Barn Talk - How to Build a Successful Farming Operation: Expert Financial Strategies and Infinite Banking w/Mary Jo Irmen

Episode Date: August 3, 2023

Welcome to Barn Talk! What happens at the barn, stays in the barn, but not today! We’re letting it all out. In this episode we have Mary Jo Irmen on the show, she is the host, author and Farm Finance Strategist of Farming without the bank. Discover the importance of expert mediation, the pitfalls of non-family member attorneys. Uncover the intriguing world of infinite banking and its potential for financial success in farming.  Buy Our Pork From Our Farm ➱ https://farmergrade.com Interested in diving deeper into the world of propane? Discover a wealth of information, tips, and resources by visiting ➱ https://propane.com/ Follow Mary Jo  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mjirmen/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MaryJoIrmen  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/farmingwithoutthebank  Barn Talk Merch! 👇🏻 https://www.thislldo.co/  SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST ➱ https://bit.ly/3a7r3nR   SUBSCRIBE TO THIS’LL DO FARM ➱ https://bit.ly/2X8g45c  SUBSCRIBE TO BARN TALK CLIPS ➱ https://bit.ly/3BlZnqq   LISTEN ON: SPOTIFY ➱ https://open.spotify.com/show/3icVr4KWq4eUDl7Oy60YMY  ITUNES ➱ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/barn-talk/id1574395049 Follow Behind The Scenes👇🏻 ● This’ll Do Farm Instagram ➱ https://bit.ly/30KPBNk   ● Barn Talk TikTok ➱ https://bit.ly/3qciekS   ● Sawyer’s Instagram  ➱ https://bit.ly/3BtX0n4   ● Tork’s Instagram ➱ https://bit.ly/3LGZJxS    ------------------------------- ***PLEASE NOTE*** Barn Talk is a significant break from the typical content viewers have come to expect from This’ll Do Farm. Please be advised that we will be exploring a wide variety of topics (some adult-themed) and our younger viewers (and their parents) should be advised that some topics will be for mature audiences only. ⚠NO FINANCIAL ADVICE / DISCLAIMER⚠  The Information discussed and shared on Barn Talk is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including warranties of accuracy, completeness, or success for any particular purpose. The Information contained in or provided from or through this podcast is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice, investment advice, trading advice, or any other advice. The Information on this podcast and provided from or through our content is general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. You should not make any decision, financial, investment, trading or otherwise, based on any of the information presented on this podcast without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional, professional broker or financial advisory. Understand that you are using any and all Information available on or through this website at your own risk. RISK STATEMENT– The trading of Bitcoins, alternative cryptocurrencies, NFTs, individual stocks, etc. has potential rewards, and it also has potential risks involved. Trading may not b... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's the family and friends event at Shoppers Drug Mart. Get 20% off almost all regular priced merchandise. Two days only. Tuesday, April 28th and Wednesday, April 29th. Open your PC Optimum app to get your coupon. All of the food we eat and much of the clothing we wear comes from plants and animals that are raised on farms. Farms are different in type, in size, and even in name. Welcome to Barn Talk.

What happens in the barn usually stays in the barn. but not today. We're going to let it all out for you. We got a guest today, and we're going to, we're going to bring you a different point of view. Our guest, I haven't really seen this talked about anywhere else. She's on TikTok. She's all over, and she has some unique ideas, and we just thought that it'd be real interesting to get her point of view, because it's something and we haven't heard much of. She is the host, the author, and the owner of farming without the bank. Before we get into it, guys, you know the drill.

If you get any value from the show, pay the fee. Share it out your friends, family, coworkers, employees, whoever. It's kind of the ticket to admission to watch or listen to the show. Feel free to leave us a review on Spotify or Apple. And give us your, give us your, give us your questions. If you have any questions for us for our Q&A episodes, submit them at BarnTalk Show at gmail.com. Without further ado, let's get into it. All the way from North Dakota, Mary Jo Erman, welcome to Barn Talk. Thanks for having me. Like how we just shoehorned that in there.

So how is how is your drive? You know, you talked about you guys made the trip. How long, how long of a drive was it to get to southeast Iowa here? I think we were 11 hours by the time. we rerouted and had the, you know, passed the accident and stopped for lunch. So it was a bit drive. Wow, we should feel special, that. You better be on the best evening. Mary drove 11 hours for us. No, not really.

What are you actually up here for? Well, I have a client-only event that I am doing since I have a lot of clients here. And I have a non-client event this evening for non-clients to talk about just farming without the bank, life without the bank, all things without the bank. all things without the bank. She was coming to see us and then she figured while she was here, she should probably do it. Exactly.

That is exactly how that happened. It's a matter of fact. We've been trying to get this one on the books for a while, but it's just when you live so far apart, it's hard to make it work. But hey, it happens. It came about. I don't drive past.

I've been on the west side of Iowa two or three times, but you don't go on the east side of Iowa every day or central Iowa. We're well located if you want to talk about. look at or deal with anything with pigs. Other than that. Or corn. Or corn. Yep, that's 100%.

That's 100%. What was your observation about Iowa and our corn and our beans versus out where you're at? So you guys plant like in the ditch practically, which is crazy. There's no ditches right up to buildings. Like you can't even walk between the building and the row of corn. I don't know. that's talent. That is an amazing operator right there. That's not even GPS. That's like amazing. And you don't, you plant right up to people's yards. There's no, some people I don't even think have a yard because it's, like, does that one, here's my question.

Does that one extra row or two of corn really make that much more money that it's the difference between having a yard and not? Well, every bushel bad. Every bushel counts. But the other thing is, and I can attest to this, I am of the generation that I grew up having to mow all that yard. And unfortunately, our farmstead, the way it's situated, like you can't farm away the yard. But if I could, I think I would, because I'm so tired of mowing.

I'm like, I don't know where. We mow like 10 acres. We mow about 10 acres. and I love it. Like I don't love the mowing part. It's not so bad now that we have a zero turn. But I love the way it looks. Like that is one thing you guys do have the people that do have yards and not cornstalks.

They, even the cornstalks are very straight and clean. But the yards are amazing. Amazing. It's like they all mowed for us. Like, oh, Mary Jo's coming. Everybody mow today. Yep. So when she drives by to my mom,

there's not one blade of grass that's too long. My dad had a saying every time that we would, well, two things. One, he would say, never hurts to have company because it's the only time you got everything tidied up. And then every time we got done, he'd go, well, it doesn't make any money, but it sure looks nice. And I'm like, yeah. Mowing after the fact is the best part, the satisfaction.

Doing it, it's just tedious. That's the hard. part about it. But I actually have, I love to see like, oh, like we moaned the other day before I left. And my husband is just like, oh, we got to mow. I'm like, we mowed four days ago. I think we can go another day or two. Oh, we got to get that mode.

And so, and he doesn't watch podcast so I can totally lie. But he sets it on four and I'm like, that is way too high. And I move it down. Oh, that is now. Oh, my God, I don't have to mow as much. Those are fighting words there. You start messing with the height. You know what, though?

I didn't move it back the other day, so he's going to know. Anyway, but I am, so it's just gratifying to see, like, you know. And our yard is basically pasture turned into a yard. It's really rough. And we have so much, I think it's sweet clover coming in. And it's just like, and I needed to get it mowed down. So you didn't see. the yellow. Nobody messes with my number four. Yeah, you don't want to mess. Don't mess with the

thermostat and don't mess with the mower height. That's right. That's right. Or else, or else the sticks coming out. I feel heard. So if you get that mad, though, nobody can mow except you. Exactly. I like, see, she's got, that's wisdom right there. That's why. Other people mow. I will make sure he just wants it mowed at four because it's so hilly. And then I tend to shave a little dirt off on certain hills. And then he's like, well, now I got to sharpen the blades. I said, but I just shaved it off. So next time we can go to, you know, three and a quarter or whatever it is.

So we should be fine, right? I shaved it off. I think we could just kiss off the rest of this topic. We could just literally talk about this. And I could vent a lot just off of this. You got some pent up anger about Mowen here. We probably shouldn't. Yeah.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, where people can find out more about what you're doing? And we'll go big picture to start with, like what you're doing today, what your business is and what it's about. So I am obviously from North Dakota. I was raised on a farm ranch operation. My dad was a purebred breeder for 30 years and a charlay breeder. So what happened to the Charley market is crashed, right?

And so dispersed everything and then he just started farming. My brother came home. Well, he was farming anyway, but started farming more. My brother came home and so now they farm together, well, separate but together. How most people do it. And so when I heard about, I was introduced to the Infinite Banking concept in 2010. And when I heard about that concept, I knew immediately. like this is exactly what farmers need because they're so reliant on the banks.

Farmers told me I was a moron, didn't know what I was talking about, because I don't understand the numbers, yada, yada, yada. I'm like, well, then I'm going to write a book and make you read it and I'm not talking to you unless you read the book. And so hence how the book came about because I had no plans to write a book. I am not a writer. I did not do well in English. And so you hire people that do. This is why people with good grades are. That's how you get an A right there.

I was not the one with the good grades. Yeah. And so then I wrote farming without the bank, started helping farmers. The farmers are like, hey, my kid doesn't farm. Can you write a book for non-farmers? Not that it's any different. So I'm like, well, I suppose. So then I wrote life without the bank.

And here we are today, helping farmers and non-farmers get away from the banking system. Okay. So how do you get away? What's the infinite banking system? So the infinite banking concept is there's essentially two parts to it. One, it's a concept that a lot of people miss. It's a thought process about money that we are not taught. And so we really think about money that you have to have cash. You should buy everything with cash. There's a thought process out there that you go buy rental properties and passive income, passive income, passive income, right? and I know that Sawyer, you look at some of that stuff.

