Betrayal Weekly - Serial Killers & Murderous Minds Meets Betrayal | Ed Kemper Part 1 | BONUS

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

In a special collaboration episode, Andrea Gunning joins Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Engels on Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to break down the crimes of Ed Kemper, who murdered at least six young women who accepted rides from him while hitchhiking in the 1970s. His violence traced back to a childhood marked by abuse, abandonment, and early cruelty toward animals and family. After killing his grandparents at 15 and years in a psychiatric facility, Kemper returned to society having learned exactly how to manipulate the people meant to stop him, including the doctors evaluating him. To hear more, follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds: https://pod.link/1769285458See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey everyone, Andrea here. You know, I spend most of my time on Betrayal Weekly digging into stories of broken trust and the damage it leaves behind. So when the team at serial killers and murderous minds asked me to guest on a deep dive into Ed Kemper, I jumped at it. This is a case I know well. A few years back, I worked on a documentary called Kemper on Kemper. sitting with the psychology of one of the most notorious killers in American history.

Today I'm sharing that episode with you. I joined host Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels to get into Kemper's story, a childhood defined by ridicule, the rage that festered underneath, and the six young women he murdered in 1970s, California, before he turned on the person who tormented him most, his own mother. A heads up before we start, this episode can be. contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence. Please listen with care.

Here's part one. For part two of the episode, including a discussion between me, Vanessa, and Dr. Engels, follow serial killers and murderous minds wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Crimehouse. Some people have a keen sense of human nature. They understand people's motives, fears, and behavioral patterns. many use that trait for good. They show their loved one's support, set their employees up for success, or simply avoid anyone

with toxic tendencies. At the same time, some use their people skills for selfish reasons. They get a sense of someone's tendencies and exploit them, whether it's for money, sex, their own personal validation, or something else. Ed Kemper was one of those people, except he didn't just use others to get ahead. He used them to commit some of the most shocking crimes America has ever seen and reshaped what we thought we knew about the killer mind. The human mind is powerful.

It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and murderous minds, a crimehouse original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm forensic psychologist, Dr. Tristan Engels. And for the next two episodes, Vanessa and I are... thrilled to welcome a very special guest, Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal Weekly podcast. Thanks for having me.

Of course. We're happy to have you. We're thrilled. For everyone listening, if you're not following Betrayal Weekly, make sure to go do it now. Every week, Andrea shares firsthand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. It's an absolute must listen, and I make sure to catch every episode. Same here. Andrea, we love how you approach your.

cases and we are especially excited to have you on for these episodes because you worked on a documentary on Ed Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. Yes, that's right. I work for Glass Entertainment Group and we produced a documentary for oxygen a few years back about Ed Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. And we unpacked his crimes through his own perspective, using his own words from his interviews with law enforcement. Amazing. We can't wait to get your insights on this case over the next two episodes, Andrea will introduce you to Ed Kemper, then be sure to stick around at the end of Part 2 for an extended conversation between Andrea and Dr. Engels, as they break down what makes this case so fascinating and absolutely terrifying.

Before I hand it off, I want to mention that Crime House exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crimehouse Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad-free. No waiting three days for Part 2. Plus, Crime House bonus episodes every month. To join, go to Crimehouseplus.com, or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap try free at the top of the serial killers and murderous minds page. As we get started, be advised that this episode contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence. So please listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Dr. Engels begin their deep dive into Ed Kemper, one of the most notorious serial killers in American history.

In 1970s, California, Ed murdered at least six young female hitchhikers until finally turning his rage on the person who tormented him most, his own mother. And as Vanessa goes through the story, Dr. Engels will be talking about things like why a childhood defined by ridicule can manifest in violence, how incarceration in early adulthood can impact development, why some killers use complex post-mortem rituals to prolong the thrill. And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? Violence was ingrained in Ed Kemper from the moment he came into the world.

He was born in Burbank, California, on December 18, 1948. His father, Edmund Kemper II, was a World War II Special Forces combat veteran, who went on to work as an electrician. His mother, Clarenell, stayed home to care for Ed and his two sisters, Alan and Susan. Ed's dad was his dad. hero. He reveled in his war stories, including the ones about how he killed enemy soldiers. Edmund thought it was good for his son to hear those things. He believed he was teaching him how to be a man, but Clarenell disapproved. In fact, there wasn't much she agreed with her

husband on. She often berated Edmund for bringing home such a meager salary. She desperately longed for a better life, and she used alcohol to cope with the fact that she didn't have it. Clarnel's drinking fueled her in Edmund's fights, and his behavior wasn't much better. He often stormed out in a huff and wouldn't return for days. When he wasn't around, Clernel was especially harsh toward Ed. Whenever she lost her temper, she beat him viciously. In Ed's mind, it was her way of taking out her anger toward his dad. Children learn how to communicate, express their emotions, and treat others through what's modeled to them from their caregivers.

