Barn Talk - I Bet My Entire Farm on Raw Milk. Here's What Happened

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Welcome back to Barn Talk! In today’s episode, we have an inspiring conversation with Rick Anglin, a fourth-generation dairy farmer from Arizona who made the bold decision to leave behind the conventional dairy business after 17 years and forge a new path for his family’s future. Rick tells the remarkable story of how he bet it all to start Fond du Lac Farms- a fully integrated raw milk operation where they raise the cows, bottle the milk, and deliver it directly to grocery shelves. We dive deep into the challenges of cutting out the middleman, the transition from commodity agriculture to building a premium, direct-to-consumer brand, the power of faith and family in weathering tough times, and what it takes to build a truly generational business. Whether you're in agriculture or just looking for real-world entrepreneurship lessons, get ready for an episode packed with practical wisdom on risk, resilience, and redefining success. Let’s get into it! JOIN THE BARN TALK NEWSLETTER & GET LIVE EVENT ACCESS: We're on a mission to get 10,000 subscribers, and once we do, we're hosting a live event at the barn! Sign up to get exclusive access to tickets and details.👇🏻 Help us get there: https://www.joinbarntalk.com SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST ➱ https://bit.ly/3a7r3nR   SUBSCRIBE TO THIS’LL DO FARM ➱ https://bit.ly/2X8g45c  LISTEN ON: SPOTIFY ➱ https://open.spotify.com/show/3icVr4KWq4eUDl7Oy60YMY  APPLE ➱ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/barn-talk/id1574395049 Follow Behind The Scenes👇🏻 ● Barn Talk Instagram ➱ https://www.instagram.com/barntalkshow  ● Barn Talk TikTok ➱ https://bit.ly/3qciekS    ● Sawyer’s Instagram  ➱ https://bit.ly/3BtX0n4    ● Tork’s Instagram ➱ https://bit.ly/3LGZJxS ● Sawyer’s X ➱ https://x.com/SawyerWhisler  ● Tork’s X ➱ https://x.com/TorkWhisler       00:00 Deciding to quit farming 12:06 Building a quality brand 27:49 Promoting success in cattle farming 39:31 Balancing faith and entrepreneurship 48:04 Early brainstorming and broke struggles 59:49 Discussing milk intolerance and ethnicity 01:05:57 Discussing diet and health choices 01:19:21 Choosing the right business partners 01:23:45 Raw milk's comeback during Covid 01:41:48 Family legacy and stewardship 01:47:54 Marriage advice and animal husbandry 01:55:29 Butterfat content in milk ------------------------------- ⚠NO FINANCIAL ADVICE / DISCLAIMER⚠  The Information discussed and shared on Barn Talk is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including warranties of accuracy, completeness, or success for any particular purpose. The Information contained in or provided from or through this podcast is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice, investment advice, trading advice, or any other advice. The Information on this podcast and provided from or through our content is general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. You should not make any decision, financial, investment, trading or otherwise, based on any of the information presented on this podcast without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional, professional broker or financial advisory. Understand that you are using any and all Information available on or through this website at your own risk. RISK STATEMENT– The trading of Bitcoins, alternative cryptocurrencies, NFTs, individual stocks, etc. has potential rewards, and it also has potential risks involved. Trading may not be suitable for all people. Anyone wishing to invest should seek his or her own independent financial or professional advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All of the food we eat and much of the clothing we wear comes from plants and animals that are raised on farms. Farms are different in type, in size, and even in name. Hey, everybody. Before we get this one started, I just wanted to let you know that there might be a little bit of rain noise. There might be some backerine noise in the audio of this one because we had Mother Nature rain really, really hard for a little bit. And so just bear with us on that. I wanted to let you guys know up front. It goes away pretty quickly. but, you know, might have a little bit of audio quality problems just a little bit.

So just bear with us there. And let's get into it. Welcome to Barn Talk. What happens at the barn stays in the barn, but not today. We're going to let it all out for you guys. Today is going to be another great guest episode. We just keep bringing more and more banger episodes and guests week after week. And it's a big credit to you guys because you all continue to share the show.

You all continue to leave reviews on Spotify or Apple. you share the clips and we just appreciate it. And that's probably the biggest thing you can do to help us out here at Barn Talk is just share the show with the people that you know. That's how we grow this thing. It's been the best way to grow our podcast. It's the ticket to admission to watch or listen to the show. And we just appreciate all you that do all those ways to help us out.

And 2026 is just going to continue to be a great year for Barn Talk. One other thing you can do to help us out at Barn Talk is you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter. join barn talk.com. We're putting out a weekly newsletter all about what's going on in rural America and our thoughts on it. I'll keep you informed. And we have a goal with that. If we get to 10,000 newsletter subscribers, we want to throw a live event right here on the farm in the barn and have some good bourbon with you guys, have some great guest speakers come back to the barn and drop some value and just have a good old, good old time, good old event. And yeah, that's what we're trying to build

towards right now. So it's been good. But it's been good. It's growing. It's growing really well. So we, we appreciate all you that have signed up for it. But man, it's, it's coming along good. So, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's hot. It's hot outside. It is hot. Side dressing time of the year. We got three inches of rain over the weekend. Yesterday, I started back up side dressing. It was a little bit dicey. If it wasn't for the fact that we'd no-till and all that trash was out there, I probably wouldn't have been able to go. Today is going to be better. Hopefully get finished up before the rain.

Corn's growing fast. Beans are growing fast. Everybody's yard's growing fast. Sweetheart's out mowing the yard. So that's good. That's a bonus. I had a great time at World Pork Expo. I saw a lot of you up there.

Great to talk to you. Appreciate it. All the people that came up and introduced themselves. You know, I got this white hat. I realized I didn't have a white hat. I look almost angelic, don't I? Yeah, I saw you. I saw you when I was pulling up to the barn with a white hat on,

and I was like, that's probably going to get dirty. Pretty brave, huh? It is pretty brave. It's kind of like me in a white shirt at a barbecue buffet. That's right. But I'll try to keep this one nice for the fine people that gave it to me. You know, I got some quick advice for young people. Gets to know everybody can, talk to everybody,

learn how to say hi, introduce yourself, because you never know. You just never know the dividends. that's going to pay. So the fine young guy that gave me this hat that I talked to for a while, he actually was a feed salesman back in the day when I was selling hog buildings. And I saw him in their booth. And I was like, gosh, that guy looks familiar. And the first year that I worked for PSI, we were building buildings up for Kepler's up, I don't know, north of Highway 20, north of Strawberry Point. And this guy was the feed salesman. And all these years later, he's working for

grain and ingredient hedging. So anyway, it was good to catch up with him. So you know what? Make those connections. It's about who you know. Yep, that's right. 100%. Yeah, you still have to know what you're talking about.

So it's about who you know first and then it's about what you know. So you still got to know it, but it sure helps a hell of a lot if you do know a few people. That's right. Who are we going to get to know today? Well, our guest today is in a sector of ag that's kind of under some controversy. It's an emerging sector in ag that a lot of people have an interest in. Rick England is a fourth generation dairy farmer from Arizona. He spent 17 years in the conventional dairy business before realizing that model wasn't working anymore and for his family's future.

So he walked away, bet everything he had and started Fondalock farms. Today, they are a fully integrated operation. They raise the cows, bottle the milk, and drive it straight to the store and stock the shelves. they are raw milk providers for sprouts grocery stores in Arizona. We're going to talk about the business of raw milk, cutting out the middleman, and what it takes to build a generational family business. So without any further ado, let's get into it.

Yeah, well, we're live, boys. So Rick England, welcome to Barn Talk. Thank you. It's an honor to be here, guys. It's an honor to have you. You know, we came across your guys' Instagram profile and what you're doing. And, man, I got to say I'm a big fan. I love any farmer or rancher that's taken,

taking the world by their own hands and making something, and your brand is pretty incredible. So we'll get into all that good stuff. But I just want to say, I commend you for that. It's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. So, like what, you've been doing this about 10 years. So about...

Yeah, I mean, the farm, yeah, it actually started about 12 years ago. Okay. Where I moved into this venture. You know, like my family, I mean, I wasn't... I didn't like jump into the dairy business. I was born into it. Yeah. And so it's just something that's been a part of our family

for almost 75 years in Arizona. So you spent like 17 years in a commercial dairy situation. Correct. And then you pivoted and you got into this. Yep. Was there like a moment in there where maybe there was a lot of moments, but was there a moment in there where you looked to your wife and you were like, uh, maybe, maybe this isn't what I was supposed to do.

like yeah no i uh when we were building it and i think we were talking about this last night i'm said i'm sure people kind of thought i was like noah building an arc out there in the middle of the desert yeah and just thinking this guy's uh this guy's crazy um and i mean because i always refer to our building as our our site as purpose built like i didn't just go and rent somebody's place like i tried to think it all the way through like this this needs to be done to accomplish this to create this brand and not you know and a lot of research went into that but yeah like I remember being about a month or two out thinking like oh no like what have I what have I done you know and I think I referenced Bull Durham I'm like they're gonna they're gonna support it right you know like we didn't

know like how it was going to be received so yeah there was uh yeah it was it was a very interesting trying time I mean um wondering where how things are going to work out you know but the Lord's been faithful through it all. Yeah, the thing that just I'm kind of in awe in is, and I don't know, anybody, any farmer, anybody that produces a commodity that is sold on a daily basis, it's got to be, it's got to be at some points terrifying when you're going to milk these cows every day

and you're just banking on that you got somebody to sell it to every day. day. Correct. Yeah. I mean, and it doesn't happen overnight. And I mean, for for us, like I said, my whole family, like my kids, my mother-in-law, my father-in-law, like we were, we were out there, you know, in the stores, doing promotions, talking about it and really doing this kind of like we're doing here today. It's like it's the face-to-face. It's, it's, it's, uh, farmer's markets. I mean, I, I, wherever it was, just to talk about what we were doing, not necessarily trying to be a hard sell, but just people knowing me, you know, and who I am. And, and, and, and, and, and, the brand that they were going to be supporting.

But over the years, like, we started small. And as the demand kept, we just kept growing. But it wasn't like, we didn't come into the market and be like, all right, I'm looking 500 cows. You know, what are we going to do? It's like, we didn't know. So we just could always adjust and just kept on going as it built up. That's awesome.

What was the moment? I mean, there probably was a fair amount of moments, but you went from the conventional side to this raw milk side. And what were the, what were the reasonings behind that? Was it straight economics? Was it family dynamic? I mean, go through that because there's probably a lot of guys that are there, you know? Sure. Sure. Well, I mean, it wasn't that I, I mean, I love the cows. I love the industry. I love everything about it. Like, it brings me joy. I just never I didn't enjoy how it's structured we are we're basically we're we're business owners that have no control over our destiny and so it's like whatever the board's telling us the milk's worth that's what it's worth and it's like you're trying to hedge your bet and you're buying feed and you're looking at and then when futures came into the deal I'm like man do I like daring this much that I have to go now and and bank or bet hopefully what it's going to be in the future. I'm like, I don't know if I like it that much.

And so it was always just a big roller coaster ride. And so for me, just wanting to, I guess, look at things and say, I just got to a point to where it didn't make sense anymore. And that was probably one of the most difficult decisions I ever made was just coming to my wife. And I told her one day, I said, I think I'm done with this. Like, I can't do it anymore. and your fate a lot of times is tied to your banker too because they may tell you you can't do it anymore even if I wanted to do it but I didn't want somebody to tell me I can't do it um so it seemed like a good good idea to exit and this actually this was not on my radar at all like I was looking

to get a job and I really like genetics I kind of was I was talking about you know some of the maybe a bull stud because I could I know cattle and or moving in that direction and I'm I had been offered job at a pretty big dairy in Arizona. So it was kind of like, I knew I had options. But here we are. And I think I was telling you guys last night, I got invited to a conference, and I was meeting people all around the U.S.

And it's Prairie Farry. Prairie Farms. Yeah, Prairie Farms. Yeah. They were there and chatted with them and came home and wrote a budget that night. I was up all night. She woke up in the morning, and I'm just like, hey, can we, is this possible?

You know? And she's like, well, she goes, I do think it's possible, but I think if we're going to do it, it needs to be raw milk. And you went, what? I was a little bit like, oh, man, I don't know, you know, just because when you're in the industry and your co-op's telling you, like, no, no, you can't do that. That's not, you know, like, you get a little bit indoctrinated to the thought process.