And when I was your age, I was all about Robert Kiyosaki and passive income. And I'm like, but where am I supposed to be making this money? Like, where does this compound interest come from? Where does that exist? And I could not find it. And so the other piece of the infinite banking concept is the whole life insurance that we can, we can use it to buy the rental properties, use it to buy the farm ground, use it to start businesses, but our money doesn't leave the account.

So we have the uninterrupted compound interest, and we get to go do all those other things. So it really becomes the and asset instead of the ore asset, which is what your 401Ks, IRAs, all those things are. What led you to that? Like, how did you, what was the process that you came and found this and were like that this is something? So ironically, somebody local was doing it. And he needed somebody to office, manage his office. And I was a PNC agent at the time. And I said, I hate life insurance.

I don't want anything to do with it, but how much you're going to pay me? And then he tried to explain it. And he just does a horrible job at it, which is why I'm not with him anymore. But he did just a horrible. I was like, what are you doing? Forex trading? Like, what are you doing? Because I had already, for years, I was reading Robert Kiyosaki,

penny stocks. Like I was all about money, right? I was going to make money. I was going to manage my money, but I just couldn't find like that thing. And so then he handed me Nelson Nash's book, becoming your own banker. And I went home and I read that. And I did not understand the back half of the book because it was all life insurance numbers. And I didn't understand illustrations. I didn't sell life insurance. I was not life insurance license because I hated it. I would give all the life insurance business to another agent in the office. Just so you didn't have to deal with it. Yeah, because I'm like, this is dumb. Why would I want life insurance? But the front of the book was all about the concept, Parkinson's law,

Willie Sutton's Law, like all the, and in the first page, maybe it's the second page of, it's the first page of Nelson's book, he talks about if you take all the money in the world and you divide it equally, within three short years, the rich will remain. rich and the poor will remain poor. And it will all just shift. And my dad and uncle would talk about that all the time. And I'm like, that's exactly what my dad and uncle talk about. That is so crazy. And so he had me because of the thought process aligned, but the numbers, I was like, I don't know what any of that means. And so it just, I found it at the, I just found it I was looking for, you know, just showed up. So you were working for, you were working for that guy.

And yeah, I lasted there six weeks. But then, so it's one thing, you found this and you were like, this is a great concept and I can make this work. But it's one thing to do something like that in your own personal life for what you're doing. What, like, what pushed you that you're like, I got to, I got to share this with the world? Because I just knew it was the thing. Like, so I'm just kind of a natural shareer of things. Like, I just kind of have a big mouth. And so if I'm excited about it, everybody's going to know. Like, everybody, you know, I mean, if you guys listen to my podcast, I'm like, oh my God, meat vending machines, rental properties, Airbnb is like, I'm sharing it all. Because I'm excited about it. People, I mean, I talked to hundreds of people a year. I talked to,

I think last year we had, I had 300 one-on-one meetings, but that's not including people that are emailing me or I'm going to a farm show or talk, doing a seminar or something, you know, when you hear what people are doing out there, like, like flower gardens, like things like that that are making money, all, everything excites me. And so I share it. So I, it was just not, I did not even leave the building. I was in the hallway out to the front door and I was already calling people and being like, have you heard about this? This is unbelievable. I don't know. I think they might be going to jail, but this is crazy. Because I really honestly thought these people were going to jail.

Because I had just done some 4X trading and that guy had just got thrown in prison. Oh, wow. For not having the securities and whatever. Did he actually, was he actually money laundering? Nah. I don't know. You know, when you find something that's successful, the government's going to come in and throw your ass in jail and then they'll just leave everybody else. They'll just leave Nancy Pelosi and all the others to do what.

they do illegally and it's okay. So was he actually doing anything illegal? I don't know. However, I had just like gotten out of that. And so I was like, there's no way that this is legal. So I immediately went to the secretary or the North Dakota insurance department's website. And on there it said cash value of life insurance can be used. And I was like, yeah. What? Still didn't believe it. Took my life insurance license and they had questions on the test about it. When you think of propane on the farm, the first thing that comes to mind might be an older propane tractor or a propane powered grain dryer. While 80% of grain dryers do run on propane, it could do much more than that. For irrigation engines, generators, water or building heating, flame weed systems, and yes, grain dryers,

propane is an incredibly versatile energy source. With propane, farmers can power a wide range of equipment to satisfy their operations and increase efficiency. By embracing propane, farmers are improving productivity while paving the way for a greener and more sustainable future in agriculture. For more information about propane's versatility and what it can do for your farm, visit propane.com or reach out to your local propane supplier for more information and assistance in selecting the right equipment for your farm. Now let's get back to the podcast. And I was like, this is insane. Like, you can really do this. it took me probably six months before I really was like this is a hundred percent legal and what happened

is I had shared it with a friend the friend's mother-in-law thought I was stealing all their money took Nelson's book to the insurance department the insurance department investigated me and they're like well are you doing this this and this and I didn't know what any of that stuff was and so now I know what to do illegally but I didn't know what any of that stuff was And they're like, yeah, you're good. Like, this is legit, man. I didn't get thrown in jail. This really is something that people can do.

And we just don't know about it. That's insane. It's like about everything with money. It's you're not taught anything about money in school. And they don't teach you about real estate. They don't teach you about anything. It's like, why? When money's so important people's lives,

why don't they teach us about it? It's like the most basic thing that every human being needs to know. But the education, gap of it, it's just insane. And it's the biggest thing that you guys as farmers and ranchers, it's the biggest piece of your operation is your finances, and that is the part that you probably pay the least amount of attention to. Instead, it's what are we feeding the pigs, how much weight gain do they have, right?

Every, how many, what are, how many bushels are we getting? But do you need the bushels if the money's there, if the marketing is behind it? if all of the other things are in place, it all comes down to the dollar. And that's not what we're paying attention to. I think the world decided a long time ago that they need consumers worse than they need people that are very smart about how they use their money. Yeah, they don't want that all the time. Yeah.

We like to have people that consume a lot, buy a lot, buy a lot, spend a lot, borrow a lot of money, pay a lot of money back. and then when it comes time, get old, lose all those assets to the state, and then don't live too long after that so that we can recycle it all to the next one. That was kind of just a snarky. But statistically, we don't live that long because we are worried about outliving our money. And so we have the added stress at retirement. And then, like, most people think that they're going to retire, which is quite funny.

I mean, like a millennial, you're going to need 30 million of tomorrow. morrow's dollars to retire on a hundred grand a year. Yeah. In today's dollars. It's insane. It's insane because like people look at, you know, everybody used to go, oh, millionaire.

If I can just get to a million, I'm set. I'm set. Not the case anymore. A million dollars, you're going to burn through that like nothing. Like nothing. We talked to a 52 year old a couple of months ago and he had sold the dairy and

he had about two million cash. And he's like, I'm just done. I'm retired. I said, what are you going to do with the money? And he's like, well, I'm just going to live off of it. Just going to save it and live off. I said, well, how much have you been living off of? Like, what's it going to cost you guys to live? I don't care if it's, let's just say it's $100,000 a year.

That's 20 years. You're not going to be dead in 20 years, but you're going to be out of money. So back to Walmart, I guess you go grading. Like, what, $2 million? That's nothing. Now you take 14% inflation off of that. And oh, they're going to get us back down to two. Okay, let's just average. it, even if we average it at four, you don't have enough money to get you 20 years. Truly, average at five. Like, I have a calculator that shows a difference between a 4% inflation and 5 when I'm looking at future requirements of what you're going to need. It's astronomical what 1% inflation will do over our lifetime, and people don't look at that.

And so my question, like, people will say, well, how much money am I going to have at 65 in my life insurance policy. Ultimately, I don't care. I want to know what kind of cash flow you're going to have at 65. Do you have rental properties? Do you have a business to sell? Do you have a farm to sell? What are we going to have coming in for cash flow? Because you're going to, this should supplement cash flow. This should not be the only option of, oh, I'm going to have a 401k. I'm going to have an IRA. I'll have an annuity. I'll have, okay. Did any of those financial advisors talk to you about inflation. Yep. Yep. And we're just coming out of a period of unprecedented low inflation. We're, you talk about, you know, 2% or 4%. What were the 70s? What was the decade of the 70s into

the early 80s? People would have, I mean, I remember, I remember getting, I remember getting a CD from my grandpa one year for Christmas when he sold his farm. And I think it was like 15% on that CD. I remember going to the bank and getting it, it was 15%. That was like in 79, 80, somewhere in there. And that was just, well, we had Rob Brennaman on here, and he was talking about his first operating loan. What was it?

I think he said 18%. 18%, maybe? Could be wrong, but it's crazy. But what you were talking about there, so I'm spending today, my mother, is in a retirement home, I'm spending $10,000 a month to keep her in that home. I'm 52. When I talk to people and they talk about same thing, you know, oh, if I can get, if I can get a million dollars saved up, if I can get $2 million saved up, I'm pretty sure that if I went to a home,

Sawyer might try to put me in a home tomorrow, but I'm hoping that he keeps this, I tell him I'm just going to move in his basement, but I don't know how long is it. You actually say that you're going to get swivel coozy on your mower. Yeah, that's my only real retirement plan is a swivel coozy and a better seat on the mower because that's how I'm going to make my money. But if I'm paying 10,000 now, what do you think it's going to cost you to keep your old man and your mom? Double. Oh, at least double. And you only got long-term care. Like I have a long-term care policy with an inflation rider on it. So when I, like today, if I end up in the nursing home today, it's going to pay 10 grand a month. Yep. But every year there's a 3% inflation right around. Yeah. And that's what you. It's not a cheap policy.

