Blurry Creatures - EP: 133 Sleep Paralysis with Vicki Joy Anderson

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Writer and author Vicki Joy Anderson makes her Blurry debut to discuss sleep paralysis--the focus of her new book, They Only Come Out At Night.  This topic has been requested by a host of listeners and we dive straight into the deep end. In this episode, Vicki Joy unpacks her own personal and lifelong journey with sleep paralysis and the decades worth of anecdotal, historical, medical, and biblical research compiled in writing her book. The testimonies are raw and real, and the countless experiences she's recorded will cast this phenomenon in a new light. Is sleep paralysis all in the mind, or is it something more profound and dark? Are there entities involved? If you are experiencing sleep paralysis, how do you get out of what she calls "the astral matrix"? All this and more, with Vicki Joy Anderson.  Guest: https://www.vickijoyanderson.com Intro song: Solace by New Arcades contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story, they're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say, what is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December.

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Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. Even those of us that have had many of these experiences, we don't know everything that's possible in this scenario. So some people will say, I saw a shadow man. Some people see an old hag. Some people don't see anything at all. Some people get dragged to a window.

Some people have an out-of-body experience. Some people see technological things. They see lights and fiber optics. And it's more technological hallucinations. And some people hear voices and some don't. And some people see little fairies crawling up and down their bodies. And so I think where sleep paralysis experiences have to support one another is we're not in competition to see who's figured it out. And we're not in competition like who's had the more scary experience.

And I think that when we run into someone who has also experienced it and their experiences wildly different than ours, then rather than saying like, well, you don't know what you're talking about. What we need to say is, I need the piece of the puzzle that you have because the more of us, that get together and put our little pieces on the table, we're going to be able to put a picture together. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. We got sleep paralysis episode this week, but first, Luke. Yes, Nate. We've been teasing it for a long time. This is the little people?

We found them. Found them, yeah. They got little houses. Pretty close, but not close enough. Oh, I know what it is, BlurieCon. Yeah, folks out there, BlurieCon. It's happening. This is for real.

This is a real. This is not a test. Who's going to be there, Luke? Well, you and I are, Nate. Yeah, we'll be there. Bigfoot may be there. He's a little elusive as far as booking. He'll be in a Dolorian shooting T-shirts.

We're going to have Tim Alvarino, Laura Sanger, Doug Van Dorn, Derek Olson, the Megalithic Marvels, and a good friend Tony Merkel from the uber popular Confessionals podcast. And we're going to do it, really doing it, Harry.

That's right. Can you imagine a year ago? We didn't know what we were doing now. We still don't know what we're doing. So set your DeLorean time machines to February 25th, 2023. Go there now. It'll be starting shortly if you do that. But for the rest of us, for the rest of us, tickets go on sale this week.

And there's going to be a limited number, Nate. That's right. We have a limited number of tickets. And if you're a member of the show, you'll get an email to buy tickets early. And if you're not a member, consider signing up. Get yourself the bonus perks here at Player Creatures. You get access to unreleased episodes, chat rooms, and a bunch of other cool stuff. But also, you get to buy tickets to events early and things like this.

So bluerreacheries.com slash members become a member, get access. But for everybody else, Friday morning 11 a.m. And you can buy tickets then. Thank you guys so much for loving this show, supporting us, and kind of making this happen. A bunch of people rallied around and Tim Mabrinos coming to town. And so, hey, we're doing it. We're really doing it. It's happening.

So without any further ado, let's get Vicki Joy on this podcast. Once again, blurry cons coming February 25th, 2023. See you guys there. Welcome Vicki Joy Anderson to the podcast, Blurry Creatures. Thanks for coming on our show. You're the author of the book. They only come out at night, which is about sleep paralysis, those who don't know. We get more emails about sleep paralysis.

I think it's almost in the line of like Bigfoot sightings of the paranormal. Like everyone's had there in this space, if they listen to our, a show they're always like my grandma saw Bigfoot or something, but it's like sleep paralysis something that most people either had some sort of experience with it or, you know, just something about the sleep in general. So welcome to blurry creatures. Thanks. If you haven't listened to the show, we always kick off the conversation. What do your thoughts on Bigfoot? Do you have any thoughts on Bigfoot? Well, I do. So it was not anything that I ever took seriously or, and I mean, I grew up in a family were we talked paranormal stuff all the time.

And I'm talking all the way back in the 70s. I'm at the dinner table and dad's talking about Roswell. And so like nothing's off the table. But Bigfoot never really got talked about a lot. And it wasn't until maybe four or five years ago when I, along with millions of other people, went down the David Politis rabbit trail with the whole missing 411. And, you know, he originally was searching for Bigfoot and stumbled upon this whole other. phenomenon. But between that and just L.A. Marzuli and of people of that persuasion and that ilk,

I started thinking about it a lot more because there's also people, I'm sure you've heard these stories where people are talking about when portals get opened. These things tend to come in and out of the portals. And now there's stuff recently that the Bigfoot conference that L.A. just got back from in Ohio where there were people there saying corroborating, because I've heard the story before. Some people will claim that they've interacted with the Bigfoot's and that they speak and that at least there is a percentage of them that are perhaps almost kind of like the watcher category where they're here to kind of protect us and take care of us and are still kind of fulfilling that original like watcher assignment. And which is interesting to me just because

the only watchers that ever get any press are the 200 that came down Hermann and were bad boys. And so we always think of, we equate watchers with, you know, if they're a watcher, you're a demon and you're the spawn of the Nephlemen and you're bad. But the fact is, only 200 of them defected. And we, we don't know how many there were to begin with. And so perhaps they are still around. And perhaps there's some that never rebelled and that they are still protecting us. But it's not the same face-to-face interaction as it was before the flood. And I also think we're at an disadvantage here in America, though I see the tide. changing where because of the scientific method and our kind of Greek stoicism and our scientific worship, we're not very open culturally to a lot of the supernatural. Where you go into other countries where they are open-minded to that, they see a lot more than we do and they interact with these beings a lot more than we do. They know more about them.

They also, for the most part, know enough to not conjure them and interact with them you know, they know, okay, these things are dangerous. And so I think we have a lot to learn from cultures that have embraced more of an ability to comprehend the supernatural. I like that. You hit a lot there. Yeah. You hit portals and politis.

We got some Enoch. Yep. Mount Herman. That's a nice little mixing bowl. We put it all in there. Yeah. If you listen to our show from the beginning, our listeners know all those things. and we've we've dove down those rabbit holes quite a bit.

But I think, I think Luke, correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's the first time anyone has said Bigfoot is like a protector. It is. Of people. So I like, yeah.

And it makes sense because we hear those stories. Yeah, yeah. There's like saving kids and stuff. Like so there are like other ones where they're not so kind. But that's always been always been the rub and been hard to sort of, as Nate and I can go through this is that sometimes it's, it seems like Bigfoot's benevolent.

And like, you know, people say that could be like a deception or no, you don't know. But there is also the weird stories about the big guy doing like helpful things. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. The ones in particular are the ones with like little kids go missing in the woods and they're gone for three days in sub-zero temperatures. And this bear creature took care of them for three or four days. I mean, I've read that probably 10 times since I got into the Bigfoot thing. And you're like, what kind of mean,

creature takes a kid and then brings it back. But then there's other ones where the Bigfoot supposedly just attacks these camps and rips people apart. So yeah. I know, I know. There's so many onion layers to it. And I think since writing this book, the verse I've quoted over and over and over again with all the people who've asked me questions or sent me emails is I just keep taking them back to First John, test the spirits to know whether they are from God. Because as we know, there are a lot of entities in the astral realm that present themselves as spirit guides and as lovers and his friends. And they give all sorts of information and people report that they were filled with love and light. And they've never felt so much love before.

And but then on the other hand, what's so fascinating to me about scripture is we have many examples in scripture where people meet an angelic being. A messenger comes down, usually with some sort of prophetic event or glad type. And so we know these are third heaven entities being sent by God. They're friends of humanity. And yet almost all of them, the first things out of their mouth, fear not. And we have people collapsing and fainting and trembling and being sick for weeks after these encounters. And so I was trying to tell people, if you're going solely on your emotion after interacting

with one of these second or third heaven entities or whatever they are, we can't just go off of our emotion because we've all read enough of those UFO abductees stories where they'll say they had total control over my visual cortex. They had control over my emotion. Some people report when they're in the presence of these things having just euphoric like feelings, some of them almost even to the level of orgasm. We hear this all the time with the UFO abductees. And so if we know for a fact that these things to some degree have control over our, emotions and our brain chemicals and our dopamine, then to solely decide whether or not an entity from another dimension or plane or reality is good or bad based upon whether or not we were

scared or we were filled with some sort of loving feeling is just the peak of foolishness. And so I tell anybody who's interested in these paranormal topics, you got to read and study and meditate on and memorize the book of First John. Because First John was actually written after Revelation. It was one of the last books, if not the last book, First and Second, Third John, that John wrote. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

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Book direct at storeshotales.com. So everything that John wrote in the book of First John, he was informed of all those visions he saw in Patmos. So he had seen the end of the world, and he'd seen these creatures and the beast and the woman and the stars and those seals and the trumpets. And so when he is saying, okay, this is the last message I'm going to give to planet Earth before I die and my pen goes silent. And the message he had for humanity was test the spirits.

