Blurry Creatures - EP: 11 The Ancient Giants with Dr. Judd Burton

Episode Date: October 13, 2020

Giants once roamed the Earth. In episode 11, renowned historian, anthropologist, archeologist and professor, Dr. Judd Burton, joins us to explore the mysteries of prehistoric and antediluvian Earth.�� What was the ancient world really like? How trustworthy are the oral traditions and mythologies told by cultures from centuries past? What evidence has been omitted from the modern-day human historical narrative? And what creatures of myth and lore really existed in the 'Days of Noah'?  We dive into all of this and more, as Dr. Burton takes us back to the time before the great cataclysms.  www.beyondburton.com [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the podcast, Judd Burton, all the way from the great state of Texas. Dr. Burton has a degree in anthropology and a PhD in history from Texas Tech University. Go Red Raiders. Focusing on early Christianity and Greco-Roman religions. He studied topics like the survival of mythology, sacred geography, folk religion, and contemporary alternative religious movements. Judd wrote a book called Interview with the Giant about sacred geography and the Nephilim dossier. He knows a lot about Mount Hermon we're going to talk about in this podcast.

He's an expert on the ethno historical notes of the Nephlem. And welcome to show, Judd. We're so glad to have you here. Happy to be here. It's great to hear your voice. Just to get it going, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot and Sasquatch? We ask that to every guest right out of the gate. You know, I sort of came out of the Grover Krantz School.

You know, because of my anthropology background, of course, most of the stuff that I I've done anthropologically has been, you know, culture, you know, ethno, basically ethnology and archaeology. So I didn't, most of my coursework in physical anthropology was, was very basic. But I did have some, some graduate training in physical anthropology. You know, I remember reading about Grover Krantz and how they sort of gave him the Fox Mulder treatment at Washington State, you know, going out on a limb and saying actually that yeah, they're probably out there.

His idea was that they were a remnant population of a giganticus from the Pleistocene epoch. And, you know, that's as valid a theory as any. My sense of the matter is that just from an anthropological perspective, there are enough evidence that Bigfoot does exist, you know, in whatever variation you want to talk about. We're talking, it's a primate, so it's very intelligent. If it doesn't want to be seen, it's not going to be seen, particularly in very remote regions of the North American continent.

Yeah. Yeah, all our guests so far have either had like a supernatural explanation or our last guest was Dr. Jeff Meldrum, who's got the like, you know, the tracks. And he was very much like, why does this interdimensional being look like a giant primate? You know what I mean? So he... Right. It's tough, right? It's very difficult. Well, I think that there's room for both.

I think that... That's where I am. Yeah, I think that there's very possible that they're, you know, because there are so many accounts about there being these supernatural phenomena that are associated with Bigfoot sightings and appearances. You know, I think that there's room for both. Well, so far, all of our guests have had an opinion about it, which is great because some people, no one said, what? Bigfoot?

What are you talking about? You know, so that's great. That's awesome because people are, you know, doctors and there's this whole community of people who not only they believe, but they've looked into it. And I think for the most part, people don't understand that Bigfoot's, there's a lot, it's got a lot of fans. Speaking, you're a musician, there's a lot of fans of Bigfoot, right? Sure. So I wanted to kind of start this off, like, can you help us understand what the world looked like in the days of Noah and how much different was that from today? And what kind of creatures are roaming around back then, you think?

Sure. I'm of the mind. After, you know, chasing this rabbit, going down the rabbit hole for as long as I have, I'm of the mind that the Noahic flood is probably the series of cataclysms that happened at the end of the Pleistocene epic that involved the depopulation of all of the, most of the megafauna, you know, the mammoths and mastodons and things like that. You know, you want to talk about climate change, this late Pleistocene, younger dryass event that takes place probably in the 10th going into the 9th millennium BC. It so reshapes the geography of the planet that you do have, in many ways, a different world afterwards. I mean, not only do you have extended periods of flash flooding, but you've got all this weird solar activity, all these, you know, We know that there are these mass coronal ejections that broke through our Van Allen belts because there are places on the surface of the earth in that strat, that archaeological stratum where the rock is vitrified. I mean, it's completely melted. Yeah, Brian Forrester talked a little bit about that. Sides of the megaliths look like they were burned, right?

Yeah, and there were also very similar kind of northern lights, ionic disturbances in the atmosphere that show up in the rock art. this similar latitude around the world. So, you know, this was an event that clearly happened because it was so significant that it burned itself into the collective cultural memory of the planet. When you consider the minuscule variations that exist in flood epics around the world, something happened. It forever, I mean, it put us on a 90 degree angle change in terms of our our culture. But in in terms of the world that existed just before this event, yeah, we're looking at a different world, you know, we can tell that, we can discern that just from the physical evidence that we can garner from the archaeological record, you know. I mentioned the megafauna a moment ago,

which included mammoth and Macedon, but you also had short-faced bear and saber-toothed cats and dire wolves and, you know, giant sloth and the giganticaphythus that I mentioned at the top of the hour. It was a world of giants. And a lot of that was possible because of full genetic expression allowed by their ecology and their environment. You know, the oxygen-notrogen ratio in our atmosphere is drastically different than it was in the distant past. But even back in the Pleistocene epic, you're looking at greater oxygenation in the atmosphere. And so this allowed for these larger creatures. You know, this has been replicated in laboratory experiments with fish, having their water super oxygenated.

They can grow to two and three times as big as the recorded average. Some people say that the earth used to be like a greenhouse. house. Is that kind of what you're describing? Yeah. And again, that's kind of something that, you know, the Genesis account talks about, you know, how it was, it was very steamy and it came up from, the water came up from the ground. And some parts of the plasticine epic, it would have been kind of steamy and temperate rainforests kind of conditions. Do you think all these creatures are fighting against each other at this point? Are they living in harmony? What are you thinking?

Well, I, I, you mean in terms of like the possible. like chimerical creatures that existed you know like like mythological the the stories that are left to us in mythology well I mean because I think that those existed too you know I you get a lot of insight from not just the biblical narrative but especially all the apocryphal literature that accompanies it like the second simple period stuff like Enoch and Jashir and Jubilee you know they talk about all kinds of basically genetic experiments that that tinkered with the human genome and came up with all of these, you know, hybrid creatures

that were undoubtedly recorded in our later mythology. My sense of the matter is that particularly the closer you get towards this event, this younger dryness, cataclysm, Noahic flood, whatever appellation you want to put on it, the worst things got culturally and socially. There's a lot of war taking place. if we're to believe the commentary that's given by the apocryphal literature on Genesis, then this is also a world of these extra-dimensional entities, these watcher angels, and their offspring, the Nephilim, these gigantic creatures,

not to mention all of the other chimerical creatures that they had created. It's very clear, especially from Enoch, these were bloodthirsty, particularly the Nephilim. They usurped whatever social, order existed at the time. They consumed all of the resources of humanity. Yeah, they were like parasites. I've heard you described. Yeah, exactly. So they just extracted all the life out of humanity and there's this, there's this war going on. To, you know, sort of drive at home toward the end, even their, their angelic forebears were afraid of them. You know, what does it

take to scare an angel? Right. Wait, you're saying the watchers were afraid of these, these giants? Yeah. So, but they're supposed to be bad, right? The watchers? Yeah. And they're supposed, you know, they're at the helm of all of this, you know, this combination of practical and occult knowledge that they're bestowing upon humanity at this time. So it's like being a kid and you like, you start some chaos and then the chaos grows into a giant forest fire and all your friends are sitting there like, oh my, what did we do? Right.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Yeah. It's like throwing water on Greek fire. The more water you throw on it, the more the fire spreads. How does humanity survive in this world?

You know, I've tried to get into the mind of what it must have been like. Just wrapping your head around this, the conventional explanation of the pre-flood world, the antediluvian world, is amazing enough. When you plug all of this stuff into it, you know, this is real, you know, Lord. of the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, you know, in real time, real space kind of thing. It must have been a struggle for people to even survive. And I'm not just talking about putting food on the table because these were largely hunter gatherers and, you know, farming was, and we can talk about that. Agriculture was just sort of coming into its own at the time.

But, you know, outside of just trying to put food on the table, if these apocryphal accounts are correct, then people were oppressed on a daily basis. I mean, it's very clear that they were killed either and probably both. They were probably killed for ritual and food purposes. The Giants were eating people. They were. Yeah. And do you think some of this has to do with where we get the Greek mythology?

It all sort of lines up with the little cheat gods and the Titans battling and that doing with the watchers and the giants. Are they all talking about the same thing? Yeah, they are. I mean, these are different accounts. of the same event. And I think the Near East is key for understanding this, sort of not only just the Near East,

but kind of central Eurasia as well. Because some of the Near Eastern peoples came from that area, like the Samarians were originally from that area. But I think it's key because this is the area where so much is happening in the transition from prehistory into the historical era. so that you have mechanisms in addition to oral tradition, you have mechanisms like ideograms and then actual written language

for recording the legacy of all this thing while it's still relatively fresh. My buddy, Dr. Mike Heiser, does some really great work on the Divine Counsel concept in the ancient Near East. And he and I and other biblical scholars are of the mind that that begins with Mount Hermon material the Mount Hermon story, this idea of, you know, one generation of God's rebelling against the other. That's very reflective and analogous to what you see happening with the fallen angels in the Genesis account and all the apocryphal stuff is because there's a coup against heaven. They're rebelling against God and the heavenly host. That theme permeates the Mediterranean world

and the ancient Near East world and the sort of proto-Indo-European Eurasian worlds. And we're talking about this, the Watchers, the Nephilim, and the Giants. Are they all three different things? They are. And something I see in some literature is a conflation of the Watchers and the Nephilim. And that doesn't make any sense in context. Like if you break the language apart, you break the phraseology apart, that doesn't even make any sense to conflate them.

