Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - “You’re Glorifying Obesity” and Other Fatphobic Lies about Body Positivity with Lauren Hope Krass of the Good Bodies Podcast

Starting point is 00:00:00 I get so tired of people talking about like, oh, the pressure to be thin. Like it is not the pressure to be thin. It is the pressure to not be fat. Like we need to keep this in the conversation that it is anti-fat bias, it's fat phobic. Like this is the cornerstone of diet culture, people. Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abbey Sharp,

Starting point is 00:00:21 where I dismantle diet culture rules, call it the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. We are back and I want to wish everybody a very, very, very happy new year. I hope you all had a restful and joyful holiday season. I just got back from a little warm holiday with the kiddos down south, so definitely was so nice to get a little bit of sun before coming back to the darkness that is Canada. No offense to my Capricorns and Aquarius friends, but January is not my favorite month.

Starting point is 00:01:04 And not just because of like the shitty weather here in Canada, but because it is the month when diet culture messages become obnoxiously loud. And most of you guys know that I'm like vehemently against the whole new year, new you mantra that we will be inevitably hearing multiple times over the next few weeks. And I think just like being online at this time of year can be very triggering for a lot of folks who have been working on healing their relationship with their body and food. So, you know, if that sounds like you,

Starting point is 00:01:39 maybe consider taking a little pause on your social media scrolling routine for like the next month or so, and just sticking to audiobooks or podcasts like this week's amazing episode. How'd you guys like that plug? All right, well my guest today is the hilarious and super smart Lauren Hope Krass.

Starting point is 00:02:03 Lauren is a comedian, a contributor to Betches Media, and the co-host of the Good Bodies podcast, formally called Diet Starts Tomorrow. She's also a body positivity advocate and a fat activist, and I am honestly so excited to have her on our show. So today we'll be unpacking common misunderstandings and criticisms of the body positivity movement, we're going to be chatting about how weight loss drugs like ozempic are affecting the fat acceptance community, we're going to talk about how straight-sized folks can act as allies to their larger body friends, and we're going to be talking some hard truths about thin privilege. No matter where you are in your body kindness journey, this is an essential listen anytime of

Starting point is 00:02:53 year, but especially as we are wading in some toxic New Year's resolution waters. Now, quick disclaimer, we will be briefly talking about disordered eating in today's episode, and my general reminder that the information in this episode is never a replacement for personalized healthcare. Also, I would love it if you would follow or subscribe to the podcast, and also give me a little five-star review and a comment, because as a new podcast, it really, really helps me out. All right, let's get into it.

Starting point is 00:03:34 All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Lauren. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. I was really excited when your people reached out because I was like, oh, I know who she is. I was like, I love her Instagram. Like, it's great. Oh, I love it. And I love good bodies. I send it to so many of my friends and family.

Starting point is 00:03:54 So thank you so much for what you do. Oh my God. Thanks for telling people. That means a lot. And you're welcome. Thanks for all you. I love it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:04:02 So, okay, let's get into it. Talk to me, like, take me back to the beginning. Talk to me about your history with dieting and your body growing up. Sure. So I've always been a fat babe, okay? Always been plus size. I feel like my family was definitely a Weight Watchers family, you know? It was just kind of a part

Starting point is 00:04:25 of the culture. I, for reference, I'm just turned 36. So you know, I was really, I'm a millennial. I was, you know, the diet culture craze was like really heavy in like the 90s and early 2000s. So my grandma was going to Weight Watchers, my mom was going to Weight Watchers. I was a child in Weight Watchers, which why is that legal?

Starting point is 00:04:46 Yeah. Why are we letting 12 year olds weigh in? And it is kind of like a nuanced thing for me to talk about because I am really blessed by having like a really supportive mom. And my grandmother was a great matriarch. Like I was raised and surrounded by a lot of love, but I think as a child, the way it was positioned to me was like, oh, we're doing this for

Starting point is 00:05:09 our health. We're getting in shape. You know, it was less of a, you got to be skinny to be hot. It was like, this is a, this is our community and what we do. And so I didn't really realize that it was toxic until much, much later because, again, like a lot of the community that people in bigger bodies have is dieting, you know? So I was just always trying different diets. I remember as like a young teen, I was like obsessed with those infomercials that would come out and it'd be like, body bite shake. Like I begged my mom for like the shake. Oh, listen, I'm not that, I'm not that young. I was, I was begging my mom for like a shake. Oh, listen, I'm not that I'm not that young. I was I was begging my mom for like, these like really old school like diet programs. Like, oh, yeah, we work with your

Starting point is 00:05:52 specific body makeup and blood type, we'll make you a program program by Michael or I don't know. But like I was doing all of them. So and then I think once I was in like high school, that's when it started to get more toxic, you know, like, I know, you know, and your listeners know, like restriction is not great. But like when I was a kid, and like when Weight Watchers was like fun, you know, it was like, like a family activity. But it wasn't until like high school when things did get a little bit more toxic. And like, I was getting a lot of messaging, like, you won't get a boyfriend. If you don't lose weight, like you will not have access to love. If you are not in a smaller body.

