Blue By Ninety - Game Week with former Michigan Defensive End Craig Roh

Episode Date: October 22, 2020

It's finally game week! The guys discuss Week 1 vs. Minnesota and interview former Michigan Defensive End Craig Roh. Check out Craig's Pass Rush Bible at https://www.craigroh.com/the-pass-rush-bible now! 

This is the University of Michigan. Touchdown, Michigan! The Beats of Michigan! They can court extra pass. And it goes to the wind! The three-pointer by Jordan Poole! Down the sideline! Peebles Jones!

Touchdown, Wolverines! Alright, welcome back to Blue by 90. We are here today and boys, it's game week. We're here. We made it. We finally made it. It's October. It's late October. We've waited all summer, all fall How are you guys feeling? Like you said, it's officially game week College game day, it's going to be in Minnesota

It's a night game It's finally setting in, I'll be moving into the new house I'll have a little man cave for myself To watch games in the basement It's perfect, man I couldn't set up for a better timing For the season to start for me That's awesome I'll have to join you over there, Jack man. I couldn't, couldn't set up for a better, better timing for the season to start for me.

That's awesome. I'll have to join you over there, Jack. Check out the new house, check out the new team that's out there playing against Minnesota. I mean, I'm pumped. It feels like this is going to be the longest week of all time. So I'm just so ready for the season to start at this point. I know it'll be interesting. I mean, I usually kind of have a rhythm uh you know going back to previous seasons of like game weeks you know Monday you know Monday Tuesday Wednesday you're not really thinking about it then all

of a sudden you know Thursday Friday roll around you're you're doing a little scouting on the on the opponent you know as a fan even you know getting into it and stuff um listening to the talk radio whether it was you know spath or um sam webb or those guys talking about what's going on um so yeah well i'm gonna i'm gonna cut you off real quick because you mentioned spath so for anybody who doesn't know justin is joining michael spath for another podcast right stadium and main podcast where you guys will put out what four episodes a week or so. So you'll be able to hear Justin on that.

Don't forget about us, but I had, I had to give a row a little shout out there. I appreciate that. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not leaving blue by 90. So no one, nobody panic or anything. He's going with that full-time podcaster life. Start living in a box

uh yeah so i will be joining michael spath uh on a new podcast called stadium in maine we're putting it out four days a week um to to talk a little bit a little bit more analytical maybe some more serious uh expertise a little bit instead of just us shit you know shooting the shit here and uh and drinking so uh let it be known let it it's on the record now that roe has referred to himself as a serious uh sports podcaster now oh boy that's gonna come back to haunt me oh god so that'll be fun though um we'll still be here a couple times a week for sure so um definitely not leaving here anytime soon so um yeah so anyways but but i'm pumped man i mean what are you guys feeling going up to the minnesota game you you mentioned it earlier

uh or just now jack the college game day is going to be there. It's a 730 night game. So in classic Michigan fashion, we've got a huge game right off the bat on the road with a new quarterback. You know, we talked about this with Clayton kind of feeling like Notre Dame in 2018. Are you guys feeling confident? Are you feeling nervous?

What are you feeling um you know going into the game one here for Michigan in 2020 well I don't know about Kalen but nothing has changed for me every season I go in confident overhyped you know we're gonna have the best team ever um but we actually it seems like we have a quarterback right now so I'm I feel good about it I'm I'm glad there's no like top five hype or anything like that so let's calm down a little bit um to where the hype's a little bit more realistic as long as we stay away from joe milton um but game day is going to be there i don't know does minnesota have fans are they allowed to have fans in their stadiums i don't know if that's a

big 10 rule or what it is but i'm curious to see if they're gonna have fans game day being there it's gonna have a lot of hype around it. We've talked about it before. Minnesota's a really good team. Like, I don't think it would be an easy win. I'm expecting a close game. I could see it going either way. But, I mean, I'm just like the rest of you guys.

I'm excited to see the Maize and Blue on the field, and especially at night. That'll be awesome. It'll be a good nightcap for my college football Saturday. Yeah, very well said Jack. I mean, I've, this is one of those weird years where I'm just kind of like, I have no idea what to expect. Right. I mean, there's so many question marks.