So if the people who were culturally closest to this are putting this into their idioms, but idioms that we can discern, then it's probably best to go off of what, you know, the text and the culture and the context is telling us. And so I think it's a mistake to equate, which I see not infrequently. I think it's a mistake to equate the watchers with the notes.

We're talking about two separate, separate entities. Judd, you mentioned Mount Herman. For people that aren't familiar, can you talk about what happened there and why it's so significant to this? Hey, I worked there. We were joking about this. Oh, yeah? I worked at a camp called Mount Herman in college and had no idea.

It was in the Santa Cruz in the Santa Cruz mountains and now here I am like 20 years later going, oh, this place is supposed to be a creepy place, right? Right. Mount Herman is so significant to this story. It's central really. It's ground zero for what I call the second phase of the Luciferan rebellion. You have the original satanic coup. And then you have later angelic beings that throw in their light with him. And we get a glimpse of this in Genesis chapter six, you know, where it talks about the sons of God coming down and taking wives amongst the daughters of men. That sons of God is repeated four or five. times in the Old Testament, Benach Elohim, and that's clearly an angel. We're talking about the reference in Daniel to probably one of the other big places. The apocryphal material not only tells us the location where this happened, but it tells us the time of the, it actually names the biblical patriarch, Jared, who we also find in the Old Testament genealogies. These things came down in the days of Jared and it also names, for all intensive purposes, the officers of this rebellious cabal of angels.

And the summit of Mount Hermann is where they land and decide to do this. So how long are human beings here before these things come down on Mount Herman? Like, is there like a peaceful era where humans are kind of, there is no corruption, all these beasts aren't running around? It's kind of... Well, you know, again, there's plenty of... of evidence in prehistory to suggest that, you know, humans in, you know, hominids or whatever, you know, whatever shape they came in fought against each other. So I'm not painting it as this, you know, a utopia. I don't want to utopian eyes. Well, because the Garden of Eden sounds

utopian. Well, the Garden of Eden is a separate sort of thing. You know, Eden is described as a country, really, which is probably in eastern Turkey. You know, we have the location of the headwaters of two of the rivers. that are mentioned for sure. The garden is set in the east where the headwaters of these four rivers branch off. And it's this strange place where the earthly realm and the celestial realm touch. So if we want to put it into quantum terms, you've got two dimensions that are touching because, again, Genesis chapter two and three talk about, you know, Adam and Eve basically

and it doesn't say that they're the first people. it just says that for the line that God is creating, he puts them in this garden. So there were other people in the world at the time. That's something that I get in a quibble about all the time. I'm sure. Is that, well, because Adam and Eve clearly weren't the first people. And the account doesn't say that. What's important about Eden is that, yeah, it is, it is utopian because they're, they're,

they're given everything they need. They're basically horticulturalists. they can eat from every tree and fruit except for tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And so Eden, you know, just to summarize, Eden is a separate operation from what's going on and the rest of the world. So if you want to look at that in terms of utopia, but just the archaeological record tells us that people have been fighting for, you know, millions of years. So Luke and I grew up in the church. We kind of went through that whole phase and you get to a certain age when you start to realize some of the things fall apart. I think, I don't want to speak too much for

you, Luke. We both have a lot of friends in the progressive Christian space, and they tend to write off, I don't know, a good portion of the Bible. And we're a creatures podcast. We're trying to make sense of the creatures. And I think ultimately you can't talk about Bigfoot and these creatures without going back to this antediluvian time. And I've heard you say on several podcasts that you think all cryptids stem from the Nephilim. Is that true? Or was I reading too much?

No, I wouldn't say that all. All of them are descended from the nephalum. I would say that certainly a significant portion of them probably are, but I'm perfectly comfortable with the natural explanation for many of them. But the reason I use the term quadded is because some of them, particularly the ones that have demonic roots, you're immediately talking about multiple dimensions. I'm trying to develop a kind of taxonomic framework to approach

what on the surface would seem, you know, anomalous. And so that's something else that's also been on my mind the last couple of years is while I've been trying to articulate a scientific field of giantology, part of that is developing a taxonomy, a taxonomic methodology to apply to the cataloging of these kinds of creatures. Yeah, because, I mean, we talk about Bigfoot a lot, and I spent, I don't know, most of my time researching that topic. that kind of opened my mind to all this stuff. And then we call it the gateway drug on our show. And then you quickly realize you don't know anything. You're like, I don't know anything. And a lot of people, they have this knee-jerk reaction when you start talking about the Bible, Christianity.

And I think it's impossible to take a real good look at cryptids and not include the Bible. And so far, every guest on our show has a faith. and I think it goes back to this stuff. And so I preface that because a lot of listeners are like, wait, I thought this was a Bigfoot show. Why are you guys talking about the Bible and Eden and all this stuff? So, I mean, that's why I was kind of talking about that. Just to preface, like, you have to talk about it.

You can't take it away. At least I don't think you're going to have a good understanding if you don't, right? Sure. You know, as I've said before, there's no reason why these two approaches can't contribute to the addition of knowledge about the world of cryptids. none of us have the complete story here we're all we've all got different talents and different experiences that we're bringing to the table first of all to be uncivil about it doesn't do anybody any good it's okay to disagree to disagree at the end of the day what we should be doing

is getting each other to think about these things and ask increasingly more difficult diagnostic questions really not just cryptids any kind of you know any kind of phenomenon or anomaly. You know, I think in many ways, I think people like, in the early days, people like Charles Fort had the right idea, you know, in terms of approaching these things, making some sort of sense to his readership and the rest of the world. By that same virtue, that's what I'm trying to do. I joke with people that, you know, I grew up with the Bible in one hand and National Geographic and the other. I was always, and still am, an ardent student of the Bible, but there's room for a scientific approach as well.

Like I say, I read the Bible and I'm reading Genesis and I'm not only thinking about the religious and spiritual implications and the weird crazy Lord of the Ring stuff that's in Genesis. But a lot of people can't read that part. They can't include that stuff in their read. I mean, I have a lot of friends who deny it exists. Like Jeff Meldrum said that his colleagues form an opinion about Bigfoot without consulting the data. And I think a lot of people do that with the... They're just like, it's not in there.

It's not in the Bible. What are you talking about? And you're like, no, it's all over. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Get a simple bill. That's where Mitt Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless. Just because that's how.

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equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price, plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. And we also, at the end of the day, we have to remember that not just historical content, but it's historicity. In other words, the Bible has a a strong archaeological and historical textual tradition that backs up this historicity. But we also have to remember that despite its congruency with historical narrative, it's a book of theology first, which means that it's not going to break off into treatises about detailed movements of the planets or genetic science or something like that. But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for all of that

in a biblical worldview. It doesn't give you like five chapters on the Nephilim, for example. Yeah. It just says Nephilim and keeps going. Right, exactly. We have no idea what that means. Well, we have to link that with other points of familiarity in the Old Testament narrative because there were, you know, Nephilim in the post-flood worlds,

particularly as you get to the historical era and the Hebrew culture in particular, became a kind of general word, that part of the ancient near east. for giant. It's related to the Aramaic word, in fact, that means giants. But, you know, there were later tribes of giants that we actually have very good evidence for their existence as well. The Refayim, the Anakim, the Zamzim, there were giants that hired themselves out as mercenaries amongst the Philistines like Goliath and his brothers. They still had that oppressive, almost innate character to conquer and oppress. And so we know that there were a number of giant kings in the Old Testament like

Og and his brother, Sion. Do you think there could still be some remnant today of those things? People say they see them. I think there probably are because clearly these later tribes were intermarrying. The prevailing theory about Neanderthals, who were Homo sapiens, is that they were basically bred out because they were intermarrying, interbreeding with Cro-Magnon. But there are people that still have features that are reminiscent of Neanderthals. There are people that probably still carry around tendency towards polydactylate or something like that.

Because a lot of these giants are described as having six fingers and six toes. I was going to say, I kind of wanted to go back to the quantids and just get some examples. You talk about the taxonomy and creating just a way to organize and classify these creatures. Can you give us some examples of quantites? because we kind of, almost like we talk about the Bible brushing over the Nephlin, it's like, I just want, I would love to hear about the way that you divide and subdivide these creatures and some examples of these, as you see it. Well, that's a process that's certainly still embryonic.

It's still in its infancy. But the reason I chose quantum is because we're in the quantum age now. I mean, we're multidimensionality is much less theoretical than it used to be. Our last guest wrote a book called the Quantum Bigfoot. So you're right on, you're right on pace. The idea and the technology would seem like magic. I mean, when you get into something like quantum computing that literally this thing dumps its question into another dimension to derive information that it can use in this one. It's hard to wrap your mind around something like that, but that's where we are.