Yeah. By any, I mean, it was cheap when I bought it. Now they changed mortality tables and all that kind of stuff. So it's not necessarily cheap anymore. But I bought that thing four or five years ago. And because I, because statistics show most people under the age of 60, the average age is under 65 in the nursing home. So because it's a car accident. It's a, stroke, it's something that has put you in the nursing home prematurely. It's early onset Alzheimer's. It is not, the majority of people in the nursing home are not old. Malicious activity by a son or daughter. Right. Well, they don't have paid for the nursing home. If it's malicious activity, you're probably going to be dead, not end up in the nursing home.

Yeah. So that idea of like $2 million is just, it's a million dollars is pocket change. If you go to the nursing home, what is that? That's gone in years. Well, and regardless, it's sped up. Even if you're able, even if you're able, what people don't understand is that you're 100% right. The inflation, one, we have a devaluing dollar, which coupled with, you can look at it however you want. Inflation is a number, but it doesn't really matter because you're actually getting a dollar that, whether it's stated or not, and I believe the inflation number is actually misstated.

Oh, yeah. but you have a dollar that's worth less and less. So this nest egg of money that you have, you're getting a minimal return and your cost of living is going up every year, regardless of whether you're going to a home or not. So y'all better just keep work. I just think the whole idea of retirement,

and this might be a hot take, is just, I think it's overrated sometimes because people, when you shut your mind off and you stop going after something every day, your mind shuts off, your body shuts off. And I think that you die sooner. die faster when you don't have something you're going after. I'm not saying take it easy after 65 years of working, but have something that you're doing. I don't know. For me, and it's easy for me

to say right now, I'm 23, but I don't really want, I don't plan on ever retiring just because I think I love this so much, love the game so much, kind of like what you're saying about money and just figuring stuff out. But, I mean, you kind of have to be, like my age, like I feel like our generation, we're going to have to like either make a lot of money really, really soon or work a long time and just go at it continually. There's not going to be, there's no retirement for our age. I mean, I just turned 49 last week. There's no retirement for us. Yeah.

That's just like, and here's something that Nelson always said, the founder of the Infinite Banking concept, he said, where does it talk about retirement in the Bible? Right. Who retired in the Bible? They didn't. Nelson died. Nelson died in surgery, but the people that saw him prior to him going in for surgery, he was bitching about the Federal Reserve. Like he worked until the, you know, if they wouldn't have put him under, he'd have been telling the surgeons about infinite banking and the Federal Reserve and fractional reserve banking and, you know, Austrian economics and all of that. Like, that was his passion.

I might slow down. I mean, yeah. Good God. I don't know about you talk, but I'm getting tired. It's just, I don't have the energy I used to in my 30s. But I, like, I might slow down, but am I going to ever stop? Right. No.

I am constantly listening to podcasts, reading. And I, we just got done with, well, our Airbnb is like, so close to being done. And I'm like, I am so done with this stuff. Like, I am over it. And I said, I am not buying another rental property. and both of my assistant said yeah for two days yeah and then you're going to be bored out of your mind oh that is that is the thing about all that stuff is the high of the idea and making it happen big picture is the most exciting part and you get that you get that rush and then when the get down

of the gritty details that's when it gets mundane and you're like oh my gosh this is a drug out Yeah, you've got to hire people to do it, but still. And then you come across another deal and you're like, oh, this is good. This is the one. Yeah, this is a, I just turned one down a couple of weeks ago. I'm like, okay, nope, I can't do it. I just, oh, and my husband's like, why do you think you need to buy everything? I'm like, because it's such a deal.

I just can't. And he just doesn't care, you know, he just wants to relax and, I like relaxing too, but it is, it's hard to shut it off. Oh, it is. And when I see TikTok, oh, it's so bad because there's so many good ideas on there of what people are doing. And you just like, oh, I could do that and I could do that and we could do that. And I could help someone start that.

And I'm like, I just need people that want to work to do things. I'll just give you the money. You go start that. Yeah. And I just want to see it be successful, you know. It's exciting. In our family, my wife has an innate need for. safety. And she lives with three men now that have three hamsters running in a one hamster cage.

She only lives with you. But we're all together enough. And the usual, the usual meal, pre-meal talk at our house is, honey, tonight, can we just, can we just have a nice family meal? and not talk about business. Can we just, can we just, you know, I don't care. It never, it never works. And I will say, absolutely, honey. And then sometimes I even work hard and I'll call Sawyer and I'll say, Sawyer, tonight let's just not talk about Farmer Grade or the podcast or just nothing.

Okay, sounds good. And then Clay will show up and Clay will be like, I was in Muscatine today. And there's a guy selling a 16plex down there. And I ran the numbers on it. And I think we need to go look at it. And you could just look across the table at my wife. And it's like a wilting flower.

It's like, wamp, wamp, because, and then she just kind of just goes. What do you guys talk about? If you don't talk about that. So my family, like, to be honest, I'm bad. So putting me in your guys' mix would not help your situation at all. Because I'd be like, oh, my God, that's such a good idea. Let's go do this and this and this. And did you see this?

And it's funny because when I grew up, it was all, I mean, dad's pocket had a calculator in it all the time, right? He's sitting eating supper. He's calculating numbers about weight gain and what's this pasture going to rent. And him and my brother talked about that all the time. That was just a convert. That was a normal meal. And when I met my husband and they have a meal, your wife would love that meal. Yep.

Because it is the, what is the stupidest YouTube video? video you just saw. What is like what's the latest gun you bought? What's like none of this conversation is business. Nothing. Nothing fires you up. No. And I just sit there and think. I'm getting to the point where I, I'm, I need to check myself sometimes because I'm usually the one that brings it up. Because it's just what I'm passionate about. I'm just fired. I'm about it. And so sometimes I just got to be like, I think we do a good job with mom, though, and on those nights, we do the small talk for a little while. About 10, 15, maybe 20 minutes, and then one of us breaks the ice. And we're like, we got to get, we got to get something going here.

I got to get something passionate about. This is your life. Yeah. So it's what you're going to talk about. I have, it's funny. And in some of my meetings, probably more than not, I end up being a counselor. And so I had one meeting where the wife was just like she's on anxiety meds and she's just Like very very stressed about stuff right and him and I are like firing ideas back and forth

And she is just beside herself and I said honey here's the thing everything that comes out of his mouth does not mean he's going to do that Right my husband has learned that he just listens and he nods and he nods and And I don't even know if he's really listening or if he's just pretending to listen. But he knows like everything that I say is not going to come to fruition. Like I'm going to, you know, I'm going to actually think about it. But I'm super excited about it at the moment. So we're going to talk about it. Yeah.

Because I just saw this on TikTok, right? And there's like 10 more of them that showed up. And so he, he now knows, but he is not the business guy that starts businesses every five second. It's like, you give me a week off of work and I probably, like if I have a three day weekend, if I take Friday off by Sunday, I probably just started three new businesses in my head, you know, because there's so many opportunities. Every single thing I see is an opportunity. And for him, it's not. He is the, I call him my Debbie Downer, but he's actually the sanity. Like, you need them though. You got to do this and you're going to have to do this. And I'm like, well, shit, I never think about any of that. Yeah. You need those people, though. That's. It's the thing about it. You need those people to bring you back down to earth. You need them.

I think it's crazy that just, you know, because I think a lot of people don't talk about money at the dinner table just because for a long time it was demonized to talk about money, which is back to the point of we don't learn about money and then they want to tell us that money's the root of all evil and that you shouldn't talk about money. But how are you going to learn from other people and how they're making money or what they're doing or how to get ahead.

What doesn't work? Yeah. How are you going to learn? anything if you don't talk about money to other people. And wealthy people love to talk about money. Yeah. And so people think, oh, that person is rich. I'm not going to ask them anything about how they got there, what they did because they're

snobs because they're rich. When in fact, the majority, some of them are, right? But the majority of them are so excited that you asked, they will tell you anything you want to know. So to feel comfortable. And I have kind of, you know, I've paid attention since I've been in this industry. people will talk to a complete stranger about their sex life before they will talk about money. And I'm like, that is so backwards.

Like, yeah. That is pathetic, actually. Like, I am not going to talk to anybody about my sex life. That is between my husband and I. That is not between freaking strangers. But if you want to ask me about how to make money and how much money I make and, oh, by all means, come on in. Yeah. Like, this is, that is what wealthy people do.

That's why they're wealthy. We could have just, this is just like a cheerleader. This is great. I love this shit. I'm getting fired up right now. Yeah, we got to get into the nitty-gritty. So a question is, a person that is farming today, whatever you're into, cattle, hogs, grain, typical guy, you've got a chunk of ground, you've got a chunk of ground that's paid for, but then you're renting ground, you've got machinery loans. You may own some machinery, you may, but you've got a relationship with the bank. You got an operating loan. You probably have a real estate loan, probably have a term loan on some equipment, and you're feeling it because something that's changed

over the last few years, and we're through a little bit of that, but, you know, there were a hell of a lot of people that had huge operating loans, and they just kept rolling them because interest was so cheap, and we rolled equipment. We were trading. There were guys that were literally trading equipment, every year and they really never made a payment on it because they would set it up for annual payments and then when they got to the end when they got to the end of the note they traded it because it was basically zero percent interest and then we got interest and rates on operating loans started climbing rates on real estate started climbing okay and you're like hyperventilating where do you start if you're somebody in that situation

and you know nothing about infinite banking, like what's the first steps when you meet with somebody or somebody calls you, how do I start? We do, I do an hour and a half meeting with everybody so I can see their numbers. And when I look at your numbers, I can see, I mean, I'm not asking for a lot of numbers. I'm asking for loans. What are your, how much do you owe on what and what your payments, what is your gross income? What is your operating expenses or total expenses? Those three things, I can see exactly what's going on. If we are in the red and we're spending more than we have gross income, why? Right? And then if we have, especially if people with cattle, if I see a land note, a cattle note and other loans, oh man, we're going backwards the second

that cattle market falls. You don't do land notes and cattle. notes at the same time. Like that is asking for a disaster. But the biggest problem is we're buying stuff to avoid taxes. And so I truly believe that if we have, if interest rates stay for the next year or two, we're going to have a crisis of the 80s because we had guys with massive operating notes. And it's going to be the guys with operating notes. And so people like, people like my brother think I'm, I don't know what I'm talking about. But he thinks everybody operates like. him. No. Like, he doesn't have an operating note, right? So you're one of the few. Most people will have an operating note. They're going to have land notes. They're going to have equipment notes.

