Blurry Creatures - EP: 108 Creatures You'll See on DMT with Jed Payne

Episode Date: June 1, 2022

Ex-addict and super podcaster Jed Payne from Church and Other Drugs makes his second appearance on the show--this time to talk about the Blurry Creatures people see on psychedelic drugs. From machine elves to shadow people, how is it that multitudes of people across the planet seem to see the same entities when taking certain drugs? Jed talks about his own experiences and the things he has seen and the dangers of trying to access the spirit world. Are these shared experiences all in the mind or are people actually seeing creatures behind the veil?  Guest: Jed Payne  Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen Outro Song: On The Run timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story, they're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say, what is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December.

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for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. Out of like every chemical that I've done, it's the only one where I truly saw things in a three-dimensional space that were not there. Interacted with, spoke, her auditory hallucinations, visual, like saw people and things that just weren't there. And that's where I would see the shadow people. And I remember one distinct night where as soon as I turned the lights off, these beings would descend from the ceiling and they would. like rise up from the floor. Rise up from the floor.

Rise up from the floor. I wrote this down on my journal and it was that since Nephilim got punished, since the watchers got punished for physically procreating, they figured out that they can promulgate their spirits through drugs. So they can still communicate through people through these hallucinogenic experiences.

The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it's right to bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal.

Well, Jed, a lot has happened since our episode with you. I think it was episodes. Yeah, dude, what is Enoch, right? Yeah. The Book of Enoch. I listen to it. I listen to it every night. Going to sleep, Jeff doesn't hear your voice.

That's how he racked up so many people. plays. Well, that was really around the time when you full pivoted to like what the show is now. Yeah. Because it was originally just a straight up like cryptids. Yeah. And then you, we hold, we hold loosely to that still, Jen. It just. Well, of course. Of course. Of course. This is broad. Broad strokes. Yes. Yes. I don't, I don't remember Nate like what you, because you had started texting me, someone you had stumbled onto about the Nephlam stuff and you were texting me about it. And I was like, oh, oh, he's like, he's like, he's like, Heiser. He's like, I was like, four years ago when I had just stumbled upon it and it blew my mind.

The conspiracy theory to end all conspiracy theories. Yeah, I was telling him from the other day. I grew up in like 25 different Christian circles between all the girls that I liked in in various youth groups to camps to, you know, Christian organizations to bands that were quasi-Christian. And nobody talked about any of this stuff, but we all knew the Bible, but we didn't understand, you know, you get to a point where you're like, I don't understand any of this old, basically the Old Testament was kind of like, everyone just put a big question mark over it. And now it's like, it's crazy, but I get it, you know? Yeah. It really puts the Bible into a cohesive narrative. Exactly. But it really, yeah, I still haven't

heard of anyone that goes to a church that talks about that kind of thing. Chuck Missler had a church that did. There are pastors who- There's one down the street. Talk about our podcast, Nate. That's right. Is there really? Conduit church is down the street from where I live.

And they, for whatever reason, I got a buddy that goes there. So shout out to the condo of church people out there. But I guess that some of the leadership there, pastor there, they listen to the show. and we're lucky to have them. They shouted out in the service. And my buddy Dave is like, oh, I know, I know one of those guys.

There's on the street. What? And they're like, what? It's gotten wild, Jed. Like, a lot of Christian artists that I never thought would be into this stuff are following us all of a sudden.

And pastors shouting out from stage, like Luke said. I think everyone's waking up. Yeah. What was that conference you went to? Tim Balbarino's conference. That's crazy. I think it's interesting that you're saying,

Nate, back to all the circles. I think it speaks to the idea that like, and we've said this before, this is not like a new mantra, but the idea that people just don't know what's in their Bible. It's so often I think we just listen to whoever filters it for us, right? And the reality is that most of the people filtering it, you know, as we were growing up, Nate, and probably in a lot of ways in the Western Church are filtering it through sort of, you know, through a very narrow, very academic sort of quasi-enlightenment, you know, lens.

Medieval. Right. And I think that's why Heiser is such a paradigm shift in some ways for a lot of people, right? And, you know, we talk about Bigfoot being the gateway drug, but understanding these things around us that don't really make sense in that worldview really makes you wonder, okay, now we started looking at the Hebrew, and it's not at all what we thought it was necessarily. It's, or maybe it's just, it's much more than we thought it was. Maybe it's not, it is, and I think that's probably more accurate.

And then some. And then some, yeah. It's funny. I had this conversation with my old boss yesterday. I guess he's reading some book called, like reading the Bible through like Western culture or something. And he was talking about how a lot, it's been like a game of telephone from poorly educated preachers that have just,

we all just take these things for granted, like, because it's just been passed down. And I want to shout this book out. I'm rereading it because I love it. one of my favorite authors, Philip Yancey. He was an editor for Christianity today for a long time. He writes amazing books, but it's called The Bible Jesus Read,

and it's basically all about why the Old Testament matters and why it's important. So I will shout that out to anyone that's curious about it. Shut up to Yancey. We need to write one, you know, like our changing bodies from junior high. You know what I mean? Oh, my gosh. Our changing church body. That's good.

That took a hard right turn there. Where's he going with this? That just reminded me of the sex ed video we had to watch in middle school. And it had, it was like straight from 1986. And it was two neon outlines of a male and female body, just the silhouettes. And the narrator was like, at a certain age, the young male's body gets activated. and then it like starts flashing red like, watch out.

I always thought that was hilarious. That's how I felt spiritually. At a certain point, you get to a certain age and your spiritual body gets activated, right? Yeah. In a cheesy, weird way, I think Luke and I were just like, who cares what people think about us?

Let's just go down the trail. Let's just follow the trail. Like L.A. Marzuli says, the trail of the Nephilim. And when you go down the trail, you have to have sort of a scientific person. Like, I'm just going to keep following the cards and the data where it goes. And I'm not going to try to craft this narrative.

And I think Luke and I are old enough to where we're like, I don't care if all of our friends think we're nuts. So we're still going to do it. We're still going to like ask the questions, do the interviews, make the material, put it out in the world. And a lot of people are afraid, Jed. They're just afraid of what people are going to think about them. Right. And it's like, it's fine. it's fine to be, you know, you're not going to be 100% right.

You're not going to be 100% wrong. Like it's, it's, it's more, because I've listened to a ton of your episodes where I'm like, I don't think that's right at all. But I, but this is what I like about it is that it's kind of the whole. And people have lost this art where if you're really curious about something, go listen to an argument for it, go listen to an argument against it and come to your own conclusion. And that's like what I was doing where I was like listening. It's like, okay, you know, do I, I've heard this. I've heard this what I think. And some things, I'm like,

yeah, that makes complete sense. And some things I'm like, I don't know. But we're not willing to, we're not willing to deviate from things like the giants existed. Like, sure, sure, I think we've proven that. Like how big, where, you know. And I've, I've been, like, Matt Carter famously ridiculed me for that when, Joey brought me on Bad Christian to talk about it. Yeah. But yeah, I do. I believe that was...

And we all know those guys, too. Dude, oh yeah. Dude, I know those guys real well. Yes. Historically and factually true. I do think so. Exactly. That's actually going to be one of the...