There's many Antichrist. There's liars. There's false prophets. Test the spirits. This is how you know whether something's from God. That was the message. And so it's as relevant today, if not more, as it was back then. In fact, I think it's fascinating that thousands of years ago, that was the most relevant topic.

as well, that there are angelic entities parading around as angels of light who know how to mimic light and love, who have messages of peace and hope and will answer all your questions and solve your problems and who will be your companion and they are straight up evil. So we got to learn how to test the spirits. I'm glad to call that out because that is the new age deception, right and it needs to be called out because it's it's the you know the ayahuasca DMT these people that go and they access spiritual realm and have these what they consider be very positive experiences that is the allure right they they people are it's follow your heart and it's funny because the bible says their heart is the is the wellspring of all evil right like this idea that that that

that we can be manipulated by by in you name you called it out spirit guides and the and these counters these entities that it seemed to have a positive lasting thing and And I think that's one of the big deceptions. It's also, interestingly enough, some of the deception that we get in sort of in the alien narrative, Nate, like when we, you know, I think about when we talk to Scott Walter about, and he was saying, oh, there are friends. They're here. They're here to help us. It's the whole, like, almost ancient alien thing. Like, they are our helpers.

Right? And it's like, man, this is all bad. Well, that reminds me kind of what you brought up in the beginning. And I want to talk a little bit more about that before we're jumping to sleep paralysis topic is just like these wall. watchers that they were here to help us. So one question is, what do you think the watchers specifically were doing? And secondly, if you do test the spirits, what do you do? What do you ask them? I mean, let's get real down to the basics here. Do you ask him, like, is Jesus your father or what? And most people don't, I don't know if people ever actually have a moment where they can and ask these

entities a question that bold. But is that what we do? Yeah, that's a tough one too because I mean, I strongly discourage interacting with these things. First of all, they're liars. You know, their father, Satan is a liar from the beginning. And I remember in high school, a friend of mine coming to me on Monday morning and she'd been at some slumber party. And they had dabbled with a Ouija board. And she was all excited because they had asked the Ouija board, because it was like

three couples. It was three girls and three boys. And they were all like dating each other. And they had asked the Ouji board, will all of us be married after high school? and the Ouija board had said yes. And so she was so excited because it meant that her boyfriend was going to propose to her. And I said, well, did you specify, will we all be married to each other? Or did you just say, well, we all be married after high school?

And she's like, well, we just said, well, but he knew what I meant. And I'm like, they're tricksters. They're not going to tell you the truth. And so I made just this wild prophetic statement. I said, I'll bet you anything. You don't marry him because I don't trust those things. And it was funny because all three of those couples got married shortly after high school, none of them to each other. And so we don't know if we're going to get anything you ask one of these things.

It's a crapshoot whether or not they're telling you the truth. And so, I mean, it would behoove them to tell you the truth because the more they can tell you information with accuracy, the more they're going to look legit, the more they're going to look powerful, the more they're going to look trustworthy. but where this question gets really complicated in today's era is, I think back in the 50s and the 60s, there was this little litmus test that if you had, you know, sleep paralysis or an astral experience, you would, you know, and they were presenting themselves as, I'm an angel or I'm a spirit guide,

that you would have to say something like, proclaim with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. And they would, oh, I can't do it. And then, you know, it was just like, now I know it is, but I'm sorry to be controversial, but these guys are liars. And especially now that you get into the realm of all of these fake Jesus and these New Age Jesuses and these astral Jesuses and you can get all the way into the etymology of the word Lord and the Canaanite roots of it meaning Beal.

And so technically, because they are tricksters, any of them could say Jesus is Lord because they could say, well, our Lord is Bail and Jesus is this new age entity that we've now claimed and named Jesus. And so even if you say to one of these things, proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, I don't know that my definition, my biblical definition of Jesus is their definition. Because we know even going into the Mormon Church, their concept of Jesus is much different than an evangelical Jesus. And so I think that a evil entity could probably easily say Jesus is Lord because in that entity's mind, they can mean something different. Because as we've seen with other things going on in our country right now, and I think this is actually a Marxist philosophy, if you want to control of people, change their language. You manipulate the language. And you get things to not mean what they really need anymore.

And I'm an English major, so I'm a grammar nerd. and I love words and the etymology of them. And I tend to be very hyper vigilant with what things mean. And I'm to the point where I don't even like this pop culture mentality where we now have words that mean the opposite of what you really mean. Like, oh, that's bad, which means it's good. And like, oh, I haven't talked to you in a minute. And that means 10 years.

And I know it's just like we're trying to be cool. We're trying to be hip. But what I was trying to convince people, especially Christians of is our communication device with God Almighty, who's a pretty hard being to get our minds around because of our sin and our fallen nature and because of how much has been corrupted and the deception that's out there. This word of God is the only chance I've got to try to understand this God. So if you're now telling me that I have to relearn the English language and I've got to learn a new language, like some cool little hip language. I'm going to stick with the English language, because as much as I can understand my language is as much as I'm going to be able to unpack the Word of God. And so the more and more and more and more we dumb down the Word of God, and we have all these little, you know, translations that just completely pith the history and the culture and the context and the geography and the language

out of the original context. We're getting further and further and further away from ever being able to grasp what those words really say. And so I don't know if there's this perfect little litmus test, getting back to your question, where we're going to be able to, when we test the spirits, I don't think that that testing is something that we do between the entity. We do that testing with the Holy Spirit. We go to the Holy Spirit. We're asking the Holy Spirit to communicate to us. We're asking him to communicate through the Word of God, through the counsel of others. And like what we're doing right now dialogue and fellowship with other believers who have studied to show themselves approved and we're matching things up with doctrine. And so when we test the spirits, that's not

something that we're doing with the evil. That's something that we're doing with the good. We go to the people we can trust for the truth. And I'll give you just a very recent example. I got an email recently from someone saying, I have an angel who has come to me and ask for help. and they were talking about crystals. I've conjured this angel with these crystals, and I helped a little girl pass from the afterlife into her new reincarnated body. And now that they know I have this gift, they want to use me and help them shuttle all of these confused souls into their next reincarnated self. And so the way I answered is I just, I took three parts of scripture.

And I said, well, first let's talk about who has the keys to death and Hades and who has the right to shuttle souls in other dimensions to the places they need and want to go. And let's talk about crystals and let's talk about crystal balls and divination. Now let's look at all the verses that talk about divination. And now let's look at all the verses that talk about reincarnation. And so I basically didn't say, and I don't ever tell people how to think, but I just had three lists of, of the verses. This is what it says about divination. This is what the word says about reincarnation. This is what the word says about who has the keys. And I never got a response back. But that's the way we test the spirits. If someone is coming to us from another dimension and saying,

I'm here on behalf of God, is the mission that they're giving us a biblical mission? Or is it self? Or is it something that's promoting the evil agenda? And so these are the ways that I test the spirits is I always just go to the word of God. And it's surprising to me, but no matter how modern we get and how far away we stray away from the culture and the society that that word was originally written. And it's still so much relevance for what we're, what we're doing today, because in the same way that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, Satan's the same yesterday, today, and forever, not because he's eternal, not because he's sovereign, but because he's got one agenda and one line. The same thing he told Adam and Eve. You can be as the gods.

It's the same line. He hasn't even changed his line. You can have Christ consciousness. You can ascend. You can become a higher vibrational being. It's the same exact line. He's extremely predictable. One thing I was thinking when you were saying all this is like the personhood of Christ is so important to understand. You know, Christ being the son of God, the creator outside of time. And I think that, you know, when we've talked to guys like Dr. Michael Heiser on this show, he says, you know, the personhood of Jesus has always been attacked throughout history. And one way you can test the spirits is I think understanding sort of the biblical, the hierarchy of characters, you know, and I think that that's what we do on blurry creatures. We kind of, we, we kind of throw out a

catalog of what are these creatures are, where they come from. And just who Christ is has really grown in my mind since doing this podcast for two years. And I don't, I think there's some things that were, I grew up hearing and I just didn't understand like, yeah, Jesus is the creator. And I'm like, well, no, he created all this and all these entities and all this, all these things that are going on. And, and there is this deception of fracturing him into a thousand different pieces to trying to get you on some other rabbit hole of who he is and who God says he is. And this is my son, you know, who I'm well pleased. And I think that for whatever reason, you know, as a grown man, It's like, how come I didn't really have a concept of like a real foundational understanding of who Jesus is and why he's the Savior and what he's saving us from?

