Betrayal Weekly - Pathological Liars | BONUS | Karoline's Story

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

Curious about the psychology of pathological liars, Andrea talks with two leading experts. For more from Dr. Drew Curtis and Dr. Christian Hart, check out their book Big Liars: What Psychological Science Tells Us About Lying and How You Can Avoid Being Duped. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. You can listen to new episodes of Betrayal Season 4 completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance.

And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, listeners. I'm Jamal Jordan, the host of Rorschach, Murder at City Hall podcast. In July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis, an ambitious rising star in Brooklyn politics, was murdered inside New York City Hall. Hall, shot to death in front of more than 200 people. The killer? His political opponent, a man named Neil Askew. The full story of this shocking public murder and the relationship between these two men has not

yet been told until now. I want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Rochak murder at City Hall 100% ad-free with an I-heart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Roastrak, murder at City Hall, one week ahead of everyone else, available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head's Apple Podcasts, search for IHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hi, listeners, I'm Anna Sinfield, host of The Girlfriends Trust Me Babe. I'm excited to share the Girlfriends Trust Me Babe story with you, and I want to let you know that you can get access to all

episodes of season one, two, three and four of The Girlfriends, and every single episode of The Girlfriends Trust Me, Babe, 100% ad-free with an I-Heart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of The Girlfriends Trust Me, Babe, one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHeart True Crime Plus. and subscribe today.

This is Amy Roboc alongside TJ Holmes from the Amy and TJ podcast. And there is so much news, information, commentary coming at you all day and from all over the place. What's fact, what's fake, and sometimes what the F. So let's cut the crap, okay? Follow the Amy and T.J podcast, a one-stop news and pop culture shop to get you caught up and on with your day. And listen to Amy and T.J. on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or were you listen to podcasts. Hi guys, it's Andrea with a bonus episode.

This season on betrayal, we're telling the story of Caroline Brega. After two decades of marriage, she discovered that her entire life was a mirage. Her husband, Joel, an honorable cop, was anything but. For years, he'd been spending his time on the clock having sex in his police car. On top of that, he'd had dozens of affairs. For Caroline, this betrayal was not just about what Joel did. It was about the lengths he went to to cover it all up. Our marriage has just been lie after lie after lie.

Day after day, Joel deceived her. He lied about where he was, who he was with, and what he was really up to all those long nights on duty. And even during his investigation by the Colorado Springs Police Department, when he signed a document guaranteeing honesty, he continued to hide the truth. To me, this is the most disturbing piece of the entire case. The fact that you lied, the fact that you're willing to put this on a third person,

is absolutely horrific and constitutes a violation of your oath in office. While reporting on Caroline's story, our team has been fascinated by the idea of liars, people who refuse to be honest, even when their back is up against the wall. We wanted to understand why people lie, and how someone like Joel could have kept lying for so long. So, we tracked down two of the world's leading experts in deception. I'm Drew Curtis. And my name's Chris Hart.

They're both psychology researchers and professors. Together, they wrote a book called Big Liars, what psychological science tells us about lying and how you can avoid being duped. They've spent years studying pathological lying. So I asked them to define it for me. Most people are honest most of the time, but it's a small percentage of the population who tells excessive amounts of lies. So there's these groups of prolific or big liars who tell lots of lies. And those lies don't always put them at some disadvantage.

And then there's a smaller subset of individuals who would say are pathological liars where their lies do disadvantage them typically in their relationships, causing them distress. and so forth. You guys say in your book, Big Liars, that lying at its core is the attempt to persuade. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that? Oftentimes our goals and ambitions are in alignment with other people, but there's always a certain degree to which that's not true. And so we're always navigating that tension between satisfying our own goals and trying to match someone else's goals. But I think ultimately we all find ourselves bending the truth and sometimes outright lying when we feel like that's our best option at persuading other people to essentially do what we want. People are coming to the show because in some ways they relate to either Caroline's story or Ashley or Stacey's story from like past seasons.

