Blurry Creatures - EP: 124 Serpent Mounds with Dr. Judd Burton & Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

The duo of all duos, Dr. Judd Burton & Doug Van Dorn return for an epic Part III in their series. These two titans of the Blurryverse are working together in real life on a published work of a previously undiscovered serpent mound in the Holy Land. What are serpent mounds and what is the history of these enigmatic structures? Why do they show up all over the world, across different cultures, and thousands of miles apart--and yet bear striking similarities? What is the purpose of these earthworks? Dr. Judd Burton and Doug Van Dorn take us on an unforgettable journey to the epicenter of serpent worship and into the biblical land of giants in Bashan. Guest: Doug Van Dorn http://douglasvandorn.com  Dr. Judd Burton http://burtonbeyond.com contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they got, What's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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Just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. It's right on the very back of the serpent. And when you look at the Silbury Hill, it's almost dead exact position for the location of the Bishan serpent mound and the wheel of the giant. So they actually make a picture that almost exactly overlays the other one. And there's another one in Canada, in Ontario.

Does the same thing. That one looks even more like the Israel serpent mound. And it's actually aligned identically to the summer solar. to sunrise and sunset, which is crazy. The Canada and Israel, how could that possibly be the case? Welcome to Blurry Creatures Podcast if you're just joining us for the first time. It's good to have you guys with us. We are a podcast that talks about creatures.

The blurry creatures out there that people still see to this day, where they come from in order to understand that. We have to understand the creatures of the past. And so we're going back today talking about the serpent mounds with Doug Van Dorn and Dr. Judd Burton, and we're going to get into it today. If you'd like to sponsor this show and keep the lights on here at blurry creatures,

you can do that at blurry creatures.com slash members. Become a member of the show like so many of you have done and really encourage us to keep going, and it's just been a blessing to me and my family that so many people care about this show enough to where I can spend a bulk of my time doing blurry creatures. So head over to blurrycreatures.com, maybe grab a shirt or become a member sponsor the show.

Let's get Dr. Jed Burton and Doug Van Dorn on the show. Thank you guys so much for listening to this podcast. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the phone chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event.

And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Well, gentlemen, we'll dive in representing the beautiful state of Colorado and the great state of Texas. In our left corner We've got Doug Van Dorn And in our right corner We got the Pride of the South We got Jed Burton

Dr. DJB We got DVD and DJB Son of Texas That's right And we've been doing this show Long enough That we've given you guys Your own acronyms

We don't have to tell our listeners They know you guys by heart They know who we're talking about Right Luke Yeah This are the guys right here Hell yeah We did do

Two parts of a series About demonology and you guys tease this with a three-parter. So as all 80s movies are, the best ones have the trilogy, right? First off, what was the best trilogy of the 80s? Terminator, but that's a little later.

Start in the 80s. Dude, back to the future, bro. Three is, I like three. No. Claire Barton. I mean, come on, man. No, that was the worst part. I like it. You know what?

I'm in the minority. The cheesiest part is when Marty's trying to get him on the train and he slips him in the hoverboard. Oh, that's right. And then he, like, floats off in the distance and the terrible green screen. And I was like, that just made it. Dude, Eastwood Reveen.

Don't even hate, man. It is. Dude, docks of blacksmith. You got Mad Dog Tannen. Frisbeys? I mean, it's... Well, gentlemen, it's good to have you guys back on blurry creatures. Yeah.

And you guys are writing a book, right? Well, a paper. A paper. A paper. Yeah, sorry. If we bind it in leather, it's a book. I mean, it's semantics, Chad. Yeah, I know.

Well, you know, since our first episode with you guys, you've become good friends, friends of the show, friends in real life, we text each other memes. That's what I love about blurry creatures is, you know, you never know who's listening and you never know how it'll change your life. And Doug's even gone on, he's been into Rogers Place now. That's right. The expedition. It's just for you guys.

I mean, I lived your life. I lived your dream. You really did. You did. We're living vicariously through you. At this point. I know. But round two, we're going to have to go.

We have to gang up on the old serpent mound in Minnesota. I have a feeling we're going to be talking about serpent mounds on this one, Luke. Yeah, that was my transition hint. Gotcha. There it is. But Texas and Colorado, you almost touch each other. It's getting weird. It's getting weird.

Oklahoma. A little sliver right between there. To touch each other long ago. A Piannail went all the way to Wyoming, if you can believe it. And they are touching once again. It wouldn't be a sausage party if a bunch of dudes weren't making borderline borderline jokes. It's like Christian camp all over again.

It is. It's like Mount Herman. The camp, the camp, Mount Herman, not the one that's pregnant with all kinds of meaning. Right, right. I have a funny story, a quick story about church camp, but I learned how to play poker at church camp one summer. We used our Coke tabs as chips. Did you shark them take them from?

See, interesting. No, well, you know, I mean, my parents are mortified when I got back. Right. They're out of gamble. That's how it works. There's lots of bad habits learned on the church bus on the way to camp. I don't know. Nate was sneaking out smoking cigarettes.

There was a documentary there somewhere, I'm sure. Exactly. Luke was making out in the back row with old. Susie Jenkins. Daughter of Leroy, yeah, absolutely. Daughter of Leroy. Well, welcome back, gentlemen. I don't know.

We're just... Bigfoot. What's that? Exactly. You know, I recently, I watched Les Stroud's, you know, Survivor Man. I watched this series on finding Bigfoot. It was really interesting. It's like a six-parter, right?

Five-parter, five-parter? He's got 10 or 12 episodes, I think. On Bigfoot now. It's interesting. Yeah, he goes out there with a bunch of those guys and they talk about Bigfoot. He's kind of in the middle. He seems to be open-minded. I like, yeah, I liked his approach. He was open-minded, but scrutinized, you know, everything. So I think his approach is probably a good one, one that's got some integrity. All I know is that everywhere I go in the mountains, Bigfoot stuff, everywhere.

Every store has Bigfoot in it. it's got to be because of the blurry creatures dude the brand is strong bigfoot brand yeah he was bigfoot was wise enough to get stuff he was not actually it's amazing

I had to buy a blue bigfoot bucket hat let's go I like it it's phenomenal Doug I'm impressed I mean there's like there's a lot of there's a lot of versatility there I mean you can go

you can golf you can be in the sun you go fishing the bucket hats are coming back I mean, not that I'm, you know, I'm not quite there yet, but... The Triple B. That's right. The bucket hack was back right after the hair, man. Right after that long hair, hockey hair.

Dude, get it in the back, man. Hey, you know, we don't need you talk about hockey because I know where you're at here. Avs in the cup. No, but you guys, we had talked about this episode for a while. And you guys had mentioned on, I believe I was the last episode, that you guys have hypothesized you discovered a serpent mound in, Bishan. If you listen to the show and you're familiar with the arc, Nate, like we've talked about Og of Bishan. And we, you know, and there's a lot of, there's, there's a lot to, you can glean from

that that that he was perhaps a giant or Raffaim, and we've talked about that. But you guys are working on a project about the discovery of, of what a purportly a serpent mound in Bichon. And I'm going to let you talk about it, because I'm just trying to do my best recall with dad brain right now. Yeah, I don't think we talked a whole lot about it. So we think we, At the end of our last show, we said, maybe this could be a whole episode. This was a long time ago. I was 12 years ago, maybe. Mike Heiser was in the middle of writing his unseen realm book, but he had released it in

the previous form for free for people that were on with the website. So I read through that and just completely devoured it. It's where really I started this whole journey myself. And I remember he made a statement in there that I had never heard before, that Bashan is related to the Eucharitic term that means serpent. So it's the place of the serpent. So one day I was there looking at the wheel of giants, which is pretty well-known feature just east of the Sea of Galilee,

out in the middle of the high desert there. I don't remember exactly why I was looking for different things. I mean, just because like if you see this incredible, you know, megalithic structures or anything else around. So just doing the Google Earth thing, looking all around Deshaun, found some interesting features that look pretty old. But then my mind, wherever we're, reason probably because I heard, you know, I knew that Bishon was the serpent, place of the serpent.