Like, and I'm a thinker. We talked about this last night. Like, I always want to know the why behind something. And so down the rabbit hole we went, you know, and just started really researching and going around the country and and visiting other farms and talking with guys that were doing it. And what year would that been? That would have been in 2012. And so that was really early. Right.

Like there wasn't a whole lot of people. Most people were, you know, it's kind of like selling moonshine. Yeah. I mean, you'd be sitting there. It's like, you're in the parking lot. Yeah. You want a little bit of this? Yeah.

And so that was always kind of my joke is like, you know, it had such a bad face to it. Yeah. And so, you know, it's like with I, we talk about like brands and it's like, you know, what you guys are building in a brand. It's like, wow. Like you're doing something with excellent. So if I'm going to pivot into this and I'm going to start doing this, like I'm going to be the best in my neck of the woods at what I'm doing. And so because I don't, I don't come in average. Like I always want to, you know, do above and beyond. everything has to be done with excellence. And so that was really, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it right.

Not just from the milk, but to the cattle we milk, to the building, to all of it. Like everything's going to be first class. And not that we had the money to move in all those ways, but the big, the base, if you will, when you're building a foundation, firm foundation, you got to have that. So, I mean, that's biblical. So we started with that. And we had a good base, a firm foundation, and then we could grow. one thing I learned from like even with my dad my dad always kind of built things backwards you know

and if I explained that to you it's just like there were seasons where he didn't have enough money to do what he wanted to do but so he built it that when I do have it it was just an add on you didn't even know it like you're like man this is genius and so that's some of my thinking my dad always kind of something I picked up from him is just like all right we can we'll do this and then when I got the money I can do this started with the end in mind reverse engineer yep yeah yeah I got two questions on your on on on that story so number one what did your family think when you got it got out of the you know commercial dairy business because it was generational right right were what were they thinking yeah i think you know i think my dad um i definitely think he he understood why yeah i mean it was

really it was really really hard on me um and because like i said you you kind of i mean what do you say you feel like you failed you know um and And like even when I was talking to my wife, when we were chatting last night, like a glass half, empty glass half full, like I'm a half full guy. And she had made the comment like, you know, well, we had a failed business. I had never really thought about it that way. And I didn't take that personal. But I'm like, yeah, she's right. Like, I guess for me, I wanted to curb that so that I didn't have it taken away from me.

And even when I exited, I mean, things were, they were rocking and rolling. Like, you know, we were making money. milk price was good. We got a lot of money for coal cows, and I'm just like, okay. So like when I looked at like, I would come away with a little bit of something, that was really the big deal.

But yeah, like I don't think that my dad or my family, they understood. And a lot of dairymen even in that area, like they were kind of like, I think they were shocked that I was exiting because my family, like my granddad, like he's one of the founders of the co-op. And so, I mean, I got roots there.

Yeah. And so when you start, start looking at who's exiting. And that's what really spooked me is there was a guy I really respected. And he exited about maybe five years before I did. And I'm like, if he's getting out of the dairy business, what in the heck am I doing in it? Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's true in so many sides of ag. I mean, that's part of the reason why we keep doing what we're doing. I mean, in some aspects, we're all a little insane because we keep doing the same thing over and over again. It doesn't work. And the row crop, I mean, we talk about that in row crop. I mean, it's so hard because, one, it's an identity, you know, and every generation it becomes more of an identity.

So it isn't like it's just a job. It's part of who you are. and two, you build this massive, you know, the amount of capital that's sitting there, all the equipment's sitting there, the buildings are sitting there. And I think a lot of people feel like the more you have, the harder it is to pivot, the harder it is change, and the harder it is to just say, you know what, I'm walking away from that. And I bet you there's a lot of people that probably looked at that.

On the one hand, they thought you were crazy. On the other hand, there's probably people that thought, I kind of wish I could do that, but I can't for all of these reasons. Right. Right. Yeah. On, when you went to that conference, you had said, you, you know, we were thinking about getting a job. You went to that conference.

You came back. You started making a budget. And you didn't have the raw milk idea until your wife said something. So were you thinking about creating a, just creating a dairy business from cows to bottle to grocery store on the just regular milk side? Yes. Okay. That's really what I was first thinking about doing is just that,

you know, maybe moving into glass, you know, doing something more like boutique. And, you know, because that sales, you know, I mean, it just, yeah. And I mean, but for me, again, back to, I guess, authenticity, if you will, it's like, yeah, I just, I wanted to do something that was unique to the market. We talked about this last night. Like, you know, I don't want to be like everybody else. Like I want, um, not that I need to be known. That wasn't the, that wasn't the motivation, but it's just like, I want to create this premium product that it's like, okay, like he's the only guy doing this. Yeah. And so that's, that was really what it needed to be, regardless of what the path had been. Now, caveat to that though, too, is just that I'm,

I'm, I'm pretty serious about health, you know, and, and I like, food's important to me and source in and that kind of, that is all part of who we are as a family. And so like this, this kind of track, like for, it was a sweet spot for me because it's like, I get to do what I love, right? I get to work with cows. Like, that's my giftedness. That's what the Lord put on you. That's what I know how to do. And she loves health, you know, I do too. But like she's really, that was really important to her. So like, it was a perfect blending, if you will, for our family and just that she could really get behind what I was doing. And, you know, it's like when you got your partner along for the ride, and it's like we both believe in what we're doing.

She'll tell me all the time, she's like, I can't do the work for you, but I sure can pray for you. I'll take that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's awesome. But yeah, just having your partner, like, she's my, you know, my encourager and just kind of kept me, kept me going, kept pushing me.

And so here we are. Yeah. Well, you know, it's not too late. If you ever do decide to do the glass bottle thing, you could just put her in a bonnet, and she could be the image on the glass bottle. So that might be payback for all the prayer. Yeah. You know, you talked about this last night of just, like, I feel like you've made, it's easy to just say,

oh, we made this transition and do this. But man, you kind of went, you went all in on this thing. Like, you put all your chips in the table and pushed them in there and so we're doing this. Right. How much pressure and how much, like, how much, describe how you were feeling during that time, those hard moments of just like, we got to make this work. burning the ships is kind of the thing I thought about last night. He's like, man, you really burn the ships and we're like,

this is a no surrender mentality. We're going for this. Well, I always think about like at the end of Tombstone, like Wyatt Earp is sitting there and he goes, he's going because I got nothing. I got nothing to offer you, nothing to give it. And that's kind of where I felt like personally. It's like, I sold everything.

If it had monetary value, it was gone. Like I didn't, my identity was not tied up in anything. It was about I got a family to take. care of like you know i mean you want to talk about big borrow steel man that was me like i i just you know can i sell this can i sell this i just i got down to where it was just nothing you know i mean i had to trench i had to trench a line and it was 350 bucks to rent the trencher and i'm like i don't know if i got enough to rent that trencher i mean this is where it was getting down to and i mean i was out like a toned i had a year's worth of sweat equity like we were working by you know by

headlights at night outside Weldon and just doing everything, what I could do, you know. But yeah, it was, it was really, it was a spooky time, you know, because it's like, I got a house. I got, I got a family, I got stuff I got to pay for, you know. And it was stressful. It was stressful on me. It was stressful on my wife. It's stressful on my kids. It's like, you know, I mean, I didn't think I'd ever be there. But here we aren't. And, when you're commercial i'm assuming that was probably a holstein herd or a jersey herd yeah it was holsteen so talk about the thought process because now you're brown swiss right which that's unusual of itself but going from a commercial herd to this like how did you how did you settle on

that way to go well i mean i would say the big thing is was as a kid um you couldn't go to a Arizona and not there wasn't a there was always one or two brown swiss on every dairy because the wives loved them you know they were beautiful and so like my mom like I there were a couple on our place everybody had a Swiss at least one and I just fell in love with them as a kid um I just you know big big ears and just super docile and and I just thought they were a cow that was really kind of misunderstood um and my brown Swiss mentor Steve Faber uh he had one of the best milking her in the country. And he brought his herd out to the University of Arizona. And this guy, like, it didn't matter. He got more milk than Holstein, Jersey, whatever else. I mean, I just sat there and I was

just in awe of what he was doing with these cows, especially in Arizona with how hot it was. And so, like, when I first started looking, this is even when I was in commercial, buying a few, I'd be like, hey, Steve, because it was always kind of like either really typey, like for going to Madison to show at World Dairy Expo. Yep. Or they had a ton of milk. I'm like, is it possible that they could both be good looking and produce? Like, you know, that was kind of my joke to him. And so, like, he helped me with pedigrees and kind of helped me figure out where we needed to go on that.

And so we started kind of, when the girls started showing, we started buying a few. And to the point of where the name of the farm was, our first two heifers we bought were out of Fondelac, Wisconsin. Okay. And so that was kind of where it started for my family. And so through those years, I got to see with the genetics, what was possible, you know, what we could do. And then so like I said, and they just take the heat.

We're, I mean, you know, with all the cooling and everything that we've had, I mean, I don't have any cooling at my farm and you can go out and watch those cows sitting out there and they're not heat stressed. You know, they're sitting there just kind of chilling and they got shade and they get up to eat. And so, and again, it isn't about pounds of milk as we were talking the commercial side. It's really about quality over quantity. And so inputs, you know, that I put into.

those cows and what I get out of them is this really beautiful quality of milk. And I've, I've had every breed. I've milked every breed. And I appreciate them all. But I think when you're talking about milk as far as just overall taste and perfect balance of fat to protein, and when people taste it, it's like, it's like the three bears analogy. You know, it's too much, too little and just right. Like I just feel like it's a sweet spot. Yeah. And again, to differentiating, there's nobody doing this in Arizona. I'm the only guy in Arizona that milks a 100% brown Swiss, you know, and you can't go out and replicate that one overnight. There's not enough to go around. Yeah, let's talk about that. So what, what's there, because obviously you don't graze them.

No. Are you, are you on water allotment? Like, can you get, do you have a well and you can get what you need? Yeah. I've got a well that I had to drill. And, and even at that, like, that's just not, like, you buy the ground, it doesn't mean that you necessarily get a drill. Yeah. So, you know, doing all that backworking, if there was a water district, I'd have to buy water. Well, there wasn't. Well, okay, that's the good news. But now the bad news is I had to drill.

And this is, I mean, we're talking 13 years ago. I think I spent 80 grand, you know. How deep? I'm at 800 feet. Okay. And so I hit at 650 and went ahead on down to 800 to give myself a little breathing room. Just, you know, because you don't know how the table is going to change. And, uh, but no, the water deal.

like I said, on a domestic, it's kind of like it would say on a domestic because it's not commercial. Like, I can draw up to, I think it's 30, 35 gallons a minute is what I can draw. So it's enough to get everybody covered. Yeah. And, but yeah, to your point about like as far as grazing, it's like, this is the conversation I always have. I'm like, I'm in the desert. Like, what were you thinking? You know, like I can't.

There's nowhere to graze them. And so if I said, like, I, I mean, we all know how important water. is. I'm like, it seems kind of silly that I would create a fictitious pasture to make you feel better about things. And like, I know how, I know how farming works. My dad did some when I was a kid, but it's like, I wouldn't say we're good farmers. You know, like, if that's your gift and your craft and you know how to put up good stuff, I'd rather support you and let's work together and you do it because you know how to really get it done and good feed because if I grow junk, yeah, I'm just punishing myself. So it's just like I said, it's very, that's how everybody does it like in our

neck of the woods. Now what you do here or back in Washington or Oregon, it's going to look different. But have a little bit of grace for every farm around the country and say, appreciate the fact of how they do things. It's just different. It doesn't make it wrong. It's just different. Yeah, we talk about that all the time. The broad brushing of agriculture, I get so tired of that. And I think all of us farmers do. We're not enemies. No. We're all trying to make a go with this thing. And most likely a lot of farmers are doing the practices they're doing because of their situation. Right. You know, soil type, weather, family dynamic, this situation financially for the farm. I mean, everybody's trying to do the best they can. But I think a lot of times people

outside of agriculture or somebody that's trying to sell their version of agriculture to the masses, they always just paint the brush. And that's something I really respect about you is like, you are doing stuff differently and your product is premium but you don't shit on the rest of agriculture you know and that's that's what we need to have more of right you know so i just respect that about you yeah thank you i just we were talking about the last last night tour it's like hey listen we may disagree you know like can we i may take some stuff away from what you're doing and you may hear my side of the story and be like that's good too and then let's let's grab a beer you know and continue the conversation.

