Blurry Creatures - EP: 115 Skinwalkers & Shapeshifters with Navajo Ranger Jon Dover

Episode Date: July 13, 2022

The most desolate and wild places often become ground zero for encounters with the unexplained. In this episode, we uncover the secrets of a creature so taboo that many Native Americans do not even speak its name for fear it will draw one to them. The Skinwalker. Jon Redbird Dover joins Blurry Creatures for the first time to unpack a 30-year career as a Navajo Ranger. Over his tenure, Jon and his partner Stan Milford Jr. officially investigated UFO sightings and encounters, hauntings, Bigfoot encounters, and incidents and homicides involving the infamous Navajo shapeshifter—the Skinwalker. Jon’s job as a Ranger was to respond to emergency calls on the expansive Navajo reservation and investigate the unexplained. He has tracked Bigfoot, investigated attempted UFO abductions, and tracked down and identified Skinwalkers. Guest: Navajo Rangers Intro song: Juno Dreams "Paradise" contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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Nathan. Luke. Welcome back to blurry creatures. Welcome back. How you feeling, Luke? Pretty good. Pretty good, man. New dad. New dad.

New dad. Hernia surgery. It's been a fun little few weeks here. You're just putting all that personal info out on the podcast. Hey, I'm an old man now. What, I got nothing to hide. Luke's warming up, guys. He's getting vulnerable.

Sharon, sharing his heart. That's right. Tin Man has a heart. Barely. Yes. I'm the emo kid. You're the, I got to get you to warm up. Have I cracked that heart of yours after a hundred and something episodes?

Did it was cracked early on, Nate? I remember early on you were like a little skeptical of alien stuff. Well, I'm still much more skeptical, I think, than you are. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I just had all these hours of listening to weird stuff. Sure. I was way more prepped for what was coming at us. I mean, it was still a wave, but I was just sometimes I'm like, I wonder what Luke's thinking right now.

I've heard this, but I don't know if he has. Well, you know me. Like, I love, I love docs and podcasts. I love to learn. So, that's maybe the coolest thing about this is not only, well, not only is it fun. Yeah. But I feel like it could sit and learn. And that's been really part of the amazing.

And doing it with a biblical worldview and from a perspective of, you know, of and through the Bible, I think, has just been just the coolest experience to just to learn and to ask questions, right? I mean, that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to ask questions, I think, and define why we believe and what we believe. And this has been, you know, it's been experienced doing this. So, you know, I don't know how far. I don't know where there is.

particularly speaking, but coming along. There's a fine line, and I think a lot of people get mad if we get close to the line, or we go over the line, and we cross the line. Everyone's got their line of what's too blurry or too weird, too strange. But, I mean, we can't say thanks enough to you guys out there. Luke and I had a conversation this morning, actually, and we figured out that we were, I just looked, we were, we made it in the top 100 of all podcasts in America this week,

which is just mind-blowing. And I don't think either of us ever thought we would even crack the top 2000, you know. I don't think you ever thought that that was even part of what we were doing. Yeah. I mean, this has been a passion, a passion project, right? Yeah. It's super cool to see the community that's grown out of this. And just kind of where this is gone.

I mean, I think it's a lot bigger than we are. And you just got to listen to our voices. Oh, they like you. They like you, Luke. You got some good resonance in there. Turn the base down in that car now, huh? I mean, you make me scared when I stand next to you. Luke's a giant, guys.

We talked about giants a lot on the show. You stay next to Luke and you're afraid. Mostly gentle. He's a gentle giant. He would be, huh? Yeah. So get the show started or what? It's like, stop talking about me.

Stop talking about me. No, but seriously, I want to say thanks. If you want to support the show, support the podcast, blurrycreatures.com slash members. It's been a crazy year for both of us. everything from I don't know just personal stuff coming at us

to Luke's dad now to you know venturing off on this is what I'm doing I'm podcasting now and your membership you know is what we're riding on

so if you want to become a member and sponsor the show help me take care of my family is that too desperate no doesn't at all all right yeah blurrycrucrucruits.com slash members

become a member of the show We do chats. You get exclusive content. You get bonus episodes, early episodes. You get to get on these chat apps like Discord, Facebook, and we talk to you. We respond to you. And yeah, the memberships is what we do here. And we love hanging out with you guys.

And if you haven't been able to taste the community here on Blurry Creatures, you got to try it. You guys are the best. Drink deep. It always goes down smooth. And this episode is actually inspired by a member of the show. We have a spreadsheet. You can put on guest suggestions. And this episode is one of those.

So not only do members make this happen, you guys really influence the show, way more than you think you do. So become a member, support the show, become of the member's chats, be part of the members' groups, maybe even join a blurry Bible study. Those were happening.

Aside from what were, we didn't plan it. We don't run them. But there is a really amazing community that blossom, you know, people that are seeking the truth alongside what we're doing. Thankful for the members. Thankful the people that sponsor the show. Give us good tips and leads to who's the next blurry guest on blurry creatures. And if your pastor, pastors are shouting out blurry creatures from stage. People are sending us photos all over the world.

Merchandise is rolling. People snapping shots of their T-shirts all over the place. Man, we can't say thank you enough to what this show has become. that it's just two knuckleheads asking questions, basically in our underwear, in the basement. And now, some reason. Eating guacamole. Yeah.

We're still doing that, but we're a top 100 podcast, Luke. How do you feel? Feels good. That's right. Even you can start a podcast in your underwear and get to the top. Believe. Believe in Bigfoot and believe in your podcast, right? Yeah.

It's exactly right. Actually, don't believe, according to John. No, no that Bigfoot is out there. Right. All right, I'm going to stop talking now. Let's get John on the show. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it.

I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, They have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Thanks for coming back on the show.

There was so much good stuff in our last interview with you. I'm sure it'll all come out again. For those listening, we recorded, I think it was a little over an hour episode. And mysteriously, the audio was gone, missing. and I went back and looked at it and I don't know what happened, but it didn't record. So we're double recording today. Hopefully we get all this on.

But John, welcome back to Blurrier Creatures. We kick it off. We talk about Bigfoot. I think you know what we're going to ask you because we did last time. We always ask people at the top of the hour. What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? And tell us a little bit about yourself, too, whatever order you want to go in. But thanks again for coming on the show.

Well, we'll start off with the basis, who I am. My name is Jonathan Redbird Dover. I'm Native American. I'm also part Filipino. I was born and raised in Los Angeles of all places and went to school out there. As soon as I graduated, I moved Arizona. In 1980, I got on with the Navajo Nation Rangers. I didn't know what a ranger was, but I needed a job. I went in and they only asked me one question. What would you do if somebody threatened your life or the life of your family? And my answer to them was, I'll cut their ears off at 300 yards with the 300 Savage. And they said, you're hired. So come to find out that the guy before, the two guys before me, one was beaten up rather badly and tied up with a rope and his badge was pinned onto his rear. second one came out, spent one day. They threatened him and his family. He loaded up his truck

with all his equipment and parked it and sat at the chapter house and says, come and pick it up. I quit. Wow. Wow. So a pretty lawless area when I first got here. I've had three assassination attempts on my life. Wow. And managed to survive them all. So here I am. Dang. Well, hey, you know, that's how it goes, you know? If it's easy, you know, you're probably not doing something right, you know? When you start working for God and trying to expose evil, things come at you. John, I love it. You know, the guy lasts a day and you, you, was you retire after 30 years?

30 years. Yeah, 31 years. It's amazing. That's phenomenal. One day versus 30 years. Yeah, that's crazy. Three assassination temps on your life. And here you are on blurry creatures.

And we're excited to have you. because we know one thing, and then even previous to our last conversation, is that there's a lot of crazy and paranormal unexplained phenomena that seem to happen in and around the Native American reservations and places of the like across our country. And we also know in North America here. As Nate said, though, our first question for you are what are your thoughts, and we always kick every show off, Nate, like this, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Of course, there's no right answers.

Only good answers as far as we're concerned. Well, hopefully we'll give you a good answer here. My personal experience with Bigfoot, and I'm going to state this right up front, me and Stan do not like that term. Because belief is to accept something without any evidence. I mean, I'm talking about the evidence in faith that you have. that you just, you accept it and you believe it. Whereas in our case, empirical evidence, evidence that I can take to court and testify to under oath

is that this thing is real. We've tracked him. We've got measurements and pictures of tracks that'll measure 22 inches. We've tracked him for miles, five foot stride from heel to heel. and if you're walking on stills, you can't walk miles in a pair of stills and lead tracks like that. In order to make those tracks myself, I would have to literally do the splits to make that kind of a stride.