I'm just going to be happy to see the maize and blue on the football field playing football. But in terms of like what my expectations are i just don't know what to think really just because there's new qb new line so many new faces starting there i don't have much to go on uh obviously my michigan bias is here right and so i'm like oh we're gonna go in there and and be awesome right but my analytical part of my brain is like I mean there's so many unanswered questions I just don't know yeah I mean I think that was one of the big things I was thinking of is Michigan has a lot more question marks than Minnesota going into this game you know Minnesota has a quarterback

that has been that has proven himself already. They've got a stud wide receiver. That's obviously one of the best in the nation. Their offense is going to be probably clicking pretty well. I would, I would think going, you know, right off the bat, their defense, I don't know, they had to, they had to replace quite a few people on defense, but so did Michigan. So I could kind of see this with two high powered offenses and two defenses that, you know, especially for Michigan in the secondary, don't have a ton of experience or have those question marks. I can see it being a shootout, which will be interesting to see because Michigan hasn't fared well in shootouts really. So I don't know. It's, it's you, you're

cautiously optimistic, right? You want to be like, all right, I want to see what Joe Milton can do, and let's sling it to those fast wide receivers out there. But, man, you just – especially when it's a big game on the road in college game day. I think Jim Harbaugh is like one in seven in college game day games. So, especially when it's on the road against an unranked or against a ranked team he's I believe the only team he's beaten on the road as a ranked team is Michigan State in 2018 and they were 24 so yeah they were they were they were at

the bottom of the top 25 yeah I think they they dropped out of the rankings after that game and never went back into it so yeah if you want to even really count that you know it's like we're counting it we'll take it gotta take anything we can get we'll take it um i actually had a stat um that i was talking with my buddies about um so we'll do a little trivia for you boys. Oh, God. When was the last time that Michigan won a game that they were not favored in on the road? Man. Dude, I have no clue. 2006?

Right. That's how far back we're going. I mean, I feel like it has to be that far back right it's not that far back but it is pretty far back it was 2013 versus northwestern um so devin gardner my qb that's my qb our upcoming guest here craig rowe was on that team as well so right um so yeah so seven years none of those under Harbaugh. Harbaugh's only been here for five. So Harbaugh hasn't beaten a team that he hasn't –

or that he wasn't favored against on the road yet. So – And right now, right now Michigan's favored to win that game, right? At least betting odds. I think – I thought it was Minnesota minus two and a half is what it opened at. I thought Clayton just put something up on Twitter that said it was switched to Michigan. I could be wrong, but I thought I saw that.

But I remember it started with Minnesota. It started with Minnesota. I knew it moved at least to Minnesota minus one and a half, so it moved back towards Michigan. It might have moved farther. But either way and i i don't know in these types of situations michigan has usually dropped the ball so it's hard as a fan to be super optimistic about it um but we'll see i maybe it's a different team maybe you know

maybe minnesota is not also also not the team that everyone thinks they are too. What do you guys think about P.J. Fleck? And, you know, they won some games at the beginning of last year. They beat some cupcake teams by like four points last year in the beginning of the year. So, I don't know. Do you guys think he's legit? Do you think they're legit? Or are they inflated a little bit by ESPN and the media?

No, I think they're legit. I mean, they beat Penn State pretty handily from what I remember last year. And, I mean, P.J. Flex got the whole program bought in. They're rowing the boat. I mean, I don't see them coming out. And I guess what I would see is them doing what almost every other college football team has done, which is just play sloppy defense, right? We've seen that all around the whole sport.

So I could see that, but them just straight not being ready, I wouldn't count on it. Yeah, I mean, I'm a believer in P.J. Fleck personally. I think he's got that program exactly how he wants it to be run and again I don't know like I mean I know Jeff was telling us about how he's the number one guy on the board for the Gamecocks if like they were looking for a new coach where I don't know if he'd be able to go down to SEC or somewhere like that and get a team to buy in the way that I feel like he kind of needs it to.