But it's just like, I think that it's such a great time for ag right now. But some of those pivots are something that you really are probably going to need to consider, you know, in the future. Like, what's going to keep this farm going? You know, like, again, it's like we get comfortable and it's like, it's just, we know this is here and it just works and whatever else. And it's, it's spooky. You're already taking a huge risk. I mean, you're, you got the money out. you got the equipment, you got all the things.

I mean, it's like you're obviously a risk taker. I mean, this is just even a little bit more. You know what I mean? So like saddle up, you know? And so that's the thing. It's just like I, what I really want is I want all farms to have success. Especially within my industry. I mean, even back to the Swiss, like there's such a small, like it's half a percent of cattle around the country.

I know most all the breeders. And so like I'll talk to them. Like, I'm not saying you got to do what I'm doing, but just do something. Like if you made a product or it could be anything. Like there's a market there. And then you got something unique too just in the breed of cattle. I mean, you can market though. And there's guys that do a great job of that.

But there's all kinds of opportunities. And I'm seeing more and more of it the further we get down the road in this process. Because the Lord's given me, and I'm like, he keeps bringing stuff to mind. Like even this morning I talked about like the answers sometimes are yes, no, or wait. And it's interesting because my devotional this morning was about waiting on the Lord. And it was about his timing and everything. It's like it doesn't mean that we don't still think and push into things, but we wait because his timing is always perfect. And so it's like, you know, give us a brain, plan it out, put it in pencil.

You got a big fat eraser to change plants if need be and just keep on moving. And yeah, like he's trusted me with a little. He's trusted me with more. I just want to be a good steward of what I've been entrusted with. Yeah. Something that I noticed about you very early on, and I've noticed this about a lot of the guests we've had on. You know, people would argue this is one of the most challenging times in agriculture in a while, right?

On a lot of fronts. But the guys that continue to show up on this podcast that might be doing things different or be thinking about something different, they all say this is the best time to be in agriculture. I'm optimistic. There's so much opportunity to be had. And it's just that is a trait that I see over and over again. Mindset.

It's a mindset. It's a complete mindset. And I talked to a good friend today about this of there's so many people in agriculture that will not change. That's why there's so much opportunity. Because everybody is so status quo, they're never going to change what they do because that's just how granddaddy's always done it. Right. But that's why they're so. so much opportunity to be had. It's not a super innovative industry, but it needs to start being one

because we got to do something different. So yeah. Well, and that's it. So what are we doing? We're going to sit around and wait for our neighbor to fell, you know? And that's it. A lot of it is hoping, like, well, who's going to close shot? Watching the obituaries. Right. You know what I mean? So I'm like, that's what I was always kind of like doing. And I'd said, too, it's like, I think we were talking about this last night where I said, I like to write. when I have a second and just to think and I wrote like I wrote this deal identity crisis you know am I a dairyman or I'm a man that dairies for a living you know and that was the real question it's like you know it was the hardest thing

to look in the mirror and be like who am I you know and and and but yeah pushing through that it's just like that's it like even when I exited and things were good I think within the next year and a half there was like it was five or six bankruptcies in the industry and i'm not sitting here you know patting myself on the back like oh look how smart i am i'm just saying that it's like do your due diligence like talk to people a lot smarter than you and start looking around the country and look at trends and you guys know this it's like it's not just the states what's happening in china what's happening in brazil like i was a i'm looking at everything from a global standpoint like decision making was being done on what's happening globally

Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not taking those, like you can't just look at what's happening in your back. You're looking at this from a worldview on every decision that you make. So it's like, and I'm thankful like as I grew into those things. But yeah, I really, like I said, it's spooky. But I mean, I think that you got to, you got to think outside the box anymore. And I am. I'm super optimistic. Not because of my business. I just, I see so many cool businesses out there in ag right now. I mean, I just, I see. I see. so much happening. And I mean, people are just, there's so many people crushing it in my neck of the woods. I'm like, oh my gosh, what a great idea. Like I'm, I'm first to applaud. I'm like, so it's like, yeah, I'm very optimistic. And it doesn't have to be big. It can be super small. It can be an intensive. You could be forming an acre or two. Like, I'm serious. Like, that's how crazy it is right now that you could have that success. And so you don't have to think like I'm priced out of this deal. I can't afford it. No. no, no, you can do something real small and it can be super lucrative.

I've seen it. I know what's happening. So, I mean, there's proof there for sure. I think we could, I think we could run on this. We could do this whole episode, never even get to what we actually are here to talk about. I got, I know, I know, but I got to keep going. Every time you talk, I just have more to ask. Faith, you've already hit on it multiple times.

you're definitely a man of God, and that is at your core. I want to talk about when you were going through such trial, such trial and error and trying times of going all in on this, of the pressure. Right. How important was your faith to anchor you to reality and getting through this? Yeah. I think you asked me last night, like, when did you become a Christian? I'm like, well, that's a great question. Matt can tell you when my life changed, you know. And it was, well now we're probably talking close to 27 years ago i mean i grew up in the church heard it um you know i always felt like god was a big disciplinarian you know like i'm gonna get smacked you know and i mean and so really not understanding is his grace and i think when i finally when you finally

helped me with the work of the spirit to understand his grace and what christ did on my behalf um yeah it just changed everything. And so it helped me learn how to become a better father, a better husband, a better friend. And I'm on this road to sanctification, you know, and it's lonely. You're going to have like that core group of friends, you know, that is going to encourage you in your faith. My family, obviously. But yeah, going through those times because the business was tough, right? And then you go ahead and throw life into it too.

You know, and all the things that happen with your family and situations and life and death, all the things, sickness and how it just, it all got woven in there. And it's like, sometimes it's like, man, this is relentless. Like, I just, you know, I'm literally on my knees, you know, like is this ever going to let up? But through it all, like I would say this, the Lord's faithfulness through it all. He is always faithful. We are faithless. He is always faithful. And so he has always faithful. And so he has been there through it all. And when it didn't seem like there was a way, he provided one. And was it always the way that I would have chosen? No. And I don't understand why. And I may never understand why until we get to heaven someday if he is so kind to let me know.

Or I'm going to go, oh my gosh, I didn't know. I see now. And so like I take faith in that because like I'm passing through, man. I mean, this is not my home. And so like if I talk about like, even this business, it's like, it's his business. I'm a steward of it. He's entrusted with me. I can't lose something that doesn't belong to me anyways. He's been so kind and gracious to allow me to be the one at the front to run this for him. And so missionally, the people that come to my farm or who interact with me, like that's what the daily is. The decisions that we make, like, if I talk about like, oh, there's a podcast like faith-driven entrepreneur, faith-driven investor.

Like I want to invest in those types of things because really, like I said, we're all on mission and what our dollars do to go out there because until everyone's heard the gospel, as soon as that's done, we're not here anymore. We're out of here. And so that tells me that there's still work to be done. So here we are.

I'm going to do it. So if you come into my farm and I'm like, hey, can I tell you about that? I'm just, it's always a natural transition. It's like someone to be talking about. I'm like, well, I was reading today. Like, I'm in the Old Testament. I just finished Micah the other day. And it's just kind of like, wow.

And again, to the Lord's faithfulness. Like, he just is there. And so what a great story to talk about, like, he was always there. And they screwed it up. And he was still there. I mean, it wasn't that it wasn't without consequences because there's consequences for sin. And so, but, and we're going to continue to sin. And so, like, asking for that repentance on the daily.

And, you know, when I was praying this morning, I'm just like, man, what an opportunity just to be here today. And that's what's been so cool about watching the show. It's like, I would agree. I'm like, this guy's got to be a Christian. You know what I mean? Just the things. You don't say Lord willing, you know, like, that's the thing. I'm like, I don't know what tomorrow holds.

I may not even be here. Yeah. But it's just like, that's so, because this last month especially, like, man, the guests line up, I'm like, whoa, this has just been wild. Like, I've learned so much. And then, whatever. I don't want to get up because I'm going to jump ahead. That's really good. And I have to say, you know, we touched on this a little bit.

You're going to notice a theme through here of us saying, you know, last night we were talking this. Yeah. I don't know whether. So it's so great that we can meet guests like the night before. Yep. But it also is, it's like, man, if you think this is a good conversation, the conversations that we have before. and then we're all, we're always, everybody's sitting the next day going,

what were we talking about? That was so good. What was that? Yeah. So anyway, but the older I get, I feel like, so old age is frowned upon.

Right. In our society. But I feel like for me and my faith, it is a true gift to be able to get old. Not in the ways that people think. I mean, there's problems that go along with it. I'm hoping that I can hold out on my hips and my knees until they make the sockets greasable.

That'll help a lot, you know. But to have that ability to look back, like I've always said, the worst, the hardest thing for young people when it comes to their faith is they just haven't lived long enough to see how good God has been to them. And when you have lived long enough that you can look, back. That is a true blessing. Absolutely. So yeah. Anyway. And I, you know, somebody that's really spoke to me and I've said it on here many times is Joby Martin. Yep. From Florida. I think he's great.

And I bought his book and I read it. And there was something that stood out to me in that book about we were put on this earth to co-create on God's ultimate creation. And, you know, one of the first things that God ever gave Adam's work to enjoy. Right. Before there was ever, person in the world. Right. And, you know, as somebody that's always felt like sometimes I might make work my idol, right? And I definitely struggle with that. But I was always wanting to do stuff, build stuff, create stuff. And realizing that that was meant for us. Right. And that you can use entrepreneurship and your work as a vehicle to honor God and co-create on his creation. Man, And that just stuck with me and hit me in such a different way.

Right. Because, you know, it's just one of those. I think I had a hard, I was tough on myself about my relationship with work. Right. And thinking that it was taking away so much from God. But when you kind of tie him together and realize how important the work that you're doing is, and if you put him at the center of it, it's a beautiful thing, you know? And so that's kind of been my life razor now is like,

I just want to, I just, retirement's not a biblical value. Like I'm, I want to, Tim Tebow said this. I want to show up to heaven exhausted. Right. I don't want to show up well rested.

If all I'm remembered for is what I did on that football field, I had failed. And I was like, man, if Tim Tebow's saying that, like, what are you thinking? No, I agree.

And like, I mean, a perfect example of that is like, my in-laws, and down in Maryland, I'm like, they are, oh,

to have half the energy that my in-laws have. They are always on the go. And so I have my joke about, my mother-in-law, which I love this woman. I'll always, she's like, I'll be at church and I'm like, you know, are you new here? I'm like, oh, well, I'm Maryland's son-in-law. Oh, everybody knows Maryland.

Like, she's the church lady. And they're always, they've been involved in everything, whether it was nursery or greeting or women's ministries. It's just like, wow. You know, like I said, it's not, they're retired, but they're not retired, right? Because they're just doing whatever's next. Like, when you serve your family,

that's the thing that's multi-generational. talking about the importance of family. It's like, that's our family. Like, it's multi-generational. Like, you know, I got grandsons now. And so to see, like, my mother-in-law, who's a great-grandmother, who's coming over to watch my daughter, my grandson, you know, like we're all just in each other's business all the time, and it's great, you know.

And so many people look at that as a negative. It's like we're raised in the society. Well, you're 18. Get out. You know what I mean? It's like, that's not how the rest of the world is. Mom and I are going cruising. Yeah.

Get out of here. Yeah. So, yeah. It's a, I don't know. I think there's that, like you see that shift just in general, but like you just have so much to be thankful for. We don't deserve any anything. Like if Christ's salvation to me was all I ever got, that's enough, right? Like, I mean, because I mean, I get to see the beauty of like, even driving across Iowa, man, like, how beautiful is this place, you know?

