Blurry Creatures - EP: 13 Sons of the gods with Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: October 25, 2020

We continue our discussion with author Doug Van Dorn into the prehistoric and antediluvian Earth. Who were these sons of the gods? Why are modern humans suddenly obsessed with finding out more about them? Is is all one big hoax or just a myth? Are the days of Noah bound to return? And were these giants only evil?  Guest: dougvandorn.com [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients that their dog needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right?

That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy, and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA. And thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it. I'm giving it to our two dogs.

You know, and I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting Rough Greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less. They're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Green's really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping.

Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials.

So we're moving in. We're in spring here. We're moving in the summer. Maybe you need to refresh that wardrobe so you're ready for the summer, t-shirts, shorts. These are everyday essentials made from premium materials. Here's a chance to refresh your wardrobe for the summer. At the price, it's 50 to 60% less than similar brands. And we always ask, how do they do this, Nate?

And it's because they work directly with ethical factories, cut out middlemen. So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's a real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floan it shirts or light and air to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio.

If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer, refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. A chimera would then be just a little step lower. It would be a heavenly parent and then an earthly animal parent. And so then they create, however they do it, I don't know if the genetic modification or I have no idea what it is.

And I also don't know if they're real. And that's why I'm like, I think it's probable that they were, but we have no archaeological evidence for it. But if they were, then minotars, centaurs, sirens, lilith, vampire, the kind of things. I mean, all that's within the realm of possibility, in the realm of possibility, in the realm of possibility. Hey, welcome to blurry creatures. We've got a great show for you today. Real quick, if you've been with us since the beginning and you like what we're doing on this show, please go give us a review on iTunes.

Those are super helpful. Luke and I are trying to get to 500 reviews by Christmas. That's right. We're going to try to get to 500 reviews by Christmas. The show is growing. You guys have been sharing this around on social media. and if you like what we're doing, we really need your support.

There are a million podcasts in 2020, and as you know, a lot of people don't put a lot of time and effort into those podcasts, but we edit these, we put music to them, we cut out the fluff, we try to package it in a great way

to make it, you know, an enjoyable listening experience. If you know an hour and a half, sometimes we can go by on this podcast and you're like, man, that was a great episode. That's because we put a lot of work into it and try to clean it up. So all that takes a lot of work,

And if you like what you're hearing, what we need from you is a few things. A review on iTunes is great. And maybe text an episode to a friend or share this podcast on social media. That literally gets this thing going, bring on more guests, and just grows it. So we appreciate you guys listening to this. And the fact that you give us an hour a week is just huge. And Luke and I are super thankful for that. So with that, we appreciate you guys and on with the show.

All right, so let's welcome Doug Van Doren to the show. Doug, you're an author from Colorado, a mountain man, a hiker. You've written several books, but today I think we're going to talk mainly about one of the books you wrote called Giants Sons of the Gods. One thing we ask all our guests right from the get-go. There's no wrong answer. What are your thoughts about Bigfoot? What do you think Bigfoot is? Or do you have any thoughts on Bigfoot?

Yeah, we're kind of in sort of Bigfoot country here. He's been spotted down in the Alamosa area down in, uh, kind of south of south park if you ever watch that cartoon i think you know this stories are that like he uh disappears and reappears it's almost like demonic sort of stuff so if i had to put my guess on it i would say it was some sort of supernatural demon thing we can get in we talk about demons all you want later on with terms of what they are and stuff but uh that would be my guess i think it probably is real i mean you just have too many too many hundreds and thousands and thousands of sightings all over the place.

But we've had, I mean, we've had a wide variety of guests on here that it's just interesting in the way that I can get persuaded back and forth. But I think I really do have to go with what you were saying, Doug, at this point in our journey that there's too much weird stuff that happens around Bigfoot, whether people, it be, you know, quote, UFO stuff or, you know, footprints and then it disappears. or, I mean, Nate, I was watching a vanish last night, the original series about the missing people, and it was eerie to listen to that.

I'm talking the same thing about footprints, people, that just disappear. And there's something really strange about all these people seeing something similar, and yet we don't have anything but blurry photos and blurry creatures. Look at that. Look at that segue.

I have to work that one in. So, Doug, you wrote a book about giants. How do you, I mean, when did you kind of come into, to understand this is a pinnacle part of the Bible and something you wanted to write a book about? All right. So it goes back probably 10 or more years ago now. And somebody goes back a lot farther because as a pastor, I get people asking me questions all the time. And one of the big ones is always what is Genesis 6, 1 through 4 mean. So people ask you that.

Oh, yeah, all the time. And, you know, I just kind of had a standard Protestant, reformed answer that it's the sons of Seth and the daughters of Kane and they marry and they have kids. And I didn't really look much deeper into it. I just thought that made a lot of sense. So I wasn't really even looking to go into this. I mean, I've always had a weird fascination with conspiracy theories. I wrote a book on that too just recently. I guess what happened was I was preaching on the book of Exodus. this and the way I do my research is I go online and I try and look for journal articles,

stuff like that and came across something that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. And but it was totally fascinating. And it was on a textual variant in Deuteronomy 32, seven through eight. And the textual variant says the sons of God and the Hebrew text says the sons of Israel. So the idea is that it says, you know, remember back long ago, your fathers will tell you when the sons of God were given up and according to, what was I say? The nations were divided according to the number of the sons of God. This paper was like 25 page paper on this little textual variant. I read it. First guy was just interested in it. And I thought, wow, it's really interesting but it had nothing to do with nothing to know what to do with it so just put it away and i was

preaching like six weeks later on something else in exodus and along comes something that reminded me of this paper and i'm like it couldn't it couldn't possibly be the same guy so i looked up the old paper and same exact guy the guy's name is michael hezer he was a academic editor at logos bible software for a long time and just moved down to jacksonville to kind of start a university through a mega church down there. So I had never heard of this guy and I knew nobody that had ever heard of him. So this was, I mean, this was 10, 12 years ago, came to find out really quickly that he had a web page and that he was writing a book that he had done a whole bunch of guest appearances on coast to coast, which that totally intrigued. Oh yeah. I mean, back in the day

with Art Bell even. So I started reading this book that he was offering for free that he wanted feedback on from all his kind of people that were following him online. And that's where I started learning about the giant thing, was from this free book. That book ended up becoming his bestseller, the unseen realm. Yeah. But this was like a prototype of it. And so in that book, it talked about all kinds of things that I never heard about, sons of God being these heavenly beings, Nephilim being these giants. And then he kind of, he kind of did a little biblical theology on it, but not a really big one. And so like I had nobody to talk to about it. Right. the only way that I could figure out how I could start making sense of it was to start writing.

