Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - The CBT Mindset HACK to Support Sustainable Weight Loss (& Why “More Discipline” Isn’t the Answer) with Brian Baumal

Starting point is 00:00:00 The way I draw it out, shame leads to quick, leads to perfectionism, leads to failure. Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abby Sharp, where I dismantled die culture rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. Diaculture has really taught us all that the secret to losing weight is simply more discipline, more rules, and more urgency. But what if that belief is actually the thing holding you back? My guest today is Brian Baumell, a Toronto-based psychotherapist who specializes in a structured form of CBT for weight management and restrictive eating disorders.

Starting point is 00:00:52 His work teaches patients how to plan without punishment, face numbers without panic, and remain present even when progress feels imperfect. Today we're going to be talking about the most common weight loss beliefs that are holding you back from meeting your goals, how diet culture's emphasis on speed and urgency keeps us trapped in the diet cycle, how to use slip-ups or setbacks in a positive way, and how to use the scale as a tool that doesn't make or break your whole day. Also, a quick reminder that if you are on a weight loss journey and you're looking for a nutrition piece to accompany the psychology piece that we're going to be,

Starting point is 00:01:33 be learning about today, definitely check out my best-selling new book, The Hunger Cushing Combow Method, which is now in stores and online in the link in bio. All right, friends, let's dive in. Well, hi, Brian. Thank you so much for coming in. It is my pleasure. Happy nice to meet you. Now, I've really aligned so well with your approach to weight loss management. Absolutely. It's something we talk about here on by back. It's something I've talked about in my book, The Hunger Cushing Combo method. To set the stage, I was wondering if you can kind of tell us, about some common beliefs about weight loss that you see your clients come in with, that you feel prevents them from making meaningful long-term behavior changes.

Starting point is 00:02:15 Sure. Actually, I'm really glad you asked that because I have found that the biggest belief and barrier to long-term weight loss is people's expectation around how quickly they want to lose it or what their expectations are around speed. And I have developed a lot of, a full program of cognitive behavioral therapy around cutting back speed expectations around weight loss. Yeah, that's exactly what we want to talk about here because I was really struck by, you know, your central argument of that diet culture frames urgency as discipline. And I'd never really thought about that before, but I was like, that is so, so true. Can you kind of elaborate on what you mean by that and just also some of the diet culture messages that we see in real life that, emphasize that. Absolutely. So first of all, I can I can tell you, and I do not mind sharing personally,

Starting point is 00:03:10 that I suffered from exercise bulimia about 22 years ago, which then morphed almost on one day, on the turn of a dime, into binge eating disorder. Yep. And so I can just use my own experience, along with an amalgamation of my patients. When you are in the height of a restrictive eating disorder, you're thinking you're doing great, you're doing what society want, you're getting a lot of affirmation around your progress. If you have a lack of self-esteem or self-confidence, people can look at your body and you can go, well, at least I'm doing great with this. I may not be doing great in other areas of my life, but I'm doing great with this.

Starting point is 00:03:55 And diet culture, if you don't know you have an eating disorder, can kill you in that case because the mass culture says, keep doing what you. you're doing. The only problem is that the person on an eating disorder at that point is on a runaway train. Yeah. And it becomes near impossible to turn it around until you get extremely restrictively ill. Yep. I can appreciate that. I was the same situation. I also had an eating disorder in my late teens and it was exactly like that. Lots of affirmations, lots of validation until those was validating words turned into, oh, like, I'm scared for you now. Yes.

Starting point is 00:04:39 Now, there are a lot of bio-psychological, psychosocial factors that have to align that got us to the place of restriction because there are many other people who can get on this runway train and eventually your body says, no, we've got to stop and we're going to start intaking calories just to nourish and live. And that is how people can switch over to binge eating disorder. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:05:08 And, you know, I think you and I both know that diet culture loves to emphasize and these massive behavioral shifts, these, you know, no sugar, no carbs, like, you know, only eat between the hours of 12 and 3. Like, like, what happens neurologically and behaviorally when we try to overall, overhaul our diet this extreme? So what happens? with, you know, intermittent fasting or keto is those can lead to full-blown eating disorders if you're not careful with them. They are certainly symptoms of full-blown eating disorders.