But I feel like Minnesota is a perfect spot for him. I feel – I mean, we know Tanner Morgan is a solid quarterback. Like you said, Rashad Bateman is coming back. I mean, I think Minnesota is the real deal, man. We'll see what happens. I think it will be interesting next year, maybe the year after, to see like once he's kind of through there and playing some tough teams on the road to see like once he's kind of through there and playing some

tough teams on the road to see how he kind of fares out but right now I mean they're as legit or more legit to Michigan is that's for sure yeah a lot of people are comparing Fleck to Harbaugh and saying that he has already you know won a few big games in his early in his career more than Harbaugh has so we'll see they do play in the in the west which definitely favors them I was looking at their schedule today outside of Michigan and then they play at Wisconsin there isn't a tough game on their schedule they do have to play Iowa at home but Iowa is probably down with Nate Stanley you know is gone and they've got a new quarterback, but they have a cupcake schedule outside of those two games. And so, I mean, it's, you just, it's really as a fan for Michigan, it's like, dang,

I wish we were in the big 10 West. Cause Oh my God. Yeah. Michigan's in the big 10 West. They're going to the big 10 title game, you know, every year, or at least they're the favorite to go. And it's like, it's between them and Wisconsin battling it out, which, you know, we've gone, you know, back and forth with them every year. So I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. I, I, I predict a fun game, I think. And so we'll talk about it a little bit later this week with cam from the Michigan page as well. But let's let's go right into our interview.

So we've got former Michigan defensive end, Craig Rowe. He's also my cousin. Oh, interesting. I know. I haven't mentioned that on the podcast before. But we're excited to have him on, so we'll bring him on now. All right. bringing him on now all right we are here with craig row former uh defensive end for the michigan wolverines uh and also my cousin so how you doing craig what's up i'm doing well good good yeah obviously you know i've referred to you as you know the lesser row on our podcast uh prior so um you know people know kind of what

the deal is here yeah no it's it's uh and it's the truth right so it's uh in terms of just sheer accomplishments and you know athletic yeah strength speed just getting down to like the nitty-gritty it's you're just better than me in every way yeah thank you thank you thanks for clearing that up and letting everybody know that so i think everybody's just glad now this is finally confirmed we've heard we've heard about it so many times we never really knew for sure and now now it can be confirmed that you two are related that's good yeah i was actually we had we had michael spath on the on our podcast um and you've done some stuff with him right uh yeah yeah yeah and so i was joking around like oh yeah you know i'm obviously better than he's like what did he say he's like oh yeah at hold you're better at holding

his jock strap yeah oh my gosh well when i say everything that's everything right that's true that's true um all right well um so tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now you're in Austin Texas the the CFL uh season unfortunately got canceled due to COVID um so you've got this thing going to called the pass rush bible. So tell us a little bit about that and what you're trying to do here. Yeah, so this is a bit of a passion project that I've been working on. Growing up all throughout football, I always wanted like a definitive guide on like how to play D-line, how to do run defense, how to pass rush perfectly, this stuff and I never had it growing up I would watch Dwight Freeney and go like oh yeah like okay it looks like he's on the third step chopping lowering and spinning but I never you know I was always beholden to whatever coach was kind of helping

me through that journey and what I want to do here is put really all the knowledge that I've gained over the years into one definitive resource on Pass Rush for aspiring athletes, for coaches, and for also fans who want to get an inside look on what's actually going through a professional's mind before the snap, how they're preparing, how they're looking at the game through the lens of the pro. And I wanted to put it all in one definitive resource. And, you know, it took a lot of hard work and I literally stayed up for 26 hours straight. The night of the launch had like four Red Bulls and I'm sure I took off like a few years of my life, but launched it. And the response has been pretty awesome.

And a lot of like even Robert Mathis, you know, legendary Colts guy and guy that I've looked up to, you know, said like, yeah, this looks awesome. You know, checking it out right away. And so like I have had some pretty awesome people reaching out and saying it's a great resource for them and, you know, just solving a problem for coaches and for players where, you know, they now have something they can lean on to be kind of that definitive resource for them that they can use to achieve their goals. And so that that's what I've been up to.

I like it. I like it. Yeah. And it's like, you know, with, when it comes to football, you know, there's probably a ton of film on quarterbacks and a ton of film on running backs and, and, you know, all that stuff. Pass rushing is an art form that sometimes people don't realize all that goes into that. Right. It's fine. You know, it's not always just a bull rush and whoever's the biggest guy and shoving people over there's, there's a lot more to it. Right.

