder. You know, people running, jumping away from each other. We kind of got away with it for being old, but, you know, we get, you know, without the mask. So we had a choice.

Closed beaches and parks. They closed beaches and parks exactly where they should have been sending people. And then when they opened them, they said, you can go, you just can't lie a towel down. Don't lie a towel down, because we're going to have you arrested if you lie down on the beach. That is... That is incompetence of

the First Order. It is disgusting. I'd like an apology. I'm really angry. I know Drew's really... He sounds really angry, but Drew, you've got to look at it like it's's funny it's so bad it's funny you know it's like holy cow you know it is look i i also am very frustrated about it uh in the sense that i think about because i'm on the receiving end of the the impact it's had on people. You know, the anxiety, depression, the increased substance use and abuse, the divorces that I've seen, the fear of just like being able to go.

I mean, these are people that look like they have OCD now. These are people that have such horrible anxiety that you know it's been a trauma by some invisible invader that's going to kill you. And you have, you know, it's just a matter of like, it's like playing roulette. If age, yeah, sure, age, yeah, puts you at risk. But you never know, you know, that kind of thing. And so I'm on the receiving end of that. And I think what really got put out there was how dangerous this thing was,

as opposed to who's really at risk and what you can do to be safe. I mean, the data really didn't get out. The probability of a, they refused to let it out. They obfuscated it. And the reality is the probability of death of an 80-year-old versus a 17-year-old is 5,000 times greater for the 80-year-old. 5,000. In biological systems, that's approaching infinity.

And then, you know, I remember when I was sick, I've mentioned this many, many times was, uh, people like, well, you're scared. I'm like, why would I be scared at a 1% fatality rate as a six-year-old 1% when a doctor tells you you have a 99% probability of recovery, don't worry about that 1%. It's not going to happen to you. It just doesn't happen like that. And the reality is they thought it was like 50% or 70%. No, it was nasty, and it's a pain in the ass, and it's residual, and it's all bad. A lot of illnesses are bad. I had prostate cancer. That sucks too.

There's all kinds of shitty illnesses. This is just another one. It just happened to be very, very, very contagious. That was really the problem with it. But we should have been really quarantining and protecting the people who were at high, high risk. But I want to take a minute and say thank you, Susan, for not being one of those people that went some other direction with this. You know what I mean? I mean, we were aligned at least in our feeling about all this. I mean, you know, I am a little bit rebellious on certain occasions but like

when i'm on an airplane i do when i need air i pull it down under my nose for a couple minutes all i'm saying is you could have been an oc you know you could have been either way i'm sorry we could certainly you know shift the subject but that the point did you guys ever see those pictures about people standing in the airport with their mask on six feet apart and the next picture is them crammed into an airplane together? Have you seen that? Have you seen these pictures? Of course. Of course. Of course. I know. And it's like, oh, but you can pull it down and eat your peanuts and then we got to put it right back up. It's like, this has been,

take a sip and put it back up. But's like, this has been, this has been, but this has been my point from, from the get go, which is if these things work and work well, I will be completely in support of all of it, but they don't work and they cause harm, immense harm, immense harm and don't work.

We can't argue about whether it works or not. They don't work. The virus does what it does. As you said, the big Johns Hopkins survey showed a 0.2% effect on fatality rates. Right? Yeah. Well, I want you to see this paper. After this, I want to hear what your thoughts are on that.

All right. You got to send it to me. Let's take a quick call here. Yeah, let's let the people speak here. How dare you, Susan? What are you talking about? Are you suggesting I'm talking too much that you're saying i know you don't i don't you know the last time i i saw david he was like he asked me he goes it was right when the kids went off to school and he goes how does it feel you know to be a empty nester and i said fantastic i was like i cannot wait for them to get out fast enough.

And then he goes, he said to me, he goes, well, it doesn't hurt to have three television shows. And, you know, five minutes. Yeah, but that was there. I remember that. Then it all stopped. Susan, I remember you guys dropped one off. I do. I remember you dropped one off to school.

And I remember the blinds were in disarray. You were really upset about the blinds, I think, in the back of the room. But you know what? They were fine. They loved it. Their first year was seamless. They got through the first year. I always said, if they can go the first year and make it through the whole year, then they're going to be able to do the next three years. Well, that's actually data. That's actually true. If you just make sure that everything goes well for them. And we tried our hardest.

We had to hide your prostate cancer from them for a while. But it was so wonderful i i know a lot of people think that it's going to be the end of the world when their kids leave but i'm i have three living with me right now david they came back during covid yeah so covid sent them home yeah so i'm just gonna say that i i do like them as adults a lot better than when they were 18. When they were 18, I was much more ready to get them out. But because they are nice to me now and they appreciate me, which is so weird. But and I don't know why.

But yeah, so they came back. So I'm not an empty nester anymore. You know why they appreciate you? They're starting to understand that life is hard. I need a therapy session here, Drew. Okay, go ahead. Finish up. Go ahead.

God of butts, I've called you up to the podium here. God of butts, if you want to ask questions, you're on the podium. But go ahead. Finish your session there, Susan. I don't know, David. I'll be okay. Listen, I'm just happy. I'll live through it.