And so I kind of wrote a whole book on a lot of the themes that were already in his book. And I never did anything with it because I thought it was too close to what he was doing. But I was just doing that to help me think through it. And then I thought, you know, the giant part of this, I think there's a lot more that can be said than what he's said in this book, because that wasn't the main focus of his book. So, and then I thought, well, if I did this right, I think I could actually sell a couple copies of this one. So that's kind of how it turned into a book was just my own, my own need to understand what was going on. Because I recognize right away, this is not a minor theme. It's a really important thing in scripture. This is a major storyline that had been lost for, I don't know, probably 1,500 years in the church, maybe a little bit longer than that even.

And why do you think it's been lost? What's your theory there? Is it too fantastical or is it a? In some ways, so I think there's a couple things going on. Like, this kind of opens a door to something that's not really about. I mean, it kind of is about giants, but it kind of isn't. There's a book that Mike talks about called Two Powers in Heaven. It's written by a Jewish scholar back in 1977. And this book talks about how the Jews prior to Jesus coming, there was a debate among them about whether or not, to put it in kind of Christian terms,

whether or not there was a Trinity in the Old Testament. And they were arguing about what they called the second power. in heaven. And some of the rabbis were saying that there are two Yahwehs in the Old Testament, but there's only one God. So into this comes Jesus' incarnation and his ministry, and he starts arguing with these Pharisees all the time about how he's this divine figure. Some of them would call the second power in heaven. And they hated this. Like, this made them really mad. In fact, this ends up being the thing that gets Jesus killed, because when he's put on trial, Caiaphas says, tell us if you're the Son of God. And he goes, you've already said so. And then he puts him under oath.

And Jesus says, I swear to you that, you know, he won't see me again until you see the son of man coming on writing on the clouds of heaven. So that's a reference to Daniel 7, where the cloud writer comes to the ancient of days and he's given this eternal kingdom. In fact, I'm preaching it this week. So it's kind of right in my head. So immediately Caiaphas yells blasphemy. Why would you yell blasphemy? Right. Like that's a, that means that you're equating. yourself of God. So that's a two powers text. There's the ancient of days who's the father. There's the son of man who's not the father, but he seems to be God himself. So they're arguing about this. Long comes like John's gospel. He writes his gospel and a lot of people think that the beginning of

that gospel is kind of a polemic or apologetic against Gnosticism. So this idea that Jesus is the word made flesh and flesh is this evil thing in the Gnostic world because it's the physical realm and the only thing that's good in their worldview is the spiritual realm. In fact, John's not doing that at all. He's actually writing to Jews and he's using their Old Testament to explain to them who Jesus is. So when it talks about, for example, first verse, Jesus says the word. The word is with God. The word was God. That goes back to Old Testament passages. Like a good one is Genesis 15, 1, where Abraham sees the word. The word speaks to him. It's a really weird passage that people don't notice. That's Old Testament language to call this second person the word.

He uses another word, a couple more like the word name. Jesus is the name of God and then he's the glory of God. These are all Old Testament words that are being used to talk about him. Our last guest mentioned this. I think Ron kind of brought this up that the word Elohim is plural in the Old Testament. Is that kind of like a little bit what you're talking about? No, I think that's a separate issues. Elohim is just a word that is like the word sheep. So if I just had the word sheep, how many do I have? And the answer is you don't have any idea. I have to tell you in a sentence.

So Elohim can be one or it can be many. So, you know, the sons of God would be Elohim. It would be gods in the Old Testament in Hebrew. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

I like to be simple. like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Get a simple bill. That's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number. Get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up Blurray every day, giving us the scoop on what's going on in the academic world and the ancient world on Mint Mobile.

Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Mintmobles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price. plan options available taxes and fees extra cement mobile for details so john's gospel being written to

jews and it's explaining that jesus is this second power in heaven who's come to earth to die for our sins well the jews hate it they want to kill him they can't do anything to stop him he rises from the dead he ascends to heaven christianity takes off like wildfire and jews are are converting to christianity like crazy in the first four decades after the resurrection so along comes the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. And now Judaism is thrown into chaos. Like the Jews kind of lose their home. They lose the ability to worship God in their temple. They just have to start writing down all their oral tradition because they're afraid they're going to lose it. Into this is what this book, Two Powers in Heaven by this Jewish scholar says that the rabbis made it a heresy forever

to believe that there's two powers in heaven. In other words, they turned Judaism from a kind of a binitarian or trinitarian thing into a unitarian thing forever it's been that way to this day so that's what happens in judaism and what they had to do then was start tampering with a few passages like judarami 328 where it says the sons of god because that's the kind of stuff that gets right into this worldview like jesus is claiming i'm the son of god well what does that mean to them well it means it means he's a heavenly being but it means more than that because they knew that there was one heavenly being that was unlike all the rest. Okay, so that's the Jewish side. Then the Christian side, you know, Jews convert less and less and less to Christianity after that because they lose the

worldview to be able to do it. Like to a Jew, you say Jesus is God, that doesn't even make sense now because there's only one God and he's in heaven and there's not two persons. So, you know, that doesn't make sense. So less Jews are converting, more Gentiles are converting. Christianity becomes much more Greek, much more, much less Hebrew. And you have to go along a good ways for this to happen. So this happens with Judaism early second century and it doesn't really take root in the church until Augustine and Chrysostrum and about the end of the fifth century. So they're the guys who end up saying that this giant worldview of Genesis 6 is insane, crazy. I couldn't believe it. It's ridiculous. Wild myths of the Jews, like they say all this kind of stuff, but they never

give any reasons why. And so one other thing happened, I think right before that time, is that the book of Enoch, which was everybody was reading this book, First Enoch, in the days of the New Testament, you know, Jude quotes from it. Second Peter does. First Peter alludes to it. So they're all reading this book, but it had been lost for some reason, you know, maybe 100 years before that or whatever. And then so that's an important book because it kind of tells the story of the giant worldview of Genesis 6. So we didn't actually refine that book until like the late 1700s. You make it sound like what we really believe. believe as a church nowadays is what Luther, Augustine, Calvin, all those guys got us on a different tangent that said, oh, this angel procreation theory is crazy. The giants didn't exist. Is that kind of what you're you're alluding to? Yeah, I mean, Luther and Calvin are 800 years or whatever after Augustine. So they're just kind of inheriting the tradition that had been given to them from Augustine and Chrysostrum. Yeah. But yeah, that's exactly what's going on. And so they didn't have

