Beyond All Repair - Endless Thread's "Madness", Part 4: Pursuit of Justice

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

In the early 1980s, victims of Dr. Ewen Cameron’s mind-altering experiments at the Allan Memorial Institute began a slow process of finding each other and building a case against the CIA for funding Cameron's work. The legacy of that case has played a key role in two separate lawsuits in progress today. These new lawsuits represent the interests of hundreds of families still seeking justice for the brutal “treatments” their loved ones were subjected to decades ago. "Madness: The Secret Mission for Mind Control and the People Who Paid the Price" -- an investigative series in 5 parts -- unravels the shocking history of CIA-funded mind-control experiments. This is Part 4. If you haven't heard Parts 1 through 3 yet, you can find them here, here and here.

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Do they deserve it? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Amory, back with the next installment of Madness, a series I made with my Endless Thread co-host Ben Brock Johnson back in 2020. The first three parts are already in the feed, and we'll have one more after that, all here just for a limited time. So give them a listen. And remember, you can find many, many more

episodes of Endless Thread over in that feed. But for now, here's the show. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Heads up, this is part four of Madness from Endless Thread. If you haven't heard parts one through three, you should definitely go listen to those first. Okay, here we go. Previously, on Endless Thread. Cameron didn't seem to have the slightest hesitation about destroying the lives of his subjects.

The CIA was trying to frame this as a LSD testing program and what it really was was a much more serious program to manipulate and control human behavior. And the LSD made her feel like her bones were melting, like she was a squirrel trapped in a cage, like she wanted to get out of her own skin and she couldn't get out of her own skin. As one of the CIA sources I interviewed said, we couldn't do this kind of experimentation on housewives in Northern Virginia.

I knew that my grandmother was going after the CIA. I didn't understand exactly what the CIA was, but I knew that they were big and they were government and they were bad and they were American. In Winnipeg, Val Orlico spends a lot of time tending her plants. It's one of the few hobbies she has left. She used to devour books and write long letters. Now she can't concentrate on a book for more than a single page, and writing a letter is

beyond her. This is from a 1984 episode of the CBC program, The Fifth Estate. Val Orlico, a former patient of Dr. Ewan Cameron's at the Allen Memorial Institute, is making the media rounds in the wake of a disturbing discovery. How did you feel when you learned that Dr. Cameron's experimentation was financed by the CIA? Well, I thought, oh, I can't even use the word that I thought, because I thought that

bastard. This is from an interview Val gave to ABC, and she was fired up. Damn it all. I could have maybe had a different kind of life. And that makes me angry and sad. And I don't know how to explain how I feel, really. I just, I just... Val Orlico went to the Allen in 1956 for postpartum depression. The treatment left her mentally shattered and her family in financial ruin.

Under the guise of being treated, she'd become the victim of experiments that were funded in part by the CIA. Electroshock's recordings played on loop for hours on end and injections of LSD. Things became very furry and very frightening. Nobody explained it to me. Nobody ever asked me if I was willing to do it or anything. He had this feeling that he... Valle decided to fight back, to sue the CIA

and hold the agency accountable for experiments it had funded at the Allen. But a Canadian housewife taking on the CIA was a David vs. Goliath matchup. And it started with an actual David, Val's husband, David Orlaco, who, despite being a member of Canada's parliament at the time, had a hard time even finding someone to take the case. But he did eventually find a lawyer, a pair of them actually, who were at least willing to try to take on the CIA. A renowned civil rights attorney in the U.S., the late Joseph Rao, and his up and coming professional partner, Jim Turner.

I'm an attorney. I practiced in Washington, D.C. for about 40 years. One of the cases that I handled was... Jim's in his mid-60s. He's polite, direct, a down-to-business kind of guy. But you get the sense that if you gave him a couple beers, he could talk for hours about government scandals, especially the government scandal he took on 40 years ago. I spent a decade working on the case, more or less, and you kind of push a button and

it comes out. Jim was only in his mid-20s when David Orlico came knocking. And yet, he was no stranger to CIA misconduct. He'd worked as a research assistant for the U.S. Senate's Church Committee, which investigated government abuses of power, including the Watergate scandal and, yes, MKUltra. Jim Orlico, Former U.S. Secretary of State And when the Orlicos came to us with this case, it seemed to both of us that it was a very important matter that deserved public scrutiny on a couple of grounds.