Yeah. I think it's great that they're all lived through it. Yeah. I think it's great that they're back. Certainly as we get older, we so much value that time that we get with them because it gets less and less. But I do remember sitting with you and kind of half-jokingly talking about the naked time you and Drew

could have at home. Yep. And it happened. Four years of of it and then it was over that's how we'll get them out of here that's how we're gonna do it we almost did the other day but it's okay nothing nothing graphic it did it was No, we, we have all been laughing about that because they just, they just walk into my bedroom. They never knock, nor does the housekeeper. I'm always standing there nude and, and it's like, you know, but we had a little discussion about it. I said, yeah,

you guys should probably knock on the door. It's probably a good idea. We're all hiding from each other in this house now. They're adults, so it's okay. They're okay. They're going to be fine. I'm about to lose my life. My youngest one is going to be going to Pepperdine. We have one at LMU, one at Pepperdine, and my oldest one who's in the band

is the only one who went to school to get a trade. He did a sound engineering thing, but he's going a different route, So I get to have him a little bit longer. Uh, but I'm sad to see the younger two leave. I don't, you know, I don't like it cause I'm, I love my kids. Not that you don't, but it's, it's for me, like, uh, I don't get out of the house a lot. So when I get to see them, I have a buddy to hang out with, but with them gone, it's, I just find that I have to find new things to do. So my wife and I'll have to find some new hobbies. Yeah. You will, you will. You gotta get you out of the house more. Literally. Oh my goodness.

So are you good? Yeah, that's right. I'm good. Any more in your session? Would you like to keep going? No, no. I was kind of joking. I'm fine. Okay. You know what we're talking about. But you must have thoughts and feelings about what we've been talking about, Susan, right? I mean, you've lived through all this.

We've been talking about this for a year or two, so I'm good. You just keep moving. All right. I was wondering if you had something new to add no no i know that people are dumb in times of crisis well just the way it is what what that that's just an that's actually an interesting thing to say but but i i just feel that so much was literally perpetrated without concern and uh and that troubles me yeah and at least an apology or how this is what we are an explanation we had to do it politicians don't apologize i don't know if

you ever noticed that and they don't change direction again you know there was so much now that i'm sorry i would just keep talking you always keep going yeah no just everything I know people went through an awful lot I'm thinking about all the people who lost their businesses you know even if they were willing to eat outside restaurants I'm thinking about the landlords who lost buildings

because there was a moratorium on evictions which I totally understand but what good was done for them so that they could hold on to their building I mean just so much stuff happened I think in time you'll see more and more of the anger but I actually still think which I totally understand, but what good was done for them so that they could hold on to their building. I mean, there's so much stuff happened and I, and I, I know I think in time you'll see more and more of the anger, but I actually still think it's too soon for anyone to really speak out for

fear of being judged or criticized for doing so. So I think, you know, more and more of this is going to come out as time goes on. I think if you bring up the Ukraine and you see the devastation of buildings just going to the ground and people dying in the street and you see like real war and stuff like this it kind of puts it in perspective and people are going to speak kind of like hmm maybe we can build maybe we can come back out of this you know

if though if they can live through this I mean I think we can make it and it's just it because we're we're kind of I hate to say it, but some people are really pussies and they need to just stop it. You know, they need to just say, okay, okay, we're not going to listen to this crap anymore. I'm going to say what I want and move forward. And David, you're embedded here in Southern California. We move around a bit and it is a lot different in Texas.

Yeah. Texas is good. We went to New Orleans. We went to Austin. We went to Nashville. I was down in Florida. It's a lot different in Florida. You wouldn't even recognize the United States down there. Yeah. So we got to quit worrying so much about this stuff and think about important stuff. All right. Listen, I got to take a quick break about this stuff and think about important stuff. All right. Listen, I've got to take a quick break here, David. Oh, did you have somebody on Clubhouse waiting? He never came up to the phone. Oh, okay.

By the way, if you're on Clubhouse and you want to ask questions, raise your hand, and I will pull you up. You'll be streaming on multiple platforms. If you do come for a question, we're here with Dr. David Swanson. Hang on a second. Let me get our stuff up. There we go. Do you want to give your website out in addition to the Rock Collective? No, today I just want to talk about the Rock Collective. You know, I think I'm doing as much as I can to help these bands out. And in addition to helping out all these bands, really to kind of help Sweet relief and check your head podcast. I, you know, these are great organizations that do a lot of good. And now more than ever before, a lot of these musicians, uh, who, who, you know, are either

struggling to make ends meet or they're struggling with mental health or substance abuse issues. Uh, these organizations go a long way to help these people. So I, I just want to do as much as I can to help out there. I see that you're, uh, the, the rock for life event is honoring, is honoring Amy Winehouse, Chester Bennington, and Taylor Hawkins, all people I know knew well. Amy, a little peripherally, but I've got a lot of information on her. So let's talk about those guys when we get back, okay? Let me take a minute to tell you about Blue Mics. Over the two years we've been working with our friends at Blue Mics, the world has completely adapted to working and meeting virtually.