And when our operating, most people's operating right now is nine to nine and a half is what I've seen. So when you can't make operating this year, if corn prices fall, if any, if there's one little glitch, if somebody gets hailed out, droughted out, whatever, one little glitch and you have a nine and a half percent two million dollar operating note and you still have the tractor payment from when times were good the combine payment all the other stuff we're not going to make those payments something's going to have to give and keep your short keep your short term notes that are low interest rates but we have to try to get that away from either the operating or we have to try to get away from those short term notes and get those paid off and stop buying crap like we don't do we need a new

and I don't mean don't ever buy anything new again. But if we have a seven-year payment or a five-year payment on a combine, do we need a new combine at five years? Or can we build our own bank long enough that when we need the combine, we have a majority of the money ourselves that we can use to buy it and we can borrow our money to do that? Can we slowly build our own system with some income? So let's say that we do have some extra income. Go pay your taxes. And let's just say if you're going to pay, if you save 20% tax bracket, so maybe you got to spend $100,000 to save $20.

Okay. Well, you spent $100 and you created a payment with it. What if you could have just paid the $20 to the IRS, kept the $80 and used that for operating next year? And borrowed $80,000 less from the bills. bank. So it depends what size operation it is. If there's small operations, they're like, oh my gosh, Mary Jo, you're the best thing ever. If it's a big operation, I'm an idiot. Because I need $3 million. I need $2 million and you can't get that for me fast enough. Oh, because you actually

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You're building this system just like you're going to build the farming operation, right? You don't, you don't start with five hog barns. You start with one. Yep. And then you build them as they go. But even on the hog side, like my hog barn guys make a lot of money. The nurseries, holy, that's even more. So if you've got one hog barn that's paid for, well, that hog barn payment was probably close to 100 grand a year. What are you doing with that $100,000 now after 10 years of that being paid off? Oh, well, we'll just go spend it. If we don't put it anywhere and continue to save it and use that $100,000 to build, in 10 years we'd have a million dollars we could borrow against and we wouldn't have to go to the bank.

Yeah. So it's a matter of what are you doing? How are you handling money? What's going on with the transition? Holy cow. That's where the counseling comes in, right? Because a lot of times it's a transition issue. If grandpa maybe still owns it, but the grandkid is farming it,

like there's just such a big picture there. It's hard to say everybody is done this way. Yep. So everybody's a little bit different on how the advice, but everybody's the same. on the family drama and the shit show. What's going on? We've talked about that before,

because we get a lot of questions when we do our Q&A, we get a lot of questions about younger generation, you know, wanting to get started farming or want to do something to benefit the operation and trying to get started. But the older generation, it's a control thing. Like they build it and they want to keep it. And I'm not a very good person for that because my theory,

so my dad was 99 years old when he passed. And he pretty much owned everything on the farming side. I started building hog buildings 15 years ago, whatever. And, but he was that generation where he wanted to make the decisions. He never wanted to like, rent ground to me and have me own it and work my way into it. And I was fine with that because I was doing whatever. If the farm would have been my sole income, it probably would have been one of those shit shows. But the one thing that taught me was, and what I tell Sawyer and his brother is

like, I don't really, I'm 52. And as we grow our farm, I don't really want to buy anything. Because why should I buy it? And then have to worry. about how you're going to get it, you guys just buy it. And then I'll use your crap for free. They can go to FSA for 2% and buy it. Yeah. Right. But it's a pride factor. Yeah. And so you have to be a big person to as a Gen Xer, you have to be a big person to say, I never own that. It went from grandpa to the grandkid. And I never own that and I'm okay with that. Like that can't go unrecognized. because I have a client that actually did that. And we had to talk through that.

Like the dad was totally okay with it. And the mom had like, she was like, but we never owned it. And we had to talk through that. She had to deal with that emotion because it's a big emotion. Now, here's the other thing. You don't have to be dead for Sawyer to get it.

For the love of Pete, owner finance him or lease to own or something. And if you owner finance the next generation and charge them 5% interest, yes, you charge your kids five to 7% interest. You don't give it to them for free. You pay less in capital gains. You double your money.

And guess who gets it back when you die? Soyer. So he's paying for his own inheritance. Like this is not rocket science, but we are so worried about screwing the IRS. and not giving them any money that we try not to make any money. And then we bitch that we don't get any social security. Like, it's just this evil cycle.

And it's all thought process. It's all what the attorneys and the accountants have told us and the bankers have told us to believe. Right? And so it's the rewinding of that. But we don't have to wait. Dad didn't have to wait until for you to get your step-up basis. Yeah.

Like, that's great. fantastic, but you had nothing for collateral to build upon. So you had to wait till dad was gone to start building. And by you giving Sawyer the opportunity, Sawyer gets to build. And then the neighbors go, well, gee, how come they're doing so well? Because they're not going to wait till Torque is dead. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's the thing about it is most farmers are legacy driven. They just can't get that ego out. They just can't get the ego out of it. It's a real thing. Like they want most farmers, I think they want the next. generation to come in and take it over, but they want to make sure that they earn it. And like what you were saying there, you can still make sure that they earn it and pay interest. You know, they're earning it. And they got to obviously put in the work and put in the value

into the operation. But back to what dad was saying there, like, we had a question on here that was just asking about this kid. I kind of wanted to start farming on his own because it seemed like his dad, I don't know, wasn't going to maybe involve him as much. And we always had the commitment, like, and I'm lucky, I'm fortunate to have a dad like this. If you can work as a team from the start, from the jump. Like, obviously the younger generation has to put in the work, provide value. Older generation has to get out of their own way and let the younger generation come in. But like, back to the wealthiest families in America in history, they work as a team. Families work as a team. There's a reason that families are wealthy because they all bring their expertise in. They stick

together. They leave their ego out of it. And they build together. And they have a, they have this, not this self-ego. They leave their ego at the door. And they're not trying to screw anybody over either because it's family. And that's hard. But if you can do that, you can go a lot further than just by yourself, you know? Oh, 100%. And the, but the older generation has to understand that.

And then they don't have faith in the younger generation, but you raised them. Yeah. I mean, if. Well, that's why, that's why I don't have that much faith in. I know that I'm the one that raised you like there's no way this is going to turn out good sorry you know it's it is there's so there's a lot there to unpack but it is all at the end of the day it's all emotionally driven and that you know and that's where your jolline browns come in to come in and say because i don't do family mediation like that is not my thing but that's where

people like her need to be brought into the situation. I mean, I had a guy last week and my podcast on Friday will be about this that I don't, I don't often tell people to leave, but I'm like, you need to get out because you're getting screwed. The non-family members are attorneys. They're going to try to take it. Why are you still there being a dormant? I'm like, get out. And if you're going to stay in work, then stay in work, but you better be building on the side. Right. I mean, my dad is not handing anything to my brother. We are going to have to wait until they are dead. They don't, they don't want to give that up for whatever reason. There's not a sale. There's whatever. But my brother didn't sit and wait. He farms far more acreage than my dad, like four times what my dad farms.

And it's because he didn't sit and wait. Yeah. Did he get to share the equipment? Yes. Did he get to, it? Is he buying his own equipment now? Yeah, like everything is kind, not everything at this point because dad is 77, but for the long time, everything was 50-50. But I slept fine at night. And my brother is sitting there like, oh, my God, what happens if dad dies? Are those other two kids going to want, do I have to buy my 50? Like, we don't even have a spreadsheet showing what my 50 was.

Who's going to try to screw me out of all of this? And am I going to have to buy it back? and he's there taking care of them every day. You know, like I don't, I understand that as the non-farm kid, that dad has a knee replacement. Oh, he's the one that has to go haul him up the stairs and take him to appointments if necessary. And, you know, one night the fuse, there was a fire in the electrical box.

Well, guess who had to go down and, because they live in the same yard, guess who had to go down and fix that? Not me. Right. Yep. I didn't have to get up at 2 o'clock. in the morning or whatever it was. Like, I just don't, like, I have massive respect for my brother that's at home.

And I see, like, there needs to be the transition, but I can understand the older generation side too. Right. And so we have, the older generation thinks everybody younger wants it. You know, my mom said to me one time, I don't know why you kids think you have to tell us what to do with our money, because we wanted them to do some estate planning. So we were pushing pretty heavy. And I said, mom, I don't care.

I don't want your money. It's not your money. But I'll tell you right now, I'm selling your ground to pay for the attorney fees. So I don't understand why you get up every day to save this when I'm going to sell it. Because I have to pay for attorney fees. She's like, oh, go visit the attorney because probate is going to be more expensive than that estate attorney. That's right. So you get a client, he comes to you, whatever, got his finances, you look over the numbers.