It's what we call social learning theory. And Ed is growing up in an extremely volatile environment, so he's not getting the best model of this. And the conflict in his home is not just between his parents or interparental, it's being displaced onto him as well. This environment can also create deficits with attachment. This is always critical to consider when the people a child is meant to depend on for safety and stability are also the source of harm or distress. Living in an environment like this, for a prolonged period of time without any stabilizing adult can affect how Ed approaches trust, intimacy, and emotional regulation. Now, Ed, thinking that his mother was taking her anger out on him, makes sense. He's a child who has been hearing and observing his parents' conflict for years.

Children often personalize interparental conflict because they don't have the cognitive and emotional maturity to fully understand the complexities of adult relationships, or in this case, the impact alcohol can have on his mother's judgment or her behavior. He's simply trying to understand why he's being punished, and so he's using the information that's available to him. But if he comes to believe that he is being punished for problems that exist between his parents, that can create resentment in multiple areas. Resentment toward his mother for hurting him,

resentment toward his father for not protecting him, and resentment toward relationships in general, if they repeatedly become associated with pain, conflict, or, instability. By growing up in this kind of household, do you think Ed was forced to bottle up his emotions? And if he was, how could that have impacted him in the long run? I don't know if he was necessarily forced to bottle up his emotions, but he did later say that he felt powerless. Children who grow up in explosive or unpredictable households like this often internalize the belief that expressing certain emotions isn't safe for them. And if a parent is unpredictable or abusive, children tend to

stop expressing emotions because they're either ignored, punished for it, or escalate a conflict somehow. They don't understand what will set off their unpredictable caregiver, and their caregiver doesn't always communicate the connection between the punishment and the behavior. So the child learns to shrink themselves, to avoid being responsible for their reaction. So instead, many children become hypervigilant. They start reading the room and monitoring the moods of others. And then pretty soon they've spent most of their time focused on surviving their environment. They've never learned to understand their own feelings. And that can create difficulties with their own emotional regulation.

And if you've never learned to express your emotions, they don't just disappear. They often build up. And that often leads to expressing them later in unhealthy ways. Well, eventually, Clarenell and Edmund divorced. But for Ed, the psychological damage was already done. He was nine years old when they separated, and he felt completely abandoned by his father, the only person in the world who understood him. And when he and his mom and siblings moved to Helena, Montana, Ed started showing some dark tendencies. His resentment quickly morphed into something more sinister.

Ed started experiencing violent, elaborate fantasies, which he couldn't help but act on. When no one was looking, he stole his sister's dolls and removed their heads. and as he stared down at their small, disfigured bodies, he felt a sense of sexual enjoyment. Soon, Ed was chasing the thrill. He didn't just want to dismember dolls. He wanted to cause real feelings of torture. So he set his sights on the family cat.

One day, Ed buried the animal alive, and later, he dug its body back up and decapitated it. Afterward, Ed realized how much he enjoyed the act of killing. It didn't even need to be allowed. for him to gain a sense of pleasure, like on another occasion when he shot and killed the neighbor's dog. Everyone who knew Ed found his entire demeanor disturbing, including his sisters.

They saw him as a troubling nuisance. As a way to toy with him, they once pushed him into a swimming pool, even though they knew he couldn't swim. Ed managed to get out safely, and he wanted revenge. One day, as he cleaned his rifle in the living room, Alan walked in.

When Ed saw her, he immediately fired his gun in her direction, hitting the wall behind her. Ed pretended it was an accident. Eventually, Clarenell had enough of Ed's behavior. She was afraid he'd hurt his sisters at night while they slept. So she set up a cot in the basement and forced Ed to sleep down there. She even locked the door so he couldn't get out. Ed was furious at his mother for doing that to him, and his anger was worsened by the fact that she openly mocked him,