So all great stuff. Thanks for, thanks for diving into the weird. Think about Nate. This is what comes to mind is Talladega nights where he says, I like to think of my Jesus, you know, is the giant angel wings. And he's the lead vocals for Leonard Skinnerd and an angel band and I'm in the front row. And I say that as a joke, but at the same time, that is the symptom of our society where people have decided that they're going to remake Jesus in their image. Is it woke Jesus? Is it, well, my Jesus does do this or does do this or my Jesus validates this and not that.

And I think it's super important. Like you were saying, and piggybacking up with Vicki was saying that we just understand who, you know, who Jesus is. and we have the Holy Spirit. We've been given the Holy Spirit for what you're saying for that discernment. And I just find that fascinating. But I kept thinking, man, Taldegging Nights. I got to, we like movie quotes on the show. We had to drop that in there.

But I think this is a good backdrop for you to talk a bit about, you know, about your book. Because as you said in the beginning, you spent 15 years researching this. And like Nate had said, the beginning, that's the top. We haven't talked specifically about sleep paralysis. This is a common thing. Like, common enough that you're saying. saying that you're hearing all kinds of stuff from people one. But one of the things is that it's been allegedly that, you know,

it's always the whole thing. The science is settled, right? It's the idea that there's a scientific thing for it. And, you know, it's not really something sitting in your chest. And I think people have experienced it. I know I have at least once or twice had like this thing where you can't breathe. You can't get out and you're trying, you know in your spirit you've got to get out the name of Jesus and you can't get it out.

Like it's terrifying. I mean, to call night terror. as you sleep paralysis all the above. But I'm really excited to hear you talk about what's really going on here. Because like Nate said, one of the things we do with the show as well is we look for the truth, right? We're looking for better answers to questions that maybe people don't really like to ask or the church doesn't ask or dances around, right? Because a lot of times they're scared. And a lot of times they challenge your paradigm.

If you draw on a little fence around your faith, people don't want to get outside of that because you have to start spending your mind to think about, things that to the irony in that to me is that is the things that you say john that that are that our church fathers and the ancients thought about and it was almost a daily reality it was a daily reality or the supernatural was reality yeah absolutely as the crispy chicken sandwich from 7-11 people always call me loud and i'm like yeah i know i'm crispy did you expect me to whisper if you want quiet go eat some soup and reflect like i know i'm a handful i'm bold i'm jude See, throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4.

Quiet. No. Krispy, saucy, and $4? Very. Only at 711. Valley 36, 2326, participating stores only while supplies last see out for full terms. So this is an extremely triggering topic to use a cultural buzz term. I love triggering it so descriptive.

But it's really triggering for everybody because on one hand, it triggers the new age people, because I'm stepping on toes. I'm saying this isn't the great, wonderful, like, answer to life's existence that you think it is. Be careful. It's triggering to Christians. Despite how supernatural everything in the Bible is, there is a lot of fear when paranormal topics come up. But it's also very triggering to the people who have had sleep paralysis, and I walk this journey myself, there's a point where when you start to realize, okay, wait, that wasn't just nightmares. Oh, I wasn't just have a stressful job or I didn't

just eat spaghetti too close to bedtime there. Like when you start to realize, okay, wait a minute, I was legit, this helpless five-year-old kid alone in a dark bedroom facing a demonic entity. Are you kidding me? So it's one of those like in hindsight when you realize what it really was, it becomes terrifying. So with that said, it can be very triggering to people who have even, he even would agree with me. Like, I know this exists and I know it's real because I've had it. It's also triggering because sometimes people are not ready to really evaluate why is it happening to me and what's it about and how do I get rid of this? So the reason why I wrote the book, because I could have just done this for my own, and we've already touched upon it.

And that is that I'm starting to see this terrifying inability within the church where people have very classic astral encounters with these entities. And they come to church on Sunday so excited because they had a Holy Spirit encounter. and this kind of inability to tell the difference between second and third heaven encounters. And so what started to really spook me was if we can't tell the difference in our bedrooms between a second and a third heaven encounter, are we as a whole, as a body of believers, going to understand when the false Jesus comes back, are we going to be able to tell the real guy from a false guy? And we know from scripture that it's going to be such a convincing delusion that even the

elect if that was possible, would fall for it. So in other words, we also, apart from the Holy Spirit, would be so convinced by this false Jesus. And so I just think that it is so important that we test the spirits. We have to be in the word. We have to know the word. It's not enough anymore to just go to church on Sundays, listen to someone else's research, the results of someone else's time and research and devotions. We have to have a personal relationship and more than just praying a prayer and going to church and listening to Caleb, you know, or I don't smoke and swear, you know, like we have to graduate beyond the youth group definition of what it means to be a Christian, you know, when we're in youth group and we're teenagers, we're told, don't drink, smoke, have sex.

And like, as long as you don't do those three things, you're saved. And walking in intimacy with Christ isn't about two or three things that we don't do anymore. It's about all. whole transformational lifestyle. It's dying to the old man, living this whole new set apart existence. And that's the thing that I think a lot of people are missing in this is that a lot of this paranormal stuff, one way or the other, it's a transformational experience. Anyone that has had a lot of these supernatural experiences, they don't just brush themselves on and move on with their life. Many of them, because they're terrified, will come to a deeper and deeper clinging to Christ and they'll, you know, cast off the things in their life

that they think are causing this and they're closing doors. But for other people, it intrigues them and they become very interested in the paranormal and in ghost hunting and in psychic abilities and learning how to astral project. There's not too many people I know who've experienced this like repeatedly. You know, there's people where, oh, I think it happened to me once. You know, I'm talking about the people who have been harassed by this, a big deal of their life. It is impossible not to be transformed by this. It affects you at a soul level.

And even though I was raised in church and, you know, went to Bible college and got my little Bible degree and, you know, all that stuff, at the same time, there was this tangible war for my flesh and for my affections and for my heart. Because at the same time that I was growing up trying to pursue Christ and pursue the word, I had this extremely dark street. in me that I was always fighting with. And so it was always this desire to listen to the heavy metal music and to go to the metal concerts and wear all the skull t-shirts and the black nail polish and like the whole, like, goth came a little bit after me back, back when I was young, there was no goth. You were just, you were a metal head kind of a thing. And there was always this, there was this war between wanting to be a really devout,

upright follower of Jesus, but then this desire to just be dark. And it was just constantly at war. And I think it took me a long time to figure out that all of those sleep paralysis experiences influenced my personality. Because when you're seeing these things in your bedroom every night and you're familiarizing yourself with them, what's scary at first? Then there's a curiosity. And then there's like, well, what is this?

And then there's almost like, why are they coming after me and not everybody else? Like, you know, there's something special about me. And so there's all these layers and levels. of processing, why are these things targeting me? And so you almost kind of embrace it. Like, well, I'm familiar with all of these dark things. So maybe I'm dark. And it took me a long time to clean all that garbage out of my life. And I kind of thought once I clean all this stuff up and I close all the doors, then all this is going to go away and everything's going to be great. But even after having, you know, done all the cliche things, you know, you have your little bonfire, you get rid of your metal music and, you know, you pray all your Mason ancestor prayers and you get rid of all your souvenirs from overseas, you know, you do all the things.

The fact of the matter is, this is a war. And we, Ephesians 612, I mean, it's the most concise to the point verse that sums up everything going on. it's a cosmic war. Our enemies live in the heavenly places. They live in the astral. Their principalities, their powers, there's wicked forces. There's evil rulers. And so what I get out of that is the people that live in the heavenly places, the astral are our enemies.

We're at war with them. And second of all, there's a whole roster of these things, you know, because a lot of people get mad at me because I won't say demon, demon, demon, demon, demon, demon. And believe, believe, believe, demons are involved. believe those things that show up in the bedroom. Absolutely. Absolutely, this is demonic. Even atheists who don't even believe in God and things like that have told me, it's demonic. Like, what do you even mean by that? But I kind of ascribe to the Michael Heiser train of thought, and he didn't come up with this. This is in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's in Enoch. It's in a litany of Jewish literature that the demons are the disembodied souls of the Nephilim. And so in the astral,

there are all sorts of things in the astral that we know aren't specifically the disembodied souls of the Nephilim. And even if demon has a broader scope than the disembodied soul, maybe they're also fallen angels or there are also something else. The fact is in the astral realm, we have ascended masters, which I kind of liken unto modern day gibbering like Nimrodi, became a gibbering. These ascended masters, they were in a human form at one point and they ascended to this sort of other state. You kind of mentioned that a minute ago. Sorry to butt in, but you were talking about the second and third heaven. And I think that our listeners, I mean, I kind of think I know what you're saying, what you're saying there. But can you explain that a little bit more and see if that fits into this?