And I'll be honest with you, I can't do the splits. John, real quick, was that in Arizona where you were a track? Was this on the job when you were tracking Bigfoot? Yeah, Navajo Nation is a big reservation. It is 27,000 square miles or 17 million acres of land. It is in part of northern Arizona in New Mexico and also in Utah, southern Utah. So there's a lot of ground to cover. Essentially, if you went from Flagstaff to Albuquerque, a lot of what's north of you is going to be reservation land.

So it would take me about five hours to completely cross it. That part of the country is beautiful. Like I love Flagstaff. It kind of starts getting more woodsy. Right. It's like you're in the desert forever. And all of a sudden you're like, where did this come from? It snows.

It's crazy. It is wild. I mean, I've camped there several times. I love that part of the country. Flagstaff is a beautiful town. Well, we have areas of desert and canyons. Part of the Grand Canyon is right next to the reservation. In fact, all the way down to half of the Colorado River, we have jurisdiction there.

And then we run up into the higher plateaus, and then we get into the Ponderosa Pine Forest, Pinyon Juniper areas. And yeah, really good mule deer hunting, elk hunting up there. So, yeah. How many rangers are on patrol and like on staff, I guess, you can. say any given moment. When I first started, we had 40 Rangers covering the entire reservation. Wow. Every year after I was there, we lost funding because we're entirely tribally funded.

So at the end, there were only about 14 or 15 Rangers when I finished. And they were still being cut up to a couple of years ago. I think there were only nine rangers. Wow. That's a, I mean, that's a ton of acreage per ranger. If you break that down per capita, that's like,

yeah, a UFO to cover all the distance. It's an impossible job. It's an impossible, yeah. Right, right. I just, I just looked at it as a glass half full. Right. And, you know,

I figured, hey, this is a great job security. You know, they can't afford to fire me. Right. Although they did, they did lay me off at the end. John, well, tell us about a couple of these times you say you tracked Bigfoot,

like, Yeah. I mean, if this happened, tell us about what, I mean, because, I mean, how does that come about one and two, like, you know, what does that process? Then how, I mean, how does it end? I obviously didn't end with you, you know, shaking hands with the big guy necessarily. But, you know, how does that? Usually those tracks just go missing. They just disappear.

Are you like getting a call, though? Someone's saying, hey, there's potentially a Sasquatch out here and then you guys are going and tracking this thing? Or how does that even work? And can you tell us, you share maybe a story about, about incident like that? Well, our calls are all through our dispatch, and they're through individual rangers that have things reported to them. Let me take you back a little bit and digress. And this is how we first got into this investigation of paranormal cases. We had two Rangers that they were both rookies at the time.

And you have to understand these guys. These guys are jokers. They get out together and they got all their. little private jokes and they're giggling and laughing all day long. And that's just how they are, you know, if you knew them. So grandma and grandpa reports that a big foot walked up to their corral as they're watching. They stepped over the corral, grabbed a sheep, tucked it under its arm, and walked off again with it. So they're upset. And they know all the animals out there. They don't speak English, they've lived out there all their lives, they know every animal. So they call

and these two two jokers get sent out. Once they get sent out, they show up. And of course, they're laughing and giggling amongst themselves and talking. And grandma and grandpa took offense to this. And they thought these guys aren't being serious and they're laughing at us. In Navajo culture, you have a lot of respect for your elders. And so they called our department director and I like to say grandma chewed them out as only a grandma can and just ripped them upside one way and down the other. So he called everybody in for a department meeting. And in our meeting, he's told everybody from now on every single one of these cases is going to be investigated thoroughly and it's going to be documented. Then he turned me and Stan and he says,

and you guys, so we were voluntled, you guys are going to get the main cases, you know, the big cases out of this. And you're going to do the investigations on them. So we just looked at each other like, wow, X-Files. Right, yeah. And we didn't know quite what to make of it, although it sounded interesting. And we didn't think too much about it. until a little while later, dispatch gave us a call,

and they said that there were a lot of people up in the Shiprock area, 30 people that had witnessed or had some encounter with Bigfoot along the San Juan River. Wow. Wow. You know, it's funny. All I can think about when you're talking about this is that famous scene from Butch Cassie and Sundance Kid. Remember when they're trying to get away? Did you ever see that movie, John?

Yeah, I've seen part. Yeah. Well, they bring in the Native American tracker and he tracks them and he keeps tracking him and they can't get away. And it's kind of incredible. It's an incredible scene. But they were just constantly like going over rocks and stuff. So you're tracking. You said you tracked Bigfoot for several miles.

Did, you know, the footprints disappear? Did you get close to some kind of domiciles, some sort of nest or? When you track, there's a whole lot of tracking. It's not just looking in the ground. Yeah. like they show on TV. In combat tracking, one person is the guard with a carbine. The other person is tracking, so he can devote all his skills to that

because you can actually walk into an ambush that way. You know, you may hit a clearing and that's a kill zone. So you box around it, staying in the forested part, come back around and pick up the tracks again. So you're not exposing yourself. in these cases when you're tracking, you're actually developing your own opinions and thoughts on what it is your tracking and what their mindset is, what they're thinking. Are they going through easy areas or are they going through tough areas, you know,

through the brush and everything else? Are they trying to lose you? Are they walking backwards? Are they turning around and looking at you to see what your progress is? you can find all that out as you track. They may even zigzag. And once they zigzag a few times, you can determine that they're zigzagging,

but they're still heading in this one direction. And the whole idea, in a good tracking scenario, you're actually going to get around them because you know which direction they're heading and head them off at the pass, so to speak, and ambush them and hopefully make them give up. So that's the purpose of combat tracking. I've personally tracked people for 15 and even up to 30 miles through desert terrain.

So I can say that, yeah, it's effective. So in this case, we would lose the tracks occasionally. You start casting. You spiral out or you have a grid pattern that you use to cover all the available ground. And you kick it up again. And you just keep going like that. Sometimes the ground is hard enough or it may have duff on it. Duff is the pine needles and stuff that build up.

So, you know, you're going to be casting ahead to find, you might find some stones that got pushed into the earth. And you're going to key on those as weight. Every person that moves across the ground leave some evidence of their passing. It's just up to you to find that evidence and interpret it correctly. and then move on. So that's what we would do. And then we get to a point where we have what we call trackable ground. The ground is soft enough that if you were to other step, you'd leave a track.

And the tracks disappear. Wow. And so we went the other direction and backtracked it from where we started to see where it was coming from. And same thing, you go through all this. It's very time-consuming. and we get to a point intractable ground where the tracks just started. Wow. So we think our supposition from all this is that it's very possible that Bigfoot may be a

multi-dimensional being that he is coming through a portal into our existence here or our frequency stopping for a little bit and then disappearing back almost like you're your snap back by a giant rubber band or something. The other thing that we've noticed is over a lot of years of doing these investigations, we see a correlation in UFO sightings along with Bigfoot sightings. So back to the story, we get up to Shiprock and we took six rangers with us to do this investigation. They had gone to the local police department and telling them, hey, we've got all these

sightings. We want you to come out and investigate. the lieutenant at the police department laughed at them and said, I wonder how much these people have had to drink. And that's what was reported in the papers up there. So now the people didn't want anything to do with the police department, so they contacted the Rangers. So, you know, we covered the area with six officers.

We had night vision equipment. We had Ford looking infrared systems and pretty much scoured the area. and each ranger was assigned to contact the families in their area and get right reports on the statements that they made. So at the end of this thing, we found foot tracks. We found passages where it had gone through. We found one place where had literally in a swampy area picked up a huge log out of the muck and lifted it up and threw it to the side.

and the bigfoot guy investigator that was with us that we had invited, he says, oh, it's looking for grubs under the log. We found hair samples near a barbed wire fence that it had stepped over. And we sent the hair samples off to someplace in Colorado. And it came back unknown carnivore. Oh,

Nate, this is one of the best answers we've had. I mean, literally like you've got a guy giving us evidence. I mean, this to me though is the crazy thing and you got you did this is that we hear these things like where the footprints disappear right it almost sounds like david politis stuff too with the missing four and one where these footprints just disappear but with bigfoot and you got you've got expert trackers you've got them using the equipment and UFOs yeah and what's people

supposed to be is like a gigantic antipithecus right this like just very elusive giant ape shouldn't be able to just disappear and stop walking on the earth and then start walking somewhere else. That stuff doesn't really throws a lot of holes into the idea this is a flesh and blood creature that lives full time in this dimension

as crazy as that may sound saying that out loud, it makes so much sense. And I love that this is what, this is such a crazy, cool job that you guys were out there tracking this thing. Yeah. You know, and putting all your police training and all the technology to work.