If there's one thing we've done on this show, it's proved that point right there. That's the one thing, I think, in the first 100 episodes, we've really wanted to hammer home. And we think we did. I'm trying to make... So are you, like, familiar with Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson. Okay, so

it's, I'm trying to meld it in my mind and get like a working combined theory, but their whole thing about the younger driest cataclysm that happened in what 13,000 or 15,000 years ago

that that is what would have wiped out Atlantis and all that. that's essentially what I'm thinking as like the flood. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I know you're talking about. Yeah. That's a working thing in my mind.

Or at least that was the end of the old civilizations. The golden age. The golden age. Whoever built the pyramids, whoever built the pyramids in South America, all the ancient technologies, Atlantis, all that stuff. Yeah. And we've gotten into all those weeds trying to build a pretty, good case for the golden age what it was like and the weird thing is it just gets more difficult

to understand because you have all these empires all over the world and they are like many atlantis in peru even in japan you know and they were building some of that stuff even in north america like we look at this we we tracked down this book of this they found this ancient temple in tennessee of all places when building a dam it was like uh it was like the giants were building they were starting to build some. Or the wall in Texas? Oh yeah, the rock wall in Texas is another thing.

You know, it's kind of an pseudo-Egyptian like sort of temple thing. There's one, there was one of the Grand Canyon. We had a member's episode about that too. All kinds of weird stuff you can't explain. What were they? Yeah, I think it may a good point, Jed.

I think that like there's a huge miss today in in discourse and the idea that like, it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to, to want to think about things. And I think people work backwards. They have this idea of what they want to be and they want this and they craft the narrative backwards.

Like, you know, cherry pick. This is what's happening in our society. Everybody cherry picks the things they want. They're trying to support and they throw out everything else. And I don't think that's what Nate and I ever wanted. We always wanted to be on the journey as well, right? And ask some questions. Like there's a ton of weird stuff in the Bible.

What do we do with that? There's weird stuff people who are seeing. What do we do with that? And we know what we believe, right? And we want to look at that through a biblical lens because that's the foundation for us. And Bigfoot gives you the permission to get weird. Yeah. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

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To me, it's the remarkably advanced vehicle. Really? To me, it's the runway approved vehicle for its amazing style. What about remarkably adaptable vehicle because of its versatile cargo space? Or really admired vehicle? Oh, or really awesome vehicle. It really is the recreational activity vehicle. The stylish 2026 Toyota Rav4 Limited.

What's your Rav for? Well, and even in talking about what I was saying, about hearing an argument for and an argument against, like the anthropology class I just had to take in college, I have never rolled my eyes more during, it's like, oh, okay, so for 350,000 years humans were just like, perthur, I'm just going to hit something with a rock. And then magically one day just decided to like get smart. Like, my, my, summation of that anthropology class was like a history of people just accidentally discovering these like and that's kind of what I'm going to talk about today with with drugs especially that

that's one of my like I have yet to really hear a convincing argument otherwise that makes sense to me it just seems like so blind faith I'll kind of put well what a great segue yeah what a great It's like you've done this before. Welcome. Listen to you, church and other drugs. Exactly. Welcome back to the podcast, Jed. I'm going to try not to call you Jed, because you said I did that once.

We had Judd. We need Jed's, Judds. You called Judd, though, and that made me feel happy. Yep. I liked that. The opposite. Okay, good. Okay, good. But welcome back to blurry creatures or to the grandfather of helping me into the blurry space.

Thanks for encouraging me. to get blurry. Yeah. And it was a big part of, you know, starting blurry creatures. And, you know, I came on your podcast a couple times, church and other drugs. Yeah. And where you talk about your experiences with recovery and drugs. And we just had Amy and Kara on our show talking from the Not So Secret Society's podcast,

which just comes out today, that episode. And she talks about seeing Grays while on. drugs and psychedelics and you know doing the show jed like i've thought about it a lot that the corruption of creation they were messing with everything i'm wondering if these the watcher tech spread to psychedelics and drugs and plants and they were teaching them like oh hey if you eat this mushroom you're going to go to you're going to go to outer space you ready well check it it's it's right in the text right okay so i love it let's go so we're going to talk about talking about the blurry creatures of drugs. That was what I,

that was, that was the bow I wanted to wrap on that. Yes, yes. And so, this is out of the Book of Enoch. So there were 13 named watchers and they were named because they were attributed certain things they taught

humanity. Okay, like Azazel taught men to make swords, daggers, shields, and the beautifying of the eyelids. So we have him to thank for for cat eye and smoky eye. Thank you. Smokey.

What a solid contribution. For real. So a Meserac taught all those who cast spells and cut roots. Armoros, the release of spells. Cut roots. Yeah, I'll get there. And Cocubial portents. So, and in some of the translations, it's Pharmakia.

So basically, we have an original. attribution of who taught men what plants to eat for drugs, right? So on not to be full, this is a bad thing. We all, you know, because of, you know, all modern medicine, except for strictly synthetics come from plant sources and even synthetics, they get the ideas from plants, right? So it was a good thing, you know, antibiotics, all sorts of things, well, that's a different class, but, you know, pain relievers, anti-anxiety meds, all sorts of things we learn from plants. My, my question for anthropologists, let's take ayahuasca, for example, DMT. How many, how many plant species would you reckon are in the

Amazon? Millions. Lots. Lots and lots and lots and lots. One million. Yeah, yeah, with the, with the Dr. Evil. So, so we're led to believe that early humans somehow took a vine that was a, so DMT in the plant form is not biorely bioactive, which means you can't get an effect from it by eating because of something called monoamine oxidase inhibitors that are in your body. or monoamine oxidase. What you need is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor to prevent the monoamine oxidase

from breaking down the chemical. So what they did was they took a vine, which had the DMT, and then a plant that was an MAOI, combined them, and bam, you have a bioavailable oral form of DMT that works. How do you think, how would you figure that out without someone telling you?

Like, the narrative is trial and error. That's what they say, trial and error. They just figured it out. I can't think of a reason why you would do that. Number one, either they got extraordinarily lucky or like Enoch says, they were taught. which Occam's Razor makes a whole lot more sense to me. Yeah. You have you have the early Mayans that were really big in,

they were their war gods. And one Mayan leader specifically communicated with his god through Aminita mascara mushrooms. That was how he talked to him. And if you ask them like their records, they were being told how to do these things. How did you know how to build the temples? We were told.