How do you start down the road of like actually taking the steps of doing the infinite banking system, banking for yourself? How do you go about doing it? So we just get a policy. I mean, it sounds simple in my brain, I suppose. But it is, if you come to me, I might say, you know what, like in your guys' situation, of course I don't know it. but I know just what I hear. Right. So in your situation, Sawyer, if you come to me and you don't, I'm going to say, okay, is, does

dad have life insurance? Does dad have long-term care? What's the transition plan? Because you're super young. You're only 23. You need to be buying life insurance on dad. But what are your financials? Oh, well, if you don't really have any income coming in, because not every 23-year-old does.

I have 23-year-olds that have policies that are $4,000 a year. and I have 20-year-olds that have policies that are $20,000 a year, right? So it's going to depend on the financials, but maybe we need to be buying a policy on dad because he's too stubborn to even come see me. But if he comes to see me, then we don't need to have plan B for you because you have plan A. Right.

Right. So we've got everything, so you're going to buy the policy. The death benefit's going to go to you so you can expand the farm. You can use it for operating, whatever that might be. but once we figure out how much premium you can pay, that's when we start that process. We get the policy and then I'm going to help you work through the strategies of when to use it, when not to use it, when to use cash, when to go to the bank, when to use your life insurance policy. So life insurance, that whole life insurance, it just compounds.

That's kind of the deal. It compounds. It's dividend pain whole life. It's not universal, not variable universal, not indexed universal. Yeah. Don't even get me. I'm just trying to. Don't even get me on that rant.

Yeah. But it is, it's dividend paying a whole life. So when you borrow against it, you're using your cash value as collateral. And the bank is giving you their money. Yeah. So let's go back to your CD example.

Back in the day, you would have a, you used to go to the bank and borrow against a CD. Yes. Nelson actually has that example in his book. Yeah. Because interest rates were high, right? Yeah.

So you would go to the bank and go to the banker and say, hey, I got this $100,000 CD. Can I just use it as collateral? So your CD's maybe making you 10%, but the bank is charging you 12% interest. Yeah. So you go, oh, that's only a 2% difference. That's not so bad. Well, the difference is the CD, who got who or when you took the bank loan, who got the profits from the bank, the owners of the bank, right?

When you borrow against a life insurance policy and it's a mutual company, who gets the owners, who gets the profit of the company? You do. We do as owners. So the dividend gets to be astronomical. And that becomes a very important piece. But the money never leaves the account. So you always have that guaranteed interest that the policy is earning. And you can reinvest the dividend to continue to build it up if you want.

Yes, the dividend goes back into the policy. Okay. And then you could also add money to it. to continue to grow it as years go on. Or you just buy it. Or no. Or you just buy another policy. Because if you add money to it, it becomes a modified endowment contract and it grows taxable. So everything inside the policy is going to grow income tax free as long as you stay underneath the MEC guideline.

Gotcha. When you started talking about your different types, I had a flashback. One of your favorite movie scenes has got to be that scene out of Groundhog Day where he meets the insurance man on the corner. and he's like, Ned, Ned Ryerson? And he's like, oh, let me tell you about this guy. He bought whole life, term life, auto, pet insurance, da, da, da. Like, he, and he's the stereotypical insurance salesman, you know.

That's like his favorite, one of your favorite movies. You love that movie. Well, it's just played so well because, you know, the way he rattles that off, everybody has, everybody has had an experience with somebody in some form of insurance that is that kind of Mr. Uber positive, you know, hey, how's it going? Let me tell you what I could do for you today. And then within the infinite banking world, within the Nelson Nash Institute, so there is a, Nelson just taught anybody and everybody infinite banking. And then what happened is these agencies, came and said, oh, we'll sell you universal life, variable universal life, indexed, and it's all

going to be based on rates of return. Well, Nelson was an Austrian economist. He hates the bank. He hates Federal Reserve. He does not believe in, I mean, I have a whole chapter in the book, 401k scam. I do not believe. Like, you are, you are with the IRA, a 401k, you are in bed with the government. They are controlling our stock market. And you think that's going to turn out well? Like, you can't tell me you hate the government and then have a 401k at the same time because you're in bed with them. So anyway, all these people were teaching infinite banking using the wrong product. And so we created, Nelson created the Nelson Nash Institute. So now there are certified practitioners, and I'm on the council for the Nelson Nash Institute at the moment,

but there are certified practitioners that we have to get certified to teach IBC. the Nelson Nashway. So we are teaching the Austrian economy, the Austrian economics piece of it. We're teaching whole life. We're teaching about the concept. Parkinson's Law. Willie Sutton's Law.

You know, the tail win, the headwind. Like all that stuff is in Nelson's book for a reason? Because it's the thought process. Yeah. He was a huge Zig Ziglar fan. A huge, like everything for Nelson, the more I would talk to him and get to know him like that's exactly what zig ziggler says that's like from win friends and influence people

and he would listen to all that stuff and so people try to to base it on rates of return and it's about liquidity control and guarantees it's not about a rate of return because you can use that money to buy that Airbnb to start that other business to buy rental properties i don't care lend it to other people give it to nonprofits. Who cares? But it's liquid for you to use today. You don't have to wait till you're 59. So, you know, I, there's a lot of people out there that I think, and it's kind of what you are alluding to. Like, there's a lot of people trying to sell whole life insurance that don't have any, they don't know the, they're trying to sell it to anybody and everybody. So is whole life for everybody and anybody? Like, or is it for people that want to buy assets, want to go out and grow, like a farming

operation, a business, a wealthy family that wants to, like, is it for everybody? Who is it not for? Who's it not for? Yeah, that's kind of what I'm trying to ask. If you have money, it's for you. Yeah. You have to know how to manage your money. Yeah. The infinite banking concept, whole life is for everybody. I can sell you a traditional whole life policy for a little amount of money. I'm going to sell you an IBC policy and because I'm putting more money to cash value, it's going to look more expensive. Right? but that's because we're putting three times that amount into cash value. So when you talk to somebody from your typical insurance companies,

I'm not going to name them, but if you talk to somebody from a typical insurance company, they can't do what I do because not every whole life company allows you to put money into the paid up additions writer. And so it's interesting that I have these companies that buy my book and the agents are giving the book out. And then I see the policies and I'm like, that's not an infinite banking policy.

That's just straight up whole life. And so the biggest complaint about whole life is, oh, it's expensive. Right. So you don't think it is for everybody because, oh my gosh, you're only 23 years old. You can't afford whole life. You need to buy some term. Well, I sell a lot of term because there are people that can't afford it.

But it's because their thought process is broken. And so when we fix the thought process, they're going to come back in a year or two. they're going to have money because they're going to have understood and learned everything that you've learned that you didn't learn in school, right? So now they have money and we can start that policy. But is it more expensive? No. Like I broke that down in the book. Per dollar or death benefit, term is more expensive because you're, you can't get it. It doesn't go until you're 121 years old. You're going to outlive the term. I had a guy last week that was sitting in the background he didn't want to

on camera during our meeting, you know. So the kid had mom and dad in against their will. And the mom was super nice, but the dad was like, yeah, I don't know. I'm fine right here. I was like, oh, this can go good. Like, and so he's like, you know, I can see how maybe this could be valuable, but it's just going to be more expensive. My estate planner told me to buy term. And I said, oh, okay. I said so, and he was like 65ish, I think. And I said, oh, so are you going to be dead by 80? Well, I don't know. I said, oh, does your estate planner know if you're going to be dead by 80? He's like, well, no. I said, but the term runs out at 80. So why are you going to pay money into something that, and you know you're going to die in the next 20 years? Why are you going to put money

into that? And it's going to be astronomically expensive right now. So if I take, if you look at that and go, okay, well, term only goes to 80, 85. Well, what happens when you live past 85? your dad lived to 99. You're not going to die, most likely, before 90, 95 years old. Unless I'm hit by a shovel. Yeah. Take a nasty fall. Why don't we have it?

I mean, all these people are living past 100. And their whole life policies are actually getting paid out to them because they're outliving their whole life policies. So the thought process of, is it for everybody? Yeah. In my opinion, it is. And not just because I sell it. but because you're why would we not build something that has some cash value in it only 2% of term policies ever pay out really people think people think well life insurance companies make money on whole life no they make

money on term because you pay all that money in and you don't die in that term less than 2% of whole life policies pay out that's that's a I've never heard that statistic that's amazing so I can sell term all day long and make more money than I make whole life. So what are the risks with it? Or what are the potential downsides of it potentially? You know, there's people out there to be like, well, this all sounds great, Mary, but there's got to be some shit to this, to this. There's got to be something, some downside, some risk with it. What can go wrong potentially? So the life insurance company could go under. Yep. Okay. More banks have gone under than life insurance companies. I mean, you're talking companies that are 150 to 200 years old, older than the Federal Reserve.

So not a ton of risk. Typically, they get bought out. The company can demutualize. That happened to last year. There's a lot that happened during COVID. Last year or the year before, one of the big companies, mutual companies, demutualized,

but it's because their CEO didn't run the company correctly. So if you're going to, you have a company, you need to look at their financials. And what are they doing? And who's running the company? And what are they selling? And are they making good moves or bad moves?

What's going on? Just like if you were going to go to a bank. Yep. Or invest in a stock. or whatever. Yep. And then the biggest thing, the biggest reason this is going to fail is because you're a shitty banker and you borrow money from your policy and you never pay it back or interest. If you don't use it, Nelson has a whole chapter in the book. Use it or lose it. And I have that chapter in my book. If you don't use it, if you don't understand, it's not free money. It is a banking

policy. And so sometimes I'll have people come in and be like, oh my God, this is the best thing ever. Oh, there is no way that this cannot work. I'm going to put a hundred grand a year into that thing. And I'm like, oh, hold up. You are going to put 100,000 in and borrow 100. So now you have to pay back 100 and you have $100,000 premium next year. That's $200,000. Where is that coming from?

