Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - Planned, Pure & Perfect? The Modern Pressure to OPTIMIZE Natural Birth (and What Happens When Plans Change) with Jen Hamilton

Starting point is 00:00:00 There's this fear that's a very logical fear because it does happen of having bad things happen because of interventions. And I'm here to tell you it happens all the time. But I think that the underlying part of that is protection. Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abby Sharp, where I dismantle die culture rules, call it the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience and help you achieve food freedom for good. Today's episode is for my friends who are currently pregnant, have been pregnant, want to be pregnant, or have pregnant people in your lives that you want to support. Because we have everyone's favorite labor and delivery nurse on the show today, Jen Hamilton. Honestly, I wish I had someone like Jen around when I was going through my first pregnancy

Starting point is 00:00:56 because she makes what often feels like an unpredictable time way less scary. And in her upcoming book, Birth Vibes Coming Out in May, she breaks it all down with her signature empathetic, inclusive, and hilarious tone, helping to demystify all of the pregnancy and birthing lore for good. And speaking of books, as you know, because I've been yapping about it forever now, the Hunger Crushing combo method is now on shelves and online, and I would really love if you'd give it a read or listen if you prefer an audiobook version. I did the recording myself.

Starting point is 00:01:33 I already know that you are going to learn so much. I have been reading every single one of your amazing reviews and comments about the book. And so I just know that this book is going to help so, so many. So if you haven't already picked up a copy, I would love if you would check it out. Also, I know you guys know this already because I've raised you all very well. But I just have to say that the information in this episode is never a replacement for personalized health care advice, so please do speak to your doctor about your unique needs, especially at a sensitive time like pregnancy. But if you are not already, I would also love if you would subscribe to this podcast

Starting point is 00:02:13 wherever you are listening right now. And leave me a little five-star review. It really, really helps me out, whether you are on Amazon or Apple. Same thing with the book. If you've read it, you know, Amazon, Apple, Goodreads, Audible, wherever you are listening to this or reading the book or listen to the book, I would love your reviews. It really, really does make the world of a difference. Okay, but I am so pumped to get into this interview, so let's do it. All right, Jen, thank you so much for joining me. You don't know me, but I'm definitely, I'm going to be your friend because I feel like we're going to get along.

Starting point is 00:02:56 And I love your vibe. I love your style. I loved birth vibes, your new book. Thank you so much. I love that you started that book with your birth story. So can you share like how your experience impacted your own kind of professional practice? So I have had two pregnancies and each of those were very different. My first pregnancy was very unexpected.

Starting point is 00:03:22 So I find myself really relating to patients who come in where this was not their plan. And then my second was kind of planned, kind of not. But I knew just about as much equally. So I was an ER nurse when I had both of my babies. So I did not know much about labor or birth at all. I asked my nurse is like, please do not talk to me like I'm a nurse. I need you to treat me as if I am not anyone who knows anything about anything. So and they did, which was wonderful because I needed somebody to kind of walk me through that.

Starting point is 00:04:00 But it was really important for me to put my own birth. story first because I needed people to know that like I get it. Like I know what it feels like to not know what's happening to your body. I get what it feels like to feel scared or feel unsure about what's going to happen next. And so I was really unsure about putting it in there at first because I was like, I don't want to make this about me. But I think that I'm, I mean, I'm really glad that I did now because I think that it kind of sets the tone for like I'm here with you not I'm here to talk at you yeah no I thank you for sharing that you know I just think it's very empowering to use your experience to shape your current work you know in you know in my book the hunger

Starting point is 00:04:51 crushing commo method I also start with my own eating disorder recovery story and how you know I harnessed that hardship into energy and momentum to, you know, demand change in this space. And you're such an inspiration. If anyone's going to convince me to have another kid, it is you. You're great. I'm not going to do it. So I'm not going to do it. But also no, yes.

Starting point is 00:05:17 But okay, so on, you know, here on the bite back podcast, we love to bring expert guidance and science to debunk misinformation. and just help people make more informed health choices. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of like trending topics in this space because they feel there's so many wives tales around birthing and motherhood. It's just like ingrained into the fabric of generations of women's storytelling. So the first one I want to kind of ask you about, I'm sure you hear, is like, can you induce labor by eating certain foods?