But the most significant being, no part of our government should be above the law, equally, that the folks who were so grievously injured should have some measure of recompense, even if it's decades after the injuries were done. Orlico versus United States was filed in 1980. It was a huge deal for Val the plaintiff. Her granddaughter, Sarian Johnson, says Val really struggled with the spotlight this case had suddenly put on her. Every time she had to give an interview, every moment of it was painful for her. She would be so nervous and worried and uncomfortable and my mom would have to go over to the house

and pack her suitcase for her and help her get on the plane. And she would try and back out every time. And it was, you know, very, very difficult for her to push herself through it. But she did it so that everybody would know what happened so that it could never happen again. Although the case had Val Orlico's name on it, it included a handful of former patients of Dr. Cameron's who came forward gradually and sometimes reluctantly, including Lew Weinstein, whose son Harvey says it took a year of trying to convince his father that what happened to him at the Allen wasn't his fault. I think I put it in the context of when Arong is committed that one has a right to justice

and that he basically was assaulted by these medical practitioners. And secondly, that there was a conspiracy among intelligence agencies to experiment on vulnerable people and that he was a vulnerable person and that he had a right to be heard and to have his dignity restored to him. Mental illness, especially in the days of Dr. Cameron, came with a lot of stigma. You didn't talk about it, let alone try to take the U.S. government to court. Val Orlico and Lou Weinstein were two of what would become nine plaintiffs in the case, suing for a million dollars each. All former patients of Cameron's who had received some combination of his de-patterning

and psychic driving techniques, psychedelics and sedatives, intense electroshocks, weeks or months of induced sleep, recordings played on loop. We don't know the total number of people who were treated at the Allen under Dr. Cameron's direction. We know it was in the hundreds. And who knows how many of those people never learned about Cameron's connection to the CIA, or couldn't remember what had happened to them, or felt too ashamed to come forward, or didn't live to see the day that justice would finally be pursued. But for the people pursuing that justice, there was a long road ahead.

I'm Ben Brack Johnson. I'm Amory Sievertson, and you're listening to Endless Thread, coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR. And we're bringing you a special series. Madness, the secret mission for mind control and the people who paid the price. If you're going to take on the CIA, you need a heavy hitter on your side. And Jim Turner had one.

His legal partner Joseph Rao had won prominent civil rights cases in the past. He defended Lillian Hellman and Arthur Miller before the anti-communist House Un-American Activities Committee. And he had had a hand in the passage of the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. But Jim says even for Joe, suing the CIA on behalf of a small group of Canadian citizens was a daunting proposition. You just can't live your life being afraid.

You got to do what's right and not be weak willed. And neither Joe or I were weak willed. It was going to take more than willpower. They needed to prove that the CIA was negligent in its funding of Ewan Cameron's work, that there was a lack of oversight of dangerous experiments conducted without the consent of patients or their families, and that the CIA had tried to conceal its involvement with Cameron in the first place. You're suing an entity that is well-schooled in misdirection and in concealment and that has at its kind of unilateral disposal a whole set of national security objections that it

can make to releasing information. The CIA had already destroyed evidence of MKUltra. But how would the intelligence agency avoid having to disclose what remained? By claiming that disclosing such evidence would put our national security at risk. They were also good at concealing information within the agency. There were only a handful of employees at the CIA who had even known about MKUltra at the time, and the ones who did were mostly prevented from testifying. And when we would depose individuals who had knowledge, who had worked for the

agency, they would interpose objections that were improper, instruct witnesses not to respond even though they did not represent that witness, and that really really drags things out. But Jim and his colleague had other arrows in the quiver, including the testimony of several prominent psychiatrists, all of whom agreed that Cameron's experimental procedures could not be considered, quote, proper treatment or even treatment at all. The bizarre combination of techniques that Cameron was employing in the Allen Memorial