And just to see God's handiwork, you know, to see the sunrise and watch it set. It's just like, wow. Every day I'm amazed. Like, just that he created all. all this. This isn't come from nowhere, you know, and how much better is it going to be, you know, when we're in heaven and it's all perfect, you know? And so that's kind of, that's what keeps me going, is that I know that this is not the end of the story. Yeah. Yeah. Amen to that. Something that, you know, I think that we glaze over just like, I just, I admire so much that you

got out of the commercial industry. And instead of going and getting a job, you went right back into the fire. Like, that's something that I think it just is, it embodies the don't quit mentality. You know, every successful person you talk to, it's just, yeah, you might do something and it might not turn out the way that you want. But all of them, all of those guys say, or girls say, just don't stop the pursuit, though. That doesn't mean your entrepreneurship journey has to end there. Right. It just means that there's something else for you. And I just think about you, it's like, man, it would have been easy for you to go get a job. But you dodged a bullet because a paycheck is so addictive.

Yeah. Benefits. You get a, oh, yeah, you get a paycheck and benefits and you're just like, well, wait. Yeah. Yeah, all I have to show up here. Right. All that to say, I think it's awesome. Yeah.

No, and I appreciate it. And that's the thing. It's like, it was tough because, like, I'd been offered a job. And it was like I could have really used it. um and i was but i also too because nobody knew what i was thinking right and so it was kind of like i wanted to be considerate of the guy who was stepping out on a limb to offer me that job and not leave him high and dry yep so i was like i i said no and even at that i got you got me you got my brain whirl in here while i'm thinking about it like i uh when i was looking for property um

i think i had six different pieces of property and escrow, you know, that all fell out for some reason. This didn't work, you know, and even at that, I didn't have my real estate, my realtor's license, but I went to real estate school and went through the program and I did it in a crash course in two weeks. Didn't end up getting my license, but learned enough to what I was looking for about zoning, permitting, where you want to be, all this stuff. I wrote the contract when I purchased the property on by myself. I didn't, I sent it off. I'm like, did it all? So it hit. title agency.

Wow. It was kind of wild because the guy I was dealing with, he lived in Florida. And when I found the place where our farm is today, I mean, if you were in, if you were within an hour of where I lived, I had been down every back road, every piece of dirt, I found a for sale sign stuck in a bush. It wasn't even hanging up. And I pulled it out and I called. I'm like, is this for sale?

He's like, yeah. So, yeah, it was like, it was so wild. and this was after 08. So like, every piece of dirt was, you know, it would have been worse something. So I'm not kidding.

I'm out in the middle of nowhere. There's 40 pieces of property, 40 acres that guys had paid over a million bucks for out there. And it's kind of like buying stuff on the pennies on the dollar. Yeah. I bought, you know? Yep.

And so I was like, wow. But yeah, I just, I hadn't even thought about that. Like I think one thing too, like you said, the,

when you talk about like just keep pushing, when you're older and you make this pivot, if you will, at this stage in the life, because I jokingly said, I'm like, yeah, my midlife crisis is being in my 40s and unemployed. You know, they didn't buy the vet. You know, I just didn't have anything anymore. And so like every decision over prayer needs to be very calculated because I don't have time to make mistakes. Now, I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes through this, but I really tried to minimize any

of the mistakes. And so using that knowledge of being older, and I'm always saying this to my son-in-law, I was like, learn from me. You don't have to make the same ones I did. There's historical data that 98% of the time, not me saying, just you can go online and see that it tends to work out this way. Now you could be the exception. You could be the 2% where it works different.

But there's just some baseline stuff that we know doesn't work. But there's a lot of freedom and you just need to be careful. That's it. Like I just wanted to, my wife would I think at times thought I was dragging my feet. I'm like, I don't have time to screw this up. Like, I need to be sure that every decision is the right one. And I'm thankful because the Lord's blessed that because I really, I think we've made a lot of good decisions, you know.

And here we are. It just kind of keeps going, you know. So. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yes. And last thing, and we'll move actually into your operation more. Sure.

but I noticed this from last night, you're a guy that, and you talked about a little bit and just your last point there, you're calculated and you, the importance of being a constant learner, you know, like I asked you this question last night about just how many hours that you put in before actually getting this thing off the ground of planning because there's, there's, it is important to actually take action. And I think there's a lot of people that just all they do is plan and never take action. But another trait that I see for, with guys that come on the show is they're constant learners and they're calculated and they make sure that they gather as much information about what they're heading into before they just head into it. And I feel like you've done that, you did that really well too, it sounds like. Well, yeah, thank you. It wasn't without, you know, soliciting and asking a lot of people for their input. Again, I'm, I've watched a lot of movies through the year, but like I'm thinking about Jerry McGuire. And when he's, he's broke, you know, and they're sitting there. Aaron, it's the signing party, and he's spending money he doesn't have to throw out, you know, the

hors d'oeuvres for the family. And it's like, that was for us, like we had a group, like almost like a think tank, if you will, that we met at a restaurant spending money I don't have, you know, to solicit people who were kind of in food to figure out, is that, does this work? You know, like getting their input, like, what do you think we could do? And this is really even before more like direct to sales, because they were, they were just starting to push. into some of that. And so I saw that, you know, that was potentially an avenue. But it's just like, I have so many people that I've, I've asked. And not like for their permission, like from the overall, but maybe just like where their skill set was really strong. And take away. Like I still have like

it's a big manila folder. And it's called the dream, you know. And it's, I don't know, it's probably about this thick and it's just you know sketches things i saw cutouts oh sure you know just about all the process through this um and and and just like i look back through it actually my youngest daughter macy well she was still a little small like she had she wrote on there she drew out this pencil sketch it was macy's macy's petting zoo and it was like you know part of the deal and i was just kind of like man like this is like but that's all in there you know and it's just like you said, reflecting on things. And like I, we were talking about, like, I have a pole barn. Like, I wanted to look retro in 2026, you know, like, it's kind of like you're stepping back in time,

you know, and this barn is very similar to like what my granddad built when he first came to the States. And so it's like, man, it's, you know, it's just, it's not what everyone's doing today, you know, and that's purposeful, you know, and it isn't that it's inefficient. It's just, it's different. Yeah. And I mean, so it's like from the cattle to the barn to, It's just all different, you know. And so I don't know. Yeah, a lot of thinking going into it, but it's good to think, but you got to take action too. Can't just sit there and think.

You got to keep moving. And having a good spouse helps with that too because she was kind of, hey, buddy, you know what I mean? And I needed that sometimes because, you know, probably because I was scared, you know. And but she kind of kept pushing me and making me move on stuff. And she's like, you've thought about this. You've done the work. You know, it's the right, it's the right move. And so I'm like, so I'm appreciative to have her because you need that balance.

I've got a great partner, you know, and just helping me keep moving the ball. So your operation, you know, in the conventional dairy world, you're usually working with a co-op, right? And you're selling the milk. Yeah, you have the cows sell, you take the milk to the co-op, right? And then they handle all the distribution. you are own the cows, you're bottling it,

you're taking it to the store and you're putting that sucker on the shelf. Like you're doing the whole nine yards, which is awesome. How difficult was it to build out that infrastructure and build out that process? We were talking about a little bit last night of just even getting audited was extensive.

Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, like we didn't know what we were doing, you know? Like I remember when we first the right after we got started it was like we were bottling and was our first shift and we got done and we took it to stores and we didn't have delivery trucks or anything like we we had ice chests you know and which is kind of crazy when you think about it like I'm I'm driving to a major retailer and unloading out of the back of a pickup into crates to walk inside and deliver my product. product, you know. And so like you said, as you get into it, it was like, man, it was, you know, I knew how to milk the cows, but I've never, I haven't been a milk processor. I mean, I'd done as much due diligence as I could, you know, and trying to learn it. And you're, and you're buying specialized equipment, you know, that serves one purpose. And it's expensive because it ain't

getting bought every day. And so it's just like all the pieces that are required and just like, again, the Lord has been so gracious because like we were just a bunch of rednecks out there. We didn't know. You know, like there's so many things that could have gone wrong that I know now, like down the road. It's like, well, like, sure, I can't believe we were doing things like that. And it's just like, but very difficult. But through it all, like even when we first were doing it, like talk about the ice chest, like I hired a distributor and they came to the farm and picked up our milk.

Well, man, it was, it was, they were taking a third of my check. You know, and I'm like, my father-in-law actually was like, I mean, we weren't going to have anything. Like he, he went out, because I didn't have anything. He went out and bought a refrigerated van. And we started making our own deliveries. He was your distributor. Yeah, he literally had a little, it was said the milkman on it, a little white cap. And he was making deliveries.

And, but I mean, that was something we figured out real quick. It's like, man, this is all the money. There was nothing like, we're doing all this work and we're going backwards, you know. And so just those quick. quick pivots and trying to figure out what would work and what wouldn't. But I didn't have it. I guess if you're asking like, oh, you knew how I didn't know. It's like you got into it and then something was exposed and it's like, all right, we got

to do this. Even to the point of like with the cows, it's like, you know, on the naive side of it, I'm like, well, how hard can it be to mote clean cows? Like I thought that's all there was to it. Yeah. And boy, was that wrong, you know. And then, you know, like learning through testing. And I feel more like a microbiologist today than I do a dairyman.

I know more about milk than I actually want to know. Yeah. Yeah, you made a great statement last night about a professor that you ran into. And what was his quote about dairy, about dairyman? Well, yeah, I was at Cal Poly in San Luis for a couple of years. And the very first processing class I took, he was the professor. and I was studying dairy science. And he said, you dairymen are all dumbasses.

Because you already know how to take care of the cows. But you don't know anything about processing. You don't know how your product sold, how the markets work, any of that. And it always, his name was Dr. Gillis. And he reminded me of Tom Scarrett from Top Gun, like the Marble Man, because he was always smoking. And I love that guy. And so for me, it was like, I wanted to ace every class. that I was in with that guy.

And so I learned some, you know, like that's kind of where it kind of perked the interest in that. But I've always thought that there's got to be a better way to do it, you know, like we were saying last time, like, I always got in trouble because I'm asking why, you know? And no disrespect to old guard, but it'd be like, well, this is how we've always done it. Okay, but why? I just want to understand the thought process behind it. that's not being disrespectful.

Right. And so like is, you know, if Sawyer asked you a question, my son-in-law, Dylan, asked me a question. I mean, I want to have the humility to be like, okay, because you guys look at things different. And it's a good perspective. And it makes me, your thoughts are valid. And so are mine.

And we're going to figure out, like, how do the two blend together? Yeah. And so, yeah, if that makes sense. Can we take a break because this rain is loud as shit? So let's take a break quick. Well, if for those of you listen, I apologize, we've had a fair amount of just some weird stuff happened today. Mother Nature just rained down a storm on us, unexpected.

We should have probably shot the podcast at 8 a.m. We were sitting around the dinner table last night or we were grabbing a drink. We were like, when do we want to shoot tomorrow? We were like, oh, let's do 10. And then. Yeah, but it was perfect. Yeah. So, like literally five minutes before that rain,

before it just opened up, I think this is about the loudest it's been in the barn when we've been here. Five minutes before that, my wife was out mowing the yard. Mom was mowing. We're putting in a septic tank for the barn to actually have a bathroom up here. So we're making progress. And somebody was doing dirt work. Rain came.

It's been a fun day of events. That all stopped. And then we just were like, what? Yeah. So everybody that thinks that this is just a studio or not actually in a barn, I'm here to tell you, you know, this is an actual barn. And we found a new leak from our fancy roof we put on. I think there's a piece of corner trim that might need some blackjack. Yep. So why don't you throw them the softball here? We could just keep rolling on this for the rest of the day. But some people might want to actually know about what you really do. And so. you know, you're a villain because you're poison the world with raw milk.

So what makes milk raw? I know it comes out as raw milk and we make it into something else. But what is it? What's the difference? What is involved in actually getting that to the store? Yeah. I mean, I can always, the big thing about, I would say the biggest difference is that raw milk is not denature. in any way. So when you pasteurize, and they're only going to be those and say, oh, it doesn't do

anything when you pasture. Well, it's just not true. I mean, that's not me saying that's just, we can just look at the science. It's not, it's not a, it's not a dis. It's not anything. It's just, it changes the makeup of the milk. And the biggest thing that happens is, is it destroys the lactase. Well, you need lactase. Lactase is what neutralizes lactose. So when you look at our country today and people say, well, I've got a milk intolerance. I can't drink milk. Well, it's typically because lactose is hard. Like they use it in candy and stuff like that. It's not easy to digest.

So if you don't have a naturally current enzyme in there to neutralize that. And I can use myself as case study. You know, I think we're, I mean, when I was a kid, I'd go down and I'd open up the tank, especially in the summer. I mean, it's 115 outside.