But the Bible catalogs multiple dimensions, you know, in a number. You know, it talks about the first heaven and the second heaven. and, you know, it's clearly arranged and also the other cultures in the ancient Near East and, indeed, the world, arrange their concepts of different places in terms of dimensions. Some examples of quotids would be that, you know, that they're linked to other dimensions initially. I put, for instance, in this book that I'm finishing the Van Helsing Way, this can include creatures like vampires, werewolves, all kinds of wear creatures, certain kinds of witchcraft practices could be concerned. They could be considered quanted in terms of actually, in terms of becoming a quanted, not necessarily, you know, innately being a quanted.

The reason of, again, looking at these beings in terms of their extradimensionality is because, again, this apocryphal literature throws light on the nature of these creatures. There's not, it's not just the apocryphal literature either. It's the continuity into the New Testament. In Enoch, for instance, the judgment that's, that's handed down to the Nephilim is that their bodies will be destroyed in the flood, but their spirits will continue on. They'll continue to exist. The word that is usually translated as demon in the New Testament, the phraseology that's often used is unclean spirit. And so there's this clear linkage between disembodied spirits of the Nephilim and these unclean spirits. And I'm actually not the first person to link these monsters for all intents and purposes to the pre-flood world.

There was a guy, a clergyman named Montague Summers, who wrote several books on the occult, vampirism, witchcraft, even werewolves. And his one book, The Vampire is Kithin Ken. he links the demonic roots of the vampire back to this pre-flood event and the destruction of the nephalum. So it's very clear that the spirits of the nephalum are the demons of the biblical world. And they, you know, they lose none of their appetites for drinking blood, for oppressing people, for using this knowledge that the watchers brought within the fallen angels to their own, you know, their own ends. So I tend to, in terms of the whole quadid thesis, I tend to deal more with the darker, darker creatures. The darker stuff. So they can take on a physical shape, but they have to possess an animal or possess a person or a body.

Is it a body they need? They're always seeking a body. I mean, that's the thing. They've been stripped of their flesh. and so now they're you know now they're seeking embodiment of some kind you've seen this first hand

I know you've been part of some exorcisms or demon extractions you can tell maybe a story about about some of that for context well probably the most violent deliverance that I was ever involved in had to do with a young man from my hometown there weren't any

sort of vampiric or werewolf manifestations or anything like that not yet, but my, my two, my brother was with me and my best friend was with me. We were all athletes. Okay, I was in martial arts at the time. My brother was a weightlifter and in basketball. Our best friend was an officer in the guard.

He was also a ranger. So you all are studs. We were in the prime of our masculinity. This guy that we were helping out, you know, he was tall. He was about six feet tall. But between the three of us, but we could not physically move this kid for about three hours. Is he standing or sitting?

Yeah, standing. No way. He was just frozen. He was standing. He was just in place. Are you running into him or are you like a minebacker? We were trying everything. I mean, short of, you know, assaulting the kid.

You know, it only struck me in later years that the reason that you hear about these kinds of things and deliverances about people with immense strength and knowledge of languages that they've not been exposed to or trained in is that these entities have been around for millennia, if not longer. They retain all of that knowledge, and if they can get into matter, usually a human host, then they can utilize that to their ends.

Some of it is mysterious, but other parts of it like that, there's a good case for being able to quantify at least that part of it. And this is where the rubber meets the road when you can talk about theology all day long, but if you show up to an exorcism, you're changed forever, right?

You realize this stuff, is real. Exactly. You don't, you don't go through that and then unsee it, you know, and while I value, you know, everything that I've learned academically and I value, you know, I mean, that's what I'm called to do is be a scholar. There was this whole other education that I was getting outside of that from the books that I was reading and, you know, as you guys know, it's a lot of self-teaching and auto-didaction because you're not going to get this in mainstream curriculum. Or mainstream Christianity, Yeah, exactly. And the, yeah, that's not stuff you're going to get from the pulpit in the Sunday school room, for sure. Much to the disservice of the church, I think. Yeah, I've heard you say understanding the Nephilim is like the Rosetta Stone to biblical interpretation, right?

It is. And, you know, Steve Quill was the first guy that I ever heard say that. The first time I heard him say that, I was like, yeah, maybe. But particularly when I started working on the Mount Herman Bonia stuff, and it became, you know, this antiquarian obsession for me, and I eventually wrote my dissertation on the site, I was like, yeah, you know, you can't, you can hardly throw a stone in the arc of the biblical narrative without it, if not being explicitly there, then it is certainly implicitly there. For example, you know, when Jesus goes to Cessori of Philippi Banias at the foot of Mount Herman, this would seem to be just kind of a place to rest because his cousin John the Baptist has just been killed. You know, on the surface, it looks like he's just getting his people out of, you know, his disciples out of Herod Antipus's jurisdiction. But this region was so associated with that

Mount Hermon event, those fallen angels, the first generation, the Nephilim. You've got Ogs Old Kingdom, Bashan, directly to the east. It was known as Batania at the time. It had been Latinized, Romanized. You've got the land of the apostate tribe of Dan to the west. You've got the Gilgal Raphaim, the stone wheel of the giants and the Golan just to the south. The gates of hell, right? The gates of hell, right? Well, yeah, there's a reason that he used that phraseology because that region was known as the Gates of Hill and the Phoenician Eucharitic literature.

And of course, his Jewish audience would have been familiar with all of, you know, as he's saying all this stuff, you know, upon this rock, I'll build my church and the gates of hill will not prevail against it. It's just this backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event, this rebellion against God, and the creation of the first generation of not only giants, but all of these, you know, chimerical creatures like satyrs and centaurs and lion men. Consequently, things that show up in Jewish ideation during the Old Testament period. Some of them are even mentioned by name, like the Shedernem, are mentioned in Deuteronomy and, Leviticus and Jeroboam I first and First Chronicles had a, led a cult. You know, one of the

kings of Israel's led a cult devoted to these satyr. And they're mentioned in Isaiah too. And where do they go? We just kill them all off? Do we know they're evil and that's why we go after them? Well, that's a great question. I moved back to my hometown and I only referenced that because sometimes you don't have to look any farther than your own backyard for the exotic. And one of the stories associated with my hometown is the goat man it's the classical you know Greek Seder and he was you know there are all kinds of stories about him roaming the countryside south of town the goats is this is associated with devil right the cold yeah well yeah certainly it goes all it goes back to Mount Herman again you know Azazel is probably the archetype for that

he was one of these angels that led in this rebellion because there is a shrine to the pan that the city develops around at the foot of Mount Hermann seems more than accidental to me that there isn't some some kind of linkage and again even if you break down the name linguistically there is that element of the name odds or woods which means goat as a zazel literally means the goat of God and there were all of these other goat deities in the region Amur that the Amurites were named from was a shepherd deity Zaka was a goat deity in the region and I of course I've made reference to the the Hebrew shedding, which were,

which were essentially staters. But in terms of what happened to these things, did they just completely go away, I think there's a good chance that they're coming back. Because when I begin to think about how something like a goat man would be possible, and there's stories of these things all over the country, but they're a big cluster of them in Texas. You know, now genetic sciences allow us to make these sort of hypermen. and it's beyond debate that this sort of thing is going on because there have been all these

accounts that have been leaked out of these defense labs and, you know, trying to weaponize this genetic stuff. Well, the days of Noah, right? Could it be us doing the days of Noah or portals they're coming back? Yeah, I mean, again, it's probably a combination of the two. Our first guest talked that he said that people say that there are these portals and giants are behind them. And it was like our first episode.

And it was just so wild out there. Well, you know, I think that there are... Portals? I think that there are portals. You know, I think that that's how details about the judgment that was handed down against the watchers. You know, most of them are placed in these subterranean prisons, basically tartarus. But that's not to say that the people can't gain access to them. You know, you think they can go down there?

There's all these talks of these. underground military bases where they fight things down underground. I'm thinking more in terms of ritual. Like Alster Crowley, right? Like Crowley did that stuff. Yeah, like the Babylon workings that Jack Parsons and El Ron Hubbard did. I mean, the whole reason for that was to open a portal to let the Queen of Heaven or the whore of Babylon, whatever appellation you want to put on her, who was a Mesopotamian deity. You know, there's a good case to be made for, you know, Inana.

In fact, she was referred to in her multiple variations, you know, Ishtar, so forth, as the queen of heaven. There have been people who have argued that particle accelerators and super colliders that we have now, like the one in Tennessee and the CERN operation, are geared towards just that. They're demonic intent. Yeah, whereas as Stephen Hawking might call that, you know, don't do this or you're going to create an artificial singularity. a black hole. That's probably just another word for... It's semantics, right? It's an extra-dimensional portal is what you're talking about. And it's the old Jurassic Park thing, you know. People are so preoccupied with whether they should, whether they can do something.