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That is drdrew.com slash B-L-U-E. I was waiting for God of Butts to come up to the podium here, and he ended up... God of Butts. That's his name he ended up putting some questions into the um i want to meet the god of butts into the chat and he asked uh he's asking it's an interesting question what about the replacement of government oversight boards with something like a blockchain network function used to track credentials and case

history for the chain doctors so to speak and he says hi says, hi, Susan, in the chat room here. Hi. So I am not, I don't understand blockchains enough to know how that would work. But I love, here's my gravest concern. In my profession, the reason there was grotesque failure was because the profession has been overly centralized. People are now employees of hospitals and large insurance systems, and the decision-making has been centralized rather than the way a profession is supposed to be managed and practiced, which is decentralized, which is highly trained individuals using their best practices with motivated patients

and making decisions on their behalf, not following therapeutic pathways designed by insurance companies and hospital administrators. This is why my profession froze during this pandemic, and it was a horrific thing to see. So the idea that a blockchain-type situation, he's saying it's a public accounting record where a block is all money in every account

and the chain is the history of the block. I still don't get it. God of butts. But I would like to see something and I'm perfectly happy to imagine it as something digital or something in newer technologies because this was a grotesque failure.

But it needs to be decentralized and my understanding is that's one of the strengths of blockchain so uh perhaps that is the way to go all right did you were you aware of that also david uh about blockchain or about just the need no about the the central how medicine was centralized so ridiculously that the doctors couldn't doctors couldn't do anything. Just froze. We were unable to work. It just was ridiculous. I wasn't fully aware of that, no. I hear little rumors about reimbursement rates for a COVID diagnosis at the hospital versus other things.

I thought that was a little, you know, it just sounded like it would promote bias. You know, I don't know, but you would know better than I would. Actually, that was, that was, but that was actually intentional because otherwise the hospitals would have shut down. So that was actually a, they actually encouraged bias to keep the hospitals open and it worked. And then it, then, then of course,

then there were excesses after it worked, then they went too far. But let's talk about the people, some of the people you were honoring at the Rock for Life event that is April 24th, 4 p.m. at the Hard Rock Cafe Hollywood. Amy Winehouse, I don't know if you know her story, but she was so poorly served by the alcohol treatment world in the Great Britain.

It was awful, like awful you can't believe. If you watch the documentary on Amy Winehouse, you will see one and only one doctor attempt to actually help her and render care. The rest of them were enabling shitheads. It was beyond belief to me. So that's why she died. I mean, she had all kinds of other crazy things going on, and she was a terrible alcoholic. But the treatment she got was atrocious yeah no i think it's it's really sad and it's sad for a lot of these people kurt cobain

very similar uh situation you know i think you know what i he had good treatment he had a lot of treatment he just was a terrible heroin addict i mean really bad now i mean today's world he might have gotten some replacement therapies and things like that they didn't have those things back then he was really i i've talked to people that treated him and he was about as sick as you can get and so the prognosis and a you know a very very poly diagnosed very sick heroin addict it's not good it's not good yeah my understanding was that he walked away from uh from exodus is that not true he was in exodus recovering and he walked away he left he left many programs many many programs i've heard stories up and down up and down uh and you can't

help people if they you were not allowed to you know and this is predicting these states on the west you know he was in washington and california you're not allowed to do anything you'd let him go you just got to let him go that's why we have all those people in the streets outside David's window it's just because we're not allowed to help people that whose brains aren't working right and then Chester Bennington though to

me is the saddest of the sad he was the greatest guy he loved his kids he loved his wife he had real deal recalcitrant chronic recurrent major depressive disorder like a real deal and i i don't i wasn't involved in his care but i i was aware that he was treated and took it seriously but god i he had many different waves of serious suicidal intent, and it was always sort of there as a potential fatal expression of his depression. But it still was a shock.

It was a shock that you couldn't – that couldn't be effectively treated, someone with all those resources and smarts and you know things to be thankful for it really did to me Chester was an example of how treacherous depression can be yeah and he spoke openly about that and you know the thing about him in particular that I've noticed that I've done some some research on a lot of these guys is that he spoke openly about it. He advocated for depression. He wanted people to do something about it. You know, even though he couldn't save himself, he was out there trying to help others. So that was great to see.

Yeah. Yeah. And he did advocate for himself. This event, you know, all of these bands who have come into the collective, one thing I'll say is that they've all been inspired by these artists. The idea that...