Starting point is 00:06:32 And I just really believe that. And that's kind of where my like desire to be smaller came from. Like it was never it was never health. It was I wanted to be loved. I wanted a boyfriend. I wanted attention. Wow. Yeah. I'm sure so many folks can relate to that story.

Starting point is 00:06:49 I'm so sorry that was the pervasive message growing up. That must have been terrifying because as women, we are socialized to believe that our purpose is we're going to get married and fall in love. It's this whole prince and princess bullshit. Yeah, it does make the question like, if fat people do have more challenges finding romantic partner or finding love, which I'm not saying that is that that's true necessarily or not. But is it because of the their actual body shape or size? Or is it because they've been fed these fat phobic narratives their whole lives about being unlovable and nobody's going to want you that they believe it themselves

Starting point is 00:07:31 and that creates kind of barriers to confidence in dating and socializing? Like what do you think those early messages perhaps did for your own romantic life? I think it's a monster that kind of feeds into itself, you know, because you're right, it is a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're getting all these messages that you are not lovable in a certain body, you believe that and then you project that and then you are more insecure and you maybe get into more codependent borderline abusive relationships because you think that's like all you deserve. And then at the same time,

Starting point is 00:08:07 it's like we still do live in a very fat phobic culture. So I do tell people it's like, yeah, I'm very confident. I'm like very solid in who I am as a 36 year old woman. However, I am aware of the world in which I live and I am aware that I will be judged because I am judged. It reminds me of confirmation bias. People tell you, oh, nobody will love you if you're fat.

Starting point is 00:08:36 Then it's like, oh, and then you're getting rejected and you're like, oh, well, it must be true. It must be true. It must be because of that. Right. It's not true. I have lots of. It must be true because of that. Right. And it's not true. I have lots of friends in bigger bodies, in happy relationships. Their partners are all shapes and sizes.

Starting point is 00:08:51 I definitely, not to brag, I got men in my DMs, okay? I love that. It's not true. It's just not true. Right. And I wish I could go back, but I can't. But now you spread the message to so many other people and that's so important, you know?

Starting point is 00:09:07 But I'm kind of curious, like, what happened that led you towards, like, body positivity and fat activism and adjacent movements? So I moved to New York when I was 24 to pursue stand-up comedy and I liked, I think, my whole story is like a bunch of accidents and I'm so, so grateful. But when I moved to New York, I was, you know, I had no money. I was doing like a bunch of temp jobs and like running around. And I think at the time I was thinking that dieting was still something I quote unquote should do, but didn't have time to do. I think I naturally over time just stopped dieting due to being so busy. But then also a lot of anger came up with having dealt with dieting for so long. And I started

Starting point is 00:09:52 doing what I'm pretty sure like other people think is intuitive eating where I was just like, fuck diets, I'm gonna eat whatever I want all the time, you know? And so I had no frame of reference. It was like either you diet or you're a slob, you know? Like I didn't know about intuitive eating, about like life is gray, like the middle ground, because we're freaking brainwashed to think that like... Good, bad. Yeah. So for years, for years I was just like eating like a little raccoon, like a little trash raccoon. And then it wasn't until 2018 where I like lost a job and I lost my health insurance.

Starting point is 00:10:34 And I reached out to New York state of health and I was like, Hey, I need health insurance. I lost it because my job was eliminated, no fault termination. And I didn't even ask for Medicaid. They just like sent me Medicaid and I was like, oh hell yeah. I'm gonna like I'm I went to the dentist. I like I did everything. I went to a dermatologist because it was free you know and I was like yeah I could try a nutritionist. Let me because I was aware I was like I'm not in great health like let me talk to a nutritionist and then God is real because the person I called, like the one person, and you might know her, I feel like all of you lovely, like, intuitive eating nutritionists, like, know each other, dietitians.