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, second and third heaven, those phrases aren't used in scripture. And so it does trigger a lot of Christians like you're making stuff up. But where I get it from is we have to differentiate the heavenly places in Ephesion 612. from the heaven that we would talk about as Christians because the throne room of God where he sits on his throne and the seraphim are there saying, holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty, day and night. And there's the seven spirits of God, the menorah flaming before his throne and its holiness.

And we've got, you know, all the gemstone floor and the rainbow over his throne. This is the throne room. This is the holy throne room of God where he meets out justice. and fulfills all of the unfurling of prophetic and redemptive history. Like, this is a holy place. This is the presence of God is in this place. So when you read something like Ephesians 612, and you read about enemies of God who are evil

and they're rulers and dark forces and principalities, and then it says, who lives in the heavenly places? If you think that those heavenly places are heaven, now there's all sorts of doctrinal error that can come in because you can now you can take the you know the occult law reversal where satan it was really jesus and jesus was Satan and that serpent the garden was trying to free adam and eat from the thought construct that god had them you know all all that stuff and so if we have any confusion between the heavenly places where god has his throne in the heavenly places where all these evil things are crawling around, you can seriously contort

doctrine and say, well, then if all of these demons are crawling around in heaven, then they must be good guys. And so when I talk to them, I can trust them and they're great. And we're all on the same side. And so second and third heaven is just a human way of differentiating for the sake of doctrinal accuracy that there is a heaven, which is another dimensional realm that God lives in. and then there's a heaven that's a dimensional realm that these enemies of God live in. And it's more complicated than just demons in the heavenly places. Ephesians 612 mentions four categories. And we know there's more because there's humans crawling around up there too.

There's astral projectors and spirit guides and ascended masters. So for the people that need the chapter and verse for everything, and I'm not mocking that, we're all supposed to be good Breans. But for me, saying demon is it's not, it's one fast, facet of the diamond. So if I'm holding a three-dimensional diamond with 50-some facets on it, and I tell you there's one facet, then there's 50-some facets you're not ever going to be warned of. And so, yes, it is demonic. Yes, there are demons involved. Absolutely. But to just say that there's not a myriad of other supernatural entities out there. And we have to know our

enemy. I mean, even what Sun Zhao said, you've got, you're never going to win a war if you don't know your enemy. And so I understand why this is triggering for the church because we want to give all glory to God. We want to give the attention and the focus to him. We want to we want to talk about his glory and his goodness and his plan and his righteousness. And we don't want to unwittingly give glory to the enemy. But at the same time, we are supposed to expose the deeds of the devil. We are called to do that. And there is so much that the enemy has gotten away with for thousands. thousands of years solely based on our ignorance of what's going on. Yeah, I think second, third heaven to me just sounds like realms, right?

You talk about realms in the kingdom and in the kingdom of heaven is a place where you probably don't, you're not going to have the sort of the creepy, crawly nasties cruise around, but they exist in the spiritual realm, whatever you want or the spiritual space. That was good, Nate. I was going to ask the same thing. I was also going to ask, like, just on a very baseline, if you could just tell us about sleep paralysis. What is it generally considered? And then like what was the experience? What is the

experiences for you? And then what is the experiences for the people in your research had? Because I know there's going to people who listen to our show that are going to be able to identify with some of this because we probably all have some sort of familiarity with this. But you know, kind of you are an English person, right? So sort of defining what that, what that is and that experience is like. And then maybe what it was you did mentioned, you had a number of experiences curious about those. And then also curious about some of the things people told you. And then kind of just, you know, the interplay in that when it came to unwrapping this entire topic. As we all know, there's tons of disinformation online about what this is.

There's a lot of gaslighting on this topic. There's a lot of poo-pooing of it. And I try to really have every aspect of it in my book. What I really believe are modern culture's propensity to absolutely separate and vilify science from spirituality. is doing harm to both sides because we are going to, as Christians, really not understand a lot of the sleep paralysis experience if we're completely ignorant of our own physiology and the aspects of our physiology that these entities are capitalizing on to make a more terrifying experience, whereas science is going to miss the vote as to motive and how to help people that suffer from this.

So it's important to have both the medicine and the mystery put together. And I go at length in the book. I talk a lot about how antiquity the houses of healing were temples that their medicine and spirituality were absolutely inseparable. And we even see it in the Torah. And we even see it when Jesus healed people. Luke is a doctor, right? He's got a doctor on his own entourage.

And he's like, well, let's get a second opinion from Luke. Let's make sure that leprosy's gone. No, he would send him with the temple, according to the Torah, and the high priest would declare whether or not he was really healed or not. And so there was always, within the context of the Bible and without culturally, there was always a melding of the two. And so I talk a lot in the book about the cult of Asclepius and the Asclepians, the first and second century of Sclepians. Galen, the super surgeon of the second century, who kind of ran the Asclepion in Pergamon, which is super interesting because we know from Revelation that Pergamon was the seat of Satan. Pergamon was where the throne of Satan was.

And Antipas, the faithful martyr who is martyred in 130 years before Galen gets on the scene, he was killed because he was healing people in the name of Jesus for free. And the Asclepians, which was like the big farm of the day, they were making tons of money off of bringing these people in, sedating them. It was very, very much like you mentioned earlier, ayahuasca and D&T, it was very much like that. They would be heavily sedated. Then they would wander around in these underground catacombs until they were high and dizzy and confused. used and disoriented. And then they would sleep in these underground catacombs with snakes crawling over them all night. And because they were high, they would be in an altered state of

consciousness. They would astral project and they would meet with entities in the second heaven who very often would tell them, this is what you've got and this is how to cure it. And so they would wake up. They would tell the high priest slash doctor, this is what you have to do to cure me. and they would, you know, do what they needed to do. And very often, very often, the people were cured because these entities in the, in the astral realm are smart enough to know if you want to look and act like God, you heal people, right? And so they would then take gold and silver and they would fashion, they would mold out of this gold and silver, the body part that got healed. And that would be the payment for this. So these high priests were making a lot of money.

So when Antipas came in for free and was healing people in the name of Jesus, because he wouldn't recant and offer an offering to Zeus, he was burned alive. And so all sorts of interesting things there. So I do try to explain in the book that scientists, you have to understand that there's a supernatural realm and there is a demonic element to this experience. But by the same token and religious people, you need to understand that there is a demonic element. physiological aspects to this. So when we're in altered states of consciousness, whether it's drifting in and out of sleep, whether it's drugs, whether it's alcohol, whether it is deep relaxation or meditation techniques, it can even be rage, like extreme rage, hypnosis, and even sexual pornography, masturbation, things like that, where you are in, even if it's just seconds of some

sort of elation or where you're in that altered state of consciousness, we're vulnerable in those states. And so I don't think it's one of these situations where the experience feels like these entities are causing this paralyization or they're sitting on you and that's why you can't move. But the fact of the matter is when you're in this altered state of consciousness, you're just naturally, by nature of your physiology, there's a portion of our sleep cycles where we are paralyzed. And it's there for our protection. We do this so that we don't act out our dreams. So we're not kicking our spouse or we're not sleepwalking into traffic or we're not wet in the bed.

Right. So what they do is they just capitalize on the most opportune time because we're defenseless. We're not really awake. And there's all sorts of arguments as to whether or not you're awake, you're asleep, you're both or you're in the astral. And that's also very triggering to people because every. Everybody has their idea of what's happening to them. I had an aha moment when I saw the Matrix moving the first one years ago.