Yeah. Well, it's, it's actually interesting. I talk about this in the book that there's, you know, like a couple of different proto pass rush prototypes. So like if you're a power, there are guys out there who pass rush is more checkers than chess for them because they're so physically gifted. When you're a guy who can overpower everyone, you can be just a power rusher. You can't bull rush every time.

But that's like 2% of the guys out there ever at any level. And if it worked in high school, it probably won't work in college. If it worked in college, it probably won't work in the NFL. And then there's like three guys in the NFL who can do that. So it's a very small group of people who can actually do it. But for 95% of people who aren't like a, you know, the strongest guy in the room or the fastest guy in the room, they have to play a little bit more chess than checkers. And you're now you're going into strategy. Oh, what kind of set did this tackle take? Is he doing a vertical set, jump set? Where his hands at? How can I match my hands to his hands? How can I turn the corner? How can I, you know, go speed, speed, and then a counter rush?

It's a whole lot more setup and then execute, make it look like speed, but you're actually doing power, make it look like power, but actually you're doing speed, never looking like what you're actually doing. Yeah. So there's a lot that goes with it. Awesome. And that's awesome. Do you, and so is this a, so it's a book, right? Yeah. So it's actually, I don't even want to say it's a book, right? Yeah, so it's actually, I don't even want to say it's a book because it's something that I've personally

never seen before where it's a PDF document. But what you'll have is where there's like examples, I have a link above the example and that link will go to a GIF that will actually show a live clip of that with like pointing out things going in slow motion uh it's kind of like a video course in a book all in one that's awesome because that's what i was gonna ask i was gonna follow up questions i know you have a website i was curious if there was like

tutorials of how to do each movement or um anything like that so i mean that's huge especially thinking of i i looked a little bit over the website and just saying like, you know, it's like back when you were in high school, right? Like when we were all in high school, Twitter, Instagram, it wasn't as big as it is now where you can see kind of this coaching stuff online. So, so easily, but to have that all in one document and the link to go to a video to kind of look at it a different way. That's huge. Well, and you look at the way that people learn, some people learn, they can just read stuff and they can absorb it. Others, they need a picture. And I'd say the majority of people and the majority of football players are visual learners. I want to see the teach tape of what's the perfect way

to do this technique. And I want you to slow it down for me. I want you to point out what specifically I should be concentrating on. And, and I think that's what I've achieved in this book. And something that, that can be relied upon in that way. Awesome. Awesome. So let's get into a little bit more about your, your Michigan days. And, and so I think it was Jack, do you want to go ahead with with your first question there? Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, obviously Craig, you played for Michigan.

You know, you, you're an alumni of the university. What are you, what are your feelings on the state of Michigan football right now? Where do you think, how do you think fans should feel about it? Because I'm sure you've got a different perspective being a former player. And I'm sure it's probably a little frustrating. And at least I don't – I feel like that's how I might feel, would be frustrated with how the fans kind of feel about the program. Because personally, I feel like they're doing very well.

I mean, averaging almost 10 win seasons. But as a former player, how do you feel about the state of Michigan football? Well, here's the thing with Michigan is that a 10 win season is not enough. It's about winning big 10 championships. It's about really defeating Ohio State, who's been really a perennial program

in the country for a while now. I think we're at the place where it's like, yes, Michigan is a top tier program. It's a big time program. And it's been that way for, you know, even since I was there and, and we had a few hiccups during the rich rod era where, you know, we weren't winning a whole lot of games, not even a 10 win seasons. But I think Michigan's in the place where it's like they're they're like right under the elite tier of teams where you have like an Ohio State who year in and

year out is a really an honest contender for national championships Michigan I wouldn't say in a while and this is including even the teams that I played on, we haven't been serious contenders on the national stage for a while. And you got to think about, okay, what's the reason for that? And there's a couple reasons for that. Like, I think Michigan is getting, they're getting like really top tier recruits. They're getting um from what i have seen like and i don't pay a ton ton close attention to this but like you know top 10

recruiting classes every year um and but the thing is is like what you once you get the guys on the door you then you then need to develop them even further it's like you don't just put a chess piece out in the field and say, okay, now I'm going to drop all these different blitzes and whatnot. You know, we're developing players. And I think you are seeing an upward trend and more NFL talent coming from Michigan, all that sort of stuff. But it's the sort of thing where you look at what separates, I think, the top, top tier from just underneath the top tier is like how can you develop your players? And I think because scheme can only go so far. And you're going to win.