That's crazy that they let you do all. that to be honest like that's like so many bigfoot guys so many the bigfoot dudes that that's their dream is to get paid to do what you're doing yeah true believe it or not we were assigned these cases amazing on our own you know we've been investigated hauntings bigfoot UFOs and the fabled nato skinwalker in all these cases we have never voluntarily said, hey, let's go out and look for Bigfoot on our own time. Or let's go to this haunted place and see we can see a ghost. These were assigned cases and we took them as such.

And how does that happen? Is there like enough activity that's taking place for you guys to then get the call from the boss man? Like, okay, this is reoccurring. Because if you think about, like you were saying in the beginning of the show, there's so much territory for you guys have to cover, you would think that maybe a Bigfoot thing wouldn't make it on the list of priority. but it sounds like it stole livestock though so then it becomes sort of like a crime was committed right like for all intents and purposes yeah that's right well we classified them because we didn't have anything in our in our number system we had a four-digit number for every case that we would take

and livestock predation was a number we would also have a wild animal complaint such as a cougar or a bearer that was preying on livestock and so a lot of these these cases because we didn't have anything to put them under, we would put them under, for Bigfoot, we'd put them under wild animal cases. But we had numerous cases and a lot of them were word of mouth that people just heard we were doing it and would contact us or police departments would say, hey, you know, Rangers, we heard, you know, this is going on and you know, you might want to take a look at it, contact this person. So they were all through official channels. It's amazing. Like you said, and for our work, it represented less than 1% of all the work we were doing.

We were doing dignitary protection. Our group was called special projects. Both me and Stan were a SWAT team co-commanders. We had our own backcountry SWAT team. That's awesome. That was fully trained. So both of us are firearms instructors. So that took up a little bit of our time.

I'm trained as a technical accident investigator. I'm trained as an EMT base. Basically like a Navy C. that also does Little X-Files work on the side, it sounds like it's- That's right. It's phenomenal. My original goal was to be on a Green Beret A team out of high school. And to that end, I signed up.

I was supposed to go to the 173rd Ranger Battalion. And then after that, I was well airborne training to Rangers. And then I was hopefully to take the Q course. Turns out that one of my ROTC instructors was in the 7th special four. forces and one of my academy instructors was in the fifth special forces. So, you know, I got along with special forces types really good. But I ended up going to school and Flagstaff instead. And I just wanted to get out of the house. Yeah. Like we all, like we all did. We were 18 years old, right? Well, John, I've heard the green berets get called in many times for some of these cases.

That's what I've heard, too. They bring them in. And they're tracking, and disappearances, people going missing. And they don't communicate with the locals. They don't communicate with the park. They just come in and then they leave. Yeah. What do you think is going on there? Oh, I think it's, it's, these cases are big enough.

They're drawing enough attention. And you have to understand that the government is very, very interested in this stuff. We've had, I'll say, government agents. We don't know who they are or who they work for, but they've shown. showed up at our conferences and our talks when we're speaking. And they'll sit in the back with a clipboard. They'll take notes. And then they'll quietly get up and leave before the program's over.

And so we'd take into calling them out and saying, you know, welcome any military or government agents that are here. You have to understand Indian tribes are not trusting of the government to start. Yeah, I was going to say, do the feds and, I mean, how much do they, can they come on your land and do anything? Sure. Sure. The FBI has jurisdiction in major cases. So, you know, they've, they can come on for big things. After some of our incidents, we've actually seen helicopter flights fly over from the Gallup area or from Flagstaff. And Stan lives near Gallup. I live near Flagstaff. So it just takes a matter of, I carry a compass in my truck. And I just take it out, shoot an azimuth on which direction they're heading to.

Later on, I'll take a map and I'll scribe a line from where I saw them in the azimuth that they're heading. And it'll actually coincide with exactly where we were doing the investigation on a UFO case. Whoa. That's not surprising actually at all. Yeah, so we know they're interested. What is the Bigfoot UFO connection in your mind? What is that? We suspect, or you know, this is just thinking out of the box. So you have to understand that this is speculation. And our speculation is that there may be a direct tie to UFOs or UFOs could be opening a dimensional gate somewhere that these things are also coming through. Maybe the gate is not just for the ship, but it appears in numerous places at the same. same time. So, you know, you have the famous case at Skinwalker Ranch where one was seeing a hole that opened up in the middle of the night with blue sky behind it. And a bigfoot type creature crawled through it, fell to the ground and got up and walked off. And this is when the Sherman's still on the ranch. And they went out and sat out all night to see what was going on. So you have

cases like this that that kind of fuel that type of speculation. Did you get those calls? Did you get called anything like that? Well, we have an area near Greaswood that is very similar. We've had incidents involving UFOs, Bigfoot and Skinwalkers, all in that same area. And interestingly enough, it's on the same longitude that Skinwalker Ranch is. Wow. So, you know, there's some speculation there that as to lay lines and power grids and everything else. Yeah, I mean, just on our show, Luke, I mean, I feel like we've done several episodes on that part of the country, specifically, you know, megalithic stuff, you know, up and down.

We talked about, you know, there's supposedly a bunch of stuff that was found in the Grand Canyon. And it goes back to the Canaanites. Right. All the stuff in Chaco and the Anastasi and all these different things that happen all in that same area. Yeah. It's all really weird stuff. But John, you dropped like a little bomb on us and then they just kind of kept talking

because that's what you do. But you said you investigated UFOs, hauntings, and then, you know, the Skinwalker. I wanted, you were talking to talk about anyway, but I really wanted to ask you specifically because the Skinwalker phenomena is very much like a Navajo thing for the most part. We'd love to have you to just talk a little bit about that

and then maybe some of your experiences because we haven't had, it's been talked about in sort of platitudes on our show, but we haven't really really dug into it. And it's funny you mentioned Skinwalker Ranch. I'm actually watching that show, which I think is also kind of fascinating, even though it's made for TV,

that some of these weird things like you say, these portals opening up and there's all this phenomena. And then somehow it's connected to the Navajo and or that piece of, actually, that piece of land, of which I know that is probably somewhat adjacent to a lot of the Navajo Nation that you patrolled. So I love to just to hear you talk a little bit about that.

And then maybe some, if you have any stories of actually being on calls for Skinwalker, we've kind of just scratched, if anything, just scratched the surface on any of that. And I think you were uniquely qualified, haven't been a Navajo Ranger to talk about that. Okay. First off, I'll start with something directly related to Skinwalker Ranch, which is that there's a story that says that the Utes provided scouts for Kit Carson and his cavalry when they were rounding up the Navajos. Now you'll hear a lot of stories.

There's different takes on how this all occurred. The historical version that we hear in the history books today is that, oh, the Navajos were stealing. They were stealing horses and cattle, and they had to be rounded up and stopped. Well, come to find out that in 1864, actually 1863, a government military assay was going through the reservation, and he looked at all the formations and says, there's gold out there. Now, gold had just been discovered in Prescott. So the government decided we need to get rid of those Navajos so we can mine up there without any conflict.

And that's what caused the roundup. They were taken off and basically forced march to Bosque Redondo about 250 miles away. It was kind of like Navajo version of the Batan death march. So a lot of them died along the way. Afterwards, they found out, hey, there's actually no gold up there because it's the wrong, the wrong geologic formations. So they allowed them to come back. So the story is that the Navajo's got together, the medicine men, and they cursed the land that the Utes were on and said, you're going to have skin walkers now up there. and so that's the romantic story.