Claire Nell made fun of Ed for not having any friends. She told him no girl would ever be interested in him. Ed appears to be a child who is repeatedly experiencing fear, humiliation, and powerlessness, and then responding in increasingly alarming and dangerous ways. But arguably, pushing him into a pool when he couldn't swim and then walking away is alarming too. But with Ed's behaviors, what's also concerning is the response to, he gets in return. Every time he's engaging in these alarming behaviors, he doesn't seem to be taught healthier ways to regulate the emotions that drove those behaviors to begin with. Instead,

he's met with more isolation, more rejection, and more humiliation. Being forced to sleep in a locked basement may have solved an immediate safety concern, at least on the surface, but there's nothing to address the actual behaviors themselves. There's no conversation to understand why he did what he did. Locking him in the basement just further isolated him and likely alienated him or made him feel less valued, especially if his sisters received no punishment for their behavior toward him. Then on top of that, his mother mocks him, tells him he has no friends and that no girl will ever want him. That's psychological abuse, and that can compound. And if she's doing this in front of his sisters or with his sisters, then he's continued to feel rejected by his entire family sister.

just after he was humiliated by his sisters in the pool. These experiences, especially if consistent, can build resentment, shame, and loneliness over time. Again, no one seems to be helping Ed understand or manage what he's feeling. Everyone is reacting to his behavior and understandably because, again, it's concerning, it's very alarming, but no one appears to be addressing the behavior itself or the emotions underneath it. In general, What can happen in the brain when a child feels unloved and unwanted by their parents? In general, the brain can begin interpreting feeling unloved, unwanted, or chronically rejected, as a threat to safety and survival.

Prolong stress can keep the body's threat detection system activated more often than it's supposed to be, making a child more hypervigilant and sensitive to signs of rejection, criticism, or danger. And it can also affect areas of the brain involved in emotional regulation, decision-making in memory. For example, chronic stress has been associated with a more reactive amygdala, which is involved in fear and emotional processing. It's associated with changes in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory, to name a few. Of course, it can get much deeper than that, but those are just the broad strokes. Not every child will experience these changes, and none of this determines their outcome, but this is an example in general of how chronic prolong stress can

affect a developing brain. By the time Ed was 14, he couldn't take it anymore. He wanted to get far away from his mother. So on Thanksgiving Day, 1963, he stole her car and drove it to Butte, Montana before catching a bus to his father's house in Van Nuys, California. Ed was hoping to move in with his dad and be free of his mom for good, but when he got there, he was in for a rude awakening. His father had remarried, and his new wife didn't want Ed living with him. So his dad drove him to his paternal grandparents' farmhouse. Grandpa Ed and Grandma Maude took him in. It seemed like a fresh start for Ed, but not everyone was happy about it.

When Clernel learned what happened, she berated her ex-husband. She told him about how Ed had killed their cat and the neighbor's dog. Then she said Ed would kill his grandparents eventually. Clairenell's warnings fell on deaf ears, and within weeks, Ed developed the same rage toward Maude that he felt toward his mother. Not only was Maude extremely strict and refused to let him socialize with other kids, but she openly complained about how much it cost to take care of him. Ed's grandfather was more sympathetic. He knew being a young man growing up on a farm wasn't easy, so for Christmas he gifted Ed a 22-caliber rifle to occupy his time. He thought,

Ed could practice shooting small game on the property. Ed was ecstatic. For months, he killed whatever animals he crossed paths with, but his grandparents were disturbed by all the carcasses he left behind, so they briefly took the gun away. However, Ed talked his grandfather into giving it back, which turned out to be a tragic mistake. On August 27, 1964, Maude sat at the dining room table writing on her typewriter.

She had no idea. Fifteen-year-old Ed was standing behind her, or that he'd aimed his rifle directly at her. Without warning, Ed pulled the trigger three times, hitting his grandmother in the back and head. She died instantly. Afterward, Ed grabbed a knife from the kitchen and stabbed her several times.

Suddenly, Ed noticed his grandfather's truck pulling up to the house. He couldn't bear the thought of his grandfather, seeing what he'd done. So he snuck up behind him and shot him in the head. Immediately afterward, Ed knew what he'd done was wrong and that he needed help, so he turned to an unlikely source. His mother, he sobbed into the receiver admitting to his actions, and Clernel called the police.

When they arrived, Ed was sitting on the front porch waiting for them. Even though he knew what he'd done was wrong, that didn't mean he felt bad about it. He told officers, quote, I just wanted to see what it felt like to kill grandma. I just want to highlight that learning that his father had a new family and that he wasn't welcome there once he got there was another rejection for him. And that's important and it's not something to gloss over. Now, when Ed says he wanted to see what it felt like to kill his grandmother, I think that represents a detachment from understanding, at least psychologically, the gravity of the edge.

