Betrayal Weekly - Phantom Menace | EP 1 | The Confidante

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

After coming out, Carl finally begins building a new life - with close friends, his first love, and hope for the future. But someone is preparing to tear it all apart. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com.    If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here:  988 Lifeline. If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365.  National Domestic Violence Hotline. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support.  For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hi, I'm Michael Imperioli. I want to tell you about my new podcast, Underground Zero. We're looking at the opportunity of a lifetime for us and the other families. It's about the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks. What's in the tunnels? Gold bars, Silver Ingech.

It could be worth half a billion. Starring Steve Sharipa, Rea Abruzzo, and me, Michael Imperioli. How far are you prepared to go? Depends how far you are. Listen to Underground Zero on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing. I talk to actor Stephen Root.

I'm a people watcher. You see that guy going down to the ring? Yeah, I can use that. And Open Igloo co-founder, Alia Mohammed. I love staying on top of what is going on in our city, what is on renter's minds, and taking all of that knowledge to build a platform that hopefully is going to make New York City better in the long run. Listen to Here's the Thing on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Mimi Brown, and every day on front page podcasts, I help you make sense of the stories shaping our world. Each day, I break down the biggest headlines. Canada's trade fight with the U.S. just escalated again, and Americans could fill it in their wallets. And when a story deserves a deeper conversation, I'll sit down with experts, newsmakers, and thought leaders to help you better understand the issue behind the headlines. Listen to Front Page from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Hi, I'm Bob Pipman, chairman and CEO of IHeartMedia and host of the podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I have some new exciting interviews coming to the math and magic feed this fall. IHeart's own Hoda Kotbe is joining me to talk about her new business venture and podcast, Joy 101. Your timeline is not anybody else. stay in the game and let them find you. I'm also talking to Capital One's Mark Mentry and marketing executive Diego Scotty. Purpose-driven marketing should be part of your mainstream marketing.

Listen to math and magic, stories from the Frontiers and Marketing on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, and I'm excited to be back with Season 6 of Betrayal. If you listen to Betrayal Weekly, I hope you'll stick around for our full season of Carl's story. It'll be told over the course of 10 episodes with a new one dropping every Thursday. Whether you've been a fan since season one, your Betrayal Weekly listener, or you're brand new to our show. Thanks for being here. Now, on to the episode.

We all have a person in our lives that we trust with anything. A partner, a parent, a sibling, a friend. I'm thinking right now about my best friend, Teresa. We have been each other's person since ninth grade. She's been with me through the best moments in my life and the difficult ones. She knows my secrets. She sat on the phone with me for hours when I've been nursing a broken heart. We became adults together.

We've cheered each other on in our careers and celebrated our successes. For years, we shared a place at the Jersey Shore, where we'd end each day with a beachwalk and a glass of wine. Every one of us needs a person like that, a confidant, someone you can be vulnerable, with and also share uncontrollable laughter with, someone you trust beyond reproach. Now, imagine that person isn't who you think they are. Imagine that every secret you've shared wasn't stored in confidence. It was collected, cataloged, saved for later. The audio we're about to play was caught on a security camera.

I acted totally nice, like sociopathically. And I, like, completely, like, put on the act. And I was just, like, they don't deserve to be happy. The man you just heard, he'd been plotting for years, against someone who trusted him more than anyone. Then, he was unknowingly caught on tape, admitting to it all. I'm not pleading guilty. That's for fucking sure.

This confession is almost five hours long, and it contains some of the most sinister details I've ever heard. not just about the crimes he'd committed, but about his darkest fantasies and the people he was willing to discard to get what he wanted. Like, if I could have kept doing shit, I would have, like, put vizy and his fucking stir fry. Wait, what is that to kill you? Do you want me to just tell you the whole story? I'm Andre Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 6. Episode 1.

Phantom Menace For five seasons, we've explored Betrayal. inside marriages. We've shared stories about families of all kinds and complex relationships with parents, kids, and colleagues. But then, we heard this story, and our interest was piqued. So, we decided to take a trip out near Chicago, to Kenosha, Wisconsin. It's home to one of the men at the center of this story, Carl Bryan. I was excited to meet him. From our calls in the months leading up to the trip, I knew we had a lot in common. We're both diehard sports fans.

The two of us spoke for hours about teams we ride hard for. For Carl, that's the Cubs and the Packers. For me, the Eagles. And for both 90s skits, with an appreciation for metal music. We spent an entire breakfast talking about Judas Priest and Ozfest. I'm sorry, I'm just really loving that we are working with someone that is around my same age. Yeah, right. We also talk about ourselves in a similar way.

I'm a nerd. Beyond his teams and his bands, Carl has one fandom that always comes first. I'm a walking encyclopedia of Star Wars knowledge. I mean, you'll never find a better person to have on their trivia team for Star Wars. That's just about as far as that knowledge will take me, unfortunately. Hearing Carver's.