Starting point is 00:05:54 I wish. Man, that would be so much. easier. You are not going to put yourself into labor if your body is not ready for labor. So I don't think that any of those things like eating dates and pineapple juice, I don't think that there's anything wrong with it. But I think that sometimes people can get really disappointed if they just, you know, slam dates and pineapple juice and nothing happens. So I think that, you know, there's always some level of, you know, tempering your expectations about what that will provide for you, but also knowing, hey, if you want to try it, that's okay too.

Starting point is 00:06:34 But there are, you know, some people online who are like, this is what took me into labor. And we're just always reaching for that thing, that one thing that's going to make it happen for us. So I don't think there's anything wrong with it unless you're trying to induce in some crazy way, like shoving stuff up there. you know, drinking castor oil or something like that. But yeah, I don't think there's any harm in it, but I see people get very disappointed at the end of pregnancy. 100%. When you're in that state and you're balls deep in the mom Reddit threads of like,

Starting point is 00:07:10 what's going to help? You know, you're in that mentality of like, I have to do everything and try everything. Right. And so, like, even I remember of my first pregnancy, I was going overdue. My doctor did not want me to go overdue because I was an IVF mom. And so I was like, okay, red raspberry leaf tea every day, which tastes like shit, bouncing on the ball, spicy food, sex, walking. The dates, the dates. Oh, you have to eat like six to eight dates every day.

Starting point is 00:07:36 It's like that's a lot of sugar. Yeah. It did nothing. I had to be induced twice. Right. You know, and so, but there is that element for moms that like so desperately we want to feel like we're controlling something that is ultimately an. an uncontrollable situation. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:53 Also, that kind of gave me a thought because sometimes birth is unpredictable and you don't always, like, you don't get to time it with, like, after a nicely filling meal, so to speak, that, like, gives you all the energy that you feel like you're going to need to go through the marathon of birth. Yeah. And fuel does matter. Like, it is quite a marathon. What do you typically suggest, like, women eat while they're still in that, like, early labor

Starting point is 00:08:19 stage where they're not throwing up, they're not shaking, the pain is tolerable. What do you suggest? So it really depends on what they can tolerate too, because sometimes you've got people with like aversions and stuff like that. But power foods and power drinks, power drinks, I think, are really important because as your labor progresses, understand that you may see whatever you eat again. And that's okay. It's a part of labor. Did you throw up in labor at all? Oh, my God. So much. Yeah. My first, my first I was throwing up like basically at the point when I did the pushing. But with my second, I was on the way to the hospital, yacking, like outside the hospital doors, just like throwing up in front, like in front of the people waiting outside. I had no shame at that point. Yes. And I want people to know that they can make their own big girl decisions about what they choose to eat and drink and labor. They're some. Some hospitals with very outdated policies saying that you can't have anything to eat or drink, which is wild. Like labor is a marathon and I couldn't expect you to run a marathon having no sustenance at all.

Starting point is 00:09:35 So just know that you can make your own decisions. The reason that they say that, it's outdated research, but it's saying that like, you know, if you go into labor, everybody is at risk of having a C-section emergently or not. And if your stomach is full and you lay back, I mean, you could throw up. And if you're throwing up on your back, you could aspirate that. And that would obviously not be a good situation. So understand why they say that. But at the same time, if you're not getting enough nutrition during your labor, it can, I mean, that impacts how your muscles contract and your in your uterus is a big muscle.

Starting point is 00:10:14 So I've seen people bring in like Gatorades or Powerades. or like liquid IV kind of things where people are, you know, like you have like the electrolytes and stuff. Some type of electrolyte, electrolyte drink. Those honey sticks are really great. Yes. If you feel like you can't tolerate much on your stomach. Absolutely. Some carbs.

Starting point is 00:10:36 Yeah. That's what the candy came in. I was just sugar. Yeah. Candy, absolutely. Yeah. I think that having just those like quick, easy things are really helpful in just. I tell people when they come in to have a baby, think light.