How did you know how to do this? We were told, right? So that makes sense to me that humans were taught how to make these chemicals. I mean, you would have had to have the scientific wherewithal to understand the compounds, right? And then this goes with this and goes with this. Right. Yeah, it seems it seems very, very much a far fetch. I mean, if you're playing the other thing.

that we hear, right, is if you play the devil's advocate to our, to this point and to your point, probably our point is, well, if you had millions of years to just to keep trying, and it's just like, man, I don't, I don't know how you just keep trying stuff until it, why would you keep trying? Until it shoots you into the stratosphere, right? Like, it just doesn't, it's a tough one. I mean, not only do we talk about how, you know, they say the Native Americans built these mounds in North America, just the mounds themselves, but they needed advanced

mathematics to build these mounds because they're advanced trigonometry in terms of how they're built. And some of these things, you can only see what they are from space. So you get up way up high and you can see what they were building. You're like, how did they, how did they know how to build it perfect if they didn't have, you know, aerial vehicles. And that's just, that's just a great height. Right. Yeah. And that's, and that's just one, that's just one faction. You're talking about all kinds of you know mystery you know sex of of knowledge that we weren't supposed to have and far makia is just one of them but on our show we've talked about several of them being you know they had to have gotten this knowledge from something that was superior to them and what and you

you talked about the grays i mean you know where that you know where we get the grays from right Crowley yeah from Crowley so that's this week's episode. That's why it's so cool that this episode's coming out right after we're putting out the Crowley episode. That's what we're talking about this week. No, hey, I think it might be good to level set just for a quick second, though, for people that aren't super familiar, right? Yeah, yeah. So we talk about ayahuasca. That's a South American tea that the natives, the natives make. So just, just, and it's become, it's really come into sort of its own, I think, in the last. It has, Iwaska tourism is huge. There's retreats. I mean, I was watching a surf,

a surfing documentary and they were doing these ayahuasca yoga retreats where they would go on these spirit journeys, right? And literally what it is it's a tea and it was prepared the way we just talked about. You get the DMT becomes

orally active and DMT is dimethyl trptamine, which is a very powerful and what the scientific community would call a lucogenic, right? We know and we know that all of these things things that these are, and this is when Nate and I talked about in our last episode as well,

these are ways to access the spiritual realm. These are ways to access other realms. And just like you eloquently pointed out, it was taught by the Watchers and Pharmakia, which I think is not at all a coincidence is that word itself means sorcery, magic, the practice of magic arts. It also has a prior, the Farmer Khan has a primary meaning poison. So you have these crazy things that we're supposed to suppose that humans just tripped into and figured, that's a pun right there, but tripped into to figure out what they were doing, right? And it's an absurd. You're right. The more obvious answer is that we were taught, just like you said, like the South American Kings, and we're told how to build and what to build and how to communicate. But because

of the rise of this and because we're going to talk about the Greys and because we talked about Alastair Crowley in our last episode here, there is so much. much relevance, I think, where we're on this, on this journey, understanding that, because we've talked about the realms, Nate. We've talked about, you know, accessing the realms and what people are seeing. I kind of just wanted to level set there, Jed, because I don't know how I'll experience everybody. I forget to define terms. Right. Just just so we can make sure everybody's, everybody's riding in the same boat right now. You're deep down the rabbit hole. Yeah. But, yeah. No, no, no. Continue now because I think it didn't, you're starting on a good point.

So we, we talked to Kara last week. And she's saying that, One of the things that she saw on her hallucinogenic trips and journeys, whatever you want to call them, she saw the grays. So, yeah, and I wanted to talk a little bit about the things I've seen and kind of my, like what, like what I think about all that. Because I've flip-flopped. I also kind of maybe at the end, and I've had the question too, right, of, okay, God created everything, you know, and everything was good. So is there a purpose in God's creation for things like mushrooms, for things like ayahuasca? And I mean, mushrooms need no preparation whatsoever. You literally, they grow, you ingest them, they do their thing.

Same with things like peyote. Like ayahuasca, you have to do a little tampering to, but things like peyote and mushrooms, it just is what it is. So it's like, hmm, is there? And I know a lot of people, especially recently, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill W., famously later in his life, he had this massive, he called it a white light spiritual experience in a hospital room, which is partly what prompted him to found Alcoholics Anonymous. Later in his life, LSD had just come around and he wanted to have another spiritual experience. and he dabbled in LSD and did. And even they've since kind of retracted it as like, maybe that's not such a great idea,

which I agree with. But he even was like, hey, if people are having trouble with spiritual experiences, give them some LSD and that'll certainly do the trick, which is true. I also, I just want to get this out of the way because I hate.

As someone who has tripped extensively, I cannot stand the argument that Christianity was just some mushroom cult. or like that the whole Bible was all of the visions were just, you know, they were just tripping. And that's what it's like, it doesn't work that way. Like I've never, I would not be willing to die and be martyred for something I believed on a mushroom trip. It just, it just doesn't work that way. Right. We had 11 of 12 disciples.

Yes. 10 of 11 essentially die, die for their faith. Yes. It wasn't because. they went trippy-dippy. Horrible, horrible suffering, humiliating, excruciating deaths. Not only that, but we have just thousands of prophecies in scripture that have come true. It's such a weak argument.

All the geography is accurate, all the ancient stories. And we just keep digging up more and more on our show and going, wow, the Bible is so much more. loaded and fascinating and intense. Even in some of the things that just like, what, you know, we've talked a lot about Mount Hermon and just that, that one mountain and that one region.

And then you see this, in Bashan, they have these giant snake mounds. And they're building the same structures all over the world, the same ones that they talk about in the Old Testament. And you're like, well, those are in our backyard,

you know? And, and like there was, there was an argument that the burning bush, that Moses? Is that right? Yeah, Moses saw people were like, that was the acacia bush, which grows in the region and also has DMT in it. And people were like, oh, that's exactly what it was. It was this burning bush. But Hamilton Morris from Vice famously actually tested it and he got a crap ton of acacia bushes,

burned them. And he was like, yeah, that's not true. It's not enough to do anything. So it's things like I just want, if anyone has heard those arguments before, if you have the lived experience of like doing these things, it just doesn't work that way. It's not going to provide these. You're going to, you know, a month later, you're going to question even what you saw. But so my my journey with hallucinogens and psychedelics started in very frightening fashion. It's surprising that I kept going with it, but with things like Benadryl and dramine, okay, which might surprise some people, but those are incredibly potent hallucinogens. The class that they're in is actually called delirients. They're based, they're in the same family as a plant, angel trumpets.

If you've seen those flowers and jimson weed and scopolamine, have you ever seen some movies? where it's like in third world tribes, they'll blow that called devil's breath. They'll blow a white powder in someone's face and turn them into a zombie. You familiar with that? Yeah. I mean, that that age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that's scopolamine, which is actually in emotion sickness medication. There's some, it's funny what's, you know, like, what's at the grocery store and what its origins are. So these are incredibly, incredibly potent things, right? And as a young, young kid, I was taking them. And that was the first time I experienced what are colloquially.

I can never say it. Colocally, say it for me. Colocally? See, it's tough. The shadow people. Have you all heard the shadow people?

Yeah. So you're saying like when you're just, it's kind of like Lil Wayne, like you're just drinking like cough syrup and enough enough of it like in the same way. You're taking enough of this. Yes. A Benadryl and Dramine to. to Guzzi the trip.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Which you have to take a lot. And it's a very, hopefully no one's thinking that's a good idea. It's a very unpleasant and terrifying experience. It's the only out of like every chemical that I've done,

it's the only one where I truly saw things in a three-dimensional space that were not there. interacted with, spoke, auditory hallucinations, visual saw people and things that just weren't there. And that's where I would see the shadow people. And I remember one distinct night where as soon as I turned the lights off,

these beings would descend from the ceiling and they would rise up from the floor, kind of like you remember that show Alex Mac, the secret world of Alex Mac? I never watched it. But when you do that little emotion, you look like one of those little, like a marionette almost. Like the inflatable dudes in front of car dealerships.