I just happened to look right above the wheel and I, my jaw just dropped to the floor. So I called up a friend who I talked to this stuff quite a bit about it. And I said, man, you got to go right now to Google Earth, drop whatever you're doing. All right. So he gets to Google Earth, pull up the wheel of the Giants, pulls up the wheel of giants. I said, man, just look right above. it and tell me what you see and it took him five seconds he goes it's a serpent mountain and i said i'm not crazy he said no so started doing a little bit of digging and remembered that i had come across this guy named judd burton from something that hyser had put out it was an archaeologist who had done some work up there and so i didn't know judd but um

he can tell a little bit more about this they were him and mike were thinking about doing a a school together on some of those weird stuff. That's why I remembered the name. And I think I had bought your book on vampires, Judd, the interview with the vampire prior to calling you. But I thought on a whim, oh, interview with the giant. Yeah, I'm thinking the movie, babies in my head. I was thinking, you know, just on a whim, maybe I would call this guy if I could get a hold of him. So I called you and I told you about it. And I don't know if you remember that conversation, but that's really how we met was over this topic.

Yeah, I do. I do remember that conversation. Nothing like a serpent mound to bring two people together, right? So do you think this serpent mound was discovered before just not be reported, or do you guys think you found something original? So in looking in the, you know, working on this paper, there's no question, but that the Israel archaeologist's authorities know about this place. they've done a lot of excavation work right around there.

In fact, on top of the mound, this is more Judd's expertise, but there's a couple of papers that have been written that have some good diagrams that show where all these burial mounds are at right around the vicinity of the wheel. So some of them are to the east and most of them are right north of it. And when you overlay it with the mound, you find that they're all laid directly on top of the mound. So there's a lot of reasons that I think, we'll get into for why that's the case, but they even called it some kind of a ridge and a name for it,

but there's no reason to believe that they thought that it was anything other than just a natural feature. It makes sense from an ideological perspective that you would put cumula there because the snake in world mythology has typically been a catholic deity and associated with the underworld and and death and rebirth and life. And that's kind of, those are some of the elements that we can tease out as we go along this evening. Because as Doug and I, I think will demonstrate and illustrate, those concepts are prevalent in the features taken together

that that is the serpent mound and the Gilgal Raffang. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document, you can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple.

I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill. And that's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number.

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and fees extra cement mobile for details what do you think it is about the serpent in general we see it on carved into like some of the megaliths in peru obviously they're building serpent mounds i mean for those listening you know for our listeners i mean genesis sort of the only knowledge most of us have of this serpent what do you think they're make why are they making these serpent mounds and what exactly, maybe a little history on the serpent itself would be good. Talk about that a little bit. The serpent has typically been a sort of catholic deity associated with Earth in the subterranean realms. But if you take a perusal through world mythology, one of the things that you also get really quickly

is that the serpents also associated with things like creation and destruction and also. of chaos, which is something we, Doug and I recently talked about with a couple of colleagues, Derek and Derek Gilbert and Brian Godawa on Iron and Myth. But I think in this case, if we turn this through the biblical worldview, I think the patient zero or the serpent zero, as it were here, is the Nakash from Genesis, who variously identified as the devil. That's really the beginning. beginning this kind of iconography, particularly if we're talking, now you're going to find it in all kinds of societies with all kinds of levels of sophistication. But any society, let's say that's a civilization that builds in a kind of monumental architecture, you're definitely going to run into this sort of imagery. And one of the things that Doug and I notice is that at the serpent mound in Bashan is that is that

that the serpent mound itself and the Gilgau-Rafin undoubtedly functioned together because the the serpent mound itself is sort of the serpent unbound and wriggling. And then Gilgal-Refahim, because of its proximity to the serpent mound, is almost a kind of a roberos or the snake eating its tail, which is a symbol for reproduction and life and and rebirth. And because it's a circle, it's also representative of celestial with the unfurled serpent being the terrestrial realm. So there are definitely several different layers here that we can look at and unpack as we go tonight. One of the things I wanted to add to this was interesting connection to the watchers in terms of what they look like. So I think most people heard about the

serpent and Eden. And we tend to think that that's an actual snake. Like there's a, there's a talking snake, but that's not probably what's going on. Instead, it's probably that this Nahash, this shining one, has some kind of a serpentine appearance. So here's a passage from the Dead Sea Scrolls in a little book called The Testament of Amram. And it says something pretty fascinating about the way that the watchers looked. So it says, I saw watchers in my vision, the dream vision, two men were fighting over me saying, and then there's a blank. because it's an old script and we don't have it was lost. Then it says, and holding a great contest over me, I asked them, who are you that you should thus empower over me? They answered, we have been empowered

to rule over all mankind. They said to me, which of us do you choose to rule you? I raised my eyes and looked. One of them was terrifying in his appearance like a serpent, his cloak many colored, yet very dark. And I looked again, and his appearance was a visage of a viper. And there's another one called the Book of Noah, where they're described as whiter than snow and redder than rose, and every hair is white, curly, and glorious. And then in a book called The Secrets of Enoch, they appeared very tall, such as I've never seen on the earth, and their faces shone like the sun, and their eyes were like burning lamps and fire came forth from their lips. Their dress had the appearance of feathers. Their feet were purple. Their wings were brighter than gold. Their hands were

wider than snow. And then in the last one, this is in the apocalypse of Abraham, an intertestamental book. They're describing the devil himself as around the tree of knowledge standing something like a dragon in form, but having hands and feet like a man's and on his back six wings and on his right and six on his left. So you get in all those descriptions some pretty similar ideas that they're shining in appearance. They're tall and they look serpentine. Is this where we get descriptions of like calling the shiny ones? Yeah, that's exactly where it is. And so the word Nahash is can be used to adjectivoli for a shining being. So when it says that, you know, there's the Nahas that's in the Garden of Eden, there's probably a wordplay that's going on there, probably actually a triple

wordplay going on with the idea of sorcery and magic, which is another word that's related to that. Doug, Jeddah, like the seraphim, what they described as like serpent-like, essentially that angelic sort of class. Yeah. Yeah, if you go to the story of Moses and the pole in the wilderness, He holds up the pole. So the word seraphim is used as a synonym with Nahash. They're the exact same kind of an idea. So one's a kind of fiery serpent. The other one's a shining sort of the thing.

And this kind of just makes me think of the transfiguration. I know we've talked a lot about that on our show, but Jesus goes and sounds like he does something similar, right? I always thought that was just a weird part of the story. Like, why does he light up? And I think about this, too, guys. Like, I think that all over the world, we find these effigies of serpents. And even here in the Americas, we have the plumed serpents. and this feathered serpent.

That's almost exactly what you said, Doug, as far as the descriptions of these beings. And we have these things being worshipped, whether it be like in the Anuma al-Ais, you have this Sumerian replacement of the Creator God as a serpent, and that's super ancient. And you have the old but not so ancient stuff

that happens in Mesoamerica where they worship a plumed serpent, which is, what is it about these mounds? Is this a power source for them? Is it a monument? are they building these things for are they building for portals i mean because you you know we talked about this on the top dog you like you went to to visit our friend roger in minnesota who portly has a surfer mount and he talks about how there's an egg and throughout the egg came stuff right

like this is this is his story and we see these things you know all over the planet and you guys have found one bishan which is you know northernmost region of the trans jordan and it's in modern-day syria right so people don't have a you know a place in mind when you're listening here Bishon is known as the Golden Heights now, right? And it was captured during the Six Day War in 1967. So this is an area, this is where this is located. What are they doing here? Is this, is this to worship?

Is it, is it, are they opening, are doing something ritualistic here? Are they, I have more, lots of questions. I want to start there. I think I also want to talk about, I want to ask about the cult of serpent as well and how that plays in. But, you know, because you guys have found one, Judd's excavated these things. It's north of the wheel of giants. And this is one of many. There's some in the United States here where we live.

Canada as well. What are they doing? What are they doing with these things? So maybe the first thing to do is to talk about how common these are because I don't think a lot of people get this. In fact, I didn't understand it. And I really started taking a deep dive into this just to figure out how many more there are. So probably a lot of people I've heard of this Ohio serpent mound.