Starting point is 00:10:52 Think brunchy light stuff. Don't be thinking cook out double cheeseburger because that might not sit on your stomach very well soon. You may feel like you want to in the beginning. You may not want to see that again later. That's the mistake I basically made both times, even though it didn't end very well for me the first time because I had in my head that now that the labor was starting,

Starting point is 00:11:15 I want to speed it up. So I went and got myself the spiciest ramen, noodles you could order. That did not feel good coming back up. Yeah. And I knew that was going to be the case, but I was also like so hell bent on like, yeah, let's get this baby like out. And I pay for that.

Starting point is 00:11:33 That was rough. That was very, very rough. So yeah. Yeah. Spicy ramen twice is not. Yeah. It's not. I think you learn, but you don't.

Starting point is 00:11:41 You forget. That's why you have more than one baby, right? You forget about the whole. That's right. That's right. Do it over. Okay. So for funzies, what do most moms like want to eat after birth?

Starting point is 00:12:04 Like what do you find it's like the most common request? Oh, sushi and a Jimmy John sub. Those are like the most common things because you know, they say like, you can't have lunch meat or whatever in your pregnancy and raw fish. And so I have people say, my husband's going to get me a sushi boat after this or, you know, Jimmy John's sub. They want the lunch meat. They want the raw fish.

Starting point is 00:12:29 Yeah, I always like, I really romanticized that like post meal, like after the marathon of birth. And I was like dreaming of like someone was going to bring me champagne. My husband was going to go pick me up like a medium rare cheeseburger from like my favorite burger place. Oh, yeah. And that was like, that was in my birth plan. Like no joke. Yeah. But once baby was there, like I hemorrhaged both pregnancies.

Starting point is 00:12:55 So I had lost so much blood. I was like, oh, delirious. I had, you know, felt nauseous. I was, I was not ready for a cheeseburger and wine. And so I think the first thing I had with my, with my first son was like a croissant with like jam on it. And that was like, but that tasted like like Monde from heaven. Like it tasted so good. Yeah. Because I was just so hungry at that point. But yeah, you have to just kind of see like I, knowing what it felt like after birth, I can't imagine craving raw fish, even if I otherwise normally would. I would just be like, that is a no for me right now.

Starting point is 00:13:35 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a beautiful explanation of kind of what it's like to plan labor and birth because in the book I talk about that planning your birth is kind of like a surprise party for someone you've never met. So you may think that you want something, but it's also important to give yourself grace if you don't want that. Like I've had plenty of people put in their birth plan that they want. you know, their partner to rub their back or, you know, do their hair or whatever. And they're like,

Starting point is 00:14:02 don't touch me. Don't touch me. It's okay. You know, just kind of going with the flow of what you, what you're feeling in then and then and now. Yeah, that is absolutely my experience. Okay. So, you know, here on this podcast, we often talk about the dangers of diet culture and wellness culture. And something that often kind of comes up in these conversations is this concept of an appeal to nature's fallacy. And this is essentially the assumption that anything manmade like medication or seed oils or whatever it might be is bad and anything natural, like an herbal supplement or like beef tallow or whatever is good. And I love how inclusive you are in the book in helping, you know, meet people where they are in their birth plans and desires. Even, you know, if they

Starting point is 00:14:52 explicitly reject kind of medical or quote unquote, like unnatural. interventions like an epidural or an induction. And that's so great, of course, especially if everything goes well. But in sticky situations when it might become like life or death, and you have to very quickly convince mom that perhaps the unnatural intervention that she's so desperately wants to avoid may save her or her baby's life, how do you do that without losing your shit and actually getting them on board. So my job is never to convince people. It's only to give everyone the information that they need to make their own decisions. And that's been probably the hardest part about being a labor delivery nurse is because I have to protect people's

Starting point is 00:15:44 decisions even if I don't agree with them. And as long as I have given them the risks and benefits of everything of of both accepting or declining something even if something bad happens I have to be neutral in that and that's really hard it's really hard so I think that also there's a lot of people who come in very afraid that they're going to be coerced into doing something yeah and it can be a very hard very fine line between you know real information and coerce and coercion. Yeah. And I never want to be somebody who is making someone feel like she made me do that or like I had no choice in the matter.