Institute were present nowhere else in the psychiatric community. And to not regard that as experimentation is to not have any meaning for the word experimentation. If you're going to be getting something that is not standard care, you have a human right to know about it. And that was apparently of no concern, either to Cameron

or to the CIA who has funded him. The lack of patient consent in Cameron's experiments really was of no concern to the CIA. Not to the director of MKUltra, Sidney Gottlieb, or to his deputy, Robert Lashbrook. How does Jim Turner know? They told them themselves in official court depositions. Both Gottlieb and Lashbrook admitted in their depositions that they took zero steps to

ensure Cameron's experimentation was safe or that it was being conducted on consenting volunteers. When Lashbrook was asked, did you ever at any time hear a conversation at the CIA concerning the question of whether the persons who were experimented on must be told that they were being experimented on? He answered, Not that I recall. Or did you at any time make any suggestions on any projects on how to safeguard the experimentees?

It wasn't felt necessary really to go into a lot of detail as to exactly how they were handling the subjects. In general, patients would be of low interest. Lead plaintiff Val Orlico on ABC again. I realize the CIA is a very important organization and they have a very important job to do. But God, it surely doesn't have to be done on people who are totally incapable of knowing what's happening or having any defense against it. And I can't imagine the mentality of people who would do this.

I just can't. An unexpected challenge to the plaintiff's case was the position taken by their very own Canadian government. Now, you'd expect the Canadian government to be outraged over a foreign government funding experiments conducted on its citizens. But it turns out the Canadian government had given Cameron even more money than the U.S. had. And when the CIA became aware of this, Canadian officials realized they had a problem on their hands. So they put together a commission to look at whether their government had acted improperly

in funding Cameron's work. And they issued a report that could have been written by, and I expect was written by, the CIA's lawyers. That report concluded that the Canadian government was not legally liable for the outcome of Dr. Ewan Cameron's experiments. Its release in 1986 was a huge blow to Jim Turner and his plaintiffs, who are already six years into their suit at this point. And when I started negotiating with the U.S. attorneys, they said, we don't have to negotiate

with you. We're going to hang the Canadian government's involvement in this around your neck. You're never going to get a dime out of the CIA because the Canadians were doing it and they won't stand up for their own citizens now. Another key part of the case for Jim Turner was disproving the CIA's position that Cameron had come to them unsolicited. Jim Turner's team was able to get a deposition from a CIA official who said Cameron was recruited to do mind control experiments. Which leads us to another challenge facing the prosecution, proving that Cameron's so-called treatment regimen was a mind control experiments. Which leads us to another challenge facing the prosecution, proving that Cameron's so-called

treatment regimen was a mind control experiment. The proof was in a paper that Cameron had written in 1953, four years before the CIA started funding him. A paper buried in the boxes of Cameron's papers archived at the American Psychiatric Association's headquarters in Washington, D.C. and unearthed by the son of one of the plaintiffs in the case, Harvey Weinstein. And in this paper he talks about extraordinary political conversions that occurred in the Iron Curtain countries. But he says, quote, we have explored this procedure in one case using sleeplessness, disinhibiting agents, and hypnosis. And my eureka moment was, here it is.

He actually says that he was trying to do mind control experimentation and to use whatever he had at his disposal to do this. So four years later, when the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology approached Cameron and said, how would you like more money at your disposal to do this work? Cameron obliged. He applied for a grant from this CIA puppet organization and he got it. He knew. He knew who he was working for.

And excuse me, but I just, you know, I just can't, sometimes I can't believe it. And yet I know it's true. If you have the opportunity to say something... Val Orlico was sure that Dr. Cameron knew what he was doing and who was paying for it. We put that to Jim Turner. There is no way to definitively prove one way or the other whether or not Cameron knew that, but is there? So what? So what? The CIA looked for a researcher who was doing research and experimentation

that advanced brainwashing interests. It thought Cameron was doing that. He was doing it. He took money from them, they're liable for it. I was never very concerned about Cameron's own personal knowledge, about Cameron's own personal motive. You see, I knew they were giving him money and they knew they were getting results from him. And he said he wouldn't have been able to do the work without him in his last correspondence

with him. Jim is referring here to a letter that Cameron sent to the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology calling their support invaluable. Invaluable, perhaps, because it made it possible for Cameron to experiment on more of his patients, causing more harm to everyone involved. These criminal misconduct kinds of crimes that happened under the MKUltra program did not just have individual victims. There are entire intergenerational damages that were done to whole families and to whole sets of people who had done nothing