Really, what I did was I opened it up to all of the bands and said, listen, is there somebody that you would like to honor? This is to raise money for mental illness. They all came forward with these bands. I mean, this might sound kind of odd, but it's my first time hearing about Elliot Smith. I mean, I've heard, you know, the Good Will Hunting theme

song and things like that. But, you know, there's an artist in our collective that just really was touched by Elliot Smith. You know, Paul Gray from Slipknot, another one you I'm sure you've probably have spoken to. But, you know, just a lot of sad stories here. And there's such a need, you know, to spread awareness. Paul is an example of somebody who was getting it and was sober a lot of the time. And that always breaks my heart when they're in it doing well, and all of a sudden this disease does its thing. It's really bad. Just, again the this is what I want to sort of point out is how how treacherous these illnesses can be I mean even in good hands in proper care and get it still it's almost like it has a kind of the flavor of like a cancer it just recurs and does its thing you know

and we in spite of all our best efforts and and some of these illnesses that's the way they are. Yeah. However, you've noticed? Oh, I was going to say, in my practice, what I've noticed with whether it's musicians or whether they're actors or whatever it is, I think oftentimes it makes it worse. And you brought up the point of enabling. A lot of caregivers will just be the yes people because they are because of the money that's involved. But even more than that, I mean, I remember having an actor who told me, I can't let word get out that I have cancer because I'll never get a job again. You know, so it's one thing to be suffering and to be in such anguish, but the pressure to not let anybody know, I mean, talk about, we don't want people to isolate when they're depressed, but yet a lot of

times these people feel that they have to isolate from the world for fear that it's going to be, you know, talked about everywhere. They don't want, they have to isolate from the world for fear that it's going to be talked about everywhere. They want to almost be invisible. So I think these professions in particular put a lot of pressure on people and oftentimes make this worse. Yeah. The reality is that sometimes they can't be insured if they're straightforward about what's going on. As insurance is put on some of these productions and things or shows and tours the other thing and to your point i don't know if you saw it as vividly as i did over the years but the the problem wasn't the problem

wasn't the public life so much as the return to work they were always in a hurry to return to work both because they had commitments and they made lots of money and people who were making money off them wanted them back to work. And so they'd always be leaving treatment, not necessarily prematurely, but not when we'd like them to, taking half measures. I'll bring a sober coach along. It's going to be okay. It really is the returning to work prematurely that got in the way in my situation with my patients. Did you find something similar? So you're aware of like insurance issues and things like that, that I'm completely

unaware of because I never really get into that with people. What I hear about more so is just worry. Here's somebody who's suffering, but it's like the worry of the people who are dependent upon them. So for example, there was one person who wasn't going to work in a production and they had 50 to a hundred people that their jobs depended on them showing up. So how do you take time to recover for yourself when you've got these people depending on you? The idea that, you know, I can't connect with my family. I want so badly to be able to have a connection,

yet I'm so numb. I don't feel anything. So I can't even connect with my family. And just what I talked about earlier is that pressure of, you know, having a brand and, you know, how the impact that this will have, not just on you, but everybody else around you because of the brand of what people depend on you to be. So there's a lot of pressure. And so I can only imagine what what these you know i oftentimes you know uh i i i think about you know ozzy osbourne you know uh by the way never worked with ozzy i've never met ozzy osbourne uh but the idea of performing in front of that many people

on stage uh you know what a great thing that must be to feel that energy but i can't imagine life after you've experienced that trying to step away from that and how do you fill that sort of void so there's that going on too there's just so much on and and i think the position that these people are put into only complicates it yeah no you are that is you are framing it differently but saying exactly the same thing i was saying because the people that make the money oftentimes will guilt the brand, so to speak, with all of these people are relying on you. You'll be fine. Come on, we can't cancel this thing. It's exactly the same phenomenon that gets them back to work prematurely and focused on work and not on their recovery. And then the other issue of, what was the other thing you just said at the end there in my brain?

Oh, the loss of, that's the other thing that freaks them out completely is that they're going to lose this thing. It's not that the stress of being up there as Ozzy is such a big deal. It's that it will go away. And one day I'll lose it that is that that thought of losing this thing that is so uh gratifying to them is what gives them uh anxiety about it people always think oh it's so hard to be a celebrity no no no they love it it's losing the celebrity status that stresses them out that that's what they don't like so and the whole very interesting there's a whole there's a whole other thing.

We were talking earlier about like, you know, not wearing a mask in public and the fear that, that somebody would look at you like you're a bad person, but also in that industry too. It's like, if you haven't done something recently, then nobody wants you, you know, that that's the fear, right? So yeah, no, that pressure is definitely there. And I think it's very profound for a lot of these people.

And, and the, having a medical or psychiatric illness that does, you know, just enough to tip a job away, something like that. Susan, you're saying, yes, I heard you say, but you were not on my, yeah. And don't, don't go on Fox news. I'll never work in Hollywood again. Is that true? Right, right, right. Because, you know, you talk a national blackballed local affiliate, local affiliates. Okay. But, but you have to qualify it every time you talk. I talk about, I have to go. It's the local Fox 11.

Oh, and I'll think Simpsons and family guy. That's the thing I do. You can't just say I was on Fox 11 that you have to, you have to go through a whole thing. Like, no, no, I know it's a local affiliate,

not Fox. No, no. You have to be scared of friends there. So I just, people in Hollywood are afraid of losing all the time. They're constantly worried about it because it's so, um,

it's so judgmental. It's so political. And like, if you're not hot, you're nothing. Except you live now in a time that, thank God, Susan set this studio up so we could have an outlet to the world. And this is a different time when you don't have to worry about cowards. These people are all cowards is what they are. Let's be honest about what it is. They're cowards.