When Neo is in, is in the hotel, and he sees the cat in the cat loops. And they're like, it's a glitch in the matrix. So that cat looping tipped them off to the fact that they were in the matrix, right? And what I noticed about my sleep paralysis experiences that I never had an answer for was, I always thought I was awake because I could see my room. So clearly my eyes are open and I must be awake. But for those people who have had sleep paralysis enough times and it's long enough of an experience and are cognizant enough to like look around and test the things that they have thought about

when the experience isn't happening is there's always a glitch in the bedroom. So the hotel room or the living room or the bedroom, the recliner, wherever you're sleeping, If you look, if you have the wherewithal, amidst all the fear and everything else going on, to look, you will find something in that room that does not line up with your real room. The door will be on the wrong side. It'll be on the wrong wall. You'll be on a couch instead of a chair or I had one person right to me and say, I actually, as this thing was like aggressing against me and the bed was moving,

my headboard was slamming against the wall. And then they said, when I woke up, I realized, I don't have a head warrant. What was that? And so I don't know if it's an overlay. I don't know if we're in the astral. I don't know if they're taking over the visual cortex. But I know that every time I've had sleep paralysis,

I wake up with my eyes glued shut thinking, I'm not gonna open my eyes, I don't wanna see anything. I'm not gonna open my eyes, don't wanna see anything. So my experience, and this is not to say that there aren't other things going on, but in my experience, I am not awake with my eyes open,

looking at my bed. I am not awake with my eyes looking at my bedroom. I am not awake with my eyes looking at it. There's giveaways in the room that it's not accurate, and I wake up with my eyes squeezed shut. And so I think that there's just still a lot that we don't know. Another thing I've been kind of exploring lately, and I think Jim Wilhelmson and Alvarino, Tim Elberino,

touch on this as well. And this is one of those things we were talking about earlier where it can be triggering to people who have sleep paralysis because the more we find out, sometimes the things we find out, it's like, I don't know if I'm ready for that. This is getting to be too much. But one of the things that Alvarino says, and I'm very intrigued by this, is he says that the experience feels like that the moment this sleep paralysis comes on, people become afraid and they see, Jesus, Jesus, get out. in the name of Jesus, get out, and then it stops. And they're like, phew, that was over. That was only a couple minutes. I'm glad that's over.

What he's saying, and it matches the research of Jim Wilhelmson, Wilhelmson says that sleep paralysis, similar to UFO encounters, is an abduction experience. But instead of a UFO for experimentation, you're being abducted into the astral. And I do claim that in my book, too, that it's an abduction experience. But what Albarino was saying is that what's happening is a lot of people when they're crying out to Jesus, they think that it's at the front end of the sleep paralysis experience and then they're staving it off. But what might actually be happening is you've been in the astral.

You have no memory of it. And when you come back into your body after that experience and you start to come into consciousness and you start saying, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, that that's actually the. end of the encounter and that there might not be a memory of what actually just happened to you. And I'm not saying this to scare people. And believe me, when I first started coming across this information, it was frightening to me. I'm like, so even more has happened to me. And I don't even know it. It's very off-putting. But I think why it's important to consider this as a possibility is because in spiritual warfare, when we want to close doors and we want to, um,

undue or reverse covenants that we perhaps made with these entities, if we have no knowledge that that's happened, we're not ever going to cover that in prayer. We're not ever going to close those doors because we're not going to ever understand. And so that's something that I'm kind of exploring recently. But I think that all of us who have experienced this, we have to just understand there are many different sleep paralysis experiences. And even those of us that have had many of these experiences, we don't know everything that's possible in this scenario. So some people will say, I saw a shadow man. Some people see an old hag. Some people don't see anything at all. Some people get dragged to a window. Some people have an out-of-body experience. Some people

see technological things. They see lights and fiber optics. And it's more technological hallucinations. And some people hear voices and some don't. And some people see little fairies crawling up and down their bodies. And so I think where sleep paralysis experiences have to support one another is we're not in competition to see who's figured it out. And we're not in competition like who's had the more scary experience. And I think that when we run into someone who has also experienced it and their experiences wildly different than ours, then rather than saying like, well, you don't know what you're talking about. what we need to say is, I need the piece of the puzzle that you have because the more of us

that get together and put our little pieces on the table, we're going to be able to put a picture together. The whole thing about the Matrix is fascinating. It just makes you think like what's, you know, what's really happening here? And oftentimes we, Nate, we've talked about before, like the idea that there's something that happens when you sleep, that you are more connected, susceptible. I don't know what it is to the spiritual realm because we know that, like, biblically speaking, God speaks people in dreams.

and prophetically your sons and daughters of dreams and visions, right? There's this something about that state that opens us up. But I just find that fascinating. And it can't help but think about trying to connect some of these dots to like even the abduction phenomenon because it does sound so familiar. Well, it also lines up with a lot of what we just, the episode we're releasing this week, actually. He talks a lot about that. This guy, Dan, Dan of all, I know you've heard any of his work talks about the difference between sin and inequities. and they're looking for something in the DNA.

And he was also talking towards the end of the episode about some sort of screened AI overlay where these entities can almost recreate, like, sounds like a bedroom and you think you're in it. And he was talking about a lot of these things. And he also said earlier kind of what you were talking about just how vast the kingdom of darkness is and what they can do or where they come from.

So nothing you're saying isn't, it's actually very timely. because we just kind of talked about a lot of these subjects. And this week we're releasing that episode, and I'm sure it's going to create a bunch of people, members of the show, chatting about their thoughts on all of that. But I was thinking the same thing about the abduction phenomenon, how it sounds similar.

But it sounds like those people maybe have some sort of blood iniquity that allows them to move them, maybe out of a dream state, into an actual craft. That's really interesting that you mentioned that, Nate, because I was recently talking to a friend of mine, very knowledgeable in these sorts of things because he's an SRA survivor,

satanic ritual abuse from generational Satanism. And so I was talking about how, you know, what gives these things the right to drag us into the astral? Like, I mean, we're all sinners. And in fact, we all have open doors. So how come this isn't happening to everybody? And like, why certain people, why is this? Like, how are they targeting? And so along those lines, he was talking about how in order for them, and whether that is an occultist or someone with black magic, which is like, because they're like remote viewers, like this technology has been militarized, like they know how to get bodies, soul bodies out into the astral. But he said, you actually need DNA to do it. And so I said, well, obvious question.

I guess, where are they getting the DNA? And so he did say that for a lot of people, they're getting it in the hospital when you're born. You know, it's a perfect opportunity for them because it's a whole bunch of babies who are unattended by their parents for those few days before they get brought home. And so I thought it was interesting

because Russ Dizdar talked too about, he tells a story about a militarized remote viewer who was coming into his bedroom a few nights. And so Russ, Russ was trying to figure out. Like he knew it was militarized because he recognized the guy. He knew the guy. And so this is another thing, too.

Some people have sleep paralysis, but it's not an entity. It's an actual human being. And in many cases, it's someone they recognize. It's a neighbor or it's a co-worker or something. And a lot of times when that's happening, it's a clue that you're probably being remote viewed rather than a sleep paralysis thing. But what Russ said was that as he was praying in fact, through like, how do I get this guy to stop remote viewing and coming into my bedroom at night,

that he concluded that he had to cast out the demon that was basically providing the, the demon was the coattails that this guy was riding in on, so to speak. And so the second or third time this happened, he called out in the name of Jesus, but he actually spoke the actual name of this entity that he believed was revealed to him after the brain and fasting. And he said, episode stopped in a split second and that the guy actually approached him after that. Like, dude, what did you do?

Like, all of a sudden, I lost my power and I was back. Like, what happened? And so Russ told him what he had done. And the guy, this is just a military guy, was shocked because everything in his training, he had been taught. This is just something that you do. You tap into the brain. And it's all Monroe Institute and Hemisink and Robert Monroe.

ruin. It's all like something like psychic ability. So when the military guy actually found out that this was something spiritual and that that was actually a demon enabling that gift that he had, I think it actually spooked him as well. So whether it's DNA or it's a demonic ritual, you know, if someone has to actually do a ritual to get this done, they need a blood sample. It's all the same. It's blood. It's DNA. It's blood. And so I go into Langell. length in the book about the similarities between sleep paralysis entities and our modern, supposedly fictional vampire lore, because I do believe that what's going on here, I do believe it is a type of a blood covenant. It's a type of a threshold covenant. And these things are ancient.

And again, these entities are capitalizing on our ignorance because we have long forgotten these ancient traditions. We still have hints of them in our culture here. When we do a handshake, like for a deal, that goes back to old threshold covenants where they would slaughter an animal and the two people who are going to covenant with each other would dip their hands in the blood and then they'd shake hands. And so now we just, we do the handshake, but it's a carryover from these ancient threshold covenants. And so I do think that what is happening in the astral, whether we remember it or not, is by way of invitation, we're letting these shadow people or whatever they are over the threshold into our bedroom.