this extra-biblical literature to go back and read and test and stuff. So I mean, I can't blame them in one way, but at the same time, for all four of those guys, this is like really not something that they usually do. They're usually pretty good in terms of explaining the text and why it means this and whatever. But when it comes to this, they're like, this is just stupid. Nobody should have anything to do with it. Like that's the argument. You talk about Heiser's book inspiring you to write your book of the giants. What are some things in your book about the giants and some details about the giants that maybe other books don't go into detail about? Can you give us a little view into the world of the giants and give us some details about some things that you don't hear a lot of other people talking

about that you think that you've, that you discovered? Yeah, so I wanted to write the book. I knew that there was other giant books that are already out there by like Steve Quayle and some of these guys. And I kind of found him pretty sensational. And their focus is really on the second coming. Like, are the Nephilim going to return? There's a bunch of books about that now, especially. Days of Noah stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to totally stay away from that. And I wanted to only focus on the first coming, because I believe that that's, like, that's what we have that's on solid footing. Whether they come back in the future or not, I have no idea. But like, these guys really do matter to the first coming and what happens. So my book is really a biblical theology from Genesis to Revelation on the giants that ends with Jesus in, you know, You know, when he's like confronting the demons throughout his, his ministry, like that's directly into this worldview because the church fathers all believe that the demon, the origin of a demon, a New Testament demon, is that they're the disembodied spirits of a giant.

We talked a lot about that today with Judd. Yeah. So you think, but I mean, the original giants, how big are they? Do you have any sense of that the original Nephilim were, we were talking a little bit about that on previous episodes. We've been, on our podcast, we've been talking about kind of the last thousand years or so, some of the remnants of the giants that were here in North America, some of the mounds, some of the elongated skulls.

But I'm trying to get an idea of like the Antiluvian world, like what was it really like in the original days of Noah? Like, how big were these things and how evil was it? Yeah, I'll tell you, funny stars. Israel last summer filming for a show on this topic. And the guy brought in two different Jewish kind of scholars experts. One was a Jewish Kabbalist guy. And the other one was an archaeologist. So we're at the first site, which is the town of Goliath, Gath. Yeah. And this guy's like, it's really funny. He goes, we have no reason to believe that these giants were any bigger than six feet tall.

And I'm just like, I'm just like, you got to be kidding me. Then we come to this other guy at the end of the trip and he starts talking about oh the giants man they were like 2,000 feet tall and he's dead serious i mean dead serious and he goes he goes in fact og the king of becheon he lived before the flood he gives that whole storyline of of aug made it through the flood on on noah's ark he hitched to ride on noz ark and stuff and he goes uh Moses ended up killing him and the way he did it was moses himself was 12 feet tall 12 to 15 feet tall and he goes Moses had to jump us high as he could with his spear just to clip ogs, Achilles heel, and that's how he killed him. Too many comic books, right?

Yeah, that's like, you know, that's Jewish folklore and stuff. So, like, I'm pretty conservative on this question. I kind of go with what we know from the mounds of the ant, you know, the post-Diluvian world. And I would say that in my mind, you know, where I'm really solid footing up to 12 feet, Probably eight to 12 feet is about what we find for those guys. I'm willing to entertain ideas that are bigger, like maybe up to 20. There's a little bit of reason to think that that's possible, although I don't think it's, it's not real good reason. You know, above that, I think it's 100% speculation.

What are some other creatures kind of roaming around with the giants that you think are also kind of on the earth at that time? So I'm not sure what to do with this whole thing, like the idea of a chimera. Yeah. But the Bible talks a lot about chimeras that people don't even know about. And they put it in the context of demons, which is interesting. If a giant is a disembodied demon, the idea behind that is that one parent is from heaven, the air, another, well, heaven. And then the other parents from Earth. And so what's its spirit? Where does it belong to? Well, it belongs to the middle realm, to the air. And so when they die, they haunt, they don't know where to go. So they haunt the air. And that becomes the demon. So, That would be because it's a hybrid. So a chimera would then be just a little step lower. It would be a heavenly parent and then an earthly animal parent.

And so then they create, however they do it, I don't know if the genetic modification or I have no idea what it is. And I also don't know if they're real. And that's why I'm like, I think it's probable that they were, but we have no archaeological evidence for it. But if they were, then minotars, centars, sirens, Lilith, vampire, the, kind of things. I mean, all that's, all that's within the realm of possibility. Yeah, we had, Judd loves to talk about the chimera. We were, we kind of dove deep for that. So we were talking about giants and you talk about Genesis 6 and them showing up. Can you give us like a high level view of your thoughts of like, it seems when we need Nate's conversations in the space,

it's been, it really does put a different perspective onto the biblical narrative. And in a lot of ways to me it makes it makes things make way more sense when you go from like you know the whole thing and i've talked about a bunch is a lot of postmodern christians seem to be like well you know how do you how do you love or how do you trust or how do you serve a you know a genocidal god right who told these people it's cool to wipe out all these tribes right people groups and all that but the whole thing changes when you're like well these are actually not even people these are hybrid beings yeah so um kind of to me the the key verse is the genesis 315 which the call the proto gospel and the first time that the gospel spoke in where the there's two seeds that

are going to be warring and the seed of the serpent is going to fight the seed of the woman and he's going to bruise the heel on the other one's going to bruise the head like that's the if you if there's a thesis statement of the whole bible that's the thesis statement so i tell people that this topic it's like it's like you don't lose anything of what you believe before but what you're doing is you're adding a whole new dimension like you're not losing anything about the natural dimension what the things that have gone on down here that I think we've done a pretty good job of talking about, but you're adding, you're at least doubling your worldview. Because you're talking about all these supernatural things.

Yeah. So that seed verse ends up becoming really important to the Genesis 6 story, because these are the seed of the sons of God. And that seed is fighting against this seed of the woman. My thought before the flood is that the idea was to, genetically destroy humanity so that we wouldn't be pure anymore because they knew there was going to be a coming seed from the man, from the woman, it would be a human that would somehow destroy Satan. So if you can genetically destroy human beings, then you don't have to worry about that anymore.