Like how they inflate, that's like how they came out of the floor. Like they would kind of like corporealize out of the floor. Always in corners, leering and staring. And it was accompanied by a feeling of it felt like the upside down. Like, that's a great, that's a great modern. How do you know they weren't there? That's what I'm saying. Like, they may have been.

They may have been. I don't know. Like, it, the feeling now, it really seems like someone flip the light switch and you are in, or like the movie Silent Hill where like you're in the same room, but you're in the same room in a parallel reality. Because, well, because I mean, we've gotten a lot of emails like that, Jed. like people see this stuff. It's not, it doesn't sound like everyone's taking drugs when they're seeing it. It sounds like a lot of people are, they don't want to see it. So they're not obviously inducing it.

So I, it makes me wonder. I know. And it could very well be, and I've thought a lot about this. And it's, it could be that it creates thin spots. It creates veils. It could be switching the, the vibration of, you know, the, wavelengths your, you know, this is like a pet theory, but how they called Lucifer the Angel of Light. And when you're on hallucinogens, your pupils are fully dilated, letting in as much light as possible. And that is probably has something to do with what you're seeing differently. That's very much a pet theory that's not backed by anything other than like, hmm, that's an interesting thing. I wonder if that has anything to do with anything. Because it's cats and dogs and birds and different and insects especially can essentially

see the things around us like did you know that humans like have stripes what like under under certain wavelengths like we have stripes didn't know that I didn't either that's crazy what do you mean light uh yeah like like like like we um like you know how things look under a black light, like under a certain wavelength, we have some sort of like markings on us. Look it up. It's crazy. Like zebras. Something like that.

Or zebra. Zebra. It was zebra if you're Canadian. Zebra. So it was, so after that, I, I moved on to, to things like mushrooms. Things like that really, really do. They open my eyes to. the absolute certainty that what we see is not all there is.

And the fact that modern science, with all its bells and whistles, still has very little idea of how these chemicals do what they do. They infer that it has something to do with H.T. 2A. serotonin receptors and it may do this and it may do that, but they really have no clue. There's no agreed upon. They don't even know why we need to sleep. We don't know what sleep is. You know, there's all these like talking about what you were saying earlier, Luke, about things

that people just take for granted, like, oh, yeah, we need to sleep. We dream. They don't know why. Like, evolutionarily, how does it make sense that at the most dangerous part of the day when it's dark, our body's like, all right, time to shut off. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense.

And we don't know why. And everyone's always chatting in our channels and saying us that when you are asleep, you are spiritually vulnerable. It would make sense. Not only physically vulnerable to like animals and wolves and things. You have to build some kind of shelter, but you are spiritually vulnerable to, you know, dreams and attacks. I mean, we're going to interview several people.

Sleep paralysis. Yeah. It's nonstop. I mean, we've had. Probably half of the weird experiences that people send to us on email is something to do with them. They were sleeping. It was nighttime. It doesn't make any sense to me.

So here's a question for you, Jed. Just, we know after doing this show that things are in the world that shouldn't have been in the world. Right. Right. So the giants weren't supposed to be here. They took something and they messed with it. And then all of a sudden we had this race of beings that weren't supposed to be here. and they were here a long time.

And they did the same thing with animals. And we had these chimerical creatures that some people emailed us and said their great grandfather saw them, you know? And you're like, and we have sightings like Bigfoot. And a lot of people think it's in that, you know, category of something that shouldn't be here that's still here. Perverted nature. Perverted nature.

Are there plants and mushrooms and things that shouldn't be here that are here? What I think, what I've kind of come to, is that so I believe that coca leaves, the opium poppy, marijuana, what else? Things as they occur in nature, I think absolutely God put them here because we break our bones, because we skin our knees, because X, Y, Z. But we have taken these things and concentrated, it. extracted. I mean, you know, fruits ferment naturally. But to make ever clear, you got to, you know, really put some work into it. And heat it up and really. Yeah. So it's like I absolutely think these these naturally occurring things were a gift. And and probably, well, Noah was was like the first recorded alcoholic. But I was going to say like probably like, you know, the way things occur in in nature, it was probably. probably difficult to become like addicted as, as we see today with these things that are just

like hyper. Oh gosh, I can't think of the word. They're just ultra manipulated. Yes. Yes. Hyper concentrated. Hyper concentrated. That's what I'm right. It's the idea of the concentration levels that we're able to manipulate it up into like you said, to like an Everclear to like a 98% alcohol. Yeah. And even. Yeah. Normal fermentation. If you would even do something just a very low, low grade like mead or something has a very tiny or even wine has a very small and small amount of it's really you know 10 12 percent 15 percent like if you're going to do you know not cook things necessarily right or right so or even just i've heard a lot of people talk about weed that like weed 50 years ago is so much even when i was in high school compared to weed now is

unbelievable unbelievable it's a it's a completely different It's a whole different ballgame. They're just breeding the heck out of it. And there's hundreds of different strains. Oh, yeah, thousands, I'm sure. I mean, that's just one plant. So perhaps the weed plant was here. And you know, maybe it was, you could use it for medicine.

And now it's just ultra-concentrated. They've bred. They've crossed species. They've done all kinds of things. And they've made it so potent where you smoke it now. And you almost have like a, you almost have a loose. You trip. Yeah.

eating it especially, you can absolutely hallucinate like crazy. Even LSD, which people want to say is this synthetic thing is just ergot fungus. Right. It can grow on wheat, which some people think that may have been what the Salem Wits trials were about. I've heard that. Yeah. Which

you know, maybe that seems like it would have taken quite a lot. But, you know, all these things Yeah, because there's people who just like eat the coca leaves. They don't make cocaine out of them. They just chew on. In the Andes, it helps with altitude sickness. A lot of... And energy.

So, when you get off the plane, chew on them, it helps their altitude sickness. Yeah, there's... It's medicine. Yeah, there's medicine. It's medicine. And energy. It's like their red bull. They chew on coca leaves and they just go all day long.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know where the line is in terms of like when you're... manipulating things and you're addicted to something versus it's it's helping you versus it's yeah because it's almost a slippery slope too where because then it's like okay well then that would make people wearing glasses a perversion of god's plan right because it's like god wanted you to be blind so what are you doing right what are you doing spitting in the face of the lord with those bifocals so so you got you got into mushrooms and i think mushrooms is one of those other examples too where we talk about like there are so many that can kill you out there that it seems like

travel in air would be would be a you know would be a tough one too with everybody dying right absolutely absolutely yeah which i i would think my buddy almost died from that in high school he ate a death cap that looked exactly like a psilocybin mushroom and he got violently ill and had to go the hospital yeah so i mean this is what i what i think and i wanted to bounce this off So, I mean, I want to talk a little about what you saw on mushrooms to start, because I know we're working our way to sort of the ayahuasca DMT stage. Yes. But I do think that, and I'm much to your just to, yeah, I want you to hear you talk and then I want to talk about. Some of the things we talk about with Kara and some of our other guests about accessing the spiritual realm in a way that isn't the design of God, right?