Football at the end of the day is who wins the most one-on-one matchups. Right? It's all these. It's hundreds of one-on-one matchups going throughout the game's all these, it's hundreds of one-on-one matchups going throughout the game. And you can scheme it. You can try to trick people. You can try to make it look like one thing or the other, but at the end of the day, it's one guy beating another. And if you can give a guy the tools to be able to do that, like when I was on the Panthers, they made the defense so simple and, and it was D-line that had to get pressure.

And it was the D-line that was given the tools to be able to get after the quarterback. And I think that's probably just the very next level is like developing the guys to where now they're winning those one-on-one matchups more and more and more. And I think that's really the difference. I've personally had it where I've had good coaching at Michigan. It was good fundamental coaching. But then I got coached by a guy named David Tolleson who played. He was like the only like, you know, try hard white guy on the New york giants defensive line who beat the

patriots he was playing with like justin tuck ozzy human europe yeah like a freaking star-studded cast and and he was like you know playing on their level and um and he coached me and he taught me his way of thinking about pass rush about the game and it up level I got that that's and after I had my conversation with him that's when I had my first three sack game and wow and it's it's it's that sort of stuff where it's like if you can up level your guys to be thinking at a whole new level I've personally seen it in my own career but you can tell the programs that are really like they have like technician coaches they're not just like setting up chess pieces and go here go here go here they're actually telling them like okay you gotta use the chop grab move against a low hand guy

you got you know they're teaching like the perfect bail technique for corners um you know it's that sort of stuff that separates i I think, the good programs from the elite national contenders. For sure. And I know that, like what you mentioned with, you know, 10-1 seasons aren't enough. It's Big Ten titles. It's national title contention. So are you kind of in agreement that the fans should not be satisfied with 10-1 seasons or how do you feel on that on that aspect inherently Michigan fans will not be satisfied with ever you're not you know what I'll actually I'll recant what I just said there but they'd be satisfied with a 10-1 if you're beating Ohio State and Michigan State yeah I think that would be satisfying but the fact that we have

not beaten Ohio State um really definitively for quite some time and it's you know I think that's just like uh uh it's just a stain on any Michigan coach's record and Ohio State's been I mean they've been a very very good team for a long time now it's like since since I've been paying attention to to college football you know they've been up there and I think that's that's the hurdle that I think Michigan's at and I know that Michigan fans will not be satisfied until we're just whooping Ohio State every single year. Yeah. You were actually on the last team that beat Ohio State in 2011. Yeah, I was told that and I was like, there's one that I think a lot of Michigan fans in recent memory are like very proud about right and where we had that strudel victory there against Virginia Tech that was like insane and then and then also beating Ohio State

that's just something that just makes you feel warm and fuzzy on the inside I remember going down on the field rushing the field with with your mom and dad after that game it was like you know yeah you were there for that one yeah yeah they were it was like it was you felt like we were we you felt like we were – we all felt like we were on top of the world. And it's crazy that Michigan fans and players and, you know, parents haven't had that feeling since, which, you know, obviously as a Michigan fan it's not fun that we haven't –

it's not great that we haven't had that feeling. Yeah. Yeah, what has Ohio State managed to do that we have not been able to do to continue to win those games yeah well and I think it goes back to what I was saying before is you develop your guys I think that's that's truly the and this is something that from my own personal career having ran into certain coaches that have, I honestly, I feel like some have made me twice as good. Like I wasn't thinking about password. Like when I ran into David Tolleson, he two X my, my ability to pass rush, to get after the quarterback and to be, be a better

defensive lineman. And, you know, as I said, I got a a three sack my first three sack game and I'd never done anything like that before and so I've personally felt it when I run into coaches who are absolute technicians and understand kind of like the fundamentals and the inner workings and they're almost like these like scientists who like just study like defensive line or whatever position they're coaching um that i think is the difference i think you have you can have like a great d coordinator you haven't have a great o coordinator but then you look at the position coaches you're looking at an ohio state their dline position coach has been he's produced like a first round draft picks every single year and he's had great talent to work with but Michigan has similar talent to work with

and so yeah right and you know five a few five stars and then versus a few four stars and you know in the recruiting process that's a that's a very close gap right yeah you know it's not that far yeah and I think that's I mean you look at like Chase Young you look at the Bosa brothers you look I mean you look at just like and I watch their I've been watching their film more as I've been getting more into like all this D-line education stuff you just look at their technique it's just it's perfect their technique is just great and and they're getting after the quarterback they're aggressive they're stopping the run and and I think that's that's where you see it like they pay their D- I mean, I think he's making half a million dollars a year. He probably earned that.