That's the most famous one. it was built on the edge of a cliff that seems to have been an ancient meteor impact. The whole place itself is sort of serpentine in appearance, and then they make this serpent mount on top of it. So I'm sure Judd can speak to some of the reasons why they would put it there, but that's hardly even close to how many serpent mounds that there are. It's not like there's just one in Israel and one here. We discovered that if you've heard of the, you've probably heard of syllabus,

Hill in England. Now, that's different from the Peter Gabriel song where he's singing about Salisbury Hill, but they're close to each other. Great reference. But Silbury Hill is really close to Avebury Circle. And what we found was that 150 years ago, there was surveys and maps that were done that actually showed that there was a serpent effigy that was there. It probably wasn't in the form of a mound, but it was more in the form of standing rocks that were then taken down and used to build other things. But it's really strange because the circle of Avery is right on the very back of the serpent. And when you look at the Silbury Hill, it's almost dead exact position for the location of the Bichon serpent mound and the wheel of the giant. So they

actually make a picture that almost exactly overlays the other one. And there's another one in Canada, in Ontario, does the same thing. That one looks even more like the Israel serpent mound. And it's actually aligned identically to the summer solstice sunrise and sunset, which is crazy. Like the Canada and Israel, how could that possibly be the case? And then we find this idea of serpents, eating an egg all over the place. Like there, there's a couple more mounds in Scotland. One of them was doing that. You've got a mound in Seattle that's still there covered in trees, but it's in a it's in a park just north of Seattle where he seems to be eating an egg. And that one also seems to have some kind of a circular mound in the same kind of general area. You have some mounds that

were in Illinois, one in, it was in Chicago where it's eating an egg. You have, you have some in the Dakotas, Iowa, Kentucky. You have one down in Florida. And a lot of these are no longer there because they were destroyed by the white men who came along and farmed the land and stuff. But we have the maps and we have a documentation of what they look like. And they're very, very similar many of these times. So that it's not, it seems like it's more going on than just, you know, in some cases, they're clearly like making effigies of animals on the ground. And sometimes I think that those serpent mounds are doing that. But other times, I think there's something way deeper going on that really seems like it is hearkening back to what we're calling the original source, which is the one in

Israel. So I'm sure Jud can say a lot more about this. But people need to know that the serpent mound idea, it's all over North America and, in fact, probably more here than in any other place that we know about. Yeah, I mean, Jed and I have talked off the show, about this specifically and if every every place you described also we've dug up on our show just reports of giant skeletons being discovered in all those places like all those places in newspapers and this one in Bichon is huge you can't even really see it until you zoom out it's it's big it's not like the one in Ohio it's a mile long yeah something like 20 25 feet tall I can't even imagine how

much dirt would have gone into making this thing if it's artificial it's massive. And that's what like Fritz talked about. Some of these mounds are seven stories tall. It's a lot of dirt, you know, and Jed and I were talking yesterday a little bit off, off camera, but I mean, if you've spent a winter in some of these places, you have a small, you're a short growing season. And they say they're Native American. The Native Americans built these. But how and why would human beings, the short growing season and one of the coldest places in the country be building these mounds with this massive amount of dirt. It doesn't make any sense that these, that the narrative is they're Native American. I get frustrated with people who either they're critics of the show or

they've just been to, you know, public universities. And this is what they're being told. And they just think people like us are crazy for suggesting that there were giants, let alone, and the giants were building these mounds. But the fact that they're all over the world gives a lot of credence to the fact that, like, well, if there's just a native thing, they would only be here. but they're everywhere and why and they're emulating each other across the across the oceans like what in the world would make you want to make the exact same thing you know 5,000 miles away from the other thing 2,000 years ago yeah with the same kind of astronomical alignments in ideation engendered in it I mean that you're we're talking about the transportation of

not just technology and engineering skill but but the idea is the symbolism behind them. And this may, I think that it does speak to a diaspora that happened of giants out of Levant. I wrote a chapter in interview of the giant called Out of Canaan, in which I talked about the western trajectory of the giants that had been dissipated in the Levant and the ancient Near East in general. And they just, they did what they did in millennia prior to that as they went to these other parts of the world that had simpler societies and set themselves up as the gods and god kings of these places. And Luke, as you alluded to, the serpent imagery was very much to the fore. You know, and in the cases of societies that built monumental architecture, like it goes in Mesoamerica, you find it very much to the fore in the form of the castle of water. the feathered serpent and the previous Kukukkahan worship by the Maya and the

Olmec also revered the feathered circuit. So the timelines line up, the window of opportunity lines up and it's interesting that the conventional dating of these sites in North America lines up with that very late Bronze Age, early Iron Age window that I talk about in out of the Yeah, it's interesting, Judd, because I didn't either remember or know that you had written about that because I think I'd had an appendix in my giant book where I do the same thing. But I used completely different sources where the idea is that they were in Canaan. They might have come from somewhere farther east there, but at whatever point, they land in Canaan. And then when Joshua, you know, kicks them out, they start going west and north. And they go to the islands,

you know, Cyprus and stuff like that. Then they head up into Turkey, Galatia. They're kicked out of there. They head up into Gaul and, you know, modern France and Germany, where Julius Caesar meets them and talks about these berserkers and stuff like that. They get kicked out of there. They go up into England. You go to Ireland and they're kicked out of there.

And where else is there to go? Like, they're at the end of the world. So they go across the ocean. Do you think when you look at these serpent mounds and you look at the A, it kind of looks like a snake, but it also looks like some sort of sign of fertility. Yeah. Like a sperm. Yeah.

Is there some sort of connection? What is the fertility part of that? So there's a crazy temple in India that I came across. This is in the southeast part of the country of India. And supposedly the pillars in this temple are 6,000 years old. Now, you can see a couple of videos on it that are in some Indian dialect, but you You can make out enough what they're talking about to see that there's some crazy stuff in this place. So there's four pillars that show embryos in the womb with the umbilical cord on them.

And these are like 6,000 years old, they say. And very clearly, there's no mistaking that these are embryos. The only reason somebody would deny that is because they'd say there's no possible whether they could have known that. So in this same temple, they have some very similar looking carvings on the stone to the Bashan mound and to a couple of these other mountains too. It looks like it's kind of eating the egg. But if you really look at it, it looks like a sperm is fertilizing an egg. So that fits with the whole idea of that we were talking about even with the orboros from the cycle of life and fertility that you just brought up, Nate. Well, it's crazy because I'm reading there right here that they didn't even discover sperm,

look at it through a microscope until 1677. So if they're actually creating these mounds that look like a sperm, how did they know what they look like? Exactly. That's an excellent question. It's a great question. But the fact of the matter is that obviously they did. Somehow they did. And this is what I bring up time and time again is that there were some technology.

whatever it was, some body of knowledge that allowed them to discern this that we've lost. We don't have a complete record of. And it just amazes me that most academics are so uncomfortable with that position. We have to admit that just by the residual evidence, it had to be that way, but we don't have the physical remains for, you know, that technology. But clearly, with the preponderance of the, of the, of the, the occurrences of these serpent mound, whether mounds themselves or this iconography in temples and structures, clearly they didn't know. It's even weird than that. I think you guys have probably

heard this on the show before, but a lot smaller than the sperm is the DNA. And there's a lot of really strange stuff that is in the ancient world where the iconography resembles the double helix. And the way that they usually depicted is with a human torso and serpentine legs that are entwined. So like what's going on with that? If I was to put that into a biblical, mythological sort of, you know, world view, I'd say, that's the Nephilim. It's a half, it's a half breed, but it's DNA. So again, you know, how in the world could they have possibly known that? Gen 6.