Starting point is 00:11:13 Yeah. Rebecca Dickhoff, do you know her? Oh, yeah, I know her name, yeah. Yeah, so she was like the one person in network at the time and I called her and I was like, I'm not doing low carb, I'm not doing, like, I was just so fe her and I was like, I'm not doing low carb. I'm not doing like I was just so feisty. And she was like, I'm not going to restrict anything like come in, let's talk. And it just so happened that she was on like a professional journey of discovering intuitive eating. Like she wasn't certified yet. She is now like her practice is awesome.

Starting point is 00:11:46 And they're all intuitive eating certified. But we kind of like discovered intuitive eating together. It was a really nice process. I read the book intuitive eating the original one. I read the book anti diet by Dr. Christy Harrison. And it was honestly this is this seems so basic, but it was reading these texts. Like that is my advice to people who are like, how do I break out of it? Read these books, okay, because it will break your brain in the best way. And it will also make you feel so validated, so angry, like just so ready to take on a life where you are not wasting it, trying to be smaller.

Starting point is 00:12:25 Like it really, it was like 2018 where I really broke through and once I discovered intuitive eating and the validation behind diets don't work, that's kind of when I was like, oh, this is just what my body looks like. This body is not a problem. And that's kind of when I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna flaunt it. I'm this is gonna help people. I'm gonna accept the body that I'm in. It's a beautiful body.

Starting point is 00:12:53 And so sorry, that was a really long answer. But that is my no, I love that was my journey. And you know, I love it because I think so many people, including myself in a lot of ways, can like relate to that, that kind of progression that that from that black and white, like we have two modes in diet culture, we're either on the diet, or we are off the diet and going hog wild. And that's allowed ourselves to venture a strip. Yeah. And so it's interesting, because obviously, you know, my origin story is very different that I've never lived in a larger body, but I suffered from an E-Niss order. And on my way from severe restriction to food freedom to where I am today, I also had this rebellion stage where I was kind of like, eat all the things, fuck it, going all in. And you know, it's a process.

Starting point is 00:13:43 And so it took time for me to kind of trust that I could listen to my body and know that I would honor my body. And so I think that, you know, while eating disorder, well, intuitive eating is not the eat whatever the fuck you want diet, like a lot of folks who will criticize it suggest it is, it does start with that first stage of rejecting the diet mentality. So I think it makes complete sense that for a lot of us who were in such a long-term problematic relationship with our bodies and food, that it takes that 360 moment to kickstart the journey. So I think a lot of people can probably identify with that progression and it is a journey, right?

Starting point is 00:14:30 It is. I always try to tell people like intuitive eating is something you learn over a lifetime. For sure. You know, a lot of people, and it's again, it's because we're trained with diet culture and these like, this is gonna change your life and transform and results in two weeks, three weeks. Intuitive eating takes years. I started in 2018. It is now 2024. And

Starting point is 00:14:50 I've only just now basically become alcohol-free, which I'm not advocating people do alcohol-free. It's just like, it took my body that long to finally be like, oh, you don't like alcohol. You know? Right. Like it's just, it is like a slow, it is a slow burn. So when people be like, oh, you don't like alcohol. You know? It's a slow burn. So when people are like, this doesn't work for me. I'm going to eat all the cookies. I'm like, keep trying. Yeah. It's a journey. It's not going to happen overnight. And that's scary for a lot of people to hear who want kind of like they've been dieting their whole life. And now they're like, oh my God, I'm just going to everything I ever see that and that may be true for a

Starting point is 00:15:28 lot of folks who are just getting started with intuitive eating, who have been heavily restricted. There is going to likely be a period where you do kind of eat all the things that you've been restricting in the past. But if you see it through and you build that trust and you build that body attunement, those skills, then like you said, it took you how many years to realize, okay, maybe alcohol does not feel good to my body. It's an act of self-care to not drink. So I think, thank you for sharing that because I think it's definitely very relatable. But I want to go back to body positivity because I think, you know, there's a lot of these

Starting point is 00:16:18 words out there and I think a lot of people have a sense of what they mean, but don't really know what they mean. Yeah. How do you see a concept like body positivity versus movements where fatness is kind of front and center, like fat positive, fat liberation, fat activism, et cetera? Yeah. So I definitely identify as a fat liberationist, fat activist. I'm fat positive. I'm in the fat space. That is true for me. I am also body positive. I feel like in the fat positive space and the fat liberation of space, um, there's a lot of talk about like body positivity doesn't help us, you know, I'm not body positive because body learning to love my body isn't going

Starting point is 00:16:59 to give me, you know, better care at a doctor, which is true, which is why fat activism is so important and is like my number one temple, you know? But within that temple, I love my body. I practice it like loving what she can do. Yes, what she looks like. Like I really don't, I mean, personally, I don't find it helpful to toss out body positivity. I feel like that's throwing the baby out with the bath water. Like, it's one of those two things are true things where

Starting point is 00:17:29 it's like, yeah, we need fat activism, but like body positivity also great. Like, yeah, it's, there's a phrase, I forget who said it first. This is embarrassing, but like there's a phrase in like the fat activism space where it's like fat vanity is a survival tool that fat people teach each other, you know? And fat vanity, that's just like being cute and taking pictures. Right. Well, accepting ourselves.

