Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - Is Big Ag the BAD Guy? Debunking a Crop of Food Misinformation with Farmer Michelle Miller

Starting point is 00:00:00 I don't like the misleading claims. Like there's a million ways that you can sell why your product is better without having to say, down with factory farms, buy our product. Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abby Sharp, where I dismantle Diet Culture Rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. Today we are diving into one of the most polarizing topics in food. media. Big Egg. We've all seen the documentaries, the fear-based headlines, and the viral podcast interviews telling us that large-scale agriculture is destroying our planet and poisoning

Starting point is 00:00:45 our food. But is that the full picture? To help us unpack this, I'm thrilled to be joined by Michelle Miller, aka the Farm Babe, one of the nation's most influential voices working to bridge the gap between consumers and the people who grow their food. Michelle and I will talk about what is actually going on in those big scary factory farms, the truth about pesticides, and the potential use of regenerative practices in big egg farms. Before we get into it, we are weeks away from the launch of my new book, The Hunger Cushing combo method. If you've been on the diet roller coaster all of your life and are looking for a more sustainable approach that has helped thousands of people already, this is going to

Starting point is 00:01:36 be your Bible. There's specific chapters on how to apply this method for your unique goals and situations, including achieving a healthy body weight, blood sugar balance, menopause and paramenopause, and so much more. I would really love if you would pre-order as pre-orders make a massive difference in the success of a book. So it really, really, really, really would mean so much to me. And as a thank you, I am giving away a free hunger crushing combo holiday survival guide. So please check out the description on how to redeem that today.

Starting point is 00:02:11 All right, friends, let's dive in. Okay, Michelle, I am super excited to chat today. I mean, farming is something that I am very passionate about. I actually married into a farming family. and I'm, you know, all about finding ways to, you know, break down barriers to getting nutritious foods in more family's home. So I love this. So thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Now I understand why you're so factually accurate when it comes to agriculture. I didn't realize that you're married into it. Yes. Yes. No, absolutely. And, you know, to start off here, I, you know, I often love to do like a little quick fire myth busting, just kind of like warm us up.

Starting point is 00:02:55 And we'll go into more details on these soon. So really, quick fact fiction. Are you ready? Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. So first, big egg means giant corporations own all of the farms. No, false. 97% farms are family owned. And yes, sometimes some of them contracts grow for larger scale agriculture, but big does not necessarily mean bad. Whoa, I love that. Okay. Okay, so here's another one. Pesticides in industrial farms are poisoning our food. Oh my god, I hate that one. First of all, how are they defining industrial? Like, I feel like it's always like these adjectives that want to, again, paint it out like it's some sort of bad thing. And farms continue to grow. Farmers are 1% of the population of North America.

Starting point is 00:03:44 So, yes, a lot of them are becoming big to feed us all. Equipments getting bigger. Pesticides are very well regulated. We're using safer pesticides than ever before. Softer in a more specific dose for more specific problem, and the dose makes the poison. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and we'll talk more about that soon. Okay, here's another one. Big Egg farmers are rolling in cash. Oh, my God, I wish. Oh, no. There, as the price of operating a farm continues to rise and dealing with different types of political pressures and tariffs and monopolies and different types of agriculture, a lot of farmers are struggling to make ends meet lately with the low commodity price.

Starting point is 00:04:27 Awesome. Okay, here's another one. Big Egg is destroying the planet. One of my favorites to bust. Again, we're doing more with less. We are reducing our chemical use. We are reducing things that we don't like. And that is the farmer's number one goal is to save money, be more profitable. And to do that, you must eliminate or reduce your input costs. So we're trying to maximize our yields by reducing what we're putting. on the field. So yeah, we've got a lot to bust today. Lots to unpack. Okay, two more, two more. Okay, all industrial farms are cruel and abusive towards animals. It's like you can't grow your business if you don't understand animals. Like, it's just like any other business. So yeah, some of the

Starting point is 00:05:14 larger scale farms are the ones that have the most understanding of animal health because they've done it thousands and thousands of times over decades' worth of experts. And usually, decades worth of experience and usually have the best experts on staff because some of the biggest farms have the means and the resources to hire full-time veterinarians, full-time staff, like some of the best people and animal handling experts or they've got more oversight or regulations because they're selling into some of the bigger corporations that require additional steps to ensure animal health and welfare. Okay, amazing. And the last one here. Industrial agriculture and regenerative agriculture cannot coexist. They absolutely can

