Blurry Creatures - EP: 137 Wandering Stars with Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Author, podcaster, and theologian Doug Van Dorn returns to the show to explore his research on biblical prophecy. Ancient civilizations had an extremely advanced understanding of the movement of the stars and the procession of the skies--so much so that cities, megaliths, and other structures were built and designed to mirror the heavens. What did biblical writers know about the heavens that we do not? What is astral prophecy? How can Christians understand what the ancients did about the movement of stars and 'signs' in the heavens? Is any of this related to the watchers and the fallen sons of god?  guest: douglasvandorn.com Intro song: Boy Meets Girl: "Waiting for a star to fall"  contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes. What's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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Just cover the shipping. Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. All right. So when Jesus is born in Matthew 2, you have this star. and the magi know that this star is here somehow and these magi come from the east where are they coming from i think they're coming from babylon why are they coming from babylon i think it's because that's where

israel was in exile for 70 years and many of them stayed after that and this is where daniel was brought when he was in exile and daniel knew the prophecies and he knew how to look at the signs i mean no culture in history had ever been as good at understanding the heavens as the Babylonians. Welcome back to blurry creatures, the podcast about creatures, and we talk about the historical context of creatures, whether it's Bigfoot, Giants, or modern day sightings of weird things that don't fit the narrative or the paradigm. But today we're talking to author Doug Van Dorn. He wrote a book about the Giants, and that's why we originally brought him on the show. But since we've become good friends and Doug comes on the show quite a bit and we talk about all kinds of things

but today we're talking about sort of the signs in the heavens and this one's uh kind of about blurry skies things that the ancient new ancient people knew about the signs in the heavens and stars and such and what does that mean bivocally speaking and why we kind of just stay away from it because we're all afraid of the topic in general but we're talking about that this week Doug is a good guy and a good friend and we're pumped to have him on the show this week If you are just joining us, welcome to the Blurieverse. We got Doug to do some funny radio voices at the end of the episode, and you'll hear those. But if you are good with the 80s, you understand that we're kind of an 80s show.

We have an 80s theme. That's how we use to market our show. Obviously, we're not an 80s show, but we need something to make it fun here on Blurry Creatures. And this song, Waiting for a Start of Fall, hopefully some of you guys out there know your songs from the 80s. If you want to become a member of this podcast and support the show, blurrycreatures.com slash members. Can't say enough thanks to all the people who support the show. That's how Luke and I do this.

You get access to your own private RSS feed, which means you get the bonus episodes right to your phone, access to chat rooms where you get to hang out with other members, and you get the chat with us on Zoom calls once a month. And for the gold members, we do a little extra perks. You get your own channels, and you get access to their movie nights. We watch movies at least once a month, sometimes more. And we all hang out and chat and watch a movie together. So blurrycreatures.com slash remembers.

Doug Van Dorn is coming up next, and we're going to have them at BlurieCon. And sorry for anyone who didn't get tickets to that. We are working on details for people who purchase a live ticket, sort of a digital access ticket, to a live stream. So stay tuned. Information is coming if you're not on our email list. Get on our email list. so you know when that happens.

But let's get Doug Van Dorn on the show. This is Doug Van Dorn, and you are now entering the Blurieverse. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural.

This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to the podcast, Doug Van Dorn, the legend. This is your sixth or seventh time on our show. We've talked about all kinds of things. We've done a series with a demon. We talked about giants, author, pastor, and you become a good friend of ours.

Thank you for field and text messages and phone calls. And that's what I really love about blurry creatures is that we've created a community that feels real. And the world's getting weirder by the day, blurrier by the hour. And sometimes you just got to text your friends. Did you see this? Did you see that? This is getting weird. It's getting strange.

So welcome back to blurry creatures, Doug. Always good to be here with you guys. Doug. Got to ask you, though. I know you've been thinking about Bigfoot. because you're out there in Colorado, you have any updated thoughts on that, our blurry fella?

Updated thoughts on Bigfoot? Well, I actually thought of a story. This is a true story from around 2003. It involves my brother. You've been holding on to this one. Yeah, I've been holding on to this one. I've been holding on to this one. So this involves my brother.

He lived out in L.A. for 25 years. and he went on a some sort of like a camping trip up in the woods up in northern California. And you won't believe who he went with. He went with Neil McDonough, never heard of him? Captain America guy, minority reports. He was one of the guys that got borged in first contact when they went walking out on the ship. Let's go. And he was there with Gary Marshall, the guy who was married to Penny and started Laverne and Shirley, Mark and Mindy.

