Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - “I Felt Used by Your ED” | Unpacking My Past Orthorexia (and How to Support a Loved One) with my Sister, Dr. Skye Fitzpatrick

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

In todays episode of Bite Back with Abbey Sharp, I share my eating disorder (orthorexia) origin story, and I speak with my own sister (and clinical psychologist), Dr. Skye Fitzpatrick about how mental illnesses like eating disorders affect and are affected by family members and those in your immediate circle. Skye and I talk about how my eating disorder affected her as a young teen, and how families can often do more harm than good by over-accommodating the individual struggling with mental illness. This can often keep the person who is suffering from mental illness in a place where they don’t have to recover. I leave listeners with a list of dos and dont’s for talking to a loved one about your concerns around their disordered eating, and I also share a script on how you can broach the topic with your loved one.Check in with today’s amazing guest:Dr. Skye Fitzpatrick (my amazing sister!) is an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at York University.. She’s also director of the TULiP lab which stands for Treating and Understanding Life-threatening Behaviours and Post-traumatic stress.The TULiP lab is currently recruiting for their most recent study looking for people who struggle with intense emotions and self-injury/suicidal thoughts and behaviours and their romantic partners who 18 years old. You can learn more about it here:https://www.tuliplab.ca/feeling-connected.htmlYou can also follow them at @tuliplabyork Trigger Warning: In this episode we do discuss mental health disorders, disordered eating and eating disorders in detail.If you have heard yourself in our discussion today, and are looking for support, contact the free NEDIC helpline at 1-866-NEDIC-20 or go to  eatingdisorderhope.com. 🥤 Check out my 2-in-1 Plant Based Probiotic Protein Powder, neue theory at www.neuetheory.com or @neuetheoryDon’t forget to Please subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review! It really helps us out. ✉️ SUBSCRIBE TO MY NEWSLETTERS ⤵️Neue Theory newsletterAbbey's Kitchen newsletter 🥞 FREE HUNGER CRUSHING COMBO™ E-BOOK! 💪🏼 FREE PROTEIN 101 E-BOOK! Disclaimer: The content in this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is never a substitute for medical advice. If you’re struggling with with your mental or physical health, please work one on one with a health care provider. 📱 Follow me! Instagram: @abbeyskitchenTikTok: @abbeyskitchenYouTube: @AbbeysKitchen My blog, Abbey’s Kitchen www.abbeyskitchen.com My book, The Mindful Glow Cookbook affiliate link: https://amzn.to/3NoHtvf If you liked this podcast, please like, follow, and leave a review with your thoughts and let me know who you want me to discuss next!

I had to perform these like rituals and they had to be performed perfectly. I had to like watch this show and start the show at this time and have this exact snack and it had to be done in a perfect order at a specific time and if anything got thrown off I wouldn't sleep. You're listening to Bite Back with Abbey Sharp. On today's episode we're going to be getting super honest and real and talking about eating disorders. So trigger warning if that is not supportive to your journey. I was 17 years old when my eating disorder started. I had just graduated high school and I moved to Toronto with my parents and sister where I had no connections, no extended family, and no friends.

I was also struggling with IBS symptoms, probably exacerbated by all this sadness and stress. So at the advice of a family friend, I went to see a homeopathic naturopath. Her recommendation? Take a bunch of these awful tasting tinctures and cut out all sugars from my diet. Being a people-pleasing type A patient, I did what I was told. I learned that sugar can show up in basically anything from salad dressing to pasta sauce to brand cereal to bread. And considering I had cut out so many possible triggers, I absolutely did get some relief from my IBS. But what I also got was a flood of compliments on my willpower and unexpected weight loss. As a perfectionist, I basically interpreted that as a challenge. If cutting out sugar felt good, got me some external praise, and gave me a moral high,

well then cutting out other bad foods could only offer greater rewards. All the magazines at the checkout said that fat was also bad, which then quickly narrowed down my list of safe foods to basically just massive bowls of dry lettuce, sugar-free yogurt, and fat-free cheese. I know, fat-free cheese. Like, honestly a tragedy. But what started out as an innocent quest to feel better very quickly turned into an irrational fear of most foods, extreme weight loss, and a full-blown eating