I'm like, I want something cold to drink. I'd get milk out of the tank and drink it. And it never, that probably wasn't really good raw milk. Because there's two types of raw milk. And again, caveat, I'm not dissing. I'm just saying there's milk for pasteurization and there's milk for consumption.

I make raw milk for consumption, you know, and everybody else is, if you're doing it on a commodity side, it's done for pasteurization. You talk about being a villain. Well, I mean, to me, like even within the industry, the crutch is the pasteurization, you know, like you can save it, you know, if you will. And if you really want to take a historical, look and look at where we're at today. And you go back into, I mean, pasteurization is new technology. Like, it's, it's barely over 100 years old. And so everybody was drinking milk on the farm.

You know, they had their cow and, and they did that. And then as Industrial Revolution came into play, and Louis Pasteur discovered this technology, I mean, I was watching this. I don't know if it's 100%, but I got a feeling it is. Like the Rockefellers had a lot of money created this technology to build this stuff out. Well, what do you do? You go lobby Washington, you know, and say, like, we got to ban this because raw milk got banned like, I think, in the 30s, you know? And so it's like, isn't that interesting, you know? And so here we are today. But what I've noticed is, is that it's different for every people group, like every ethnicity, if you will, you know, there's some ethnicities that just can't drink milk. It's just, but I have found personally that

if you haven't been able to drink milk, and I would be scared to death to step up to the plate to try it. If you're on the floor and your gut and you're just reeling because it hurts so bad, would you be really willing to even try? But I've had people that I've gotten emails from, I haven't had milk in 30 years. I can drink your milk. And I'm just like, huh, isn't that interesting?

And you'll see now within the marketplace, big push into A2. You know, everybody's talking about A2. I'm a little bit of a skeptic at times because anytime an industry pushed is super hard in one direction, I feel like we're always like, oh, we went too far and we got to come back the other way. And so like that's the big deal. And so A2 is a casing. Now if you can't drink raw milk and your stomach's still bothering you, now let's talk about casing contact. Maybe it's A2 will work for you.

But they've kind of, like I said, to me, the natural progression is if you can't drink milk, maybe try if you tried raw, it might work. for you. And if you still can't do that, now let's talk about casing. But in the stores, now you see A2, you see all this protein, you know, like super protein. And everyone's pushing into that market real hard because people want protein. You know, way used to be a discard in the cop. We're trying to figure out how to get rid of it, you know, sell it to the beef guys and they were mixing it into their stuffing. And now, like, it's one of the most coveted thing, if you will have a plant making, you know, way protein. I mean, it's like all the biopies. products, if you will, now are worth a ton of money. So that's kind of where I see. It's just like,

for me being a small processor, I can't really jump into that market like the other ones are because they can buy those. I don't think milk in the future is going to be sold necessarily on the fluid level. It's going to be dissected into pieces and sold as parts, you know. Okay. Just in like, you know, you're going to sell the way. You're going to sell the protein. You're going to do the lactose. You're going to have all these different things. It's like, I don't know that commodity milk in the future is going to really be for fluid consumption, you know. Yeah, so let's talk about that. What's the difference between raw milk, pasteurized milk,

and now then you see these drinks, bottled milk, whatever, that is ultra-pasteurized. Right, right. How does that work? Yeah, I mean, on the, you know, like you said, the raw obviously is not pasteurized. And then you've got, you know, there's different forms of pasteurization, you know,

high heat, short-temp, a vat pasteurization you'll see some smaller farms that will do that it's like they'll say like it's as close to raw you know because it's not it's maybe taken up to like 145 degrees and held it like 45 minutes i don't everybody's times vary but the ultra pasteurization is like shoot you know we can set this stuff on the shelf for like 60 days and i mean for a retailer that's a really that's a great great deal because like nobody wants to shrink product out right and so it's like When you can set something up there and like, don't have to worry about it. I mean, 60 days.

I mean, wow, you know. I think it's interesting because I've seen that. And it's kind of marketed like, so you would think, you know, in our consumerism world, it's like, well, ultra pasteurize is better than pasteurized because it's ultra, you know. But if you pick up a bottle of anything that's ultra pasteurized and you read the ingredients, for a bottle of milk, it's a pretty hefty, like, that's a pretty hefty ingredient list to get, and granted, they're making claims about how much protein it has and all that. But it's so interesting how marketing, I mean, you can literally market anything if you give somebody, some ad company,

enough money, they can spend anything. So, well, so what are, like, people that hate on raw milk, like, what's the big deal? Because, you know, I haven't, I've never had raw milk. I've always just drank it's from the store. That's how I grew up. It always sat well with me. I love milk. I've never dabbled in raw milk.

And I just, because it's just never been available, I guess. And there's this stigma about it. So what are the haters saying about it? What do they say, oh, you shouldn't drink raw milk because of this reason?

Yeah, I would say the, you know, obviously the biggest one would be, you know, the bacteria, you know, the potential of that.

and obviously that's that is a real concern but you know again not my data but like if i go to the cdc and i look at recall you know and i'm talking from vegetables to to milk i mean there really is no such thing as 100% safe food we know this right i mean it's it's not it's not possible um we talked about this living in a fallen world here we are trying to make beautiful stuff and it's just like it's it doesn't always work that way and that's not a get out of jail free card i'm just saying like we're going to do our work with excellence every day to provide what we feel is a very safe product um that has full nutritional benefit you know beneficial enzymes nothing's denatured in this deal you're getting the full gamut when you consume rock and and it's you know like i said

straight from the cow to the tank to the bottler to you I mean, it's as close to having your cow out in the backyard. Yeah. And that's what it used to be. And so, like a lot of folks, like I said, hating on it, it's just like, I think anytime you, and I know we are all like-minded in this, when you're thinking a little different, you're a weirdo. And it's like, okay, because I mean, I've known people that rolled their eyes at me and,

you know, and I've known these guys for years. I'm like, okay, I'm not doing this to impress you. and I wasn't doing it to be like at the time like this is the way and you all are wrong. I'm just like as I got into it and I started learning more about it and I could drink it. And I mean, I'm pound milk. And they're like, well, what about all that fat? I'm like, I think I'm doing okay. You know what I mean?

Like it's not like I'm, you know, and let's just be honest. As a culture right now, we're the most unhealthy that we've ever been. And so it's like you have no, you have no gut, you know, your gut is off. Everything starts with your gut. Your gut tells your brain that you don't feel well, right? So it's all about your gut health. And so this is creating a natural flora, if you will, within your gut. And if you, if you haven't been eating or doing that, like, it's a transition.

You don't, we don't, we don't get Jack like Sawyer overnight. Like it's a process, right? You know, you got to keep working out. And like, and that's, that's just diligence. that's commitment and and it's the same with food like you can work out all you want but garbage in garbage out if you don't eat good food you're not going to see the change right i mean i've done it you know i've looked at pictures of myself you know like where i'm like i started the journey and then a year it took a year i'm like wow like when you look at the picture it's like there's a real change but i my wife

will say that all the time it's like you can work out all you want but if you eat a garbage diet you're not going to really see the benefit it's it's it's about the inputs again, that are going to have that big change on everything. So yeah, I mean, people are always going to hate. I think it's scary, you know, not just about the product, but it's like if you, if you listen, we've learned this during COVID and different things. It's like, well, you're crazy. If you don't, okay, there's always going to be two sides. Like I just, I'm still going to ask questions. Like, I'm not saying that I need more information, you know? And it was like on this, the more information I got, I'm like, okay, okay, I can do this.

This makes sense to me. And here we are. Yeah, I think it's one of those things. People don't even realize the risk that they take every day. Sure. Consuming food at a restaurant or getting something from the grocery store. I mean, I've heard you talk about lettuce at the grocery store. Sure.

I mean, there's been E. coli breakouts. There's been, I mean, I got salmonella once. I've got food poisoning. And I don't know where it came from. But then I remember my mom finding an article about onions. Right. Having a salmonella. Right.

Cause in salmonella outbreak. And I remember I was like, well, I did go to Huot like not too long ago. That might have been something. I was going to save them and just say a Mongolian grill, but you just threw them under the boss. We're all pretty sure it came from the McCollian grill. Yeah, Mongolian grill, whatever. But all that to say, like, people go through that line, no problem with that stuff sitting out or they'll go to subway.

Sure. And it's been sitting out. Yeah. And they don't think twice about it. No. But all this negative press about. raw milk, I can kind of see what you're saying. It's like, there's, there's good apples, there's bad apples. I'm sure there's people that produce raw milk that don't do it to the

standard that you do it at. And there's lettuce producers that are the same way. But for whatever reason, we've just formed this whole broad-brust stigma around raw milk. Yeah. I mean, and like I said, I don't want to, I really don't want to play in the gray on it. Like in Arizona, for example, it's like obviously it's legal it's legal for retail i mean i'm state inspected i've stayed at my facility every month looking at my facilities my the dairy barn the production facility finished product samples all the things um yeah you have to test it like yeah you have to test it and the and the thing of it is is just like our standards here in the u.s are extremely low as far as like what is acceptable, which I always find interesting because like for like in Europe,

the standards are a lot more quote unquote laxed. Well, Europe's pretty healthy, you know, like we've been like you're driving around. I mean, there's obesity isn't is not walking around Europe and like they have nutrient dense food. Our food system now is just gotten, it is so sterile. You know, even from hand sanitizer to all that. I'm like, you grew up in the dirt, right? So did I. Like there's something about that getting in the dirt and rolling around. It's like you need that to create this gut health, if you will. And we just become such a sterile, sterile society.

I really think the pivot now, too, on that is that you're seeing a lot of younger folks like yourself. It's like, we got to get back to that, whether it's going outside, grounding, you know, I mean, just getting outside and touching the, touching the earth again. And so I feel like there's almost like a renaissance, if you will, that's happening. I 100% agree with you. I was just going to say, I mean, the timing of your business couldn't have been any better because I feel like we talked about this on it with our last guest. You know, my generation, it feels like we're adopting the new stuff, but we're not adopting it like the last decade where we're a little more skeptical. Yep. And we don't trust the media.

We don't trust the government. We don't trust the food system. We don't trust health care. and we're sprinting back to traditional ways a lot of times too. So it's like we're adopting new stuff and being skeptical about it. But we're also realizing, you know, consumerism and having everything be convenient is not the way. Right. We've done this for 40, 50. I mean, you remember, like we talked about this on our last episode, 80s. It was the greatest decade ever.

It was, oh, we can box all this stuff. and preservatives and everybody just trusted it. Yeah. Because it just came out. Yeah. And now we're kind of on the tail end of what did that turn into. Sure. Well, turned into a lot of people being unhealthy, a lot of people being depressed and not

walking enough and not having energy. And we wonder why. And I think my generation is just like, we got to do something different. You can trace it all back to new Coke. New Coke. When they came out with the new Coke formula, that was the sign that it was all going to hell in a handbasket. Yeah. And we've, we've suffered ever since.

Yeah. Well, and I mean, really like our generation is probably the biggest rablat. Oh, if you want it. It's like we, like my grandmother's, you know, scratch cook and stuff. And then I remember, I remember my grandmother getting a microwave. Yep. And I'm like, what is this? You know, well, you put stuff in it and it heats it up.

Like she would always have to heat, you know, up on the, she has cast iron and doing all that. And all of a sudden she's got a microwave. And she's cooking in and this. And it's just like, and then the. the box dinners and all this stuff. But it's like, you know, our generation, you know, like, that was all we knew. Yeah, but I'm saying like, you know, our parents are living, you know, and I mean, I don't know what's going to happen to us. You know what I mean? Because we were like, we were getting experimented on the whole time. Well, we talked about that on the last episode. Like,

my, my mom, she embraced all that. Like, I remember as a kid, everything was made from scratch. And then I remember, I remember the treat of having a TV dinner. Like, we thought that was awesome. That is super cool. And you go to the freezer, get a frozen pizza. And, but she bought her time back. Yes. And their generation trusted media. And if, if it was in the grocery store, it's fine.