Wow. And he was there with a guy named Jared LaMaster, who you might, you wouldn't know who he is, but you would see him if you watch the Babylon B because he's kind of become the main guy on their short videos. So what were they doing out there, Doug? They're making a movie? It sounds like you got like a cast. So, dude, they were out there and they were spending the night, several nights, and they saw Bigfoot several times. And you can see this in his movie called They Call him Satswatch. No. What?

Yeah, my brother made this. this Bigfoot movie 20 years ago. Of course you saw. It's called they call him Sasquatch. And he told me, he goes, he goes, if you tell them they need to watch it, then I'm going to kill you because it's, he doesn't like the movie. Now everybody needs to go and watch that movie. Now we go, you go watch it.

All of a sudden, the sales for this like B movie Sasquatch are going to go out there, out the roof. There's actually a lot of movies about Bigfoot. There are. You didn't think it, but there's a lot. And a lot of documentaries, a lot of poor ones. I hold fast at Andre. the giant version of Bigfoot, we're going to be honest.

I see, speaking of plugging stuff, Doug. Doug, you never plug any of your stuff. You really don't. I think we should do that for you here because, Doug, you've written a bunch of books. And we're not going to, today we're not talking about any of those specifically, but you've written a book on giants called Giants, Sons of the Gods, Five Souls of Reformation, Covenant Theology, Waters of Creation, Conspiracy Theory, we should do an episode on that. Angel of the Lord, you wrote from the shadows.

There's one on Galatians. I'm just actually looking at your, I'm doing a poor job of reading the small print on your website. Yeah. But no, I want, did we log? Dude, you're such a great friend to us and to the show that like, listen, guys, Doug has spent all the hours. And one of the things we do on our show and we talk about a lot, Nate, is that, you know, we want to bring people on them to spend the 10,000 hours being experts, you know, because we're here to learn and we're here to talk about, you know, one of the things I like personally, selfishly about the show, Nate's learning. And, you know, people like Doug Van Dorn have been in there putting out the work and putting, you know, You know, we're grateful for you when you spend an hour plus with us to talk about the things that you've researched and learned.

But Douglas van dorn.com. Doug's not going to plug it. We're going to plug it. Go check it out. Get yourself a book, direct from the source. My man, you've got a lot of books behind you. I do have a few books behind me. No, I wanted to make sure we did that before we forgot to do that because we get it.

Well, that's awfully nice. No, we appreciate it. Yeah. So many people have been so kind and awesome to us. And I love it when people get on our Instagram or on our social channels and post pictures are buying the books. A lot of people buy the books. and people come on the show. So thank you.

People still buy books. They don't buy DVDs, as we were talking about before the show. But they buy books, and you got to work on some 80s spins. Put some 80s. Dude, some splatter paint, maybe, and some neon colors, yeah?

Compare some theology to an 80s movie, and it'll be a hit. The theology of Teen Wolf. We can't wait for it to come out. Theology. It's going to have it. E. E.D.S. Corderoi.

O.P. Shorts. Dude, oh, man. Bring those back. No, but today, Doug, we had been talking back and forth about wanting to do an episode, and you recently did some speaking. And so we reached out about talking about the blurry skies. And I would love to jump into that.

I know that one of the things you've been working on and researching is astral prophecy, correct? Astral prophecy, yeah. Yeah, so this was a talk that I gave for Skywatch and their defender conference. Anybody who's interested in what we'll talk about here tonight can go to do. Defenderconference.com and they can sign up for the conference. I think it's like November 4th or something like that. And it'll be an online deal. You have access to a whole bunch of different presenters. I'll just be one of those. And I gave two talks. I only give you kind of part of those tonight. One of them we already did, actually. It was on serpent mounds with glory creatures.

So and Judd. So this one's going to be on astral prophecy. And this is something that I have not formerly written about. I have it in a bunch of sermons. So this is stuff I was coming across when I was preaching through Revelation about two years ago. And it just kept coming up over and over and over again in the book of Revelation. And so anybody who would be interested in more of a deep dive on that until we end up publishing the book on Revelation, which is the long way out if we ever do it, you can just go to our website, www.rbcNc.com. And all those PDFs are there available for. free and you can listen to the sermons too they're all linked there hmm love that I know I know we have some glory creatures folks to go to your church so yeah yeah so they got they got

direct asses they went the hard copies printing out map quests back in the day like you print it out for us stuff yeah so they'll be like we already heard this but that's okay hear it again sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill it's like the crash site document you can't read it there's a bunch of numbers random fees vague language stuff's blacked out you're like What am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy.