disorder. I was unofficially diagnosed with orthorexia. And I say unofficially because it's still not well defined in the DSM, but it eventually became a dangerous cocktail of orthorexia, anorexia, binge eating, overexercising, perfectionism, and anxiety. For those of you who are new to me and my content, this is really why I do what I do. I have seen firsthand how diet culture and toxic wellness culture can impact our relationship with food and our body, and I have made it my mission to help prevent folks from following a similar path. And unfortunately, with the advent of social media, this path is only becoming more traveled, even though it ironically feels very lonely when you're there yourself. I know I felt incredibly

alone on my journey, especially because as we discussed in previous episodes, mental illness is so inherently isolating. That said, mental illness is also often affected by and does affect other people in our lives. In my case, one of those people was my then teenage sister, Skye. Skye, or Dr. Skye Fitzpatrick, as she's known as now, is an associate professor in the Department of Psychology at York University, who just became tenured at the ripe age of 34. She's also the director of the TULIP Lab, which stands for Treating and Understanding Life-Threatening Behaviors and Post-traumatic stress. She's very smart and very funny and probably should have her own podcast, but I'm just really excited to have her on Bite Back with us

today. All right, well, thank you, Skye, for coming in and like a week before you were giving me a new nephew or niece. Yes, you are welcome for that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I do deserve it. I am the big sister. No, but honestly, I'm super excited. Thank you. And I'm excited to have you here. Yeah. Me too. I also feel like, you know, when podcasting first started, we had this like total dream of having this sister sisterly podcast where we were gonna like it's like all about the f word and we're gonna talk about feminism food feelings and say fuck a lot

yeah yep original nobody wants this original and let's be real ours would have been better do you think you're the kristen bell of the two oh yeah i think so too yeah i mean i'm always the star so it's true no no uh but okay real talk real talk because that would have been a fun podcast to do but instead today we're talking about eating disorders just as fun just as entertaining but we going to try to keep it light because you are funny and we got to take advantage of that. Okay. So full disclosure, I was like semi nervous about doing this today because I mean, A, we're sisters and we talk all the time. So this is the easiest podcast to do for me. Two, I've talked about my anus order a million gazillion times not an issue but as a people pleaser and you know this about me as a people pleaser there's like literally nothing more

triggering and upsetting and stressful for me than thinking about the times in my life where like my issues have burdened other people like it's such a sore spot and we're going to talk a lot more about that in a second um but you know now we're like i have some things to say oh i'm just kidding i'm sure you do imagine like this is a reckoning for me right right of course all those years all those years later here it comes um but yeah 20 years later um you know like i don't know we were so young at the time when this happened you were like a fresh teenager and i don't know what you knew about eating disorders but i'm pretty sure the only thing i knew about eating disorders was that scene from the critically acclaimed movie drop dead gorgeous oh my god so good nice one becky she's anorexic right was that and like that poor

woman who was like an ex-pageant queen her hair was falling out she's anorexic right was that and like that poor woman who was like an ex-pageant queen her hair was falling out she's in a wheelchair she's describing this like obviously insane protocol that she put herself through like that was like the only experience I had with an eating disorder and uh you know even when I was going through my own I was like no fucking way I could identify with that um yeah that's fair right like it's it's, it's a whole other, a whole other ballgame, right? Yeah. Okay. So to kind of set the stage here, like, you know, I would say now you're a PhD mental health expert. You know, you don't work directly with dinosaurs. I want to make that clear. But you work with a lot of folks who have comorbidities with eating disorders. That's very common.

And I know, you know, your research is in looking at kind of like mental health as part of relationships and family systems rather than just in the individual. Can you kind of like tell us a little bit about what that means? Yeah. Okay. So I specialize really into problems, borderline personality disorder and post-traumatic stress. And I specialize in them as standalone problems, developing and testing treatments for those problems. But over time, I started to realize that these illnesses don't exist in a vacuum. So basically, they kind of live in our relationships, like they impact not just the

person with the illness, but also their loved ones, but also what loved ones do impacts the illness and the person and can do a lot of things that people like partners, family members can do a lot of things that seem like they're helpful, but actually are making it worse. They can also do things that promote recovery. And so because relationships are impacted and relationships are impacting the illness, I started to think a lot more about whether or not we could get more bang for our buck if we treated mental illness and treated relationships at the same time. So now I work a lot on developing