There's no bloodline. Right. And that's where, yeah, so that's where the Noah thing, where he's perfect in his generations comes through. It's not talking about moral perfection. It's talking about physically human. He's not tainted. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and Jed brought up something about this whole space,

even the watchers when they were looking at what was going on, even they were a little bit scared. So it sounds like this whole world going on, the days of Noah, we're pretty dark, pretty crazy. And one thing we talk a lot about on our podcast is creatures, trying to make sense of people still see moth man, dog man, Bigfoot. So we're going all the way back to the beginning. And I think a lot of people are reluctant to talk about the Bible and spirituality when they're talking about these creatures. And it's weird. It's almost like there's some connection there between the creatures that people still see today and these disembodied spirits. Yeah, I think that's a great point, Nate. Yeah, you get this with, I think, with probably all the chimeras that you find in scripture too.

Just people still kind of see them and wherever they're seeing them in dreams or visions or as a walk. walking in a forest or they're hallucinating on LSD or something like they're there and what are they if they're demonic entities clearly Isaiah and Revelation talk about these things as demonic entities that's not even debatable in my mind it's weird though because like there's stories of Bigfoot like helping people okay so here this is an interesting thing so if you go back and look at the at how the Greeks talk about the word demon it's not bad and it's not good it's very neutral term. So what they thought were that demons could be, you could use a demon and you could use it for good things, but you have to be really careful how you're, how you're dealing with these

creatures because they can't be trusted. So, you know, go back to a demigod like Hercules or something like that. He's, he's an Nephilim. He's doing all kinds of good things and bad things. I mean, just kind of way you expect in life. I think what's going on in the New Testament in the way that it talks about demons as totally evil is that it's putting it into perspective from God's point of view of what this kind of a creature is. It's an abomination. It's not what he made. It's what somebody else made. They're destroying his creation. And then they don't have his ways in mind. So even if lots of non-Christians do all kinds of incredibly nice things, that's not the issue that the New Testament's worried about is them doing nice things.

interesting what about so talk a little bit too about little g gods right so there's so much mythology you know in in the ancient world the greek mythology roman mythology all this stuff lines up and even interestingly enough in the biblical worldview it's like the first commandment is thou shall not have any other gods before me right yeah so how to that obviously plays into the giant saying can you connect all these dots because i think people tend to look at that stuff as mythology and this and that. But when you were referencing earlier, one of the things that we talked about

in a few episodes back was the idea that things were divided up, right? Amongst these, in the book of Enoch, talks about how the world was divided up with these little G. gods having dominion. And these things then morphed into, you know, what I guess a lot of people in history channels,

they call ancient aliens and all that different stuff. The idea that there's these heavenly beings, you know, most likely we're the fallen angel or the watchers as far as we've... I mean, what you find in the ancient world is a lot of people have the same flood epic story. Oh, yeah. The same thing ends up being not just a bunch of, you know, made up.

People decide to worship a, you know, a cow or whatever, but it has a lot to do with real, real stuff that happened. Here's a quote for you. This is from the famous apologist last century, Francis Schaefer. He says, more and more, we're finding that mythology in general, though greatly contorted, very often has some historic base. And the interesting thing is that one myth that one finds over and over again is that somewhere a long time ago, supernatural beings had sexual intercourse with natural women and produced a special breed of people.

Francis Schaefer is not, he's not into that kind of stuff. And so to read that from him is pretty, I think it's pretty good. So I've totally changed my view on mythology because of him and because of C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, these guys, especially Tolkien, I mean, that's what he lived in. it was that world and they all can have material talking about exactly what you just said, Luke, that mythology is rooted in some kind of history. So my take on what mythology is, is it's generally speaking, it's like origin stories, creation stories, how we came to be, how this people came to be. And you want to put it in a vehicle that can travel through time

and be timeless. How do you do that? Well, somehow whoever they were genius to do it they created these mythologies and these stories that transcend time that we're still talking about Greek stories to this day you know we've totally changed it we've naturalized everything and you hear the psychologists say oh these were you know stories that were meant to give you your ego and your id and your personal persona all this kind of stuff it's not it's ridiculous yeah yeah it's funny it's narcissism you know we have like America is like them one of the most narcissistic cultures there is, you know, and we're all, we're all celebrities now on our iPhones. And it's interesting. And this really gets into conspiratorial stuff. Can you talk

about that? Because people love their words. They call you conspiracy theories. They call you anti-science. They call you a heretical. They just throw these words out, and then they don't have to look at any of the information. And that's frustrating. I know that I'm kind of moving past that. Like, I know I'm never going to get some of my friends to see this. And I'm just kind of like accepting that and moving on. I think those who want to hear this, you can hear it. Here's what here. And if you don't want to hear it, that's fine.

So could you talk to a little about that? Like some of the conspiracy stuff and what you're up against? That's funny. I wrote a little post on my Facebook today. I said a lot of people think that if you can't see it, taste it, touch it, put it in a test tube, that it doesn't exist. Religious lunatics. So it's like the way atheists treat the Bible. In other words, they treat the Bible like it's a conspiracy theory.

And then I said, a lot of people think that if they aren't seeing it covered by the mainstream media, it isn't happening and it isn't real. Conspiracy theory. It's the same thing. Like it's just where I get my information from, that's the ultimate source and nothing else outside of it could ever possibly challenge what I think about anything. It's 20-20 in a nutshell. Exactly. So giants, back to the giants for a second, though. but flood comes, supposed to wipe out the nephalum.

And then we have the refaim or the risen one. Like, what's your theories on how giants, did giants survive or did we have another incursion of these angelic beings, you know, hybridizing with humans again? So first of all, you use the word refaim. That's a good word. That word means the healing ones comes from the word raffa. Now, we were just talking a minute ago about, you know,

Bigfoot saving people. from lakes or whatever. And now these guys here, they're called the healers. Isn't that interesting? It is weird. So you don't get the sense that they're all completely evil in every possible sense. In fact, I think that God held out salvation to them, to be honest, through Moses. If you would let my people go, I'm not going to destroy you. That's a very gracious offer for him to do that. Doesn't it say that in the book of the giants, though, that they went to Enoch and tried to get Enoch to intercede for them? Yeah, I think so. It's been a while since I read that passage, but my thought is like I'm not dogmatic on this but I kind of look at what are the options for how they survived the flood you have the

Jewish fable option which is that Ogg hitched a ride on the ark like I'm pretty sure that that one didn't happen it's like Marty Mcfly in the beginning of the back to the future right like that didn't happen you have the you have the DNA option that somebody on the ark carried the genetic material so maybe like Ham's or something like that. Like, I think that's a logical possibility, but it kind of ruins the point of God destroying the whole earth because of this. You have the option of it wasn't a universal flood, and some of them made it through the flood.