I had an opportunity to go on to Skinwalker Ranch in one of the episodes and look at some pectoral lists and look at what appeared to be to me a sacred site. That was set by the Utes or even prior to, you know, the Utes being there, maybe the Fremont. And I came to the conclusion that a lot of this strange activity has been taking place for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. And so the romantic story that Navajo's cursed the Utes and caused all this stuff to happen, I believe, is not correct. I think that that thing's always been there. And, you know, who knows what they're going to find out. Bigelow Aerospace Research actually owned that land prior to, and they researched it savagely. And at the end, everything's still classified to this day.

This was just bizarre. I've heard that. For whatever reason, it's all under lock and key, which makes you scratch your head a little bit, right? Yeah, that's, I mean, John, that's kind of what I brought up the sort of my point earlier about that area, because I think, I mean, it seems like on our show that all this stems from ground. zero, you know, from the Holy Lands, these entities came, went all over the place, these Canaanites and these giants. And they, I think they taught the spiritual, these dark practices, this witchcraft to all the people all over the world, you know, whether it's in South America, whether it was here in America. It came from somewhere. And I think it came from whenever the Israelites were

pushing these entities, these giants out of places like Canaan. And they, because we find evidence on our show that they were building the same stuff all over the world. And there's all these connections. Like, how could this group of people be building the same thing as this person, these people, all the way across the world, especially at that time? So I wonder if some of those areas, they've been defiled by these entities that got there long before the Native Americans were there, you know? And it's just sort of this inherited story. But that's my thought. That's what seems to be going on the more we do our show. I don't know if you have if you have any of those thoughts, but we talk about the giants a lot on our show. Well, in Navajo history, their oral

history talks about giants being in the world. It appears to me the Navajos themselves say that it came through several different worlds to this world, which is considered the fourth world. So the first world was a world of darkness. They come up into a second world. world that has aquatic life and land. And then they come into a third world that has insects. And then now in the coming into the fourth world or the shining world, which we're in now, they actually give a description. They say a hole opened up in the sky. And so the Navos took a couple of, what they call them reeds, but they sound like there are some type of wood that they leaned up into the hole. and they climbed up into this world and emerged in the place of emergence or dineta,

which is up in the four corners region. So they've come into this world. Yeah, sounds like a Stargate or a portal almost, right? Like a hole opening. That's right. But in the previous world, they had giants described. And in fact, you have the twins called the giant. science slayers. So, you know, they were actually going out to kill these things.

So, you know, there is a long, long history. Yeah, there's lots of petroglyphs. It looks like they're killing these things. Right. You know, and they look, they look massive and they look strange. They almost look aliens sometimes, too. Now we get into this world and medicine men that I've talked to, I've told me that even back to the 1860s or no, I'm sorry, the 1600s. when Navajo's first got horses from the Spanish that came through, they were using horses to get around, and they talk about using horsehair lariots. And in the probably early 1800s or even maybe late 1700s,

there's stories about Navajo's encountering Bigfoot. And in one case, up in Coyote Canyon area north of Gallup, they surrounded one with horses and roped it with their horsehair lariates. And they said it once it was roped and strung up between all these horses, it sat down in the middle. And it started to speak Navajo to them. And the story goes that it says, I'm just trying to go through to Mesa Bertie. And if you take me up there, I promise I will not return. So they rode with it between them all the way up from New Mexico area into Colorado.

let it go up there. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like,

what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers.

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New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. Was it a Bigfoot or a giant? Well, they're saying a Bigfoot, but you have to understand that the naval language is a very precise and,

descriptive language. And so what they're talking about is something that's huge and hairy. That sounds crazy. So, you know, this is one of the first incidences that we have. So back to the Skinwalker thing. Let me describe to you because there's a lot of false information going on, TV being what it is and the internet being what it is. If you look at the internet, you'll see pictures of kachinas. You'll see pictures of Navajo Medicine Men or dancers wearing Yebache outfits. These are depictions of various gods that the people have. And to put the moniker Skinwalker over them just because they look weird is kind of like saying, well, the Pope wearing his vestments is an evil satanic being. You know, so very disrespectful.

And I've had my say with some of the, some of the TV shows about that. The Skinwalker is somebody who has gained the knowledge of shape shifting or shape changing. This shifting is done through a series of chance and ceremony. We don't know what that is that they're doing, but apparently it works. now the skin walkers are real people they are not an avatar they're not somebody in a cave that's directing this thing they can be killed i've actually had an uncle that killed one wow and he went to town and decided to go to the bar and bragged everybody while he was drunk that i killed a skinwalker next thing i know he

He's chasing his girls around with an axe trying to cut their heads off. And he got put in a home. Oh. You know. And within a year, he was dead. So they think that after bragging, you know, somebody heard about it and, you know, and they came and got their revenge. But he had shot one that was trying to get in.

He said it was a coyote trying to get into the sheep pen, shot it in the flank. And it ran off. And several days later, an old man up on the mountain that had long been suspected of this died of a bullet wound in the side. Wow. These things use incantations and spells. All they need to change is the DNA of something. If they want to change into a coyote, they have the hide of the coyote. They carried it their backpack. They can use other animals. They can change into owls and to ravens into whatever kind of animal that they have the fur or the feathers. I've actually heard of one case where a woman was going down the road and she saw what she describes as a half man on top, half kangaroo on the bottom.

It shook her up. She kept driving and then she said she went to the local market later on that week. She saw the same man behind the counter. Was he buying hugs? Was that what he's carrying around? Yeah. Yeah, you would think so. That's wild.

That's wild. This is like what we hear on our show with Greek mythology. Did they have the same cantation ability and then it's just rebranded? I only speak to Navajo Skinwalkers because that's where my experience lies. So I have empirical experience. Sure, sure. It is a worldwide phenomenon. We've been told that they have cases in Africa.

in Europe, in Australia, pretty much everywhere there's man, you have cases of lachanthropy or shape shifting. In the United States, we have up in the northeast, you have stories of the windigo, you have the rake. We understand that the Apache tribes in southern Arizona have their version of a shapeshifter. So, you know, there's a lot of different tribes that this thing, you know, goes along the same route. So there's always a human being behind the shapeshifting. Yes, yes. Now, in the case of Navajo shapeshifters, you don't just put in an application and say,

I want to learn how to do this. Yeah, right. There's two ways that you could be contacted. One is direct contact through a bunch of shapeshifters already that may approach you, and they'll give you a choice, either die or pick somebody in your family that you care very dearly about to be sacrificed. And this is the only way you can gain that power. The other way is to come upon one of their meetings of Sabbath, so to speak, and notice it or see it and be captured and be told you can become one of us or you can die. Wow. So it's crazy. It's a human sacrifice involved.

in this ritual. Yes, yes. That sounds about as dark as it gets. Do you investigate these things on, like on the reservation? And did you have any bizarre? I mean, I've imagined they're all bizarre experiences, but do you have any note, like any interesting stories about it, about an investigation?

Yeah, we've, my grandfather was a Christian reform minister. But as part of his testimony, he said that he was, trained from a very early age, probably around eight years old, to be a Navajo medicine man. And he told me in talks that I've had with him, when you learn this stuff, you learn everything. You're not, the way he put it, he says that as a medicine man, you have to have knowledge of how the curses are developed so that you can counteract them. We've seen cases where people have been, the Skinwalker will carry a piece, usually a piece of human bone, like a piece of the radius that's hollowed out. And they will pack it with something that's called corpse powder.

This is made from the corpses of dead people along with other various poisons. And they'll take this or even a reed and have it preloaded and blow it at you. We actually had a guy come out with a film crew one time. And we're sitting around a fire that we had built outside. 25 feet away was a Hogan. And as we're sitting there with the cameraman and the producer and me and Stan, a coyote walked between the Hogan and us. And me and Stan looked at, everybody looked at it.

It just turned, stopped and looked, and then trotted on over and down the rise. me and Stan jumped up and we went running to see if we could see which way it went. And when we got there just a couple of seconds after it was gone. Shortly after that, the producer got sick. The doctors could not determine what was wrong with him. He stayed sick for a year and some months and almost died. Dang. And slowly, you know, made his way back.

I've got another guy that we did investigation on that also was he came out and hit a dog. That's Haas' lore. And Haas wrote a book about this. And he talks about going out in his yard and hitting this dog with a two by four. And he says when he hit it, all his dust came up. The dog was mangy looking and had hair falling off and everything else. So he hit the dog, killed it. He says the dog fell over and urine came out.