Starting point is 00:05:57 coexist. But again, what is the definition of industrial egg? It's like people trying to say that big is like this blank faceless industrial corporation. Like you just picture, you picture like a factory or something. And it's like family farmers values haven't changed. Like yes, some of their farms have changed. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's break. some of this down now. So you mentioned that regenerative practices and kind of quote unquote big egg are not mutually exclusive. Can you talk a little bit about some of the potential environmental benefits of scale? Yeah. I mean, like you just have more tools in the toolbox. So maybe you have more precise equipment. Like let's just say a sprayer, for example, like if you

Starting point is 00:06:43 are using a sprayer to spray pesticides or like crop protection products to protect your plants, maybe you can afford one that's bigger and better that has better spray technology like nowadays a modern sprayer will have sensors on it that can tell oh you already sprayed there or it'll automatically shut off so you're not doing the same area twice you have more access to precision agriculture

Starting point is 00:07:06 like GPS systems you know exactly what's going where and you can really control that variable rate of different products that you're using at a certain area at a certain time so maybe like a smaller scale farm that's doing things more by hand or maybe doesn't know the technology or they don't have access to those data points. You know, you could argue, hey, like, because we're a larger scale farm, we have the best technology. We are utilizing the best terraces, the buffer zones from waterways.

Starting point is 00:07:33 You have, maybe your pesticides are going to spray. Your spray is going to drift less. You know, there's so many things. I mean, there's just so many ways. That's just one example. No, I was reading about that as well, that we have better precision agriculture tools, right, that can, you know, apply those, the compost, the biofertilizers or the water exactly where it needs. And we, you know, we got drones and satellite data to track soil carbon and plant diversity and all that. I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface like here, like you mentioned. But, you know, another one that I want to talk about is that, you know, from my channels, I've talked a lot about GMOs versus conventional crops. And I've been very vocal about their safety. And also the fact that that there's virtually, you know, that conventionally grown products are virtually no less nutritious than organic non-GMOs. And, you know, personally, I don't really care if people want to choose organic over conventional produce, but I do care about misinformation. And if that misinformation results in people eating less produce out of fear because they

Starting point is 00:08:34 just cannot afford to buy organic. So obviously as a dietitian, I'm focused and worrying about public health. But as a farmer, you know, what are you? most worried about when it comes to GMO and organic misinformation. I couldn't have said that better myself, Abby. Now, okay, organic and natural is a $350 billion industry. So for them to be like big egg, GMOs, it's kind of like, hey, you're profiting off of fear. Like, let's not, let's be real here. And so when they're shutting down GMOs or they're shutting down technology or things that could really help everybody, they're essentially shutting down some of the world's poorest farmers and

Starting point is 00:09:12 the world's poorest people and the people around the world that need access to the best technology. And when policy doesn't understand that, and when perception doesn't understand that, it hurts the entire world. And it reduces yield. And it's worse for the planet. And like, we need to have access to these tools that are proven safe and effective to maximize our yield as we lose three acres of farmland every minute to urban development. Whoa, I did not know that stat. That's pretty scary. Yes, it is. Yeah. I mean, we're losing farms. at alarming rates. I'm in South Florida today. And I've been interviewing a lot of farms down here and just talking about like what it used to be and the threat of urban sprawl. This is just one

Starting point is 00:09:52 example that's happening everywhere. Wow. And and you know, building on this, I want to talk about pesticides because, you know, there's always so much fearmongering about pesticides, especially, you know, things like glyphosite, which all these anti-science activist groups like the EWG or like, they love to conjure up these images of like you serving your kids a bowl of cereal while spraying it with a chemical bottle by somebody in a hazmat suit. Like, you know, it's terrifying for parents to see that kind of stuff. And so for those who have never, you know, for people who have never been on a farm, can you explain how pesticides are applied in conventional versus organic farms and maybe

Starting point is 00:10:33 the benefits of some of these demonized pesticides like glyphosate? Yeah. So as a larger scale commercial or a larger commercial scale farmer, myself, I mean, we were spraying glyphosate sometimes, which is how my blog and platform really took off was through the Smithbusting of like, yes, we grow GMOs. Like, yes, sometimes we spray glyphosate, but it is at a rate of 22 ounces per acre. So you're looking at like, you know, like less than two beer cans on an area of land the size of a football field. So when people see these sprayers, they just, they think that this is all these chemicals and we're just spraying all the time.