They're afraid that they're going to lose their job if they have a failure. They are unwilling to take any risk. And the whole thing is collapsing around them. Television is just collapsing. It really is. And it is a new day when people can go directly to the world. They watch a major movie star slap another person on stage, and they're not willing to call that out or everybody just says oh well you know it's okay because they're afraid to lose their job so i

don't want to necessarily put you on the spot you obviously don't know will smith but when you when you see that i'm just wondering what your thoughts were because i had a real specific take i'll share with you in a second but i don't want to lead the witness just yet. So what, what did you have any thoughts about what you were saying? Not necessarily what caused it, but what you thought about it. All right. So just to be clear, you know, I, I don't watch these things. I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not that guy. I'm usually out running around with my family or doing something.

But, you know, for me, obviously it was, I didn't believe it when I first heard about it. So of course I had to take a look and see if I could find video. And very quickly I was able to find video. At first I thought it was staged because I couldn't even believe that, that he would do such a thing. And I'm a little aware of some of the stuff going on in that relationship. But it was an assault, you know, and I guess the part that really disturbed me the most was seeing it without mentioning names, seeing a few people, uh, consoling Will Smith after he hit another person as opposed to Chris Rock. That, that to me blew me away. You know, I don't know why you would be consoling that person.

This is, you should be consoling the guy that just got hit. He was assaulted. Yeah. So I feel like that too and then it's like you know it reminded me of michael jackson you know how he just kept taking drugs and he could start he was always out of it and he was always doing weird stuff and he had lawyers and everything but the people around him were like oh it's okay you know it's yeah that is that is very much it susan and that dav, that was my take,

which is I get to see some of these celebrities that do, when situations when the normal, you know, basic boundaries and parameter of civilization of the last 3,000 years are just seemingly the person is unaware of them or violates them. You know, the relationship between an audience and a performer that you're sitting in the audience at the Academy Awards and seemingly unaware of these things and violating all

those boundaries that have been in place since the Greeks were, you know, performing in amphitheaters. That, when I would see people that did things like that and shut the door and evaluate them, what was going on was way worse than you imagine. Really bad, bad, bad. So whatever is going on with Will Smith, I'm gravely concerned because it's far more than we imagine. That's sort of what I took away from it. You would have to agree, too. I always am asking the question, like, what are they suffering with that would compel them to act in such a way? And that's one of the things you do with your clients when they're really offended and they take things personally,

to start to understand that it might have been an attack on you. It was kind of like an expression of what they were going through. But you and I both know that there are people as well who feel entitled. And I'm not saying Will Smith feels this way, but there are people who feel so entitled. I mean, it's a little odd to see that happen. And the next thing you know, you see him dancing at the governor's ball like that. That's what's going on. No worry, no guilt, no nothing. No, it's party time. You know, that was a little odd too. So the optics of that didn't look great. And there certainly are that they just don't have

that connection. And so they feel entitled and, and they're, you know, there's characterological things that would, would lead to that. So that said, and not, not good, not good characterological things. I would say, I mean,

psychopathological, not, not just, not just character. Like we, some speak of commonly real psychopathology. Um, uh,

by the way, uh, Drew's not afraid to be on Fox news. He's going to be on the Gutfeld show next Monday. Marianne, come on up to the podium. Well, I would happily be on CNN like I was for 10 years or MSNBC or anywhere else if they would allow me, but they don't.

It's bizarre. You're only allowed to go certain places, and they won't take you for whatever. Nobody wants to be on CNN anymore. I'd go talk at CNN. I would go chat there. No know they won't take you for whatever it's nobody wants to be on cnn anymore i'd go talk at cnn i would go chat there no you wouldn't let me this is i remember doing that show with you i'm shocked that you're you're not there anymore it was a great show burt was a great producer i don't know what happened but you know but but you know the thing is is that that goes again to the point of what we're talking about just culturally where we are as a country right now and the fear to do the wrong thing and even of these social media apps or things like Parler or whatever it is.

And still, yet, you don't have a general consensus about where you can actually get the data. There's no centralized data point where you can just read it. Everything's an editorial, and it makes it really tough to trust anything, which makes it tough for us to all connect and get behind something. It's true. It's very true. Marianne, I've asked you to come to the podium you just have to accept my invite your hand is up and i've asked you to come and uh you're welcome to come to the podium if you wish uh before you do you may have to wait for josh because i'm asking him as well so if you come to the hey josh what's happening hey Hey, Dr. Drew. Not much. Boy, this is a really good conversation with a clinical psychologist. I want to know how we can stop putting, I think I heard you mention this,

it's about boundaries. And I want to say, how do we stop putting all of our stuff out there? These are your words, Dr. Drew, in this thing we call social media or the metaverse. Because I feel like we're hidden there and it's very easy to put all of our stuff onto someone else because we assume there's no blowback because it's hidden, it's the internet, it's streaming show, it's whatever. Yeah. So Josh has been very concerned and part of underlying his question is, Marianne, hold on a second. I'm going to answer Josh's question first. He's been very worried. I've been very worried about projection.