Sure. Because they wouldn't sell it if it wasn't okay. Sure. And they bought their time back. Well, then now we're the generation, we're the lab rats because we got fed all that. And that was our frame of reference. So when we started having families. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Well, all the kids will ease chicken nuggets. All right. Well, let's not fight that fight. We'll give them chicken nuggets. Right. But you even see that quality. Like I remember being in high school. And I'll tell my kids this. Like if you went to McDonald's or Wendy's or Jack in a box, I mean, they were in the back. Like they were grilling that burger. Like you could see them flipping in the back and it's sizzling and putting the cheese on. Like it was like it. What we have today now in Culvers and Freddy's and in and out was what we had when we were in high school. school. So you've got like, now you got bottom, bottom dweller here. Yeah. Yeah. And then this is kind of the

elite fast food, if you will. And so it's just like, or, you know, it's even more than that. You're getting into like specialty burger shop or something like that. But I just like, I'm like, man, that used to be really good. Like, I remember. Yeah. And now I'm like, you, you smell that whopper and I'm like, oh, it smells good. Yeah. It's like garbage. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, oh, yeah. So. Well, let's talk about, um, So you, today, you are in sprouts in Arizona, and that's an Arizona-based grocery store. And I mean, that's a pretty amazing accomplishment for a startup raw milk facility. So how did that come about?

Yeah, it, yeah, I just happened to be the avenue, you know, that the Lord had for our business. Yeah, I had heard that Spruly. Sprouts wanted to carry it in Arizona. And I had, I'd found out who the category buyer was, and I'd sent an email. And, what is? This is about two months out. And, um, from you going into production. Correct. And so, like, you had done all this.

Like, you, you'd burn the ships. We're building this. We're doing it. I was, I was betting on it, you know. But you didn't have anybody to buy the milk. I had no paperwork on it, you know. And, um, balls. Oh, man. I hadn't heard anything in a week and I'm getting super depressed. And I think I was talking to one of my friends. He's like, man, want you check, you know, be sure.

So I called back. I checked the email and I had one letter off on the email address and sent the email again. Literally sent it. And I'm walking back to the barn. And I get in it's a response from the guys. Like, I'd like to meet with you. So yeah. So my wife and I went up to corporate and it's like you see in a movie.

Like there's all these guys with their idea, their brand. They got their billboards out. Everybody's going in to make the pitch. And it's like a revolving door in and out, in and out. It's like maybe 10 minutes. And so like I'm telling her, because we're pretty stressed at the time. I'm just like, okay, I go in, tell them a little bit out. I had my iPad.

I had kind of like a little bit of a video set up on there. I'm going to show them a little bit, talk a little bit about what we do, ask if they have any questions and in and out. And so made my little pitch. And I said, I don't want to take a lot of your time. Do you have any questions for me? And he's like, I have time. He's like, I want you to start at the beginning.

And so we were in there for about an hour and a half. And I always have to say, too, I said, if they decide they want to do business with us, please do not cry on the guy's desk. And so, yeah, we came out and he's like, we want to do business with you. And so like, I remember as soon as we walked out the door, like she was, she had a death grip on my hand. and there was a stairwell and we went to that stairwell and just just we're both just sobbing. Yeah. And yeah, so that's kind of how that happened.

But, you know, Sprouts starting in Arizona and I mean, they're a huge corporation now and they've been a really great, great partner. But a very much I would say for my experience was a very family feel like sprouts grew with me. We grew that category in Arizona. I mean, the reason people know, and I'm not saying this from, you know, you know, pat on the back, but the reason people know about raw milk in Arizona is because of the work that my family did to create that category within Sprouts. And so like I said, it was just a continue, like small, small, small. We have always, we had always been chasing the demand, you know, because it's just continued to grow over the last 12 years. So you probably had like

a little bit of terror. So you're almost done. You're too much. months from start to produce, you don't have anywhere to sell this. You walk in there, you come out, you got it. So you got a little bit of terror walking in there. You got it. So then were you like, okay, holy cow, now we actually have to make, like now we actually have to make it and deliver it. How the heck are we going to do that? Like it had to just be a roller coaster of emotions as you're, because each step of the way is fantastic, but terrorizing at every step. Yeah, it totally is. And like you said, it's just you, You know, you learn those lessons real quick as far as like, you know, we talk about plants and that plants are balancers.

You know, our co-op is a balancer. And they're like as if you produce milk, consider the co-op, you're done. You don't have to worry about making those decisions. What are we going to do? What are we going to make it into? All those things. I have all those thoughts. I have all those things on my shoulders, even though I'm a small, we have a small plant.

So I have to figure out where this product's going on, what we're doing with it. what business we want to try to solicit, what we don't want to do. Like, I don't want to do business with everybody, you know, I want, I'm not just looking for a place to set it in there. I want, I want real partnerships, you know, people that see value in our brand. And like I said, like minded. And I see like, I like your brand. I like what you're doing.

I want to be a part of that. So like a lot of you look, Sprouts obviously has the majority of our share, but like the people that we do business with outside of that. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair. Every style, every home. I mean, I believe in what they're doing too. So what year did you start delivering milk to? We started in 2014.

I'll never forget because I got, I was inspected by, the state on my birthday in July and we got the permit to operate on my birthday and we moved cows in the next day great time a year right in the middle of summer you know about 110 you know and uh yeah so that was a whole that was a whole day like just getting them there and i mean you know you reflect back on what it was it's like when i you know we didn't have like i told you before i don't have any money like even to the point of shades like I didn't have like a real shade I had I had netting it was basically a glorified coffee filter you know it was enough to give them a little bit of a break but I mean like I had no protection from the elements and then I told you about like we had we had rain and

flood and I mean if it could go wrong it did you know those first three months and then you're really questioning like what have I done you know what I mean and I'm sure she thought what have I done too? You know, but it's like my mother-in-law, you know, she's always, she always believed, I mean, not to say my wife didn't, but it's like, when you're discouraged, it's like, you know, just kept on pushing, kept on, you've got this, you know, you know what you're doing. And baby steps, man, just keep on crawling, you know, and that's it. Like, you got to crawl before you can walk, and we definitely crawled.

Yeah. You've said, I mean, we talked about this last night. You want to build this, like you're North Star with this brand. is to make it the most premier luxury milk brand in the whole state of Arizona and be the raw milk brand of Arizona. Sure. What do you, how long do you feel like that could take? And do you feel like you're on track to accomplish that?

Yeah, I think we're on track. I mean, we've already done it. I mean, you know, they talk about, what is it, imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Yeah. You know, like, I've had numerous people come in and tried, they'll come out and act like customers, you know, and want to scope out the place. And when you, they're asking weird questions, you're finally like, hey, man, you know, take a look around. You know what I mean? Like, just tell me what you're trying to do.

I mean, just because somebody, you know, you could, I could tell them all day long, well, you just need to do this. That doesn't mean they're going to execute. Yep. And so it's like, do you really have the, you guys get it? But like, do you have the 365 in you? You know, are you, we're working Christmas and Eastern Thanksgiving and all those things. I mean, I missed a lot of things. And that's what it takes to get it done.

And it's even more than that. Farman is just hard enough. But now put even more stress on to create this quality and get it to the store. And, and it just, it all keeps going. So I believe that we already have, we have created that. I think what it really is is bringing even more awareness. to the marketplace about why we are that. Yeah.

Because I'm not saying someone couldn't replicate, but it's going to be pretty tough to replicate what I've done and on all the different avenues I've taken. And not everybody knows all my stuff, you know. I mean, I'll share with you, but, you know, I mean, you're not going to get into every corner of my mind. Right. And that's just good business.

But we have a plan. And we're working at executing on that. and just figuring out we've got a lot. We've had a lot going on here the last four months. And there's some pretty exciting things happening here in the next few months. So I'm excited about the future. And I think the timing is right now more than ever. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I feel like, like for me, I guess I always knew what raw milk was just from my grandparents. and just knowing that, you know, people used to just milk for their own family and all that. But I didn't realize it was a thing like coming back until a few years ago. But when you started that, I mean, you were really, you were one of the early people doing it. And then I asked you this last night,

but I bet you COVID just, I feel like COVID just flipped a switch for a lot of people. And from what was, that like? One, what was that like trying to keep produce and deliver and all that during it? But what did that do to your business? Yeah, COVID was really, yeah, it was really eye-opening. That was probably, it was the busiest time in our business. We really kind of blew up during COVID. And it was a scarcity mentality, toilet paper, whatever. You couldn't find it. Now, it was not funny, But the reason that people had emptied the milk shelf, my milk is not cheap.

So it was the last milk sitting in the shelf. Like you'd go in, the whole place is empty except for this little deal. And so people were picking it up because it was the only thing that was in there. And then we were getting calls. Hey, I just bought a bottle of this. Can you tell me what this is about and explaining, you know, what it was? And so we would deliver. And then usually within, it could be an hour and a half, two hours.

we're getting a call from the store that they were already sold out of our milk. Could we bring more? No. See you next week. You know what I mean? So it's like, I got all these stores. I got to take care of. And it's funny as I think about that now, the way it is now when you go into the grocery store

is you got that whole case of milk and my milk sitting here on the bottom. This is all full and where my milk sits is empty. Yeah. Because people literally will be at the store waiting. They know our delivery. day, what time we're normally there. You can come into the store and you might have five to as many as 15 people standing there waiting. And as that case manager sliding bottles out, people are just grabbing them as fast as they're coming out. So like we kind of created something through all

that because people really started thinking about their health. That's right. And again, I'm not a hard sell. I'm not like, you need to drink my milk. That's never been my deal. I'm like, I will talk to you about it, how we feed them, what we do it. Why I believe. it's important, but at the end of the day, we all make decisions for our family. We all make choices. We feel that this is important for us personally. I mean, do you drink your own milk? I drink my own milk. My family drinks my own milk. My grandsons drink my milk. So it's like, okay. You know, so I stand behind it. I mean, we consume our products. So it's, you know, but it is like that was really, the business really took off in 20.

And not to make, everyone had really tough situations. And I mean, I know there were people that couldn't work. And like, but for us, we were tired. Like,

we were grinding, like just trying to keep up and, you know, and then you got the masking and all the stuff trying to figure out how to get into stores how we're doing this.

It was, it was interesting for sure. So who's your average customer today versus when you started? Because I'm sure it's changed as things have evolved. Yeah. And talk about,

the ethnicity group, different groups, because there's some that don't drink milk at all, but you also said there's some that all they drink is raw. Right. So touch on that. Well, I think in like our group, like the millennial, you know, these new, like my, even my daughters, these new moms who are wanting to provide the best for their baby. And that's like from food to like, even like I said, we're questioning the doctors now, vaccine schedules.

you know like my daughter my oldest is a PA she's super smart and she's done her research and it's like she's not saying she's not going to vaccinate but she's probably not going to give 40 of them right at right off the bat you know what I mean like we're going to stage this out and we're seeing more cases of you know with autism now and especially in boys it's kind of like just but i'd say that target market is it's probably that millennial gal like to 35 um and then like in our jayette generation. There's there's some of that. I think that the male demographic is is a market that is going to grow. And like my son-in-law, Dylan, like that's something we talk about, whether it's gyms, you know, CrossFit community, those types of things. Like we're seeing that. It's just like,

people that want to eat clean. Yeah. And I mean, and it's a good, like you can go downstairs and grab some muscle milk or you could just chug one of my, my halves. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, it's going to, you know what I mean? That's kind of what we're trying to tell them. It's like, hey man this is actually nutritious for you too and you're going to get the same effect i just so that's kind of where i see it on the ethnicity side it's just like you know love this country man it's the greatest country in the world a melting pot i mean we're all i'm immigrant you're we're all immigrants here and so it's like you know i think like the latin america side of things um obviously india is a big one i mean they're they're coming in here

I mean, they're bringing a skill set that's contributing to our economy. And a lot of them, too, it's like they grew up drinking that. Like, we were out to dinner and I had a young lady in her mid-30s. I had one of my shirts on. She's like, I'm so sorry to bother you. She's like, where do I find this? And I was like, well, you can find it at a store? She's like, well, is there any way that you could like bring it to me?

I'm like, well, where do you live? She's like, well, I'm right around here. And I'm like, well, what do you think you need? She's like, well, I've got a group of ladies. I don't know, she's probably 50, 60 gallons a week. You know what I mean? And I'm like, that's just from having it. But I'm saying like, you know, that's a big deal.