act, especially if he has spent a long time fantasizing about it. Fantasy-driven offenders fantasize for a significant amount of time before they act. And because of that, they can become so focused on curiosity, experimentation, or rehearsal that they rarely focus on appreciating the reality of their fantasy in practice. Or they've already been practicing on animals, and there are no real consequences that they can transfer to this experience. And I think because of that, he had to confront the reality of what he had done and faced real consequences for the first time in his life. But what I find especially interesting in this moment is that after he kills his grandparents, he then calls his mother. Despite all resentment and conflict, she's still his mother. Children don't simply stop needing

their parents, even if their relationship with them is unhealthy. He didn't call his father. He called her. In moments of crisis, it's actually very common for people to reach for familiar attachment figures. What do you think it says about Ed that he confessed so quickly? I mean, he just sat there waiting and he said, I, you know, I did it. I just wanted to see what it felt like. Do you think it's possible that the entire incident was maybe just a cry for help? A cry for help usually implies that the person consciously intended for someone to intervene before something happened. And I don't know that that's what this is. I don't know that. That's what this is. I think that it's true that Ed was at a breaking point. Throughout his childhood, he's repeatedly

experienced conflict, rejection, humiliation, isolation, and increasingly concerning behavior, which you've highlighted for us. But then, after killing his parents, he calls his mother for direction. She calls the police and tells him to wait for them. He listens. In this moment, like we talked about, the weight of the reality setting in, Ed is a teenager, and the only place he has to go is back with his mother. His father wasn't going to accept him. So it's possible, and again, this is speculation because I've never evaluated at myself, but it's possible that he chose to confess to his mother and follow her directions because he knew she was his only practical and realistic option in that moment. And if you recall from his childhood, we've talked about how children

who grow up with unpredictable and volatile parents sometimes learn that obedience, compliance, or appeasement can help them navigate those relationships more safely. So confessing and following her instructions could be a reflection of that, especially because he depends on her heavily right now. He doesn't know what's going to happen after the police get there. That's what his mother is for. And at the end of the day, he's a teenager with no money, no resources, and nowhere else to go. Whether or not Ed regretted what he'd done, he certainly regretted where it landed him.

Because he was just 15 at the time of the murders, he wasn't charged as an adult. But clearly, the court saw something was deeply wrong with him. So instead, he was found to be mentally ill and committed to the Atascadero State Hospital for the criminally insane, which housed and treated around 1,600 mentally ill prisoners. The remaining years of Ed's young adulthood would now be spent among violent criminals and sex offenders. And he planned to learn everything he could from him. them. In 1964, 15-year-old Ed Kemper was sent to a Tascadero State Hospital for the criminally insane after killing his grandparents. When he arrived, Ed underwent a series of

psychological evaluations. At first, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but Ed's doctors were also fascinated to discover he had an unusually high IQ, and as they ran more tests, they began to question their diagnosis. Ed didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinies. Ed didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinations like they expected. He didn't show any evidence of unusual thought patterns either, so they struggled to form a clear understanding of his mind's inner workings. But Ed was learning a lot about them. Throughout all the tests, he paid close attention to the terminology doctors used. He also noticed that the more interest he showed in his own mental health, the more they explained to him, and eventually he earned their trust. Ed's doctors enlisted his

help testing other patients. He even helped develop new tests. To the doctors, this was a major sign of rehabilitation. In reality, Ed had figured out what doctors needed to hear to deem someone fit to rejoin society. He memorized all the right responses. And eventually, he tricked his doctors into believing he was well enough to leave. In 1969, when Ed was 21, he was officially released on parole after five years at the hospital. But even, even though, he was in the hospital. But even After his release, he wasn't totally free because he had no choice but to move back in with his mother, Claire Nell. Ed's mom had moved to California. She worked at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She was even more resentful toward him now that he was a convicted murderer and had killed their own family members.

Ed tried to find a silver lining to his new living situation. In the early 1970s, the Oceanfront community was a hub for college students, hippies and surfaced. The free-spirited, liberated lifestyle was the total opposite of what Ed had just experienced for the last five years. Ed did his best to adapt, but he didn't have much of a social life. His main goal was to become a police officer. At the mental hospital, he'd enjoyed having even just a little power over the other patients. So he chased that feeling. He started going to local police hangouts to chat them up and try and get into their good graces.

Ed felt like he had a shot at becoming an officer. because his juvenile records were sealed. However, things didn't go his way. He was denied because he exceeded the height and weight limits. Ed was massive. He stood at 6'9, weighing nearly 300 pounds. And his appearance didn't just cost him jobs. It made dating even more difficult.

Sometimes women got startled or even screamed when they saw him, simply because of his size. It made Ed feel like he wasn't even human. If Ed has spent years being rejected and humiliated and mocked by his mother, who repeatedly told him that no woman would ever want him, and if he's experienced similar ridicule from his sisters, then this can feel like cumulative rejection. And that's especially concerning when you pair it with his interests in power and his history of violence. That's a risky combination because healthy relationships require vulnerability, consent, and an understanding of autonomy. Power, on the other hand, something that he's interested in, can allow someone to believe that they can bypass all of those things, leaving no room for perceived rejection or humiliation.