Yeah, that's what does it right there. It just blows the whole Native American idea out of it. I mean, there's just so many little clues that these things predated them and it's frustrating. I think I would add just to caveat. I mean, you can't completely take the Native Americans out because their part, I mean, their presence is events. But by that same token, you can't really take the giant component out either. So if the giants were true to form, they were despotic and tyrannical and bloodthirsty and subjugated populations, which can be seen throughout Native American or.

history and folk war. You know, they clearly were a war, an ongoing longitudinal war with these things. What do you, I mean, what do you think, what do you think they are, I mean, again, I want to know what you guys surmise they're doing with these mounds. It'd be easy to say they're just burial stuff. It's burials, right? But we know enough about the pyramids. We know enough about their precise locations. We know about megalus precise locations on Earth. We know about, we can we can hypothesize that they were able to you know someone maybe potentially harness energy from the earth to do things you know are they what are they building these things for in your mind are they are these are these to are they like ziggurots to open up to open up

portals are these are these parts of ritual for you know the the watcher religion i mean we're talking about about the worship you know we talk about the nephelin we talk about the you know the ancestor worship of of the watchers and the and the and the and the the watchers and the and the them sort of setting up this, you know, inverse religion of Yahweh and God, right? Like this, or Yahweh being God, like, what are they doing with these things in your mind? Is it just a, is it just a temple? Is it a rudimentary temple where they're just sort of creating an effigy to honor their serpent God, or is there something more that they're doing with this? Yeah, I was going to say that, you know, I think at the very least, when we know that these guys were employing the idea of,

It's an ancient esoteric idea, but it's also a Christian idea that Jesus puts into the Lord's Prayer that we're to pray that, you know, his kingdom would come on earth as it is in heaven. So there's somehow this mirror going on between heaven and earth. Okay. And so a lot of these, you know, it's not just serpent mounds. You see this with the great pyramid. You see this with the way that they built the three pyramids together to emulate either Orion's belt or I forget the other. hypothesis is that but it's another constellation you see this at uh at anchor watt where the entire complex um in cambodia it mirrors the constellation draco which is really interesting because that's

one of the serpent constellations we we discovered that uh the mound in uh florida was emulating the constellations serpens which is another serpent constellation and then probably the the biggest one one of them is that the Ohio Serpent Mount is not only aligned for lunar sunrise, sunset at their maximum and minimum, and also solar sunrise at the solstice, but it's also emulating and pointing also to the constellation Draco. So there's something going on with that heaven and earth mirror. And so I decided to do something because there apparently was a wood hinge, another circle, kind of like you find it, Avery. That was in a very similar position to the Ohio mound that we find Gilgara Rafahim is to the mound in Israel. So that actually was used as kind of a viewing point for all these celestial events that were being marked by the mound.

but when you overlay it just for fun with the mound in Israel and you put the wood hinge is on top of Gilgal Raphaim and then you put the two mounds together what you find is there's really no significant alignment that you can discover however and this kind of gets into a technical idea that's known as the great year so the great year is this basically 26,000 year cycle that it takes for the sun to rise through the whole 12 constellations of the zodiac. And what I mean is, if you were to go out on like, say, you know, June 21st and you were to look straight east, you would find right now that the sun would be rising somewhere between Pisces and Aquarius. But the Earth in its revolution isn't a perfect, it's not perfectly spinning like you would find on a top when you first start spinning the top. It's more like a top when it starts slowing down. So the top of the top of the earth starts pointing slightly off of true north. And so what that means is that the north star changes over the course of this 26,000 year period. And so right, right now

it's at the star Polaris in the little dipper. But you go back a certain point in time. And it was actually right in one of the stars that's in Draco, the constellation that the Ohio serpent mount is patterned after but you go back farther and it's in the con the north star is the star vega and so just for fun i decided what would happen if you went back to when vega was a north star with any kind of alignment and the craziest thing in the world is that that puts you back at the same general age that judd is finding that go beckley teppi is dated to and that researchers like graham hancock and others are dating this kind of great cataclysmic flooding event that took place around the world.

It's all at the exact same time. And lo and behold, the weirdest part of it is that when you do this, you find that the serpent mountain and Gilgal Raphaim are pointing due north at that point in time at Vega, right over the dead top of Mount Herman. Yeah, the central of the three peaks is just right over the time. Right over the top of it. I mean, the dead center of the mountain. So all that is a long ways of saying that we are of the suspicion that, at least in several of these cases,

especially the ones that seem to be related to each other, they're actually commemorating the coming down on the watchers on Mount Herman. With the mounds. With the mounds. Yep. That is a fascinating thought that it's like a sort of a homage to sort of their creator, their parents, their history, their destiny. their destiny, where they came from.

And I don't know why the church is just, you know, asleep to the gods and this whole history. But sometimes you just realize that, yeah, they're worshiping who they think is God, who they think is their God, their demigod parents. It's just a fascinating way to think about these mounds. There's just multiple aspects, multiple reasons,

and that's interesting. Well, and there's no reason why, the temple can't have, you know, multiple functions. I mean, clearly, even just from a purely ritualistic standpoint, they're seeking concourse with these entities. And I have no doubt that that's what that's a big chunk of what was going on, a lot of these serpent mounts. But getting back to what Doug, you know,

Doug's eye opening, you know, discovery about the alignment and the timing during the course of the great year is that it lines up perfectly with when you start to see all these late prehistoric city states like not just go back to teppy but you know the slightly older ron teppy tail caramel in syria which was a natufian settlement a natufi and jericho and israel is dating to the same time window so you know what we're looking at here is that we don't necessarily have a smoking gun but i think i think we've got got a the proverbial compass needle is is pointing to this general time when the watchers were on the earth and the serpent mound along with the Gilgal Raphaim as a sort of stylized or roboros is a monument and a ritual site that's giving a nod to this this event you know we talk with Derek gilbert a bit about the way that they would they would utilize in the ancient especially in the watcher sort of watcher cult they would utilize the threshing floor for these these ritual ceremonies where they would essentially do you know sex magic um do you think that some of these

things were created because we talk about the egg and in sort of the fertility thing there and my head automatically goes to and it could be way off but the idea that a lot of these rituals and we talk about how the watchers tied humanity you know the kind of roots and and sorcery and and witcher's craft essentially, right? And these rituals that were, you know, magic. And we see it today, too, you know, this whole New Age movement and sort of the, you know, the Mickey Mouseing of New Age and ritual. But if you go back and we talk about this in history, do you think, do you think there was stuff like that that was happening in coordination, you know, in correlation with the egg and with these as sort of de facto temples? Like they were using these in the, in their, in the

ritualistic, they were doing, you know, using these for magic. Like, you know, much like we see with, in some ways, the way they were trying to, you create open portals with ziggurots and stuff like that. I think, I think so to an extent. I mean, sacred prostitution and ritual sex was, was pretty widespread in the ancient world, just in the ancient near East, but the Mediterranean, Southern Asia, really all over. And you could really sort of look at the first, you know, the, foundation for that genre of thalmaturgy of high magic you could sort of look at the

prototype for that the blueprint for it with with the Mount Hermann event itself falling on the watchers and then they're mating with human females so that that's really kind of the template that we're looking for and as I say you you see it you know it's almost perennial in a lot of the religions of ancient city states do you think any of any of that stuff has to to do with because we're north or we're in in relation to the to goyeth rafaiim you think any of these I'm just spitballing because it could be way off but do you think any of these serpent mounds and in relation to things like that actually had to do with sort of trying to try and to replicate or induce these post-flood incursions where we where we see the maybe the ritualistic creation

much much like nimrod became a gobor you have this ritualistic sort of methodology in order to to bring about like giants and you know not in the same way we have the watchers touching down on herman but in a different way where you have the mixing of DNA angelic and human DNA and this is totally this could be totally out in left field not could be way off and reading too much in these serpent mounts but this is kind of where my head goes in some of these spaces sometimes well if you go to tower babbles and you brought up Nimrod probably the builder of it and what's the idea of tower babel so it's really the cosmic mountain which is the meeting place of the divine counsel and the link between heaven and earth, the stairway, there's, you know, that Jacob sees in his

dream, it's essentially the same thing, although that's not manmade. But the point is that you're trying to create in the Tower of Babel this link between heaven and earth so that you can reestablish a connection that most likely existed prior to the flood, but you're doing it on your terms instead of on God's terms, slight so evil. But that's watcher related. So we know that like these pyramidal structures, that's kind of what they're doing. And that includes even the ones that are in South America where they were doing ritual, human sacrifice and stuff like you see in Apocalyptic. And in those cases, you have the serpent motif all over those things. So my first thought would be if these things really are commemorating that same general area, and we know that they're

doing certain things on them, like burying their dead, we know that for a fact. And we know that for a fact. know that the demons, what a demon is, historically speaking, with the Jews and all the earliest church, is that they are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, the giants. So you're making a connection somehow to the demonic world through this mound that you're then aligning to the stars and to the sunrise and to Mount Hermann. It's not a far stretch to make the kind of leap that you're leap in there, making their Luke. Yeah. Yeah, they're, what do they call those knives that are multi-functional. A katana?