Oh, he did. And he's one of the top position coaches in the country. But, you know, I'll even give another example. You look at a Clemson. They've been producing top D-line talent. And you look at – you turn on their film, you can see the technique. You can see how they're they're strategizing and and they really have a great knowledge of the game and college kids aren't coming in knowing that it's their coach that's upgrading their knowledge of the game and looking at coaches

too I mean obviously you played for both Rich Rod and Brady Hoke I guess give us a little insight into into that and, you know, how maybe they helped your development or, I mean, as being a head coach, it's hard to be so hands-on because there's so many different groups to work with. But any insight you have on that, I mean, fill us in. Yeah. Well, Rich Rod was more of an offensive guy. And so he, his thing was the spread offense and bringing that to Michigan and trying to make that work in the Big Ten. My specific coach was Greg Robinson, who had coached in the NFL, who had coached at Texas as well. And my freshman year, we were playing his defense.

It was like a 3-4 sort of defense. And I was like the stand- linebacker kind of quick, they called it the quick position, but I was working a lot from the line of scrimmage and he, I mean, he just did a great job of I mean, I could figure out quite a few things myself, but he just put me in like good positions to like, you know, I was like a freshman and you know,

like every running back in the big 10 was like bigger than me I was like 230 pounds and like I don't know if you guys remember John Clay at Wisconsin but the guy was like 250 pounds you know there were running like power every single play with like 16 offensive linemen nothing's changed yeah exactly Wisconsin and um yeah so he he we were working I was personally working within a defense that you know I I just was able to um you know understand he just made it very clear what what needed to be done and and you know thankfully I could achieve it um then when like Brady Hoke came in my junior year that's when I ran into Greg and Greg Madison who I mean he's a tough tough coach um he's a guy who you take a step six inches straight instead of six inches

diagonal when you were supposed to take a diagonal step it's like oh minus minus minus minus like the grade sheets after the game are tough you know he's got the he's also a catholic too so it's like the uh the good the staunch uh legalism of the catholics as well like coming into the coaching sphere but um no, but he was a guy who, you know, when you're looking at what it means to be accountable, what it means to, to be consistent. I mean, he's a guy that, that I think taught me that. But it's funny, when I started going into, I'm such like a perfectionist, and like all this stuff that, like, you stuff that I would get so analytical that, oh, I didn't take a six-inch step one way or the other, and I'm beating myself up over it. When I got to the pros, it wish I had learned a little bit sooner.

Had I not been such a little, you know, goody two shoe wanting to do nice things for coach all the time. But, but yeah, those are the, some of the lessons I've learned. It's interesting. You, you mentioned Madison being such a stickler and cause he's now at Ohio state. And so it probably fits very well into them being such a stickler and because he's now at ohio state uh and so it probably fits very well into them being such technicians on you know on their techniques and getting into that so he's probably you know it's probably just feeding into that and making them you know the chase youngs

where the chase young has a he has a ridiculous body to work with right like superhuman almost but then if you can make him a technician too on that it's like all right how can you even possibly stop watch out yeah yeah yeah well and i think um the thing about madison too with ohio state is he's brought all of michigan's way of thinking into the ohio state. And he knows how Harbaugh's thinking about this, thinking about that. And it just gives them a leg up in strategy. I mean, that's like such a middle finger to Michigan. And I think specifically to Harbaugh, and he's a guy who recruited me when, when I was in high school, actually, he was at Stanford at the time.