Carl's big laugh, you'd have no idea what he's been through. He's a survivor. There is no easy way to articulate what it feels like to realize that someone you once trusted was secretly behind the very horror you were trying to escape. That was Carl just one year ago, in a courtroom holding back tears, trying to get someone he once loved, sent to prison. I couldn't understand how someone could be so calculated, so cruel, and so relentless. But he knew exactly what he was doing and he never once stopped.

He weaponized my past to gain control over me. To understand this crime, you need to understand Carl's past. So let's go back to the early 2000s, when Carl was a teenager. Picture like the typical rocker kid out of the 90s, that was Carl. That's Carl's sister, Rebecca. He had really long hair. He would wear band t-shirts every day. I even had like a denim vest with Judas Priest patches all over it and like Iron Maiden patches. For a teen like Carl, clothes were a way of telling the world who he was,

which is why when Kenosha was considering a mandate requiring all kids to wear uniforms. I said absolutely not. So I went to the school board meeting. And I might have terrified some of the parents with my appearance. At just 18, he stood up in front of a room full of people, parents, teachers, and elected officials, and delivered a speech. It seemed to have a real impact on the vote. Because there was such an uproar from people like my brother and other peers at the high school,

it ended up being shot down. There would be no uniforms at Kenosha schools, in no small part because of Carl. He had a real talent when it came to organizing people and speaking his mind. Rebecca saw that spark in him, and she got an idea. I have a very keen memory of telling him, hey, Carl, you should run for school board. I'm like, why not? You're about to be 18, right? When I was 18, I filed the paperwork and I ran. I lost the first time, but the following year, 2009, this was my freshman year in college.

I did get elected at 19. Carl went on to serve two consecutive terms on the Kenosha School Board, all while attending the University of Wisconsin. He was a go-getter, charismatic, a face in the community. Privately, though, he was hiding something. During his late teens, the time in life when you're still getting to know yourself, he wrestled with his sexuality. I had acknowledged, but buried it for a long time, that I was queer. I leaned towards dating men, but I am bisexual.

And I did not embrace this because I remember my my dad telling us very early on, if you are gay, I might as well just disown you. Shame got wired into Carl early in life. He was very culturally conservative, and he still is, still very religious. It was for that fact alone that I chose to just not acknowledge it. It was just easier for me just to suppress it. Carl spent years hiding parts of himself. So when he finally found people who accepted him, he held on tightly.

In high school and college, Carl dated women and had girlfriends. But once he graduated, he wanted to explore his bisexuality. I was encouraged by a close friend of mine at the time who just said, well, why don't you just go on dating apps and maybe try going on a date with a guy and see if you like it? And I did, and I liked it. I was like, yeah, I want to do more of this. And then it was easy for me to be like, yes, this is who I am. I am bisexual.

And I'm going to tell people that. Carl and his younger sister, Rebecca, were close in age. He was 24. She was 21. And he felt safe with her. Well, I was the first one in his family he came out to. Was it something I ever suspected? Honestly, no.

But when he told me, it wasn't like I'm gasping, catching my pearls, that type of a thing. it was just, oh, okay, thank you for telling me. Next, he told his mom. I remember being later at night. He came home, crying, and came out and told me. Sue was Christian. She'd seen people in her community get ostracized or bullied for coming out. I was fearful of that and how he would be judged and how he would not be taken seriously or looked at as a freak or

whatever kind of a thing. But Sue accepted Carl as he was. I believe 100% that that's how you are born. God makes you who you are. God does not make mistakes. It was a huge wait-off to know that people in the family were in his corner, but he still wasn't ready to reveal the truth to his dad. Then a year after Carl came out, a Pride event forced his hand. I was on the school board my first time. Kenosha Pride was just getting started. It started with a gathering in the park, and I decided I was going to go and speak. And I said that I am the first out bisexual school board member.

That made its way into the day. the Kenosha News. I haven't even had the conversation with my dad yet. I even called the editor that night before it went to print, and I was like, can you please not print that? Because, you know, this is going to, like, really mess up a lot. And he's like, yeah, it's already at the printer. There's nothing we could do.

You should probably have that conversation with your dad. There was no more kicking that can down the road. The next morning, Carl's quote appeared in the local newspaper. His dad did not take it. well. He didn't talk to me for a couple days. And then eventually he confronted me and he's like, is this true? And was it this friend that got you into this? Like I can be convinced to be gay, which couldn't be farther from the truth. They eventually made an uneasy piece. They just wouldn't talk about it. But his dad's disapproval made it hard to fully embrace who he was.

So Carl started trying to meet other gay men, people who would accept him. understand him. And I think that was really where this whole story took off. Music you love. Radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts everyone's talking about. All in one place.