They get so mad scientists obsessed that they don't ask the ethical questions, the moral questions about this stuff. Well, they should, right? Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that's causing more awareness of these creatures, more and more people? are talking about giants more and more people are talking about do you think i think all of these all of these things that we're talking about combined have contributed to a greater awareness to that i i want to go back real quick because i know we haven't we haven't brought this up on the show at all and we just kind of brushed over this as well we talked about vampirism for a second and i think a lot of people's

experience with all this has to be like true blood or oh yeah whatever that whatever that tween movie is where he turns out of where i don't know what's called twilight um But, I mean, that hasn't come up yet in our show, Nate. And I would love just you to, if that's something you think actually has either a real root or is a real thing, can you talk about that at all? I do. I do believe, you know, again, we have to understand that the vampire at its essence is a demonic creature. It's a demonic entity. And we're so conditioned by culture, you know, we have to strip the literary and the cinematic vampire.

away from that and that's very difficult to do but you know hey i like i like a good vampire novel as much as the next person but yeah you know you have to remember that that they're not running around dressed in capes you know talking like eastern european nobleman or they're not you know glitterly you know teenagers like in twilight uh and that's another thing that's dangerous too is is when you know there's a point where you can take the vampire make them an anti-hero like like Anne Ross did. Even Anne Ross's vampires, though, had this kind of self-loathing, you know, about they still knew that there was something really messed up about them. But now the vampire is a sympathetic creature or an all-out hero. I'm from the Van Helsing, you know, Blade the Vampire Hunter's

school, you know. They need, there's a reason that they're villainous is because they've been villainous in our history for millennia. I have a question about that. I've been thinking about this for like a lot of episodes. when I have some chickens, right? And they're two days, three days old. They're scratching in the dirt. How do they know how to do that? How do they know, is it because for hundreds, thousands of years they've been doing this?

And do we have some fear in our DNA written? We know these creatures are evil. Like we know giants probably ate us at one point. We can't quite say they existed because they don't run around like they used to. But we know, are we fascinated by them? Do we, you know, like you see a. snake you jump five miles in the air how do you know to how do you know to have that fear of that snake is it is it because we've been afraid of those things for centuries and is the same thing

go for vampires and giants do we are do we know where can we almost tap in and is it written on our DNA to be afraid of this yeah i think so i i i i think that's a good point i you know and when people are you know approach me with incredulity about the existence of vampires i'm like well you know you again you've got a strip away the literary and cinematic stuff, you have to remember that there's great variation culturally, you know, if you're just talking about the ethnology of vampire, there's great variation culturally, but there's this core, you know, idea of the vampire. And to just write it off as, you know, exploded superstition altogether that people aren't having these real experiences.

Again, just from a quantitative perspective, if you look at the amount of the material that's been gathered over time and space over many cultures, thousands of years, clearly people were having, you know, even if some of the people were just retelling the story, clearly some of these people were having these very violent, invasive, traumatic experiences. And with the same severity as other widespread shared events like the flood, these ideas burn themselves into our cultural memory so that we still... Exactly. We still retain that healthy fear.

Yeah, our fear was burned into our psyche of these giants and these demons and these creatures, werewolves, and because our ancestors saw this stuff, and we know they saw that stuff, or we can feel that they saw that stuff, you know? And we still, we obsess about it today. The case with giants and other creatures, too, but I'm thinking about giants, it hasn't been that long ago that they were around. You know, I mean, it's one thing to talk about the, the indigenous tribes of the Americas talking about, you know, that's as recent as four, five, six hundred years ago. But, you know, there are cases where we have pictorial evidence.

I did a presentation number of years ago about an Egyptian plate that was chiseled out basically. It was a base relief made during the Battle of Kadesh, which 32, 32. 3,300 years ago. One of the largest battles in the ancient world, five, six thousand chariots between the Hittites and the Egyptians, well attested. And you hear in the middle of it, you've got these Egyptian soldiers,

and they have these two captives that they called the Shasu. They're from a tribe called the Shasu or the Anak, which is interesting because that's similar to the Anakim. And they're on their knees, but they are clearly taller than their captors. And so you run into it. to stuff like this that's odd to begin with because the Egyptians usually depicted themselves as taller than their enemies. So this sort of blows the whole hierarchy of scale thesis out the window.

You've got this snapshot, basically, late second millennium snapshot of these two giants. Three thousand years, that's nothing, that's a quarter in a mile high stack of quarters in terms of human history. So these things made an imprint, yes, collection. but some of those imprints were still being seared into our culture and our memory very recently. You know, I heard you say this about mythology. You said it's a very abused word because people think of it as fake or fiction or fairy tale. But I like the way you describe it. You described mythology as like a preservation. It's a way to preserve stories, the truth of something that happened. and we tell these stories in a way so they aren't forgotten. But we kind of, you know, modern day humans, we just like, oh, that's mythology.

None of that ever happened. It's just, and I'm like, why would we keep telling these stories if it wasn't rooted in some of the truth? Right. In Western languages in particular, we've done that word myth, a great disservice. You know, the way we use it now is almost 180 degrees out of phase from its etymology. You know, muthos, the Greek word, means a story. usually with some sort of historical or philosophical or religious push to it. But yeah, I mean, mythology is this, it's a functional part of a cultural toolkit. You know, whereas, you know, paleographers and epigraphers and historians and people that

deal with ancient languages for years sort of wrote it off as, you know, yeah, it's important culturally, but it's part of their literature, you know. It's basically novels and comic books, basically. See, this is where anthropologists got the gun, you know, they got it. out the jump on the rest of us because they were actually going out and talking to people living in these kind of in these these preliterate stone age societies in in the modern era people that were still thinking mythologically they they lived in an oral culture all of their bodies of knowledge whether it was philosophy or history or economics or whatever mathematics

it was all tied together it was not intellectually compartmentalized like we do and And so that sharp line that we draw between today, that we draw between mythology and history, doesn't exist in that worldview. And it didn't exist in early antiquity because even as writing was kind of coming into its own, those people were still thinking mythologically. They weren't drawing that line between mythology and history that we draw. I feel like we live in the Matrix now. We live in this very weird box.

where we've forgotten our own history, and we debate if it even exists. Nothing is spiritual. And I think ancient people, you had to pick aside because you literally had giants running through and picking you up and eating you. So you had to decide right away. Like, it's not, well, do the giants exist? I'm like, here comes one. Yeah.

It's good. You know what I mean? Run. And that shapes the way you see everything. And I think now we live in this age of agnosticism where nothing, I don't believe in anything. I think you could only be an agnostic, what, for the last couple hundred years, right? Because before then, the Native Americans are still battling these giants and they know,

like there's the Shawnee where supposedly have killed the last of them, right? And that was the end of them? So, was that three or four hundred years ago? Yeah, in terms of population in the Americas, you know, the Paiute and the ancient Puebloans fought them as well. And of all these creatures, what are your, what's the most fascinating, one to you. Well, for me, it always goes back, in terms of the creatures, it always goes back to the giants, because so much of what I'm dealing with right now with looking at these dark creatures, their roots are demonic. They go back to the pre-flood world. And so, you know,

whether I'm looking at ritualized cannibalism or vampires or werewolves or sort of revenants or like the Nosferatu or ghouls, you know, in the Arabian. world because their roots are antediluvian and specifically in my estimation tied to the Nephilim not only by virtue of the trail that I'm following but just my interest that's where my main interest lies in terms of these creatures why are Christians the most skeptical of this I had a friend text me and said dude including the giants in the story is a pagan way to read the Bible and I'm like what what I mean I've had some visceral reactions when I try to get my friends to consider the giants.

I don't know how you can make sense of the Old Testament narrative, particularly, you know, if you look at the conquest era, when the Israelites go back and conquer Canaan, these giant tribes are all throughout Canaan, and then you have God saying, well, go destroy the city down to every last man, woman, and child. If you dig in a little bit deeper, you find, you find out these places were completely infiltrated by these tribes and giants like the anachim and the rifeeem and the zamsumim and the imam there was you know otherwise god just looks like this this genocidal maniac right yeah genocidal maniac exactly well people get to a certain age and they walk away from their faith because of that they go i can't believe in this because god's totally he's just a warlord

and i'm like no you don't have the characters like come on wake up you know um but they refuse they They'll wrestle for years on the idea that how could God command Joshua to do these things, and they'll never consider what he's up against. It's like, I feel like you could give him a giant skeleton, set it down at their feet, and they'd still go, I don't know, it's fake. Well, you know, when people ask me about evidence, my first sort of snarky response is, where do you want me to start? Evidence that's hiding in plain sight.