Starting point is 00:17:55 And that helps us be mentally healthy, which is a part of overall health. So anyways, I'm getting really so foxy here, but I'm not ready to release body positivity. I think it's very important. No, I love that perspective. And I think it totally makes sense in the way that perhaps body positivity may be vital for individuals' own sense of self. Whereas fat activism, fat liberation may help make the world more hospitable for larger bodies.

Starting point is 00:18:28 Yes. Like the social justice. 100%. Yeah. But okay, so I want to get your take on this because again, I have no lived experience in a larger body, but it irks me when I see, you know, very straight sized, thin folks on social media take pictures of themselves being like, see, I have roles too. And if I just, you know, turn a certain way, hashtag body positivity.

Starting point is 00:18:56 Oh, my God. How does content like that feel to you? Like, or even just straight sized folks using the term body positivity in contexts like that. Okay. Well, let me say body positivity is for everybody. It was started by hot fatties. Okay.

Starting point is 00:19:12 Let's not forget our origin stories. But yes, Abby, that does drive me crazy. And I hope it's okay to say that, but it really... Because again, a lot of our listeners are straight-sized and I love them, and this is for all of us, right? But it's just, I don't know. It's like, is it co-opting fatness? Like if there's just something that does not pass the smell test when a straight size person is like, this is normal. This is normal. This is normal. And they're like sitting and scrunching and then they straighten up and then guess what? They're gone.

Starting point is 00:19:46 They're skinny again. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's like, I can't sit up and my roles are gone. I have roles all the time. So it is sort of like, I don't know. It's like, it feels, I know they're not trying to be offensive,

Starting point is 00:20:02 but it does feel like a little insensitive because, but it does feel a little insensitive. It also feels a little bit self-glorifying in a way when they show their bodies in these ways that do look societally acceptable. It's almost like they do want to see what their body looks like that, and then they scrunch it and they're like, but it also does this. I'm like, okay, congratulations. You can also not look skinny. Right. I do feel like it insinuates that, you know, rules are okay as long as you're thin. Yeah. Like, thatness is okay up until a very specific point where if you stand up

Starting point is 00:20:40 straight, the thatness disappears kind of thing. I really don't think it helps anyone, including other straight-sized folks who are seeing content like that and they're feeling insecure. It's toxic content in general to be comparing our bodies to one another. It's so validating to hear you say that because I agree. Yeah. And okay, so I want to kind of like elaborate on some of these ideas for a second because I think, you know, when you've lived your life with and privileged, you maybe don't realize how fat activism applies to you or like how anti-fat bias can affect you.

Starting point is 00:21:21 But I would say like chances are for anybody listening to this podcast, like you've probably struggled with your relationship with your body and food in some way, even if you've never been fat. You know, you've likely been fighting through restriction and diets, over exercising rules, like all of the dogma that we, you know, we come across on social media. And the reason for that is fat phobia. And people don't realize that. Yes. Right?

Starting point is 00:21:48 Abby, thank you. I get so tired of people talking about like, oh, the pressure to be thin. Like it is not the pressure to be thin. It is the pressure to not be fat. Like let's ... Right. We need to keep this in the conversation that it is anti-fat bias. It's fat phobic. Like this is the cornerstone of diet culture, people. Yes. Yes. And people need to understand that because fat phobia hurts us all. It kept me deeply entrenched in eating disorder for years. And I mean, this is kind of why we often say

Starting point is 00:22:17 like fat is a feminist issue because fat phobia is designed to negatively affect all of us. Right. Even if, you know, kind of like what we were saying, like it may be immediately dangerous to fat people for whom the world is not built for. Yeah. Clothes, rides, airplanes, health care bias. Right. Discrimination, etc. Right.