And so he goes in and tells his wife, Haas is Anglo. And his wife is Navajo. So the wife says, show me, you know, which is typical, you know, yeah, I don't believe you, you know, prove it to me. And he goes out there and the dog is gone. So later on, he became sick. He says he was literally vomiting out one side and crapping out the other, laying in a pool of sweat. And his wife and a neighbor got him and carried him to the truck and drove almost 100 miles to see a medicine man. And the medicine man told them, he says, it's a good thing.

If you had waited another couple of hours, he would have been dead and started doing a ceremony with him. And he came back. He was cured pretty, it was miraculous, the cure that they gave him. And so he talks about, you know, the effects of that kind of powder. And the doctors, again, couldn't find what was wrong with him. So you see a lot of cases like this. And the Skinwalker can also appear as people. They can get your DNA change into your shape and approach people that you know.

As you. And as you. Wow. So Navajo children from a very early age are taught you don't leave fingernail clippings around. You when you're done brushing your hair, take the hair out of your brush and burn it. You don't leave your urine or your feces laying out in the open. You cover it up. You don't leave sweaty clothes outside, take them in and put them away, that kind of stuff.

And this is taught. traditionally. And when you think about it, yeah, it all has to do with DNA. Yeah. I mean, that's like half the, that's half the show. I mean, basically we talk about that since the beginning of this. But the more we, we kind of barrel on, John, we're trying to figure out, because a lot of people of faith, they just slap demons. This is just demons on everything. But it sounds like these creatures have a category, you know? It's more complicated. Like Skinwalkers is a completely, it's like sounds like you have to have some sort of, say, ritual in order to pull that one off.

But Bigfoot doesn't sound like a skimmy. It's a completely different creature. And for most spiritual Christians is our main audience. You know, they just have this very narrow view of what's going on. If it's strange, they just say, it's demons. But it sounds like demons are a specific creature, too. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on all that, because you've been doing this for so long. you have to have cataloged sort of a list of what these creatures are and

and where they are on on the list and but i mean plus you've also said you've investigated hauntings which which a lot of people to nate's point will automatically slap that with with it being demonic and maybe it is i don't know but i know that that's also very bizarre phenomena that it doesn't fit the same classifications Nate would say as as the skin watcher it seems like it's shamanic is a shamanic ceremonial ritual thing that you spell essentially that turns you into a shape shifter and then like bigfoot's different than that and the UFO thing but yeah like I don't hope I didn't say I hope I didn't take that one up for rails Nate but that's yeah I'm curious because you did talk about hauntings well one of one of the

things that we do in a matter of course is that we do not ascribe any names to any of this even Bruce Lee one time said to look at a situation and name it naming it making it a word causes fear So we don't try to have a preconceived idea. We will go in and we will investigate something. All kinds of weird things happen. And we just go on just like, oh, yeah, that's normal. You know, one thing we found about hauntings is if you show fear, you give it energy. And it'll manifest even more.

So we just, you know, look at it and go, oh, yeah, it's trying to get our attention. biggie. So that's one of the things how we approach this. And then we try to be as analytical as we can. We're always looking for how did this happen? Why, you know, what are the background behind it? When we finish these cases, a lot of times we'll take a deep breath and, you know, go, whoa, you know, did we just happen? Did we experience that? And then we'll sit down and try to write up our reports as objectively as we can and, you know, move on onto the next case or on to whatever our next job is. So there is this idea of good and evil. These things have coexisted for millennia. In Navajo, you have something called Hojo, which is this sense of balance that every person

should have in their life. In order to function. properly, you have to have a balance. So if you have nothing but good, you're not in balance. If you have nothing but evil, you're still not in balance. If you're somewhere in between trying to balance the two out, it's almost like both are necessary. There's some kind of point to it, although we don't have the background or thinking to be able to decipher that. If you read the Psalms, you get that vibe. You know, David's constantly dealing with walking through the valley of the shadow of death and trying not to have fear right and the bible's constantly trying to put that out in people's minds do not fear have no fear and you hear about

god creating the heavens and the earth and you hear that there's angels and you find out there's a hierarchy of angels many different types of angels and then we have angels that we have angels that rebelled and get cast down to earth. Interestingly enough, our depiction of Satan with this red guy wearing a red suit with a tail and carrying a pitchfork

with a couple of little horns, you know, usually cartoonish, is not the depiction of Satan. Satan would rival any other angel for his beauty and his brilliance. And scripture even says, you know, be careful

about these false apostles because they'll come to you as an angel of light. So, you know, you have to, you have to be judgmental. You have to, you can't just take it and say, okay, I'll just believe it. And here comes this shiny being and says, go kill all these people and you're going to go out and do it. There has to be some thought process behind it. And that's what we don't see. So we, we don't look at that belief system as and and when I say that, I'm not saying that I'm a sectic or agnostic or whatever in studying scriptures. The crucifixion is something that takes place in time space dimension history. It's the cross was real. The Roman soldier shoved a spear in the side of Christ. And he says water.

and blood poured out. When you see water and blood separate in my EMT training, they told us that that's a sure sign of death. He's encased in, you know, about 100 pounds of linen and aramek spices ground up into a gummy consistency and wrapped up in this stuff. And, you know, so how is he going to move in that? And, you know, the apostles come in and see that the two men, is empty and see the grave clothes lying on the slab. He comes out and he takes a boulder. The angel

takes a boulder and there's three different Greek passages that describe it on a colittle, hieroclittle and apoclittle. What they're saying is that this two and a half of three ton boulder was literally picked up off the ground and threw up a hill. And the Roman guardian, in it, which was a 16 man attachment in the first century AD, fell as dead men. They fainted. And these were guys that were, you know, form would guard, and the other ones would lay with their heads in toward the center. Yeah.

And they were trained to protect six square meters of ground apiece against an invading army. There was a Roman seal put on the tomb, leather straps with clay packs. And if you broke the seal, it was automatically. crucifixion upside down. So, you know, and the whole Roman government would come after you. This is why you see the Roman Guard unit running to the priest and saying protect us. But after that, you don't hear anything about them anymore. So I look at that as evidence. And same with the conversion of Sol of Tarsus into the Apostle Paul. You can't historically

disapprove that it didn't happen and you have a guy that gets his head chopped off at the end for his faith. So there is definitely something to all this. Oh yeah. I was going to say, John, like what you were bringing up a little minute ago was just this idea of like testing the spirits almost, you know, if Satan is appearing to people as an angel of light, you know, we have to know who our savior is and we have to ask these entities because like you said, the beginning of the The episode from the very beginning was, you know, I don't look at this like a belief. I know, I had, there's evidence that these creatures are real that this stuff goes on. And after doing this show for a couple years, I'm in the same camp.

Like, I know Bigfoot's out there. I don't, I don't even waste my time trying to debate it anymore. It just feels like, what is it? And how is it? What's it doing? And that's my thought process. But I think we're getting to these times, John, when we're going to have to ask these spirits, because I feel like it's just the veil is thinning,

weirder stuff is happening. And if people listening to shows like this don't understand that you have to ask these things if something presents itself to you, who's your father? Where do you come from? Who are you loyal to? You know? Yeah, that's right. You have to be grounded.

And if you're not grounded, what we've seen in my work is adventure seekers. Yeah. They like that adrenaline. And you get to be what they call. and adrenaline junkie, which is you have to have that high. Now, the opposite of having that adrenaline high is depression because it goes in a sine wave. So it never, you know, you have all this adrenaline. It never actually comes back to the middle for equal. Every action, there's an equal and opposite reactions. So you get a high, it goes to depression. And then you have to get that high

again to feel normal. And you keep doing that. You have to have more and more highs. And pretty soon, you're taking more and more risks and then people die. It's a lot of diminution returns, right? It's less and less. Yeah. So, you know, we've actually said that if people are going to pair jump, you know,

land-based jump off of some of these canyons that we have, they should be posting a bond that, you know, for the cleanup, so to speak. We've had paragliders that have smacked into the ground and hang gliders that have gotten killed because they want this excitement. And we're the ones that have to go in and find them and pick up the remains and put them in a body bag. So, you know. John, I like what you said there. I want to go back real quick.

it like I mean being an investigator and laying out the case for Christ you know 500 people or more had an encounter with a risen Christ like you have I just like the way you looked at that like the it's just like your line of work we talk about the things that you've experienced which which far exceed like the normal into the paranormal space you realize that there's there needs to be metrics and in things to sort of measure and evaluate this by in order to to quantify it right I like what you're saying with with the grace for Christ because I think I think people forget that yes there's these things that happened, that we know happened, that we can lay out a case for, including the fact that the risen Christ appeared to all of the apostles and at one point a group of 500

people or more. And we have these accounts that, that are measurable. And I love that. And I love that that's what we bring this work too, because we operate in this space of all this unknown unexplained. And there's not always a lot of hard answers, but there's a lot of experiences. And so I'm going to talk to someone like you that had to investigate from a, you know, from a process-driven job, really, you have the procedural things to do when you investigate. I think it's fascinating.