Starting point is 00:05:48 When I, I will talk a little bit about my practice. When I work with people, it is possible maybe that they could implement some of those things. But here's what I say to them. I say, if we do this and if you get a full-blown eating disorder or if you stop after three months, that's a treatment failure on my part. If I kick you into disordered eating behaviors, report me to my college. I mean, it's hopefully not and hopefully I don't get to to that, but we don't, I don't want anyone worse off from seeing me than than they were coming in. And there is diets. cause eating disorders. And again, I will use myself. At the height of my exercise bulimia, I was eating 800 calories a day, working out twice a day in secret because I didn't want

Starting point is 00:06:46 anyone to go, he's kind of doing a lot there. I didn't want that take, but that started, that started about 18 months before with a New Year's resolution. And my wife at the time and I were struggling with our weight. And we had just this bowl of candy, you know, wrapped candies and caramels in our living room. And we said, hey, you know what? As a New Year's resolution, let's just get rid of this. That was how it started. And then it was things like, hey, we're doing pretty well with this. You know, our parents have been encouraging us to join a gym. I think we can do that. And that's how it starts. It gets progressively where, like I say, I call it a runaway train. And you don't find yourself one day on a runaway train. You've got to figure out where you

Starting point is 00:07:36 want to go, book your ticket, pack your bags, go to the train station, stuff. All these steps in between before you get to a full blown eating disorder. But every step along the way contributes to it. And certainly restricting foods. and fasting, any diet has the potential to kick off a full-blown eating disorder. And so how do folks who want to manage their weight for various reasons? Maybe they're on a GLP1. Maybe they are trying a keto diet or various. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to create a calorie deficit, as we know.

Starting point is 00:08:13 How does that person evaluate whether this is going to be a safe endeavor for them or they are at higher risk of becoming someone with an eating disorder? What I'm going to say is I actually think it's very complex. And I want to give empowering messages to people I absolutely do. But in my practice, I could spend two or three one hour sessions just determining what is going on with their relationship with food and body before I make any sort of recommendation. So I want people to understand that it's, at least I believe it's complex. At the same point in time, I'll give you some symptoms that you could look out for. If you find yourself getting on this hamster wheel of increasing weight loss, weight management, weighing yourself multiple times a day, if the diet keeps getting more and more restrictive, if you start hating parts of your body, I mean, actively.

Starting point is 00:09:24 hating parts of your body. Oh, geez, I've got a little bit of a flab. I wish I could just cut it out with a knife. Having people come up and saying, you know, I think you're doing a little bit too much in all of this. The thoughts around weight loss become obsessive for you. where all you're thinking about is what's my next meal, how many calories can I eat, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And the urgency piece obviously fits into this really well because, again, like diet culture, this has been the expectation that, you know, we have to push it farther, you know,

Starting point is 00:10:06 more, faster, harder. You know, and I think that, you know, from my perspective, something I talk about often is that one of the downfalls of this urgency message is this scare. mentality that we get put in when we're on a diet, where, you know, our bodies will fight tooth and nail when we're in a state of deprivation with all these different compensatory mechanisms. And psychologically, that's when you just like you obsess, you binge, you get out of control. And then you interpret that as a failure. You know, I'm messed up. I'm always wrong. I failed again. I blew it. How can folks move? Because people are going to have setbacks. How can people move from this state of. I blew it. I'm so weak to what can I learn from this? Sure. So I'll tell you a little bit about the method that I that I use.

Starting point is 00:10:56 And if I evaluate people to go on this method, which is a cognitive behavioral therapy approach, here's what I do. So first of all, I tell people directly, we're going to slow their expectations down about weight loss. So if they're generally in agreement with that, we can move forward with it.

Starting point is 00:11:16 And here's what I say. In Canada, we've got about three weeks or a month right now before Victoria Day long weekend. And somebody could say, I've got a month, I've got 20 pounds to lose. That's five pounds a week because I really want to show up to this Victoria Day party light. Okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to do it. Five pounds a week, here I go. And that happens a lot with people. Whenever I go to this example, they often go, yeah, I do something similar to that.