Starting point is 00:22:39 But at the end of the day, it does none of us any favors. Exactly. I'm so glad that, cause you're like a really important voice in this space too. And I really appreciate that you understand that component and that you're shouting it from the rooftop. So as a fact, thank you so much. Yeah. Okay. And like speaking of harm,

Starting point is 00:23:01 because you know, this is harmful for, you know, again, die culture affects us all. I wanna talk about how you see the age of ozempic affecting the body positivity movement. Sure, yeah, we've been asked about this a lot. I feel like, well, let me say, my fun little disclaimer, which is I'm very pro body autonomy, I'm never going to shame anyone

Starting point is 00:23:25 for making a decision for their own body, no matter what that is, including taking a GLP-1 for weight loss, okay? So that's obviously true. Sometimes people don't realize that's true, but that is true. At the same time, a lot of people in bigger bodies are dealing with an increasing pressure to take GLP-1s. Because

Starting point is 00:23:46 before, you know, we could kind of say like, well, diets don't work, you know, so I'm going to choose to accept my body. That's like kind of a simple equation. You know, diets don't work, I'm in a bigger body, I accept myself, deal with it, you know. Now, it's like we're, there's this idea that GLP-1s and Ozempic and everything is like a proven way to keep the weight off, you know? And so the pressure to, it's almost like, it's always been kind of a, it shouldn't be a political statement,

Starting point is 00:24:19 but it's always kind of been a political statement to be in a bigger body and not trying to lose weight. Now it seems like it's an even bigger statement because now there is this thing that, you know, actually keeps the weight off, but it's like, it's very expensive. It is, it changes your, you know, your body, how your hunger cues can like communicate with yourself. You have to stay on it forever. Okay. Like it is not an easy, quick fix. I mean, I've talked with people and they're like, this completely changed my life. Like this is, this is what I've been waiting for, but I feel like at the same time it is catnip for people with eating disorders. Okay?

Starting point is 00:24:56 It completely, like, and it is not being monitored very well, you know? Like if you are even in a slightly bigger body and you're at the doctor's office, they're going to say, take this. Okay. Like we now have to arm ourselves with like all this like fat activism and body positivity, like knowledge about how these drugs work to decide if we're going to take them or not. Like if people aren't doing that, which most people aren't, they're just going to start taking these. It does worry me because it's a lifelong choice and it is becoming really the pressure to take it has gotten really, really strong for fat people. It is a little concerning for me.

Starting point is 00:25:40 Yeah, I know. I can totally understand that. like you, I'm all about body autonomy. And, you know, so again, I've got friends who are on ozempic who feel it's changed their lives. And I'm so grateful that we have options for them and for others who feel the same. So again, I love that we have choice options, but again, so important to weigh out the risks and benefits for the individual. important to weigh out the risks and benefits for the individual. But on a social level, I often do worry that framing these drugs as like a cure for obesity, just reinforces this dichotomous idea of thin equals healthy and fat equals unhealthy. When actually these things are not mutually exclusive, and they also exist on a spectrum. Right. Right. And not to mention like LP1s are ironically not without risk to your health. So you might lose weight. Yeah. But we have evidence

Starting point is 00:26:32 that, you know, without really strong counseling, like you said, a lot of that weight is going to come from metabolic muscle mass. And it's very hard to meet your basic nutrient needs like from protein, omega-3s, fiber, micronutrients when you're severely under eating. So I'm never ever going to discount the potential benefits of these drugs. I'm always very excited about innovations in science, but I do think it's a great example of how a smaller body doesn't necessarily mean instant health, right? Because you may be trading one health risk for another. If there was even a health risk there to begin with, one health risk for another if there was even a health risk there to begin with. Like you said, if you're in a slightly larger body,

Starting point is 00:27:09 then the doctor is going to be like, well, just take this. So we have to be cautious about that. Not to mention, I feel like fat people can't win because they're chastised when they don't actively diet to lose weight, but then they are in trouble or they're criticized for taking the easy way out when they take meds. I know. Right? So it's truly and because of that, like if anybody's listening to this and like, oh God, there's no, it's like, no, the way out is not giving a fuck. Okay. The way out is unsubscribing. Okay, because you cannot win by society standards. Okay, you are set up anti fat by excuse me, anti fat bias runs so so deep. Like you cannot win that game. You have to exit the game. Okay, like, and you're right, like being I I call it, gosh, I'm being a little bit of a hater today, but I call it the, I call it the health dance, where they're like, it's for my health. And I'm like, you don't want to be fat. Like, I, like, I know a lot of people do have health concerns. But I feel like it's a health dance.