Is maybe unsafe in that sense. Yeah. And I guess to speak on it, so I don't forget it, where I have landed, I think, with using hallucinogens in a spiritual setting, I've heard someone call it spiritual masturbation, which I thought was one of the greatest term, for real, because what it does, you will, you will think, I mean, I'll spit, whatever, I do think about God and spirituality. The majority of the time, though, is I am self-focused. I'm hyper focused. I'm going inward. You know, you have the ego death is where you just kind of cease to be. Most of it, though, is thinking about you. I remember having a mushroom trip with my buddy in high school and he became convinced that he is God and we are all God. And he's just started like screaming at me that like, you're God. Like we're God. So for me, mushrooms and it's pretty typical. Some hallucinogens will detach you from from the world and some things like mushrooms

especially create are like unifying to where you see everything as connected like the trees to the earth, you to the trees, the sky to the trees, the leaves to the branches, the water to the sky. Everything, everything has a breathing nature to it. Everything is kind of glowy and electric and your own skin. You know, it's a weird tactile sensation. Normal things become abnormal. And connection is probably, connection and pattern recognition is probably what, what you really, you're not, with mushrooms, it's the classic thing when people say like, oh, what did you see. Mushrooms, you're not really so much seeing things that aren't there as blending and distortions. When you close your eyes, you can definitely, or you sit in a dark room, you can

definitely go on some visual called, there's OEV and C-E-B, which are open-eye visuals and closed-eye visuals. Closed-eye visuals, you can go into the fractals and the patterns and geometric shapes and lights, you know, things like synesthesia where you can, you can hear colors or see sounds. It's first and foremost, I guess, a massive perception shift in everything. So it's not things, things like LSD can be more, can be more visual as far as things taking different shapes, things taking different appearances. So you're not you're not seeing entities like you were on the Benadigil-Dramamine. No, not as much.

I would see we did, you know, the few times I would do it in the forest at night, there would be maybe some, maybe some shadow people. Usually though with mushrooms, most of the time it would be accompanied by a feeling of reassurance and comfort unless you venture into quote unquote bad trip territory. I'm trying to think if I, if I, I don't know if I had many demonic feeling experiences on mushrooms. I can recount the story of a pastor friend that I know that was a self-proclaimed mushroom apologist like he was, he was trying to convert the masses to mushrooms.

he thought it was the greatest thing ever. He thought that's how you viewed God. And he was out in the desert during a mushroom trip and got accosted by a group of demons that identified themselves as demons. And that experience converted him to Christianity. And he, yeah, he's that that's on. If you want to listen to that, that's the Church and Other Drugs episode, Joe. the preacher. It's an intense story.

I love it. I love it. So one of the things, I don't know if you were done with that idea, but I... No, yeah, yeah. But I think one of the arguments we make on our show is that when people see Bigfoot, there's a similar experience that happens over and over and over again for hundreds of years. When people report digging up a giant skeleton, they do this, they have the same report for 300 years. They're not digging up wild creatures. They're digging up the same thing. Bigfoot experience, the same thing. When they do drugs, they have the same experience. And so I think that leads credence to what is happening, right? It's not like people go out in the woods and like, I saw a wild T-Rex. I saw a crazy unicorn.

I saw a five-winged dinosaur with bird feet. No, we don't hear that stuff. We hear the same stories over and over and over again. And I think that the DMT elves, these weird creatures that people seem to have contact with. The machine elves. Yeah, what are they, what are they hanging contact with them? Describe them and what do they are? And there's an interesting thing about happening currently in the ayahuasca and DMT space culturally

is that from what I have heard, people around the globe, around the disc, excuse me, currently are, they're encountering the same. this this like blue female deity. A lot of people call it mother ayahuasca. Like it has a female connotation. And apparently a lot of people that are disconnected from each other and that aren't talking about this to each other have recently been seeing this female specific deity. A buddy of mine, this is like one of the funniest DMT stories I've ever heard because I just,

I just think it's hilarious. He was like walking through. This is, he's obviously stationary, but he's walking through this wilderness and he approaches this giant blue deity. I think this one was a male and it turned around. And he, so this is also a similar pattern is that there's an overwhelming feeling that these things want to impart knowledge that they're trying to communicate something to you.

And he says that this thing was trying desperately to communicate to him. And he said that he just walked up to it and she goes, nah, and he just turned around. And like, that's how the trip ended. He was like, yeah, you wanted to tell me something, but I just like, I don't know. I just didn't want to hear it. So I just turned around. I just think that is hilarious to me. That's some self-control because you're totally stoned.

You're like, no, I don't want to hear what you have to say. Yeah. Well, and it's a, I smoked DMT, which is a different experience. And the peak of that experience is called Breaking Three. where, you know, there's kind of different plateaus for it, where you can just get sort of kind of high, you can sort of lose yourself. And breaking through is when you, when full on the veil of reality is lifted from you. And also, these experiences are like, most of them are like ineffable. Like you really can't tell what happened.

You can just sort of describe it. And so almost in like a loony-toonsie in way, it was like the field of view in front of me unzipped like a curtain and was pulled back. And I saw the machine elves on either side of the curtain, essentially like looking like they were doing a kind of construction, like tinkering, toiling, doing some kind of stuff. something and then I was catapulted like sort of like a roller coaster through the curtain that had been unzipped and it really was like kind of like a zipper and I saw what are the what do they look like so that experience I almost can't really tell you because like what my mind wants to

tell me right now is like I'm envisioning. David the gnome like with a little white hat but I don't think that is is what I saw at the time. I like if I had to describe it, it would just be legs, short spread legs like spread eagle like short ovular torso circular head. But like I said, it's really hard because it's almost so you don't really you don't have a reference point to just to compare it to because it's just so bizarre. There was there was another time another hallucination I had and this this this this one was a combination of methamphetamine and research chemicals where I remember seeing very small people on my body on my arm and my hand.

and I got fearful to the point that I took the edge of a knife and was scraping it on my arm trying to get these things off. And that was more fearful feeling. Like, like, this does, this should not be there. The ones that I saw on DMT, the feeling that came with it was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, those those those are supposed to be here. they like they work here. Like it was, it was just like Santa's workshop.

Basically. Like it was a matter of fact. Like, oh yeah, yeah, those, yeah, of course.

Like the, they work for the cosmos. I mean, yeah, like it was, it's, it's, it's bizarre.

I think it's, I find it fascinating that this is not a, like a, this is a shared experience, not a, not a, not a one off. Like,

your experience is, is in line with what a vast majority of people that, that enter, unzipped this. realm, where you want to put it, see these machine elves, right, that are doing some kind of tasks where they're writing on tablets or they're building little, little machines. There's this, this is something that people see. It's crazy to me because I think, like Nate had said in the beginning, just to reiterate,

that it leads a ton of credence to the idea that there is something going on here, especially when you look at the history of how it was used in the South American tribes, use it to speak to their gods and to use ayahuasca to speak to their gods and to know their enemies, battle plans, and to build, how to build their structures. And there's, and I think it's, I don't know if this happened to you was going to ask you. Next thing was what were you told or given like some kind of mission or knowledge? Because that is like two thirds of people on DMT say that they are given some mission or knowledge or something to do that they're supposed to do from a being, entity, elf,

something they find on that side. The only time I felt like I was given thoughts that were not my own and urgings and impulses was when I was heavy, heavy into phenylalanine's research chemicals. These are things called like a guy named Alex, not Alexander Shulgin, maybe it was Shulgin. Things like 2C.I. 2CB for MEO DMT, which is some of these are similar to frog venom.