And the guys, I mean, he's just one of those, like one of the most competitive people that you could like competitive, like it's like a family gathering and you're playing a board game and he flips the table level of competitiveness.iveness and and i think it's like he's just a very intense guy and if you're not getting along with like it's just it's it's i think when especially when you're not winning as much and you're with him you go like okay is this worth it yeah yeah because he can ruffle some feathers i think that's just the the um just his personality and in the football world it's it does draw those sorts of intense personalities like his um but at the end of the day you are going to make some enemies by being that competitive

well and he you know i remember you and your dad talking about when he was recruiting you and him just being the weirdest guy right I mean you had I remember you saying some things like he would call you but then there'd be like you know minutes of silence and he you know it was just like very odd compared to a lot of the other coaches um that recruited you so do you have any other stories about when Harbaugh was recruiting you well no that that's the main one is when he uh I mean he called and was like hey Craig like how's it going I'm like doing well coach just like you know working on a school project it's like two minutes of silence i'm like so how's recruiting going coach like yeah yeah going real well it's like another minute of silence i'm like

okay coach i'm gonna like go work on my project now and it's like yeah yeah like it sounds great and uh so it was a it was um it was an interesting, you can, he's like thinking about things in the, but you could hear him like, you know, his mind was like, just thinking about, I don't know if he's doing like calculus in his brain or something, what he was thinking about. But, you know, the guy is definitely, he's a unique individual. I'll say that. Yeah. You know, the guy is definitely – he's a unique individual. I'll say that.

Yeah. And the one other thing I remember was I remember when you went and visited Stanford. And I think the next day you visited USC where Pete Carroll was the coach at the time. And I think you compared the two practices and it was like Pete Carroll was like down to the second. Like, you know, everybody's on time. Everybody's on top of it. And then Jim Harrolls was like down to the second like you know everybody's on time everybody's on top of it and then jim harbaugh's at stanford was kind of sloppy and

kind of weird was that i am i remembering that right yeah so the jim harbaugh's was um his would like i just remember seeing the d lineman there and they were all kind of like fat and like rolling around and it's like I was like man these guys don't look very athletic and then I went to the USC practice and I'm like Everson Griffin was there who I actually played against him in high school he's like in high school he was like 260 6'4 and he was playing running back which is scary in high school where like offensive linemen are like 180 pounds high school so pretty crazy but um then i go to you to the usc practice and like pete carroll's like very like hollywood he's like you know pulling pranks on guys yeah pulling pranks on guys guys are like russian he's got just like the mojo going you know he pulling pranks on guys. Yeah. Pulling pranks on guys. Guys are like rushing. He's got just like the mojo going, you know,

he's like kissing babies on the sideline, signing autographs. And then he does, you know, the whole USC pitch to me. And, um, uh, and this was actually after a camp that I did with them, but they offered me after the camp and then uh uh like a couple you know I said you know thanks coach for the for the offer and I like I go to like handshake him and he goes no we hug here brother and then like he's like me and my hands like caught in between here and so girl with like trying get my hand out and i'm like this is so crazy and uh you can pull that off right now i'm too awkward

and um yeah so pete carroll and jim harbaugh are very very different personalities uh in that you know pete's this like hollywood selling the vision I mean he's so good at that and then Harbaugh is just this like ultra competitive kind of like almost like very cerebral very like kind of like inward like thinking sort of guy yeah and one other thing about Harbaugh that I've learned from just people that are around the program now at Michigan is that he does really really well with these three-star guys who are like you know blue collar always putting in the work and he can really develop them but when it comes to the five-star guys that are kind of prima donnas you know he's

expecting everybody to put in the same amount of prima donnas you know he's expecting everybody to put in the same amount of work and not you know give or give and take with anybody that is um you know thinks they're above anybody else um and some of those five-star guys don't really like him that much some of the better athletes and football players at Michigan don't like him as much as the three-star guys. So I wanted to ask you about, you know, was there any favoritism when you were there from, you know, I guess any time in your career when it's like the big MVP types guys are like the, you know, the stars versus the,

is there any different way that coaches treat those guys or a good way to go about it? Yeah, I'll, I'll give an example so I was Rich Rod's first full recruiting class and I and you know coming in I know I came as a and as a freshman and beat out um Brandon Heron who was a guy that was not recruited by Rich Rod now I worked my butt off and you know I had a really good camp, like all that. But I think at the end of the day, you want, if you're the head coach, you want to look like a genius, right? And if you're bringing your guys in who you've evaluated, you understand them,