Starting point is 00:28:25 day, a lot of these assumptions just kind of reinforce all these fatphobic tropes about fat people being lazy and motivated. So they either don't want to diet or they want to take drugs to make it easy to kind of lose weight. And it doesn't obviously help anybody. So yeah. But speaking of fat phobic tropes, I wanted to kind of ask about this like long standing assumption that body positivity or even just like actively not wanting to lose weight, or even like posting a photo of yourself in a bikini or whatever is quote-unquote glorifying obesity. What are your thoughts on that? My thoughts are that's ridiculous. Like I don't even like nobody, nobody posts like a picture being like five foot two and they're like you're glorifying shortness. It's like I'm just

Starting point is 00:29:24 being like five foot two and they're like, you're glorifying shortness. It's like, I'm just not trying to have surgery to extend my legs. Also, let's state the obvious here, the O word, obesity has, quote unquote, obesity has been used to stigmatize people in bigger bodies. So even putting that in the phrase is problematic. It's used to take fat people down a peg. Right. that's, it's used to take fat people down a peg, you know, nobody wants because it breaks people's brains. And this is okay, this you're actually going to be surprised at this metaphor. This is why I think I had trouble when I was performing on cruise ships with like, boomers in Middle America,

Starting point is 00:29:57 because they had been so steeped in diet culture for so long, it was like hard for them to see, like a fat, happy, single, childless woman, just like living her best long, it was like hard for them to see like a fat, happy, single, childless woman, just like living her best life. It broke their brains. They hated it. They could not understand me, you know? And I think it's rather than to reflect on, oh crap, have I like wasted a lot of my time and energy trying to be at a smaller body when this other example, hello me exists, where you're in a bigger body and time and energy trying to be at a smaller body when this other example, hello me, exists where you're in a bigger body and happy and fulfilled.

Starting point is 00:30:29 It's like, that's a really hard conversation to have with yourself and I get it. There is some mourning to be had. There is some grief to be had. So it's like either you are really mentally strong and you go through that grief of what you gave to Zy culture, or you say, oh, well, they're just glorifying an unhealthy lifestyle and that's bad. And it's just like, no, this is what acceptance looks like. This is not like if I think of the term glorifying, quote unquote, obesity, I think of like, I

Starting point is 00:31:00 don't know, like an ex person and like an extremely bigger body, like eating a tub of ice cream. It's like nobody, but that's not what's happening. Like eating a tub of ice cream and say, you should eat a tub of ice cream too. It's like, no, nobody is saying like when I'm posting a bikini pic, I'm not saying you too can have this sexy curvy body if you overeat. Like that's ridiculous. It's stupid.

Starting point is 00:31:23 I hide those comments. If you see them, delete them. They are not. They are lies. So that is my thoughts. They are lies. I 100% agree. When I hear comments like that, I just am like, do you understand the world we live in right now? I get a lot of pushback, for example, from people telling me that I disproportionately criticize what-a-day videos that start with a thin woman doing a body check. And then people are like, well, why do you only criticize the skinny girls doing body checks? Why don't you call out the fat girls what-a-days or if they do a body check? And my answer to that is one, well, largely because there's far more problematic diet videos out there posted by thin women than

Starting point is 00:32:14 larger body of women. And B, the power of influence is never going to be the same. Because like you said, if a thin woman posts her diet video leaning into her ankles, doing a body check, maybe not even showing her face, it just like boobs down usually. And then post this kind of restrictive, disordered, what ain't a day, there is this clear message, especially for young people that, oh, if you eat like this, you can look like this. Yeah, because all bodies are the same. Right. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:32:44 Because we live in diet culture, young people are going to try to copy that diet even if it is super problematic. Because again, we're a culture obsessed with the pursuit of thinness. But when, you know, here in diet culture, fatness is not sought after at any or all costs the same way that thinness is. So, and this is not like skinny-shaming. Yeah, it's like a fallacy. Right, it's a full fallacy that fatphobic people play into to make it seem like, oh,

Starting point is 00:33:17 you know, like this is a conspiracy against thin people. No, it's that, you know, problematic diet tips are still problematic. Sorry, conspiracy against thin people is really funny. No, it's that, you know, problematic diet tips are still problematic. Sorry, conspiracy against men people is really funny. Right. But like, I feel like that's what people are trying to make it seem like is happening. But like, you know, like the problematic diet tips are still problematic no matter what the person's size is who's sharing them. Yeah. I've called out things that larger body folks have said that is complete misinformation

Starting point is 00:33:46 or problematic content, especially like in the mukbangs. But the risk to a young, vulnerable viewer is unequivocally disproportionate because people aren't saying, oh, I want to look like that fat person, so I'm going to do mukbangs too. Right. Literally nobody is doing that, which is again, it's like nobody's doing that yet how many people are using the phrase glorifying obesity. It's just completely disproportionate, does not exist. You're just trying to stigmatize a group of people. Okay. So I wanted to close off, you know, what would you want or need from straight-sized folks to kind of help support you in these movements without kind of co-opting it as our own?