wrong, had done nothing to deserve this kind of governmental interference in their lives. In January of 1988, nearly a decade after the case had been brought, Jim Turner got the call that a settlement had been reached in Orlico versus United States. The U.S. government would pay $750,000 to be divided among the now eight plaintiffs. One was disqualified on a technicality. The Canadian government offered up an additional $20,000 totaling about $100,000 per victim, a far cry from the million dollars each plaintiff was seeking. It's a tough calculus, you know, when you're trying to help people who are, some of them just above indigency, you know, living hand to mouth, but you're also trying to get a

meaningful settlement that can't just be brushed off as, oh, we don't admit any liability. Well, you don't admit any liability. Well, you don't give somebody $750,000 if you haven't done something wrong. I mean, true. And yet, that being said, they didn't admit liability. Of course. And there was no apology.

Yeah, that's part of the trade-offs. We talked about it in the final analysis. We thought it was more important to get compensation to people while they were still alive and could have some beneficial impact from the money than to demand that apology. People could come to different conclusion on that. People like the lead plaintiff, Val Orlaco, Val's granddaughter, Sarah Ann Johnson, again. She wanted her day in court.

She wanted a public apology. That was the most important thing to her, more than the money. Val died two years later, in 1990. To this day, neither the U.S. nor the Canadian government have ever officially apologized for funding experiments that were conducted without consent and which amounted to medical malpractice and torture. But now a group of more than 300 people and counting are hoping to change that. More in a minute. With the FIZ loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan,

you're not with FIZ. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at FIZ.ca. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. We're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets. And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes.

Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Hi! Come on in. It's a gray October day in Montreal, and Ben and I have just arrived at the apartment of Marlene Levinson. Marlene is a member of SAGA, Survivors Allied Against Government Abuse. Her aunt was experimented on at the Allen Memorial in the late 1940s.

A week before our meeting, Marlene was firing up a crowd at a rally in Ottawa. Why am I here? Because I want justice. A week before our meeting, Marlene was firing up a crowd at a rally in Ottawa. But today she's hosting a small group of other SAGA members who are eager to share their own stories with us. The first to arrive is one of the group's organizers, Julie Tanny. She's the lead plaintiff in a new class action lawsuit that SAGA is bringing against the U.S. government, the Canadian government, the Allen Memorial Institute, and McGill University. But her story starts when she was very young. For Julie and her siblings, weekends were dad time. He was very involved. And when he came home, it was just empty.

Julie's father, Charles Taney, was sent to the Allen in 1957, not for anxiety or depression or some other form of mental illness, but for nerve pain, specifically something called trigeminal neuralgia. Which is a pain in the temple that radiates into the jaw. And his family doctor suggested he see a psychiatrist assuming it was psychosomatic. And the psychiatrist we didn't know was actually working at the Allen with Cameron. And he put my father into that program. That program was Dr. Cameron's deep patterning and psychic driving regimen. And my father was put into psychic driving for 30 days,

as well as insulin comas and all the narcotics and drugs that they gave them. And after 30 days, they expressed concern that my father still had ties to his former life because he was asking to see his wife. Which to Cameron and his team meant the so-called treatment wasn't working. They decided to keep trying. Then after 27 days my father was reduced to a five-year-old wearing diapers and Dr. Cameron noted that it looked like this is as far as we could take him.

And then he was released. Julie herself was just five years old at the time. She didn't know where her father had gone or why, but when he returned two months later, he didn't seem to remember much of anything about his life before the Allen. Mike Hickman Charles had been a loving, attentive parent. Now he was, at best, detached. And at worst? Dr. Anne McLean My father came home with a very short fuse and physically violent. All I know is when I read my father's interview when he got to the island, because they used part of the interview to use the tapes that

they run 24-7 under your pillow, and one of the things he said in his interview was that his youngest daughter was the apple of his eye. Yet when my father came home and I got a little bit older, he started beating me, and not my other two siblings. This shift in Julie's dad is sadly familiar to many members of SAGA. As one of the group's organizers, Julie has helped a lot of other family members like herself try to understand the information

in their loved one ones medical records. And she's picked up on some patterns. In a lot of the records I've read the same thing over and over again that Dr. Cameron found the patient to be aggressive. And you know you'd think the man was smart enough to figure out he was making them aggressive. There's such crazy stories of things that happen to families where a father tried to kill them or he had a noose hanging waiting in the basement. Just like crazy, violent, aggressive behavior. Another pattern Julie's noticed is one of silence.