and testing treatments that are, especially in adults. So I do adult work. So like a person with borderline personality disorder and their significant other. And the targets are like the borderline personality disorder, their relationship functioning and the partner's mental health. I try and do like a three for one. I love that. Yeah. We love a deal. Yeah. It's a deal. It's a deal. It's a three for one deal. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's amazing. So, you know, thinking back 20 years or so ago and, you know, what I personally had gone through and I you know again like one of the things that that irks me that like kills me to think back is that you know I'm the big sister I'm supposed to be your role model and you know and so many of the things that we did growing up we kind of did together like I started singing you started singing I went horseback riding you

went horseback riding and that's just kind of what siblings do, right? And so to be in that position of kind of like role model and to be modeling something that was so problematic, like, you know, at best, I was kind of roping you into some of these problematic behaviors. And at worst, I was like teaching you some tips. Apparently, I would kind of gave you weight loss tips or or healthy eating tips or whatever it's like so I guess my question is like I've seen so many siblings like sisters whose sibling have then you know one has gotten an eating disorder the next has followed suit sure what was it in our dynamic that kind of helped prevent you from you know copying some of those behaviors that's so interesting a question also Also, I just

want to say like, that strikes me as so much pressure for an older sibling to be like, have to be modeling perfectly. And it's like, you know, that kind of pressure actually plays into a needy disorder. It kind of makes sense. Yeah. What, like how things unfolded in that way. I actually don't know the answer to that. I think that I was able to see like i knew something was wrong and i knew that like i knew i didn't take it fully seriously but i knew that you had an eating disorder it like very clearly um and i didn't i don't think i saw it as something to emulate honestly like i don't think i admired it right and i do think if you see the dark side of it right which was very visible right for you especially you're like oh that's not something

that i want and in fact why can't she just stop not do that right right you know so like i kind of actually may have in some ways been protective i don't know that it's protective against like the body image thoughts that we all have totally and i also don't know that it's protective against like the body image thoughts that we all have. Totally. And I also don't know that it would be fair to say that like, cause obviously we all have our own body and stuff. I don't think I've ever thought about like your ED as being responsible for my experience of that though. Right. Yeah. I kind of feel like we were just sort of swimming in the same water culturally. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And thank God we didn't have social media when we were in high school because it would have been so much worse. Oh, yeah. And who knows how you would have, you

know, how it would have fared for you. And also could have been a lot worse for me, too. So I'm obviously so grateful for that. Okay, so aside from kind of watching me engage in like these restrictive behaviors, the other thing that I regrettably like roped you and our family into was this kind of like cheat day thing that I did, which, you know, basically, to kind of give people a bit of context, I had been I was restricting all of these foods that I thought were bad for me, and we're going to do harm for me make me feel sick. And so I in my mind, I was like, well, I craving these things. So I'm just going to eat all the bad foods in one meal. So I only

feel sick once instead of feeling sick all the time. And that's kind of how I justified having this like massive binge, which was exactly what it was. It was like a binge, right? Like, yeah, like a lot of food. Servers were were were shocked i actually yeah they would make comments and i i remember i i cannot not remember that so again like you were young but was it did it ever occur to you that you may be kind of like like reinforcing or enabling some of the eating disorder behaviors or were you kind of more of the mindset like I just want to support her and not shut her out both of those types of thoughts are very sophisticated right I don't think that I was at that level in either way but I do think I like I kind of enjoyed our like Sunday night dinners like it was fun we got to go to new restaurants we were new to the city like

so there was that kind of part of it but also if I was like too full and like didn't want to go out yeah you'd like be like kind of mad at me so um and I would kind of do it anyway and I think in those contexts like I knew like this sounds actually honestly more accusatory and I really don't hold any ill will towards you at all about this but like truly but I think I actually felt more used than more like oh I'm playing a role than more like oh I'm playing a role I'm accommodating I'm reinforcing I definitely was using you yeah like I think it was just more like I felt in that moment like this isn't really about her wanting to have time with me no like you know like she wants me to be there to normalize what she wants to do

100 and so I think I was aware of that and possibly resentful at times. Yep. But I don't think I made I don't think I had a moment where I was like, but this is at least keeping her eating. Like, I don't think that I thought about that. Because I think I had a really like two dimensional understanding of things at that time where it's just like, I don't know why she doesn't eat more. Right. So weird that she does this. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. We were, we were a teenager and also we didn't have so much exposure to eating disorder content on social media because we didn't have social media. So like, like I said, like we just know what an eating disorder was from drop dead gorgeous. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad we didn't have social media.