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upfront payment of $45 for a three-month five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-priced plan options available, taxes and fees extra, cement mobile for details. We talk a lot about how the ancients knew had this knowledge. A lot of people don't understand that you're trying to argue for the blurry things and give people some context of why you can trust that the ancients had more knowledge than we did. Not only to build things that we can't build, but also they had this alignment down. They understood the constellations, the stars, and And it comes up a lot on our show. And there's something to all this.

But a lot of people get it mixed up with the new age stuff. So obviously, because we're coming from a biblical perspective, like, how do you talk about these things and think about these things from a biblical perspective as opposed to the new age perspective, which feels like it was hijacked. I mean, just like everything else by the, you know, by the darkness, right? They hijacked something and make it counterfeit, I would imagine. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. The truth comes first and then the lie comes after the truth as a rip-off of it.

it. So actually, part of the lecture that I gave on this talk was actually right about that. It was about astrology versus kind of a biblical way of looking at the stars. So let's just jump into it right here. Let's go. Why would we call it blurry skies and how could we even talk about this as blurry creatures in any meaningful way? And the way that I'll get at this is by talking about mostly the stars, the idea of what is a star in the Bible. But, you know, the sun is a star, so that would be included. And then the moon is kind of its counterpart. So that would be included. And then the planets, which we think of as planets and the way our worldview works, but they talked about them as wandering stars. Jude actually uses the language of wandering stars, which we'll get into here in a

little bit. So all of these things are blurry because they are directly or indirectly, mysteriously, sacramentally, I don't know what the right word is linked to the heavenly beings. And there's several verses to start it off with. I think the most obvious one to me is Job 387, because we've talked so much about the sons of God, both I have with you guys and also a lot of your guests have. And the sons of God would be these heavenly creatures that came down in Genesis 6, right? Well, Job 387 directly links them to stars. And this is the story where God is talking to Job out of the whirlwind. And he's questioning Job, where were you when I did this? Where were you when I did this? And the whole context of that is at the very beginning of creation. So man has not been created

yet. This is like day one, day two stuff. And he says that I was laying the foundations of the earth, the pillars, all the stuff. And then said, where were you when the morning stars sang together? And all the sons of God shouted for joy. That's classic Hebrew parallelism. So the morning stars are parallel to the sons of God. Stars, gods. Our mind, we separate them. They're completely different from one another. One is a supernatural entity if we even think about it at all. The other is this ball of gas out in the night sky, totally physical, has no relationship to spiritual whatsoever. That's not the way the Bible views this. Psalm 108, or sorry, 148, 1 through 4. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord from the heavens. Praise him in the heights. Praise him all his angels.

Praise him all his hosts. Praise him sun and moon. Praise him all you shining stars. Same kind of an idea. How in the world is a ball of gas going to praise God? Because in the biblical ancient mind, these things were intimately related to each other. Another classic one is Isaiah 1433. You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven above the stars of God. I will set my throne on high. I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north. This is God speaking about the king of Babylon, but behind the king of Babylon is this other creature, this heavenly being called Halel bin Shikar, this shining one son of the dawn. And this is actually the very place where the Latin Vulgate translates it as Lucifer.

So we know about Lucifer from this passage. And Lucifer says, I will ascend above the stars of God. What's he talking about there? That's a divine counsel kind of a thing. I'm going to become the ruler of the divine counsel. And there again, the stars are equated with heavenly beings. And there's all kinds of these things. Here's one that people don't often think of.

This is an apocalyptic passage in Matthew 24. The Olivet discourse, Jesus talking about kind of the end of days. And he says immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. And the stars will fall from heaven and all the powers of the heavens will be shaken. So a lot of people think, well, what's that going to be, you know, some sort of a naturalistic phenomenon. the night sky. I don't think so. I think this is talking more about spiritual entities that are going to be punished for what they've done. And it uses the language of stars and powers of heaven shaking and all this kind of stuff. And then one more I'll give you as Revelation 1 because that kind of brings us to

this book of Revelation and stuff I wanted to talk about. As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, Jesus says, and the seven golden lamp stamp. the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven lampstands are the seven churches. So here again, you have stars being equated with these angelic beings and then closely identified down here on Earth with seven churches. And that brings us to a really, really important thing to understand that a lot of people think is a pagan concept. And I'll tell you why. but I think it's actually a biblical concept that was perverted.