Family members who haven't been able to talk about what happened to their mothers and fathers and siblings with each other or anyone else. Some of it has to do with the stigma around mental illness and the shame that can be felt by everyone it touches. A stigma that still exists today, of course, but was even more present in the 50s and 60s. We heard this over and over again talking to people. You weren't allowed to talk about mental illness.

It was like a cancer in the family and no one wanted to know about it. We're just dealing about mental illness. It was like a cancer in the family and no one wanted to know about it. We're just dealing with mental illness and the stigma of mental illness. See back then you're crazy. Imagine what it was like thinking you had a crazy parent and everybody's going to look at you. This pain for many people has been the greatest silencer of all. There are people who very much want justice, but in some ways because of the government's stance on all this, which is ignore it all, they just can't come forward. And the pain of reliving it all, we have many people in our group who just cannot talk about it.

They can't. For Julie, the Canadian government's silence has been deafening. They have apologized to everybody. They've apologized to the Indigenous. They apologized to the Inuits. They have apologized to the Japanese. They've apologized to everybody. I mean, our country has a horrendous history. But unfortunately, our case, for reasons that we don't understand, they just can't acknowledge. So Julie and the other 300 plus members of SAGO want their apology from the Canadian government and from everyone who played a role in aiding and allowing

Dr. Ewan Cameron's brainwashing experiments to take place without the consent of his patients. They filed their class action lawsuit in January of 2019. Where does it stand today? It doesn't. A class action suit needs to be authorized by a judge before it can move forward. And more than a year later, that hasn't happened yet. In part because it took SAGA's attorneys months just to serve the CIA. And now the

U.S. government is trying to have the whole case dismissed, claiming immunity against a suit filed in an ally's jurisdiction. Obviously, we don't agree. This is Jeff Orenstein of the Consumer Law Group. He's representing the SAGA plaintiffs in their class action suit, and he says that despite the challenges, the decision to include the US government in their litigation was a no-brainer. The way I always have been taught to do things is you go after everyone who you think is responsible. And so it was really not a question for me of leaving out a party that I think was involved

in this. What was a question is what justice actually looks like for families that suffered government sponsored harm. Jeff's colleague on the case, Andrea Grass, says it includes something that the plaintiffs in Orlico versus United States never got, an apology. So what we're talking about with an apology is accountability. And no one seems to want to take accountability for this. Andrea and Jeff are also seeking a perhaps less poetic,

but more practical form of justice for their clients, compensation. They're hoping they can do a lot better than the $100,000 Jim Turner got for his clients in the 80s, but they're bracing themselves for a similarly long fight. But just a couple miles away from where Jeff and Andrea are working on their class action suit, not far from the Allen Memorial itself, another Montreal lawyer is taking a different approach.

Now, let's see, where do you want to interview me? Allen Stein greets us at reception, and he seems excited to have us and to tell his colleagues. — They come all the way from Boston to interview me. — That's right. — Alan's office is a trove of information. Boxes of case files and court documents stacked up against the walls, and a desk piled high with papers. — This looks exactly like I would imagine a lawyer's desk to look. — Yep, I was just going to say the same. papers. Within his stack of papers are documents for a suit representing about 60 families whose loved ones were experimented on by Dr. Cameron. This is hundreds of pages.

Hundreds of pages. Alan's suit is a direct action case, which unlike the class action, does not require the authorization of a judge before it can move ahead. He's suing the Canadian government, the Allen Memorial and McGill University, but not the US government. I decided not to sue the CIA. Why?

Because I felt it would delay the action indefinitely. Most of my clients want to see, at least have a hearing within the next few years. A class action like this where you sue the CIA, you could be tied up in court for 10, 15 years. Alan doesn't expect his suit to take that long, but it's still a slow process. And given the global pandemic, things are currently at a standstill. Whenever they get going again, Alan's asking for $850,000 in damages per family.