There's actually tons of Jews talk about that, and I think there's probably a couple church fathers that talk about that as well. So that's an option. I know Heiser takes that option. To me, that one doesn't make sense. I can't make sense of how it says that God destroyed the whole earth

and what's the point of bringing all the animals on the archifats the way it was. Yeah, yeah. I don't get that. So I don't go with those. I guess a fourth option would be that, so in Enoch, the original watchers are locked away in Tartarus, and they can't get out. They're done. And so then God makes this promise never again while I flood the earth. It makes at least some sense to me that there was some guys up there who said, all right, he swore he's not going to do that again.

Why don't we see what happens if we come down and do it again? that kind of leads to kind of a fifth but not really a fifth thing, which is that the Tower of Babel might have had something very seriously to do with this. Because it talks about Nimrod. I think this is the Septuagint. It says that he began to become a gibberim. He began to become a giant. Like, what does that mean?

So you have this, maybe somebody was messing with DNA. I think a more reasonable thing is probably just, or least conservatives, is that these guys were trying to recreate what was going on before the flood. That's what the Tower Babel is all about. It's a big ziggurat to try and communicate with these guys. And if they did that, if we instigated it, then I can see another batch of watchers coming down and doing the same thing. That's what I tend to think.

I'm just seeing the bad Kevin Costner movie with everyone on their ships like Waterworld, you know, just like a really expensive bad cop here come the smokers. Yeah. Here come the smokers to the tribe of giants on their homemade boat. What about, I mean, the Bigfoot's associated going underground, the trolls in the deep. Could they go down in caverns lock themselves underground and survive the flood that way? Baby, that's a good question. I'd never been asked that question, actually. I'm just thinking about how there's like trogdolites. I think they're the horrites. So if you go to Genesis 14, that's the Abrahamic Wars against the giants that almost nobody knows about. group of wars about there's giants fighting it's wild it's like lord of the rings i mean think about like totally is it's a it's a great little like 10 verses beginning of that chapter and one of them are called the basically their the word translates into the cave dwellers yeah yeah yeah so i often think i often i often think of like uh bail wolf uh living in the cave or um i think because these guys

actually probably lived in the area of petra and you know the caves in the you've seen indiana jones in the Lost Crusade, and that's Petra made famous, and there's all kinds of these caves sort of things going on in there. And you go over to Turkey and some of these crazy subterranean cave chambers that the Christians used to hide out, you know, from persecution in? Like, where'd those things come from? So, and then you can go even farther if you wanted to go into hollow earth and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. It gets really weird, but it gets really weird. So I think it's actually it's I suppose it's a possibility that would be kind of a different take on the they survived the flood thing wouldn't it well there's just so many reports of saskwash going underground taking

people underground people coming in and especially if someone gets abducted they have there's been several accounts for like the green berets and the military come in to try to find somebody and they they search the lands and there's always a rocks associated with disappearances of people in the state local parks to this day. So there's a lot of people say that they like to be around these rocky areas where they can go down and deep into the ground. You guys heard these Afghanistan stories? There's two different ones. I have not. The Giants of Kandahar?

Yeah. So that's What do you think about that? Is legit? I think it's interesting. Like, part of me says it's Steve Quayle and he's a sensationalist and every time I listen to him, he never tells you his sources. Well, I can tell you, but I'd have to kill you sort of thing. And I'm like, that bothers me. But the story itself is really interesting.

A bunch of military guys, like supposedly shot a giant coming out of a cave in Afghanistan and then. Yeah, they found it. I think he took one out, right? Took one of the soldiers out? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, this is, this is big time giant. This is like 15, 20 foot sort of guy. I got to look this out. People still see mountain giants in, in like, Canada and other parts around to this day. They'll be out and they're different than Sasquatch. They're wearing clothes. They're carrying clubs. People still, people still say they see these things, like the Kandahar giants, but it's, They're very rare, it sounds like. But it sounds like they come from out of the ground still. So that's why I'm thinking maybe that's how they survived the flood. The ones that just got privy to this, hey, the world's going to flood. Get underground, take shelter. And then some of them came out.

Because the dinosaurs didn't make it. All the other animals didn't make it. And maybe some of them did. And that's why they were there before and after. I don't know. That seems the most plausible to me. That's really interesting idea. I have to think more about that one.

Aside from all that, Doug, what was the demise? eyes chronologically speaking when it came to these giants like if they were around and they and they had this in the refaim were around i mean they're not walking around right now you know we've got big people you shakale o'neal and maybe george murasan sean bradley these big these big tall tall guys but not giants like uh there's only one i've ever seen that i think is possibly literally a ref i'm oh yeah it's andre Andre Andre you want to know why i say that i'll tell so i see here's what i'm I say that. First of all, the dude looks like nobody else ever. Ever. Look at the guy. Watch him put his hands around Hulk Hogan's neck.

Hulk Hogan's like 610. And he makes Hogan look like a midget. You ever seen a hold of beer in his hand? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A little kid toy. So I say that because a weird way to answer your question. But the demise of the giants, I think, takes place because everywhere they went, everybody tried to kill them because they were that bad. So this is what happens in the days of Joshua and Moses. And Joshua doesn't destroy them all. Texas is very clear about that. And it tells you that somewhere left in three cities.

And one of those happens to be the city where Goliath comes from. And it's telling you that so that you can be prepared for that story with those giants. But they didn't all die. Some of them fled. And it seems to be you can trace the history of this that they go, at least from that point on, they move upward into Turkey, which would be Galatia, and actually did a series of sermons on Galatia and a couple of those sermons, I kind of mentioned the idea of how the word, I think the word means like milky white, and the whole area is just surrounded with this supernatural stuff. That includes

giants. Wow. So the local people there got rid of them, probably not long after Joshua did. they then seem to migrate up into the realm area of Germany and France. And then you get Julius Caesar talking about how the reason they couldn't take out the guys up there is because they were so huge. They could like jump over horses and they were called berserkers and they would they would kill all of our army. Barbarians, right? It's like gladiator, right? So this is like when Julius is like second century BC. So then he eventually gets rid of them there. And then they seem to migrate to, Britain and Ireland.

Yeah, build the hinges. Yeah. Well, I suppose some of them are probably already up there before that, but that kind of seems to be the wave. And then they're destroyed. And then where else is there to go? There's no more land. So they cross the sea and then they come to North America. And then you get the mound builders in Ohio and all that, all that kind of stuff.