Right. Right. No, I know. And you know, this is kind of where I'm I'm conflicted I think about this often because I think if you and you you mentioned like I'd just be mad at you if you said I don't want to go to dessert like and if you were to stand up and say okay Abby we're not doing like we're not doing this anymore like I'm not going to go out for dinner or dessert or whatever with you a I would have gotten so defensive so mad feel ashamed feel more embarrassed I would have pulled inward I would have been so defensive so mad feel ashamed feel more embarrassed I would have pulled inward I would have been like okay I'm totally on my own now and then I would have binged anyways but in my own on my own yeah and we know that like so many of those like eating disorder behaviors restriction purging binging like it's done it's way worse when you're

in isolation right like it just does because you can it's just easier to do those things. So, you know, I do, I do kind of struggle, struggle with that thinking like, how, you know, how could that have really done anything different? So totally. though like you know again from your clinical experience um like how important is kind of keeping your family close um and you know including them and things like this without you know creating so many accommodations that it makes things worse because and just to be clear like i don't think our family did that i feel like i was fully in the driver's seat of my own eating disorder and i had to come to my own realization where of readiness to to kind of change um but i'm sure there's a lot of

mental health disorders that you work with where these accommodations that family make can really do harm. Yes. I mean, it's like so complicated. So like even what you're describing, it's like, of course, we got pulled into it. Of course, I got pulled into it because you exist in a system. We are a system together. You do one thing that changes what everyone else does. So like you want to go out for this thing.

Then we all go or we say no it creates more tension like these things can't be separated yeah and even without even suggesting that you aren't in the driver's seat it's like even if the family does something different it's going to affect you like we can't in this way i kind of see things as kind of blameless it's like the whole system starts to wrap around a problem and you happen to be at the nexus of it. And that's most unfortunate for you more than anyone else. Right. So that happens with disorders all the time. So like I could give like a million different examples, but let's give an example of somebody who has post-traumatic stress disorder from a car accident. And so they get really, really, really, really nervous if they

drive. Right. And as a treatment provider, I know that the best thing to do to help them get better is for them to start driving. Because if they drive more, they start to learn, okay, like this is actually generally not dangerous. Most of the time, nothing bad happens. They have like corrective learning and that helps like the fear come down, for example. Makes sense. But people with PTSD inherently want to avoid the thing that triggers their trauma response. So they've been avoiding driving. Okay, all of it makes very, you know, clear sense. But their partner, their spouse, because they get really upset when they drive drives them everywhere. Right? And it's like, their partner is trying to help their partner wants to reduce distress, they don't want to have this big deal every time they go to the car and have a big fight.

Or imagine a kid where you're like, I don't want it to be a tantrum every time we're just trying to get out the door because they have to do a ritual before they put their shoes on. So then mom's like, okay, we'll just do the ritual. Like whatever, it's easier. But then it's like playing a role and keeping it going. And there is data that shows that that happens. We call that accommodation.

That's like the technical term for that so the partners are like accommodating the loved ones are accommodating and it's kind of like reinforcing driving the problem we're going out to dinner like you know whatever we're doing these things yeah and and i'm not saying anything outside of dinner you know like about like well what do the other days look like or whatever. And so this whole system is kind of going. And then it's like, well, there's so many different points that you can intervene. But it's like complicated, because it's true that if that spouse says, you have to drive today, and the person with PTSD is not on board, that's going to be a huge rupture. Maybe things are going to get worse.