And usually when evidence comes into the discussion, people immediately go to the physical evidence, you know, the articulated skeleton that we're all looking for, you know, nicely nestled into the archaeological record or even, you know, a living specimen, which is kind of frightening to even contemplate. Our first guest talked about people still seeing some of those, but. Yeah, yeah. And I've, through my own context, you know, I hear about the occasional living specimen. and they're they they clearly in terms of behavior if these are legitimate counts they're in terms of behavior they're they're clearly in line with the descriptions that we have of them in particularly the apocryphal literature but also in a general way in the old testament but the evidence is that there are three kinds of evidence that should be articulated and examined and those are mythological textual or historical and then finally physical evidence and the reason i start with

the mythological or oral traditions is that that's the source of evidence that we have that's in most abundance. The fact of the matter remains is that there are plenty of cultural examples of societies that have mechanisms built into their culture for maintaining the accuracy. For instance, the druids, I had to study for anywhere from 10 to 20 years before they advanced beyond the sort of bardic phase of their education, memorizing just thousands upon thousands. of these these little three-line axioms that contain the corpus of their knowledge. The Anasazi in the desert southwest had a system of transmitting information from generation to generation, you know, stuff that's very complex. They could predict, you know, a celestial

event that wouldn't happen for five generations down. And by the time that fifth generation got there, they knew exactly what they were looking for and where and when in the sky. sky, they were going to be seeing this. Even the ancient Hebrews, you know, the Hebrews didn't have a written language until, you know, the 11th, 10th century BC. Before that, you know, for for nearly a thousand years, they were, they were an oral culture. And of course, they had mechanisms for maintaining the accuracy of this information too. And of course, these mechanisms in Hebrew culture were transmitted even to the time after, you know, the Hebrews had a written language. You know, they had a system of multiple scribes, they're working on basically the same passage, the same

portion of scripture that they're copying or transmitting or whatever. And so there's a system of redundancy that's built into their writing culture. It existed long before they were even, you know, illiterate culture. And so there you've got it, you have examples of how accurate information can be transmitted generation to generation in an oral society. On that token, Why then would we be so quick to dismiss stories of giants just from a world mythology perspective, much less the perspective of the ancient Near East, or let's say the prehistoric near East? And once those stories began to be written down, then we start to get into not just the venue, but we begin to talk about the second kind of evidence, and that's the text evidence.

The fact that world mythology is replete with stories of these creatures, not just, that but the preter natural qualities of these creatures should at least be cause for looking into the matter further because just like other elements in mythology like the flood epic that are so prevalent in world mythology with very little variation these sorts of reoccurrences begin to approach the level of what Carl Jung called the archetype I have a different perspective on archetypes all together, I agree that there are these universal perennial mythological themes, but there's a reason that they're there is because many of them occur in real space and time. And I believe that that's the case with the giants. And so, you know, we have this huge body of evidence just staring us in

the face from mythology that generally just gets brushed to the side as, well, if it's oral or or even if it's written, it's interesting and it's novel, but it's still just literature. It's trying to give a supernatural explanation to the natural world. Is that because we're so used to, as a culture, breeding fiction, watching movies, that we equate anything that sounds strange to be just a story? Yes, and I think the precedent for that goes back even further than the industrial age. In some respects, it goes back to the Enlightenment movement of the 18th century, which basically didn't necessarily start the intellectual compartmentalization that we have,

but certainly set it on its path. You know, the key component, whether you're talking about the natural world or politics or history or sciences or whatever at that time, the key element behind it, the driving force was empiricism. That's why it was called the age of reasons, because I believe that you could, you could reason these things out with, you know, the best empirical evidence that you had. The Enlightenment era really started moving us down that line. Well, fast forward to the 20th and 21st centuries, we're bombarded in pop culture with all of these themes from world mythology and world folklore. And so, and even in fantasy, the fantasy realm, you know, whether it's like Lord of the Rings or, you know, Narnia, or, you know, Conan the Barbarian or whatever, those things are still drawing off, their mythology in their

structure, they're still drawing off of patterns in mythology, whether it's the councils of gods or the hero's journey or, you know, whatever, they're still drawing. And consequently, that's why those movies are so popular is because we're used to telling stories like that as a species that go, you know, millennia back. Well, that's why I asked you before, if it's in our collective conscience. Like, we've not seen giants, but something in my guts is afraid of them. You know, as you're talking about them, I have this feeling like, man, these things, it goes back centuries. You're saying that we discount the oral stories and the written stories, and we're just looking for the physical evidence now. That's where we are. Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, you know,

in the history of the North American or the Americas in general, you know, that's why it's been so easy for so many, you know, conventional scholars to just say, to just sweep aside. Was it because of literacy too? You think people just disregarded because they're illiterate? Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, you know, but because there, people from the old world came in with this literate tradition that it, you know, that it existed for thousands of years. People in the Americas are still largely living with oral tradition. They still have that mythological mind, if you will. You know, that's why it's been easy to just sweep aside a lot of. of those stories from this sort of empirical worldviews because, you know, if it wasn't, certainly if it wasn't written down, then, you verify it, right? Like I said, there are cultures that have these mechanisms built in place to ensure, you know,

that the information they're passing along is accurate. They're not just passing on anything. Yeah, they're not just talking around the fire. You know, there's a process that will work here. There's a whole element of their society that's different. devoted to preservation and transmission of this information. So, like, the philosophical evidence of why am I here is just as human as anything else. And obviously now we can just Google whatever we want to read about that.

But in the olden days, sit down your elders, ask them what their elders knew and their elders knew and their elders knew. Try to make some sense of why are we here, right? So these beings, you know, we hear about them in story. We have them written down. and what is the physical evidence that we have? Besides what we've talked about on the show is some of the megaliths, the giant skeletons that they dug up, the mounds in North America,

those are some of the things we've been talking about, which I think we're trying to showcase through various guests, like, hey, look, we've got the bones, we've got the mounds, we've got the newspaper reports. Is there anything outside of that that has blown you away as? Yeah, I can talk about some of the things that I have found, particularly compelling. And I don't want to retread any ground that's been gone over.

You know, all the reports and things that have come out of like the Bureau of Ethnology from like the late 1800s and early 1900s, there's a good case to be made for physical evidence being recorded in those. And I talk about those to some extent in my own books, particularly interview with the giant. Right here in Texas, there are actually some really good. There's a site that was excavated by the WPA. during the 30s down by Victoria, Texas, which is close to the coast.

So the WPA, under the leadership of an archaeologist from, I want to say he's from Harvard, and in conjunction with the Texas Archaeological Research Lab at University of Texas, did an excavation of this Native American mound, and they recovered specimens that were up to eight feet tall. The physical anthropologists that they consulted from the Texas Archaeological Research Lab would never come out and say that they were giants. So far as I know, at least parts of it ended up at the Texas Archaeological Research Lab, though I don't know that they're still there.

Yeah, yeah, we've heard that so many times. And I've talked with the curator at the Museum of the Coastal Bend because I wanted to find this report that this fellow had written. and it too is nowhere to be found. Now, I'm not one of those guys that vilifies the Smithsonian as an institution. I think it was certainly infiltrated. I think it is infiltrated by people with nefarious agenda. But I also think that in large part there are good people who are devoted to their sciences at these institutions.

Same thing with the Texas Archaeological Research Lab. On the other hand, what chain of events had to occur that led to the convenient misplacement of these reports and because now we're largely left with the legacy you know of a finds like that yeah and we've heard some weird ones on our show like we brought on Travis roy who has a count called giants of ancient America and he's got like yeah over 750 documented newspaper reports and some of them had like 50 dwarves buried with them and some of them had horns growing out of their skulls and there was one and the biggest one that we had on record was in luke's backyard in franklin tennessee It was 18 feet.

Yes, sir. 18 feet tall. So how big? I found it 60 feet down in the rock strata when someone was digging a well, according to the newspaper article. And that stuff's just wild. And my thing with all this is, though, is that, yeah, I mean, these things seem to get disappeared one way or another. But the motive behind that is always where I struggle. Like, I just don't, I don't understand.

I still can't completely wrap my head around what narrative is being protected or why you'd want. to read the record of yeah well i think there are a number of reasons for that one of you know one of them is at least married to the kind of intellectual dishonesty that's passed off as intellectual freedom and academia i was in academia for 20 years i can tell you right now that academic freedom is now illusory if it ever existed and secondly let's just say that you know we had hard evidence in hand you know we've got that articulated skeleton that we've been looking at. It's in, you know, it's in proper rock stradum. You know, there's the, the Smithsonian has a big press conference. You know, it makes the news all over the world, you know, giants existed. Here's the proof. You know, here's the, here's the,

the literal smoking gun. Or, you know, they capture one of the ones that's supposed to be, you know, alive today. Duke would love that. Duke would love that, actually. What would, what would this do? not only for the scientific community, or I should say to the scientific community, but what would this do in terms of worldview in philosophy? It would confirm, you know, people would be like, oh, God, they're really were giants. And the Bible talked about them. So what else, you know, oh my gosh, you know, we actually do live in a cosmic battleground, basically. We really are living in our version of Star Wars, you know.

Think for a minute what that would do. it would completely decimate the agenda. Not only would it confirm the biblical, you know, ancient worldview, but it would completely destroy the plans of, you know, whatever appellation you want to give to them, the New World Order, the Illuminati, Luciferians, you know, it's all this, it's all this multi-tendral hydra. It's all the same thing.