And this goes to something that you can find this all over the place in the ancient world, but one of the more interesting to me are the emerald tablets of the Toth. Have you guys heard that? Yeah, actually, you know what's funny, Doug? I put a note in like show notes because I had seen something about the Emerald Tavis wanting at some point to talk about that. I don't know. I haven't done enough research on what they are, you know, how real it is or whatever.

but we do have kind of a one-page summary that were supposedly written on the tablets, and they begin this way. Truth, certainty, that in which there is no doubt. And then here's the key line. That which is above is from that which is below. And that which is below is from that which is above. It's like a hermetic secret society, Gnostic sort of an idea that as above, so below. If you read Graham Hancock, he's a book called,

heaven's mirror. And that very title is named after this idea. And we find this in the way that the ancient structures were being built to emulate the heavenly constellations, right? So probably the most famous are the three pyramids of Giza, emulating Orion's belt. And then the Nile, which they're right by emulating the Milky Way galaxy. We find this with one of the serpent mounds, one that's no longer here, one that was in Florida. It was laid out according to the pattern of the constellation serpens. We find this over in Cambodia in this famous temple called Angkor Wat, which the whole thing was laid out according to the constellation Draco. So these guys are doing this all over the place. As in heaven, so on earth. And there was this idea of a mirror. Heaven was supposed to

be the archetype. And then Earth was the thing that emulated it so that things would be in harmony or whatever. But like I said, I don't think that this is a purely pagan thing because Jesus teaches us this very thing and he actually tells us to pray it this way in the Lord's prayer. Our Father who's in heaven, hallow be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done. And then what? On earth as it is in heaven. So this is kind of the key point that I think people need to understand as we're going to talk about this astral prophecy idea and all these weird connections and revelation that I quite honestly had never really heard very many people talk about if anybody and had to really go digging and found some scholars that were willing to talk about it.

And I think it's absolutely fascinating. And it all kind of derives from this philosophy that heaven and earth is supposed to be mirrored together. So I'll stop if you guys have things you want to say about that. Doug, it's funny. You know, you say this. I was actually reading today an article about, as a teenager from Canada, who figured out that the Mayan cities were laid out exactly correlated to 20 of the Mayan constellations, like literally exactly laid out and he found missing cities because when he overlaid the Mayan constellations with a known Mayan cities, there was a few missing spots. And then when they went to find, they found these cities, which is fascinating to me that the ancients went to such efforts to build in these exact

locales on the planet, whether it is the pyramids or Anchor Wat or. And they knew some stuff, enough to, like, be able to lay out things that you would think you'd only be able to really see from above, which is also fascinating. And it was like a kid or something that discovered that, wasn't it? It was 15 years old. Yeah. That's amazing. Canadian high school kid. Yeah.

And he was just on Google Earth and he started overlaying constellations, mine constellations. Well, we talked about that with Derek, too, is that a lot of this stuff is just the way they built it in jungle areas and it just got berries. It's got buried, yeah. And obviously in Egypt, it's in a desert, so you can, it doesn't get buried by all the the overgrowth. But I think on our last episode we talked about at the very end, we talked about how right before Christ shows up, there's a celestial event. And Christians are sort of weirded out by stars in astrology. They don't even want to talk about it.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think that the ancients were, they understood it, and we don't even want to talk about it? I think a couple of reasons. One is because it is associated in our minds with astrology, with paganism, and that's been abused very badly, and it uses things that we're forbidden from using, and it's not good. So that's a perfectly understandable reason. Another one is because we've had a lot of people that have, like, little boys that cried a wolf won too many times with these kinds of things. I think about, like, John Hage and his red blood moon books and those kinds of things, and people are always always, wanting to put dates when they see these kinds of heavenly things. And so fool me once,

fool me twice, fool me 150 times. And it just gets old. You know, I grew up with that kind of stuff. There was a book, this wasn't the heavenly stuff, but it was a book on the rapture back in 1988. So it's up your 80s alley. It was called 88 reasons why Jesus was returned in 88. He said in the book, you know, we can't know the day or the hour, but we can know the weekend. Yeah, it worked out real well. And then he was. was wrong and then he came out with another book the next year that didn't do quite as well, 89 reasons while he'll come back in 89 because he missed it just by a little bit. You know, if he would have kept going, he could have gone around the horn. It could be one reason

that he's coming, zero reasons he's coming back and it's double zero. Exactly. So I think people just get burned out from this kind of stuff. And I don't want to use this for any kind of predicting of dates or whatever. But I do, I do want people to see that God cares about the heavens. He's put heavenly things in place on purpose. They have some kind of relationship to what goes on down here. And some of that can be prophetic, I think. And I think we can prove that with stuff that's already happened. Some of it might be prophetic in the future. But I don't know that any of us are smart enough to figure it out before the fact because they really weren't before the fact then, except for a couple people. Some of it's just used symbolically. Like it is metaphors for things.