I realized, I heard a great psychoanalyst the other day said something, just a nice profound nugget. He said, you know, when people with character pathology particularly narcissistic spectrum your cluster B say you are what you should hear is I am that every it's really their projection of their stuff and so I've been very concerned about all this projection that people are doing when they don't realize that's what they're all the Nazis they see and all the this that they see out in the world is really fears about what's going on inside them. And alongside of that projection, envy. Lots and lots and lots of envy. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on these things.

Well, a couple things. One, when we're looking at social media in general, it's really sad that these things tend to be more of a highlight of a person's life. So there's no way to look at social media and walk away feeling good about your condition. It's just not. The idea that you're going to make something out of someone's life where you see people buy into, in other words, people have a hard time thinking for themselves, so they will buy into a train of thought or philosophy. And that's what the health crisis was all about, is what you're saying earlier. And people do it with regards to everything. So rather than thinking about the potential outcomes or the potential reasons for something

happening or why someone did something and being open to it, they have their mind made up before they even look at the situation. And then they're going to come up with a projection that suits that philosophy. It'd be great if people would take a step back and start to understand from a perspective what the alternatives or what the options or what the reasons potentially could be and to be open about those things. But we want to feel like we know what's going on, and so we buy into a philosophy, and we create what it is that we need to create to support our own philosophy,

at least the one we buy in. It might not even be ours. Yep, that's right. That's right. Okay, Marianne, come back up to this podium. Your mic was making a lot of noise, so I put you back in the audience, but you are now invited to speak,

so come on up, Marianne. Your hand is up, and you are clicked the audience, but you are now invited to speak. So come on up, Marianne. Your hand is up and you are clicked on again. There you are, I think. I don't know why Clubhouse is so clunky this way, Susan. I don't think it's anything I'm doing. It must be something about the way people are notified. I don't know. It's very odd.

I love clubhouse, but we're going to try Twitter spaces sometime soon as well. So make sure you're following Dr. Drew on Twitter as well. Twitter spaces. So you fit, follow me on Twitter to get to Twitter spaces. Is that how it works?

Yeah. It's connected directly to your Twitter account and it's kind of, they're almost like, I guess they're copy of what clubhouse is, but we're going to start trying both of them when we get back. Let's do it. It's at Dr. Drew.

Let's let's do it. I'm ready. Five minutes. So I hate to like leave you guys, but five minutes, I got to do it. Let me, let me get you.

I'll get you going, but I'll see if I can get these calls answered and I'll let you go. But thank you for being here. Let's give, let's give the plugs again. Where do you want them to go? Hard Rock, April 24th, 4 o'clock, right? Rock or Lock. At 4 o'clock, come out and support some great causes,

see some great live bands playing. In addition to that, you can follow us on Instagram, at LARockCollective, and you can also see us online and see our calendar there, as well as our partners and a lot of great musicians at rockcollective.net. David Swanson, everybody. We thank you so much for being here. We miss you and hopefully we'll see you soon. Miss you guys too. I can't wait to see you. Take care.

All right, man. Take care. Thank you. Tomorrow I said, we're going to have an expert in the effects of social media and electronic media, that kind of thing. Ta-ta. This Miss Metal Shows, who is, I don't know who that is. There we are. Anna.

Anna, what's going on? Your mic is muted. So unmute there. There you are. Hi. Sorry. No problem. No problem.

I'm in recovery as well and um my boyfriend he's also a musician and you know we're both former meth addicts and um but we're not celebrities right so uh it's um so i was curious to know what your idea of um when someone's ready what does that mean exactly because right now now, you know, my only resource is the 12-step program and that's, you know, it's got its pros and cons with it, of course, but that's the only resource I have because I'm just in a situation where there's no way I can afford treatment or anything like that. So are you clean now or are you having trouble staying clean? Purchasing eight months.

Okay. And so I'm not quite sure I'm getting your question because you've been going to NA or something and it's working and you're doing fine. Here's an example. So I had to break up with my sponsor yesterday because she doesn't work and I have to work or I'll be homeless. We're still struggling we're gonna lose our place regardless it looks like and we're in Silicon Valley we're not gonna be able to make it out here so we're just trying to sort things out and while I'm in recovery it's just you know my my mind my mind's still kind of healing you know um from my understanding so it's just been

really really like stressful and difficult but um I'm not someone that qualifies for disability or any type of benefits or anything like that. And so that's why I had to leave my sponsor and find a new one, you know, because she didn't really respect and understand that I have to work and I have, I have a schedule I need to meet and I've been trying to grow my career and everything. So, and when you, when you mentioned with celebrities and everything, you, you told them that, well, they're not ready yet. You know, like, and I know that they're, they're definitely a different caliber in that sense,

but I mean, what does that actually mean? Ready? I'm willing to meet anybody where they are. Right. But when somebody is not following direction, when you're not following direction, that implies that they're not all the way into treatment. They're not all the way there with it at this point. And so we'll sort of glibly amongst ourselves kind of refer to that as not ready. And when people have a near-death experience, they usually are very willing. They all of a sudden will do anything that is directed towards them, both by their sponsors and their peers and their treating team. They just do what they're supposed to do and follow directions

and do all the structure associated with getting better, and they get better. I've seen people that I didn't think were going to make it, make it and do great. So I try not to pass judgment on, you got to be careful with the terminology we use. Because somebody's not ready, I'm not judging them. That's just sort of a state they're in that I have to kind of contend with, see if I can get them all the way in.