And do you think they're behind it? Yeah, but they don't advertise necessarily what they're, what they're doing. They, they, they work in small, you know, little groups. Yeah, I've heard it said that the devil is, the devil only works on the person that he's in the host. Right. He's not, he's not out advertising what he's doing. It's his, it's the goal of this supernatural entities is to, to infiltrate someone's life, but keep it hush, hush, operate like you don't exist. Yeah, you've got, you know, the fallen angelic realm. Think of them as a, is their own black ops organization, their own intelligence organization. Well, how did this, how did the CIA, the NSA, and

you know, probably three-letter organizations that will never hear the names of, how do they operate? We don't know. We've got their, well, we know that they've got their core group of specialists, you know, field men, and then you have analysts, you know, it's a hierarchical compartmentalized sort of organization, but they also have assets that they have out in the field, expendable assets. You know, that's how these people, you know, are working behind the scenes, not only in sciences or museums or whatever, but in all of our cultural institutions. I think they hide it less so now because it's harder to hide those sorts of things, and a whole lot has come to light about their activities. But, you know, it also has to do with the reason that mainstream science and academia wants to just peripheralize and marginalize this stuff. It also has to do with the effects of postmodernism on our intellectual traditions.

Postmodernism, truth is not an objective thing like it used to be under the classical paradigm. Truth is now relative. You can read any hermeneutic into it that you want to. We're reaping the consequences of that right now in our own society. Well, what's true for you? It may not be true for me or whatever. Well, even down to just good and evil, right? Like some of my friends don't think evil actually exists.

It's just a collective of ego and there are no evil entities in the world. It's a matter of perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's postmodernism in a nutshell. There's no absolutes anymore. There's not, it's all relativism.

That's an epiphenomenon of, you know, these intellectual movements that began in the 50s and 60s. And they completely threw out the classical paradigms about the pursuit of truth, goodness, and beauty. And now we're at a point to where education is no longer really education. It's become glorified re-education camps. Also into indoctrination into the preferred narrative, right? That's not an indictment of an institution or even the teachers out there because there are good teachers, but there are also teachers out there who tow the party line. Yeah, we talked to Jeff Meldrum about this. He had a hard time getting tenure and becoming a full professor. just because he was pursuing evidence for Sasquatch.

And he said he literally the dean of the college had to get up and give a faculty meeting and say, if you can't harass people for their research. Like a junior high notes being passed around here, but professors at a college. So we've got a firsthand account of that sort of close-minded system where, you know, if you do teach and if you do pursue and you do try to go get out, out of the box, you're reprimanded by your, uh, your colleagues, right? Yeah, yeah.

It's as, and I, Jed, I was going to say, what I think, what I hear you saying too, I think is true across the board and in all, all disciplines is really you just follow the money, right? Yeah. You follow that money, it'll lead you to exactly to, to what is. But then people say this is conspiratorial. All you guys are talking about is conspiracy theories now, and then they shut us up and

keep going, right? No, I mean, we just talked about it, though, like much of what we consider to be scientific research in the classical sense is funded, either by a grant or by an entity. And so therefore, you have to check a certain amount of boxes in order to receive the money to do the research. Like it or not, a lot of that research is you're working backwards from a conclusion, it feels like. Instead of, in the classical sense, like you're talking about, Jed, you're out there

actually exploring and attempting to discover. We're really just, we're looking for something that we've thinking. we already know and we're looking for the evidence to back that up right and so if you throw a monkey wrench into that with something that doesn't fit the you know that swims upstream against the preferred thought and narrative then you then you then you then you start Nate we've done this a million times you start talking about oh it's a conspiracy theory right which is essentially just CIA propaganda and it always has been that's you want to look up freedom of information act that it's it's it's in there this is a tactic in order to

to decredit or to delegitimize thought that doesn't flow in the direction that the, you know, that the entities prefer and who that entity may be, whether be the government, whether it be whoever's pulling the strings of academia, whoever holds the purse strings to the endowment and so on and so on. But there's good cops and bad cops is kind of what you're saying. Oh, sure, absolutely.

But I think what I'm hearing too is that it's, man, it's the usual suspects, right? It's the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist. Yeah, that's very... And so if you can continue to, you know, to push down, push things and evidence and these things to the, to the back burner into that place of conspiratorial thought, then you can, you can, like Nate was saying, you can continue to say, well, maybe there really isn't good and evil. Maybe, you know, whatever your speak, Oprah says speak your truth, right? Whatever, whatever's true to you. And we lose, we lose a foundation of anything. I mean, I think where we're sitting right now, you talk about watching

a video on YouTube or you watch a video that's been released. You can have 10 different people give you 10 different conclusions based on them wanting that to fit their narrative, not anything other than that and not anything factual out of it either. They'll look at it and interpret it the way they want to, they feel like they're, or they're programmed or their thought, their thought process has been programmed for them to interpret it. And that's, I feel like we live in a clown world, because of that. Like, you don't get, you don't have any absolutes. And facts don't even matter. Stats get skewed. You pull out stats from here and there to, to, to cherry pick in order to, you know, to fall in line or to prove your point, your point of view, not even your hypothesis.

It's just. Yeah, certainly. I mean, I mean, look at the massive censorship, you know, that's happened across, you know, social media platforms. Well, yesterday, they just banned all QAnon from Facebook. Yeah, I know. That's my, my point exactly. I mean. Now we all going to believe it harder. Yeah. You know, if, exactly. It just does the opposite. It just recruits more people.

Exactly. Now, you know, because of things like postmodernism, we're seeing the erosion of our ability to speak freely and to also speak civilly. Duke talked, our first guest talked a little bit about frequencies. And then our last guest talked about frequencies. And Duke was saying our first guest that, that this the one world order, whatever you want to call it, these demonic agencies are trying to lower the vibration of humanity

because they can control it better. And the more our vibrations are in terms of love and a higher frequency, the harder it is for these entities to control the world. And Ron was talking about quantum physics and vibrations and putting out in the universe what you receive. receive and it got really out there and I've heard this several times do you think some of these entities are trying to get us in race wars and political wars and and divide us to get just just to be

so focused on politics to in this stage of hate and I think sometimes I feel like on this show I'm always asking the question like are these entities controlling us because sometimes you you you tune in and you feel like the vibrations are low the anger is high the The division is clear, and I don't feel like that's historically how it's been, but maybe I'm wrong? I don't know. Yes, I mean, I think that there is a, there's a high degree of manipulation on the part of these. I mean, there, there always has been. Yeah, this isn't a new story, right?

I mean, this always has been. And I can, I can name one of the entities that's hard at work in this country right now, because it's one that I've done quite a bit of research on in conjunction with my dissertation. Hillary Clinton? I'm not going to mark her off the list either. I'm talking about an entity. I'm talking about panic. I'm talking about fear.

And as a zasel, I firmly believe that that's one of the entities active in the country right now, not necessarily in in a physical manifestation because he's he's still imprisoned but in some manner or fashion his influence is being channeled into this world and again you know it's not nothing new it always has is it kind of like a drug dealer getting a burner cell phone in prison kind of thing he's still getting yeah yeah exactly you know and i mean the the burner phone being whatever portals can be uh access to gain you know community communication with this entity. Anyway, your, your dissertation was on witchcraft, correct?

My master's thesis was on neo-pagan witchcraft, but my dissertation, my PhD dissertation, was on Paneus, the history of religious history of Paneus. I might have missed that. I don't know we talked about that, but I know we talked about the fact that there's some sightings of goat men and down in South Texas as well. Well, and right here in West Texas, too, you know. I devoted a whole chapter to a book I wrote on the folklore of this area of Texas to the goat man. A lot of those sightings back in the day were right south of where I live right now.

It's interesting on this podcast because I think we call ourselves blurry creatures because all these creatures are in this. You have to kind of describe Narnia, build it out, and the creatures give you credence to the other parts of the story, right? Like Bigfoot is the gateway drug Because when you see this You're like what else is it connected to And then what you're describing is sort of like The fundamental laws of how Narnia works right And we all we all sort of live outside of the wardrobe

And some people decide to go into the wardrobe And see the real world almost right The real the real framework Which the cosmos The rules of the cosmos The ancient people knew these rules right And we don't Like we're blind to them

Yeah, and just like the children who decided to open their eyes and go into the wardrobe, once they return, the experiences that they had there forever changed them. Right. And that's how Sasquatch sightings are. You know, like people will see a Sasquatch and then their whole life kind of changes. I think that you could also apply that to supernatural paranormal experiences of all kinds. You know, it's not something that you can unsee. You can't take that out of your range of experience. experiences, it's something that has become a formative part of you. It changes you. And for people

that have not had those experiences or refuse to, or refuse to even consider that those things are possible, it's easy to, you know, peripheralize and marginalize and basically just throw those things on the dust heap of exploded superstition. Well, I just, my thing is just I want to give listeners who are afraid of the Bible and the supernatural world. Like they can handle Bigfoot for some reason, but they can't handle anything else. And I'm just trying to say like, look, we got to, we got to describe Narnia and Bigfoot's inside Narnia, right? Right.

You can't just go into Narnia and just look for Bigfoot because you're going to run into other stuff. Right. Exactly. So that's what, that's kind of my, I just care about those listeners too. And I'm trying not to overwhelm them, you know, so. Yeah, I completely understand and agree. Now, as far as physical evidence, you know, I'm not just talking about, I mean, the go-to physical evidence, of course, is the skeletal remains.