Starting point is 00:11:07 And first of all, in order for us to spray, you know, we've got to have licenses, certifications, trainings, ongoing education, proper handling, and then it's always the dose makes the poison. So it's because of GMOs that we're only spraying, you know, glyphosate or maybe a mixture of a couple of different herbicides. And we only spray like one or two days out of the entire year at the very beginning part of the growing season. So the misinformation train, like as a myth buster and agriculture, like I've got a lot of, we've got a lot of what's sort of looking for job security? Because fear sells. And so they're out there painting these pictures.

Starting point is 00:11:46 But the people that are demonizing this perfectly safe and healthy food want people to pay more for their groceries. And that fearmongering is sponsored by the organic and natural $350 billion a year industry. Make no mistake, like big wellness is a trillion dollar industry. And so organic uses pesticides. Like I was actually just on a farm here in South Florida the other day where they were spraying an organic fungicide directly on organic kale. And so that's what really drives me crazy is the misinformation where people say, oh, organic is so pure and great, but like it's not. So even for the consumer that thinks, oh, I got to pay for this, it's better, they're getting, they're getting lied to. Like the key word

Starting point is 00:12:24 for organics is no synthetic pesticides, but natural means nothing in terms of toxicity. So organic can sometimes spray more than non-organic. It's just a naturally derived chemical. But again, it's like the dose makes the poison. You'd have to eat. eat like thousands of servings in a single setting or single sitting in order to negatively impact you. So it's like very minimal, very fine mist. We're washing our produce. Eat more produce. Yeah. Eat more produce regardless of how it's grown. I mean, and like you said, some organic pesticides may not even be as effective as the, you know, the non-organic. So farmers need to use more of them. And also synthetic pesticides actually have a lot more safety data than

Starting point is 00:13:09 organic in a lot of cases. Like glyphosite, for example, has over 1,500 studies to support its safety and efficacy. And we've got research that shows that it has a lower acute toxicity level than 94% of all herbicides, including those kind of quote, quote, natural herbicides that are being used for organics. And I mean, I just feel like I'm constantly having to debunk this whole glyphosate causes cancer narrative. And, you know, just for people's background knowledge, this is all based on very kind of faulty eye arc system that really only evaluates whether a substance can cause cancer under certain conditions, which is what we call a hazard. But it doesn't tell you the likelihood or the dose or the level of exposure that would be required to do so, which is

Starting point is 00:13:56 the actual risk. And when we look at all these like smear campaigns that we've seen recently, like, you know, Cheerios or Bonza having these high levels of glyphosite, they fail to mention that you would have to consume over 200 bowls of pasta every single day of your life to get anywhere close to the already very conservative ADI for glyphosate. Like you would die from iron toxicity or like you'd blow up from fiber before the glyphosate ever had a chance to harm you. Yeah. No, I was just going to say like there's a reason though why glyphosate is so popular is because if you look at what we used to use before we transitioned into that, it was much, much worse. And so farmers are swinging their praises when stuff like GMOs and glyphosate comes out because it's phased out some of the

Starting point is 00:14:47 older skull and crossbone products that were no longer using. If you look back to pesticides like a hundred years ago, like I think arsenic was the most popular one, right? So it's like, we can't keep going backwards. This is why it's so important to get the facts out there to help people understand chemistry, the dose makes the poison and how we continue to continue to keep going. Like, I bet 50 years from now, we'll look back and say, oh, thank God, we no longer have to use that glyphosate stuff. But as of right now, like, it's one of the best tools in the toolbox we have, which is why it's so popular. Yeah. And just so people know, like, there have been organic pesticides that were being used because they thought, oh, it's natural, it's safer. And then we

Starting point is 00:15:26 found out that they actually, like, they were heavily toxic and had to be pulled from the system. So natural doesn't always mean healthier, doesn't always mean better. This is all part of this appeal to nature's fallacy that unfortunately wellness culture loves to just drill into us that, you know, that natural is always, you know, safer, healthier, better when that actually is absolutely not the case because like there's a lot of natural substances out there that are very, very, very toxic. Asbestos, for example. And arsenic and, you know, lead and all these things that are just naturally found in the earth. You don't want to be consuming those in heavy doses, right?