Starting point is 00:34:34 Great question. I have some easy things and then I have like a expert level thing. Okay. So the basic, the most basic thing you can do is not use fat phobic language. Okay. Like don't say, I feel fat. Don't say, do I look fat in this? Does this, and I have friends who are very aware of, of my message and who I am and they'll still let it slip and be like, does this make me look fat? I'm like, girl, like just don't say that you're implying that fat is gross and something that you never want to be and that stigmatizes your friends. You know, like anti-fat bias, it's not just like, oh, you don't want to be fat, but it's like it's also people forget like we are in a, we are a demographic. Fat people

Starting point is 00:35:24 are a group of people. And the more that you engage in anti-fat bias, the more you're like putting down like an entire demographic of people. So the most simple thing you can do is just don't use that language. I know it's tempting, we're raised in it, but just that's baseline, okay?

Starting point is 00:35:42 Don't use fat phobic language. The second thing you can do, which is pretty simple, is when you go to a restaurant or event or anything like that, this is all you say. Straight-sized people, write this down. Do you have a preference on where to sit? Okay? Do you have a preference on where to sit?

Starting point is 00:36:01 Because even the most fat activist of your friends isn't gonna wanna say, oh, I might not fit in that booth. OK, it's humiliating to have to talk about our body size and have to like reiterate that the world isn't built for us. It's not fun. OK, and on the flip side, even if you have a fat friend who is on a diet or whatever,

Starting point is 00:36:21 they're still going to want to be comfortable when they sit down. So just say, do you have a preference where we sit? And if they say a table, don't say, oh man, why a table? Like it's cause the booth is too tight. Okay. So just, that's a very kind thing you can say and you're not even bringing up like, Hey, due to your body size, where do you want to sit? You're just saying, do you have a preference on where to sit? And they will guide you. They know. And then the expert level thing you can do.

Starting point is 00:36:53 People are going to hate this. You don't have to do it. I get it. We have the places that we like to shop. Shopping is personal. Shopping is emotional. I love fashion. Oh, I forgot to say fashion is a big part of how I found body positivity, by the way,

Starting point is 00:37:09 because I'm a girly girl and I just, I love to dress up and it's hard to do that if you're just covering your body in like droopy black clothes. Anyways, when you're shopping, try to see, I am scared to even ask for it. Like we don't want to ask for things. Like I'm No, I'm for it. We want to know. I am like, I want to, we're so scared to ask for it. We would love it if you would try to mostly shop at places that have inclusive sizing because I love

Starting point is 00:37:43 Yeah, the fashion industry has really left fat people in the dust lately with the age of ozempic like it is hardcore and obvious and it is plummeting like it is the plus-size fashion space is in a really bad spot right now and the brands that are still like the bastions of having like lots of sizes like like universal standard, places like that, like shop there. Like if that, you can cast your vote against fat phobia with your dollars. And it's fun, you're going shopping. Yeah, I love that.

Starting point is 00:38:13 You know, so those are my tips. Amazing, I think that's just so helpful for so many people that, you know, are just kind of getting started in understanding fat phobia, understanding the body positivity and fat activism movements. And I really appreciate you coming on to chat with me.

Starting point is 00:38:32 Also, I'm obsessed with good bodies. Like it's- Thank you, yes. Such a great podcast. So I highly recommend it. Thank you so much. Well, thank you again, Lauren. So nice talking to you.

Starting point is 00:38:55 That was such a thought-provoking conversation, especially for someone like myself who has ultimately lived her whole life with thin privilege. For those of you who have struggled with your body image and weight your whole life, I am sure you heard yourself in Lauren's experiences. And for those of us with thin privilege, Lauren offered some really incredible and useful action items for our own learning and work. And I want to acknowledge that these two seemingly different experiences are actually not mutually exclusive and that you can have thin privilege and also struggle with your body, be affected by discrimination and ultimately be damned by diet culture and fat phobia. As we've discussed that is why we are all here. But for those of us in straight-sized bodies I do think it's important to understand and appreciate how our experiences differ. And that starts with

Starting point is 00:39:46 understanding thin privilege. I don't know why thin privilege is so controversial, but it feels like anytime I say the words I have thin privilege in a video, I will inevitably get a ton of pushback from people insisting that it's not a real thing. Thin privilege exists for straight-sized folks even if you hate your body and I really wanted to give you just five of many examples of how that privilege for thin folks or conversely disadvantage for larger body folks plays out in real life. Number one, healthcare discrimination. If you're able to go to the doctors for literally anything, so like a rash, a persistent cough, anxiety, and the first recommendation