Starting point is 00:16:32 But there are sometimes where we're in a really sticky situation. I need to give you the down and dirty of what's happening right now. And it can be very scary. But the way that I kind of help those situations to go a little bit better is that in the beginning of our process together, I like to talk about the things that can come up, the things that can happen. Like 90% of babies at some point during labor will have some sort of deceleration in their heart rate. And it doesn't mean that something's bad or wrong. It just happens. But if those continue, what kind of options do we have? Or if someone comes in and they have gestational diabetes,

Starting point is 00:17:17 I talk about, you know, how that can affect their baby's lungs when the baby comes out and the things that may happen. And just because it happens and it feels very scary doesn't mean that I don't, that I'm not prepared for that. So I like to talk about these situations ahead of time as much as I can to kind of gauge where they are and their comfort level with each thing so that I can best advocate for them in those situations. But it can be very difficult in really sticky situations to know that, you know, whatever they decide, I'm going to abide by, even if it means that something happens. I mean, because you can't force anyone into care. Of course. Yeah. And medicine is all about risks and benefits and trying to balance that. And obviously, those risks and benefits are going to look different for each patient. And I love that you, you know, the point you're really trying to get across in this book is that at the end of the day, health professionals are the guides. They guide with the facts and knowledge is power.

Starting point is 00:18:22 But you ultimately have to do that risk, risk, benefit analysis yourself. But I'm curious, speaking to women who have subscribed wholeheartedly to, you know, an all natural birth. They don't want any interventions, no matter what. You know, I've read some of the stories in your book. What do you feel is the underlying fear behind this idea of like having to have an epidural or having to start potocin to induce or giving baby formula because your milk has not come in? So I think that when people have any kind of desires for their labor and birth, it comes from what they need as a human, right? So, and most of the time, labor and birth goes better when we don't mess with anything. Interventions are there for when something goes different, right? And there's this fear that's a very logical fear because it does happen of having bad things happen because of interventions.

Starting point is 00:19:32 And I'm here to tell you it happens all the time. But I think that the underlying part of that is protect. protection from intervention, yes, but also protection from bad things that can happen from intervention. And I think that it's important that when you're planning your labor or your birth, giving yourself grace to work with new information, I'm not against. And so some things that people can ask if they feel like, you know, oh, I think everything is going fine.

Starting point is 00:20:05 Why are they offering me this? is you can ask like what has changed? What has changed in my labor or birth that you think that this is the recommendation now? What can happen if I don't do this? What can happen if I do do this? So that people can make the best decisions for them in the moment. In the book, I have a situation where someone had planned for a no intervention birth and then things started to not go how she thought.

Starting point is 00:20:32 And so there is this. There's this feeling of wanting to protect that situation from outside intervention in order to protect from further intervention like the cascade of interventions, but there's also freedom in working with new information, giving yourself grace to adapt to a new situation, rather than holding tightly to something that is taking you further away from your dream birth. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:05 I remember reading about the cascade of interventions and that also, you know, scaring me. It's, you know, I think, I guess one of the questions that I have is, do you think that the literal base fear of this cascade of interventions is I don't want to cut across my stomach? Like, I don't want to C-section. Or do you think it is the base fear of like, I don't want to be robbed of what was supposed to. to be this natural, intuitive experience, which now leaves me to feel like a failure as a woman and mom. I think it can be both equally, honestly. I mean, I'll ask people a lot of times whenever I first meet them, what are you most afraid of happening today? And most of the time when I ask that question, it is a C-section. And so I will do everything in my power to protect against that.

Starting point is 00:22:03 And sometimes it does happen in a way that they don't want to happen. But if they are able to leave that situation, knowing that they gave it everything that they got and they were able to adapt to new information, making the best decisions that they can for themselves, I feel like that helps to decrease some of that guilt or trauma or disappointment from their birth. I had a girl recently who wanted a vaginal birth after Cesarian, which I love. I absolutely love. And so she felt that like the cascade of interventions last time had kind of led her to have this experience that she did not want. And so she wanted to go into spontaneous labor this time. She absolutely did. And she made every decision along the way that should have led her to a vaginald.