In a lot of the cases they were with someone that deceived them for their own gain. What kind of resources could we give to anybody? is trying to help someone who cares about the liar, where do you start? Where do you go to help advocate for them to get help? Is there actually a path forward for these individuals? What you're saying makes me think of two pieces to this. And one is, how do we overcome deception within our relationships or betrayals that are coupled with deception? One of the challenges with deception is that it really damages trust. And so the restoration of trust is that kind of at the seed of this. But you're right, there's not a lot of help. And to make this clear,

pathological lying is not currently recognized as a formal diagnostic entity in the DSM. For those unfamiliar with the term, the DSM is a manual from mental health professionals. It lays out diagnoses recognized by the medical establishment. And Dr. Curtis is saying that pathological lying is not something clinicians can formally diagnose. And so that leaves a lot of people helpless, who might reach out to me or Chris or experts saying, hey, can you help me? Why do you think that this isn't a formal diagnosis in the DSM? It's surprising to me because some of the most prolific writers in psychiatry and psychology

identified pathological lying. Again, it comes with different names, and that's one of our hypothesis, is that maybe it was too fragmented. We called it all these different things, and maybe it didn't cohesively come together. The other part of this is a lot of the research on pathological lying and the case studies were late 1800s, early 1900s. But after about 1915, there's really not a lot of writing on it until maybe the 1980s. So as the DSM was really being developed in the 50s, you know, it doesn't necessarily make its way in there. But I'm hopeful I've been working with some colleagues, a psychiatrist from Yale and Columbia, and we're working actively to get it recognized.

How would saying concretely this is a diagnosis help the individual or help other people? Like, why would that be important? One of the most important reasons is just a standard label by which we can communicate as professionals, but also communicate with patients. You know, so you think of any kind of disorder like major depressive disorder when we say that all clinical professionals understand the cluster of symptoms that come with that. but then also people who receive that diagnosis, they can associate that label with the symptoms they already feel. So it gives a standard language for people to communicate. That's kind of at the very basic aspect of it. More pragmatically, looking for like insurance reimbursement.

So insurance is not going to reimburse treatment of something that, what are you treating? Well, you're not treating anything that actually exists or that's formally recognized. Other pragmatic concerns are we did a study looking at psychotherapy. And the majority of psychotherapists indicated they had worked with someone who they consider to be a pathological liar. But in the absence of this label, they end up giving another diagnosis. And so when you do that, you're somewhat misdiagnosing and then maybe even arguably ineffectively offering a treatment. And that's the last piece of this too, is that if you can identify a formal diagnosis, then you can set forth research to look at what is the most effective treatment. for this.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.

We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth, with John Holbro, Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about like, I'm going to get rich. That's great.

It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and...

tiny beautiful things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world, fighting for our lives.

All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain.

You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and U. IHeart Podcast presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school.

Absolutely. Now a redacted amount of years later. We're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips. Wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drink.

Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Well, then you got it. Do you want a white collar or something here? Just take it. What are y'all doing? microphones? Are you making a rap album? I would.

Come on. Can you believe? I would buy it. Cuts through the defense like a hot knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious. Oh, you're lucky I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You're lucky I'm not a killer.

I love this team and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Where Caroline is left today is that she's kind of living with two different realities. There was her perspective of what her life was and what her family looked like and what she thought her family looked like. And on the other track, there's the life that Joel was doing behind the scenes. And she now has to kind of integrate those two realities because she has to look back on major

memories and wonder what was real and what wasn't real. And so when I look at someone like Caroline or if I'm Caroline, I don't even know where to start on rebuilding trust or understanding the world in which I live. That's why I find this topic fascinating because, you know, he lied to her for 20 years. Our research shows that most people are really good at lying. It's a pretty easy thing for most humans to pull off. And I think we go through the world trusting everyone is being honest with us and especially those people who are really good at lying. close with us. But it's important to remember that they're probably not being fully honest with us all the time, even the people who are the very closest people in our lives. If we catch someone close to us telling us a rather minor lie, it has the same effect as these bigger lies that we're talking

about in this case where we start to question, well, if they lie about this, what else are they lying about? It's a natural proclivity, I believe, to go back and start investigating. And one of the piece of advice I'd say too is to not necessarily let that overcloud or overshadow places where you did have good experiences. But it's easier said than done. Sure. I think another part of that is really commitment to where do you want to be now and where do you want to go forward. And I imagine anyone who's been lied to for a very long time that is going back, you know, It's going to impact trust of other relationships, or at least, you know, the analogy I use as walls. You know, when you've, when you've lowered your wall and you've been vulnerable and you've gotten crushed,

the walls are going to come up probably higher than before. And you're probably going to have a hard time letting people in because you've seen what people can do to you. And you're developing these new beliefs that if I let people in, they will crush me. They will lie to me. They will take advantage of me. And those thoughts, those are hard to guard against, right? But you are making decisions about what it is you want to do. And maybe you do want to keep the walls up.