Right. If they don't do that and they just keep doing it, the PTSD just stays alive. Right. Same thing with the ED stuff. Totally. So I feel like what's really important, this is why I try and treat everybody together, by the way, because it's like, okay, we all need to be on page. Right. So ideally in that example, I have the person with PTSD and the partner in front of me. I'm giving them this rationale. Everyone agrees. Everyone understands. So then when the partner says like, I know this is really hard, but you have to drive today. We agreed with Sky that we're going to do this. And then the partner is like, and I'm going to celebrate the hell out of you when you do it. Like be your best cheerleader, be really there for you. And the person with PTSD is like, yes, I get it. I will

do it. Like, that's how you start to change a system to like promote recovery. But like everyone has to be on board. So in your example, it's like really hard. You're an adult. So it's like really hard for like the family couldn't decide to treat your eating disorder without your consent. Right. Right. And I think that's where it gets really tricky. I get a lot of emails from desperate family members being like, help me with this person. And it's like, okay, but like they're a grownup. They have to also want help. Yeah. And they have to agree to why we're doing what we're doing. It's really hard to involuntarily treat anyone who isn't like a child. Right. Basically. Yeah. That's so interesting and really helpful. And, you know,

so, you know, I've talked a lot on my channel, not just about my eating disorder, but like my other mental health disorders. Right. So anxiety, insomnia is a really interesting one because you kind of, you know, you were talking about these kinds of like compulsions and things like that a moment ago and it's funny because my insomnia was very much like like a disorder transfer from my eating disorder because they they both had these really strong OCD like properties where I was in like the the lowest point of my insomnia I had to perform these like rituals and they had to be performed perfectly. I had to like, you know, like watch this show and start the show at this time and have this exact snack and do this and that.

And it had to be done in a perfect order at a specific time. And if anything got thrown off, I wouldn't sleep. And that's, you know, how I had internalized it, which obviously the stress of doing that ritual perfectly made it so I wasn't going to sleep more around right exactly so it obviously it was a faulty faulty kind of way of trying to help myself um but you know I think again like I have so much shame and fear around those times my life how they affected other people in my life. Um, and I do think a lot of, in a lot of ways that actually kind of prevented recovery, um, because, you know,

for example, with insomnia, like, you know, I, it was easier for me to just isolate and stay home and do nothing and just stick to my ritual than it was to kind of like go outside and like burden a friend being like, okay, well we can only go for dinner at like 5 PM kind of like go outside and like burden a friend being like okay well we can only go for dinner like 5 p.m kind of thing or like you know like inconvenience somebody else because of my problem so that just drove me inward and which just kind of reinforced these stupid rituals and then made recovery a little bit like a lot harder basically to get out of. So I guess my question is like, how important is this like social normalcy and relationship building and relationship maintenance when you are going through a mental health struggle or, you know, going through treatment or recovery? I think it's really important. But I

think what you're getting at is really like key because there's nuance here. Like if you look across so many different studies one of the biggest predictors of like how well someone does with mental illness who gets better in treatment etc it's social support like social support is so massively important it's a public health issue right way too lonely and it causes all kinds of things to get worse so yes the isolation is really problematic on the the other hand, if you went the other way, and we're like, you're responsible for getting me better. Like you have to change everything you do, right? So that I can get better. That's probably not going to work either. Yeah, it's kind of like a dialectic where it's like, yeah, you probably ultimately at the

end of the day, like, you are kind of the one that has to get yourself better. Being isolated is not good for you. Right. And there are ways we can leverage our relationships and people are happy for that to happen to help us get better. So like, for example, I'm a worrier. You don't know anything about that. No, I know nothing. What? So like, I love to, when I'm really anxious, like ask people for a lot of reassurance.

Like, do you think this is bad? Do you think this bad thing's going to happen? Daily texts over here. Yeah. Especially during pregnancy. Okay. Pregnancy has been a bit of an anxious time. Well, that makes sense. But outside of that, most of my, first of all, my husband for sure, who is like anti-reassurance seeking in an intense way, but also most of my like really good friends who know like i don't want my worry to get worse like don't give me reassurance i have good friends who are like i'm not going to answer that question because it was asked in the spirit of reassurance oh because you're all psychologists yeah i mean but like but the reason that they do that isn't because they made a

decision it's because i'm like don't give me reassurance about this i just had someone visit me who's a good friend who's really anxious about something. And she was like, don't give me reassurance about it. And I was like, got it. And so like, when she was worrying at me about the things she's worried about, I was just kind of like, yeah, I don't know. That could happen, you know. So like, I think there are ways you can like, if you understand what's going on for you, and want it to get better and you're on board with like the plan, you can like socialize your network to help you recover. And there are also ways like as supporters and friends and loved ones, we can just sort of naturally do things to help people recover more.