And as always, my caveats, this doesn't mean that rejection causes violence. Millions of people experience romantic rejection and never become violent. But when rejection is layered on top of years of humiliation, social isolation, resent. and a history of violent behavior and antisocial behavior, it can become another risk factor that compounds what's already there. How do you think he would have reacted to the fact that the thing preventing him from getting his dream job, his size, was the same thing affecting his dating life? I think this could have been especially difficult for Ed because it may have felt like

his mother was right. I mean, remember, his mother repeatedly taunted him and told him that women would never want him. Then, if he's struggling in his dating life and simultaneously being told that his size is preventing him from pursuing his dream career, that can be triggering a core belief in him. That can create a tremendous amount of resentment because now he's not only angry at his mother for saying those things in the first place, he's potentially angry that his own experiences seem to be confirming them. And if he believes all of this is tied to something that he can't control, which is your size, you have absolutely no control over that, that can also create a sense of powerlessness

because it's an obstacle that feels out of his control. So imagine what that can create. Well, instead of focusing his energy on dating, Ed looked for another job. He eventually got hired as a construction worker with the division of highways, which he seemed to like. He was still new to the area and it helped him become familiar with the roadways. Plus, he was making his own money. for the first time. He saved up enough to rent his own apartment and buy a yellow 1969 Ford

Galaxy, which he used to get away from Clarenell as much as possible. Pretty soon, Ed realized that having a car could be his ticket to meeting more women, too. This was not only the era of hitchhiking, but there were several colleges in the area, so a lot of pretty young women were out on the roads looking for a ride. Ed started picking up female hitchhikers. He'd drive them as far as the Oregon, border hundreds of miles away. He didn't do anything other than try and strike up conversation and maybe flirt a little, but none of the girls seemed interested. But they did give him insight into how women perceived him. For example, he learned that the short cop-like hairstyle he had was considered uncool and made girls feel suspicious of him. So he grew it out, along with a mustache to give himself

more of a hippie look. And he added a pair of round glasses to seem a little studious. Ed's makeover seemed to work. By his own estimate, around a thousand hitchhikers took rides from him. He studied each encounter, but he wasn't just hoping to improve his dating skills. After he dropped women off, Ed fantasized about what he wished he'd done to them. He'd been experiencing the urge to sexually assault someone, and it was becoming harder to fight, but given his size and his bold car, Ed knew he'd be easy to identify. He had to find a way to leave behind no witnesses. He had to find a way to leave behind no witnesses, and in his mind, the only way to do that was to kill his victims. Ed's stay at the mental institution did nothing to quell his murderous rage. Over time, he prepared for his first

attack. He packed plastic bags, knives, and handcuffs in his trunk. Then he started driving women off course to remote areas to see if they'd notice. Eventually, Ed realized how unfamiliar many people were with the area. And once he felt ready, he bought a gun and stashed it in his car. Ed essentially conducted a long-term experiment with women. And according to what you described, he's given rides to around 1,000 women. That's quite a bit of social data collected on how women responded to him, what made them comfortable, what made them uncomfortable, how to present himself, how to lower suspicion. And we've actually seen. seen this pattern before. At a Tascadero State Hospital, he observed his surroundings closely.

He appeared to learn how professionals thought, what they looked for, and what to say and do to get discharged. Here we see much of the same. He's learning how women think and what behaviors make him seem safe and trustworthy. Ed is intelligent. He's organized, calculated, and skilled at adapting him to whatever environment. He studies people, test situations, gathers information, and and adjusts his behavior until he's ready. Think of all the women that he offered rides to, that he did not kill, but probably wanted to. That suggests a degree of control.

Only you can't accurately detect his intentions, which is exactly what he wants. You would just never know. What does it say about Ed that he could figure out how to blend in and seem non-threatening? Does this support his former doctor's belief that he was highly intelligent? And do you think that tricking his doctors helped him know he could get away with all this?