And, you know, I know one of the things that you talked about, too, when we were doing this is you had a lot of other crazy experiences. We talked a bit about UFOs. And when we talked from the top, you'd said that you'd seen cigar shapes and disc triangles and orbs. And, you know, one of the things I wanted to get to before we let you go, of course, was that just talk a little about the UFO experiences. because I think these things all in a crazy way are connected. I'd love to pick your brain on that. We talked about Bigfoot and UFOs being connected. We talked about Skinwalker Ranch and the idea of these,

even just portals, the idea of things come through. And we think maybe we can hypothesize that Bigfoot one way or another goes through or through a dimensional portal or dimensional hole, whatever you want to call it. But you had a lot of experiences on the reservation where you were called in for UFO sightings in these. and I wanted it before, yeah, before we got too far in, I wanted to make sure I asked you about a few of those things because we cover that phenomenon.

We've talked to a lot, Nate, a lot on this show about what are they? And we're at a time now where the government is admitting this. Like the government of all things, the organization that seemed to have wanted to cover this up since the Rosvo incident, since the scene started getting out from underneath the cap is now saying, oh yeah, UAPs, which is going to name it something different,

but yeah, they exist and we don't know what they are, and everything else is redacted. and classified, right? But you had, you had real investigations on the reservation where and experiences with UFOs, right? Yeah, we, our first case, actually, we classified as the old man case. And in the old man case, this gentleman who was in his mid-80s, had worked all his life off the reservation and retired and came back. He's at home, his wife and his daughter or had gone in Phoenix. And he's living out in the middle of nowhere,

sees what looks like lights coming to his house. He doesn't have electricity. He doesn't have running water. You know, just the normal situation for Majority Navos. And so he looks out the front window and says, I wonder who's coming. And what he sees is this big light flying over. And he's watching this thing and it circles his house.

And as he watches it, it goes up on the hill behind him, maybe about a quarter mile away. And a light's there. He said he doesn't know if it landed or if it's just hovering. But several things come out at the bottom. And it looks like they're all riding on something is his description. And they go down the hill to another house, which is a bit. about a half mile from his place. It's a relative. And then it goes back up up the hill, just glides up the hill again. And this is an area with Pinyon Juniper and a lot of brush.

So then it comes down toward his place. And he's got a small blue healer pup, one of these crazy little puppies that's all gray, got the black spots all over it. When we first met it, it was trying to jump all over us and lick us to death. And it's, starts barking and runs off toward where these things are coming down. And he hears the dog yell yipe, you know, and he says it comes running back and lays down by the front doorstep, curls into a ball and doesn't move. So he starts feeling uneasy. He goes back inside. He says, next thing he knows out in the back of his house, he sees what he calls for. And in Navajo, there's no word for alien. So he's referring to them as four children that are walking around. Each one is

carrying something in his hand. He calls it a flashlight. And there's a collimated beam about an inch in diameter. And one's blue, green, yellow, and red. And they're shining these things around like they're looking for something on the ground. And they got very interested. And he's got a bunch of solar lights outside of his house. And they got very interested in these solar lights. And they would gather around one and, you know, kind of lean in to look at it. They were just fascinated by this thing. And he says the light would dim and go out. And then they'd all stand back and take a step back and the light would slowly come back on. And they'd lean in again. You know, he says they did this several times. So by this time, he says that these kids have big heads, they have big black eyes,

very skinny, and they're either wearing a metallic or white color suit that's pretty skin tight. And he gets upset. And he says, what are these kids doing around my house at one o'clock in the morning. And so he gets, he gets a dry cell flashlight, those old square ones, and goes out the front door and walks around the side of the house to go confront them. As he turns to the corner into the back of the house, he tripped over the steps going out the back and fell down. He says, as he raised his head up and looked up, he says, these things were in line like they're sitting on something and going back up the hill and gliding without making a sound. It's wild.

I mean, pinion brush, you don't glide up that hill. I mean, if you're not familiar with that, it's, it's, it's, it's, our, to our listeners, that's not, that's something you can easily transverse or, or climb or glide. That's right. As John is saying, it's, uh, quite the opposite if you're trying to get up that hill. It's weird, John, because we just did an episode on the black eyed children and this has, sounds very similar to that. Sounds a little like grace, too.

I mean, you know, they kind of go. back and forth. So they get they get back into this craft and and take off. Afterwards, you know, we go out through the investigation. The dog comes out as he's jumping all over us. We had a team of environmental people there with docemitors to get background radiation readings. And we wanted to find if that this craft actually landed and if there was a difference in radiation between the surrounding area and where it landed or where it hovered. We couldn't find that location. However, they were dressing up in white Tyvec suits.

One of the girls in the crew was a dog lover, and she's over there yelling at this dog, come here, come here. And we couldn't get this dog off of us. You know, it was just trying to lick us so much and had muddy paws. And, of course, if you're in a uniform, you don't want mud all over you. He saw the white suit and ran to the front of the house and curled up in a little ball next to the front door.

So we noted that. We found unusual markings. Kind of like if you took a coffee can and just pushed it into the ground, one after the next and a line. We found markings like that with no footprints or anything else around it. There was another dog that was there that was a pit bull that had just had pups. And this dog was on a big chain, and it was literally trying to rip the chain out of the ground to get at us and tear us up.

The old man told us that on that night, this dog went in the doghouse and refused to come out and never made a sound. Wow. Fear. So at the end of it, the neighbors said that they had about six or seven small pups that were, you know, these little fuzzy, rolling, pulley puppies that are just little balls of fur that, you know, as they get out and start to walk, they're just tripping all over themselves and falling down and rolling around. They said that all seven of these pups disappeared that same night. Wow. So, you know, now we have the ominous music because there are obviously something nefarious was going on. Usually with predators, they'll leave hair, they'll leave, you know, blood.

We checked the whole area and they were just gone. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing we hear all the time is it doesn't sound like an animal. It's the culprit, you know, especially at the missing 411 stuff. there's no evidence half the time. Yeah. And if they do find anything, they find it after the fact in a place they've already searched and it doesn't make any sense. And it's just this strange series of events that go along with a lot of these paranormal,

everything from Bigfoot to UFOs. Is there things that you're not allowed to talk about? I'm curious, you know, all those years. And obviously, you know, you're not, if you haven't talked about it. I don't even were going to tell us about it. It's not you're going to tell us. But, I mean, is there a lot of stuff that just, it's just too. strange, it's too off the books that you're not legally allowed to talk about?

Well, one of the things that we never talk about is who the people are that had these encounters. And that's one of the things that we did out of respect that we guarantee people's anonymity. And that's why they come to us and want to talk to us. So that's a big, big number one. There are things that have happened to us that we don't talk about personal things. Some of these things have followed us home. In Stan's case, he had a haunting case where over two nights and three days, coins were what they call a porting, falling to the floor. They were hitting the walls. They were hitting people in the back.

64, 65 coins over three days that appeared. They come out of nowhere? And they were just disappeared out of nowhere in a building, in a locked, building with the investigators. Each one was mapped out as to where it was in the room where it fell. It was photographed for evidence and it was collected out of the 65 coins. They hit the walls. They bounce.

They rolled. They spun. And out of 65 coins, they all ended up heads up, which is a statistical impossibility. Yeah. It's a statistically impossible. Yeah. And this. same phenomenon, the support, followed Stan home. And in one case, one of the investigators was

standing in the doorway of his house and a whole handful of coins fell over his head. And Stan says he was looking at him at the time and he saw the coins materialize in the air and fall down. Wow. What's your conclusion with that? What do you think that is? I mean, that's the thing. There's so many these strange stories that don't even sound made up. In a simplistic way, it could simply be something that's saying heads up. I'm here. Hey, yeah. 65 times.