You know what I mean? So I'm wondering what else your sponsor was angry about, or not angry about, but pushing you about that made you guys conflict. No, it was just, you know, I have to, so when it comes to in-person meetings, I mostly have to do like online meetings right now, which I don't mind, but I already work on the computer all day. So I really thrive at in-person meetings and I kind of have to commute to

them right now, you know, and so the gas and everything and so she you know I have to go doing commute time on the one you know it's very time-consuming and either way I will find a new sponsor you know I don't think people should ever feel bad again okay any sponsor I think that is a that is a just make sure it's somebody with a lot of time under their belt look can I can i can i query your situation so you can help other people understand what meth addiction does i'm well i think this is a good topic because i am someone that didn't see myself becoming a meth addict i was pretty anyways i'm really suffering from depression right now i gained a lot of weight right now so i'm kind of struggling with that but i didn't think

it would become like a deadly issue for me like when i heard like oh you know meth addicts they die like in five years when they start using i i kind of laughed at that i started using right but um now i take it serious because my boyfriend and i we've been losing people in our circle that we used to use with left and right it's like a weekly basis we're losing people and in like really horrific ways yes meth is meth is very odd it kills in very strange ways but it kills and people can be sick with it for a long time and then all of a sudden they're dead uh yeah and but you must have did you have some sight or certainly you've seen i don't know if you personally had but certainly you've seen meth addicts become paranoid and psychotic you

want to talk about that a little bit oh yeah i've been 51 50 you know i've um you know but i've also suffered from complicated grief because i had an ex commit suicide in 2014 and that's what perpetuated my addiction from cocaine to meth and um and so i i kind of had like a because you probably hear a lot of meth addicts we kind of like see like like evil in the world all of a sudden like that we i said i became more spiritual too i kind of like my my catholic faith kind of like i feel like kind of saved me from the situation good why don't you get more involved with that i mean really well i mean i as i said i'm full polish and i was um i was raised catholic we're not that religious i i kind of like but maybe just you said it saved you maybe just for the sake of

you know with math structure and leading a certain kind of life and following direction it's really important for math because oh yeah you know you got to just do the do and even if it's just going through the ritual i'm not saying you have to embrace everything the Catholic church has to offer. I'm saying that the ritual and just being in that kind of environment could be very useful for you. No, that's why I really want to, even my boyfriend now, like we're trying to get his felonies taken care of so he can travel to

Europe and stuff like that. Hopefully you'll let him in. But you know, there in but you know um there's you know i i i i'm struggling the catholic church just like on like not spiritually but like i i'm i understand their their flaws because i and i suspect i know how you can arrange this but it kind of seems like and you know mood stabilizer or something in that order might really help you and i you know there are free services around okay you know and how do i navigate that because i definitely need some assistance with that because i am struggling with i hear it i hear it um thank you there's

susan what was the name of that place in beverly hills that was free services was it magnolia house you listening god you're asking the wrong person. Um, look it up. Where are you? And where are you calling from? I'm in the Bay Area. And the meth out here is okay. Yeah. It's that it's that p2p stuff. It's it's it's crank. It's it's made out of you know, it's chemicals from the auto garage. It's really bad. I know. I mean,

I'm going to look, look, here's the deal. I'm glad you were alive. I'm glad you were in recovery. Your life depends upon taking care of it right now and staying on the course. And they're usually, if you, maybe you see San Francisco,

they're usually free services you can get for psychiatric care, at least on a limited basis. So at least you can see a nurse practitioner or a physician assistant, something like that. And I would bet UC San Francisco Department of Psychiatry would have something. You have to make recovery possible. And oftentimes a mood stabilizing agent is very important for a meth addict.

Chris, I'm going to bring you up. What's going on? You're on mute. I love how she's so open. I'm off mute now. Hey, Doc, how you doing? You're on mute. I love how she's so open. I'm off mute now. Hey, Doc, how you doing? Good. Hang on.

Susan, how Anna was so open? I love how she's so open. It's just like. About her meth addiction? Yeah, about her drug addiction. You know, if you're around any addiction, they hide it because they want to keep doing it. So they have to be open and honest in order to recover. But it only affects good people.

It affects and turns them into things they're not. And so to be sort of ashamed of it is a bizarre concept. I know. I've met a lot of drug addicts. I get it. Yeah. If you're around it, it's a bizarre. She was just very enthusiastic about her change.

Well, she's a little too enthusiastic right now. So that's why I think she's having mood fluctuations. That's okay. It's nice that you reached out. Absolutely. Oh, no, no, no, no. I feel it. I feel what's having mood fluctuations. That's okay. I said she reached out. Absolutely. No, no, no, no. I feel it. I feel what's going on, and I want her to recover.