We talked about how children who grow up in unpredictable environments often become very good at adapting and reading the room because it can help them anticipate conflict and navigate difficult relationships. Only with Ed, this is no longer serving a protective function for him. He's using those skills for personal gain and deception and ultimately to harm others, which is much more consistent with psychopathic traits. and predatory behavior. Obviously, as a reminder, psychopathy is not a diagnosis. It's a personality construct comprised of interpersonal, effective, and behavioral traits. And the traits that best describe this behavior that allow Ed to blend in and seem so non-threatening are instrumental

use of others, manipulation, superficial charm, callousness or lack of empathy, predatory orientation, and deception. And all of these things may can be. him such a good chameleon. Well, in the spring of 1972, Ed was ready to strike. Around 4 p.m. on May 7th, the 23-year-old cruised around Berkeley looking for his prey. Soon, he came across two Fresno State College roommates, Marianne Pesci and Anita Lucchessa. They were both 18 and had been visiting friends at UC Berkeley. Now they wanted to hitch a ride to Stanford about 40 miles away.

Anita was 5'1 with sun-bleached hair and gold-rimmed glasses. Marianne was the same height with dark hair and blue eyes. She'd hitchhiked across Europe before, so she was much more experienced than Anita. And when Ed pulled up, she felt hesitant. Something seemed off about him. But eventually, the two got in his car, Anita in the front seat, Marianne in the back. It would be at least an hour-long drive to their destination, so Ed had plenty of opportunities to travel through remote stretching.

of terrain. He even asked them questions about the area to see how familiar they were with their surroundings. But as two teenagers knew to town without cars of their own, they were out of their depths. About 30 minutes into their drive, he brought them out to a secluded road near the city of Hayward. Then Ed turned on them. He flashed a 9mm browning automatic pistol and handcuffed Marianne to a seatbelt. He then tied up Anita and told her to get in the trunk. She begged him not to hurt them, and Ed slammed the trunk door shut. Returning to Marianne, he put a plastic bag over her head and tried to asphyxiate her with a tarycloth belt. Despite being bound and outweighed by nearly 200 pounds, Marianne fought viciously. She chewed through the bag and

maneuvered the belt from her neck to her mouth, cutting it with her teeth. In a fury, Ed stabbed her repeatedly. Shocked at how she could survive so many stab wounds, he finally slit her throat. Ed was shocked at what he'd just done. He looked at his hands and they were completely covered in blood. Anita heard everything from inside the trunk, and once it was over, Ed opened up the trunk and attacked her too. Just like Marianne, she put up a vicious fight, but in the end, Ed took Anita's life as well. Afterward, he put Marianne's body in the trunk alongside Anita's. He started driving home when suddenly he noticed police lights flashing behind him. He pulled over. The officer approached. He told Ed his tail light was out. Anita must have kicked it.

As the officer got closer, Ed was sure he'd noticed blood splatter in the back seat or on his hands. He prepared to grab his knife and stab the officer next. But the officer didn't notice anything amiss. he sent Ed on his way with two bodies in his trunk. I touched on this concept briefly, but it's a great place to elaborate. For years, Ed had been fantasizing, planning, and then behaviorally rehearsing these crimes. But fantasy and reality are two very different experiences. In fantasy, it's always going to go exactly how he wants it to. Otherwise, it's not a fantasy.

rarely do they factor in realistic scenarios like attempted escape, for example. The fact that he seemed shocked by the amount of blood and by how much resistance he got suggests just that. It could also be psychologically revealing that he targeted two victims rather than one. We know he spent years learning how to lower suspicion and working on ways to perfect that. So he's become increasingly confident in his ability to control situations. It's possible he simply felt confident and capable of managing the two of them, especially when you consider the messages that he's internalized with regard to his size and the strength that comes with that.

At the same time, it could have simply been a matter of opportunity. He'd been building up to this moment. He had his gun ready, and he was not willing to wait anymore. So when he encountered Marianne and Anita, he decided to act on it. But what's especially concerning, though, is what happens after. afterward. Despite being seemingly shocked, he very quickly shifts into problem-solving mode. He continues driving. He starts thinking about how not to get caught. And he even prepares to kill a police officer, if necessary, which is a very similar behavioral sequence after he killed his

grandmother. He shot her. He heard his grandfather coming home, made a decision to kill him, killed him, then continued in problem-solving mode by calling his mother and then following her directions. So to me, this moment after killing Mary Ann and Anita is one of the more psychologically revealing moments because it shows how rapidly Ed can compartmentalize and then prioritize self-preservation, especially because of what comes next, which is perhaps the more gratifying part of this process for him. Ed had committed the unspeakable, and behind closed doors, his behavior was about to become even more disturbing. In May of 1972, 23-year-old Ed Kemper murdered two college women, Marianne Peshi, and Anita Lucchessa. The pair had been hitchhiking when Ed picked them up. Afterward, he put both

bodies in the trunk of his car and drove home, and Ed wasn't done with them. At his apartment, he dismembered and decapitated both the victims, mirroring his childhood when he used to remove the heads from his sister's dolls. Then he sexually assaulted both bodies. He took Polaroid photos while he did it, which he then stored in plastic bags in his closet. Ed kept his victim's remains in his home overnight, but he knew the neighbors would eventually smell the decomposition. So the next morning he placed them back into his car and drove to Loma Prieta, the highest peak in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There, he scattered the women's remains in the forest, keeping mental numbers. of where he left them.