But we also need to consider, you know, if archaeology is to be a facet of this, then we also need to consider the artifactual evidence that's tied to giants. And there's some really interesting and I think compelling people. pieces of evidence. Most notably, the so-called Goliath shard that was excavated Teleshafi back in 2008, I think. Now, Tela Shafi is the modern name of the city of Gath in the Bible, and this was one of the five major cities of the Philistines. And Goliath had four brothers, right? That's right. And that's why five stones, right? That's why David picked the five stones, because once he finished with Goliath, he was going to go after his brothers. And presumably, you know, he did.

What a badass. Yeah. And it's part of the Goliath shard story. So we can circle back to that. But the reason that the Goli Shard is important. Now, what it is is basically a piece of pottery that was found in the 11th, 10th century BC, Straton. So it's the right time talking of the early period of the United Kingdom history of Israel. you know, when it was still just one country.

And it's a piece of pottery, a pottery shard that has the name, Goliath, scrawled on it. Wow. That's not a smoking gun necessarily, but in my mind, the gun is loaded and cocked, at least. Is it a big piece of, big piece of pottery? Like, am we talking? You know, it's not that big. It's about that big right there. But there have also been found in the same site, inscriptions of the name Ropp.

That's where Raffaim comes from, Rafa, which, which, which Goliath, of course, being a giant would have been associated with. And you also have these actual homes at the side of Gath that have been more recently excavated that are larger than usual, you know, domiciles. They weren't made for people who were, you know, five and a half, you know, six feet tall. They were made, they seem to be made for taller individuals. Yeah, there's all kinds of like big doors and footprints and stone. Well, and the naturalistic explanation of that is that, well, this explains why they thought that giants were here.

Well, another interpretation of that could be that they built these houses because giants lived there. Yeah, I've heard that like the place of the skull where Jesus supposedly, you know, Galgotha. I mean, it's called the place of the skull, which is. Place of the, yeah, not far from there. It's like the valley of the Refheim and the Hebron, you know, was a city that was built. by giants and scattered all throughout the Levant. That's more of that. That would be sort of geographical textual evidence for the legacy of the giants and the

ancient Levant. It's almost like Christians watched a movie the last 20 minutes of it, and they've interpreted it with very little context of why the ending ended the way it did, right? And it's almost like, you know, you watch the sixth sense the second time. back and you realize he's dead the whole time, it's like going back and reading the Bible, including the Giants, just including the Giants, just thinking, it's almost like, oh, when did that happen to you when you couldn't read it the same? Because this happened to me not too long ago, and now it's like I want to go back and reread it all. When did it switch

for you? Well, it goes back to my first work at, at Cessori of Philippa, at Penaeus. you know, as I was the months and weeks before we left, that's when I ran into all this apocryphal literature about Mount Herman and the first generation of Nephilim giants. I remember even, like that semester I was reading, or the semester before, I had read just a ton of stuff on mythology. I went and read, you know, Edith Hamilton and Bullfinch. I read Frasiers, the Golden Bow, and I read Charles Squire's work on Celtic mythology, you know, just anything I could get my hands on. And I was still thinking about, you know, how does this fit into the biblical world? Do you? And as I started looking at the

paracral material and like, okay, not only does that make sense, but I'm going there. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to be there. You know, that's, it wasn't just a moment, but it was this process over those months and weeks. You know, that's how I, how it clicked for me. And a lot of people, I'm sure, you know, you're in this, you're in this world way more than I am. And I'm curious, people probably walk up to you, go, oh, you believe all that heretical material. And they sort of throw heresy at you just like, just like the academics throw anti-science at people. Like, oh, you're pseudoscience. You know, they say that to Jeff Meldrum about Bigfoot research.

He's like, okay, I guess you win, you know, you win the argument. If you say, you're, that's heresy, you're a heretic reading the book of Enoch. How dare you? What do you do with that? How do you, I mean, because it's corroborating all the stories. How could it be heresy, right? Again, that comes from, you know, not studying the Bible in context. You know, like the judgment of the Nephilim just before the flood.

It tells you everything you need to know about their identity after the flood, that they were demons. They're called unclean spirits in the Second Temple period literature. That is the phrase that's used overwhelmingly to describe demons. in the New Testament from the Gospels to Revelation. That's not a happy accident. That is evidence of not just the transmission of intellectual history and cultural tradition, but things that have supernatural things that happen in real space and real time. Well, some of these books were in the Bible, their Bible, back then, right?

And then they just kind of did make the cut later? The canon of the Bible was largely established even before 331. when Constantine called in, this is after Nicaa. Usually people, the popular Da Vinci Code explanation of the canonization of the Bible is that you've got all these bishops meeting for the Mediterranean and they excoriate, cut and paste the Bible. That's not really how it happened because, frankly, for the Mediterranean world, the canon of the Bible was already established.

The Old Testament, the Septuagint, the Greek translation, had already been set up. That was the Tanakh, you know, the Hebrew Bible. The Gospels that had been most widely circulated and the letters that the missionaries were writing, like Paul and Silas and Timothy and all these guys, Peter, who were, you know, going around spreading the message of the gospel, the letters that were the ones that had become accepted. In fact, Ironaeus, one of the early church fathers, writes about this in a couple of his letters about, you know, the material that needs to, this is the most reliable material. And so a lot of that footwork had been done before, even the Council of Nicaea,

but it's after Nicaea in 331, the Constantine says, we need to, now Constantine had his own agenda, and people can think whatever they want to about him, but, you know, he tells this group of bishops that, look, we need 50 copies of Bible, and I need you guys to make a decision on it. Well, the decision had basically already been made a century or more before, as to what was going to go in. The interesting thing about that is that the apocryphal literature, like Enoch and Jasher, Jubilees, and the Genesis Apocrypha,

and even a lot of the, like, the infancy gospels about Jesus and stuff like that, they were teaching material in the first three centuries of the church, obviously, because the church fathers are making references to things like fallen angels and watchers and giants and how evil they were. And so clearly they believed them because there were these anchor points in the canon of the Bible that was accepted even before Nicaea. They were still using all of this literature to teach, you know, at least if they weren't equating it with scripture, with canonized scripture, they at least thought it was good for teaching material.

And it's after the fourth century that this stuff becomes more and more, you know, sort of peripheralized. and considered in some cases, altogether heretical. It's interesting that the rediscovery of a lot of this material in its Hebrew context, specifically the Essene community at Qumran, occurs in a modern age. And in books like Enoch, it's written, there's phraseology in Enoch that says this book was written for a later generation. And it's rediscovered, I mean, there were Ethiopic copies of it before, but the Hebrew copies of it came from Qumran,

and they were discovered in 1947 on the very eve when Israel becomes a nation state again. Weird. That's crazy. Yeah. It's the Dead Sea Scrolls. I mean, they... The irony of the fact that this, at no point in history, if humans had such access to knowledge, such widespread access to knowledge,

the flip side of that, if that's the obverse, then the reverse side of that coin, is never have there been so many people who didn't avail themselves of that knowledge. Yeah, that's what I keep coming back to with my friends too, that there's this whole camp of people who refuse it. Like, there was a joke on Twitter the other day. Like, what do you call Fear of Giants, Fifi phobia? And stupid dad jokes.

And I was like, I think I have a lot of friends who have Fifi phobia. Like they will. That is T-shirt. T-shirt and bumper sticker material right there. Yeah, it's like a dad jokes, Twitter thing. That's going on your minivan, Nate. I had a couple last questions. One is, how do the giants survive the flood?

Do they build their own arc? What do they do? How do they survive that? And two, how big do you think that the originals were? Yeah, because they're a period, you know, in the post-flood, this happened one of two ways. first of all, there were other watcher fallen angel incursions that occurred after the flood, and you have this repeating.

The second possibility is that one of Noah's sons married a woman who had Nephilim DNA, basically, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you read the text of the Noahic story, is that if Noah was pure in his generations, and that's why he was selected for this, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that God would allow contaminated DNA on the ark. That's why I tend to think that there were multiple incursions. And the argument against this that I often hear is that, well, you know, the judgment that was handed down, you know, by God in the pre-flood world, you know, to the watchers and the jump, particularly the watchers, why if their imprisonment was such a, you know, a harsh penalty and they would never be redeemed, why would. did other angels want to do that? Hidden in the question is the answer. First of all, they were in a coup, if you want to put it in political terms, against heaven, against the heavenly order,

against Yahweh, against God. Every act that they are part of after that might be strategic, but it's based on that sort of desperation that they're never going to be redeemed, that they can't go back to what they were. They can't go back to their first estate. So they're going to corrupt destroy, kill, maim, anyone, anything, any institution that they possibly can in this thing that God created, you know, in all of its physicality and preternaturality. So that's why I think that there was a second, you know, like Sodom and Gamora kind of thing, right? However, man, yeah, you know, I mean, heck, you could probably make an argument for the Tower of Babel, you know, being another one of those instances. But it just seems to me that that's the more logical of the two options is that there were,

like in a political coup today, it starts with a movement, an ideological movement, and you may not get everybody in the first pop. You know, you'll have people that join in later iterations of it. And I think by that same logic, you know, that's why you have incursions after

the flood, and that's how these other tribes of giants emerge. Yeah, I mean, it's like what we got going on the West Coast. There's people starting fires all over the place, right? Right. And in the same sense, you've got people starting these fires of giants and they're spreading and they're you got one popping up here you got one popping up there um and then ironically you need a worldwide flood to put out all the fires so yeah so what

why did this end and was it was it the coming and of jesus that ended ended this this incursion or was just a thing this was just a it happened over a period of time and then just stopped happening for whatever reason there's a strategy that was well it's a it's a couple of things uh i think I think the appearance of Jesus events in his life, notably the crucifixion, but also his visitation of Cessaria Philippi. He's basically firing a shot over the bow at the enemy. Even his word choice for the church, the ecclesia, the assembly that not only harkens back to the Athenian assembly, but the very assembly of the gods.