And they've been invited to do so. Now we're incovenant with these things. And so the issue isn't just, well, if I say Jesus, they go away. Because again, if Alvarino is right, that's going to throw an entire wrench in this easy band-aid fix. Anytime you have sleep paralysis or a UFO abduction, just say, call in the name of Jesus and it'll stop like that. If Alvarino's right, it doesn't matter if it stops.

it's our damage has been done what just happened in astral what covenant was made who am i now bound to what sort of attachments am i taking back to the physical with me so it's a much much more serious issue than i played with the Ouija board once when i was 15 or i listened to heavy metal music or smoke in the weed you know isn't that these are actual betrothal like covenants that are going on in the astral and we just have to take them i think a lot more seriously than we have before. And I'm seeing this trend now on the internet with like learn how to get sleep paralysis, learn an auto body experience, learn how to astroject. And people are intrigued by this and they think it's going to be fun or they think that they're going to, you know, some sort of like

love potion, they're going to, you know, get the, you know, guy they like, you know, whatever. We're trifling with things that we have absolutely no concept of the depth of what we're ourself into. Yeah. It sounds like people who have these gifts and really go into it and understand it, they move from a state of defense, which is like praying in the name of Jesus because they're in this defensive mode. They're stuck. They're fight or flight and they're just, they can only think to yell Jesus. People who go to offense and own their faith and really pray the prayers and understand exactly the war they're in. There seems to be some sort of shift. And I think Daniel spends a lot of time with SRA survivors.

teaching them how to do that. And I've read some other books of people who see in the spirit and they say they were attacked as young kids. And it wasn't until they had a shift in how they understood who Christ is in their life and in the authority that they have that these things stopped. So Daniel sounds like he has success with people who've been abducted. And then it stops when they when they really begin to understand what's going on and how to get out of that. I think sometimes we just, become Christians, we accept Christ, but we're still sort of floundering. We don't really know what we're doing. We don't really know how to operate in spiritual offense of what's coming at us. We're just sort of trying, like, hopefully it doesn't happen the night, you know? So, yeah, so Vicki Joy, how are people stopping this, right? Like, I mean, because if we're talking about Tim and we're talking about, you know, the abduction phenomena and there's power in the name of Jesus, right, to stop things. But the idea then is to stop it from, that could be a band-a- the idea is that to stop it from happening altogether to break the whatever the pattern or

close the door. I don't know, whatever you want to talk or say or talk or those sort of semantics you want to use. What have you found that like how people get out of this or unentwined in in these situations? Because it seems to target specific people. Maybe you can try some color on on who and why you think of target specific people, but also how people will get out of it because yeah this is a lot of dark stuff and i always like to need we always like to try to people hope on on all this stuff because it's it's important to know your enemy we talked about at the beginning but we are also bought and paid for by the blood of jesus and we are no longer under the curse of sin and death and so that means that we have the power through christ through the

holy spirit to authority over this stuff and and so i that is my question it's two part is is who are they who and why are they going after certain people people and how are you finding that people are able to get themselves out of these repeat sort of patterns of sleep paralysis as we're sort of talking about it? Great questions. This is really getting down to the nitty gritty. And I do chapter six of the book goes on at length about all of this as well. But I have found in my research that a lot of times with sleep paralysis as well as the

UFO abduction phenomenon, many, many times. not 100% nothing ever has a perfect category many times these are people who have had excessive amounts of childhood trauma so there was something you know big you know in the childhood and so I've also found and again this is not a 100% cut and dry but statistically a lot of the people that have the sleep paralysis phenomenon have they've had childhood trauma but the UFO abduction phenomenon many times it's specific to sexual abuse-related trauma. And we see a difference even in the end goals of both because a lot of times with UFO abduction things we, there is a lot of sexual stuff in many of the astral, the sleep paralysis, the astral experiences,

people are being spiritually transformed. They're becoming spokespeople for the new age and the ascension doctrine and the coming great awakening. And so by way of who they're targeting, I've noticed a trend in trauma, but I've also noticed, I'm speculating here, but my research is taking me towards the possibility that the people that are being targeted are of a particular bloodline or bloodlines. And so what I'm still trying to figure out is, are they trying to recruit their own? Like, you have lost touch with who you really are. You're of the Atlantean bloodline or you're the

RH bloodline. You're the reptilian bloodline. You're the Nepheline bloodline. You belong to us and you don't even understand it. But is it a taking of their own ancestry? Or, and I say, suppose it could be a combination with the two or something I haven't thought of. Is it a wanting to pollute Seth's bloodline? Like let's take the people who are of Seth's bloodline and corrupt and recruit them for for our side. And so again, I just think so much of this has to do with blood. It has to do with blood lines. It has to do with genetics. It has to do with blood covenants being made. You know, we see it in the Bible. And that never made sense to me as a kid. Like, why does everything have to do with blood? Why did an animal have to be sacrificed? Why did Jesus have?

How come with the shedding of blood there's no remission of sins? Why is it blood? And so research of sleep paralysis, I'm finding all of these breadcrumbs that lead to bloodlines, blood covenants, blood sacrifices. You know, and the trauma piece that you see in it, and this coincides with satanic ritual abuse, it coincides probably with a lot of what Dan Deval has come to discover trauma is a you know trauma based mind control is a huge part of of building this super soldier army you know this black awakening that rustedistar talks about these mk altered people and so it seems like you cannot successfully produce a trauma based mind control person soldier without the trauma and so the trauma can can happen both within and without the actual

experience of the sleep paralysis or the UFO abduction. And so, and I know that was the case with me. And one of the things that I found so fascinating in my research with a lot of my case studies of people who have had sleep paralysis since they were a tiny child and it's followed them their whole life, many of them, including myself, can point to 10, 15, 20 times in their life where they legitimately should have lost their lives, like a very near fatal accident, some sort of surgery or something that happened on the operating table. And I could tell you a bunch of them. When I was in junior high,

I went flying out of a Jeep on a freeway. And my uncle literally grabbed me in midair and like slammed me back in the car. And I was on a missions trip overseas once. And I was separated from my students. And I was surrounded by 10 men in black with swords and cried on the name of Jesus. And like they literally just dispersed. It was just the craziest thing. I've got like at least 15 of those types of stories and many people that have this.

So it's almost like these people who are being targeted are going to be taken out one way or the other, right? We're either going to transform your soul into our theology. You know, you're going to be one of us. And if not, we're going to try to get rid of you. And to your point, Nate, and you said a mouthful a minute ago, I love what you just said, because it was my experience, but I don't think I ever articulated it like that. I was a victim of this my whole life. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, terrified the next few days.

I'd be looking over my shoulder. I'd be scared it was going to happen again the next day. I'd be telling my friends, like, you know, it happened again. And like, I was just, and in fact, it bothered me because I thought, how come, even though this has happened hundreds of times, I'm just as scared now as I was, like, at what point do you, like, have a learning curve with this? And it was the same thing for me, Nate. There was a point where I was like, I'm not the victim here.

These guys have no power. I've got the name of Jesus. I can plead the blood of Jesus over the thresholds in my home and over my body. And I've got Saul 91 and I've got the Word of God and I've got worship and I've got fasting. And I've got these prayers I can pray. And as soon as I started to fight back, it doesn't happen anymore. It doesn't. Now, it doesn't mean that they're not kind of trying to find back.

doors, because they always do. But I just love the way you said that, Nate, because it's just so true. When we get emails from people who are Christians their whole lives, there's a familiar theme of people who reach out to our show. And it's that they've been in church. They've been in the faith, but there's all these things they didn't understand. And it makes me think, guys, that is this why the church just constantly focuses on just the moment of Christ's death and the crucifixion? And that's really constantly all we talk about. So we're constantly in this place of like, you know, growing up, I heard the salvation message probably a thousand times before I was, because I went to Christian school for when I was time, I was in kindergarten, so I graduated high school.

And I wonder if that is, is something that it's just, we don't, we don't really understand the story, the concept, the characters. And so we just kind of focus on this one thing, which I think is important. I think it's, I think the gospel is important. I think salvation is important. but I think it keeps Christians sort of in this state of, you know, infancy in our faith. And an infant sounds like easy prey, easy target. You can get attacked if you don't really understand the concepts of your faith. You know, and the Bible talks about, you know, getting into the, into the meat, you know, the real sustenance of what is this that we're, that we're a part of. And I wonder if I, which is kind of a lot of what we talk about in our show.

it's just like heavy topics, entities, creatures, abductions, aliens, a category of darkness. And people, they plug this into their faith. And then they email us like, whoa, I'm going to church. I'm back. I'm reading my Bible again. It's like, yeah, that's what this is. So I don't know if that's a strategy of the enemy to kind of keep people in this infant state. Because, yeah, your salvation is taking care of.

You're in the family of God again. But your life could be total hell. you could be getting attacked every single day. It doesn't mean you're not saved. It just means you're not, you're not doing anything. You're just getting arrow shot at you. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, man. You're fire on all cylinders now, Nate, because this is one of the things. So Michael Lake, I don't know if you guys have heard of Michael Lake. He's amazing. So what Lake says is, and again,

this can be triggering. So Christians, hear me out. salvation is a great thing okay and jesus did talk about salvation and he offers it to us but the gospel that he was preaching was not the gospel of salvation and all you have to do is do a word search in scripture in the new testament of the word gospel and it's almost always embedded in the phrase gospel of the kingdom he wasn't preaching a gospel of salvation in fact on time why like on the timeline that wouldn't have even made sense. This is how Jesus in the first century would have preached a modern salvation message. At some point in the future, I'm going to die on a cross. And when I raise from the

dead, it's going to trigger a period where you can start asking for forgiveness of your sins. And then you can invite me in your heart. And what he was preaching was there are two kingdoms. They're at war with each other. Right now, the kingdom of earth has been legally handed over to Satan because of fall of man. When I die, I'm going to get those keys back. And one day I'm going to come back and claim what's mine, this kingdom. When I come back to establish my kingdom, you better be on the right side. Pick a side. He was saying pick aside. Pick aside. And so the gospel of the kingdom, it doesn't negate salvation. It doesn't say that salvation isn't a piece of that. like let's talk about the diamond analogy again.