So it's like that's important to their culture because they make like cultured products and different things like that. So I think the European side of things. Yeah, there's just a big, there's a big group that is underserved. Yep. And so that's kind of where I see some things moving in that direction. Let's switch gears to family. So you have three daughters, son-in-law involved in the operation. You get to work with family every day.

And you said, you know, last night that your daughters kind of were involved in different stages of getting this thing off the ground and operating it. Was it always a goal for you to bring the next generation back to the farm? Or has that kind of just evolved as this has evolved? Like, talk about family involved. Yeah. Yeah, obviously having the girls, it wasn't that they weren't equipped. Like, I've always, you know, I'm a girl dad. I would say even like with, I saw this early on with my dad.

Like, my dad had his dairy manager back when I was in high school was a woman. Like that was kind of unheard of in the industry. Like she was running the show. And so obviously I love women. I have daughters. And I have gals that work for me too. like it wasn't that if my girls wanted to run with it that I wouldn't have been up for that but I didn't see that happening so I really wasn't making any legacies if you will and so I was kind of

like until you know thinking someday that we'll sell this and that will be the end of that and that's fine but then like my son-in-law Dylan you know he he came to me and bugged me for about six months about wanting to come and work at the farm and he had a really good job he was in sales you know And I just kind of kept saying, buddy, you don't want to do this. He's like, no, I want to. And so he came and he's crushing it. And he's like I said, never been around for him, you know. And so me, I wish I could do the matrix and just plug them in to my brain.

And so like, that's what he's just, he's like, I need this from you. And so we both have been grinding so hard the last couple years that that time has been tough because like we've implemented so many new things. but he won't he doesn't think he's he doesn't think he knows he he knows a ton you know and he's already starting to look at things the way I would look at it and think about it but also too with different perspective and that's a thing like he he'll say things to me and I'm like it's great idea you know like he's looking at things very differently than I do and a lot of like are different if you will future market strategies are his thoughts and um and so between he and my daughter Chloe, you know, like I've had the most fun in the last two and a half years

working with my kids. Oh, man, I mean, people complain about working with family. I mean, this, this has been the greatest gift. And like I said, from every aspect, like, you know, my mother-in-law does the books, you know, so it's like, you know, she's sending me stuff like, you know, do I pay this? Do I, you know, it's just like we all kind of work together. They've all served me in some form or fashion, you know, getting things done like during. when we talked about that auditing, you know, it's like I, my oldest daughter was helping me with the audit. My middle was outside doing stuff and just, she's Jack can do anything. My youngest says it just, you know, she's cracking the whip. Like, you know, I just gave her a list

and said, I want these done, tell these people what to do. So I've had help from everybody. And then I've got my, you know, my wife sitting here just kind of pushing me, you know, and encouraging me. But yeah, so family. We complain about family, but it's really important. I mean, none of this has been possible without family, you know. None of it. You know, I couldn't have done it. And, you know, we've, we talked about last night friends and acquaintances, right?

It's like a lot of people I like. I enjoy time talking to you, but it's like if you're somebody that I've called and talked to you about this business, you know, you know who you are. You know what I mean? Like, I don't talk to a lot of people about it. There's people I do. And it's just like those people have helped support. But the family, yeah, it's just they were the ones there in the beginning. You know, we were, we'd be getting done and girls would come out.

It would be me and the girls and my wife and the processing room, bottling milk. And that's how it was. We couldn't afford labor. I mean, we, you know, we were like the Waltons, you know. So, but just great memories, you know, in there too. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. You are, so you're a decade in or better in this direct-to-consumer.

Wow. Some direct-to-consumer direct to the grocery store. What would you say was your biggest, like, blind spot in doing this that you were like, you didn't see that coming? Yeah. Or hardest, hardest part of it. I didn't know. It's not for the fan of heart.

like you're all in like don't don't even think about it unless like because you're going to want to quit you this is this is real it's relentless is what I would say yeah um and that you are always thinking and you're always thinking about what's next and and there's very little downtime you know like your time is I think as entrepreneurs we think and that's the thing how we take back our time, you know? And it's like, that's something that I don't know about right now. And because it's just been constant. And I'm not complaining. Like, that's the thing. I am happy to do the work. And like I said, I feel like the Lord just keeps, I'm trying to keep up with him right now. He keeps throwing stuff in front of me. And I'm like, hang on. You know what I mean? I'm like running,

trying to catch up because that's just kind of what it is. And I'm like, okay, you just keep opening those doors. and we're just going to keep, we're going to get there. We're just keep moving. I mean, sometimes I'm running. Sometimes I fell. I crawled. I'm just, I'm just trying to kill. But it is, it's just there's always going to be a problem.

My wife had said something the other day. Like we had, oh, it was maybe a month ago. Then if it could go wrong, it went wrong. I mean, every day was something. And, but through that, I'd be like, I don't remember, I don't remember what it was. But she's like, man, you know, like yesterday. I'm like yesterday. What are you talking about?

She's like, will you remember like this? I was like, oh man, I totally forgot about that. I literally had already forgotten about it because I'm like, problem,

evaluate, solution, move on and move on, you know, like I don't have time to dwell on, you know, we're all going to fail. We're all going to,

you know, like, okay, I don't do it again, you know, or like I said, ask somebody a lot smarter than you to help you to not make the stupid mistake.

And so that's kind of, that's it. it's just, but it is, the blind spots is like, you really don't see them coming, you know, it's like you do your best, but it's like I really tried to create why I didn't have any. And I want friends that are going to push back into me and tell me that I'm an idiot. If you don't have somebody like that to tell you you're off, you know, you need to find some new friends. Yeah, they're not your real friends.

And so like, I got friends that have, they've frustrated me, you know, with some things that they've said and you're looking at this wrong, but you need that guy. and to really help you look and see it all the way through. And that's, I'd say, it's helped me not have those blind spots. And I didn't always like the message, but I'm thankful that they said it to me, you know. You know, you talked about balance. When we, I feel like when we started, we would always ask guests about work life balance. and I think what we've learned through all the guests we've had

is if you're driven and you have something that you're trying to build, there is no work-life balance because... And there's no use of beating yourself up about it. Sure. Because until you get to the other side of it, there isn't. It's all... And there might never be because if you're wired that way, it's a blessing and it's a curse.

Like I always say that. It's a blessing and it's a curse because when you're built for that, when you don't have it, you don't have the challenge. You don't have the problems to solve. I mean, for me anyway, I feel purposeless. I don't have purpose. I don't feel like I'm sitting on my hands and I don't do well with that. I'm stagnant.

And if you're just built that way, like it's going to be the next, there's going to be another conquest that you're going to just keep fighting for. And yeah, that's another pattern that we've just recognized is there's no balance. I try my best to ground myself. And I think you can find balance within your day if you're intentional with it. And I think people that are driven need to try to do that a little bit. And I think faith is obviously one of those things that's probably worked for you to kind of, you know, bring yourself back to what matters. Well, and even at that, like I was just thinking if you.

if you think about like what's the heart what's the heart posture behind the motivation like why are you pushing into this and we can say it's relentless um i i i wasn't i wasn't driven by money that wasn't why i started this i'm just like my giftedness is i know how to work with cows what how do i make a living to care for my family and so um but my head because it was relentless and my head was down like I didn't really even realize, you know, what the business was doing because I have complete and total trust in my mother-in-law. And so it's like, I would ask, I'm like, well, can we do this? She's like, yeah, you can do that. Because that's the thing.

Like, even at that, like, we, I think we discussed this last night. I'm like, I don't have a bank, you know, I am the bank. And it's not sexy working with cash, you know, especially when you don't have any when you first start. And so it's like, you know, Ramsey, Dave Ramsey would say, act your wage. you know and that's kind of those are true words and so it's like it's it's not fun like when you've had life at a certain level to go backwards you know and not be there and have to say no i mean the people that we said yes to are our kids like when i say truly like people like to use sacrificial you know it's like we had to sacrifice you know for our kids and i'm not saying that like poor us

i'm just saying we want to do that we wanted to do that for them we didn't want this to impact them any more than it had to. But like, what I love that happened through this is it created that grit and it created something where you are truly thankful, you know, you're thankful for every blessing, you know? And when you give your kid, when we give them a gift, like they actually truly appreciative and thankful. It wasn't an expectation. It wasn't anything. And what a blessing, you know, just to be. So if, I mean, you don't see God's purpose through it all, but on the other side of this. Like he's made me so thankful. And so like, like you said last night, money's a gift. You know, it's money is not, money's not the problem. It's the love of money. That's what it talks about.

And so if that's your heart, like, and you got to check yourself and you got to ask the Lord to check yourself too. Like what's driving this? It's like, okay, if it's not about that. And I mean, we're called to be good stewards and we're called to it's his money. So it's giving it back to him in our form of thanks with a joyful heart, not out of obligation. I don't deserve, like, I'm just so blessed that he would continue to use me as this avenue right now. And then the exciting part is having my son-in-law and my daughter are part of this now and their desire to take this. And now having, you know, their son and then my other grandson, it's like, I've talked with Dylan about this. I'm like, if your son or daughter, whatever doesn't want to do this someday and your nephew comes to you and says,

hey Uncle D, I'd really like to be a part of this. I'm expecting you to do that for him. You know what I mean? And keep it to where I don't care. I don't care about my last name. Right. It doesn't matter. You know what I mean?

And I mean, as far as I'm concerned, like my son-in-laws, they are my sons. I don't look at them as the married-ins. They, they're my kids. And so when you, and that's something too about family. When you treat them like that, you know, and they come in, it's like, they're, they're my blood as far as far as I'm concerned. that's awesome man what uh speaking of family one more thing like what has it been hard to wear the dad hat boss hat you know kind of at the same time like how do you balance that you know of being the dad but also hey yeah because that's you know working with family we know what that's like you know

it's it's not the easiest thing in the world but it is definitely damn rewarding if you could figure out the right mixture there. We really try to shut it off when we're together, especially if we do Sunday dinners at the house. I mean, we'll say, sorry, just a couple, we got a couple quick things, then we're done. We're not talking about this. Like when we're together, we want to be together.

We want to be intentional. We're not going to let Trisha hear this point. Yeah, we're terrible. So every Sunday dinner at our house before my kids come, Trisha looks me straight in the eye and she says, now we're not going to talk about business the whole time, all right? You and Sawyer don't need to be doing this or Clay and Sawyer don't need to be talking about real estate, all right? And so then we, you know, we muscle through.

And I think boys might be a little bit different because we have a really hard time not just we can try. Sure. But when you're passionate about something, somehow it always. veers off into that and then I look across the table and Trish is just yeah no but that's good that's a good like I said it's good it's good rule it's it's a part of our life and it my wife will say this like it it is it's just it's part of our DNA like and and we really we have to discuss certain things and and everybody's chipping in in different different ways. And so it's just like it is part of the conversation. But when we're together,

I really try to try to turn it off and, and, you know, depending on season of life. I mean, you getting started now, you know, like you can either work hard now and get there and delayed, you know, gratification, if you will, say no. Or you can start later. And, you know, so for me, it was like I just this wasn't what I saw in my life but here we are and so it's like my kids understood um to the best of their ability you know and I tried to be present even at that like there were nights where it's like you know my girls were cheering and it's like I just got done milking it's an hour drive to the school my wife's like don't don't come it's going to be over I'm like I'm on my way you know and even if I got there for the last couple minutes just so they could see that I was there

in the stands. I mean, that's what it was. And it's like, I had to say no to a lot of things, you know, and but what I guess for me, what I was happy about is just like my wife is a great, well, my wife is a Proverbs 31 woman is what she is. Sorry, guys. No, you're good. She's held, she's held it down. And I'm so thankful for that. but what she like she's a wife she's a mother she's a friend um she's all those things and like i i didn't i could i could i could work myself to the bone i don't care but the fact that she could be there you know or at least that she was there like i'll do whatever i have to do to make that happen like there were talks at times like well maybe i should get a job i'm like no your job

is here like i'll do whatever i got to do make sure that that stays that way and if we have to say no some things to make that happen so be it but that's how important it was to me is that she that she was able to do that and the lord allowed that um but yeah it just it's it's been a road man and it's not all it's not all it's a long story and it's like you know a lot of and you'll have this you have a little success and somebody shows up on the on the on the tail end of things and go hey it must be nice i'm like bro you have no idea you have no idea what what's all in this and like you know that's why it's good with the reflecting back and looking at photos and seeing those reels and like, oh my gosh. Like this is, I mean, this is where we were. This is where it started. Man,

it's wild. So yeah, pretty crazy. It's amazing. Now, you definitely, you guys make a really good team. It seems like. And it's awesome to see the relationship you guys have. And, you know, as a young guy looking for a wife, what are, what are some tips? Like, what do you, in today's world, there's a lot of things broken, right? But if you were talking to, a young man about looking for a wife? What what advice would you give? Well, first off, I mean, as a as a man, I mean, we're called to love our wives. And even like with the, with the agriculture that we do and it's it's not no one likes because maybe it's not PC anymore, but what we do is we're animal husbandry. Like think about that term. Like we're caring for him.