Starting point is 00:11:44 Now, that's a very aggressive goal, very aggressive. I'm sure we haven't talked about this, but I'm sure you would agree that generally a one to two pound, a weight loss is both medically, nutritionally, psychologically, the weight to go. But what ends up happening is they set this overly aggressive goal for themselves. And of course, life gets in the way. They could get sick, they could have a family issue, they could sustain an injury and can't go to gym, anything could happen. So one screw up or one life getting in the way, someone says,

Starting point is 00:12:21 well, I'm not meet my five pound goal this week. That's it. It's done. And sometimes people blame themselves for not being strong enough. Like you broke your leg and somehow this is still your fault. But anyhow, what we have is quick leads to perfectionism leads to failure. So quick perfectionism failure and I draw that out for people and I say what we have to do is get rid of the quick because when we get rid of the quick we get rid of the perfectionism and the failure but here's the thing um I'm a psychotherapist and what I want to say is the quick perfectionism failure thing that's not psychological as I was developing this I actually realized that I had learned this same theory back in university decades ago in managerial microeconomics

Starting point is 00:13:12 I don't want to get into it, but the professor said, basically said, if you want to motivate your team, don't set a goal that's so sky high because they're going to fail or they're going to stop after the first failure. So that quick perfectionism failure thing is not psychology. Here's where the psychology comes in. What causes us to want to do things quickly? I'll just put it to you. What? I mean, a goal, this expectation that we're going to look a certain way on a specific date. Yep. What happened. The reason why you want to look that way on a specific date for the Victoria Day long weekend for wedding is because of shame. Shame. That's the psychology in it.

Starting point is 00:13:57 So let me draw it out for you. What people really want to avoid on this Victoria Day weekend is the insensitive uncle who comes up to, he goes, haven't seen, oh, you still got a gut, you know, have you tried Ozempick? Right. No pizza for you on this. Or coming in and feeling, damn it, I'm still the heaviest person here. Or trying on your summer clothes before Victoria Day long weekend and going, crap, I need to, I need to go out to fast fashion and buy more. And those instances or those behaviors and encounters are immensely shameful.

Starting point is 00:14:40 So what we're doing is avoiding the shame and all that. So the way I draw it out, shame leads to quick, leads to perfectionism, leads to failure. Yeah, that is, I love that you've just kind of like mapped it out there because as a recovering perfectionist, You know, I'm firstborn daughter, Taipei, you know, people pleasing, all the things. I mean, it really was a perfect storm for an eating disorder. We know that there is such a heavy link between perfectionism and disorder eating and eating disorders. But yeah, I absolutely say that. And this is why, you know, I often talk about the importance of, you know, seeing our behaviors,

Starting point is 00:15:37 our eating behaviors through an objective lens, like clocking, for example, let's say you rush out the door and you have a piece of toast because you're busy and you're rushing out and you realize, you know, an hour later you're starving again. So you get into the communal donuts in the staff room. And, you know, rather than again seeing that as I'm such a failure, like rather than moralizing that constantly and then thinking, oh, I'm just going to eat all the donuts because whatever diet starts again tomorrow, I already failed, saying, okay, what would happen if tomorrow I added some yogurt to that toast? maybe I stay full or longer. My energy's better. Like seeing that as just data to collect like a scientist, removes that moral panic around the food choices that stops that cycle, binge, repent, and repeat cycle that we often get trapped.

Starting point is 00:16:27 I'm going to say two things. First of all, my pithy response to that is I say, if you recover from a mistake, have you really made a mistake? But the cognitive behavioral program I use asks people to plan and try. track their meals in the following way that sort of addresses this messing up, quote unquote, messing up. There are four basic elements to how people eat, what they eat, when they eat, where they eat, how much they eat, four elements. As I start them on this program, I only want them to focus on the when and the where, not the what or the how much. So in your example, somebody is rushing out the door. They only have a piece of toast and they know that,

Starting point is 00:17:18 you know, it is history. They're going to wind up having donuts in the snack room. I start by saying, okay, you eat 8 a.m. and every 8 a.m. you always, despite your best intentions, you only manage to have one piece of toast and then you have three donuts and plan for that. Huh? Huh? Plan for. Start planning for that. And then, as you've mentioned, one of the things around the planning and tracking is gathering data around, around all of this. The other thing, too, is that people, quote unquote, screw up around this what they're planning. And boy, I wish I could have oatmeal and everything like that. As they talk to me about their tracking and their planning, I focus more on the shame aspect of things. So I say, it must be difficult for you to have to live like this.