Salvation is one of the 52 facets of this gospel of the kingdom diamond. So yes, it's important and we should be teaching people to observe and telling people how to be saved. But when we reduce everything down to praying a prayer and now you're saved, we miss out on the fact that we're in a cosmic war and we're canon fodder if we don't understand what's going on. And to your point, exactly, that's great that we're saved and we go to church and we're learning all this great stuff and we're in the word and Jesus loves us. But if we're getting slaughtered by the enemy on a daily basis and we're being attacked and we're being harassed and our physiological, emotional, mental, physical and spiritual states are all being negatively and profoundly affected by the influence that these things have over us, why would we, why would we, why would we, we settle for that? Why would we settle for that when Jesus said, you know, no weapon formed against you will prosper. So what I would ask people is if these weapons are prospering against

you, something's missing in your formula. It's difficult because a lot of denominations are, they're centered around, can you lose your salvation? You can't lose your salvation. I mean, it seems like everyone is just stuck in this one moment. They're stuck at the cross. They don't move beyond the cross. And I think that, you know, you have to understand this is what led up to the cross and what comes after the cross. And everyone's just huddled around the cross all the time, constantly debating this moment in history. And we don't know anything about Genesis. We don't know anything about revelation. And we're just stuck at this one moment in time. That's how I see it. And it's not that it's not a pivotal point in history, but it's not the only part of the Bible history.

But we're stuck there. That's the only thing we can all agree on sometimes. And then at the church fractures in a million pieces because well you can't lose your salvation well you can lose your salvation and it's like well what what what are we actually fighting against what what what what kind of war are we in and what are we doing you know and it's frustrating because it just stays there and yeah and i dude i think though that that that that makes that that that moment that the cross matter that much more i think it's the context that makes it matter that much more exactly it's when it's when Jesus laid down his life to bring us, bring us back into the family of God.

But in all the things he did, like you said, Vicky, he took the keys of death and Hades. You took his victory there. And he went, you can surmise that he went and declared his victory to the, to those in prison,

to the watchers in prison and after the rebellion on Mount Herman. But, I mean, I understand in some ways why people get stuck their natives, because this is the most profound thing that by far this happened in the history of humankind. But I think what I hear is that like it just we lack a lot of the context to understanding exactly what it did. Because I think it was, we talked about this with Doug and even Mike Heiser a bit was that just it was so much more than it was our salvation and, right? It's the idea that there's so much more that also happened there that I think maybe we just,

we oftentimes stop there. Like, yeah, he died for our sense and now we're saved. Great. I mean, not great. But that's, that is the most miraculous things ever happened in the history of humankind. Yes. But it also also did a lot of other things.

And if you don't, if you don't have a typical, if you don't have the proper context for it, I think sometimes you don't understand the magnitude of that. That's all I'm saying is that we stay there because it's like we're afraid. We're sort of afraid to go, go back to Genesis and watch the, the opening five minutes,

which is the most important part of any film. It's like, okay, you know, out of this scene here in the garden, it's going to come Christ. And what's he going to do? He's going to reclaim all these things that were lost. Many things that were lost, not just our salvation, not just our airship to heaven, but all these other bloodlines that were corrupted off of other darknesses. It's just that, I just think that, you know, for me, just doing this show has made me understand so much more of like why we need a savior, what we're being saved from the multiple kingdoms

that war with each other and often how they, the darkness mirrors like you're saying, the light and they deceive so many people. This is the part where every time there's a sermon on the cross, I wish they would talk about this part. When he went down to Tarteroo for those three days and delivered like the most awesome cosmic throat punch in history to those guys, right? Yeah. took those keys back. This is the culmination of Genesis. This is the fulfillment of that prophecy

that the seed of Eve was going to crush the head of the serpent. And the fact that thousands of years went by and all this corruption and all of these things were those watchers in their little control center down in the abyss are thinking, we're winning, we're winning. This guy's asleep up there, you know, that they've probably, just thought, oh, man, he's forgotten all about that little thing in the garden. Oh, we've got this. And then all a sudden, they got them in the grave. They're like, all right, we won, we want. And then all the sudden, all the sudden, they're down there and they hear this. You know, like, what? And Jesus enters into this impenetrable fortress that no one has ever come in or out of since the day they were put there and is like,

you lose. Game over, like the fulfillment of that. And so yeah, he rose from the dead and he, you know, it's all about us. He saved me and me, me, me, me, me, me. But I think we miss the cosmic glory in the resurrection story when we don't explain that Jesus getting the keys and where he went to get them and who he took them from. That to me is that. the most mind-blowing part of the love story because it shows just the long-suffering and the patience and just the intelligence of this God who's in the background quietly weaving together the exact timing of the fulfillment of this of this promise and of this prophecy. And I just think the whole like those three that the three days in Targrew,

that's just the most supernatural, I think, part of the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we had like a, like the extended version of the passion of Christ, we would get some, we get some really wild stuff. But I, and I say all this, because so many people email our show and they feel like they're trapped and they're stuck and they can't, they don't know what to do. They're being, you know, who do I talk to, who I email? I believe in Jesus, but I'm, I'm experiencing all this stuff. And I just think that, man, for the majority of us, We don't, beyond salvation, we don't really know. We're kind of clueless.

And, you know, a lot of people debate, well, was Book of Inok a big part of that? And did that deliberately get edited out and all this other stuff that kind of comes and goes on our show? And you wonder if the goal, part of the goal of enemies to keep people in a state of naivety, not understanding. I don't say all that to say that the gospel is not important and that salvation is not important. I just think that until all the other characters were plugged in, I was like, oh, this is this is what's going on. And then my, you know, journey really understanding a lot of these things changed. And I just think that a lot of people who listen to weird shows like this and paranormal stuff and they plug in even just the idea of the nephalum, you know, this, this corrupted part of creation. And then there's this flood and there are all these stories and it leads up.

And then boom, here comes, you know, the savior on the scene. It's just a way better entrance when you understand when and why it rolls into history. So people who are experiencing sleep paralysis, I think sometimes maybe they don't understand that they have the power and all authority. And it's it's a little bit more than just yelling out the name of Jesus in a state of panic. That's all. That's really what I want to kind of hammer home. It's, it's you've got to understand. how much authority you've been given and you have to speak out of it and you have to pray out of it.

And even in my own life, you know, doing this show, there's days when it's just like, it just feels like things are coming at us, coming at me, coming at my mind, just where is this coming from? And it's like, I don't, maybe I don't even take it serious enough that we're, Luke and I are rattling on against all these topics all the time. And sometimes it feels like our personal lives is just like crazy stuff's happening. And, And I don't even know if I'm armoring my mind and my heart and my soul daily enough. All of us need to. It just makes you to realize how much more serious you have to take these things.

And it's sad that some people get abducted. And it's sad that some people get constantly terrorized. And everyone's getting terrorized in some way. It's just the weirder ones are the ones we kind of migrate towards. And we're talking about it's like sleep paralysis or abductions are probably in the top. with the list, you know, it's just strange. Why those people? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it certainly is. And, you know, I, I have a, at the very back of the book, I have this prayer mapping exercise kind of, here's a step one. Because I think a lot of us, we, you know, a lot of the emails I get,

people will self-diagnose, you know, they'll say this has been happening to me. And then they'll say, I know it's because I smoke marijuana or I know it's because I played with that Ouija Borders. I know this is because I was promiscuous in the 60s. So they'll self-diagnosed. And it's, again, not to make light of things that do legitimately open doors, but again, we have to graduate beyond the youth group definition of a pursuit of holiness, you know. And I just think we have to graduate from the milk onto the meat and realize that there are other ways. There are people out there who don't smoke pot and don't sleep around,

they haven't done ayahuasca that are, there are godly people who haven't opened up all of the cliché. doors, right, who are experiencing this. And so what are we missing? And so there's a prayer mapping exercise. I suggest at anyone, even if you think you know what has opened this door, it'll benefit you because if the enemy can keep hidden from you, the open door he has, he's obviously going to keep that hidden from you. And this isn't like a one or done thing. I'll prayer map periodically. And I'm always surprised it's sort of the banal things that come out of that. Like you always expect something like, Like, you know, your house is built on an ancient Indian burial ground. You know, like, we want some big thing.