Kristen, go ahead. Okay. So I've been, over the past month, I've been weaning myself, working with my doctor, switching from one antidepressant to another i've been coming off of effectser and going on to wellbutrin okay just because i was experiencing weird side effects and my very smart doc was like well that's not good and i agreed and i really wish that somebody had told me six years ago i started taking effectser after my last child was born because I had terrible postpartum. And yesterday, it was the craziest thing. I started experiencing those zaps that everybody talks about.

Okay, so you got them. That's nasty. Yep. I was an absolute train about. Okay, so you got them. That's nasty. Yep. I was an absolute train wreck. Yeah, they're terrible. And it was terrible. Yeah, they're terrible. Because my kids were around.

I have three little kids, 11 and under, and trying to keep myself under control. And, well, I have three sets of eyes looking at me wondering what's wrong are you taking are you taking uh venlafaxine or desvenlafaxine venlafaxine okay and how much uh i am going down from oh golly i would have to look. It was a large dose. Yeah. You got to go really slow, really slow. I think I went too fast. Yeah.

But my question, I mean, what I'm going through, I'm going to fix. I always have to fix it because I have people who rely on me to fix these things and I will but my question today is for people who have families and kids and you're trying to explain to them like I'm mom's not sick mom's just dealing with something and that something is depression I tried explaining it to my eight-year-old last night because she kept asking me over and over she's a brilliant child but i don't know how to explain these things i i would talk about it in terms of uh somatic symptoms like fatigue and sleep and appetite and muscle aches and you know if something goes out of my brain and i lose a certain chemical and it gives me these symptoms to talk about mood per se or i i wouldn't even get into it you could talk about sadness things like that they would they would get that but affect is not something

they can really understand until about 19 so yeah so it just breaks my heart because I do my best. I have always done my very best because I know that these kids rely on me. I'm their mom, and I'm a damn good mom. But sometimes things just don't work the way I want them to be. Mom, you're allowed to get sick. You're allowed to get sick. All right? Stop it.

Okay. Yeah. Beating yourself up is not good for your kids either hey suzy wants to know what are the zaps so let's try to explain to people coming off of certain antidepressants venlafaxine very classically paxil very classically you get these weird feelings of zap up your neck and into your forehead or just into your forehead they feel like electrical discharges sometimes associated with sort of a dizzy feeling why don't you describe it chris well for me the zaps it was very similar to what

you were describing um and then what you don't anticipate is you get these kind of uh it feels like you're uh being electrocuted mean, not like super electrocuted. I think not a lot of people know what that's like. A current going on in your head. But then you start to feel anxiety on top of that because you don't understand what's going on. So you start to get numbness in your hands. Yeah, but the anxiety may be part of it. It may actually be a piece of the whole reaction in addition to psychologically reacting to it.

But I think there's actually some component of anxiety as well. And it's protean, and it's difficult to describe, and it's unpleasant. The unpleasantness is what's so characteristic of it. And you've got to just go very slowly off these medicines. I've seen it from Zoloft. I've seen it from a lot of different SSRIs. But classically, Paxil and Effexor are the two that it's associated with the worst. Well, Chris.

I'm slowing everything down. I'm just. Stop it. Stop it. Yeah, I mean, you demand so much of yourself, and everything has to be perfect, and none of us are perfect, and all of us are biological, and I'm sorry you're miserable with this, but don't add to it by beating yourself up.

Okay? Thank you so much. All right, Chris. Come in. Hang in there. All right. i think i better wrap stuff up uh thank you all for being with us thank you david swanson tomorrow i'm gonna get you then our oh hang on a second uh this is gonna be interesting tomorrow her name is leslie carr and she is an expert in trauma stress culture but also digital technology the impact on the brain eco-anxiety is something she's into right now uh she got a bunch of uh concerns about how climate change is how is affecting people's psychology both i i suspect it's the actual the reality of

it and the political wrangling around it and the anxiety provoking uh you know sort of uh end of world messages that young people are getting is adding to terrible mental health issues so we'll get into that with dr leslie car tomorrow at three o'clock and as i said we'll be uh back on tuesday and wednesday of next week uh guests have not been booked yet. And Friday of the following week. So Caleb, thank you for producing. Susan, good job. Caleb's taking a vacation too. Caleb's gone also.

It's one of the reasons it's going to be wild before we get back. And baby's not even going to be with them. Imagine that. It's the first time we are excited and scared about being away from him. It's been a while. He's been in our lives. We don't know what we're going to do with ourselves. Take Whiz Chris with you.

We'll all get a nice little chill break. She needs it. But she'll be okay, I hope. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Let's see. I think that's it. Hang on one second, yep. Let's see. I think that's it. Hang on one second, guys.

All right, that's it. He doesn't like to go. Yeah, I don't like to go. He's like, oh, look at this, Susan. Look at that. Hysterical. I know. Making faces.

He looks just like you. That is fantastic. He's my sweet boy. Fantastic. Oh, my God. I remember when he wanted to get pregnant. I know, remember? He came on my podcast and they said they told you you're going to have a baby.

Colby totally predicted it. She's good with the baby predictions. Colby knew right away. She's got the baby thing. That was crazy. All right, you guys. We're going to wrap it up and we'll see you tomorrow at three o'clock. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky.

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