We'll see that here in Revelation. Other times it's used as ways to help us understand. understand the totality of creation, worshiping God. So we'll get into all that here as we get into Revelation. Awesome. I know the famous one, Nate, that we hear all the time, Doug, as well as you see a third of heaven, right? It's the whole idea this third of heaven fell like stars. Isn't that the... That's Revelation 12, actually. I won't get into that part of it, but that's the dragon sweeping a third of the stars out of the skies. And it's funny because people think that that that's talking about some kind of a fall before creation, but it's not talking about that at all. It's actually talking about the birth of Christ.

Go on. I want to hear about this. I'll get there. I'll get there. Okay. All right. Yeah, a third of angels falling is a lot of people come on and said that that's not really anywhere in the Bible, right? Right.

We got that from. At least not an original fall. I mean, you've got the fall in the garden. We know something happened there. I have no problem thinking that more than one heavenly being fell there. I think Ezekiel, a couple passages that Ezekiel allude to that. King of Tyre. Yeah.

And also the tree, the giant tree, the Egyptian tree that the king of Assyria is like. It talks about the trees of Eden going down to Hades. That's also language that's akin to the stars. It's talking about heavenly beings there. So yeah, there was a fall there. I don't think the fall was before man. I think it was because of man. All right.

So let's go to Revelation chapter two and three. So this is the, I'll just kind of go through the chapters in order. This is the two chapters with the seven churches. You've got Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thait, Rassardis, Philadelphia, Laodacia. Seven is a very interesting number. We've already seen that these things are the seven golden lamp stands and somehow they're related to the seven angels, right? So somebody speculated that maybe there's a layout there on the ground of how these, how and

why these cities were put there. This could also be a heaven mirror thing. And if you overlay the Pleiades with the seven churches, you get about five and a half of the stars are in exactly the right place of where the, of where the seven cities are. One of them's kind of off and then one of them is kind of out in nowhere. I think that's really interesting that it's possible that they were actually laying out that whole complex in cities according to the Pleiades.

and they were somehow remembering or worshipping things that took place long ago or entities that were put over that specific area. And there's lots of different possibilities for that. But the Pleiades are seven stars. And so that's why I bring that up. But in this passage, you get these weird talks about all these false prophets and false teachers that, the churches are supposed to be aware of, okay? And I'll start off here with this verse from Jude, because Jude uses the same language for the same kind of thing. He says, these people blasphing, and so he's talking about false teachers, woe to them, they are wandering stars for whom the gloom of

utter darkness has been reserved forever. So a wandering star in the ancient mind was there was seven of them, and these were the seven objects in the night sky that didn't work and operate the way that the rest of the stars, all the rest of the stars are fixed. They never change. Now, they move over the night sky, but the seven wandering stars are moving all over the place. These are the five planets that you can see with your naked eye, so Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and then the sun and the moon. So those are the seven, wandering stars of the ancient world. And it's interesting because they're all named after deities, every last one of them, even the sun and the moon. And they were all worshipped in the ancient

world. So that's blurry creature stuff right there. Yeah, that is. All right. Now, what's interesting is that each one of these seven churches has something associated with one of the seven wandering stars. Some of them are harder to see than others. But let's just kind of go in order. The largest city of Asia Minor is Ephesus. Okay. So of the seven churches, Ephesus is the biggest one. It's the biggest site of commerce and that kind of stuff. And John says to the angel of the church at Smyrna Wright, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place. So he's directly talking about the lamp stand, which you've already seen, is related to these heavenly angels. And this is the largest of these cities. And so it would correspond to the sun.

Smyrna is like the moon because it waxes and it wanes. And you get this with the language of first and last, died come to life, died come to life. So if you go and read that little section, it's like Smyrna is waxing and waning like the moon. Pergamum is much easier to see because this corresponds to Mars, and Mars or Ares is the god of war. And so to this church, Jesus talks about how he has the sharp, two-edged sword. And if they don't repent, he's going to war against Pergamum with the sword of his mouth. So Pergamum corresponds to Mars. Thiatira corresponds to Venus most directly, because Venus is the morning star. And it says to Thiatira, it actually uses the language of Morning Star with Thiatira.