Swiss Army knife? They're like Swiss Army knives. It's mounds for the giants. They're like big giant Swiss Army knives, right? Did you say Katana? You said katana. Yeah, I did, Judge. Thank you for recognizing that. Yeah, I mean, there's a,

and I think that's what's hard about the blurry spear and the blurry verse is that there's always, there's always a complicated answer. It's not as easy as, the giants. I think that what you were saying earlier, Jed, that the Native Americans could have been mixed up in building these things. And that takes us all the way back to one of our first interviews when you said some of the giants could have just been hired out for mercy, be mercenaries helping humans, but they were. Well, that's clearly what they were doing.

Yeah. Get that picture in the Old Testament narrative, but they were doing it for their own reasons, you know, that you, you know, if we're to, if we're to glean anything from the line of Goliath and his brothers, you know, they weren't in the majority. in the sort of main Philistine pentapolis. Specifically, they were in Gath, but that seems to be what they're doing because less so to help the Philistines out. But, you know, the battle between David and Goliath

is really kind of a last ditch attempt to destroy the bloodline of the Messiah. I've got to have another thought. I want to run by you guys. You know, we, I think often we, like Nate had talked, we correlate the serpent with, you know, with the dragon and with the garden, right? Do you think that these are all the ones we see across the world, right?

They're different locales, different places. Do you think that these are specifically worship of the dragon? Or do you think that these are essentially representations like Doug? You talked about them seeing, you know, seeing the watchers and their form. You know, we talk about Deuteronomy 32 in the dividing the nations and we have the sons of God over these nations. Is it a stress to say that what these ancients are doing is creating effigies to their territorial God, which looked very serpentine, or are we talking about an ancient thread, religion that is actually

the worship of the dragon? Or those things the same? That's kind of what I'm curious about, because I know that we have, you know, we've got cultures with many gods, right? And the Bible talks about, you know, Yahweh proving his dominance over the gods of Egypt, for example. So we know that there were these these Ben-A-le-Heem, these sons of God that were, you know, part of the divine counsel, kicked out, they were given dominion over these nations. And according to some descriptions, they look very serpentine. But we also know that there is this overarching cult of the dragon, right, that we'll see we saw in the beginning and we'll see at the very end in Revelation.

And I'm curious, your thoughts on these effigies. You think it has to do with them seeing their god, little, you know, little G god that is very serpentine, or does this harken back to Nakash and the garden and the original dragon serpent and worshipping that and sort of the inversion of the order of heaven? I would tend to think that it's maybe not, well, I was going to say maybe not on either or. I suppose it depends on the serpent mound and what they're doing. So like if you're lining your mound with Draco, which is the far north and potentially even at the very north with the star thuban, then I think something more macro is happening than if you're just aligning it to one of the minor constellations that happens to be serpentine. Okay. But in the case that we're looking at the serpent mound, that very much seems to be pointing to

some kind of a pretty serious, significant astronomical alignment that is probably related to Draco. And the way you first asked the question, Luke, made me think of Isaiah 271. It says, in that day, the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan, the fleeing serpent. Leviathan, the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that's in the sea. This is where John gets his language that the devil, Satan, is the dragon and the serpent, is from that text. But the strange thing about that text is that the twisting serpent is auriboros language, which points you to the back to the constellations, to where the Milky Way, the center of our galaxy

is a giant, the Milky Way is essentially a giant oroborus that it's the serpent eating its tail and at the center of the galaxy is where they have the head in the in the tail meeting. So that's again astronomical and very significant to the heavenly realm and as above so below sort of thing. And so I think that while you could have an individual God sort of thing that would be maybe harkened on with maybe a different mound, it seems to me that when you're aligning your ritual center to something that's significant, that it's more along the lines of the watchers or the kingdom of Satan himself or, you know, talk about it in those kind of bigger terms. It's strange that you say some of this stuff, Doug, because today I was editing the episode

for this week and by, you know, our listeners will have listened to that episode before this one comes out. He talks about the Draco reptilians in and out of that episode the whole time. He calls him, calls him Draco Reptillionian. I've never heard that. Wow. But they supposedly live underground and they come from a specific place. And after that episode, one of the things he said that just has stuck with me all day long is that the kingdom of darkness is vast and very complicated. And I'm just wondering if some of these constellations and stars might be some sort of origin place of some of these entities.

Is that too crazy to think about? Because several guests have made it sound. You hear that with especially the star serious and with the Pleiades and stuff like that. Pleities. Yeah, yeah. It wouldn't surprise me. There's one of the aspect to maybe bring in that's related, which is that Leviathan in mythology is really a personification of chaos. And Judd can talk more to that. But it's really interesting that when you go to like the Greek pantheon of the gods and you look and see the Olympians, where do they come from? They come from the Titans. Where do the Titans come from? Eventually there actually is a there is a starting point in Greek mythology. And that's, the God chaos, which is identical to the Babylonian creation story of the dragon being, you know, having its body flayed in half. And so it's really weird because, you know, these fallen watchers are so closely related to the dragon. And in this case, Satan himself is related to directly to Leviathan. And that's chaos. Like, what in the world are they,

what are they doing? Well, it's, it's about as antichrist of a thing as you can get because God's God of order, creation, goodness. These guys are the exact opposite, as represented by this monster in the sea, this dragon, this Leviathan. Interestingly, all of that imagery is also preserved in the satanic pentagram sigil that has the upside down pentagram encircled by the Hebrew rendering of Leviathan, that very iconic satanic symbol. Yeah, the five-point pentagram, you get the five letters of Leviathan. You find that all the time. That's right. Yep.

And while we're on the subject of language and linguistics, it's just a slight variation in utterance and rendering that differentiates the Phoenician rendering of Bashan, which would transliterating. It would just be the consonants of BT and N. And likewise, for Leviathan, it's. LT in. So you're dealing with the same entity here, clearly.

I mean, you don't even have to turn that far into the biblical text to run into this stuff. It's on the first page, you know, like we were talking about the other night on Iron and Myth. It's, I think it's verse two. The second verse of the Bible. That's right. Second verse of the Bible on Genesis 1, you know, where God's hovering over the waters at the deep and the earth is without form and void.

It's chaos. Yeah. It's literally chaos because, again, there's a linguistic connection specifically with Tahom and the Acadian Sumerian rendering of Tiamat, who was the chaos dragon. Chaos dragon, yeah. And the Anuma-A-Leish. I just think, Doug, what you said is really interesting. To the juxtaposition of those two things, chaos versus order.

And when we look in the scriptures, we see that often like God is presiding over a court, almost a court scene, right? We have the council and we have got to set everything in motion and he set these laws. And we've talked about this in past episodes, Nate, about how it's like the darkness is trying to, is trying to win on, or catch God on some kind of technicality in this sense of it being a courtroom scene. And when you put that and you realize that God is a God of order, then it makes so much sense the antithesis of that. The opposite of that is chaos. And that's what you see personified in the darkness, in the serpent, in the person, and the personages of the figure that we call Satan in the Bible, right?