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Download the free IR Radio app today. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like actor Stephen Root. I think for me to be any good or for any character actor to be any good, you've got to put enough of yourself

and your empathy for people in it. I'm a people watcher. You see that guy going down the dream and go, yeah, I can use that. Open Igloo co-founder, Alia Muhammad. I love staying. on top of what is going on in our city, what is going on in city politics, what is on renter's minds, and taking all of that knowledge to build a platform that hopefully is going to make

New York City better in the long run. And actress and singer Melissa Eriko. Partnership took on a whole other meaning when I started making my own work. It's like you with a great actress or actor. It was best to come out of your trailer, full of life, and just face another person who's full of life. and don't talk. Listen to Here's the Thing

on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Michael and Perioli. I want to tell you about my new podcast, Underground Zero. It's about what happened in the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York. We're looking at the opportunity of a lifetime for us and the other families.

While the world was mourning, five powerful New York families saw an opportunity. The debris supposed to go of the city on salvage yard, and some of it will. They would go on to make millions of dollars. What's in the tunnels? Gold bars, silver ingots. It could be worth half a billion.

And they would have made more if it hadn't been for one courageous cop. No, Dad, don't. You're going to need all of us. I'll call you when I can. Frank, be careful. Underground Zero, starring Steve Sharipa, Ray Abruzzo, and me, Michael Imperio. Would you be willing to see your family go to pieces? Some ways it already has.

Listen to Underground Zero on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody, it's me, W. Kamal Bell. This season of my podcast who's with me, I speak with two-time Emmy winner and weirdly one of my best friends, Kevin Avery. Everything up to that point, Bill G. You was a comic. Us going on the road, doing Battle Mountain and Ely. Yeah, you took me. You were one of the first people who took me on the road, which is funny because at the time, I was like, I don't know if I like this guy.

With rapper, actor, David Diggs. The jump off for me was Hamilton, and it was the most popular thing in a very long time. But it was still, for me, it was me and my friends making something dumb. Bruce Lee's daughter and Brandon Lee's sister, Shannon Lee. Back to your initial point of stewarding my father's legacy and giving my energy to that. You're lending your life to stewarding somebody else's life.

Listen to Who's With Me with Debbie Comptel on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When Carl came out, he felt excited to jump into the queer community. One of the main ways he tried to meet people was online. I started downloading some apps, and one of them I downloaded was OKCupid. It was the time. It was the time, you know. It was that and plenty of fish. For Carl, meeting people on the apps was no walk in the park.

especially because many profiles didn't have a picture of the guy's face. It was just a picture of their abs. It has become so emphasized in queer spaces. It's to the point that it almost seems toxic. If you got a nice looking torso, that's your profile picture, to the point where it's been mean to death where you'll see a person where their head is a torso. Carl can laugh about it, but he's never been that guy. And he's struggled with that for as long as he can remember.

Did you grow up overweight? Oh, yeah, I was a fat kid when I was growing up, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I really relate to Carl here. I was overweight as a kid, too. And the most painful judgment I received about it came from my own family. It was the same for Carl. My dad was quite vicious to me and my sister when we were growing up, our food choices.

and you can't have that. That's too fattening. And we're going to have to break down the wall to get you out. And so it's just awful things, awful things. When Carl entered the world of dating apps, that same judgment was there. It's not a good feeling to put yourself out there and message somebody to be like, hey, how's it going? And then just be blocked because that person is not interested in you.

Or to, like, have on their profile. I prefer people in this weight range. No fats. Really definitely had a way of impacting how I see myself. Even beyond his weight, Carl didn't always feel like he belonged in the queer community. I'm not the guy that goes every Thursday night to watch RuPaul's drag race with everybody else. His profile didn't get a lot of swipes. But one day, he was scrolling on the apps when he saw someone.

His name was Paul, Paul Augustine. I thought he was attractive. I messaged him and he responded. He seemed very engaging and interested in setting up time to get together and hang out. Paul lived in Milwaukee over an hour away, but he drove to see Carl. They met up for pizza. And quickly, one thing became clear. Paul didn't fit neatly into the gay scene either.

We were both a little outsider-ish from the community. He wasn't a nerd. or a sports fan like Carl. But he was over the top. Everything was a performance. He'd take the tiniest detail, like the way the waiter took their order or a typo on the menu,

and turn it into a bit. For some people, that might be a lot. But for Carl, it wasn't. He thought Paul was funny. He had a quirky side to him that, you know, he made it very easy to laugh. With Paul, Carl didn't feel like an outsider. He was in on the joke. They were shooting the shit like they'd known each other

forever. Carl had never had a gay friend before, and Paul was out and proud. He moved through the world like he owned it. My understanding was he came out at a very young age, and it was quite clear that, yes, he is gay. He was somebody who, you know, is unapologetically open about their sexuality. Very out. It was a confidence that Carl didn't have yet. Watching Paul be so comfortable in his own skin, he yearned to feel the same. The dinner ended and Carl felt excited about the new connection.