Starting point is 00:40:32 isn't automatically weight loss, you probably have been privileged. It's well documented that at least 60% of larger-bodied women have experienced fat phobia from their healthcare provider. One study found that doctors who specialize in clinical management of obesity displayed strong weight bias and used words like lazy, stupid, and worthless to describe their fat patients. And this does cause harm. Larger- body individuals often experience

Starting point is 00:41:05 shorter appointment times, less comprehensive exams, fewer referrals for specialists at imaging, and longer wait times for surgeries and other procedures. One study, for example, found that larger bodied women are less likely to be screened for cancer and are more likely to die from these cancers when compared to normal weight women with cancer. 2.

Starting point is 00:41:29 The fat fashion tax If you're able to walk into virtually any store and find your size in clothing, you likely have thin privilege. As Lauren described, not only do larger bodied folks have fewer clothing brand options, but the options that they do have often cost more money. So for example, a plus-sized t-shirt at Target could be nearly 20% more expensive than the same straight size shirt. And while a lot of companies may argue that it takes more fabric to make a 2X garment than an extra small, it does seem kind of strange to be basing

Starting point is 00:42:07 prices off of the extra small when almost 70% of American women are over a size 14. So extra small is actually the minority here. Number three is work discrimination. If you haven't been overlooked for a promotion or job you're qualified for because of your weight, you probably have thin privilege. One study found that HR professionals were more likely to disqualify larger body people from being hired and less likely to nominate them for supervisory positions. Another study found that larger body job applicants were more likely to be viewed as being less conscientious, less agreeable,

Starting point is 00:42:45 less emotionally stable, and less extroverted than their normal weight counterparts. And this discrimination disproportionately affects women, where larger-bodied men are less likely to be judged or disadvantaged compared to the same-size women where beauty standards play a bigger role. For each one unit increase in a woman's BMI, they receive 1.83% lower hourly wages. So yeah, that's wild. Number four, accessibility in the world. If you're able to fly on any airline or eat in any restaurant seat or fit in any car or ride any roller coaster, you probably have been privileged. In a lot of cases, like on special rides or in small restaurants or in many vehicles,

Starting point is 00:43:33 there may just not be an option for a larger-bodied person to participate. In other cases, like flying internationally, we again see the fat tax where larger-bodied folks are required to pay for two seats. Some countries, including my own Canada, have adopted a one-person, one-fare policy, which prevents domestic airlines from charging passengers that require an extra seat an additional fare. But there's still a really long way to go to make the world more accessible to folks in larger bodies. And number five, limited media representation. If you see bodies like yours in media in starring

Starting point is 00:44:11 roles like TV, movies, ads, and fashion, you probably have thin privilege. In contrast, fat characters in media are almost always one-dimensional. They either serve as the funny goofy dumb friend which simply reinforces fat-phobic stereotypes or they're reduced down to a weight-loss story arc and are always trying to prove they're worthy of love or friendship despite their weight. Consider like Fat Amy in Pitch Perfect as the former and Bridget Jones as the latter, who despite Fatness being central to her whole identity was literally a size 10. But I digress. Finally, let's talk about public judgment. If you can eat or talk about or just interact with food, literally any food, without being watched,

Starting point is 00:44:59 lectured or judged, you probably have thin privilege. In my experience as a thin person, I can eat pizza or dessert, and either people will say nothing at all, or might even make a comment that I'm like such a cool girl for not ordering a boring salad. In contrast, larger body folks' food choices are constantly surveilled and critiqued. They will get comments or lectures in the grocery store, at restaurants, at family events,

Starting point is 00:45:29 at work, and perhaps most viciously on the internet. It is really, truly fucked up. Recognizing thin privilege doesn't mean ignoring or not validating your own struggles with your body and food, but it is crucial in helping us challenge the fat phobia and diet culture that ultimately harms us all. And that is all that I have for you guys today. Another huge thank you to Lauren Hope Krass for helping me fight back against diet culture. You've got to check out her podcast Good Body,

Starting point is 00:46:01 so I'm gonna be linking to it in the show notes below. And don't forget, please leave me a review. It really does help me out as a new podcast to get the word out. Signing off with Science and Sass, I'm you

Bite Back with Abbey Sharp - “You’re Glorifying Obesity” and Other Fatphobic Lies about Body Positivity with Lauren Hope Krass of the Good Bodies Podcast

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