You get Sarah Winamucka, the first Indian woman writer talking about these a love lock cave giants that she had some of the red hair still and and they tried to eat her people and they ended up burning him in a cave coincidentally and and destroying them so it's like after after that long of a time if you're that bad of people uh you're just going to destroy yourself right it's just like that roommate that nobody wants right it's just keeps going to everyone's house if that roommate wants to eat you you have that guy too well yeah i mean the way the way that judge described described them as they were parasites, you know, they were just sucking the life out of everywhere they went. Yeah. They're just kind of pillaging the village and stealing kids, eating people.

So, I mean, it's weird because on one hand, you describe them as being sort of ambivalent or neutral at times, like a friendly Sasquatch maybe. Yeah. Well, think about Andre. Like, let's assume Andre is a giant. Let's see he was. He was a super nice guy. He was the giant, right? But then you have all these verses in the Bible that are like commanding them to these armies to go out and take them out. That had nothing to do with they're being nice. It had to do with them being an abomination. So you have to think like Leviticus there. And they're not able to stand in holy spaces because they're not, they're unclean by definition because they're a hybrid.

And do you think this information is like gaining steam in modern, like where, we're starting to see this truth now more than we ever have in the last couple hundred years, like Christians are starting to talk about this stuff? I do. It's a really weird thing. In the last 10 years, more than ever, it's just taken off like crazy. I've often wondered why, and maybe 2020 is kind of the beginning of the answer to that. Do you think that's because some of these creatures are reconvening? There's a lot more set. There's a lot more Sasquatch sightings. There's a lot more cryptid sightings, UFO sightings, all kinds of weird stuff. So, are things moving and shaking again?

Are things moving and shaking? That's the million-dollar question. I tend to think that they very possibly could be, yeah. Birth pains, right? That seems to be one of the prevailing theories is these are the birth pains of what would be considered the end of the end times. Yeah.

So when we talks about Jesus says, you know, he'll return when it's like the days of Noah. I mean, what do you think about that? Is that, are we going to see these creatures again and, like, walking around? That's a hard question. And Nate, because like when you read that text, Jesus only, he doesn't specify the Nephilim part of it. He just says they're eating and drinking, marrying, giving, and marriage.

But the marrying and giving in marriage, like, if we want to look at what that was in Genesis 6, it's not a good thing. So, yeah, I mean, is it possible? Like, sure, just about anything's possible. The end of the world is going to be pretty crazy, I think. I just don't know how much you can go to a pasture like that and just be dogmatic about it. Yeah, it's very general. You're like, does that mean, I mean, I tend to think almost like that it means that like the Tower of Babel, like we were talking about, maybe it becomes a thing where it's, it's human or mankind that's doing the, doing it and creating the abominations,

like whether it be through hybridizing humans, hybridizing with technology, where it's like we're seeing Elon Musk and all in implanting. But who's to say that that's just. just us. I mean, maybe we're getting the technology, the ability to do this because people are communing with these guys. And I don't think that's a maybe at all. I think that's actually quite real. I would agree there. That's, I mean, that's, it goes right back to talking about Brian Forster, Nate, where he's talking about ancient technology and how the ancients had better building techniques than, than those that came after that forgot. Yeah, like, where'd that come from? Right. Like, how do you, how do you basically laser cut giant stones and no one can move and figure out how to

make them fit together. Well, the weird thing. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I think in this episode, one of the things really got my mind going about is this ambivalence, like some of these beings, like, I think Judge talked about it a little

bit just like the watchers being a little bit frightened by what they created. There's this like, these things aren't, I mean, they're evil, but there's a little bit of gray space there. Like, are they how evil are they? Do they have some kind of conscience to feel good? What did we do? Yeah.

It's like an apocalyptic Hollywood movie about creating artificial intelligence, the Terminator sort of thing. What did we do? Yeah, yeah. And these beings are locked up, you said, the ones that made mess with creation in the abyss. The original ones are. I'm not convinced that the other ones are. Where are these beings now, you think? Okay, so this is kind of, you have to get to the geography of Hades in order to understand this.

So first of all, there's some Old Testament passages, Proverbs. I think Isaiah has a verse about it. They're not translated as Refaim, but that's the word that's used. And it talks about how they're basically the kind of the gatekeepers of hell. And you don't want to be there. This is a reason not to go to hell is because the Refayem are there. So Dante talks about that. I think he has a giant's at the lowest level of hell.

So that's a giants. Now that's kind of weird because some of these. demons are like they're demons of the air and they wander around, right? And that's kind of Enoch talks about that. He says that nine-tenths of the giant demons were locked away and then one-tenth was left to Rome, the earth to torment mankind. So I mean, that's those guys, in terms of the sons of God, so the geography of hell seems to be that you have this. It's the place that everybody went to. And I'm talking about Hades here. Because in English, we use the word hell differently. So we talk about

hell for Hades. We talk about hell for Gahanna, and we talk about hell for Tataris. Tataris is a part of Hades, and Gahanna has nothing to do with Hades. Like, it's a totally different thing. That's a lake of fire. So, Hades is where everybody went when they died. Good or bad, believer in God or not. It's called Shiel in the Old Testament. Yeah. And it seems to be compartmentalized. Like, and the Greeks talked about it with, you know, the river sticks, and then on one side, you'd go to the judgment, and on one side you go to Elysium and the other side you go to punishment or whatever. Seems to be similar when Jesus talking about paradise on one side, Abraham's bosom, and the other side, a giant chasm and the tormented in fire.

That's Haiti. So there's like it was this place where everybody went and then there was a paradise side, there's a punishment side. When Jesus dies, he descends. This is the old church father view that I very strongly believe happened because of some the Psalms and stuff like that. Jesus descends to hell and then he ascends as the victor. He's gone down there. He's told them that he has conquered death and hell. He tells them that he's the son of God and there's nothing they can do about it. He rises from the dead. He takes, he basically empties

Abraham's bosom that side of it. So all the Old Testament saints are then brought up to heaven to be with the Lord where we'll be. We won't go, we won't go to shield when we die because of what Christ is done, his death is sufficient to take us to heaven now, whereas they had to anticipate that before. So then it talks about, you know, so that's kind of all the, I suppose, the giants and the people are kind of in that burning side. But Peter talks about how basically the watchers were put into a lower place, like lower than hell into Tataris, which is you go and read the Greek stories. This is the place that's made with adamantium bars of iron. the stuff that they used in the X-Men for Wolverine.