But after dinner, Paul told him he just wanted to be friends. So he turned you down. He did. Paul was up front. He didn't feel physically attracted to Carl. That was hard for Carl to hear. Of course, he felt like it had everything to do with his weight. Still, Paul wasn't like the other guys on these apps.

He didn't ghost Carl when he realized the attraction wasn't there. He did show commitment and willingness to, you know, make plans to do stuff. That kind of follow-through meant a lot. It was a lonely time in Carl's life. And Paul was always down to hang. We were foodies. Whenever we got together, we always liked truce. trying new places. We'd go to Italian restaurants, Mexican places, Asian places, and then afterwards

we'd go out for drinks and just would be an innocent, fun, lighthearted time. They got to spend even more time together when Carl was offered a job in Madison. I got a job working in education policy in Madison. That was really where I began the process of truly finding myself in terms of my queer identity. Paul was a big part of that. He took Carl to bars and introduced him to other queer friends. Between their in-person hangs, Paul and Carl stayed in touch. He sent me voice memos often. If there was anything that would come up in regular daily life, he would find some way to put

some quirky spin on it. Like, there was one time he was commenting on the fact that there was a date that he had planned with somebody and this particular individual wanted to go to Applebee's or something. something like that. Paul sent a lot of voice memos, and Carl enjoyed them so much. He saved them. Strike one. Suggesting Applebee's, are you serious?

Do I look like I eat processed food? Didn't think so. Look at the thigh gap, motherfucker. Like, I don't know what about the voice memos just got me to laugh, but it was hilarious. And then sometimes he would do stuff in funny voices. Release your inhibitions. Feel the rain on your skin. Or there would be like certain phrases he would pull out of everyday conversation that would turn into like an inside joke.

Like I took him to Franks diner one time and he never called it Franks. He called it pancakes because of something funny about the pancakes. And we were always referring to it like, yeah, let's do pancakes. And we knew exactly what it was. We've all had that friend, the one that you talked to and it's like you're speaking your own secret language. Paul made Carl feel like they were a club of two. It was a very unique connection that I think did not characterize any of my other friendships with people. But I just, it was interesting.

And it's what kept the friendship entertaining, I think. Paul had his own way of doing things and some weird ideas of fun. There's a theater in Milwaukee that it's like an Asian movie theater. And there's gold lions everywhere. And he would like to go there just to stare at the gold lions and kick his feet up. I feel like I'm in the Lion King except like classier. We would just get popcorn and soda and just sit there and look at the gold lions and act like boogie bitches, you know? And it was fun.

Paul could create his own reality like that. At other times, he was willing to follow Carl's lead. Carl took Paul to his first ever Cubs game. He didn't know a damn thing about baseball, but like he expressed the openness to not just, hang out with me and enjoy the time, but also invest in another part of me and just enjoy that side of myself. That it was just really nice to have a friend. They quickly became close. Paul was a good laugh and always down for an adventure. Still, Carl continued to crave a romantic relationship. He knew he wasn't getting that with Paul,

so he kept his eyes open. In February of 2016, a year of After moving to Madison, Carl took a visit home. I had come down from Madison to hang out with some friends and family and went out to the gay bar here in Kenosha. At the bar, Carl was introduced to a cute guy. He had dark hair, soft green eyes, and a cheeky smile. His name was Adam, Adam Mejia. They have dancing cages at the club, and I definitely wasn't dancing that night,

but I was just like looking over at him while just like chilling on the side, having a couple of drinks or whatever. I was like, damn, he's a really good dancer. I like his vibe. But Adam was more than a good time. Later that night, talking to each other, I saw really quickly that this is a person who just really has a big heart. And I come to find out as I'm getting to know him, that he's also a nurse and that compassion really shows up in his work. I immediately thought like, yeah, damn, he's really cute. There was only one issue. Adam had a boyfriend.

That's who he was out with that night. This is my first time meeting them, you know, just getting to know them. I kind of thought there's a chance I'll probably never even see these people again, you know, whatever, just enjoying the time. Carl had no expectations. And he had no idea how important Adam would become in his life. But I remember quite distinctly that

About a month after that hangout session, him and his boyfriend had broken up and he was already asking my friend about me. And I was really quite flattered because I was kind of a person that I would have preferred to like blend in because of my insecurities. The abs made him feel invisible. Paul might have meant well, but he had made Carl feel like he was only friendship material. Finally, with Adam, someone saw him. And Adam liked what he saw. And I was like, wow, is this a chance at actual romance? I never had a boyfriend before.

Their friend connected them, and they set a date. We met a little town called Burlington at one of the little coffee shops out there, and we hit it off really well. Immediately, the connection felt real. It was just easy for me to be myself. Eventually, we would drive around town. We ended up having a little love. a bunch of McDonald's or something like that.