And it was just impressed upon me that the idea of Leviathan and the way that it's set up in the chaos there, that the pendulum or the spectrum there is, God is completely a God of order and rules. And he doesn't break his own rules, even though he easily could. And yet you have the other side being completely the opposite. And then we talk about the Antichrist, right? So this just gets, I think those positions. if you don't speak it out. It's like it's just it makes so much sense. Let me give you a

way of making this more tangible. So Genesis 1 is really God making order out of chaos, right? So Genesis 1, 2 is chaos. Then the rest of the creation is him making it orderly. But that doesn't go far enough in terms of what's going on in that chapter. So really what's happening is that God is doing something over the course of the six days where at the seventh day he becomes enthroned in a temple. So like Isaiah says, heavens, my throne, earth is my footstool. That's temple language. So what's God doing? He's creating his temple that he's going to come and live in, which is what happens there at the beginning of Genesis 2. Okay, but there's a parallel that takes place, at least one parallel, that I can think of, that is from the bail cycle. So the bail cycle, this is how deceptive the chaos is,

okay the bail cycle is essentially the god yam which is the the sea yam means the sea and he was the ruler of the divine council let's say and at some point the the god bail comes and he takes him he he he usurps him and he becomes the lord bail simply means lord but there's a lot of reason to think that bail is the old testament equivalent of satan in the new testament that the same entity so if you were to substitute bail with Satan in that story. It's essentially Satan taking the throne over the sea. Well, what's the sea? Well, we just heard that the sea is the chaos. Okay, so here's where it's really weird. In the Bail cycle, it takes Bail six days to make his temple, and on the seventh day, he rests. That's exactly Genesis chapter one. But so what is the Bible doing?

Well, it's essentially saying that there's God Yahweh and there's the usurper. His name is Bail, who tends to be God, who people think is orderly and good and all these kinds of things. But at the end of the day, he is the definition of chaos because he's the Leviathan that's in the sea. I love it. That's what my thought was a minute ago is I have two questions. We've talked to a lot of people who say, this is what's coming, right? Eventually, people are going to serve, you know, they think that they're serving Jesus. Antichrist is just the, it's just the bad counterfeit.

So when you think about this in ancient times, do you think that the cult of the dragon, they were just as brainwashed like a cult in the olden days? They thought they were serving the one true God. Because when we think about this, and this is kind of what I was trying to say earlier in the podcast, is that we think that everybody knows that the God of Israel is the one true God. But if they were all brainwashed like a modern day cult, no, they would think that that the dragon is the one true God. And it's this whole thing that goes, it's this competition that is, for some reason, because we've deleted the characters, we don't even know that

has been raging since the dawn of time, right? But is Satan okay with humans serving other gods than him? Is my question? Let me give you, okay, I'll give me another one. And I'm actually quite curious to see what Judd will say about this. So here's my take. on this as somebody who's written on the angel the Lord, and I take my Trinitarian theology really, really seriously. So when you talk about God as a Christian, you have to talk about one and three simultaneously. You can't talk about just one or the other. So I think that the ancients knew this. And a good way to understand this is by looking at the, again, go to the Eugreat, go to the Canaanites and their religion. They have a high god of the pantheon name L, which is a word that gets

transferred into the Hebrew Bible, and it becomes a very common word for God. So the word L. Now, they're different. It's not that the L of Kainite religion is the same as the God of the Bible, but for all intents and purposes, I want you to consider L as the father, okay, because they call them the father. Now, he has 70 sons in Kenite religion, and one of those sons is Bail. One of those sons was Yom, and then he's got a whole bunch of others, and he's got a wife that were, where they, you know, conceive these gods. So when a Canaanite is worshipping Bail as the son, the prince, Prince, Prince Bail, Prince Yom, when they're worshipping them, they're in a way doing this as a way to honor L, okay, who's the high God. So they're going from, they're going through a son to the father.

Now, it's perverted, it's not Christian, but they have that concept there. And I'm 100% convinced that the Israelite Old Testament has the same thing. It's just that in the case of the Old Testament, it's not bail, but it's this figure of the angel of the Lord, who is called God, who's called Yahweh, who Jesus comes along and says, I'm that person. So throughout Old New Testament, both of them, the Israelites were going through a son in order to worship the father. And what's really weird is that you go back to that story of the pole in the desert again, that we were talking about earlier with and the hash and the seraphim, that becomes a point of temptation in the days of, I think, Hezekiah and Has to destroy the serpent. But Jesus comes along in John chapter one.

And he essentially, or no, sorry, John chapter three, right before John 316, actually, two verses right before it. And he says, as the serpent was lifted in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up. And you're like, what kind of a, what is that, what's that talking about? Well, it's talking about his crucifixion, but it's doing more than that. He's identifying himself as one of these seraphim serpentine sort of figures of the Old Testament, essentially saying that I am the son of God that they were worshipping the Old Testament. But can you see the overlap between, it's a little more complicated than just saying that they're worshipping God or not worshiping God. They're literally worshipping God through one of the sons of God. It's like the Rolex and the

fake Rolex. They very, very well knew this. Totally, they're going over to Tijuana to get the fake Rolex. Yeah, it's like buying it from the guy in the corner in New York. You're like, dude, he's got a jacket full of watches. But it's just, but it's just as complicated. Same. It's just, it has just as many moving parts. They want this role, fake Rolex to be the true OG. Yeah, I'm in agreement with you there, though.

You know, I think that they were so convinced that they were doing it the right way that I mean, clearly they were desperate to placate and appease the avenues by which they were taking. to get to what they thought was the true God. You know, they were sacrificing their children. They were sacrificing people. They were, it was a bloodthirsty sort of affair. That level of societal commitment is indicative of strong core belief there. So I, in that way, Nate, it is like, you know, what we would define as a modern, a modern day cult.

Yeah. After all, I mean, the, the deception card is the one that the demonic realm plays all the time. You know, what do they do? They take what Yahweh created, the good, the just, and turn it on its head, create a counterfeit. Yeah, I mean, you don't move a miles worth of dirt if you don't believe that you're moving it to the God of the universe. You have to be convinced. I mean, anyone who's just put a garden bed together understands how much work that is. I mean, that's just a monumental task, especially some of these pyramids.

20 years one like we talked to Derek Olson just the one in Giza one block every five minutes

for 20 years just to build that one I mean that is I don't think there's a human being today who's devoted themselves to such a task

I mean think about it I mean we are the laziest people of all time in the Walmart generation and these people believed in their not only in their hearts

but their souls that they were doing the right thing, serving the right God, and then putting it to action by building something extremely difficult to build. And I just this idea, I don't know, Luke and I have been, you know, we've been, we get trolled from time to time about some of our ideas and stuff. But you do a show like this, 120 episodes in, I can, I'm pretty confident that whoever built the mounds and these things around the world has, it's not just as easy as the Native Americans built them. And you're a racist if you think otherwise.

And it's just, it's so hard for me not to just want to rant on that for 10 minutes. So this episode is just awesome because it's really opening up my eyes to a lot of things you've heard from guys from like Fritz, Zimmerman, L.A. Marzoulli, Heiser. I mean, everyone's kind of dumped a little bit into that of what's going on here and what they're building and why. But I never thought about it. and the counterfeit being so complicated, they must have been convinced that their cult was the true, the true religion. You know, since we've got Dr. Judd here, I would like him to talk, since it's kind of our, I guess, our part three, right, to the demonology thing. Judd, can you talk a little bit about what they're doing when they're building their tombs on top of the mound in terms of demonology and, you know, cults? of the dead and that kind of stuff.

Yeah, well, again, you know, harkening back to, you know, Russ said about the cathonic nature of the serpent. I mean, they're clearly looking to, you know, maintain some sort of avenue of contact, concourse with these underworld deities. And it's something that you see not only in the work that we're doing with the serpent mounts, but it's echoed in necromantic practices, you know, all over the ancient. And in fact, the more recent world as well, you know, just looking at it cross-culturally, you know, I think people would be shocked at how many societies, how many cultures believe that their dominant gods are from the underworld or associated with water. There's that chaos element again.