Although really, he's hoping to settle. Because it's a very time consuming thing. It's very difficult for these people to have to resume what they went through, how they suffered without a mother, father, our sister, our brother. Allen also hopes a settlement would come with an apology, but it's not the priority. Whichever lawsuit we're talking about here, direct action or class action, it's difficult for victims to imagine what healing really looks like.

Here's Julie Tanny again. What is gonna make it better? Nothing. Nothing will ever make it better. But for me and a lot of other people who suffered real financial hardships as a result of it, the compensation will definitely help. Is an apology going to be enough?

No, these aren't the guys who did it. But these are the men who are still working very hard to cover it up. And you have to wonder why. This isn't even in our history books. It's crazy. We've reached out to the Canadian government, the CIA, and the Allen Memorial Institute via McGill University and the Royal Victoria Hospital. The Canadian government never responded. The CIA said they wouldn't make someone available to talk to us, and the Allen Memorial Institute

sent a response that reflects just how confusing the relationship between the Allen, McGill, and the Royal Victoria Hospital is. The Allen Memorial Institute is the psychiatric wing of the Royal Victoria Hospital, and the Royal Victoria Hospital is one of McGill's teaching hospitals. And these degrees of separation have probably made it easier for all of them to pass the buck on what happened at the Allen under Cameron's leadership. Their statement to us reads, The McGill University Health Center acknowledges that Dr. Donald Ewan Cameron carried out experiments at the Allen Memorial Institute during the 50s and 60s.

The research attributed to him continues to be controversial and its consequences unfortunate. controversial and its consequences unfortunate. The courts have already established that the Royal Victoria Hospital was not considered by law the employer of Dr. Cameron. At the time, he exercised his profession in an autonomous and independent manner. I guess they just want us all to die off and then the next generation is not going to bother fighting for justice. So maybe it'll just go away. But I don't know. About a year after winning a settlement for their clients in Orlico versus United States, Jim Turner and Joseph Rao published a paper titled Anatomy of a Public Interest Case Against the CIA. In it, they detailed the government's attempt to, quote, ignore the plight of its victims

and insisted that the importance of curbing that kind of arrogance could not be overstated. The takeaway from that case, for Val Orlico, the Canadian grandmother who dared to take on the CIA, and for anyone who would hopefully follow in her footsteps, is that there is power in the very pursuit of justice, in the pursuit of not being ignored, no matter how loudly and how long you have to holler for it. I think it's going to be a hard road to hope. That being said, I applaud any attorneys and any families who are still seeking justice for what happened at the Allen. Any words of advice for those attorneys?

Don't give up. Do you think your grandmother would be proud to know that people haven't given up on trying to do that and hold the CIA accountable? Absolutely. yes. Everybody deserves their day in court. However long it takes the members of SAGA to get their day in court, there is someone who will never be able to answer to them. Someone who will never be held accountable for the experiments at the Allen and who will never apologize to these former patients and family members. Dr. Ewan Cameron. Because shortly after he left the Allen Memorial Institute in 1964, Dr. Cameron

suddenly died. We all very much wished that my father was alive, because he would have had to deal with that issue, and would have dealt with it quite effectively. Next time, in the fifth and final part of Madness, the collapse of Dr. Ewan Cameron. And they found his work next to worthless. And the chilling legacy he left behind.

You can't separate Guantanamo. This is the legacy. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR station, in partnership with Reddit. Josh Swartz is our producer. Iris Adler is our executive producer. Mix and Sound Design by Paul Vyckus. Michael Pope is our advisor at Reddit. Editing help from our managing producer Kat Brewer, extra production assistants from James Lindbergh, our interns are Frank Hernandez and Kaia Williams, shouts to former interns Magdiela Mata and Noah

Boston for their help on this series. On Reddit we are endless underscore thread. If you want to contribute art for an upcoming episode or give us a story tip so we can tell it like we did today, hit us up there. You can also go to our official subreddit endless thread dot reddit dot com or you can email us at endless thread at wb ur dot org. My co host and producers, Anne Marie Sievertson, my co host and the senior producer is Ben Brock Johnson. I'll let myself out.