If we are like, just like willing to let people feel some feelings and not like immediately shut it down and not like immediately shut it down and stuff like that without taking on too much responsibility i think that's like the oh yeah the line we're trying to walk right that is the line yeah because you don't want i mean at least for me again people pleaser don't want to burden people yeah because that is like that is like heartbreaking for me um i feel like that yeah like. Like you want support, but you, you don't want to ask so much of them that you feel like worse about yourself. Yes, but I will say, yes, I do this interesting experiment when i do couples therapy with

couples where i often get them to rate how close they are to each other from like one to ten and then i get them to share and communicate about something difficult where they're like sharing a lot of negative feelings sure and then i get them to rewrite the closeness and most of the time the closeness goes up yeah i think so yeah and I it's a great way to point out even though you were just sharing something painful yeah it actually brought you together right and when I'm on the receiving end of hearing about a struggle a friend is having I usually don't feel burdened I feel like I know them better right I can be closer to them and I would love them more and that's that's that's what I know to be true but of course like in the moment my anxious mind is like, Oh, my God, now they're not gonna want to hang out with me. They're not

gonna want to invite me places. I know, like, they're, they're gonna shut me out. They're gonna cut me off. I'm too complicated for them. Like, that's all part of the anxious mind, right? Of course, I get there too. But it's also like, then you feel isolated, because you don't feel known by people, right. Nobody knows you. And like nobody really understands you kind of in your full vulnerability. And like that is a part of feeling like connected. Oh. You know?

That's so true. Real talk. Real talk. Okay. Can nobody watch this do this? Yeah. They can't. They absolutely cannot.

No. No. Okay. Actually, that is a theme on Nobody Wants This. Like Kristen Bell's like working on opening up. That's true. That's true. We'll have to see how the second season plays out they may have to have us on as guests like that would work yeah okay um okay last big kind of quick question is like any big tips takeaways for concerned family members who are noticing that a family member might be struggling with their mental health. Yeah. I, you know, this is very like general. Sure. Yes. General is good. But I would say like high level, I think that a lot of things fester in silence and often our

knee jerk reaction, a lot of families knee jerk reactions is like, don't say anything. Right. And like walk on eggshells. I understand that. Totally. And you know, I would say like, there are ways to raise your concerns that are loving and not like stressful. Like we all wrote a letter and you know, you're in a pressure cooker. Yeah. Like with cameras intervention. Yeah, exactly. Don't do that. Yeah. There are ways to just lovingly sit down and be like, hey, I'm just kind of noticing this. Yeah. And I'm noticing that it seems really painful for you. And I'm like, like worried, like, right.

Is there something you're willing to talk to me about? Totally. And like, can I help you get help? Right. Or help you find somebody, blah, blah, blah. I would usually start there in general like there are some people where maybe talking about it's going to make it worse like i don't know everybody's situation's different totally you can start there and then like sometimes and then and then hopefully

they open up and you can bridge to that i think that we as a species you know move really too fast towards trying to solve problems instead of just like listening to people share that's a good point so yeah i think about like we think about i think about this there's like two channels to communication like the sharing channel and the solving channel right so like solving is like well you should do this right abby you should just eat more it's very like mansplaining it's very mansplaining yeah which is like the most annoying person thing for like especially for an anxious person like there's nothing worse than sharing something you're anxious about and you really just like kind of wanting to be validated but instead you're getting well

why don't you just do x y and z yeah i was like really anxious the other day and somebody who i love started talking about like well hopefully your like anxiety is not impacting the baby and like maybe you should just like try and be less anxious and i was like what a helpful comment no so yeah so like i think that in general and the reason we get like that is because we don't want our loved ones to feel upset right like we want the distress to go away for them so it's like from a caring place but it is usually unhelpful. Right. And so sharing usually needs to take precedence unless you're in a crisis, unless something really urgent's happening. But it's kind of like, can you try and tolerate your distress long enough to be like,