That way, he could come back and relive everything he'd done. However, Ed hadn't disposed of all the remains. He kept both victims' heads in his apartment as a souvenir. Necrophilia is a profound sexual attraction to or desired to engage in sexual acts with a corpse. It exists on a spectrum, ranging from mild to severe, and Ed falls on the severe end of that spectrum. individuals who engage in these acts are often seeking a partner who is unresisting, incapable of rejecting them, and entirely under their control. Now, I want to be very careful here because none of what I'm about to discuss causes necrophilia

or in any way excuses any of what Ed has done. Millions of people experience difficult childhoods, disrupted attachments, family conflict, rejection, or even institutionalization, and never develop these behaviors. Human behavior is far too complex to draw a straight line from one life experience to one particular outcome. But what these experiences can do is provide context. Through Ed's life, we've repeatedly seen themes of him feeling rejected, humiliated, and powerless, with disrupted attachments and difficulty forming relationships. We've talked about his mother and his sisters and the taunting in the home,

his relationship with his grandmother being similar to his mother, and the fact that he spent many of his formative adolescent years at a Tascadero State Hospital during a time when many teenagers are developing age-appropriate social and romantic experiences. And now he's continuing to experience rejection from peers, and he has emerging psychopathy traits. Again, none of these experiences explain or excuse his behavior, but when we step back and we look at the broader picture, we can begin to see why themes like control, fantasy fulfillment, and possession repeatedly emerge throughout his crimes.

A corpse cannot reject him, humiliate him, criticize him, or leave him. It offers a level of control that simply doesn't exist in any healthy human relationship. Okay, I have to ask, why do you think Ed kept his victim's heads? And why do you think he took photos as he violated their corpses? What can we glean about the way he seemed to be documenting things and keeping souvenirs? This is likely trophy collection. Trophy collection is primarily about reliving the fantasy, allowing them to mentally replay every aspect of it

as many times as they want for their own gratification. It can be about possessing the victims, allowing them to extend their control and dominance over them, or it can be about a validation of power similar to a hunter with taxidermy, or it can be a way of building a ritual. And if you think about Ed's history of rejection, then this is likely about possession and his distorted way of maintaining a connection to his victims,

but on his terms. As Ed enjoyed the high of his gruesome acts, Marianne and Anita's families did everything imaginable to find them. They filed police reports, put up flyers, and even hired private detectives. But at the time, California was rampant with hitchhikers or other young travelers who police considered runaways. No one except Ed had any idea

what a horrific end Mary Ann and Anita had faced, but that was about to change. Months passed, and Marianne and Anita's heads had decomposed. All that was left was their skulls. Eventually, he decided to get rid of them in the mountains, and in August of 1972, some hitchhikers found Mary Ann's. Police used dental records to identify her, and in August of 1972, some hikers found Mary Ann's. Police used dental records to identify her, and now authorities and the victim's families realized the nightmarish reality. It was clear that Marianne's head had been removed by another person, and people believed the same had happened to Anita.

However, there was no evidence to lead police to a suspect. Meanwhile, Ed wasn't worried about getting caught. Even if the authorities did have evidence, forensic DNA testing wasn't around at the time, so he knew he hadn't left any valuable clues behind. And one month after Marian's skull was found, Ed felt the urge to kill again. On September 14, 1972, he went hunting for his next victim. He spotted 15-year-old Iko Koo at a bus stop in Berkeley. Iko had missed her bus and she was running late to a dance class,

so she held out a sign to try and hitchhike a ride. Ed spotted her and pulled up in his yellow. Ford. He offered to drive Iko wherever she wanted to go, and she accepted. Despite her young age, Iko was already establishing herself as a ballerina and traditional Korean dancer. That evening, she left home excited that she'd been selected to perform at a dance festival. So as Ed drove, Iko's thoughts were preoccupied with her future. It wasn't until Ed reached the mountains above Santa Cruz that Iko realized they were way off course. But it was too too. late. Ed pulled out his gun, put tape over her mouth, and ordered her into the back seat.

Terrified, Iko did as she was told. Too large to jump into the backseat himself, Ed got out of the car and accidentally locked himself out. We'll never know why, but Iko let him back into the car. When he got in the back seat, he suffocated her until she passed out. While she was unconscious, he sexually assaulted her. Then, when she began to come to, he strangled her to death. He put her body in the trunk, then drove home. But not before making a couple of stops. First, he stopped at a bar for a few beers.