Sardis is corresponding to Mercury. Mercury was the god of thieves, and Jesus says, if you will not wake up, I will come to you like a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come against you. Jupiter corresponds to Philadelphia, because Jupiter is the king of planets, and this is the only church that Jesus mentions a king, and he says, I am the one who hold the key of David.

David's the king. And then the last one, Laodicea corresponds to Saturn. Saturn was known in astronomy for its sluggish motion. And this is the church that Jesus talks about as being lukewarm, wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, naked, sluggish. So that's not coincidental. Something's happening there. What's going on? So I think what's happening is that in this particular instance in Revelation, John is using the Seven Wandering Stars as an illustration, maybe more than an illustration.

of the false teachers that are in their midst, and these false teachers are people that are part of the synagogue of Satan or, you know, that kind of supernatural language. They're teaching demonic doctrines. And so if the church doesn't wake up, they are going to emulate not the stars, but the wandering stars. And this is a bad thing. Doug, do you think that, like, historically speaking, that there was something going on these planets before creation of man? I've kicked around that idea, Nate. You know, there's a missing planet between Mars and Jupiter.

Yeah. And right where that planet is. Rehab as Tim Elmira says. Right where that planet is, there's a giant meteor belt. Well, it made me think of it because you were talking about how you know, Christ is going to bring

war to Mars. And so many people have sent us videos and clips of things and pictures that looks like there's destruction left on Mars. Yeah, it does. some sort of ancient war that happened there. There's been several people that have taken very seriously the whole Sidonia part of Mars,

thinking that it was not a natural formation that somebody built up there and that something cataclysmic happened. So I don't rule that out. It looks like a wasteland kind of. It does. But I mean, anyway, just thinking about that from the extent of prehistory, pre-human history, how maybe some of these people had knowledge of things that would happen before and humans just were playing with like a few cards and they got a whole deck, you know?

Oh, yeah. All right. So that's chapters two and three. Chapter four and five are interesting because this is like the, this is the worship scene, the heavenly scene where the lamb and God on the throne are being worshipped. And they're being worshipped by these four living creatures. And these four living creatures have these heads, these faces. One is an ox, one is an eagle, one is a man, and one is a lion.

And it's like, this is really bizarre, what in the world's going on here. So that imagery comes from Ezekiel chapter one, where the exact same thing is going on. And you have these living creatures that are surrounded by wheels and more wheels, wheels and wheels, and they bow down and they worship God. So what would that be? In certain circles, people think that this is talking about a UFO. It's not talking about a UFO. It's talking about the night sky. And it's talking about the four cardinal points of the zodiac, the four cardinal constellations. You've got Taurus, Aquarius, the man. You've got Leo, the lion, and you've got Dan is the serpent. And the serpent was in ancient times known as the eagle. So you've got a reference here to the constellations, the zodiac. And when you, in Ezekiel, the wheel that's spinning. If you were to take a, time-lapse picture and point your camera right at the North Star. And then over the night sky,

you would see the stars revolving around in a circle. And they end up creating wheels within wheels because it's the sky going around this pinpoint of the North Star. And that's what he's describing. And what he's saying is that all of God's creation is worshiping the Lamb. And it's no coincidence that in, I think it's chapter 5, the lamb is also called the lion of the tribe of Judah. And that's where that comes from. So that has an origin. And this takes us on a little bit of diversion that we need to talk about, which is that God was doing a heavenly mirror thing with Israel in the Old Testament. So if you go to Genesis 49 is the starting point of this, this is where Jacob is giving his last will and testament to his statement to his story.

12 sons. And he calls out several of the sons and he identifies them really weirdly. He calls Rubin, the man, the firstborn, and in water is part of that prophecy. He calls Judah, the lion, the lion's whelp. And he says that the king, the staff will not depart from that. He calls Dan a serpent. and he calls Joseph, who ends up becoming Manassah later, a bull in the Targum. And you can find the bull also, I think, in Deuteronomy. So that ends up transforming into something in the tabernacle. So God has Israel going around and around and around for 40 years in the wilderness. And they have to camp around the tabernacle.