And before you knew it, like, yeah, we were making out in my car the side of the road someplace. It was a good first date. But Carl knew it couldn't be serious. He was coming out of a previous relationship and dealing with some stuff with that. Things stayed Platonic for a while. For years, Adam was another best friend. Still, Carl held out hope for romance. There was something always about it that just felt like, you know, this isn't the end.

It was disappointing, but Carl liked Adam so much he'd settle for friendship. He wanted Adam in his life. With Paul, he could goof around and keep things pretty light. But Adam was soulful, thoughtful. It was no surprise he was a nurse. He cared about people. Adam's really down to earth. I loved that about it.

him. He is not afraid to be himself. He's very secure in his own skin and he leads with all of his heart. There is a person there that really has a lot of love to give. Both Carl and Adam dated other people but hung out as friends. And then a few years into knowing each other, Carl sensed a change in the dynamic. He was calling and texting more. I mean, we would make plans to hang out every day. And there was definitely a lot of, you know, touching. There was definitely a lot of nice words being exchanged. And the vibes seemed a lot different like he was ready to explore the possibility of a relationship. They started hooking up. Adam began spending the night. Do you guys define their relationship? It was really hard to put a label on it. I mean, the L word was thrown

around all the time. And we were doing boyfriend things all the time. but I was totally afraid of trying to put a definition on what we were or placing boundaries on what we were doing because I didn't want to upset him. I didn't want to feel as though like I was overwhelming him or anything like that. We've all been there, so enthralled with a new fling that we're afraid to say anything that could rock the boat. For Carl, it went deeper.

He'd spent his whole life struggling with his weight and body image, trying to make himself smaller. more agreeable, more worthy of love. He was prepared to stay silent if it meant holding on to what they had. But eventually, Adam got there on his own. He chose an indirect way to let Carl know he wanted to be together. We were just hanging out, chilling in his bedroom. And he's like, you should check Facebook.

And I looked, and then status had changed. And it was like, Carl Bryan is in a relationship with Adam Mejia. I was like, whoa! That was something I was hoping for for a long time, right? And like, probably the first time that he was willing to acknowledge it and do it publicly, I'm like, this is like, this is going to be real, isn't it? Like, this is going to happen. It was the winter of 2021 when Adam became Carl's first real boyfriend.

He definitely was a guy who saw me for who I was. I had always kind of come around this idea that being overweight was just simply unacceptable. It was always easier for me to just hide myself because I just did not want to be seen. And he made every gesture to show me that weight did not matter to him. This was finally somebody who saw me as a person. Carl was happy or happy enough to not see him. what Adam was carrying. Both Carl and Adam drank a lot.

I think I was like every other Wisconsinite, to be quite honest with you when it came to alcohol. Like I like to party. I like to, you know, hit the sauce. But when Adam drank, chaos always seemed to follow. At the time, Adam was living with his parents. His parents basically said, you can stay here, but if you ever get drunk again,

we're kicking you out. he was doing everything he could to like push past those boundaries without getting caught. Carl helped him with that. When he was drunk, rather than go home directly, I would show up right on time and we would be going to McDonald's or playing Pokemon Go or whatever just to kill the time. I started getting into this trend of renting hotel rooms to rescue him from his parents so his parents wouldn't spot his. him being drunk that started to really take off. They got into a routine. And at first it was fun because it was like, you know,

hey, if he's going to drink, then whatever, I'll drink too. We'll just have a hotel party, whatever, no big deal, or we'll just have a night on the town. The fun came first. Carl was 29 and in love for the first time. So he was okay with being part boyfriend, part drinking buddy, part caretaker. He was willing to do anything to feel close to Adam, at least for the time being.

The whole thing was amazing, but I honestly had no idea how off the rails it was really going to go. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Do we want to jump right in? Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free IHard Radio app. Make some noise. Wooee! Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like Bestie Listen, Hey Jonas and Las Cultureistas. Now with full video

I'll just leave that there It's the same hosts and the same chemistry With all the hilarious moments you've been missing Right on your screen Open the free IR Radio app Search video podcasts and tap watch Hi, it's Alec Baldwin This season on my podcast

Here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists Policymakers and performers Like actor Stephen Root I think for me to be any good Or for any character actor to be any good You've got to put enough of yourself and your empathy for people in it. I'm a people watcher.

You see that guy going down the dream? Yeah, I can use that. Open Igloo co-founder, Alia Mohamed. I love staying on top of what is going on in our city, what is going on in city politics, what is on renter's minds, and taking all of that knowledge to build a platform that hopefully is going to make New York City better in the long run.

And actress and singer Melissa Eriko. Partnership took on a whole other meaning. when I started making my own work. It's like you with a great actress or actor. It was best to come out of your trailer, full of life, and just face another person who's full of life and don't talk. Listen to Here's the Thing

on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Michael Imperioli. I want to tell you about my new podcast, Underground Zero. It's about what happened in the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York. We're looking at the opportunity of a lifetime

for us and the other families. While the world was mourning, five powerful New York families saw an opportunity. The debris supposed to go to the city-owned salvage and some of it will. They would go on to make millions of dollars. What's in the tunnels? Gold bars, silver ingots.