you've, all your staff and your coaches have looked them in the eye, offered them a scholarship, understand who they are. There's this naturally going to be favoritism there. If you have a guy who you recruited't recruit. I don't think it's a conscious thing. I think it's a very subconscious thing. But you just have a little bit more trust in them because you're saying, I've evaluated them more. I've looked at them more. I've understood kind of where see those like unconscious biases like playing out in that world. But the more practical way it plays out is that the guys who are your recruiting class, you want them to rise up in ranks quickly. And it's the same thing for like nfl guy's a first round draft pick he's playing it doesn't matter if you're performing better than him

that's who the scouting department chose and that's who they're going to develop yeah it's interesting because i mean in the nfl obviously there's the gms and so many other guys that are telling people who to play and all that stuff. And so I think it's interesting to see, too, now, you know, Jim Harbaugh has kind of taken a little hands-off approach more than he has before. He's more the CEO type. I remember Rich Rod, when we went to the family day practice, it was like, I mean, he's doing every single thing. He's calling the plays, you know, on offense. He was really into it.

And then a lot of times when you guys, I remember when you were on defense, he's forcing, he's not even a defensive guy, but he's forcing Coach Robinson to run a specific defense. And I remember you guys were like, what the heck's going on some of those times you know I I remember specifically when we went to that Penn State game when you guys were on the road I think you tapped yourself out at some at one point because you didn't know what the heck was going on um because and so like I think there's so much more to all that stuff that on the inside that fans don't see um and so i don't know any anything on that yeah i i think well and i respect the like ceo way of doing it i mean there are some coaches where for example like a pete carroll he's more of like a defensive guy he came up through the defensive ranks and so he understands that world and is able to give helpful advice.

But ultimately, and whether you're in football or outside of football, you've got to't going to want to be with you because they're not able to have autonomy. They're not able to call their own place to figure stuff out. If anything, as a CEO, you're of service. You're a servant to them and you're trying to enable them to raise them up even higher. Because if you raise them up, they'll raise you up. Now, at the end of the day, the head coach can come in and veto whatever, right? It's their neck on the line. But the way I see it is that unless you give, if you're a CEO, and unless you give the people

under you autonomy and a feeling like they can make decisions on their own there there's just going to be constant frustration there and and I'd imagine that's probably why Madison left yeah it makes sense I think that's one of those things where you said Jim Harbaugh can ruffle some feathers he probably ruffled some feathers there with with Madison and you know I don't know who knows what actually happened but I imagine that he maybe got too involved and Madison said you know what Urban Meyer or Ryan Day you know at Ohio State is going to let me do my thing and I'm going to go down there and keep kicking your ass you know pretty much. I know you kind of touched on this a little bit in terms of matchups, but if you had to point to maybe just one thing,

if you had to give us just one parting piece of wisdom, what would be that one thing that needs to happen for Michigan to beat Ohio state? Oh man. No pressure. I'm not educated enough to i haven't watched the film i feel like i can't say anything about it i haven't watched the film i'm just gonna say because i'm writing a book on pass rush pass rush there you go there you go

get the book on pass rush perfect way to sell it all the michigan d linemen have the pass rush bible then they'll beat ohio state that's exactly there you go there you go Perfect. Way to sell it. If all the Michigan D linemen have the Pass Rush Bible, then they'll beat Ohio State. Exactly. There you go. There you go. Well, let's plug you again here one more time. Where can they find the Pass Rush Bible? Yeah, so it's at craigrowe.com slash pass dash rush. And that's craigrowe.com slash pass dash rush and that's craig row roh.com slash pass dash rush and that's where they can

find it awesome and then they can follow you on twitter at craig row as well yeah that's at craig row for all my accounts instagram twitter um yeah you can find me on there don't have tiktok yet not have been practicing my renegade dance, though. I've seen you do some dancing back in the day. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, it's coming, but not yet, though. All right.

Good to hear it. Good to hear it. Well, thanks again for coming on. This was awesome. You know, hopefully we can have you again at some point. Hopefully Michigan has a good season. We've got football coming up. You know, NFL's can have you again at some point. Hopefully Michigan has a good season. We've got football coming up. You know, NFL's obviously been on SEC.

Finally, we have some Big Ten football up here in the Midwest. Thank you for coming on again, and we will see you all next time. All right. See you. Go Blue. Go Blue. Go Blue. Go Blue.

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