I don't see that in your numbers. So understanding, really understanding how it works and making sure that you have a practitioner helping you, that understands, right? And understands farming. Like, it's amazing how many farmers I talk to that already have policies. And I'm like, where is that money coming from? They're like, well, that's what the agent said. They just said it should be 10% of my income.

I said, you're a farmer. You're not an employee. 10% of what income? You know, I have colleagues that were like, Mary Jo, we want to work with farmers. We got this wealthy rancher. and we oh my god he's making so much money i'm like really what's he do oh he's got a construction business on the side so the cows are a right off right but these two don't know like i'm like do you

guys even know the difference between a cow and a bull like did you know that was a bull in the corral when you went they have no clue like none and i said and he said to me well what's their profit margin what are these farmers profit margins i said they don't have a profit margin what are you talking about. He goes, you know, a profit margin, Mary Jo. Like, if I have a store, there's a profit margin. I said, there is not a profit margin. I said, they could make 100% profit one year and they could lose 100% profit one year. He's like, why do you work with them? Because I love them. But you have to understand how their money comes in and how their money goes out and the family dynamics of all of it. Like, it's not just, oh, well, what's your profit?

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How? Did you blam? No. The Devil Wears Prada, too. He's the movie event 20 years in the making. Honestly, can't with the secrets anymore, so I think we just should tell her. Will you two please spit it out already? This Friday, be the first to experience it only in theaters.

In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. Oh, because we're a team now? That's a nice story. The Devil Wears Prada. too in theaters friday well to your what you were just talking about there i think another and i think farmers are very business owners in general farmers specifically are guilty of this in well i guess i shouldn't put everybody in that box but i know i do this and i feel like a lot of people do so you know i'm a list maker and if it's on my radar that i'm like okay i need to a state plan i need to

to get this insurance thing figured out let's get that figured out we meet you know this is the polish you need get that set up check it off i'm good to go i don't need to do anything i'm good i'm done you are 90% of my clients but that's not part of the part of making it work is it there's maintenance to it in other words like you have to you have to you have to plan and you have to use it and you have to like stay in touch with the person that you bought it from and and like it's a plan that you have to work on well it's just check you need to look at your financials right i can sell you a policy and great fantastic but my best clients are listening to my podcasts reading everything they can about infinite banking constantly being educated about

finances and so they look at their books and they have extra money first thing they should think about is, can I start a new policy with that? So then they call, can I start a new policy? What does that look like? And they're looking out for five years. They've got their projections, right? They're not just doing what needs to be done today. Those people are constantly starting more policies and creating more banks. And so using the policy, yes, there's work there. Like you can't just check that off. You have to borrow and then you have to amortize it back. If it's a operating, note you want to pay it back in 12 months. If it's a tractor, if it's a hog barn, you might want to go

five years, ten years, amortize it out, put it in your books. It's a matter of bookkeeping. And so if you come to me and you already have quick books and you already know your books, this is a no-brainer. It's the people that have to start the books, start the policy. Like that's a much harder process. It's not impossible, but it's harder. because you have to then do some work. I think that's a great point that I don't think people might understand is. So if you are at the point that you're doing this, that you have cash value in your policies

and you're going to borrow money against that to buy something, the term at which you pay it back, that's entirely up to you. You can decide, I want, like you said, I'm going to run this as an operating loan and I'm going to borrow $100,000. I'll use small numbers. And I'm going to pay it back in 12 months. And also, you can pay it, I'm assuming you can pay this back lump sum or you can pay it back in a monthly.

However you want to. I just randomly send checks in. Yeah. But if you want to buy a piece of real estate, you may do it over 10 years. You may do it over 15 years. You may do it over 20 years. Yeah. I bought our rental property with it, our Airbnb,

and I couldn't find a contractor over the winter, and the winter was terrible. So I didn't do anything with it. I just let it set. I have yet to pay interest or pay the principal on that loan. I'm just waiting for this thing to get rented, and then I'll start making the payments back. But nobody's bugging me about it.

Because it's your money. If I die, the death benefit clears out the loan. Yep. So nobody cares. How did I start my business? I took my 401k, cashed it out, put it into a life insurance policy, borrowed against the cash value, started my business. And let me tell you, it takes me three to four months to get paid from somebody's life insurance policy. Right.

I didn't have the money. If I would have went to the SBA, I didn't have the money. So they'd have been knocking on the door, hey, where's your payment? I'd have been like, well, I didn't even get paid yet. And so I just paid it back when I could. And I had the luxury to do that. If you have cattle and you're building, let's say you're holding over heifers,

well, those heifers are not going to produce for two years. And so great, borrow the cash value and then pay it back when you can. When your herd is built. I had a client that had a $90,000 loan for nine years, he paid interest only for nine years. And then the bank was paid off. And then he started paying himself back.

I care is that you pay the interest only. This is what a lot of people in this whole infinite banking world do not tell you is that the interest on those policy loans will compound from year to year. Oh, sure. So you need to pay the interest only. So if it's an interest only loan, who cares? Like, I didn't pay interest on some of my policies that renewed from buying our rental. But it's one year.

Like, that's not going to be the death of the policy. But 10 years is going to be the death of your policy. Right. And so you are your biggest risk, not understanding it. And so when we have people taking policy loans, like, I actually emailed one the other day. And I'm like, so I hear you're taking a lot of policy loans, but are you paying that back? Because we can't see online if they're paying it back or not. And she's like, yeah, I'm paying it back.

I'm like, okay, good to go. Keep doing what you're doing. And she takes loans and pays them. It's like constantly taking loans and paying it back. Oh, yeah, a lot of short term. Lots of in and out because she and they don't, well, her husband farms, but she's not farming. I don't know what she's using it for. And it's none of my business.

Nobody asks you. You fill out the paperwork for the money. They ach it to your account and you have it in five days, right? How many mutual companies are there that are issuing policies? There are probably about five or six that are infinite banking type policy. There's more mutual companies in that, but they're not all set up for infinite banking. And I did want to mention to your comment, you said, when I have money in there to borrow, you have money in 10 days.

Like with the company I use, we're borrowing money in 10 days because 75% of your premium is going directly to cash value. 10 days later, we're borrowing that and using it for whatever. What company do you use? What's the best out there? I use One America is the company that I prefer for farmers, because, they're more flexible with their premiums. Their CEO is amazing and they're extremely conservative company financially. That's the company that I'm using. There's other companies out there that I do write with, but they're not nearly as flexible. And so when we're talking about

the paid up additions rider, there's a minimum that has to be paid into that rider to keep it active. Some companies will do like a three-year average or they'll average seven years of what you paid for the first seven years. Well, that does not work for a farmer. You could have seven bad years and then you could have five really good years. And so one America doesn't do that. They don't average all that stuff. So when you, if you're, how do I want to say this? Okay, so you decide that you want to purchase a $100,000 policy. Premium. Because I'm not selling death benefit. So you come to me and say I want $100,000 premium. Whatever death benefit that buys, that buys. Right. But that's the amount you're going to have cash in hand to buy that premium amount. And so that cash value is

available 10 days. That's not necessarily the death benefit. So the death benefit. So the death benefit, like on a 52-year-old $100,000 policy a year, I just ran this before I left. It was, you're going to probably have a death benefit of $1.2 million, something like that. Okay, I got you. Yeah, so that's, and you said $75, if you put in $100. You put in $100, you'll have access to about $75. It'd probably be somewhere like $73, $74. Because they hold interest in advance.

Oh, yeah. So insurance companies always take their interest first. And then when you pay it back, they prorate it back to you. Gotcha. Yeah, this is, I'm pretty novice at this. You know, I don't know. It's kind of like equity. When I figured out, when my brother and I, when we started doing real estate investing,

and you realize that you can do, you build up this equity, that's a magical thing called equity. And when interest rates are low and you build up this equity, you can do a cash out refi and take that equity and put it on another property and have a little lower down payment. Or if you got enough equity, you can put it. it all on there on a property and if it cash flows you're you're going you got a property with no money down when you figure out that kind of shit it's like wow you can really figure out how to use your

money more effectively and leverage it better this is kind of one of those things right um and it's just cool why does it but why is it so unknown why is there so few people well i shouldn't say that because it may be much more known and used than what we hear about but you are literally So I ran on to you, I think I literally ran on to you off of a TikTok video randomly. It was the first time I'd ever heard that. Now, I've had Southwest Mutual Life Insurance call me when I, you know, every little town has agents and they always are hiring new younger agents because every generation of kids that graduate high school get married, going to have kids, and guess what?

Oh, you need life insurance. I want to talk to you about whole life insurance, but it's not the same. Why is, why does so few people talk about this? Or why is it so unknown, do you think? I think it's because of by-term and invest the difference. And in the 80s, so if we really look back, 74 IRAs were born. And so now we've got everybody getting into the stock market, right? I mean, I was born in 74.

And so when you have, when you have four, 401Ks and IRAs just starting. Businesses, remember that back in the day when, oh, we're going to work for a company and they're going to provide our retirement. Yes. Those were annuities. The company took the risk and said, we're going to have money for you to have an annuity. Okay?

It's going to pay out for your entire life. 74 and 80, IRAs and 401Ks came in, and the risk moved from the employer to the employee. And now you have to take care of your own retirement. Well, nobody was in the stock market, only the wealthy. So what happened to the stock market? It did this. And so my grandparents died. They retired from farming on the high and they died before the low.