If you've heard of like licking toads, that old thing. That is a potent, potent experience right there. And I'm doing these things constantly. And I would, I would do, I don't want to like it, it almost seemed like channeling where, I mean, I had wall scrawlings where, I was just constantly, constantly, like, writing. And but the things, the main thing I remember being pushed towards was like suicide. Like it was like, kill yourself.

Like, don't, you know, it was very, very, very dark. It was a very, very dark thing. I would get violent thoughts, violent images. I remember seeing a hallucination of a dog that had been. split in half from the rib cage and the bottom legs were gone and its entrails were hanging out and it was dragging itself across my living room floor by its front paws and just kind of staring at me like a jackal-esque looking dog that was one of the scariest things I've ever seen in my life and like I saw it it was just super it was a super super dark dark dark time

where I just felt in like the the the suicidal thoughts did not seem they weren't in my voice they didn't seem like they were coming from me necessarily yeah so I've never I don't I've never had the experience of any missions or communications or um like secrets of the universe type things. Well, shoot. It's it. Yeah. I know. Well, I mean, we wanted you to tell us with the tablet of the watchers. Yeah. Where it is? Where is it? I know. I did have and I

and I wrote this down and now and now it seems like it seems like a stoner thought but. A high idea. A idea. But it and I literally I wrote this down on my journal and it was that since Nephilim got punished. Since the watchers got punished for physically procreating, they figured out that they can promulgate their spirits through drugs. So they can still communicate through people through these hallucinogenic experiences. That's interesting. Yeah. And it makes me think about, you know,

you have a dream and your brain is sort of creating a universe. from experiences you've already had, right? And so scary things happen, but you always can wake up and describe what it is. It sounds like when people are on drugs, they're having a really hard time because it's like they're going into, they're having experiences that seem outside of their mind making it up.

Yes. They're accessing something that's not in their head already. No, I think that's a good point, Nate. I've read a bit about DMT, and we got an expert here in Jed, but like, like 75% of people that have these experiences don't think that's from their head. They think it's an actual real experience

that these are real entities. These aren't like something that they conjured or created or pulled from their subconscious that these are actual things, beings, guides, spirits. People say alien or helper, elves and angels. So there's just, and so maybe that's what I think I want to ask you, Jedd. How do you fit all this into the paradigm?

Maybe that's my best question. Because we come from the same, biblical, biblical paradigm. So if you were to sort of summarize this and kind of put it, put it and say, this is what I think is happening. This is what I think happens with drugs.

This is, and this is how it fits into a biblical worldview. I mean, how would you place these things and sort of in your kind of unpacking that? And that's probably a loaded question, but no, it's a question. It is a question that I think about often,

though. So I will tell you where I'm currently at, and I don't know if I'll stay here, but this is this is where I'm at. I think that God, Yahweh can speak to us how he chooses. I think he can use many different ways to do that, including drugs. I think it is possible. Like for instance, and this I, this this gives me an icky feeling on one hand, but I know people who have viewed mushrooms as a sacrament, they have prayed over it, they have prayed before it with the intention of hearing from Christ and hearing from God during that trip. That's what they set out. That was the intention,

and they have done that. I can't necessarily pass judgment on what that experience is. Do I think that is what God has for me? No, because it immediately becomes idolatrous. And I mean, I'm an addict and I cannot use it responsibly. I can't use it necessarily in that way. I also, if I was a like sort of like a screw tape letter scenario, if I was a demon, if I was a Nephilim spirit and I wanted to influence, humans, I would find a way to bring them to my level so that I could communicate to them. And I think that hallucinogens, that certain chemicals, that certain plants can do that. And I think that's what's happening. And I think people get influenced by these things in, I think it's the whole, the devil comes to you as an angel of light. I think it's deception, right? It's deception.

It's a false religion. I mean, hearing you speak on this, I think this is, I think I'm going to affirm this in some ways. The idea that some of these things cause you to go inward and you're a God is really Eastern religion stuff, right? Like, you are God, God's inside of you. You can say some of the Mormon stuff that we're all gods somehow. It is idolatry of self, right?

And then I just think it's, I find it interesting. I don't know where I land. I think that's why I like to hear your, your thoughts. because I think that like God gave us certain ways to access spiritual realm. And it's prayer. It's prayer and fasting. It's prayer and supplication. It's the worship of God.

These are ways that I think we've made these things so inert and so commonplace that we've forgotten the power that exists in these. And there are other ways. That's what can I look at it? And there's other ways to do that. I think some of the new age stuff is very much on to that. But I think that is all slippery slope of deception to totally can be. To a counterfeiting of, which is right on brand for the enemy, is a counterfeiting of sort of the real experience.

And I don't know enough. And I think that's why it's interesting to think that maybe some people do have these accesses that are Jesus-based. And I got to be honest, I get skeptical on that. But at the same time, I do too. I don't know. I don't know where to land because that isn't. I don't pretend to be all knowing either. That's what we have is a show.

Yeah. I don't know anything. Well, you just take some mushrooms. figure it out. I will say this. I think, uh, me personally, anecdotally, I know more people who have come to believe in God because they have seen the devil, demons, evil spirits, the darkness, than people that have seen God and come to God because of drugs that way. It's definitely more, it's more the former. Well, sleep paralysis will do the same thing to you, man.

I've woken up saying the name of Jesus so many times, you know, and I think a lot of people have. I mean, and the same thing can happen for just seeing a Sasquatch. I mean, it sounds so stupid, but it's like you see something like that, and it blows your mind, you don't know how to make sense of anything after that moment, right? and whatever thing you do, whatever

pulls back the curtain, the veil, you know, it could be a drug, it could be an experience, it could be a nightmare, it could be a near-death experience. Because fasting too, I mean, that's creating an altered consciousness. I mean, it's even Jesus in the wilderness.

I mean, exhaustion. I'm sure he, I mean, fasting was part of that. Things like that do, Yeah, I mean, the mind, body, spirit connection is super interesting. And there does seem to be something to, in all Christian included tradition, there seems to be something to changing your perception and consciousness from that of your day-to-day, fleshly, stone and concrete, wood and water reality to something more spiritual. It's like you're doing these things that are

kind of separating you from this fleshly cage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting you say that people come to a faith. I don't guess, I think that's not surprising in some ways based on the idea that we live like in a spiritually neutered world where really the best, I think the best sort of strategy of the enemy is to make you think that nothing exists, nothing is real.

There's no, there's no spiritual realm. There is no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, Jesus, no God, none of that's true, right? And so when people have these experiences, whether they be, you know, Christ-centered or not, they have these interactions with a spiritual realm, I think people will wake up. And that's interesting to me, because I think that's sort of a backfiring of the plan that maybe the darkness would have for accessing the spiritual realm in a way that isn't sort of the way that God laid it out necessarily.