In Leviathan, yeah, he's in the deep, right? So he's an underworld creature. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that's, you see that in the Mesopotamian obsequia. the abyss, even like practitioners of Haitian Buddha believe that they're Lois, the gods come from under the water, under the sea, under riverways. There are several Native American tribes that believe that the same thing or that as in a case of like the Cherokee and the Choctaw and the Chickasaw and some of the other what used to be called the five civilized tribes believed that riverways were specifically Western-facing, Western flowing rivers,

because West was the direction of death, that these were entrances into the underworld. And the same imagery is echoed in Mayan religious ideology that these sonotes, these catch basins, represented the underworld or were openings to the underworld. That's, you know, these things are replete with all kinds of votive offerings, but especially child sacrifices. So bringing this back to your initial question, Doug, about why, you know, why they would set up graves, you know, either in proximity or directly on top of these serpent mounds, you know, it all speaks to maintaining this concourse, this contact with the underworld. And ostensibly, a lot of these these burials are going to be regal burials of one sort of.

another because you don't go to that kind of length and have all these grave inclusions unless you're bearing somebody of importance. Of course, those regal strata of these ancient societies and civilizations always connected themselves to the gods. And again, at the serpent mountain in Vashon specifically, because you've got the, you've got Gilgile, Refayim in such a close proximity, which we know from archaeologists did have, also have tumuli in it at one point of time. You've got this connection with the refaim, the Rabah, you know, that the Mesopotamians revered, or the Rapa, that the Eucharitic accounts,

Phoenician religion recount to us, these underworld god kings. And so there's definitely that connective tissue between this idea of the serpent that we've been talking about and the underworld and its occupants. When you guys are talking about this, and I think about the Leviathan and the god of chaos, I can't help but think of that moment when Alfred's like, some men just want to watch the world burn, you know? Yeah, because the Joker in the Dark Night trilogy was a, he represented chaos. Totally. Yeah. So when you think about the gods, is Satan okay with human beings being loyal to other gods then? Because it's not loyal to Yahweh, the one true God, so he's fine with it.

Just like Joker in that movie, just wanted to make as much chaos as possible. It didn't matter who was doing the crime, who was being killed, as long as people were just losing their minds. and going, you know. Yeah, and I think, I think, you know, using the sort of Batman world analogy here, is that there's that scene in the dark night where, you know, the Joker's haggling it over with the head of the Russian mob.

And he takes this, he douses his half of the money, this big, interestingly enough, looks like a pyramid or a ziggarite. He douses his half of the money, he takes the guy's cigar. and throws it on and just lights it on fire. And the guy's like, hey, hey, and Joker says, I'm only burning my half.

He says, besides, you know, Gotham deserves a better class of criminal. You know, and that, to me, that was a very sort of, you know, in character with the devil, something that the devil, you know, would do. You know, he's definitely trying to up the game. But as long as it's against Yahweh and his plan, yeah, just kind of anything goes. Which is the nature of chaos. There's no order. There's no control.

There's no balance. Guys, there's something I thought about in this. What I love about this show and what I love about going backwards and then talking to guys like you and looking at the ancients is the, the scriptures come just have, you know, for lack of a better term, the backdrop is so pregnant with meaning, Judd. And what I'm thinking about in this,

and this is one of my favorite scenes, it's 1st Kings 18 and it's Elijah on top of Mount Carmel with the prophets of bail right and I love it because he tells them he tells them like three or four vats of water on his altar and he says where's your God is he basically says is he in the bathroom is he indisposed he's not listening to right but the idea the idea that Leviathan and chaos comes from water and maybe I'm reading this too deep but it feels a lot in some ways like Jesus is taking shots at at Penaeus, at Cesar of Philippi, very strategically. And Elijah here's saying, poor water,

and obviously we know that he's making the wood wet, which makes it more impossible, right? This is this whole, he's going to call down fire and it's going to burn up wet wood, right? But it also seems like, man, if this is like, in some ways the enemy and the devil, himself Leviathan, comes from water, and then he calls down fire and it burns up the altar,

but it also burns up all the water in the trench. It feels like there's more meaning there. This is what comes in my mind. And maybe, you know, again, maybe I'm just, I'm thinking about it a lot. But the imagery there to me feels a lot like, like God's saying, yeah, like, you know, where is he? Or the imagery of baptism coming out of the chaos. Right. Yeah, it is.

Yes, Nate. Like these kind of allusions or asides to water. and it's and God taking dominion over it, right? Like, it's cool, man. And I hadn't never thought about that, but that's the first thing to get into mind was just this, you pour more water on this

and watch me call down fire, right, from the one true God. And that's bail. Those are the prophets of bail. We've been talking about bail. When you look at the scriptures, and this is what I think I love about our show name, when you look at it,

all these things are so fascinating because it provides this incredible color in detail to the story and to the gospel, right? And to the things that, like to the many things that we talk about, we talk about Doug with you in episode 100 about Jesus and the bluriest of all things. Like, the many things that he did that were, that across realms, you know, across the supernatural. And I think that like things like this just open, open it up because if we look, if we look for

it, you know, and I know Mike Heiser and I love Mike, he talks about. about looking, they're reading it as, as an ancient and understanding in that sense. So I think looking at the serpent mounts and looking at what happened in Bishon and looking at the cult of the serpent and bail and connecting all these dots, right? It makes the God we serve, not that he couldn't be

any more amazing, but it's just like the spectacular, it's the awe, you know, it's the elders around the throne just saying holy, holy, holy, like it's incredible. Like I don't, and sometimes I think it's just, it's really quite literally the elders around the throne as you were talking i was thinking about joseph and his brothers so this this has some some background to what we talked about already with the heaven and earth thing um when israel is camping around the tent to the tabernacle there is supposed to camp with juda on the east and reuben on the south and you know however it is

to get the four the four card on points that there's some directly correspond to the four cardinal points of the zodiac, the bold, Taurus, Leo, the lion, Aquarius of Man, and Scorpio, which in ancient days was an eagle. So essentially what's happening is Israel is camping around, they're becoming the many constellation. They're becoming the heavens on earth. And wherever they go, God's in the midst of him, because he's on his throne in the middle of the, in the middle of the tent, in the Ark of the Covenant, sitting on the mercy seat, on his throne. So Joseph's actually directly related to this, because you think about, you think about him and his brothers, right? So his brothers hated his guts, man. They wanted him dead. Why?

What all stems from this dream that he had? Where he's like, guess what, man? Sun and the moon and the 11 stars are all going to bow down and worship me. Okay, so let's think about what this picture is actually doing. It's saying that, think about the constellations thing again, and let's assume that they, for a sake of argument, that they're related to the gods that maybe they are the gods in a kind of a heavenly, picture. Well, it compares them to stars, right? Yeah, absolutely. They are the stars. That's exactly right. And that's heaven and earth mirroring each other. And so what is Jesus doing? Well, he's going to make every knee in heaven and on earth and under the earth bow before him, exactly like the Joseph

story. So what do you think, going back to Nate's question a minute ago, what does Satan think about this? So in one way, I think that he's okay with the worship of the other gods. In fact, I think it's more than that. I think he has no choice because in my understanding, the good possibility that Satan is actually was the specific, he was this very specific deity over a very specific place, which was Rome. And of course, in that day, Rome was the capital of the world. So that's why he's called the one who has the kingdoms of the world in his hands. And he can offer them Jesus, because at that point in time, he has all the kingdoms of the world to do that to. I think he kind of, I think he kind of personifies all of the gods to do.

day in our minds. But, you know, just assume for a minute that he's one of many. Well, he was allotted to one specific place. And he knows full well that the gods that were allotted to Babylon and to Syria and to Egypt, that there are different deities. And he can't, he can't rightly take the worship that's due to those gods. But the whole point of this Mike Heiser-Duteronomy worldview is that Jesus is taking away their right to rule and gathering that rule to himself so that the son of man will get all worship to himself. So if that's true, then this is really a battle of the sons is what it is, and which son is going to win. And the Bible tells you which son wins. Well, how do you think that's going to make at least most of these other guys feel and act?

I would say not well. They don't like him. And so they can do everything they can to take that worship away to, you know, forstall the inevitable or whatever the case might be, whether that means letting somebody else get the glory for a little while, whether it's taking it all himself, fighting between themselves. I'm sure they do that too. But I think that can help people understand what the Joseph and his brother's analogy a little bit about what might be going on with these gods. I love it. It's, it's, you know, I ask that question to you, Doug, too, is because it's like, I think the more our show barrels on, a lot of the questions we get from listeners,

you have to explain to them a lot of times. It's just like, look, the kingdom of darkness is very complicated. Yeah. There's so much more going on. And we grew up in this environment that told us there's like, there's the good guy and there's the bad guy.