It could be worth half a billion. And they would have made more if it hadn't been for one courageous cop. No, Dad, don't. You're gonna need all of us, I'll call you when I can. Frank B. Be careful. Underground Zero, starring Steve Sharipa, Rea Brutzo, and me, Michael Imperioly.

Would you be willing to see your family go to pieces? Some ways it already has. Listen to Underground Zero on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's me, W. Comaubel. This season of my podcast who's with me, I speak with two-time Emmy Winner, and weirdly one of my best friends, Kevin Avery. Everything up to that point Build you as a comic Us going on the road

Doing Battle Mountain and Ely Yeah you took me You were one of the first people Took me on the road Which is funny because at the time I was like I don't know if I like this guy With rapper, actor,

David Diggs The jump off for me was Hamilton And it was the most popular thing in a very long time But it was still for me It was me and my friends Making something dumb Bruce Lee's daughter

And Brandon Lee's sister Shannon Lee Back to your initial point of stewarding my father's legacy and giving my energy to that. You're lending your life to stewarding somebody else's life. Listen to Who's With Me with with Debbie Kumal Bell on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just as Carl was turning 30, his life was starting to take shape. He had his first boyfriend, Adam. And now that he had a boyfriend, he didn't see his friend Paul as much.

Adam didn't like Paul, and Paul was busy with a new relationship of his own. But by this time, Carl had a ton of other queer friends in Madison. And he had a great job working in education policy for the state of Wisconsin. In like 2018 or 2019, I had heard that for state employees, they were going to cover gastric bypass. So I talked to my doctor and I was like, could I get signed up? And she's like, yeah. For Carl, this was about much more than his appearance. He had high blood pressure and other health issues exacerbated by his weight.

Still, gastric bypass surgery is not a quick fix. It's a commitment. It was like an eight-month program before the surgery. Carl complied with all the diet and lifestyle changes required to move forward. The day arrived in early October 2020. Sitting in his hospital gown in a chilly prep room, Carl thought about the risks he was taking with this type of procedure. When he considered the worst case scenarios,

he thought of his boyfriend, Adam. I remember telling him before the surgery. If something happens to me in surgery, I just want you to know that I love you. Thankfully, the surgery went well. In fact, it was life-changing. Over the next several months, Carl lost 150 pounds.

I'm so glad that I did it. I went down from like a size 44 to a size 36. I do not have sleep apnea anymore. And my mental health had improved insanely. October 1st, 2020 was my surgery. I actually have that date tattooed on me. Why? It was significant.

Like it feels like it's a important milestone. It really feels like that was kind of, one major step into me becoming myself. Carl was improving his relationship with his body. He had embraced his sexuality and become part of the queer community. He had accomplished so many goals by his 30th birthday. If he could make his relationship with Adam what he envisioned, life would be perfect.

My lease was coming up at my apartment in Madison, and I think that was when we had explored living together. So we landed in Burlington where we went on our first date. So it felt like this was meant to be. Carl thought the move would bring them closer. But it didn't take long for reality to set in. Day one, he was at the bar downtown. I had gotten the keys.

I started moving boxes. I wanted to show him the place. He'd gotten off work. and he got real drunk. I was like, so what's going to happen? Are you not excited about this? I just signed a lease. We're going to live together.

He was so hopeful, and he wanted this so badly, that he refused to see what was right in front of him. Adam had a problem. Drinking came first. That night, instead of talking things out and settling in at their new place, Adam got in his car. He sped off to his parents' house,

drunk. I followed him home. He was driving into the wrong lanes. He luckily got to his parents' house, not without him going to the gas station on the way and getting some gym beam or whatever it was. The next weekend, it was the same thing. While Carl was setting up the apartment,

Adam got drunk. And I had a nervous breakdown on the carpet. Like I laid on the floor just having a breakdown because he was completely wasted. I just signed this lead. and I just uprooted my life and we're already off on this foot. Then in the morning, Adam said just what Carl needed to hear. I'm really sorry I'm going to cut back on drinking and I'm still committed to this relationship.

We're going to work on this. Become the next weekend. It was wash, rinse, repeat. Looking back on it, Adam was just simply not ready for a relationship. I did start to wonder if he was in this for the freedom of being out of his parents' house. I mean, I knew that when he moved back to his parents that if they knew he was drinking, they would kick him out. I'd gone into it with the intention of trying to rescue him because, you know, I loved him. There's so much hope. Yeah.