Like that's how tough it is, that they stole that metal. And so they're locked down there and they can't get out. And they're not allowed to get out. I forget how long Enoch says for like 70 generations or something like that. And then you kind of get this idea like you do in Revelation that when Satan's loosed, they'll be loosed and it'll be for a short time. And then that'll be the end of everything. Some of my theologian friends who I see their Twitter rants,

they're trying to interpret scripture with this completely pacifist attitude. And I just read some of those rants and the trails they go down. And it's like, how can you even interpret any of this stuff? This to me feels like the Rosetta Stone of Scripture. Like it just makes it all make sense. It does. It's a little harder to believe. I'll give you that.

Yep. But it just makes more sense. It just does. And I think that some people are just like, it's too easy. It's sort of like Occam's Razor. I mean, do you just move past those people and say, hey, the Giants were here? I don't really have time to debate you. Let's keep going.

Oh, after time, you kind of get used to that. It's unfortunate. It happens with all kinds of things in life, doesn't it? Some people just don't want to hear certain things. There's not much you can do about it. It doesn't fit inside their preferred narrative. They don't, they dismiss it. It's unfortunate because I really, like Nate was saying,

it does, it gives so much richness and context to to everything in the Old Testament. It's fantastical too, which I think is even just brightens or widens that story to think about Abraham battling tribes of giants and this stuff really happened. Okay, thoughts on this, though,

this is what we talked to a few of our giants people about is what happened to the bones? What happened to the evidence? Are they in those burial mounds or do these things get, I mean, people love to throw around the Smithsonian, you know, that somehow they're hiding everything.

Well, they show up. They show up in all the accounts in the old newspapers. They're always on the scene. They always are. I mean, it's a tough one. Like, my thought about that conspiracy theory is that there probably is something to it because, you know, I think there's like a thousand different accounts of giants being discovered in North America that go from 1750 to 1930 or something like that.

Okay, let's say that 95% of them are hoaxes. That's pretty generous, I think. Sure. that's still 5% of them that aren't right yeah so here's a here's a true story for you i came across this article in what was called the minnesota historical society they had a journal back in the 20s or 30 30s maybe 30s they talk about a mound that was up by where my wife was born and raised like just 15 minutes away they talk about how they found a giant skull in it so i'm talking my in-laws one one day and i said do you you know anybody that might know anything about this mound and they go oh yeah there's a dude who

used to be the head of the minnesota historical society who lose right down the street go talk to him so i'm like all right so i went over to the guy's house and uh i kind of presented him with this just you know the weird things that we're talking about what do you think about giants and you know it's going to say he's like it's ridiculous i said you know there's been a whole bunch of stories uh uh about uh that mound have you ever been to that mound he goes oh yeah i've excavated to that mound personally. I said, wouldn't you guys do that? He goes, well, it's back in the 50s. I said, oh, that's, that's fascinating. So did you find anything there? He goes, not much. I said, did you know that they found a giant skull there? He goes, no, they didn't. I said,

oh, yeah, they excavated that back in the 1880s. He goes, no, sir. I said, if I showed you an article from the Minnesota Historical Society, would you believe it? He goes, absolutely. So I just handed him the article and he was totally freaked out. And I said, so like there's no sign of the school. I said, what do you think happened to the skull? He goes, I bet that they took it down to Minneapolis or St. Paul, wherever their headquarters were. And it's probably, probably down there, you know, with all the other sort of things that they found. Oh, let's go.

He said, I'll look into it. He ended up dying just like a year later. And I never got to, I never heard back from. That's the kind of stories that you know. hearing right right i mean yeah the point is there's really credible there's really credible magazines journals that kind of stuff that talk about this not just all sensational barnum bailey circus sort of stuff right there's accounts i mean there's real accounts we had there's real accounts we had a guy on the show who who is uh he curates and in a lot of ways he collects the he's

got 700 plus articles of giant discoveries in north america you know like you were saying from you know from the 1800s to the 1920s-ish. And, you know, one is supposedly happened right where I live in Franklin, Tennessee. They supposedly found a 16-footer at the bottom of a well, 60 feet down. It's just wild stuff. And, you know, that's all,

it seems to be the same argument that people have. Deep down in the ground. In the caves. Well, same people, same argument people have with, with Bigfoot, right? It's like, where are the bones? And, man, at one point, it seems like they had them. That's exactly.

I think that's the important thing is, like, they've said that there's bones. Very credible people have said there's bones. And even to this day, those love, those lovelock bones, they were, you could go and see them as recently as like five or six or seven years ago. Wow. And they've disappeared as well. I have a friend who's kind of investigating that for me right now, but.

I mean, so many people are going to say, how? How is it possible that they sweep this under the rug? How is it possible they can keep this hidden from us? You know, they need jerk against conspiracy theories. But they somehow have been able to do this. Here's one of the things I wrote in my conspiracy theory book. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book is that I get that there's dangers in entertaining conspiracy theories. Like people can become really obsessed with them and it can create like some pretty serious psychological problems for some people.

I get it. I've seen conspiracy theory. I've seen the movie. I've seen Mel Gibson. I've seen what kind of a guy he's like in that movie. I get it. But you know what? not entertaining conspiracy theories can be just as dangerous because what if it's true?

Like, let's say you're a Jew or let's say say you're a German living in late 1930s in Germany and you hear people saying, you know what? They're putting Jews in ovens. That's a conspiracy theory. Yeah. Guess what? That's what they were really doing. That's dangerous not to believe that conspiracy theory. I say this to my progressive Christian friends. I mean, to believe that Jesus wasn't taken by his disciple friends in the middle of the night, and he descended was the biggest conspiracy theory of the day. Absolutely. The government narrative was, oh, his friends came and got him.

And then he's like, no, no, no, he floated in the sky. I saw it. No, you're crazy. You're a conspiracy theorist. It's exactly right. And that's totally fine. So I guess my last thing about floating in the sky, and we can probably end with this. So these UFO sightings, Luke and I think that we like to call him fallen angels,

are in the demonic realm. More and more videos coming around. Bigfoot, Nessie, aliens, they're all kind of in the same boat floating around in this conspiracy space. I mean, have these beings been coming to and from ever since the days of Noah? Is this just nothing new for them?

They're just coming and going. They're doing their thing? Are they the same thing? The UFO things are a tough one. Tough one for me anyway. So not because I don't believe in it, but because I don't know what it is. So there seems to be some kind of a material, physical presence to it. Like if we've captured ships and stuff like that, who's the guy that was on Rogan's podcast a couple years ago talking?