Tabernacle's right in the dead center. and when they're camping around the tabernacle, he has them camp in very specific places. So Judah has to camp right at the entrance of the tent on the east side. And Judah is the lion. And then you've got Dan who has to camp on the north side. And you've got Manasseh who has to camp on the west side. And you've got Rubin who camps on the south side. And what you end up with there is that Israel is emulating the constellations on earth

through their tribes. 12 tribes, 12 constellations, four cardinal tribes, four cardinal constellations, north-southeast, west. And in the middle, you know, of the heavenlies is the sun, and in the middle of Israel is the tabernacle, where the king sits, the son of God, the son of the S-U-N of righteousness that Malachi calls him. So what's happening is that God is doing something on earth through his chosen people that they are going to kind of take the place of the heavenly beings because the heavenly beings fell. And so he's going to start over and do something new with his people. And on earth, they are going to be the ones who will be doing the ruling, which is what it was supposed to be all along, but Adam fell into sin. And then he come along to

the very end of Daniel. And Daniel starts talking about how the saints will be like the star, the stars of God, and they will essentially in eternity take the place of these fallen watchers as kind of the punishment for what they've done and really as glorification for what Christ the Godman did. And then in saving his people, they will end up, Paul says, judging angels. It's wild. And you think about the idea that the temple is an effigy of a mountain. We talk about how they do that across the ancient world as well. They create these artificial mountains. The temple as it was built in Israel, but also the tabernacle,

if I'm correct, was essentially an effigy of a mountain as well. So you have this like Mount Zion that God dwells on top of the mountain. Yeah, it gets within all that too, which is wild. The tabernacle is a little harder to see, but you can see

it. So like you've got the gold that always is up and you got the bronze that's always touching the ground and you got silver that's always in the middle. Those are kinds of ideas of heavenly, earthly, with the bronze and in the middle the middle realm is where the silver belongs so you definitely have a picture uh you get it with the garden of eden imagery on the curtains where you've got these chair beam and all you know the animals on the altar that they were supposed to put in there that's

the whole thing is echoing eden and eden itself was mountain you know if you go back to ezekiel 28 yeah that very clearly slowed down out of eden absolutely it's a cosmic mountain that's going on there We talked to Tim Mackey about that. That was one of our fascinating episodes. So by design, the camp of Hebrews was laid out to emulate the night sky by order. It was meant to. Yep. And it's the whole idea that it has, it's not the as on as earth as in heaven.

Is it that? But what was your war going to be? No, because I know that that's like, that's also been repurposed and counted. underfeited, right, to, like you said, like the secret societies and even the Graham Hancock stuff, that there's like this sort of inverse side of the coin. Here's the way that it's perverted, I think. So you have to go back to Tower Babel for this. So the Cosmic Mountain, the original Cosmic Mountain is the place of Eden where God himself comes down. He creates man. He walks with them in the garden. He gives them the law. They're supposed to obey him. They're supposed to do what he says.

Tower Babel is the anti-Eden because they're creating a man-made mountain. They were not given permission to do it. They're trying to ascend to the stars. They're trying to somehow connect with the heavenly beings on their own terms to use those powers for their own purposes. And that's completely forbidden. And that's completely. So what the tabernacle is doing is it's God again coming down to Israel and commanding them to do this. And it's not going to be them trying to reach up to the gods. Instead, the 12 tribes are actually taking the place of those constellations, of those gods. And in their midst will be Yahweh, who they are supposed to follow with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Obeying his law, him being their king in their midst,

him leading them where they would go. So the tabernacle is really kind of a return to Eden. And it's the exact opposite of what they were doing at Tower Babel. So if you think about what they were doing with their pagan sanctuaries, their pyramids, their temple complexes, I believe that they were doing the same stuff that they were doing at Babel, where they were emulating the stars in particular gods so that they could somehow capture the power of that God or interact with it or whatever the case might be. Hmm. It's kind of like everyone's playing the chess game. They're moving their pieces. They're putting their pieces in strategic places. And the Israelites are too. And they're warring each other, obviously, but they're sort of on the same turf, the same earth. Now we're in this age where we just, we have no idea how they set up the board back then. For sure. And so there's this, there's war. And I think that's, that seems to echo just like the spiritual war we have going on in all things. And at that point, I think it's interesting that, like, we talk about the pyramids like Orion and then these cities even like the Pleiades. And in the ancient aliens world now and in the ancient world is then, there's this talk of the certainly these entities were from those places, right? Like these entities were from the belt of Orion from one of the stars and the belt of Orion.