what's going on for you? What's that like? And if you were at the time able to be like, this is what's going on. And these are all these rules. Like, of course I would have had the urge to be like, well, just don't do that. What if we do this or this or this? Right. But I think it probably would have been more effective for a while if I was just like, that sounds really hard. Right. You know, that sounds really scary. It sounds like you don't have a lot of oxygen here. Like that's really tough. Yeah. And then when you feel like really listened to for long enough, maybe we could talk about some specifics. Yeah. So I would say that's one thing. And then the other thing that's often very hard for loved ones is like, sometimes people do not want to do it. Sometimes

you can do everything perfectly. You can be the best sharing channel conversationalist, and they don't want to talk to you about it. They don't want to get better. And then maybe you need some of your own support, right? Because that's really stressful for you to witness as somebody who loves that person it's a really good point yeah because like you said like you're you know mental illness is about the relationship it's about the family system it's not just about the one person and how they're affected um so you know if you yourself are in the trenches dealing with you know a loved ones who is struggling and it's that can be hard on you too in a lot of ways so of course getting your own help is is really a good tip for people yes totally i love that okay well sky thank you for coming you're welcome next time we'll talk

about feminism food and feelings and fuck yeah there's so much more fucks so many more fucks to say we said almost none i know can we just like dub a bunch of other words and with fuck yeah yeah yeah we'll just switch things around and thank you for like sneaking us in before this baby comes yeah you're welcome oh okay well as always everyone go tell your friends something vulnerable oh yeah i love that and sky can you just quickly tell us about the tulip lab yes thank you yeah so if So in my research lab, we do studies on the way relationships interact around mental illness, as I said. And so we do have one study going right now for couples where one person has borderline personal disorder or struggles with suicidal or self-injurious thoughts. So if you think that may apply to you or your partner or you and your

partner, you can email us at bpdstudy at yorku.ca. Amazing. And we'll put all that information in the show notes as well. Thank you. Thank you, Skye. Okay, I am so glad that I was able to introduce you to my super smart and super cool sister Sky. And obviously, I know how lucky I am to have an actual psychologist in the family. You don't need to be a professional to support your loved ones who may be struggling with their mental health. One of the questions I've repeatedly seen pop up in my DMs is, I think my friend or

family member might have an eating disorder. How can I talk to them about this and gently encourage them to get help? Honestly, I don't know if I've ever given anyone a thorough reply because I think I've just been spending the past 20 years trying to think about what I would have resonated with. Because just as Sky said, like at the end of the day, we have to come to a state of readiness ourselves. And I feel like if I had been sat down for an abrupt intervention, I personally probably would have pulled away. But I've thought a lot about this. And I've also chatted with other experts in the field. And I wanted to share some suggestions on do's and don'ts, keeping in mind that obviously different people will respond to

different communication styles. So take this more as inspiration, not as one-size-fits-all instruction. But let's start with what not to do or say to someone who you suspect may be struggling with disordered eating. Number one, never comment on their body or weight. So that means never saying things like, oh, you look so skinny, you should eat, or, oh, you're looking unwell or gaunt, which can then further perpetuate the shame spiral and make people feel even more embarrassed by their body. Conversely, you also shouldn't say you look healthier or you're looking so much better if and when somebody does appear to have gained some weight back. Even if you think this is a compliment to someone actively wrestling with an ED,

this may actually be interpreted as, oh, I look fat now and everybody's noticing I have failed my ED, which is very likely to trigger a relapse. So, yeah, do not comment on somebody's body ever, ever the end. Number two, don't make self-deprecating jokes about your own weight or body as like a backhanded compliment to your friend. So try to avoid saying things like, oh I wish I had your problem, I can't seem to keep the weight off. To an ED brain, this insinuates that their eating disorder is like a gift, which will absolutely be used as evidence that their restrictive behaviors are a good thing. Number three, don't minimize the ED reality by telling your friend to just eat a burger. I remember hearing people say things like that to me all the time,