And you should just kind of ignore the bad guy and just focus on the good guy. And it's like, you read this Old Testament stories. You start young. You get the knowing the flood story. and you're just confused from the beginning. And then you get to a certain age and you just abandon your faith

because you really don't understand any of it. And you have no context to this. But I think about this, guys, and this might be too weird, but think about how all the masterminds of human beings can convince the worldly leaders to go along with the plan, right? And I think that's going on in our world now.

They don't do it in a way, and I've seen this in just industries, right? There's always this slimy guy that can somehow convince all these other people to follow him. And there's some people behind the scenes like, I don't really like this guy, but he's the kingpin. I think about just like the gangsters of old.

Satan's like the original gangster, and he knows he's got to work with all these other gangsters if he's ever going to have a shot to take down the God of the Bible, the true God of the Bible. And I don't think he can do that if he doesn't play them. But I think Satan is

even got the gods sort of brainwashed, let alone human beings. Is that too crazy? I think they play each other for sure. I absolutely do. But he's got to be a little bit smarter than even the lesser ones, right? Because he is sort of a chief chieftain.

He's up almost at the top, if not one below. Well, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. He was, I mean, he was in the Angelica host. He was top dog. If the scriptures are any indication and in fact, what we can glean from world history through the lens of the Bible. Yeah, clearly, he's the second most intelligent entity. Yeah. The best narcissists are lovable.

It takes a lot of wisdom to figure out this guy's not what everyone thinks he is. Exactly, you know, and before you know it, you're drinking the Kool-Aid in South America. You are. You are. I mean, anyone who's dealt with a narcissist knows, I mean, it's hard. And it's hard to identify those traits in yourself. Yeah. And it's just like, I think if he's the chief narcissist, then he's got all these other gods somehow loyal to him as well.

And then here comes Christ in a manger, you know? Just what a, what a backdrop that's just the humility of the humble, yep, the humble service. Were you going to say pregnant? pregnant with meaning dude we can't have it we can't have it three times in the same show yeah we are talking about the fertility of the serpent mounds

and the backdrop is more pregnant with meaning than we even realize so legendary at this point dude that's amazing but uh but it just love that this god just kind of sends in his little like oh yeah I got this manger and we're gonna we're gonna take

out this giant plan with this way it's such the antithesis of this giant pyramid that they built forever and then like Jesus comes hanging out with some donkeys some cows and it makes me wonder about the celestial event you're talking about stars of that night itself in the sky that's that is a whole other show yeah that's uh nat's always trying to open a new show at the very end of the of the current show that's it that's your that's your that's your that's your christmas episode bro or actually it's your it's your it's your 9-11 episode is what it is.

You're like, what? 9-11? No, I know. We've talked about it. That's the real, supposedly the real day. That's the deal. At the time of year. Feast the Trumpets.

It's crazy that there was a chaotic event on that day. There's been more than one. Or maybe not so crazy. Yeah, maybe not so crazy. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, anyone, I love you guys. Thanks for, I could wrap it up. I'm sure we can keep talking forever.

We're going to be looking forward to the paper. slash book coming out and once that does we'll have to have to do a recap and we'll sell one as a paper and then we'll put leather bind the other one so it's yeah many leather bound books yes yes this is good I've been blurring since I woke up this morning I've been editing all day long thinking about these complex this week's episode and the god of chaos is just it's like when you guys talk about this and Leviathan it's just after all these hours of thinking of about this and just how complex it is. Wow, what a cap to the day.

And I think a lot of listeners just don't, they're afraid to see the vastness of the kingdom of darkness and realize how much they need to get involved in this game, Game of Thrones. And it's like the Lord of the Rings, and we've talked about this, Jed. It's that many characters,

it's that level of storyline. It's complicated, very complicated. I think you made a good point. point though, Nate, and I want to just reinforce that, that I think, though, and I don't know if you guys agree, but I really do think that in spite of all these lessors, that there is a chief enemy. And if we look at Ezekiel and the anointed cherub, right, and who was in God's Holy Mountain, walked in the midst of the stones of fires, imperfect in all his ways until he fell, you have this very high-ranking angel that was in the garden and, you know, and, and

fell. And I think, like, I know that we have people in the space that like to say that the Satan is a name. It's the accuser. There's many of them, right? But it does seem to me that there is a chief among them. And it's not like the chief of the watchers. I'm not talking about Azazel or. The Jews talk about that very thing. They talk about kind of the Satan of Satan's. And if you think about his name being this particular character of the New Testament being identified. not just as the accuser, but also as the Leviathan, and then you move that back again into the Greek pantheon, that's the top dog of the entire pantheon, is chaos. So I think you've got good reason to have that kind of parallel. And then you said the narcissist, Nate, I think it's fascinating in Ezekiel,

it says his wisdom was corrupted because of his brightness. I mean, there's a lesson in there for everyone, but at the same time, it's the, it's the, It's the original fall, right? That we... You could become like God. You can be better than God. You can become like God,

or you think so much of yourself. Yeah, I mean, when we've talked about this a bunch of times, it is the original temptation, too, that, like, you know, eat this and you can be like the gods. But then, and then, and you, you put the backdrop of,

that's why I said the backdrop of the manger. It's not this, it's not a narcissistic entrance into the world. No, it's exactly, that's incredibly awesome as it's exact opposite. The most humble, the most humble of humble

entrances into for the king of kings he had nothing about him that we should desire him right basically saying he was kind of ugly like I mean for yeah for all the everything about it just

it wasn't like it wasn't like Brad Pitt running around right like man look at that guy he was just a dude just a dude man just a dude with a beard there's a few of those on the show here yeah no guys we appreciate it

we uh yeah we appreciate it we uh yeah we your friendship, but you guys, this has been a crazy journey for Nate and I, you know, 120 plus episodes in and we're grateful for you guys, for your work, just for your expertise in this space. You know, you two are among the number that did it put the 10,000 hours in, and we're grateful for just kind of sit and listen. So we're excited about your book, excited about the discovery of the certain amount of Sean, paper. We'll bind it. We've got to I go to Kinkos and buying this thing, man.

We're making it a book. We're excited about the book. And we're looking forward to more of this in the future. So thanks coming on, Blurred Creatures. Hey, Jed, we're on a personal level. We're stoked that you are. You're healing up, man. And you're on the mend.

And I know that you're beloved in our community. So, you know, we're happy to say that Judd's doing well. Judd's on the mend. He's kidding to care he needs. And you sound like Judd Burton, Dr. Judd Burton, DG. DJB again and we're excited to have you sound that way. So everyone,

welcome to the first episode of irony and myth. Jed's got to, Jed's got to say it. It's a backdrop that is, it's laden with all sorts of significance. Layden, yes. Layden. No fertility references in this one.

We've got a lot. Oh, man. Well, guys, thanks so much. Doug, Judd. I love you guys. Thanks for me. Thank you. Yeah, you bet, guys.

Always fun. Because the best, very happy for the way that this thing has grown to over the course the last couple of years. It's just amazing to see it take off. And you do such a professional job with everything, every aspect of it. And I really appreciate that. I mean, so many podcasts are just kind of fly by the seat of pants and to put something out. And from the time it takes you to edit it to the memes that you put together, I mean, the whole thing

is just top notch, though. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, keep it going. This guy right here. It's all mirrors. He's that guy right there. That guy, yeah, exactly.

Somewhere. No, I appreciate it. We wouldn't be where we were if you guys didn't give us some time in the beginning and take a chance on us. Yeah. You guys did. You guys took a shot on us, so thanks for doing it.

I mean, we're grateful for that. Yeah, I appreciate it. We got lots to do, Doug. We got, hey, Doug and Doug and, we got, hey, we got archeological digs. We're just getting. We were talking about this. We've got to find that relic.

We've got to go to Rogers and do some, you know, off-script digging. You know, we got stuff to do. We've got stuff to do. This is the beginning. It is. It is the beginning. We're many years to roll that time cop, right? We've got lots of, lots of time to roll that time.

Well, thanks, guys are the best. Thank you. For the next time. Go to the next time.