Starting point is 00:16:04 Very true. Now there's one kind of last area that I want to touch on, and it may be even more controversial than everything else we've already touched on. So I, of course, want to lead with some sensitivity, especially to my friends who, for various, you know, moral, religious, environmental, health, or other reasons choose not to consume animal products. But this idea of, like, factory farms, like they're consistently characterized by animal cruelty and inhumane living conditions and environments and poor sanitation. And I'm not a vegetarian, but it is even hard for me to watch these videos that pop up on social media of like, like hundreds of birds like, you know, trembling on top of each other and like a small pen and, you know, these things pop in my feet and guarantee, you know, now that I'm talking

Starting point is 00:17:05 about it, I'm going to be served a bunch more of these videos. So that's always tough. But I'm not suggesting that this is fake news. I'm sure there are factory firms out there who are acting inhumanely if, you know, the economic model favors practices like that that compromise animal welfare. But do all large poultry or cattle farms work this way? Can you talk about at that? No, the absolute opposite is true. And this is one of my favorite myths to bust. I have been to hundreds of some of the largest so-called factory farms, especially here in North America. And wow, like this is the one thing that I just wish I could bring everybody to is the technology behind some of the largest feedlots, whether it's beef, pork, poultry, whatever, are doing an

Starting point is 00:17:51 incredible job. Like, I would say maybe back in like the 90s, like 80s, 90s, or and they were still trying to figure it out. Maybe it wasn't that good. But nowadays, there's ventilation, there's better housing, there's biosecurity, there's better genetics, there's better transport, care, watering systems, feeders. I mean, the list goes on. And they've really studied this stuff to a science where they know what's called stocking density, which is how they know exactly.

Starting point is 00:18:18 Here's how many cattle we can put in this pen to maximize that rate of gain because it is still a business. Like you still have to, you know, or poultry, like you want to know, like, hey, we have to spend this much to raise the chicken to be this big. There's no such thing as added hormones in poultry or pork. It's not even a thing. It hasn't been a thing in almost 80 years. And so food corporations are capitalizing on this. No, absolutely not.

Starting point is 00:18:41 Like, the bigger the farm, the more I am impressed. Like, it's shocking. Like, to know that we can raise millions of animals with no antibiotics ever nowadays is very commonplace. You'd be hard-pressed, like especially places like Purdue, like the big chicken company, I was just, I just did a whole animal welfare summit with them. And they showed me and took me around. And they actually invited some of these animal rights activists to be like, hey, we're

Starting point is 00:19:07 transparent. Like we care about animals too. Like we don't have to, we can agree to disagree on whether or not we want to eat them. But rest assured, if you are buying like the cheapest in the store or whatever label you want, I mean, I always encourage people to buy local direct from the local family farm is great. But like, if you are in the grocery store and you want to purchase the cheapest, that doesn't mean you're making a bad decision, I promise you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:32 And wow. And I can imagine this is becoming even harder for people to make sense of now with AI. Like, obviously, I'm not suggesting that abuse does not happen. I'm sure it does. But there will always be, you know, a financial agenda for any position or message that you can imagine whether that's anti-mead or pro-meat or pro-organic or whatever. ever, you know, a lot of what we are seeing now online might not even be real. And as a science communicator, that is, that is really scary for me. And so they do this and they, and they portray it,

Starting point is 00:20:05 or they're trying to sell a different meat product by saying factory farms are bad, you better r, pasture raise, grass-fed, organic, non-GMO for only three times the price. And so they get you like that. And so, you know, I don't buy any of the expensive labels stuff personally because I don't like the misleading claims. Like there's a million ways that you can sell why your product is better without having to say, down with factory farms, buy our product. It's like, say, buy our product because we do this differently and this is what makes us great. And you don't have to spread disinformation or fear mongering to sell. And that's why I won't buy into those labels. Okay, AI aside, you know, I also think it's just fairly hard for people to know what's going on behind