Starting point is 00:18:08 and it seems very difficult to make a change around it. And I leave it there. And what ends up happening is after around three to eight weeks of this planning and tracking, they gather data and they begin to say, you know what, I think I'm starting to see a way through on this instead of the toast, or I could add some yogurt to the toast. But it is led the what and the how much is led by them after repeat. failures or some failures and some successes and gathering data and having me gently

Starting point is 00:18:45 focus on the shame aspect of things. My gosh, things aren't changing for you. What is going on? Do you want to just stop working with me? Do you want to run a diet? Again, do you just want to hit the treadmill? Do you think you're a failure in all of this? So I'm focusing on the psychological shame aspect. we are reducing the quick which eliminates the perfectionism and failure. They are gathering data for themselves. And if they can do that, we have begun to establish a much more normal relationship with food. And then I become neutral on what they do to continue that progress.

Starting point is 00:19:31 Or if they want to engage in some sort of other eating plant, I could turn them over to you. They can do whatever they want. You know, I think about this often because I talk about, I've talked to a lot of other dietitians and health care providers. And one thing I think most of us can agree on is that folks who have been dieting their whole lives, they know the what to do. They know what is healthy eating or how to create a calorie deficit. They know that part. But the disconnect between the what to do and like why I can't just do it is what they're struggling. with. So it sounds to me like that is where the therapy comes in. That is where the CBT comes in.

Starting point is 00:20:13 Yes, that that that is it exactly. We have to recognize that failure is not failure in recovery. So when I, so I again, I had, I had exercise bulimia overnight that turned into binge eating disorder for about nine years. And when I was ready to tackle my binge eating. eating disorder, I started planning it out. I said, okay, so I lost a lot of weight. I didn't even know I'd exercise, believe me, but I lost a lot of weight before. And I said, what do I have to do differently from that point in time? And honestly, my first thought was, well, you worked out twice a day at 800 calories. It didn't work. Because that mean you have to go three times a day, 600 calories. I'm like, and that's diet culture getting the first crack at my behavior. And I had enough sense to go

Starting point is 00:21:08 that makes no sense. And then my brain was like, well, what if I go easier? What if I go the opposite? I'm like, oh my God, easier. Why didn't I even think of that? In my own experience, what happened as I was doing all of this and started was I was going to the gym three times a day doing light treadmill. And then two weeks after that, I could not motivate myself to the gym going to the gym.

Starting point is 00:21:37 going to the gym like, damn it, it's happened again. You have spent nine months planning this out, choosing the right gym. You are at risk of a whole bunch of metabolic conditions, and you're not even going to the gym after two weeks. Damn it, damn it, damn it. I will never forget this. A voice from the back of my head came up and said, no, you idiot, you're just taking a break.

Starting point is 00:22:07 And within four hours, I was back at the gym. Now that's not going to work for every, that I don't want to have people do that. But it's a matter of going easier on yourself. Oh my God, do I actually need a break now? Okay. Maybe, maybe I do. And I was just amazed as I said that that counterthought allowed me to sit on my couch for a couple of hours, do what I needed to do. And I'm like, yeah, I'm ready to go back.

Starting point is 00:22:39 Right. I love that. I think these reframes are so valuable to get us out of that black and way to all or nothing thinking that diet culture really does promote. And that's the key to sustainable behavior changes, which, you know, that's the goal. The goal is not just to lose, you know, certain amount of weight for Victoria Day. Oh, God. It needs to be what can I do for the rest of my life? If you think that you're never going to take a day off from the gym, then, you know, or you can't take a day off from the gym, that program's not right for you. And so I love that reframe. The last thing I kind of want to touch on is, you know, a gentler approach to the scale because the scale is so morally charged, right? Like it can make or break people's day depending on what it says when they wake up in the morning. How do you recommend folks use a scale when it comes to their weight loss? I may have. I may have.

Starting point is 00:23:34 a very interesting take on this, but what I tell people is use it so that it doesn't drive you crazy, is the main thing. And here are some examples that I give is I was actively managing my weight and overcoming binge eating disorder. That was about an 18-month period. I only weighed myself four times over that period. Why? Because I knew if I stepped on that scale, it would have derailed It absolutely would have derailed me. But what I tell people is, if that's going to happen to you, avoid the scale. I work with a lot of engineers, accountants, computer scientists, even physicians, and they say, I live my life by numbers.