We still think that this high, the Dave Ramsey's, I call him Dave the Dipstick, the Dave Ramsey's of the world, are still talking about those highs. And those highs don't exist. When you look at an average, average rate of return and actual rate of return are not the same, right? So we are feeding. We were fed that. Our kids are fed that. So you were by sixth grade, you were probably trading stock.

I mean, I taught junior achievement to junior high kids. They were trading stock in sixth grade. So I have this junior achievement chart, and I wrote, like, it had all sources of income, you know, or investments. and I wrote whole life. I didn't get us back to teach. So the thing is is we're not, the life insurance companies

said, oh, well, geez, now everybody's going to the market. So let's create this universal life based on a rate of return. Well, that sucks. Let's create variable universal life. Well, that's even worse. So let's create indexed universal life.

Well, that shit's going to collapse even faster than ULs. And so it just keeps getting worse. But we keep getting fed rate of return. Yeah. Well, in whole life, everybody asks me, what's the rate of return? I'm like, there is no, it's guaranteed. It's going to go up every year, but there's no set rate of return. It's a formula. Yeah. Well, I need a no rate of return. Then this product isn't for you. That's who it's not for. Yeah. If you want a rate of return, it's not for you. Did you ask what the rate of return is when that rental property you bought? No. No, you asked what the cash flow was. Yep. All I care about is what kind of money do I have liquid so I can go buy things that create cash flow. Yep. Yep. Because I just want to create more cash flow. but I want my money earning something and dividends. And then nobody knows what a dividend is because we don't talk about a dividend.

But yet you can go to the S&P and get a dividend. Right. But nobody's in the S&P with dividends because nobody talks about the S&P with dividends. That's not sexy anymore. Right. So I think it's a matter of life insurance companies suck at trying to sell their own product. So they've come up with other products. And then you have financial advisors who are just taught to talk about rates of retirement.

turn and hang in there because it'll all come back. And so we've lost it. Because when I talk to people, when they read the book, they're like, oh my God, this just makes complete sense. Why would I not know about this? I think for me, the chart that like broke my whole worldview when it came to the stock market was when the first time I saw a chart of the money supply, the amount of money being printed and the stock market. And you just saw, we literally, one, we sold everybody the idea that you need a 401k and IRA,

so you sent a whole generation of people into the stock market that weren't. And then we inflated the stock market because we just printed money and printed money and printed money. And that's what we've done for the last 20 years. Yep. However, now we're at a point where

I shouldn't say we can't because given our government's ability to not necessarily use logic, I guess we could keep printing money, although we're trying, the Fed's trying hard not to print money. They're sucking liquidity out, but that's not to say they wouldn't go back to print money. But unless we're able to print the quantity of money that we have over the last 20 years, I don't think there's anybody that can look at that and say, oh yeah, stocks are going to just keep going to keep going. And that was when I was like, well, it shows that if you take all the inflation and all the money they printed out of it, the return is like nothing. Yes.

They always tell you 1012 percent, 1012 percent on the S&P. That's what you're guaranteed. Over when? Year after year. Oh, yeah, that's what they say. I got a calculator for that too. If I go back to 1901, your actual rate of return is 4%. If I go back 20 years, it's five, I just ran it the other day.

I think it's 5.6 or something like that. And so it's funny because these people that are selling indexed ULs for life insurance, they're like, oh, it's a 6% rate of return. Well, that's wonderful. I mean, I saw one the other day. I said, you lost $600 in your IUL. I said, you didn't even get any money because the market crashed. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's great.

Because then you're not going to lose money in the IUL. Like a variable universal life, you'll lose money in an IUL. you're just going to get zero. No, zero minus the fees to manage the policy. So now this guy actually lasts $600. He forwarded me what his agent said, and his agent said, oh, hang in there. It'll get better. You're in it for the long run. No, what I'm in for the long run is cash flow. How many properties can I have? How many farms can I have? How many businesses can I be ventures in? What can I do to create cash flow. And that's what that's the thing.

That's what the wealthy do. I mean, that is what wealthy people are focusing on. And wealthy people have whole life insurance. What do the Rockefellers do? They buy life insurance on everybody in their family. When they die, that death benefit goes back into the estate. You can borrow money from the Rock.

The Rockefellers as a family will allow each other to borrow money, but only if you come to family meetings. If you're not at the family meeting, you don't get to borrow money. But we don't understand the benefit of the death benefit. If I sold you a policy today at 52 years old, you're going to be at about 40 cents for every dollar a death benefit. That's going to go to Sawyer, income tax free. Not estate tax free, but income tax free. You could go buy a policy on yourself if you're a,

in your 50s, and it's going to be probably another 35 cents on the dollar, 40 cents on the dollar. And so if we've, and I have this on my website. If you go to Farman Withoutthebank.com, generational wealth. There's a whole video. If we continue to pass that, we get down to 18 cents on the dollar. And by the fourth generation, in my scenario, we were passing on $44 million. dollars. How are you going to beat inflation by buying discounted dollars of life insurance? Where else do you go get a dollar for 40 cents income tax free? That's amazing. Or at Sawyer's age, a 20 cent dollar income tax free for his errors. So by you buying life insurance, you already helped grandkids that aren't even born. But you got that's where

you got to have. You got to be in the legacy game. You got to be in the legacy. You got to be in the legacy game. Because all I got from Sam Meek was a post hole digger, a railroad vice, that hay trolley, and an anvil. That's all I got from the fourth generation back, which I thought that was pretty good. But 44 million would have been a lot better. But you, yes, you have, so now, now you have to make sure you follow through. So that's where human emotion is going to be the biggest issue again. I have had five death claims in the last couple of years. I have had a couple of those we've met with the entire family. The process is one passes, the next one uses the death benefit to go buy more death benefit. Oh yeah. Hasn't happened, right? And one of them, dad passed within the

first two years of his policy. We paid two cents for every dollar a death benefit. Two cents. did the errors buy more life insurance they took the money and ran oh they went and bought crypto put it in the policy and then go buy crypto oh man because it's still earning you something right so even though the entire family sits and meets with me because in this scenario the entire family was there the emotion of and it's not their fault it is having to mourn somebody's passing and we don't understand how important that piece is. Yeah. Because we need two years typically to mourn.

And I am coming in in a matter of 10 days with a check and saying, hey, we should be putting this in more life insurance. And you're thinking, I just buried somebody, shut the hell up. But I already know what the plan is, right? So there comes a trust factor that you just wrote a policy with me, trust that I am going to take care of. for that next piece. And in this scenario, it was a business that wasn't being run really well,

so some of that money needed to fix the business. And then we just got too far away from it and comfortable. There's more to life than finding the perfect car. But finding the perfect car can help you get the most out of life. Like the SUV that handles everything from drop off to off road, and the car that hulls groceries and hockey teams, or the van that's gone from just pre-off. Practical to practically family.

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Unless they can, unless they still have some of it and it's there and we put some of it in. Yeah. So. I guess I just wanted to ask you this, and you might be a little biased, but I'm just still trying to, I'm still just rationalizing and thinking about this. So like, I think you're big on cash flow, we're big on cash flow, wealthy's big on cash flow. And like what I talked about with like the refinancing of equity. Like so if you could rank taking equity out of existing property and putting that on something else to another asset to buy, you know, you have marginal loans on the stock market,

have stocks to take marginal loans out. They have interest that they have to pay. They got to pay it back, right? And then you have whole life cash insurance. What do you rank it on? And like, what are the differences between those? Like what are the positives of those and what are the differences and what are, I don't know, I'm kind of just trying to break those three things down. So first of all, your equity is shit unless the bank gives you the money against it. Right. You don't have to ask on whole life if you're going to get that money. It's just going to be there. Right. Now, if you, if you came to me and said, Mary Jo, I've got this equity. I'm going to go buy another rental. Fine. Go rent that, go to the bank, get the equity. Some, some agents will tell you to

put it in a policy, then go buy the property. I'm not that person. I want you to go to get that equity, put it on another property, and you use that cash flow to start your next premium. That premium is going to start one way or another, but it's going to start with cash flow. So build the equity, use the equity to create more cash flow. That cash flow, what goes into a policy? What you're doing now, most likely Sawyer, is you're taking that cash flow and buying stuff with cash, and you've lost opportunity cost on that money.

Because the cash never got into the policy to earn uninterrupted compound interest and dividends the rest of your life. And it never got to create the death benefit to go to the kids that aren't even born yet. Yeah, that is the other side of it is you're accomplishing the same thing, but you also have the death benefit. Right. That doesn't necessarily help you, but it definitely, it's generational.

A lot more important when you have kids. Well, that helps me a little bit. Yeah, I was just thinking about it. I think about it. Because I just want to try to. It's not in your brain. It's an or asset. Yeah.

I have to have equity or I have to have the policy. It's an and asset. You have the policy and you have the rental properties and you have the business and you have the farm. Yeah. I think the biggest, the biggest takeaway I get from it is just the freedom. That's, yeah, freedom.

You don't have to call. And we tell everybody, you know, some of the most important relationships you need to have when you get started is you need to have a group of people that you trust. You need a banker. You need somebody that you trust because there's things you need a banker for. But at the same time, the freedom of being able to make a decision and just go do it and not have to.

Well, they're the option of not, they're not the only option to get money. Right. That's the nice part. Because right now, everybody, most people, the bank's the only option. Right. That's the only option. The bank needs to be plan B, not plan A. Yeah.

And so the banker, if bankers, if there's a banker listening to this, they should love me. Because when that farmer comes to me, I'm saying, where are your books? Why don't you know your numbers? The banker has every right to be asking stupid questions because you don't know your numbers. I wouldn't lend you any money either. Right. Right. So I am getting that guy in a position where he can go to the bank and the banker can actually have some legit numbers to look at. He's a better customer. But when he does go to the bank, he's not going to have all this astronomical debt. Right. And the banks, when you go to the bank, they say, do you have credit life insurance?