Starting point is 00:20:46 the curtain because there's generally just a lot of greenwashing with, you know, all of these different terms that ultimately people just don't really understand whether that's like free range or pasture range or organic. And in some cases, these terms don't even mean a whole lot. Like by law, organic animals, they need to have quote, unquote, outdoor access. But this isn't necessarily that well defined and it could literally mean a small dirt lawn. And then, you know, something like pasture raised, that's not even a legal term. So it's basically just like self-defined by the producers. So if you're not able to actually like visit the farming question, it's very hard for people to really get a sense of of what's happening and what's actually going on. But just to clarify, because I think

Starting point is 00:21:31 this, you know, is something that people don't realize that a lot of these certifications cost farmers money. So, you know, not having an organic label doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't upholding organic like standards, right? Yeah, 100%. I know a ton of farms that choose. to not be organic certified because of the additional paperwork and expense and nonsense that they have to go through to get that certification. So, yeah, I mean, I know tons of farms that are like, we're not certified. I mean, like, I was a livestock farmer and I sold meat directly to the consumer. And I mean, yeah, just because we don't have a fancy label doesn't mean, I mean, there's still, we're raised on pasture, still had tons of room to run around. I mean, very, very proud

Starting point is 00:22:14 of what we were doing. But yeah, I don't, there's definitely a lot of truth to that. Yeah, I feel like bottom line, you know, while our food system is certainly not perfect, it is still remarkably safe. And ultimately, I hope people are making choices based mostly on, you know, their budget predominantly rather than, you know, label claims, which can mean multiple things or definitely not some fear-mongering headline in their social feed. Yeah, exactly. But thank you so much, Michelle. This was really, really fascinating. And I will be leaving links to where people can find all of your content because I always learn so much from you. And vice versa, I love learning from you too. Thank you so much for everything you do and for having me today. Okay, I don't know

Starting point is 00:22:59 about you guys, but I feel like this conversation with Michelle has absolutely challenged some my own assumptions. And I feel like it just really made me realize that so much of what we believe about food and farming isn't actually about facts. It's about feelings. You know, when we consider our society's collective relationship with food, you can appreciate how far removed most of us have become from the places and people who grow it. For most people, food now arrives just neatly packaged and pre-washed and algorithmically recommended, and our understanding of agriculture is shaped less by firsthand experience and just more by the stories we consume online. line. That distance leaves a gap and whenever there's a gap, there's an opportunity for

Starting point is 00:23:53 oversimplified narratives to slip in. Suddenly, we are told that there are good farmers and they are bad ones. There's clean food and there's dirty food. And the industrial scale that feeds billions is reduced to a villain in a black hat. But the truth is, as Michelle reminds us, it is so much more complex. And the same technologies and efficiencies that make big egg a target of suspicion are also what keeps grocery shelves stocked and food prices relatively stable in a fragile global system. It is very easy from an urban lens to romanticize the small factory farm and demonize the large one. But ultimately, that just oversimplifies both.

Starting point is 00:24:42 There is privilege embedded in rejecting industrial food when it's actually precisely that infrastructure that allows parents the ability to buy their kids fruits and vegetables without being late on rent. If we truly want a food system that is sustainable, ethical, and equitable, we have to start by closing that empathy gap. Not just between eaters and farmers, but between perception and reality. And that means being willing to be curious rather than automatically cynical, to look past the aesthetics of quote-unquote natural and homegrown and ask harder questions about what actually works on a large and long-term scale. But on that note, a big thank you again to Michelle for helping me to bite back against misinformation. And if you're

Starting point is 00:25:40 looking for a no BS simple and evidence-based approach for building balanced meals and snacks without drama. My brand new book, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, is coming out in January, just a few short weeks away, and I would be so appreciative if you would pre-order, because honestly, pre-orders make such a big difference in the success of a book. And if you pre-order today, you're going to get my free Hunger Crushing Combo Holiday Survival Guide e-book. So definitely check out the link in the description to claim your freebie. And on that note, signing off with Science and SASS. I'm Abby Sharp. Thanks for listening.

Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - Is Big Ag the BAD Guy? Debunking a Crop of Food Misinformation with Farmer Michelle Miller

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