And a true man does that and serves his family. And I'll have people that ask when they get married. what's the secret to say I'm married? I'm like, die to self, you know, serve the spouse. And I can be, you know, I didn't always do that well. But it's really about putting her needs before myself. And you want that. Like you, what you need to do is you don't, as a young, you don't, you don't need, you need to see that that woman is on fire for the Lord, that she loves the Lord. And she wants to be a wife and a mother. I don't have any problem with you working, you know, if that's, you know, Everybody's story is different. But for me, what was attractive about, I knew that my wife today, her biggest dream was to be a mom, you know, and she wanted to make a house a home.

And boy, does she make a house of home? And so that was beautiful. That was attractive to me, that femininity. I don't want a date a dude. You know what I mean? I'm not saying in the sense of the guy, but I'm like, I want a woman. I want the complementary side, the femininity that she brings. and softens the edges on me, you know?

And because, like, you know, she's tough, you know. And she sets me straight, you know, and points me back. And she's the one that'll call out the blind spots. If anyone's going to do it, it's her, you know. And I always say, no one likes to hear that you suck. And sometimes I do, you know, but quick to forgive. Get real comfortable. I told my kids, phrases, I am.

sorry, will you please forgive me? Like, if you can't say that, I mean, that's a big problem, because you're going to say it a lot. And so get comfortable with those phrases and mean it, you know, and change. Like, I'll have people say to me, not in a positive light, but, man, you've really changed. Boy, man, I hope so. Thank you. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And so that's it like change is a part of it and and as we get older and the Lord gives us a little bit more wisdom a little bit more discernment but you're not just marrying the girl you're marrying her whole family um so that's a very big consideration is that what does she come from you know what I mean like I've got a great family um not just great just with her folks but like even extended like her

aunts I was one of the first to marry into their family and like all her aunts and uncles and her cousins and I love this family it's a great family and so um it's a it's a whole it's a whole view but yeah i mean she's got to be she's got to be walking with the lord i mean you got to start there i mean you need to be it says in the bible be equally yoked you know um and it's talking about that context like there can be differences that's fine you know i mean i don't we don't need to be exactly alike you know but and i like that variety it's like you know she brings different perspective, but that's the basis of it. And just that you love the Lord and you're committed to each other. And you're not going to quit. You know, everyone wants to quit today. There is no quit,

you know. Yeah. It's great, man. You're full of wisdom. I love it. I love it. Okay, let's go rapid fire here because we're getting close to the end. So answer these as rapid fire as you can. Sure. But just whatever you think. So number one is hardest part. about farming in Arizona? Just volatility of the markets. You know, I'm tied into commodity agriculture. It impacts me. Even though I'm a small guy, I mean, I'm still watching the markets and seeing like,

you know, if I get stuff bought right, you know. So I'd just say it's always going to be volatility. It even impacts me, even with a premium brand. Yeah. Yeah, you're no different than anybody, dairy. Your single biggest expense I'm assuming is probably feed. Is it? Feeding packaging.

Did we even touch on what you feed? I don't think so. That's interesting. All I feed, like I said, is, yeah, I just feed alfalfa. I feed a little bit of, I'll feed some Sudan grass and barley. That's it. But again, that roller coaster ride is, like I said, I mean, I saw in our market, I saw, hey, get up, you know, close to $400 a ton.

Yep. And then, I mean, when we started, I was paying $140 a ton. You know, so it's just like every year, you just, don't know. And I've got outside. I've got Saudi in my market. I've got China in my market. You know, so it's like, it's hard to compete with oil money, you know. Yeah. So, and everyone wants volume, which I do feed volume. But yeah, it's for, again, it's the whole deal. Quality over quantity is my, my motto at the farm. And so premium inputs for our cows that I think makes beautiful milk. And, yeah. What's the best trait that you possess?

that has made you. Really, what do you think is the best trait that you bring that's gotten you where you are right now? Optimism. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of people, I'm like, you know, shoot, man, I'm, you know, I'm drowned. Well, you know, she probably, my wife would be like, man, you're sitting there.

You're, you're drowning and you're still like, I, I've got this. You know what I mean? I would say I'm pretty optimistic. Yeah. Lemonade out of lemons. Yeah, pure optimist. I think you got to have that. Best way to drink raw milk.

Is it cold? Is it with cookies? Is it, what's the best, like, combo or way that you're like, man, this hits different? Well, yeah, I mean, I know, like, my wife puts it in coffee every day. I like, like, cold brew, you know, like, if I really want to get the nutritional value out of what it is, I don't want to put it in, you know, scalding hot coffee. But so for me, like, she'll a lot of times she'll have coffee. in the afternoon. She's like,

you like, you want, yeah, absolutely. So that's how I like to drink it. Yeah, that's something we might,

I know this is rapid fire, but for people, so obviously, raw milk is a premium product. However, if you're going to buy it,

you probably shouldn't buy it and turn around to waste it by either baking with it or put in hot things because you're basically micro doing what pasteurization does.

So if you're going to, if you're going to spend the money to buy raw, milk, put it in cold things or drink it cold. Right. And I would say if most people drink it, but even at that, like it is a, it's a quality milk. So it's like if you bake with it or cook with it, it's a, it's a premium ingredient too. Right. And so there's still value in that. But if you're looking for your own health, yeah, I mean, and that's it. I think most people are drinking it or putting in something cold. Like if you're putting it in hot, I mean, she does it every day.

And that's fine. That's what she wants to do. But she needs her coffee and her cream. You know, I mean, that's what she does every day. Well, and what's the average cream content? Because what you're selling is whole milk. Right. Raw.

Right. What's the? I would say on average, like we're probably running, oh, probably between a four and a half, five percent butterfat, you know, just depending on the season. You know, cows are stressed in the summer. It might drop a little bit. But it's like, it's not the extremes, you know, like, and again, I'm not drinking Jersey milk's like drinking butter. I don't want to, I don't like that oil slick on my, you know,

the back of my tongue and stuff. So it's like, you know, and the Holstein's is like, you can get the fat out of them, but it's kind of like drinking more like water. You know what I mean? It's right there in the middle. It's the perfect balance. And it's just, I don't feel there's any aftertaste to it. Like when you're drinking, it just kind of goes down smooth. And so, yeah, I'm, I'm always going to promote this cow. I just think they make the best moat. I really, you make me really want to try. I'm going to have to come down there and give it a whirl because you're like, I love milk. So you're just, yeah, I'm going to have to make a trip to Arizona. What is the biggest lie the dairy industry tells the public?

Well, yeah. I don't know. It's tough to say it's like, you know, it's not all the same, right? I guess that's it's just not. Yeah. I mean, if it was all the same, then why are there so many different milk brands in the store? Yeah. You know, and so I guess that's the thing.

It's like milk, milk is milk. I get it in theory, but it's not, you know. And I mean, we talk about this. It's just like there's so many different avenues that people are pushing into and regenerative and all these different things. And then that's great. But it's just like, if it was all the same, it should all be labeled the same. It's not all the same.

Yeah. So, and just that generic, if you will, bland, like, average, like, you don't need to advertise for milk. you know, like on a national level, like, what is that even? Do you really think those ad dollars are doing anything? Like, man, I saw this and I'm going to, the best milk campaign they ever had was got milk. Yeah. That was, that was the best. I heard you guys talking about like Sam Elliott with beef.

Best ever. Yeah. You know what I mean? Something that's stuck. But, yeah, I mean, people now it's like they want to know even more, you know, and why is this different and whatever else. So it's just like drink more milk. It's not getting it done, you know? completely independent snarky comment.

Skim milk should be banned. Yeah, skim milk should be banned. Like when I go to somebody's place and they're like, hey, you want a piece of pie, want milk with it. And they're like, we got skim. I'm like, nah, forget it. Yeah. Don't want it.

Yeah, I had a friend like that that all the, all they drank in the house was skim. And I was just like, I'm good. I'm good. I'll just have water. Just a travesty is what that is. It's basically water. I mean, you might as well just drink water. Okay.

Last thing before we, we send this thing off. We have a segment on the show. tip of the hat. You got a nice hat on right now. Who's somebody in your life? What's a brand you use or a product that you use every day that you want to say, man, they're doing it right. I want to tip my hat to them. Well, obviously it's my family. I mean, I've talked about them. Like, that's the big, the big tip, my wife. I haven't really heard anybody talk about brands. But like when I look at, like, if I was talking about a brand that I think is like, wow, you talk about just pivoting, doing something. I think Yeti is

what they've done and with all the competition that they've had in there. And I'm a big proponent of Yeti. I've got coolers at the farm. I've got stuff like we we packaged milk, move it in there. But to charge such an insane amount of money for a cooler that actually works, I just think what they've done, it's just like, wow.

And they keep they keep we keep coming back they keep sucking me back in you know and I buy something else and rotate them out and stuff like that but yeah I guess like for a brand like I really really premium

like it's Yeti you know what I mean like well you can get this cooler for 200 bucks less I don't I want this one like I remember when I got my first Yeti cooler I was like I mean I was like oh my gosh this is so great you know yeah they've done an amazing job of their product offering of a coolers, their main one, but they have every little thing

that they've come out with. Like, they become a lifestyle brand. People wear Yeti hats. Right. They wear, you know, they got a Yeti on every dang thing that they drink out of. I mean, it's incredible how they've, like, made it a lifestyle brand. Right. Authentically, too. You talk about imitation. Yeah. I mean, everybody's gunning for them. Yeah. And everybody has tried. And there are an example of just exactly what you said like all right knock yourself out see if you can do it yeah they just keep yeah they just keep on pushing yep but yeah i mean like from from a somebody that i admire i mean that side of it but like i said i mean none of this again none of this is possible without the lord you know and he's the one that gave me my wife and he's the one that gave me my

family and so yeah this is his and i just um i want to be a good steward of it good ambassador, if you will, for the, and, uh, and try to continue, you know, he's entrusted me with a little and he's entrusted me with a lot more. And so it's just like, I don't know what his path is. And I'm going to ask for wisdom and discernment and decision making about what's next. And, um, I know he knows, you know, and, but it doesn't mean I don't continue to plan in it, but I've just asked him to make it obvious, shut the doors that aren't supposed to be open, you know, just make it plain to where we're supposed to go. And that's not me sitting here.

I'm like, well, I don't know what's next. I mean, that's why I say you still have to keep moving. And it's here we are, you know. Well, I think you're doing a damn good job of it. Yeah, you've been a great ambassador today. Thank you. For sure. And we appreciate you making the trip up here.

It's been an absolute pleasure and honor to have you. Where can people support you, find out more about your farm, what you're doing, all that? Yeah. We obviously have a website. it's fondelacfarms.com. We're on Instagram at fondleck farms. Those are the two main threads that we kind of use right now. If you go to the website, you can email us directly.

But yeah, we're, and there's more coming in that direction. But those are our two avenues right now. And if they're in Arizona. Yeah, if you're in Arizona, like you said, if you want to try our products or any sprouts, I mean, we cover the entire state. so you can go to any sprouts in Arizona. Find our products there.

We offer milk and half gallons. We also offer Kifere or Kiefer. And then we're looking at bringing heavy cream back to the fold. Nice. Awesome. Well, man, it was a really, it was a pleasure to have you. Thank you guys for having me. I really, I mean, it's been fun. It's really been fun watching the show grow.

And I just, I love what you're doing. I, this is, this is just the beginnings for this show. So it's really cool. We appreciate it. A lot. We really do. And guys, if you didn't get any value from that, I don't know. You must have been sleeping under a rock because it was pack full.

So share the show with the people that you know. We love you guys. We appreciate you. And we'll see you back here next week for another episode.