Leneer. I think that was a guy. Bob Lazare, yeah, Bob Lazare. I mean, so you listen to him and he's talking about it and he's not the only one. Like, if there's a physical presence, I don't know what to do with that if it's only a demonic thing. So this is where I actually think the watchers, the sons of God is helpful because they actually take physical appearance in the Old Testament. Like three of them come to Abraham. He washes their feet.

They have a meal with him. Wild. You know? Jacob wrestles with one of them. You think that's a lot like we talk about in the Southwest with shapeshifters and stuff like that too. Very possibly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jacob wrestles with one? Yeah. He wrestles with the son. of God, but he's a watcher at that point in time. He's the angel of the Lord. So anyway, my thought is, I think it's more than just like a spiritual illusion or something like that, things that we're seeing. I think there's a physicality to it. But my worldview allows for it. I don't think that it's, I don't think that it's what normal UFO secular people think that it's like aliens from other planets. I'm not totally unwilling to rule that out. But I think that the host of

an idea in the Old Testament gives room for a lot of things that it could be that that shouldn't totally freak Christians out. That's where I'm at too. So you're, yeah, you're in, I can't at this point, but I don't buy that it's a little green man from, you know, from another planet that just seem to fly around. And I've heard it said that like God is the only, you know, omnipresent being. So these other spiritual beings do have to travel from place to place, whether it be dimensionally or whatever, whatever the quantum physics.

however they do it. physically they have to travel. Like you were saying there's a danger with not believing any conspiracy theories. You know what I mean? Like if you don't believe

in any but there's actually this Holocaust going on sort of thing. Well, what if you don't believe in anything supernatural, any of these beings come back or the government

comes out and says, how are you going to deal with that? It's going to, a lot of people are going to walk away from their faith because they're like, no one ever told me

about this stuff. And you're like, wait a minute, no, no, it's in the book of Enoch, it's in the Old Testament, wake up. And then everyone's like,

what are you talking about? And then it's too late, right? They're just, then they're going to, so there's like, they call them UFO religions. And there's, they're converting a lot of people. They are. It's an unreached people group, honestly. The whole UFO community, like, it's, it's unreached. People are not, there's a lot of non-Christians that are there. Very few Christians that are really trying to make inroads. It's one of the reasons I loved Heiser so much. I found out, like, the first day I looked into him that he goes down to Roswell every year and, and gives like biblical lectures at UFO conferences. Oh, I love it.

Yeah. That's awesome. But I mean, I think that in and of itself makes a lot of sense when you think about deception and the strategy and the plans, you know, of fallen angels and, you know, and the darkness is to deceive. And that happens. And that falls right into what I would assume to be the plan of the enemy. So, yeah, if there was to be some kind of, if.

first contact, you know, or close encounters of the third kind. That would seem to come around of the playbook of trying to deceive people. Yeah. From the truth. I agree. Yeah, it's just weird that they don't have any framework for that. I think you're setting people up for failure. And a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, the church and politics and Christians are, people are leaving Christianity in droves.

And I'm like, well, I don't, they blame it on this conservative Christians that are the reason for that. that people are, you know, young people don't want to go to church because grandpa votes for Donald Trump kind of thing. Yeah. And there's this big movement that like conservative Christianity is the reason that the church is dying. And I'm like, I think it's because there's no supernatural talk. And people see it, smell it here. They go on Joe Rogan.

They hear about it. And then they go to church and no one wants to talk about it. Well, they're like, forget this. I'm not going to go to church if you guys can't open your minds to this stuff. because I can go on Joe Rogan's and get plenty of it. So I'm going to believe what Joe Rogan says over what my pastor says because he's just so close-minded. That's what I'm seeing is that young people are starting to smell some of this stuff

and they're like, how come pastors aren't talking about it? Exactly. I 100% with you, Nate, like I don't think that the church, especially conservatives, but liberals too, quite honestly. In fact, just as much, they don't realize how infected with naturalism and irrationalism and evolution, all this materialism, they don't see. I mean, those were massive movements in the 17 and 1800s, massive, totally seismic shifts in the way that people thought about reality. And they think that they're insulated from it, but they're not. When a worldview takes over a

culture, you don't just escape it by moving into a Christian bubble. You breathe that air every day of your life. And if you're not consciously thinking about how to counter that in your own heart and your own head, you're not going to do it. You're going to succumb to it without even knowing it. And I think that that's where a lot of a lot of people who call themselves Christians, whether they're liberal or Christian or not, or conservative or not, are they're at that place. They give lip service to Satan, but it's basically just lip service. He doesn't really do anything. It's not really much of a power. We've also deified academia.

Totally. Right. And so if we figured everything out, then there is no space for. for wonder, whimsy, or for the supernatural. There just isn't. Yep. You figured it all out. Yeah. Doug, we're going to have people find you, interact with you.

Buy your books. You'll be out in the woods. You're hiking. You're going to see Bigfoot soon. Yep. Any mountain in Colorado you might find me on. Doug Van Dorn.com. So my last name, V-A-N-D-O-R-N.

I got links to all my books there. My books are on Amazon. You can paperback or can. for almost all of them, I think. I have a church website, rbcnc.com, and we have probably 15 years of archive sermons there, and a lot of them are PDFed.

And within the last 10 years, I've been, I mean, my mind is focused on the supernatural when I'm going through just about anything. So like you're going through Galatians, you're going through Leviticus, you're going through, you know, whatever, whatever I happen to have done in that period of time. I've been thinking about these things.

You're going to read things. The Psalms, you're going to read things that you're not hearing from a lot of places. So that's a good free resource for people to have. I love it. We need more people out there willing to talk about this. And I get it. I get people that they have problems with the church and they've been burned by the church and they need jerk against this stuff.

And they come in to listen to a Bigfoot podcast. They get a lot of Bible talk. And it makes people uncomfortable. But I think this episode is great. I think we talked about it in a way that everyone can just take a little bite and not have a bad taste in their mouth. You know, so I appreciate the way you talked about this. It's really good.

A lot of good nuggets here. I'm excited about this one. Really appreciate the knowledge on the giants and the ancient world. Yeah, thanks, Doug. And I mean, Doug's got to, you can't see him right now. He's got a ton of books behind him. I can imagine his office smells like a rich mahogany. I think two rows of that is Atlantis.

Oh, well, great having you, Doug. Thank you for your time. I keep fighting a good fight, my man. And perhaps we'll bring you back. when the next book drops. Thanks for having me on, guys. Later.