Starting point is 00:24:23 When I step on that scale, for me, that's data. I just want to know my progress. There's nothing, like they will say, there's nothing disordered about it. I need the data. I want to know. And I say, so you're not, this isn't going to cause you to fail. This isn't going to cause you to get angry. It's not going to ruin your day. So I check all of that with them. And if they say, nope, I just need it as a data point. It's what I use. Fine. Way yourself. Way yourself. Another thing that I do, this is that along with the CBT that I have, I will ask people if they

Starting point is 00:25:02 want to weigh themselves and tell me what their weight is each session. Now here's what I say about it because obviously it's very sensitive for people. I say this is exposure therapy and part of slowing you down is in this weight loss journey is having you accept where you are and face your fear a little bit and they go okay they start go okay I'm buying into that and then here's the promise I make to them. I say, when we talk about your weight, I'm going to ask again, how does it make you feel? What was it like stepping on that scale? Did you want to do it three times a day? How do you feel about being the weight that you're at? You didn't lose any weight after a really great week. What do you think? But here's what I say. I said, those are the questions that I'm asking. And then I say to them,

Starting point is 00:25:53 if you ever hear me say, yay, you lost five pounds or boo, you're up three. I say, I say, them, hit the exit button on that zoom and fire me on the spot. I am not tracking your weight. This is exposure therapy. I am asking you questions that will neutralize your relationship with the scale. And if they find they can weigh after that, they can find they can weigh themselves every day. Yeah, I love that. I think it's so valuable. I love that approach to it. I love all exposure therapy. It is really, it really shaped my recovery. So with all my fear foods and things like that, like it was so critical. So I, I love this. I really do encourage folks to work with a therapist whenever possible when they're struggling with their relationship of food, you know, on a

Starting point is 00:26:45 weight loss journey, off a weight loss journey, trying to recover from a disordered eating or eating disorders. This is so helpful. Brian, where can folks who are listening find you? They could just Google my name. I don't have a social media presence yet. So my first name is Brian with an eye. Last name is Balmell, spelled B-A-U-M-A-L. And my website is Aleva-S-Cycotherapy. A-L-I-V-A-Sycotherapy.com. And that's where they can get all the information about me.

Starting point is 00:27:17 And of course, we will be leaving links to all of that in the show notes. So thank you, Brian, so much. I really learned a lot. I really appreciate it. Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you very much. Oh my gosh, this was such an insightful conversation. I think one of the takeaways that I got out of this conversation is that weight loss struggles aren't just about knowing what to eat or having enough willpower. They're about how deeply our behaviors are tied to how we see ourselves. Because the truth is, our eating habits aren't just random. So research suggests that our diet-related identity, so whether we see ourselves, as someone who is good or bad or disciplined or out of control with food can strongly shape the food choices that we make day to day, even if you want a different outcome. So, for example, if you identify as someone who has no self-control around carbs, then the moment you eat that one cookie, your brain goes, well, this is just what I do. and it becomes harder to not finish the whole box.

Starting point is 00:28:29 Our behaviors aren't just about physical hunger or knowledge or an external set of rules that we've been told to follow. They're being filtered through that very important identity lens. But when diet culture hands us a rigid set of rules that require us to act like a completely different person overnight, that creates real friction. And that's often why people feel like they're constantly starting over. It's not a lack of discipline.

Starting point is 00:29:01 It's that the approach never actually fit our life or our core identity in the first place. And what's even more interesting is that successful, sustainable change tends to come from shifting that identity over time. So instead of trying to become more strict or more perfect, research suggests that people who, who maintain weight loss progress long term, often move towards seeing themselves as someone who is flexible, self-aware, and capable of making supportive choices without extremes.

Starting point is 00:29:37 So the goal shouldn't be to become more disciplined, as diet culture may suggest, it should be to become someone who doesn't need as much discipline to take care of themselves. That is where the real freedom is. And ironically, that's also what makes the habits actually stick. But that's all that I have for you guys today, friends. If you found these tips and suggestions helpful,

Starting point is 00:30:04 I would love if you would check out my bestselling book, The Hunger Crushing Combot Method to complement them. And please do subscribe to this podcast. Leave me a little comment on this episode with your thoughts and give me a five-star review because it really does help me bite back against diet culture online. Signing off with Science and Sass. I'm Abby Sharp.

Starting point is 00:30:26 Thanks for listening.

Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - The CBT Mindset HACK to Support Sustainable Weight Loss (& Why “More Discipline” Isn’t the Answer) with Brian Baumal

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