Betrayal Weekly - Rehabilitation | EP 9 | Saskia's Story

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

After serving his time, Mike launches a new career.   Content Warning for rape, tech-enabled sexual abuse, nonconsensual intimate image distribution, death, discussion of suicide, gun violence, and 911 audio.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail]. Follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts.  Follow our newsletter and join the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com.  For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition, and many counties also have resources available. If you’re looking for help, go onto your county’s website to see what resources are available locally, or search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot.

But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be... Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that. your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe, on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become

when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance, and then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Amy Roboc alongside T.J. Holmes from the Amy and T.J. podcast. And there is so much news, information, commentary coming at you all day and from all over the place. What's fact, what's fake, and sometimes what the F. So let's cut the crap, okay? Follow the Amy and T.J. podcast, a one-stop news and pop culture shop to get you caught up and on with your day.

And listen to Amy and T.J. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, everyone. Andre here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology. which means each episode features one of your favorite betrayal weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies, and you can watch it every Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 9 p.m. Central.

Please check it out. There is a corner of the criminal justice system that you won't find on court documents. It doesn't involve judges, prosecutors, juries. It doesn't even involve laws, really. It's called prison consulting. You might have heard about it on the news. Harvey Weinstein is preparing for prison. He recently hired a consultant who is helping guide him on what to expect.

Bernie Madoff has hired a prison consultant. Actress Lori Loughlin has reportedly hired a prison consultant. Louis G. Manjone. Martha Stewart. NFL player Michael Vick has hired a prison consultant. Will his new prison consultant? Tip the scales in his case. Prison consultants assist people who are facing time. Many of these consultants promote their services on YouTube and TikTok.

Have you been indicted? Are you thinking you're going to be undeaded? You need someone who speaks inmates and institutions. So if you are a loved one that's been recently arrested, You can go ahead and text me. I'll be happy to help you in any way I can. For the right price, prison consultants will advise those facing time on how to get a lesser sentence or how to get out of jail early.

They'll tell you what programs to join and what gangs to avoid. Many of these consultants have served time themselves, often for financial crimes or nonviolent offenses. But what if the person giving out that advice was a convicted rapist? What if they were someone like Mike Levin Good? I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Season 5. Episode 9. Rehabilitation. For Saskia, this crime didn't just take an emotional toll.

It devastated her financially, especially when it came to paying for her divorce. I'd always learned you'd never touch your 401K. Like you always need three months of bills in the bank just in case of a rainy day. And I'd always live by that. And I had to kind of throw that out the window to fight this. I remember the first withdrawal I made was for $60,000. And that was just for attorney's bills up to that point.

In the end, the divorce cost her about $100,000. It's a financial hole she's still crawling out of. All of this got us thinking about Mike's financial status, how he's doing today after this crime. So we did some digging. and what we found surprised us. By early 2021, Mike had served his sentence. He was released from jail and put on probation.

One of the many standard conditions of probation is getting a job. And for Mike, that wouldn't be easy, not only because of his conviction, but because of his resume. He was very smart. He had a master's degree. He was working as vice president of marketing for Bank of America. So, I mean, he made a good salary. It was more than a good salary.

Before his conviction, he was making between $200 and $250,000 a year. He was an executive and a good one. If you look at his LinkedIn recommendations, he was well-liked and respected. One recommendation reads, He's not only a tremendous professional, he's also a person of integrity, kindness, and old school values. While another says, Mike is a top-notch professional and a pleasure to work with.

Even during his sentencing hearing, and after pleading guilty to second-degree rape, a former colleague showed up to defend him. As long as I've known, Mike, he's really always been an outstanding character, of people grow, mentoring, providing kindness and a good will towards people. It's just the gentle soul.

It's one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. The fact that someone can commit a disturbing personal crime. And people will still line up to call them kind and gentle. Most sex offenders struggle to find any work after they get out. When they do, it's usually construction, waste management, or warehouse gigs. But Mike had a plan. In fact, he had it before he went to jail. During his sentencing hearing back in 2019, his lawyer shared that plan with the judge.

He started an LLC so that he can provide consulting to businesses using the information and knowledge that he had from his career and hopefully not let the record be an impediment to some companies hiring him because he can use the LLC. He'd used his expertise in banking and marketing to support himself financially. and by running that business through an LLC, his clients could work with him without the bad PR. Then in February of 2021, Mike got out of jail, and a month later, he filed a trade name application for a new company. But this company wasn't a business consulting firm.