Even if it's just like not meant to be in like this move should not happen, you want to believe. Right, right. And it was so impulsive. When he was eventually fully moved in, there would be drunken arguments all the time about any rams. random thing. He asked one time if he could take my car to go to his parents' house to run a quick errand. And before you know it, he was gone for five hours. And he would come home completely drunk. And I'd be like, what the hell is going on in your mind? You said you were just going to be gone for an hour. You were gone for four or five. Sometimes when the two of them were drinking,

they got aggressive with each other, like this night. He's starting to get like belligerent once to start fighting, and I think he charged it at me, and I closed the door, and then he starts kicking in the door, so the door is completely off the hinges and is damaged. Carl was frustrated. He wanted to be enough for Adam to be the reason he cut down on drinking. In his fantasy world, they would be the perfect couple. But Carl's day-to-day was much more about navigating the next blow-up. Even in the thick of all of this, there were times when Carl felt like he was with the best version of Adam, the one he had fallen for. He saw it when, for Adam's birthday, they took a trip to Lake Superior.

Honestly, a whole different world from the rest of Wisconsin. This untapped natural beauty that, like, when you're in it, it just feels spiritual where you're there. We did a lot of hiking for three days, did a kayak tour, and we were on the beach just looking out on the water and he was like teary-eyed because of just how beautiful the scenery was and how just perfect the

trip was and there was just something about it that felt so pure and so like I was exactly where I wanted to be and then we made little you know heart in the sand you know Carl and Adam 2021 and took pictures of that

it was just really adorable just something about that weekend. It was just magical the whole thing from beginning to end. For all the volatility in their relationship, moments like this made being with Adam feel worth it. There was no one else he'd rather drive for hours into the middle of nowhere with. No one who made him feel more comfortable or more attractive. It was worth all the chaos if, at the end of it, he could call this person his. The vacation high felt good. It felt normal.

But the peace didn't last. After we had gotten back, everything was like downhill after that. More and more, Carl was at a loss. There were many nights when he drank with Adam just to feel connected to him. And to numb his own pain. At other times, his frustrations would break through. When I got angry, I knew exactly what I needed to say for it to hurt. I'm not proud of that trait at all.

Did I say things I didn't mean? Totally, 100%. The two of them were going down a dark road. Carl knew that. But he wasn't ready to let go. He threw the relationship a Hail Mary. We got a dog together. We went to a animal shelter in one of the counties over

and found the cutest little beagle basset hound ever. I love dogs. He loves dogs, the whole bit. Carl was smitten with the little guy. He was so friendly and he was like wagging his tail, giving us kisses. This new addition was more than a pet. It was another step toward the life he hoped they were building together. It was like, yes, this is what could really seal the deal, you know, some shared investment in, you know, another life.

We kind of feel like a little family, kind of just doing the thing. As a tribute to the Cubs, they named their new dog Riggily. It was such a band-aid. About two weeks later, we broke up. It was over the drinking. He was out at the bar all night. I think this was one of those I'm going to have one beer kind of thing, and he didn't come home until like 3 a.m. or whatever it was.

The next morning, I came in and he was visibly hung over. I said, this is done. We are not saving this relationship anymore. We tried. And after every single attempt, it always comes back to the same thing. You are packing your stuff and you are leaving. And he accepted that. And he did.

But that day of the breakup wouldn't be the last of Adam. Adam had been out of the apartment for about a week. It was after Thanksgiving and my birthday. The whole family wanted a low-key celebration. His mom and sister had been there supporting him through the heartbreak. So that night, his family came over with some pizza or birthday cake and beer. Carl's sister Rebecca remembers. It was a really peaceful night because we were just like, it's over.

We could kind of get this in the past. I think we're probably about a half hour into hanging out when I get a knock at the door. I already knew who it was when I had heard it. Adam showed up. He comes to the front door, and he was drinking quite heavily. Carl blocked Adam from coming into the apartment. He wanted to keep whatever this was from escalating. His family was watching the whole thing.

He's like, I just want to see the dog. I just want to see the dog. So I put Wrigley on the leash, and I let Riggley, kind of do his thing and, you know, I let Adam interact with him. But after a few minutes outside, it became clear how drunk Adam was. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but you can't be here. When I told him he needed to go, he was like, fuck you, I'm never talking to you again, never speak to me again, this is the last time you're ever going to see me.

And he hops in his car and he just speeds off. and I had this pit in my stomach. I'm thinking of myself, oh my God, something bad's going to happen. I'm thinking to myself after the heat of that moment. I should have called an Uber. The whole scene left a heavy air over the family party. Carl cleaned up and went to bed, but the moment haunted him. It was a night Carl would come to replay over and over in his head.

I had no idea that everything to come and all of the moment. of the chaos that all of us went through would come back to this moment. The next morning, I'm on a work call, and then all of a sudden my phone's getting blown up. Adam was calling from the Racine County Jail. He'd gotten a car accident with another person, and both of the cars were totaled. Adam ran a red light and rear ended another car. The other driver was a man in his 70s. Thankfully, both of them walked away with only minor injuries.

which is a miracle, because the front of Adam's car was completely crushed on impact. For Adam, the accident was life-altering, because this was his fourth DUI. He was arrested on the scene and brought to jail. It was just like immense guilt, immense guilt that I was feeling. I should have called an Uber. I read the police reports and I was just immediately horrified. the police had opened up the door to Adam's car and all these empty alcohol bottles were located and things like that.