Like, here I am. One of the things that happened to Stan was that he was over at his brother's place, and they have one of these hanging baskets that have fruit in them, these wire baskets that have three baskets. and there was one that had grapefruits in it. And he says as they were standing in the kitchen, a knife flew out of the knife block and stabbed into one of the grapefruits. And it flew right between them.

Oh my gosh. And the only thing Stan could think about is everybody was freaked out. And he says, if it wanted to hurt us, it would have. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of these stories survive because the people, survive and it just makes you scratch your head because they sound so strange they don't make any sense here's an interesting aside to that whole case this was a business office and they had had problems

like this for years greens occurring things moving things you know all kinds of stuff happening and they contacted medicine men who would come in and do a a ceremony on the on the place and they said it would last for about three to four months and so when this happened happened and standed the investigation. He was in Gallup and approached a Baptist minister that was doing a tent meeting there. And he spoke to the minister about it and says, you know, is, is there anything that you know that we can do? And the minister told him, he says, yeah, he says, number one, take all the coins you have and throw them in a fire that you made and burn them. So that's what Stan did. He collected them out of the ashes later on and we have them today. The other thing he told him was that he knew how to do,

what do they call that? What an exorcism? Yeah. He says, I've been trained to do an exorcism and I'll go building and do that. So that's what he did. The paranormal incidences stopped for about eight to nine months and slowly started to return, but they're not at the same level that they used to be is what we understand because we keep track of all the people that we've done big major investigations for. And so we contacted them again and they said it's down. In the case of burning the coins, one of the people at Stan's brother's house was sitting on a couch and he says, well, if they're going to throw coins, these were pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters. He said, they're going to throw coins. You ought to tell them to throw bills. And he knows,

longer that no longer came out of his mouth and a watered up bill flew through the air and hit somebody in the face no way that's and when they opened it was a one dollar bill when they opened it up it had the word die die die and the e was in the shape of a pitchfork what so definitely sounds demonic like i mean that's yeah yeah so when they burned everything that was last item that they threw in the fire. Of course, it was consumed. But Stan says that when they threw it in the fire, he says it was like if you took a couple of M80 firecrackers and threw them in the fire and they exploded. He says ashes and coals and everything went all over the place and burn the bottom of their pants and everything else. So he says that was rather interesting outcome for that for that bill.

Dang, John, you have such a long career and you've seen so many things. What's the story that you, that sort of you can't get out of your head or rattles you the most of all the things you've experienced? Well, I get asked, what's the most unusual thing that's ever happened to you? I've actually stood outside and videotaped UFOs flying around our community here, but that isn't at the top. Most unusual incident I've had that I have no explanation for is every month, because I was averaging 5,000 miles a month, I would take my vehicle in to get serviced. And I had to go to Tuba City from where Tuba City is. I've been there. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where the fleet management is. So loop is way down 50 miles outside Flagstaff. So I would leave before daybreak. It's 45 miles

to Kikazumabe because you're driving so far, so many miles, you put your vehicle on cruise. And it's understood that if you're driving through the Hopi Reservation, they are not a respecter of persons. If you're in a police vehicle and you're speeding, they will stop you to find out why and probably write you a citation. So I'm towing the line. I'm doing 65 all the way up there and all the way across. So it's another 69 miles to Tubah City, so 47, 69. And you're doing the speed limit the entire time. I've got this down so that I can leave the house at a certain time, get on the road.

By the time I'm on 264, which is going through Hopi, the sun's just coming up. I'll get to Tuva City just a little bit before 8 o'clock. I have time to go through a drive-through restaurant and get a breakfast sandwich. in a coffee and drive around and go sit at the gate to the fleet and my vehicle gets serviced first. So this is my normal routine. On this particular day, I'm driving through an area called Denebato Dam. And as I was driving through, I passed the dam. I'm going down the road. The sun is just, it's what they call the false dawn where you're seeing light on the horizon, but the sun isn't up yet.

I looked in my, toward the front, and I see miles and miles of straight highway. I look in my rear view mirror, and I see miles and miles of straight highway behind me. And I blinked. And all I can do is describe it as almost a physical slow motion blink, where your eyes closed and they open up immediately. And I'm suddenly coming to a sharp right hand turn. That right-hand turn is just before you get to coal mine Mesa, which is another 15 miles up that road from where I close my eyes. Now, initially, I thought, oh, I must have just zoned out and gone on autopilot.

So I must have been sleep driving. But to get those 15 miles, you're going up and downhills. You're going around curves. And there's no way you can navigate all that with your eyes closed. So I go on and I'm just perplexed and can't get it out of my mind. I get into Tuba City. I go through the drive-thru. I'm the only one there, so I get right through.

Go park at the fleet management. And instead of being 10 minutes early, I'm 45 minutes early. Wow. And so I don't know how I gained 30 minutes of time. It's not physically possible even if I was going over 100 miles an hour, which my truck wouldn't do. I've had people when I talk about it say, oh, you were abducted and you were put down in the wrong time frame again.

I've had people tell me that I went through the microscopic event horizon of a black hole, which I find pretty hard to believe. I have no idea. I don't know. I really don't. What's your best guess? Do you think of like a little wormhole or a portal? he's kind of

pop through? I'm thinking, I'm thinking portal you know, but it's just strange. Are we driving a DeLorean that day

or was it the regular police? No, I think I was in a 2000 2001 Chevy pickup with a bed cover

on the back. That's no, no flux capacitor in that thing. Yeah, right? It's strange. Yeah.

The weirdest thing about that encounter is It doesn't sound like it was a straight shot. If you're driving on a freeway, you go through a portal, and then all of a sudden you come out of it, and you're still going where you went. It sounds like you went through something,

and then, you know, go through like a rat maze and you come out the other side. It doesn't, you know, your idea of a portal is just like from one side or the other. That is so strange. That's crazy. You time traveled as well, because you can get there 30.

Yeah. Yeah, that's... I gained 30 minutes. That's well. One of the things that me and Stan have speculated on for many years all the way back, we started coming out with this in 2010, was that the only thing that ties everything together is this idea of dimensions and portals and gates. We are of the opinion that it accounts for ghost sightings, that these things are just popping in and out. We have this idea that a dimension is like a solid wall from here to. to another place is very possible that it could be like a cloud where the two are intermingling

intermingling all the time. And that chance encounters of this type, such as the 411 missing cases, could be that you just happen to hit an entrance by accident. But some of these are more controlled and like UFOs that are just popping into existence with a loud pop and then fading out as they go along. In the case of hauntings, these could be just stretching over from other portals. And this idea of portals and dimensions is also carried out with the CERN large Hadron Collider. One of their experiments was to open a dimensional gate and send a message through to the other side, which is kind of crazy because in military terms, they say never draw fire on your own position. Right.

So, you know, here we are waving a flag and say, hey, here we are. Come get us. So it just gets, yeah, it just gets weirder, John. The more and more we do this show and the more stories we hear, it just gets stranger. And we think that these dimensions are key through frequencies. And you're seeing this in the Skinwalker Ranch episodes with the 1.6 gigahertz. I've actually interviewed Skinwalkers that have come out of it. And they've described to me ceremonies where you're seeing,

singing and humming kind of like a chant. And there's a certain frequency that you're trying to hit in order to affect these changes. And once the change occurs, you literally become this animal. But they said that the visual spectrum shifts to a red shift, which means that you can run incredibly fast. And it gets blurry. So your acumen for vision is not there, which I find real interesting. It's super crazy.

It does get blurry. That's awesome. Do you think that skin walkers are aware when they turn into an animal or do they kind of have an out-of-body experience and they don't know what's going on and then they come back? It's my conclusion that they are aware. They know what they're doing. They know where they're going. And there's a lot of stories about them that we've had one of the ones that we feel is an important incident that happened as a family came to us. and they said we had a run-in with one of these things.