But sometimes it's just these banal things that I'll, like, remember from, you know, childhood or something like an invisible friend I had that had like a really specific name and, you know, things like that. And so just prayer map and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you, what is the source of this experience? What is the source? and there might be more than one. And it might be a quick and easy thing. It might be a really long thing.

You know, one thing that we really have to do, whether we're going to prayer map or whether or not we just even want to research or look into these things, we're always supposed to count the cost. And after every chapter in my book, I have a page of warfare points and a cleansing prayer

because you can open doors just in having an unhealthy interest in this and getting titillated by it. And, you know, there's motives for why you should, you should study this too. And so we have to count the cost. And for those of us that have had these experiences, even prayer mapping and saying, okay, reveal to me the source, you better be prepared that that answer might not be anything you imagined. And it might be frightening. It might require sacrifice. It might require killing sin. It might require the gardener to come with

the heavenly chainsaw and start lobbing off precious branches in order to to prune you. So if you, it's kind of like if you have an alcohol addiction. It's like you're always at that point where I want free from all of the negative consequences of this, but I don't really want to be free from the alcohol because that part's fun. And so you have to get to the point where you're like, I am so sick and tired of this. I cannot stand one more David. Once you get to the point where you're like, I have got to get, I cannot live like this anymore. This is, this is destroying my spiritual walk. This is destroying my intimacy with Christ. I could have so much more depth and intimacy in this walk and so much more power over the spiritual worker aspects. And so

when you're to that point, you know, then you start to prayer map, but just understand that there are things that we haven't even tackled on shows like this before, things that haven't even been disclosed yet, the things that these entities are capable of doing by way of deception. And if the Holy Spirit comes and reveals to you something a lot more basic than all the little internet things, you know, out there, it could be, I don't want to scare people. But when I got to the point where I was like, I am going to get over this and I prayed some prayers. And I prayed an innocent little prayer one day. This was back in 2011. And I prayed and I said, you know, we always invite Jesus into our hearts. But if the mind is the battlefield and that's where

the enemy attacks us and that's where a lot of this astral stuff goes on, if the mind is kind of where it's at, don't I want Jesus up there too? And so I was just a little, oh, Jesus, come and live in my mind too. And I just thought it was this cool little Saturday morning Christian prayer. And I had a good devotions that morning, and I wrote it in my journal and went on my way. That prayer, I'm not, I am not joking when I tell you guys, that prayer, I almost lost my life getting that prayer because the warfare was so intense for so many years when I realized how much of my born-again Christian evangelical Bible degree from college mind was occupied by the enemy. How much of a stronghold. And he doesn't let go of things that he has control over. And the warfare and the

trauma and the heartaches and the brokenness that I went through to fully hand the deed of my mind over to Jesus, had he not intervened, he, the enemy would have sifted me like wheat. So tread lightly on this stuff dies. And when you prayer map and when you try to find the source of these things, just know that you are treading on uncharted waters where things that the enemy might have had in his back pocket your whole life. If that stuff starts getting taken from him, he's going to be angry. Like, you have just agitated the enemy of your soul. And he is not going to leave without a fight. So just be prepared for the fight. And Nate, to your point, we're not the victims here. So we got a sword. We've got the armor. We've got the shield. We got the word of God. We have the

name of Jesus. We have the Holy Spirit. We have an anointing. We have got everything it takes to slay this enemy. But just know that, you know, we read stuff in the Bible. Like, David took five stones and shot one. And on the first shot, the giant went down. And it was, you know, it makes it sound like it was such a simple little thing. And God did all the work. But God only knows how much terror was ripping through that little kid's heart as he was running towards that thing. I imagine he probably wet his pants. Well, thanks, Vicki. We didn't talk too much about like what people see. I was going to say my last question for you is like, what's the story of sleep paralysis that stands out of all the ones you've heard? Because a lot of times people just think if they have a bad dream, it's sleep paralysis.

Yeah. And it's not the same thing. So what's the one story that like sort of gives gives people context when they, this is what sleep paralysis looks like and actually is. Yeah. Well, so I'll give you a personal story of one of them that happened to me within the last few years. And this is when I was trying to, I was trying to determine, am I really seeing my bedroom or am I seeing an overlay? And so I came up with this great test, you know, and anytime you try to outsmart these things, they get mad and they just, they just take it up a notch. So don't try to be too cute with these things. but I thought I was really going to out with these things and I was going to sleep with a sleep mask on. So I would know if I had sleep paralysis that whether or not I could see my room or not.

And so, you know, I was wearing this thing for months, just waiting for it to happen. And so it finally happened one night and I had the sleep mask on. So I 100% knew that, you know, even if my eyes were opened, it was tightly sealed underneath the sleep mask. And I, the sleep paralysis experience started. And it was the craziest thing, you guys. It was like my sleep mask. This is what's weird. Instead of seeing a whole room, I could only see something that, like, in front of me that was in the shape of my sleep mask.

I couldn't see anything beyond it. And the inside of my sleep mask turned into a mirror. And I was looking at my own face. And the reflection in this sleep mask mirrored exactly how I was feeling at that. at that moment. And it was a trifecta of terror because, A, it's the sleep paralysis experience in and of itself is scary. Two, I'm realizing, you know, oh my word, it's not my room. It's not my room. I've been looking at all these years. And then the third thing that was so scary is they have control of my visual cortex right now. They could make me see anything. And if I don't

wake up, I might see something graphic. I might start seeing demons. I might. I might start seeing demons. I might start seeing something frightening. And so the feeling of terror with people with sleep paralysis, there's a difference between a nightmare or, you know, that fear, that adrenaline pumping fear, like when you think someone's broken in your house and you hear footsteps in the other room,

like that doesn't even compare. It doesn't touch this level of terror. It is literally, I think it's a hint of the hopeless kind of, fear people are going to experience on judgment day when they hear it go away i never knew you it is the most hopeless sense it's not even terror it is utter hopelessness uh which we interpret as terror but for me and a lot of people will say this when they have this experience it is it is a feeling of um i'm going to die i'm not going to wake up from this i'm going to be dragged to hell there's no

hope and in fact a lot of times that's what the voice is either audibly or in your head or saying like you have no hope. No one can hear you. And so I think that the thing that makes most sleep paralysis experiences, the thing that they all have in common is this terror that goes beyond just fear. And the fear will often linger. And one thing I do want to tell people is, when the event is over, continue to pray those warfare prayers. Because just because something stopped does not mean that there isn't still a presence there in your room. You usually can kind of feel when they're gone, but it doesn't mean that something hasn't attached.

You have to pray right then and there. If anything has attached to me, you have to do all the prayers to. It's not just as easy as praying Jesus and going, that was a close one. There's a lot of stuff you have to do before, during, and after the experience. And I outline that at length in my book too, because there's a lot of things you have to do before. If you're not prepared for this kind of a fight before it happens, you're not going to be prepared in the heat of the moment.

You know, it'd be like sending the Marines over, you know, to Afghanistan and they never went to boot camp. You know, they never learned how to fire a weapon. On the front lines of battle is not the time to start trying to figure out how to shoot your weapon. Yeah, that's true, right? You know how to put it together by then, yeah. Man, well, thanks for sharing that story. I think that's difficult for a lot of people. And I think some people out there, you know, it helps them put together some clues.

And that's what a lot of our stories on our show do. You know, a lot of people email us. We don't necessarily know what to tell people. Get a lot of messages. And it's that, you know, we're so busy just trying to get this show out once a week and deal with all the other things that it's like sometimes people, people ask us. They want to know and they don't have any resources. So hopefully more and more guests like you coming on and sharing these experiences and writing books about this. And the book is they only come out at night.

You can get the book on Amazon, I'm guessing. No, actually, it's exclusively available on L.A. marzuli.com. Okay. Let's go. L.A. baby. That's right. Well, Vicki Joy, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for making time for us and for our show.

Thanks, guys. Thanks for getting a T-shirt. I mean. Yeah, she's wearing a Camp Nephilim shirt. You're on the top of the pedestal right now for a guest's show. In gear, it's phenomenal. Thank you for the time. Tell people where they can also find you.

They find the book at L.A.Mazili.com. Where they can find you, where they can interact with you. They've had experiences and they want to reach out. Absolutely. How to find it. Yeah. Yep. You can find me at v.joyanderson.com.

Vicki is spelled V-I-C-K-I. And for the young folks out there on Instagram and TikTok, I am V-J-A author. All right. Let's go. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for the time. Yeah. Thank you guys.

Loved it. Awesome. Well, we'll let you know when this. comes out. Okay. Yeah, give me heads out. Thanks so much, Vagu. Cool. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye.

Bye.