In December of 2021, Adam was sentenced to 15 months behind bars. He wouldn't be released until the spring of 2023. Adam and Carl called each other regularly in those first few months. The conversations grew increasingly tense. He said it quite frequently that, like, yeah, he was upset that I didn't call an oom. They often got into it on the phone. And I heard a lot of stories about what he went through, especially being a gay man, like in the Racine County jail, not a pleasant experience at all.

I was feeling a lot of guilt. Eventually, Adam cut off contact entirely. He didn't want to talk to me anymore. Suddenly, his greatest love was gone. The person he came to share in. every story, every laugh with, dreamed of a future with, disappeared from Carl's life. There was no chance of getting back together. But in his time of need, when he felt more alone that he'd felt in years, Carl reached out to

his old friend Paul Augustine, the friend we told you about earlier, his first queer friend. I spent time with Paul significantly after Adam and I broke up. Did he bring like laughter back into your life after this dark time? Yeah, he did. After what I had gone through, that's what I needed to cope. It was just nice to relax and not think about the reality of what I was facing. There was more to their relationship this time around. I know it was a difficult time for him too because his boyfriend had passed.

away. And he was having a hard time of it himself. Earlier that year, Paul's boyfriend died suddenly in the middle of the night, seemingly from health problems related to alcoholism. I think that shared experience of being two exes of individuals that have had significant alcohol problems, trying to make sense of a really traumatic fallout, Paul, was there. He was somebody I could lean on for support. Over dinners and drinks or sitting on the couch in Carl's apartment, the two of them talked about everything, stories of hard conversations and blow up fights. I shared a lot of stuff about that relationship with him. He was somebody

that I confided in quite a lot. Carl felt safe with Paul, so much so that he opened up to Paul about his biggest fear. What was Adam going to do when he got out of prison? I don't know what his intentions are. That was kind of what was going through my mind at that time. Those calls from the early days of Adam's incarceration stuck with Carl. The way Adam blamed him for not calling an Uber, for letting him drive away.

After getting transferred from the local jail, Adam was now serving his sentence at a state prison. And it was no country club. He was in the company of murderers, rapists, the most hardcore criminals in Wisconsin. Carl couldn't shake the question. When Adam got out, would he come looking for revenge? Carl didn't know it at the time. But from the moment Adam went away, a plan was set in motion, a betrayal that no one would see coming.

A long con, so calculated and ruthless, it would leave their families. community in pieces. This season on betrayal. Hello, this is Adam. You know who this is. He said someone there had a knife. He was asking me, like, if I wanted you to kill somebody, how much would we charge? They basically put it all on me.

Like, I was the one responsible for all of the shit. The obsession became insane. What the fuck is going on? If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple

podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunnick, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcuri. Our associate producer is Leah Jablo. additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt.

Our IHard team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreinsk. Audio editing, mixing, and mastering by Matt Dalvecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolesi, and their communities. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mide Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Michael Imperioli. I want to tell you about my new podcast, Underground Zero.

We're looking at the opportunity of a lifetime for us and the other families. It's about the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks. What's in the tunnels? Gold bars, Silver Ingets. It could be worth half a billion. Starring Steve Sharipa, Rea Abruzzo, and me, Michael Imperioly. How far you're prepared to go? Depends how far you are.

Listen to Underground Zero on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, Here's the Thing, I talk to actor Stephen Root. I'm a people watcher. You see that guy going down to the ring, yeah, I can use that. And Open Igloo co-founder, Alia Mohamed. I love staying on top of what is going on in our city, what is on renter's minds, and taking all of that knowledge to build a platform that hopefully is going to make New York City better in the long run. Listen to Here's the Thing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Mimi Brown, and every day on Front Page podcast, I help you make sense of the stories shaping our world. Each day, I break down the biggest headlines. Canada's trade fight with the U.S. just escalated again, and Americans could fill it in their wallets. And when a story deserves a deeper conversation, I'll sit down with experts, newsmakers, and thought leaders to help you better understand the issue behind the headlines.

Listen to Front Page from the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pipman, chairman and CEO of IHeartMedia and host of the podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I have some new exciting interviews coming to the Math and Magic feed this fall. IHeart's own Hoda Kotbe is joining me to talk about her new business venture and podcast, Joy 101. Your timeline is not anybody else's. Stay in the game and let them find you.

I'm also talking to Capital One's Mark Mentry and marketing executive Diego Scottie. Purpose dribble marketing should be part of your mainstream marketing. Listen to math and magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.