Now, yeah, I just, it's, you know, we live in a spiritually bankrupt era for the church as well, right? So I don't also find a surprise and people seek these things out either because the church is no longer a place for people to get spiritually filled up. Yes. That's a great point. And so I think they're looking at other things. And I think that can also be something that goes wayward, right? It's just, it's an interesting paradigm because I think that's why the new age movement is having to come back again. And it had even had sort of, you know, had feet, you know, when it started.

in the 60s, 70s, is that people were looking for something that was greater, right? And they found a way to get into these places. You know, traditionally, if you lived, I would imagine as a, you know, an early first century Christian or even, you know, in the golden age, this was just commonplace. Like, you know, you had interactions with a very spiritual. The spiritual was as real as the physical. And there was no separation, really, for the ancients either. And, and these things in.

antiquity. And I mean, these things, this is a Graham Hancock thing, but he viewed these as spiritual technology. And back then, when you say, when you asked earlier about, is this part of God's plan or not, there was so much more respect. This wasn't a recreation. This wasn't, I'm getting high. I'm trying to expand my mind. These were like serious rituals. These were serious. These were not to be taken lightly. This wasn't something you're doing at a keg party Friday night. As it is today, it's not some teenager. These were serious, serious things. And there was a respect to it. And I also say, you know, because I get asked from Christians quite a bit, like, you know, can I, should I trip or should I do mushrooms or should I do this? And my, my unequivocal answer these days is prayerfully ask God.

I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not going to say that that is 100% between you and you and God. That's, um, yeah, but I would, I would listen to, to whatever, whatever answer you get. Yeah. And it's hard because often the, it's, it feels like the voice of God is a still, is a still quiet one. It's not the loud one that's in your head and in your, in your ear. It's, it's, it's something that you have to tune out, everything else out to hear. and I, you know, I can only count on my hands a number of times where I felt like I heard something, you know. And it's not easy. It's not easy to be a Christian. It's not easy to navigate the spiritual world.

And sometimes we do get bored. And a lot of people say, you know, like people are searching after a spiritual high. And they go to certain churches to get high. Shortcut. It's like a shortcut or a thing. Yeah, those drunk in the spirit people. And it's like the kundalini. movements and stuff and

yeah and I guess I guess that speaks to the the hunger for it like we are we're starving for it yeah something's missing like otherwise you know these things wouldn't be popular I mean we are absolutely as a society

starving for a spiritual feeling yeah and you guys you got Rogan talking about doing DMT now yes and because you have a whole audience of people who are like, I don't buy the evolution narrative. I don't buy the scientific narrative. And I've been lied to for the last 50 years by the mainstream.

I mean, even if you don't have a spiritual compass, you still know you're being lied to by 90% of whatever's coming out of the mainstream. And so you listen to guys like Rogan and he says, yeah, doing DMT and flying out of space. You're like, you're 20 years old. And you're like, yeah, I'm going to do it too. Because I'll trust Rogan over all this other crap. you know and and it's it's a really strange time to be a human but it is it is very much like all the desire and no history no ancient history so it's like the same thing that every ancient

person had and every modern day person has is still there i want to access god i want to see the spiritual realm but we have no knowledge of what actual ancient history was is i mean it's much easier for david to have faith in god because he's he's literally surrounded by tribes of giants. Right. And we don't see giants today, so it's harder for us to have that kind of faith, right? Our giants are different. And they're more like under the surface or behind the smokescreen of nefarious elites

and things like that and satanic cults that are in the shadows. But back then, it was more overt on the surface. They're going to kill you. You know, we can't go into the lands because they're there and they're going to. And they're going to. So your faith is different. And nowadays, it's just such a weird time to be a human being, and you've got these mouthpieces telling you, have a spiritual experience. Go out and do this?

Do you think it's just because we're all trying to get back to Eden? Do you think it's because we realize there's a piece of us that's missing? And it was that place where we walked with God, right? Sure. And we lost that in the fall, right? And I do think there's something inside of us. I know we're deeply spiritual beings as well as physical beings that that longs for that interaction. and that, and I do think that's an easy thing to get twisted.

And I think that's what we do see happen. It is. And right, and then you talk about, like, the idea of, you know, spiritual practice and that being a means unto a relationship or unto experiences with God. And it's, like Nate kind of said, when you have no historical, when you background or any reference point, then it's pretty easy to just be like, well, I'm going to push this button instead. Right? Because I can do this right now. And it seems to be like the way of God in, I mean, even in biblical time, I mean, the Bible's full of people just saying, where are you?

Like, what is the deal? And it seems to be, you know, sort of the paradoxical nature of like the kingdom of heaven is, is that that's not God's way. It's not flashy in your face. You know, it'd be very easy for whatever reason. And I disagree. This is where me and God disagree very much so. But it's like for whatever reason, he doesn't just come down here and stare us in the face because, you know, that's, that's his prerogative. And greater, you know, more, you know, more faith is the that hasn't seen and has faith. Let's expound upon that idea because it's like, so let's.

say the knowledge of the tree of good and evil was like a drug, right? We ate of the tree. That was my first idea when I did mushrooms. Yeah. Okay. The tree, the fruit was a hallucinogenic. Okay. So, but we were supposed to, so they wanted to give us knowledge, impart knowledge upon humanity. So let's say our elder race, angels, our older brother, whatever you call them, they had this knowledge. And human beings were in a certain way. We were, we were created to be naive, right? Right. Like we weren't supposed to know all this stuff. We weren't supposed to have this knowledge.

And then these entities gave it to us. They gave it to us in modern times. Some people, this week's episode, they say that's after Crowley comes, we have this explosion in technology. Yep, the 60s go foe phenomenon. Right after that. And then in the days. Which is coincidentally when LSD got banned. That's interesting.

That's when the, um, and Reefer madness. Yep. So what is it about this or like not like human beings were almost supposed to be like hobbits? We weren't supposed to have access to a lot of things that we want access to. Oh, I almost, I almost see the, I mean, I think more it was the act of disobedience that caught that that, that poisoned the water for us. and it broke. It separated us. Or it's,

you know, the whole, the knowledge of good and evil. I mean, it's, I mean, I've had that idea about, about the internet age and how this overwhelming

blood of knowledge is destroying us. Because now, I mean, knowledge is essentially facts and knowledge are essentially worthless because you can find, you can find anything you need to know. And it's, it's sort of,

I think it's swinging back. Jed, because I think of all the lies that exist in this mountain of information that it is, it is starting to become, again, a commodity, right? Yeah. The truth has become a commodity or a treasureable or a valuable commodity that's for me I'm looking for it because it's interesting though. That's an interesting point that like we've, it's like paralysis by analysis. We have so much information now.

I've never heard that. That's good. But yeah. That like, we can't handle it. Can't handle it. But you started off this episode talking about. Azazel taught us how to make swords and shields, right? Like, do you think, I don't think humans would have figured out how to make those things

if we were just left to our own, just human beings interacting with human beings. Would we ever have accumulated enough knowledge to make a sword and a shield? Mine, metals, put them together, or we would have stayed more like a state of like Eden in like a garden. Oh, we figured out how to kill each other. Obviously, that's like with Canon Abel. We did. We did. We are incredibly inventive at that.