It was Smith & Good Associates. According to their legal business filing, Smith & Good is a consulting firm for individuals in the criminal justice system, which is just another way of saying prison consultants. We wanted to learn what this industry was all about. So we called up an expert. My name is John Fuller. I started my prison consulting business in 2004. Like a lot of prison consultants, John has a criminal past. I was since the 10 years for conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute.

He did time for drug and forgery charges. But since prison, John's built quite the career for himself. I worked primarily with white-collar criminals, professional athletes, entertainers, mostly high-profile individuals. Multiple outlets say he coached Martha Stewart when she was heading to prison. He didn't comment on that. But no matter the client, his job is essentially the same. I prepare my clients on things that they should do before incarceration, ways they should behave during incarceration, and any assistance or the reality of their circumstances post-incarceration. Every prison consultant offers different services. Some explain sentencing guidelines or strategize on getting their clients lesser sentences.

They facilitate mock trials and, in some cases, assist in writing remorse letters to victims. Others focus on eliminating the unknowns of prison, what the food, the beds, the fellow inmates might be like. And they also explain those unknowns to family members who are scared for their loved one. But John is the first to admit there are a lot of unethical people in his industry.

What 90% of the prison consultants are doing, they'll make promises and tell you that they can save your life. In our reporting, we spoke to several prison consultants. Every one of them had something to say about the others. But John brought up a lot of interesting examples of how other consultants will say they can gain the system to their client's advantage. For instance, they'll lie and charge you $15,000, $20,000 until you, as soon as you get to the prison, they can get them in a residential drug and alcohol. You might be wondering, why would anyone who doesn't use drugs or alcohol pay $20,000

for addiction treatment? Well, John says it can be part of a larger strategy. Because if you can get into the residential drug and alcohol program, you can get 18 months to three years off your sentence. So of course, they're going to go that route. And this wise guy of a prison consultant says, we're going to lie and you're going to take it. and you're going to tell your probation officer that you do use drugs. You do use alcohol. As a matter of fact, go report next week with the smell of alcohol on your breath.

And that's what's going to qualify you for the residential drug and alcohol program. A few years ago, a prison consultant pled guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Bureau of Prisons for running that exact scam. But John says, that's not the only scam people in his industry. are operating. These prison consultants are literally stealing money from people saying, you're not going to do any time. But if you don't pay me this $10, $15,000, $25,000 within the next 36 hours, I can't help you. And the client is so scared that he's going to do it. Mike declined our request for comment, so we don't know how much Smith and Good charges or the specific strategies they use. But on their website, they do advertise a wide variety of services. They support clients

in mitigating their sentences and prepping for their time behind bars. They also provide guidance on parole hearings and sex offender registry requirements. But there's one line that stands out to me on the Smith and Good homepage. I had my producer Trey read it. We emphasize the importance of rehabilitation, how to do this safely at the Department of Corrections, and what loved ones can do to support rehabilitative efforts. It all starts with a plan. It's not for us to say whether Mike was rehabilitated while behind bars, but we can say that Mike had a plan for himself. Very soon after Mike got out of jail, he had a business name, address, and tax ID number.

And on top of that, he found himself a business partner. His associate is a former Army ranger with a criminal past of his own. But unlike Mike, he wasn't a sex offender. He was charged with murder. And when questioned by detectives, his story changed three times. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

And Rule 2, never mess with her friends either. We always say that, trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of The Girlfriends... Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care.

So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a good at you. Everyone, I'm Ego Vodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo.

My dad gave me the best. ever. I went and had lunch with them one day and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's over. It's over. okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar

of, you know, the cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body, having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of

turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Ho'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here?

We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

In 2021, Saskia's ex-husband, Mike Levin Good, started a prison consulting firm, Smith and Good associates. He was the good in the business name, as in Levin Good. And the Smith was Gary James Smith. Gary has experience with the system, too, but his journey is a lot more complicated. We're going to take a detour into Gary's story because it brings up some very important questions about the kind of business Mike is operating.

In 2006, Gary was a young veteran, an Army Ranger fresh out of the military. As a judge said of him at trial, There are many examples in Mr. Smith's life where he was a good person. He was a mentor to young soldiers. He was promoted to the rank of sergeant fairly quickly, which is no easy task. He was assigned to a very responsible unit with a very important job in the defense of this country. But when good people do bad things, they have to be held accountable.