They want you to have life insurance, some of them, not most of them. I mean, it's unbelievable how many people have loans with no life insurance. But the bank actually wants you to have life insurance. So it's not, like, I am just preparing you to be a better bank customer at the end of the day. But when you have the liquidity of the money, like the land that we just bought a year ago, we got a smoking deal. because I said the guy had to move, land was for sale. He said, this is what I want.

I said, yeah, that's not what I'm paying. I said, but I'll give you this and I'll have the money and we close in 10 days. Cash. I didn't have to fill out paperwork. I didn't have to get an appraisal. I didn't have to pay for bank fees. And he didn't like the offer, but he took it. Because it's quick.

And we closed in 10 days. And I saved six figures on that piece of ground. Is it all or enough? Like, can you dabble and take loans from banks? and do the, you can do all or nothing. I have a bank loan. Yeah. We have,

we have acreage that I have a bank loan on because why wouldn't I? It was two and a half percent. Right. I am not borrowing money from my policy at 4.75 and 4% when I can go to the bank and get it at two and a half. Right. I'm going to leave the money in the policy so I can go buy things that create cash flow. So it's just another tool in your tool belt is what it is. 100%.

It's just more knowledge. I come in to say, hey, you call and say, Mary Jo, okay, I got this opportunity and I'm doing this. And, you know, people say, well, should I go to the bank and borrow money for that? I'm like, well, I don't know what else you got going on. It gets another 15, 20 minute conversation because there's so many other things you have going that I might say, no, you need to go to the bank for that. And let's leave the money and the policy for something they're not going to lend you money for. Right.

I have a lot of clients that have goats and sheep and equine and like banks, banks, Banks understand hogs and they understand cattle and corn and soybeans. They do not understand hemp. They do not understand horses. They don't understand goats. Oh, they understand horses. They understand that they're a horrible investment. Right now they are an amazing investment.

Don't say that. If you're, well, your fiancé girlfriend? Girlfriend. Soon to be fiance. I heard that in. Someday. Someday. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a talk about ambiguous. Soon to be someday. Hey, it's a, you take two to tango. We got to go to ring shopping. Somebody has to ask.

We got to get our schedules aligned here. Because I ain't going to wing it going into it. If she's breaking horses? She wants horses. She's got a horse. She's bored in it, but she wants to bring it. Owning a horse?

Yeah. That's not I'm making her money. Breaking those suckers right now? Because apparently everybody wants a horse because they think they're yellow stuff. Yep. Oh, Western culture. So my, I have a ton of horse people, and they are just raking in the money right now.

They're just training them enough for either people to ride them or to sort cattle with them. And, I mean, you're looking at 10 grand. A pop. You're going to drop 10 grand on a saddle broke horse. You're going to maybe, it's going to probably cost you $2,500, $3,000 to get a colt. Back in our day, they were selling them. for food. Yeah, hundreds of dollars.

Right. No, not today. Since Yellowstone, and I actually asked, like I've been asking all my horse people, I'm like, I don't get it. Why? And they're like,

they all say it's Yellowstone. All these, the wealthier city people want a horse. And then if this, if the horse is too broke and too trained, they don't know how to ride it. And like I have one person I talk to that this horse is just bucking this guy off all the time.

And they're like, that horse is trained. like every small little movement is a signal and you do not know how to ride he's like well i just want to sort some cows like on yellowstone that would be perfect soyer because that will in a few years you're going to have all these yuppies that have got horses and they're paying that boarding bill and they're like son of a much this is not what it's cracked up to be and i didn't get any dates out of this i thought that my instagram with me on this horse was going to get me a lot of women she needs to go break those suckers and sell them now because now is where the money's at. Who knows how long that's going to cost. Yeah, how long the cultural thing happens. As soon as Yellowstone is done, we're going to forget about why we wanted a horse. Yeah. That's right. Well, thanks. She's going to be editing this podcast, just smiling ear to ear. Because she's like, how do I make this a business? I love horses. I love animals.

Go flip some horses. Go flip some horses, cat. And if you can get some pink buckle horses, is she barrel race? She'd love to. She didn't grow up a horse. She didn't grow up a horse. She didn't grow up with horses, but she always wanted one. So pink buckle is a big thing I just learned about. It's in Texas, and we're talking, I don't remember what it is, 300,000 million if you win the pink buckle, whatever. So if you can breed to a pink buckle stud or you can provide some semen or something embryos to pink buckles, it's a big deal. If you got a pink buckle horse. Well, there you go, Kat. She's got you covered. Damn it, I just sent her a video of some guy. We're definitely going to have to go buy a policy now. Yeah, for sure.

Some guy that Halter breaks Colts by hitching him to a mule. Because the mule just stubborn and he'll just wear the horse out. You know, he'll just sit down and that horse will be going crazy and that mule's just standing there

and going, nope, nope. Anyway, cats like, we need a mule. We need a mule. Well, I say we went down the rap hole and I think it was awesome, very valuable. So let's get kind of into like just a little bit. But we'll go like rapid fire here, but like what drives you? What makes you want to continue doing what you're doing? You seem like a very ambitious woman. You're going after. You're getting rental properties. You got this business. You're educating people. Like what? Why do you do it? What drives you? For the farming side of it? Because when I die, I want people to go, that lady changed the way farming is financed. Like we can't, we just can't continue to doing what we're doing. For over 100 and 100 years, we've been borrowing money from the bank. and crying that we're not making any money.

Well, it's time for the farmers to take that back, right? So that's my big thing, and the rest of it's just the love of the game like you. I just love it. I just love being able to do it. Like, once I figured it out, that was game changer. Because forever I was Robert Kiyosaki, Dave Ramsey, Susie Orman, and they contradict to one another, and I didn't get anywhere. And so when I finally figured out how to do it, that's game changer.

and I just don't want to have to worry about where my money's coming from when I retire. I don't want to go, okay, I'm going to go buy my last Buick. And I'm never going to have another car because I got 30 years with this one. And I can't go anywhere and I can't do anything and I can't buy any new clothes. You know, like that's all of our grandparents. Like they didn't do anything because they thought they couldn't. Yeah. No, you can.

It's just, I just don't want to have to live like that. least favorite farm chore as a kid. Chickens. Chickens. Good answer. I actually lost my birthday over the chickens. Really? Because I lied all the time about feeding emotes and I never fed emotes.

And my mom caught me and she's like, you are not having a birthday party. You get nothing. I like got my birthday present. I got a cake. I never lied again. That's pretty good. I hate those chickens, man. Took away your damn birthday.

Yeah. My mom is pretty strict. I'm sure dad was in the background going, that's harsh. I was the only girl, you know. You also saw that look in her eye and said, I'm not, I'm not stepping in. I'm not playing with fire. Who inspires you the most? In today's, just creators, entrepreneurs, business people, whatever, anybody.

I know you mentioned some people there, but. You know, I am not easily informed. influenced. So I don't care who you are. Like, I'm kind of Henri. So like if president walked in, I elected your ass or didn't, whatever, one of the two, right? So why should I be kissing it? You're working for me. Right. Like, I'm just not easily influenced by people. Like, I really liked, I really liked Gary V for a while. All his stuff is pretty stag. at the moment. Yeah.

Kind of not meat and potatoes. Yeah. It's pretty lovey-dovey. Yeah. I don't have feelers really. So I'm like, eh. I just don't,

I mean, I just take pieces from. Everybody. Yeah, here and there. I don't have one person that's like, oh my gosh, that's who I want to be like. If there's anybody that I would say that person is amazing was Nelson Nash.

He truly lived. He had two purposes in life. Austrian economics and spreading the Bible. And he lived the Bible. He didn't just read it and then pretend to quote it, you know. He was a good guy. What's next? What is your? What's next on TikTok? I don't know. Mobile pet washing. Mobile pet washing. When are you putting yours in? That's actually a really good idea. I know. Mobile grooming, doggy daycares. There you go. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. know what's next. I mean, I don't know.

We'll just see where it goes. The ultimate agenda is making sure that my farmers are taken care of. That's the ultimate agenda. How can people work with you? Where can they find your book? Where can they find you online? Well, you

anywhere. If you just type my name in, it's there Mary Joe Erman or Farming Withoutthebank.com. Without thebank.com. I'm on TikTok. I'm on YouTube. The only place I'm not is Twitter, and I'm actually there, but I'm not there. But everywhere else, yeah, it's, I don't know. It's hard.

It's one of those weird ones. It's like they don't like video. Like, sometimes they like video. The only reason I like it is because you can say whatever you want on there. I mean, to an extent. Yeah. It's a free speech platform. That's the only thing I like.

Well, and I'm, like, I'm on even TikTok. I've kind of backed off recently just because I'm busy doing other stuff. Yeah. It's just a lot. You know, I've got two. podcast without the bank, farming without the bank. Like,

I didn't even do it without the bank podcast this week because I just didn't have time. But, yeah, so I'm everywhere. Yeah. Good enough. If you can't find me,

you're not looking. You don't got internet. Yeah. Exactly. Or you spelled it wrong. Yeah. Well, Mary, it was an absolute pleasure.

I think people could have got, they should have gotten a lot of value. I know I did. I learned a lot. I know dad learned a lot. And it's hard for me to learn. Yeah, I know. You got a stubborn way about you now. So, just slow.

Hey, go buy Mary's book. Go reach out. Check out what she's doing. Follow her on social. And if you got any value from the show, share it out with your friends, family, coworkers, employees, whoever, pay the fee, share the show. We'll see you back here next week for another episode.