And we were coming home from me and, you know, the husband and the woman were coming home from town. And as they drove in, they saw what they said was the coyote that was trying to get into the sheep. And so the guy grabs the 22 out of the back of the truck behind the seat and shoots it and hits it in the side. he says the coyote went down and was dragging its rear legs and it crawled into some tumbleweeds but its hind legs were still sticking out so he goes over there and he grabs it by the hind leg got the leg in his left hand he's got the rifle in the other hand and he starts pulling it out so he could finish it off and he says as he's walking with it this thing turned into a human leg in his hand. And he looked down and he saw a skinny Navajo man that was painted white, almost like you

took a sponge with white paint and just dabbed it all over your body. And he says it was dry and it was cracking everywhere. And his hair was painted the same color. He, all he had on was a loin cloth in a bag. And he dropped him immediately. And, you know, he's saying, what shall we do? What shall we do? you know and the wife is saying should we shoot it should we call an ambulance you know so they ended up calling the police the police literally told them we don't want anything to do with this when they came out so they called the ambulance the ambulance showed up and the the attendance or navajo and they said uh you know but they loaded it up on the journey and strapped it in and drove it into the town uh into the town the east

our staff that was Navajo was all chased out of the room. And the Anglo doctors saved this person. Wow. And so the family's question was, what do we do now? It knows who we are. It knows we shot it. It's going to come back for revenge. And then so we were talking to them for a while. And the wife happened and it's a say, oh, and by the way, we noticed who it was. It was a community member that we that we know. And so we say, oh, well, that changes everything, you know, according to Navajo custom, if you know who it is and you go to their door and knock on it and tell them, confront them, within three days, that person would die. Wow. And we've actually seen this happen in the past where people who were discovered to be shapeshifters were somehow confronted either by family members or by other people. people and suddenly they passed away. Wow. You get named.

Three days. And you're three days. John, what do you say to skeptical people? I'm one of my last questions for you. You know, a lot of people just write off. These are Native American stories. Native Americans think a certain way. And there's no credibility to them.

You know, obviously people remove from the culture, removed from the res. Most people live in cities and they think the world operates exactly like they're told. and they hear stuff like this and they just scratch their head and they're like, well, you know, they just have their simple answers. I mean, what do you, I'm sure you get a lot of skeptical people over the years, or maybe you avoid them, you know, but. Well, Navajos have what they call a verbal tradition. These information is handed down generation to generation through medicine men and through people, elders within the tribe. When you talk about Navajo knowledge, the songs that are taught. Navajo men for ceremonies, say enemy way ceremony, which is three nights. There's over 240 songs

that are sung over three nights. Each one has to be sung exactly. Because if you mess one up or put it in the wrong order or mess up the words, the whole ceremony is negated. So because of this oral tradition, things are repeated accurately. Navajo language is incredibly precise language. It lacks the nuance that English has where you can make a double on tondry with a word and has several different meanings. Navajo isn't like that. So you have this oral tradition. In the case of this old man case, he was approached over four years, three different interviews. and we compared the interviews side by side. He never added to them and embellished them.

He never took away from any of them. He said them exactly the same as it happened to him. So that lends a lot of credibility. The other thing that we're told is that Indians or Native Americans or savages. The definition of savage in the Anglo context is somebody who does not have a written language, period. So we had an oral language, and that was precise. But it doesn't qualify because, you know, we were not the winners. And so they took us off the reservations to teach us in boarding schools and beat the Indian out of the native because there was a Christian just waiting to come out.

So Indians were punished for speaking their language. They were punished for having long hair, which was their tradition. And they were molded to be, this was the idea of assimilation that native tribes would cease to exist and the government thereafter could take over the lands. That didn't happen. The United States is not a melting pot. The United States is a stew pot where you have groups of Italians and you have groups of Armenians and you have groups of Germans all living together groups of French people and different. tribes that are still corporal, you know, that they're still together. So that didn't work. And we're still here. We're still survived.

I've got, I've got one last question too. Why in why do you surmise that there seems to be so much activity on on reservations, particularly? Because we hear about these kind of things like, you know, whether it be UFO or in this case, like the Skinwalker phenomena or there seems to be a lot of activity centered around reservations. And from someone who worked for 30 years as a Navajo Ranger, I would love just to your thoughts on maybe why, I know things happen everywhere. I'm not saying that's the only place that happens. That's not my intent at all.

It seems there be some concentration of things oftentimes on reservation land. Well, the Navajos, along with Hopes and a lot of other Indian tribes across the United States and First Nations up in Canada, have this history that says, that the gods came to them early on. It imparted knowledge. And so they designed kachinas to look like these gods. They designed Yeba Ches to look like these gods and perform ceremonies to remember them. So there's more of an open thought process when it comes to this. We've asked people on Navajo, why don't you report these to move on? Because they're the clearinghouse for all this information. And they tell us if we notify people, they will come up here. They'll all hold hands

in kumbaya, scan in a circle, and these things will not come back to us. So we're chasing the God's way. The other thing that I found out is that when you live up here, there's not much electricity. Just the major cities and towns have them and some rural electrification product. So we have a full view of the starscape up there. things are more noticeable. If you go into the city, you have light pollution. You know, unfortunately, Los Angeles, Sacramento, you go outside, you might see one or two, you know, stars and everything else is just grayed out. So you don't have the same vision that they do out here. I think things are happening all the time. We're just not aware of them or we choose to willfully ignore them.

Whereas with Navajos, there's always some other reason. that they're happening and you need to find out what that reason is and protect yourself if you need protecting that's awesome that's good that's a good word i mean i you think yeah like i mean i this is crazy but like i have a neighbor who said that his neighbor this is my neighborhood his neighbor across the street seen these two cigar-shaped UFOs above our neighborhood skyline during the day and it's crazy because i don't think to look up i mean i don't live in this outside the city but not in the city but we still have the building we still have the light pollution here and i think they make a good point that like people aren't looking and then the things that we do and with electricity especially

in the lights they seems to cloud out some of the phenomena that maybe we would see if we were looking for it right or just looking in general that's it's interesting yeah i mean you have to be kind of trained to see some of these things you know you have to be made aware of it and from people who listen to our show it seems like they have some experience their grandma had or their mom had or if you don't grow up with people talking about these stories that the world is the world is spiritual whether you whether you would accept it or not if you don't hear those things at a young age it gets harder and harder as you get older to see it but obviously it sounds like you know at a young age on the res you you're hearing stories like you were saying you know older people are are treated with respect and

they're they're sharing their stories and their encounters in the world the cosmology everything is different and you quickly learn the world is not how you think it is it's definitely not how we're told either the world is much more interesting than we give it credit yeah yeah agree it's funny because like people people who hate our show who don't like our show say that the world isn't as crazy as we make it sound on the podcast but it's it's funny it's like some people just they need jerk to all this, the blurry things out there in the shadows. And it's cool that you've had all these experiences, all these years. Thanks for coming on our show.

Yeah, thank you, John. Yeah. And dropping story after story to make a little bit more sense of what we've heard in previous episodes. We've touched a lot of these subjects, but everyone, you know, brings a little bit more of their, their own flavor to the stories we've heard before. And it just kind of, you know, I think the more you listen to our catalog, the more you start to go, okay, I make it a little bit more sense of things. How could people, listeners, follow your work, get involved with you? Do you have a YouTube channel or a podcast or, yeah, if you look at, if you Google Navajo Rangers, or if you look up on YouTube Navajo Rangers,

you'll see a lot of our talks that we've done, our conventions and stuff. And you'll get more stories that way. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks, John. Thanks for part two. Sorry about the first time around. Yeah, the first one went through a portal. We'll keep our fingers crossed. Yeah, right? I mean, hey, we'll have a, we'll know each other real well if this thing goes south here. But I think we did enough recording that we'll make it happen.

But thank you for, yeah, I think for your stories and your time, especially thinking for your time today. Sure thing. Thanks for having me. And if money, dollar bills start coming out of the walls and hitting you, Luke, you got to let me know. Send them my way. Right? I'm retired now, so I'm on the limit of income.

As long as they don't say anything nefarious, right? Right. Exactly. Podcasting, right? That's the only way you can make it. If all of a sudden money just starts popping out of the, out of the portals. Do a show like this, it might happen. You never know.

We're going to go back through those coins and see if there's any valuable, valuable ones in there from the past. Yeah. Awesome. So wild. So bizarre. Well, if you hear anything or anything crazy happens, John, you're always welcome on our show. Thanks for coming on. and I love it.

Sure thing. All right. Until next time.