He made a horribly bad decision. and in making that decision, it caused the life of another young man. That young man was 22-year-old Michael McQueen. He was also an Army Ranger, an intelligence analyst. He and Gary served several tours together in Afghanistan. When they came back to the U.S., they moved in together. McQueen's friends and family said he was excited to be home. He had plans to go to college, then lost.

school, become a sports agent. But then, in the early morning hours of September 26, 2006, Michael McQueen was found dead. He had a gunshot wound to the head. His roommate Gary Smith was the one to call 911. You're about to hear that call. In it, Gary is distraught. The 911 operator could barely understand him. If you'd like, you can skip ahead 30 seconds. When the cops arrived, Gary remained inconsolable. He insisted he had nothing to do with McQueen's death. But the police, they didn't buy it because Gary was covered in McQueen's blood. And that wasn't all.

Here's the prosecutor at trial. He's outside at this point, over the top, uncontrollably crying. But then one of the officers, when a sergeant said, I know she was crying loudly, but there were no tears coming. And each time the authorities pressed Gary, he changed his story. During the investigation, he gave three very different versions of what happened that night. Story number one came the first time the police asked Gary what happened. He said he wasn't even home at the time of McQueen's death.

They'd been out drinking and Gary dropped McQueen at their apartment before running out for a quick errand. Here's Gary on the police interrogation tapes. He went upstairs. I said, I'm going to go pick up to some clean socks. I drove over to my mother's house. Grab the laundry basket full of clothes, put him in my car, turned around and went back to the house.

And I went upstairs, I opened the door. I saw him right sitting in the chair, and I saw blood up over the place. Maybe it was a suicide. Or maybe, Someone killed McQueen. Gary offered a few possible theories of who could have done it. Some neighbors McQueen had argued with, or maybe a drug dealer in the building.

Gary said when he found McQueen, there were no weapons nearby. He kept all of his guns at his mom's house. But later, he told officer something very different. Here's story number two. It was Gary's gun. He knew his fingerprints would be all over it, and he panicked. Relaxed he was dead. I put my pocket back to the house.

Gary confessed that, before calling 911, he took the time to get rid of the weapon. He said he threw the gun in a lake. I was just so scared. He was dead. He was dead, and it was my fault. I left that gun there. It was my gun. I didn't pop you up.

Now, Gary was suddenly sure this had to be a suicide. And then, there was story number three, also a suicide. But in this third account, Gary didn't come home to find McQueen dead. He was in the apartment when McQueen fired the gun. The prosecutor summarized this version for the court. He says he comes in, he put the gun on the floor, He was back in the bathroom. He came out and Mike killed himself.

And then even in story three, he gives different versions of that. I put it on the table. I was here. I did see it. I didn't see it. I might have been close. I might not have been closed. Three different stories and one dead man.

And with each version, Gary moved a little closer to the scene. From nowhere near the apartment and no gun in sight, to finding the gun and throwing it in a lake, to being inside the apartment. when his friend died. The problem with all three versions, none of them clearly lined up with the forensic evidence,

and the interpretation of that evidence was heavily debated by both the prosecution and the defense. There was no confession, no eyewitness testimony. There was only this evidence in Gary Smith's word. And it's important to say here,

Gary Smith is white. Michael McQueen was black. After nine years of proceedings in two separate appeals, Gary Smith finally entered what's known as an Alfred plea. An Alfred plea is essentially a guilty plea where you say that I'm not saying that I did it, but I acknowledge that there's sufficient evidence in order to find me guilty. That's Max Frizzalone, a defense attorney in Maryland and the founder of Friswood's criminal defense. So you have somebody who spent years in James. The state has put on multiple criminal trials subpoenaed numerous witnesses who have testified multiple times under oath. And so sort of the whole entire goal of an Alford plea is that the person's found guilty, but the person themselves doesn't have to say it.

But ultimately, it is a conviction. An Alford plea is a compromise. The state still gets a conviction, but the defendant gets the ability to maintain their innocence. Plus, as part of the plea, Gary's legal team to... negotiated his charges down significantly. What was once a murder charge was now reckless endangerment, and he got sentenced to time served. In the end, Gary Smith served just six years behind bars.