Starting point is 00:22:56 birth and when days and days and days happen and it didn't happen that way and she ended up needing a C-section, she knew that she gave it everything that she had and that she wasn't leaving that experience saying, well, like, well, what if I waited a little bit longer? Or what if I, you know, she felt very confident in her decision to get a C-section at the end because she had followed her own intuition and was able to give herself grace with each of the decisions that she made during her labor. Right. Yeah, no, I think that's amazing. And so unfortunately, you and I are both health care providers. And I have found since COVID, there has been an enormous increase in distrust of health care providers. And obviously, you know, government kind of medical organizations as well,

Starting point is 00:23:52 which means that I often see a lot of discussion about this. I don't want to, I don't know if it's a conspiracy. I don't know if it's true. So I'm kind of asking you that doctors are kind of pushing, so to speak, more interventions so that they can bill more so that they can get in and out faster. They can schedule these C-sections, blah, blah, blah. You know, so for the average person reading these things in their mom group, what, what do you have to? to say about that. I think that it's important to find a health care team that you trust. Because if you go into this with a doctor's office or a team that you are like, I really don't feel like I know these

Starting point is 00:24:37 people well enough to take care of me, that can be scary. And now I want to preface this by saying that there will be people who don't have a choice in their team. And that is valid. And I understand that. can be very difficult to trust people when you have never met them before or you don't know about them. But I think that there's some questions that you can ask to kind of get your gauge on that. One of them is their C-section rate. Now, I think that both having a C-section rate that is very, very high can be a red flag, but also having a C-section rate that is extremely low, can, which just sounds crazy, can also be a red flag

Starting point is 00:25:24 because you can have a provider who is so quick to cut, like if anything goes differently, their automatic response to that is immediate C-section now, which can cause a cascade of problems in someone's life, fertility-wise, or, you know, because a C-section is a big deal, right? So it leads, it can lead to things like, Placina acreda, percrita, in creta, where the placenta can grow into the uterus and through.

Starting point is 00:25:51 And so, like, there's things that can happen from C-sections, infections, you know, blood cluck. Like, there's a lot of things that can happen. So it is a major surgery. I do not want to downplay that at all. But at the same time, you can have a provider who is so worried about having a low C-section rate that they, I don't want to say ignore, but they delay intervening in situations. that need it, right? So I think that having a provider that intervenes when appropriate instead of intervenes immediately all the time or not at all.

Starting point is 00:26:28 I think that having a provider who is balanced in those things can kind of prevent you from feeling like you're just a cow in a shoot, you know, or someone who is not getting the care that they need because someone is. worried about their C-section rate. So you can ask like things like C-section rate, a NICU rate, like if you have somebody who is not intervening when they should, they might have a low, low C-section rate, but a really high NICU rate. So like what is, you know, there's a trade-off for anything that, any kind of rate that's really high or really low, there's a trade-off of that. So low C-section rate can mean increase.

Starting point is 00:27:15 Niki rate. Maybe not. You know, maybe there's some, there's some providers out there who's like, it's the perfect low C-section rate. Everybody does great. Yeah, just got luck. Yeah, but then you can have somebody who's got our super high C-section rate and, you know, that can lead to problems later.

Starting point is 00:27:31 So I think that having a team that you trust and knowing that, like, you can interview providers. You can ask them these questions. And I want to say that there are people who won't have this opportunity. There are maternity care deserts. There are places that don't have the kind of care that they would need. There's people there that are limited by their choice due to insurance or something like that. So I want to make sure that I preface that if you're in a place where you can interview people, that you do have the choice.

Starting point is 00:28:05 And that's an awesome thing to do. Talking to your friends who have had babies, who felt cared for, who felt dismissed, who felt that they were rushed, who felt, you know, like, what, providers are going to take the time to listen to you and that kind of stuff. And even if you get to the hospital and there is a doctor on call who you've never met before and you're scared or you don't feel like you're getting the care that you need, there are ways that you can advocate for yourself in labor or ask questions. You can even fire like a nurse. You know what I'm saying? Like if you don't feel like you're getting the care that you deserve, there's always things that you can do. Okay, just last question here, Jen. What would you?

Starting point is 00:28:56 you tell moms who perhaps feel like they have failed because some aspect of their birth plan did not pan out or who are terrified of like the perceived shame that they may feel if they can't do childbirth the kind of natural way? What parting words can you maybe leave us all with to start healing? Because this is something that I would say most moms that I speak to feel some kind of pain over their birth story. I think that going into it with grace, right? Going into it with grace for yourself, for your body, for your baby, and knowing that none of y'all have ever done this before. Even if you've had babies before, you ain't never had this baby before, you know? Right. So giving yourself grace going into it. And then afterwards knowing that there's no easy way to get a baby out.