and it honestly just reinforced to me how alone I felt and how impossible it was to relate to anyone else because there was no way my ED brain would let me just eat a burger without an overwhelming amount of crushing anxiety and days of compulsive behaviors to pay for it. So you got some of the don'ts. Now let's talk a bit more about some things to try which might help to support your loved ones. So number one, regularly invite them to socialize. As we've discussed, eating disorders are inherently very isolating, but isolation can often worsen or perpetuate eating disorder behaviors since restricting and binging, purging and other unusual eating rituals are just easier when done alone. So as an eating disorder progresses, it becomes harder to engage in these social activities, especially because they often revolve around a triggering activity like eating. So even if you continue to hear the words no when you ask your friend to join in on activities, don't stop inviting them altogether. Yes, you might continue to get a no, and I fully acknowledge that this

definitely can hurt. But continuing to ask creates ongoing opportunities for the individual suffering to eventually get out, and it also helps them feel valued as a person and friend. And that ties into my next tip, which is to help build up their self-esteem. The ED brain is highly critical and not just about the body in the mirror, but really about who you are as a person. And when you're in a state of being constantly torn down by your own thoughts and beliefs about yourself, it can easily feed into destructive and self-harming ED behaviors. Telling your loved one what a great person they are and how much you appreciate them in your life and that you're unconditionally interested in who they are can really help to slowly rewire the brain in preparation for recovery. Number three, remind them of how you see them as a person. The ED brain often makes you feel like your whole identity revolves around your eating and food behaviors.

For me, I remember thinking that everybody in my life just saw me as this like tall, thin girl who ate super healthy. So recovery kind of felt like I was literally losing everything I knew about myself. But I remember telling my guy friend this and him being like, oh, that's strange because that's not really how I think about you at all. And that was a huge wake up call for me to realize that I had the ED blinders on and the people who actually cared about me could see well beyond these superficial aspects of who I was. Finally, create regular opportunities for open discussions without judgment or dogmatic advice. Assuming you're addressing this in the early stages and not when you're in a crisis mode, when no one's health status necessitates more direct help, try to lead with curiosity, compassion, and empathy rather than an intervention

style attack. So this brings me to a quick little script that I have thoughtfully prepared that I think that I would probably feel confident using if a friend or family member of mine was struggling with their relationship with food. So first of all, I think it's important to choose a time and place for this conversation that's comfortable and private, and ideally not immediately during or around a mealtime, which is likely when anxiety levels are already quite high. So keeping those do's and don'ts in mind, I think it's best to stick to bringing up non-clinical observations like food behaviors, moods, isolation, and interactions rather than immediately accusing somebody of having an eating disorder or pointing only to physical changes like weight loss because that could

kind of throw the eating brain into full-out defense mode. So assuming the vibe is right, here's how I would probably leave. Hey, how are you feeling these days? Yeah? I mean, I could be way off base here, but I feel like we know each other really well. And it seems like maybe there's been some extra anxiety around food these days. And, you know, maybe you're just kind of feeling the effects of that pressure. I don't know. I just noticed that you haven't wanted to go to our favorite restaurant in a while, and you haven't been eating lunch with us, and you just seem a little bit more agitated or on edge around mealtime. And obviously, I know that you're into nutrition, but it does seem like it's maybe taking a lot of space up in your day. And this is not a judgment for me because I feel like it's so hard not to be

affected by diet culture in like a really, really major way. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone here and I love you no matter what. And I just want to support you in any way that I can to help you feel your best, like physically, of course, but also emotionally as well. And I'd love to be a sounding board if you do want to chat, or I can help you find a really great professional who's probably got way more insight and advice. I think it's really important to keep this first chat conversational and casual because I feel like coming on too strong with an eating disorder treatment pamphlet will feel like they're being subjected to a full-blown intervention. And if it were me, that would probably trigger a combination of anger,

embarrassment, shame, and denial, leading me to avoid that person at any or all costs. Leading with compassion and curiosity helps keep the door open for future conversations and ultimately for recovery. Well, folks, I hope this episode was helpful. I actually found it a bit cathartic because I kind of felt like I was talking to my 18 year old self, but doing so as a 37 year old adult. But a big thank you to my sister Sky for being my sister,

but also helping me personally bite back against diet culture on my own journey, but also for sharing her knowledge with us today. I also want to invite folks to check out Sky's most recent call for research participants. She's been recruiting folks who are struggling with intense emotions, suicide, and self-injury, and their partners. So I'm going to be leaving a link to that in the show notes to learn more. But signing off with Science and Sass, I'm Abbey Sharp.

Thanks for listening.