We reached out to Gary for comment, but he didn't respond to our call. The same goes from Michael McQueen's family. When Gary Smith was released, he also quickly got a job. He went to work for the very law firm that had to be. defended him. He's even used in the firm's promotional materials. Hi, I'm Gary. I'm a law clerk here at the office of Jesig and M.O.E. I served six years in prison. Before that, I was an Army Ranger. If you were a loved one who's been charged with a crime, please give our offices a call, and we'd love to help you. And now I'm happy to say that Gary works for me full time as a law clerk on all my

homicide cases and my serious felony cases. That's Andrew Jessick, Gary's boss. on his firm's YouTube channel. I'm proud of him, and I think we were able to show in the end that Gary was innocent and that Gary deserved to get every break that he could. And now he's married, he's got a child, he's my law clerk, he's going to go to law school, and he's hopefully going to be my partner one day. If that voice sounds familiar, it's because you've heard it before. Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.

And Mike, the great parts of him will continue and dominate. for the rest of his life. Andrew Jessick was also Mike Levingood's defense attorney. He also didn't return our call. In many ways, Gary and Mike had a lot in common. Both of their cases ended in a mess of legal technicalities, and they were both convicted. But they each maintained their innocence, in spite of the judge's ruling.

It's no wonder, then, that these two became partners, that they came together to help other people like them. On the Smith & Good Site, they invite people to reach out and give them a call. So I called him up and surprisingly he answered. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

And rule two, never mess with her friends either. always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care, so they take matters into their own hands.

I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, everyone. I'm Ego Vodom.

My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day. And I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come look for up and coming talent.

He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar. of, you know, the cat, just hang in there.

Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change

of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money.

What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts, too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

By 2021, both Mike Levingood and Gary James Smith had served their sentences. And together, they've launched Smith & Good Associates, built on their experiences with and contacts within the criminal justice system. On the surface, their business is like any other consulting firm. They've got clean headshots and a positive. polished website with a promise to help guide clients through a confusing system. But behind the branding, there's a convicted rapist and a man convicted in connection with the death of his friend. And both are charging money to consult criminal defendants. We've confirmed through legal documents that the firm's been employed by Jessica M.O.E's,

the criminal defense firm, Mike and Gary both used. On one hand, all of the law. All of the All of this is perfectly legal. Gary and Mike served their sentences, and there's nothing stopping them from creating a business like this. In fact, in the eyes of the justice system, it might even be a good thing. At some point, you do have to earn enough money to comply with probation, right? That's Max Frizzellone, the lawyer you heard from earlier. He's referring to something we discussed at the top of the episode, that ex-cons are required

to hold down a job as part of the terms of their probation. For a lot of people who have been convicted of crimes, especially crimes of violence, sexual offenses, traditional employment might be impossible. You know, you're unlikely to get through a background check if you have a prior violent felony or, you know, you're a sex offender. So you might have to get creative about how to keep making money. And making money doesn't just benefit the offender.

It benefits their families, who often suffer from the lack of income that comes with their relatives' incarceration. But the idea that ex-cons are now profiting from that past raises a lot of moral, ethical, and legal questions. One of the pitfalls and problems with the industry is your qualification for this job is the fact that you committed a crime. That's Trey Morgan, one of my producers.

He's been reporting on crime for eight years now. And he did a lot of the investigation for this episode. One of the biggest problems he sees with this industry is that there's no certification process to become a prison consultant. I mean, almost every other industry that deals with our criminal justice system has some sort of licensing and some sort of board that establishes rules and guidelines. But for some reason, we have decided that, this one doesn't need oversight.

A lot of these crimes are about control, and being a consultant puts you in a position of power. And then there's the concern of people like Mike getting close with fellow criminals. Remember, Mike started this business immediately after getting out. For sex offenders like Mike and violent offenders like Gary, the Maryland Department of Public Safety, and correctional services, they encourage limiting contact with other offenders.

And the goal there is really, I mean, it's common sense, to reduce the risk of reoffending, especially right when you get out of jail or prison. Mike and Gary working together likely goes against that advice. So would Mike consulting other convicted felons while he was still on probation. Maybe there's a world where I could get past all of that. Mike and Gary did serve their time. They're technically free to do whatever they want to do and make money in most ways you could think of.