While he drank, Ed thought about his mother. He wondered if she'd be able to sense he was behaving differently after what he'd done. So he got back into his car and drove to her house. They chatted for about 30 minutes, but she didn't seem suspicious. at all. So Ed finally headed home. Ed has repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of observing others, gathering information, and adapting accordingly. He's consistently trying to test if he can fit in, whether that is adjusting his appearance or his post-offence behavior. And this has helped him blend in. The only person who has ever known how truly dangerous he is or has warned others about

what he's capable of is his mother. She warned his father that he would kill his grandparents. So the fact that he decided to test this out with her is rather telling, because if she, of all people, can't tell what he has just done, then I think to him, his presentation is a success. It passed the test. Whatever behavior or demeanor he's used to deceive her is working. Ed is learning how to hide in plain sight. What do you make of the fact that Ed made two stops, first at the bar and then at his mom's house, right after killing Ico and while her body was still in the trunk of his car? Do you think he just enjoyed the feeling of being around people while keeping this secret? Yeah, it's possible. He was gaining something from this for sure. Some organized serial offenders get psychological gratification from successfully deceiving others and avoiding suspicion. And here he is, sitting among them, half.

drinks while Iko's body is in his trunk and everyone around him is none the wiser. That can give him a feeling of mastery because he knows something that no one else does, and more importantly, he's successfully concealed it. And I think that's also why he wanted to expand on this feeling by testing this with his mother next. I also think this speaks to his compartmentalization, that he can so easily go from murdering a young woman like that in such a horrific way after assaulting her, to engaging in order. ordinary social interactions as though nothing happened. And every successful experience like this is going to reinforce his confidence even more.

It's possible Ed enjoyed being able to blend back into society after committing a gruesome murder. And after leaving his mom's house, he still wasn't done. The next morning, he spent about four hours dismembering Iko's body and removing her head. The entire process excited him sexually. and he assaulted his victim's remains numerous times. When he was done, Ed did the same thing as before. He kept Ico's head as well as her hands and disposed of the rest in the mountains. While in the forest, Ed also looked through Iko's belongings.

He found her address and decided to drive by. That's when he realized she came from a humble home. Ed felt extremely disappointed in himself. He felt that women from wealthier backgrounds deserved what he did to them, but not girls like Ico. And while Ico wasn't rich, she was loved. Her mother had called the police just hours after she should have returned home, but they told her Ico had probably run away and refused to help her.

All the while, Ed was driving around town with the young girl's head in the trunk of his car, including on his way to a psychiatric evaluation. After seeing Iko's house, Ed drove 160 miles to Fresno to meet with quarter of appointed psychiatrists. His juvenile records had been temporarily sealed when he was released, but he wanted them permanently sealed so he could try again to become a police officer. At the appointment, Ed said all the right things and passed the evaluation with flying colors. Doctors believed he posed no violent threat to anyone, and they recommended his records remain sealed. Just like that, the murder of Ed's grandparents continued to be sealed away from the

authorities. He felt completely invincible. To celebrate, he bought a new gun in January of 1973. That same day, he picked out his next victim, 19-year-old Cynthia Scholl, a Santa Cruz local and Cabrillo college student. Cynthia was looking for a ride to class, and Ed offered her one. But instead of taking her to the campus, Ed drove Cynthia to an isolated area somewhere between Corralitos and Freedom in Santa Cruz County. He pulled out his new 22-caliber pistol and forced her into the trunk. Then he shot her once in the head. Ed intended to act out his usual post-murder ritual, but instead of bringing Cynthia's remains to his apartment, he drove to his mother's. While she wasn't around, he dismembered the remains and assaulted his latest victim's corpse. Later, Ed

disposed of Cynthia's remains across Big Sur. He had no idea that this time he was leaving behind crucial evidence. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time as Andrea joins Dr. Engels and me for the conclusion of our deep dive into the mind of Ed Kemper. Looking forward to it. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support.

If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow serial killers and murderous minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, join Crimehouse Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two, plus crimehouse bonus episodes every month. To join, go to CrimehousePlus.com. or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson,

and Forensic Psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team, Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie, Natalie Pritzowski, Alyssa Fox, Sarah Batchler, Sarah Tardiff, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. This was part one of the Ed Kemper deep dive from serial killers and murderous minds. Part two picks up with Kemper's final most personal kill, plus an extended conversation between me and Dr. Engels, breaking the whole case down.

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