It does feel in that way, Nate, that like what they did was just accelerate. Our ability to sin. They gave a toddler a handgun. It's like it was just too much too soon. That's why I love, like this movie gets so much hate. But you've seen Noah, right? Yeah. Fantastic movie.

of the book of Enos. It's just a Gnostic version of Noah. But so much of it I love like how the ancient but modern technology where like they just have all these different like Noah has these just stones that make a fire immediately by crushing it. It's like it's modern technology, but but it's just vastly different than we have. And then you had the armies of Tubalcane. They're making the steel and they're eating.

meat and they're there they're you know they've kind of been twisted god that i i love that movie okay well yeah you need to go like give it some rewatch well i think people christians just didn't like it because it was more of a gnostic version of they didn't like it because it was the book of enoch or as anokian and they did kind of give the watchers like a redemption arc but i can you know whatever man god's you know god is god and the giants were a little weird they were like stone rock

Yeah, well, but I love that representation. And when Luke, you were saying earlier basically about how we're like these spiritual beings, but in Noah, you know, these spiritual beings fell to earth and they were encrusted with the earth. And they're prisoners of hardened rock. And like, that's how I feel sometimes. It's like I'm this weird, these spiritual things stuck in this flesh suit. And it's just like almost all of life sometimes is about that. conflict between I've got one foot in the kingdom of God and then I've got this other foot in this

fallen world and you know wretched man and am I I do the things I don't want to do and I can't do the things I want to do and it's like that's what it is like that's where we are one foot in the well the human beings are spiritually different than say angels so what do you think that is then what do you think God is trying to preserve in us I mean obviously it's an experience you go through this life and maybe you see God differently. Oh yeah, that's a great point. Maybe you see God differently at the end of it that an angel couldn't experience and couldn't see God the same.

I mean, we're almost created for a different reason. Yeah. I mean, the reason seems to be partnership and kinship versus employee. Family. Yeah, like, you know, the angels and the heavenly host and the divine counsel all seem to be, I don't want to denigrate them and say employees, but sort of. And whereas humans, it's a loving, it's a relational. They're in the father's house, so to speak.

And we're, or not, we are. We're the, we're the, I mean, we're the children. We are the, we are the, I mean, there's, there is something. And I mean, yeah, I mean, the, we're all sons of God, we're just a different, we're a different breed of son of God. Right. And I'm the favorite. I hate to tell you. I know. And you have the best mustache of all. Yeah, dude. A machine elf told me I needed to grow it at exactly 34 years of age. I don't know what's going to happen, but that's why I'm doing it. Machine elf. And you said you got no impartation of knowledge. Well, he told me I couldn't tell. Until now. I love this conversation. I mean, obviously, we talk about creatures on our podcast. We try to stay in those lanes. I need to go back and watch Noah again. And you really do.

We, you know, we, we give people the keys and permission to get weird. And the Bible is definitely the older I get. I think Bigfoot and things like Bigfoot are a gift. If we didn't have weird experiences like that, I just don't think I would have read the Bible the way I do now. I wouldn't have been able to believe that the weird stuff happens. Like, you know, animals talking. And even just like, just Moses was told, speak to the rock and he hits it with us, you know, crap. it freezes every time.

But he's told to speak to the rock and he hits it with this, you know, instead. And, you know, young Nate probably thought both of those things didn't happen. And now I'm like, no, he had this power to do something. And he was, even in his rebellion, was still able to do something miraculous, you know? Yeah. And I do believe those things happened. I do believe that maybe some aspects of them were a little bit different. I do think all those weird crazy stories in the Old Testament that they they happened and

maybe doing drugs will helps you believe yeah well and that's what I was going to say like the the one person I would emphatically endorse at least one mushroom trip would be the atheist 100% I mean or or even people like Dan who like struggle with supernatural I'm serious it's Like, really, like, it'll, it'll let you know. My old band member for those listeners. Yeah. Things, things like that are, like, you just, it's humbling. It's humbling is what it is.

Just open your mind, man. For real, you need to go on a spiritual ride-along. Yeah, I'll take them on a walkabout. Yeah. There you go. And I think that, like, I just pray that he lives in Washington. I just pray a squash walks out in front of his car one night. A squatch holding an arm full of mushrooms and just grabs them and stups them in his mouth.

Just freaks them out like, Nate, dude, I saw it. Yeah. I saw the big guy. Come with me if you want to live. Yeah. No, but I mean, and we're all on this weird journey. And I don't know why, and we talk about this a thousand times on our show, why Christians just delete the weird stuff.

They just, they remove it systematically. they remove it. Yeah. And it's just more and more people are emailing us like, man, I love your show. Like I'm coming back to God. And I'm like, we didn't do anything except just say, hey, it's weird. And the weird stuff's the good stuff. That's it.

Yeah. I mean, my immediate thought was because I just brought up the Jesus in the wilderness. It's like, okay, every Christian, we all believe in Jesus. So what do you do with the fact that like Jesus had a full on? couple day conversation with Satan. Yeah. That was a metaphor. And he goes places and he sees things.

Right, right, right, right. Like, okay, but no, well, it was special because it was Jesus. Like, what? All right. Okay. Then why? Whatever. I don't know.

And we get weird on our show, but. Nate, this is what we do it for. We don't know. This is why we do it. Yeah. Yep. Yep. But all those places have significance, and the more you go back, it's like you've got to go back and dust off your reading glasses.

We got to go back to the future. I was just watching that last night. Nice. I was a good conversation, man. I love it. I mean, if we could go back, though, I think the three of us can agree. If we went back to the golden age, we would all just be like mesmerized. How wrong ancient history.

is. Oh, yeah. And probably how wrong we are, too. Like, it's probably nothing like we think. Yeah. Whatever we think it is, it's probably far different. The Empires of the God Kings were crazy. We talk about the Giants and Jed.

Tell the folks where they can listen to your wonderful podcast and get into your mind. Yeah. Yeah, it's church and other drugs. Church ampersand other drugs. You can find it on Spotify, Apple. I heart radio, Google Play, all the stuff. Yeah, it's everywhere. Everywhere you want to listen.

I'm just sad people don't see Bigfoot when they do drugs. I'm sure some people do. I'm sure they have. I'm sure they have. All right, well, you have to, you don't have to do drugs to see Bigfoot. You can just go in your backyard and see them if you know what to do. And Luke knows. If you play, if you play the Native American flute, you can call them right in.

I was just going to say it. what to do. We have learned a thing or two, Jed, since the last time you've been on our show. We really appreciate you. So when is the, when is the blurry camp? Like, when is the expedition? No, I'm talking expedition. Expedition blurry.

Yeah. We're getting there. All right. I'm in whenever you do that. 100%. Tim wants to take us to some places in Montana. We could probably do it. Maybe like an ex, like, you buy it.

ticket, covers your meals, and we go out and we get Duke and whoever else to go with us, Luke. Tom Suid. And find Squatch. Dude. All right. Deal. Duke said he can get us on Squatch 70% of the time. I'm going to hold them to it.

Yeah. That's a bold claim. That is a... He was our first guest. That was our disclaimer. Like, really? 70% of people, why would you see a squash? Have an experience.

That could be... I have an experience. Oh, okay. So he just... slips him some mushrooms is what or he just creeps it creeps out a night no they don't see squash on trumes we've already determined right right

well Jedda's it was great to see you man yeah yeah man good to see you boys yeah in our episode with you it's it's still getting downloaded and people are still loving the book of Enoch hell yeah I love it dude thanks for living baby L-I-N

yeah go go check out church and other drugs podcast And thanks for coming on our show. And we don't have anything to offer your podcast, but I'm glad you can come on ours and drop the goods. For sure, man. Yeah. Unless you want to talk Sasquatch,

and we'll do it all day long. All right, sounds good.