But there's a consequence to that too. And it's not letting people in who may not do that to you. Right. I mean, I imagine your brain is helping you create that story for a sense of safety because your world has just kind of been taken away from you or your perception of what your life was like has been taken away. As much as you want to beat yourself up, people who lie all the time are very good at it, you know? We do see that people who are really practice at lying get good at it. And one of the things we see is for people that lie prolifically, they have this diminished fear response when they're lying.

So probably if any of us were lying, we'd be really nervous about being caught, you know, because for a lot of reasons, like it would destroy our reputations and cause ruptures in our relationships. but people who lie a lot and do it every day, that fear response subsides. And so they can lie and their emotional reactions are going to be about the same as if they're telling you what they had for dinner last night. There's just not much there. And the other part you mentioned is Blaine. You know, you can beat yourself up. Like you said, what did I not see, right?

Hindsight's 2020. How did I not see all these things? And maybe you see them much clearer now. you know, most of us, you know, don't want to catch those awful things. We don't want to be confronted with that even if it's true. And so I think, you know, that aspect too is helping someone deal with beating themselves up for not being super lie detector. But there is the initial impulse to not necessarily want to know that the person's lying because what that brings about or the consequences of what they were lying about. Yeah, especially within the context of romantic relationships and marriages, if I'm going to call my spouse out for lying, does that mean we have to split up? And it gets really complicated and scary really quickly. And it's just so much easier and less frightening to just turn a blind eye to that thing that's giving rise towards suspicion. Can people who are pathological liars change? Is there? a path for them to move about life in a more honest way if they want to work on it? I think people always have the opportunities to change. And change is kind of the business we're in.

And one of those really cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, it's aspects like modeling honesty, even when it's hard. So trying to encourage people to be honest, even when it's hard, really having those tough conversations, showing that you're willing to have tough conversations with people. Yeah, I think a lot of it is just the intention to change. Lying is really a social strategy that people adopt and cultivate and reinforce over decades and decades. And it's just like any behavioral pattern, whether it's, you know, alcohol consumption, smoking, using sarcasm, anything that you've been doing for decades, it's hard just to flip the switch and turn it off. But the key in the first step, and Drew and I both hear from these people periodically is, people decide they finally want to change. They finally hit some point in their lives where they

realize that their patterns of lying are causing such upheaval and turmoil that they really have a strong desire to change. I think we can all become more honest than we are right now, but we have to make that a goal. We have to make a priority. And if we just take one moment every day and think, how can I be more honest about this situation with someone who I care about that I'm interacting with, we can move that needle. And each day as we practice that habit, we start to see some change. And the change might be gradual, but I assume if everyone made an intention to be more honest every day, if they looked at themselves a year from now, they'd find they've made some considerable progress. If you want to hear more of this conversation and see it in

video, check out our brand new substack. Just head to Betrayal.com. That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-com, or just go to Substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal and hit subscribe. You can find Curtis and Hart's book Big Liars on the American Psychological Association website, Amazon, or Barnes & Noble. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me, Andrea H. Gunnar.

for all Betrayal content news and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I-Hard Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasen. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning.

Written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Federman. Our associate producer is Kristen Mulcuri. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.

Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi listeners, I'm Anna Sinfield, host of The Girlfriends Trust Me Babe. I'm excited to share the Girlfriends Trust Me Babe story with you. And I want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of season one, two, three, and four of the Girlfriends. and every single episode of The Girlfriends Trust Me Babe,

100% ad-free with an I-Heart True Crime Plus subscription. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of The Girlfriends Trust Me, Babe, one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hi, listeners.

I'm Jamal Jordan. the host of Roershack, Murder at City Hall podcast. In July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis, an ambitious rising star in Brooklyn politics, was murdered inside New York City Hall, shot to death in front of more than 200 people. The killer?

His political opponent, a man named Neil Askew. The full story of this shocking public murder and the relationship between these two men has not yet been told. Until now. I want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Rochak Murder at City Hall 100% ad-free with an I-Heart

True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Roershack Murder at City Hall one week ahead of everyone else, available only to I-Heart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head's Apple Podcasts.

Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast Eating While Broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. There's an economic component to communities thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they failed. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.