But there's one thing I keep coming back to. What does this business mean for people like Michael McQueen? And for Saskia. I talk to try about it. You know, I keep thinking about the fact that there's this entire industry built around helping criminal defendants. attending to their fears, their anxieties, their difficulties, when there's someone like Saskia,

who has spent years fighting to get the proper care she needs. I just feel like we spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes, and as a culture, we don't give the same safeguards to victims. I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, we are an offender-first society. Post-conviction, our focus turned to the convicted to say, okay, well, they're serving their time. They're getting their life back together.

And we start forgetting about the actual victim. When you go to Smith & Goods website, you see a lot about Mike and Gary's accolades. How Mike was a business exec at Fortune 500 companies and how Gary was an intelligence specialist in Afghanistan. Nowhere on the website do they make any acknowledgement of the details of the crimes they've been convicted of and the victims whose lives they've altered forever. And I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine.

Saskia had no idea about Lake's business. She only found out about it from us once we started investigating for the podcast. I can't say that I was really surprised, but I just thought it was really a low, shameful thing to do. He's not helping victims or not helping rehabilitate people, and instead of making something good out of it, he decides to capitalize on it. He's like basically laughing at everything that he put me through. As for Michael McQueen, he will never know what Gary went on to do. He was long dead. by the time Smith and Good began.

But those who loved McQueen, his family, his friends, those he served with overseas, remain. As we said earlier, we tried contacting his mother for comment. She never replied to our messages. But we do have audio

from Gary's final sentencing hearing in 2015 when McQueen's mother got up to give a victim impact statement and we'd like to share what she had to say. There must be concern for victims and for my son, who under no reason was murdered and killed by someone who he considered a friend. Whether or not it's called one thing, whether or not it is called mass slaughtered. It is still murder. He killed an innocent young man who had everything to look forward to.

And so I asked myself, where is the fairness for my son? Where else a fairness for him? Mike and Gary get to move on. Victims live with these crimes forever. I'll never be the same. I'll never be able to assume that because I'm a good person, that I'll get treated as one. It would be one thing for Mike to start a business like this

if he'd made amends with Saskia. If he would have said, I'm a sex addict and I will do anything I can to show you that I'm sorry, if he would have done anything in good faith. Then maybe Saskia would feel differently about all of it. But if his actions in the divorce trial are any indication, Mike's not trying to minimize harm. There was no regret, no accountability taken. immediately right away, the only thing he cared about was saving his face.

This question of accountability is one that comes up in many of our stories. But it's rare that we have a case where the perpetrator has built a career around his conviction and incarceration,

which is one of the reasons we wanted to call Mike to ask him about this ourselves. So Trey, rang him up. And surprisingly he answered. I don't know what I imagined after listening to all the court audio and all of that, but he just sounded like a normal guy. You know, I introduced myself. I'm Trey. I'm a producer. We're doing a story about Toskia Inwood and

wanted to talk to you about your business. And he paused for a second. And then Mike started asking Trey questions. Questions like, so you're a reporter. What's the angle of the story? And then he said something to the effect of, what does my business have to do with my personal life? What does my business have to do with Saskia? His business is a result of serving time, and he served that time because of his relationship to Saskia. Trey laid this out for Mike, but at this point, Mike was done talking. He said he didn't want to comment on his business, his criminal trial, or his divorce case. So they ended the call.

Afterwards, Trey sat there frozen for a while, processing Mike's questions. What's the story here? What do his crimes, his personal life, have to do with his business? When he said that, I was caught off guard. Like, how do you answer that? On the final episode of Betrayal Season 5, we turn back to Saskia and her healing journey. I don't think that I can ever trust anybody.

I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was so sure that he was a good person and that he loved me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that? For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org slash betrayal. That's r-a-in-n-n.org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through Rain's National Sexual Assault hotline.

Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656-5-6-Hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with the betrayal community, join our Substack at Betrayal.substack.com.

We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group

in partnership with IHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasen. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Trey Morgan and Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is a Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristen Melchuri.

Additional support by Curry Richmond. Voice acting by Stephanie Young and Tanner Robbins. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends, and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The trial's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mib Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everyone?

I'm Ego Vodom. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.

Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the. Same prolific con artist. They take matters into their own hands.

I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that, trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance, and then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Amy Roboc alongside TJ Holmes from the Amy and TJ podcast.

And there is so much news, information, commentary coming at you all day and from all over the place. What's fact, what's fake, and sometimes what the F. So let's cut the crap, okay? Follow the Amy and T.J podcast, a one-stop news and pop culture shop to get you caught up and on with your day. And listen to Amy and T.J. on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.