What he's saying is that you guys have completely screwed the pooch. You've lost your job, and I'm replacing you with my assembly. That was the whole idea behind the church is literally reclaiming that title, the sons of God, the Benachah al-Aim, which James also echoes in his, but getting back to why the giant sort of die out. You know, we talked about Goliath a minute ago. The battle between David and Goliath, which is not, by the way, how Western Asian armies at that time fought, that's more like Achilles and Hector, you know, in the

Iliad. The battle between this fight, this duel between David and Goliath is a last-ditch attempt to try and destroy the bloodline of the Messiah. We tried to manipulate it, pollute it, destroy it up to there. Here's the point where we can do that. We can kill it off in one fell swoop. And that was not successful, obviously. David was a direct ancestor on Jesus' mother's side. And, his father's side if if if nazareth was a you know nezzer was a branch of the davidic line um his earthly father but but specifically his mother in other words this the there's a whole lot of you know the seed of the woman stuff from genesis three that you could get into there but the fact is is that a lot of the steam had sort of been taken out of giant kind at that and i wrote a paper on the

giant diaspora that took place at that point and a lot of them went west they went to lands where they could, they felt that they could manipulate people again. And so they took the religion of the watchers and the giants and this bloodthirsty cult. They tried to oppress people in the Americas. So you see the blood sacrifices of the Aztecs and those Mayans and all that stuff. Even the mother civilization in Mesoamerica, the Olmec. You know, they practice ritual sacrifice.

And there's a lot of megalists out there too. that's the other thing too so that i think it lends that the credence to that to that theory yeah i mean whether by you know i think a lot of the architecture the megalithic architecture of the ancient world begins with this knowledge that the watchers you know hand down to humans because it's you know it's at that point that you start to see the big more complex megalithic structures places like go beckley teppy and in eastern turkey and uh even natufian era jericho from the 10th 10th millennium BC, Telf Caramel in Syria. You know, there's a laundry list of them.

Wherever you see the presence of giants and watchers, you tend to see this kind of architecture. And that's certainly the case in the new world. And how big are they, the originals? Like there's, you know, there's 20 footers in America, they say, like skeletons. Are you asking about the pre-flood or post-flood? Man, I guess both. Yeah, we're both.

Well, the problem with getting a sense of the pre-flood giants is that the Enoch says that there are 3,000 else. Well, the debate continues about how large an ill is. You know, just given the fact that the oxygenation of the environment at that time was more, you have to consider the possibility that Fuller genetic expression was a likelihood. And so they probably did exceed, you know, the sort of tors. 20 foot, you know, 18, 20 foot barrier, you know, that we think of in terms of post-flood giants. But as far as post-flood, you know, it's clear, clearly that probably because of, you know, the changes in our ecology and oxygenation of the environment, it's why we don't have a lot of

megafauna around too is because you can't have that. And so the giants became, you know, progressively smaller, you know, you start seeing the 15 foot, 13 foot, 9 foot, and 8 foot, So it's possible they were, they were 50, 60 foot tall, big, big place. It's entirely possible. I mean, they could have been 100 feet tall for all we know. I mean, it's just crazy. You know. I mean, it says in numbers, they said they look like grasshoppers.

So that could be pretty accurate. Yeah. Those are historical giants. You know, I mean, you know, even if you got some, even if you got a guy that's, you know, let's say 18 or 20 feet tall, I mean, you're. That's a big. That's a big boy. That's, that's a big dude. year. Well, that's a big guy for him over here in America. So that means, you know,

he, Judd, Nate always wants him to be like 50 feet tall. Just, just, just for, for transparency. He always wants 50, he wants big 50 foot tall red hair. Well, the red hair goes back to my ancestors. Red hair. Okay. Well, is there, or is there, uh, polydactyl in your family? Who knows? Yeah, how many fingers you have? Are you hiding, are you hiding, are you hiding a six toe on one of your feet. Oh, no way. I'm a sensitive giant. I do. The San Francisco Giants were my favorite baseball team since I was a kid, so. Now we're full circle. Yeah. Who knows? Wait till all these Star Wars fans, when the days of Noah return and those nerds realize tattooing creatures have come back to claim the world, and they are in a Star War. They have no idea what's coming.

Are the days of Noah upon us again? Are these creatures coming back? I've never been a date setter, you know, in terms of biblical prophecy, but it seems like we're on the precipice of it. You know, we're on the threshold of it. I think if anything, we're in the birth pangs or the time of Jacob's trouble. So we're getting, we're getting close. You know, it's beyond debate that we've cooked up these hybrid creatures, you know, in our own laboratories, usually under defense contracts. But this is different than the days of Noah, right?

This is more human experiments, not celestial or supernatural experiments? Well, we're talking about semantics again. Right. You know, is it technology or magic? Yes. The answer is yes. It's both. Clearly, the Genesis 6, the Watcher experiment,

was a drastic manipulation of the human genome to produce. not just the giants, but these other chimerical hybrid creatures. Like Pegasus and unicorns and flying wild. Centaurs and everything else. Are the dinosaurs a part of that? I've heard it argued that they are. It's a little bit out of my wheelhouse because I'm not... I love your wheelhouse. It's a big wheelhouse. I love it. Well, thank you. It makes sense that the evidence of violence between those creatures and the violence of their hunts is in the paleontological

record. And so it's a distinct possibility that the carnivorous dinosaurs like Allosaurus and Tyrannosaurus and velociraptor were offshoots of this experimentation. You know, it does say that, you know, I'm trying to think of the phraseology that's used in Enoch, but birds and reptiles and all manner of animals were corrupted. That makes sense. Right. And I mean, I saw something this week talking about, the scientists are saying that they believe a lot of these dinosaurs, including a couple you just talked about, had feathers. Now, that doesn't sound like a hybrid creature.

I don't know what it is, because it seemed like the Carnivus ones would sound like a lizard bird hybrid, right? Or they push it into the Darwinian theory section talking about evolution. That seems more far-fetched than thinking that there was some, you know, some nefarious experiments going on in mixing these types of creatures. Yeah, and I think that, you know, those kinds of experiments, in the pre-flood world probably contribute a lot to the sort of processual evolution, certain species that lead to theories about, you know, dinosaurs are still around. They just changed into birds. You know, they just evolved into birds.

If you're looking at speciation through the lens of the biblical worldview and, in fact, the ancient worldview, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You know, and besides, uniform processual evolution is, just, it's sort of been blown out of the water anyway. And I certainly, I don't want to get bogged down in a discussion about evolution, but it, you know, it depends on microevolution or adaptation is perfectly scientific and sound. We see that, you can see that in, you know, two or three generations. But the big sort of huge, punctuated equilibrium, you know, kind of jumps. The macro evolution, to my mind, scientifically, has never held much water. I mean, the more we

discover on this show, the more we paint the picture of the antediluvian world. And that's why we brought you on this episode because we wanted to get a clear picture. It sounds like Jurassic Park meets Dr. Jekyll meets Star Wars. You had maybe foot-long cockroaches running around the floor, 50-foot giants, crazy creatures of all kinds. And in order to really give you an idea of maybe what Bigfoot came from and all these creatures that we still see today, we kind of needed to shape this world. And a lot of the way to do that is go and look in the Bible. And I think a lot of people tune out when you talk about the Bible.

But we appreciate you, Dr. Jed, coming on and painting the antediluvian world for us, giving us a real look into that. How can our listeners find you? This will come out. And then I really want to have you back for a Halloween show. That was a good idea, actually. But yeah, people can get a hold of me at Burton Beyond.com. You can check me out at the Institute of Biblical Anthropology at T-I-O-B-A.org.

Email is Professor Burton at Yahoo.com. I'm on Twitter. I've got a YouTube channel where you can get into all this kind of craziness with me on a more personal level. I appreciate it. I love it. I mean, you've opened us up to so much of this. And I think the Giants are a big part of asking yourself, what is Bigfoot? Does it go back to these Titans?

that roamed around and yeah and i'm sure i'm going to say this right now i'm glad i live now said it back then because it sounds like well yeah it's not a fun time it's definitely an it's an interesting town to be alive yeah for sure and you know giants are perennial we're talking about about the biblical world and the ancient nearies but they're a perennial feature in world mythology chad i appreciate it i don't know i just love it when it just feels like a natural conversation sitting around the bonfire talking about this stuff so we really yeah absolutely well have you have to have you back on again and um thanks for giving us an insight into the ancient world my pleasure be happy to much judd absolutely you guys take care you too you too