Starting point is 00:29:53 There's no, like every, no one comes out of this unscathes completely, you know? So there is going to be situations where, you know, you feel like, I wonder if I did this differently or, you know, however, if you were able to adapt to new information, making the best decision that you can with the information that you have, you can leave that experience knowing that you did make the best decision with the information that you have. information that you had. Even if things go different than you thought, even if things go completely off the rails that this baby and this birth is completely different than any birth that you've ever had, even if you've had babies before. And if you are struggling with feeling guilt or shame or trauma or disappointment over your birth story, there are resources available to you. and don't just assume that like, oh, this is just how it needs to be because it happened. I mean, so there's an organization called Postpartum Support International or PSI,

Starting point is 00:31:00 and they have wonderful resources if you're dealing with birth trauma where you can talk it out. You can kind of get clarity and closure on things because I think that there's a lot of birth trauma and guilt and disappointment over not understanding what happened. Yes. Right. Because you're going into a situation where you only know what the, what you felt during, right? But finding information about the medical things that went on, why things were recommended, why things, why you decided on things can help you kind of give yourself grace and process things that maybe didn't feel so clear in the moment. Yeah. Because it's all happening so fast. You're hormonal. You're scared. You know, there's beefing things. Like it's so over-stimbing. and you people are yelling. I mean, yes, it's very hard to feel like you're making a really, you know, clear cut decision in that moment without really being able to have time to process everything. So I think that's to unpack it after the fact is really, really helpful. So,

Starting point is 00:32:07 oh, love this. Thank you so much, Jen, for coming on to chat. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for everything that you do. You know, your empathy in the this world is just such a shining light, especially right now in this world that we are living in. So I wish you so much luck on this tour. The book is amazing. Thank you so much. Don't check. Don't forget to check out Jen's book, Birth Fives. It is online and in store this May 5th, correct? That's right. That's right. Thank you so so much. I really appreciate it. I just know this conversation is going to feel so cathartic to so many of you listening right now. But you know, something that really stuck with me from this conversation is how much birth mirrors our relationship with food.

Starting point is 00:32:55 You know, in both of these cases, we are often told as women to optimize and control it. You know, with our five-page birth or meal plans and these hard sets of rules, but at the same time to, quote-unquote, naturalize something that our body was, quote-unquote, designed to know how to do. And God forbid, we need some kind of guidance or support or to devise. from the plan, whether it's, you know, eating carbs or taking rest or medication or formula or interventions, basically anything that we were told we don't need or we should not do, we have somehow failed in our roles as good women. I don't know who needs to hear this, but hard rules and restriction, whether related to food or pain relief or rest or support, has never made anyone stronger in the long run. It has never actually put us in line

Starting point is 00:33:47 with our body's true wisdom. So if you are preparing for a childbirth or looking back with sadness on an experience of the past, I want you to remember that you do not need to justify your choices or your outcomes. You don't have to earn your birth story.

Starting point is 00:34:06 And you don't owe anyone an explanation for how you got your baby here. You're allowed to change your plan. You're allowed to survive the thing without romanticizing it. You're allowed to lean on unnatural supports that make natural processes possible. You know, there's no moral hierarchy when it comes to birth. You know, we're just humans doing the best we can with the information and fear and love and unpredictability that we are handed. And honestly, having to juggle all of those things is one of the first of many that we're going to have to make as moms.

Starting point is 00:34:44 So like with food, a quick reminder that birth doesn't need to be 100% quote unquote natural to be meaningful and beautiful. And you do not need to suffer to be strong. But I'm just going to leave it at that for now. I want to again thank everybody for listening. And a big thank you again to Jen for helping me bite back against wellness culture. Definitely check out both of our books and I'll be linking to both of them in the show notes. So signing off with Science and Sass. I'm Abby Sharp.

Starting point is 00:35:13 Thanks for listening.

Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - Planned, Pure & Perfect? The Modern Pressure to OPTIMIZE Natural Birth (and What Happens When Plans Change) with Jen Hamilton

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