And these entities were from the Pleiades, right? We talked about this on a couple shows where they believe these aliens and entities, everyone to call them, come down. It's fascinating to me. these particular places also have this lore or association. I mean, not accidentally with these entities that, you know, if you end up on on the other side of the fence when it comes to the ancient aliens kind of theory stuff, you say these people came and then they were here and that's why they did this.

But it sounds a lot more like Table of Nations stuff to me. And, you know, these sons of God being placed over these people groups and then there's sort of this homage to, you know, to the representation of. them in the stars. I'm... No, I think that's exactly what's going on. And you remember that when God gave the nations the sons of God and put them over them, that was something that he did.

He gave them to them. So the sons of God actually inherit the nations as their inheritance from the father, if you wouldn't put it that way. So it was a legal right that they had. And what the war is is because they were evil and they didn't rule well and they ruled wickedly. And they taught people to worship themselves. instead of the Creator. The war becomes this war of the seeds where Jesus ends up overthrowing them,

creating a whole new group of sons of God, which are humans, that are saved by him, that become part of his family. And that becomes the war. And so in Revelation, 4 and 5 is so important because you don't see in that chapter the stars being rebellious. You see them all falling down and bowing before God and doing what they're supposed to do. They're worshipping him because all things are being made right. So this might be a dumb question, but I'm sure listeners are wondering if God sets up these nations with these other lesser Gs to rule over them, is the idea for them to rule justly? I mean, does, I mean, does God know they're going to rule poorly? Dr. Heiser talks about it as, he talks about it as punitive punishment.

So we deserve them and they deserve us. And God knows full well that they're going to rule wickedly. And so he punishes them for it later. It's kind of like when God sends the Babylonian to destroy the Israelites and the captivity. And then later he sends or before that he sends the Assyrians to do the same thing to the northern kingdom. He knows so well that they're completely wicked evil people. But he's judging his people through another evil people. And that evil people doesn't get off the hook just because.

he sent them to do the job because they didn't obey his law. They were completely wicked in what they did and they ended up getting their own punishment later on. The judgment comes. Yeah. Yep. Interesting. Fascinating. I'm continue on. Okay. It's good to chapter six. I've been debating how much of this do I want to get into because I already did it for the other thing. And I'd like people to actually go and be a part of that. But I do want to mention something in chapter six. So this is the four horsemen of the Apocalypse chapter. And what you have is in that chapter, you have one of the four living creatures calling out to one of the horsemen. And a long story short is that you have, if you look at a zodiac and then you line up the four horsemen to particular others of the eight other constellations,

you can actually line them up and they fit perfectly. One is Virgo. One is Sagittarius, a couple others, and you have this speaking of, so like the lion to one of those guys, and then the man to one of those guys, and then the eagle to one of them, the ox to one of them. And when you look at it on a zodiac and a clock, you end up having a reversal. You're going backwards around the clock from where one is speaking to the other, it's going backwards. And so it's, I mean, the whole thing is completely fascinating and really strange, but I think what's going on there is that there's theological messaging happening. So it starts, you know, on the right, instead of the, you know, if you look at a clock, a regular clock, the hands are going to the right.

In this case, the hands would be going to the left. In other words, time is going backwards. And I think that the messaging going on there is that through these heavenly beings and however they're related to the four horsemen of the apocalypse, God is going to be doing a decreation on this earth. He's going to be undoing what he has done. Through the punishment of these writers that are somehow connected to the heavenly realm, they're going to be undoing creation, which is what war is all about, right? I mean, it's a destruction of civilization.

It's an undoing of order, all those kinds of things. But that comes across pretty clearly when you understand that John isn't leaving behind any of this astronomical stuff that he's been talking to, about he's continuing with it as he moves through his book so you think if they're building these these structures on earth aligning with say these constellations that they're kind of welcoming in whatever entity it is it's sort of a because like we talk about all on the show a dog is like a lot of these things you can't see on the ground you have to you know now that we have drones and stuff we can fly right we can see like how did they know how to build this stuff right from an aerial view and is it sort of like a welcome like a welcome there

Like, come on down, hang out with us. 1,000%. Yeah. And it's an acknowledgement that there were very particular entities that were put over specific geographical regions. So you can take a kind of a bunny trail here and talk for a minute about some stuff that's pretty fascinating with this that I don't think I've told you guys about before. So if you look into the history of how they created the prime meridian, which is this zero longitude. And you have to have longitude in order to be able to now. navigate the seas. So you had to fix your longitude to a certain place. At one point in time, the longitude, the primordid was in Paris, and then it moved just slightly west to Greenwich,

England. And there was, Greenwich, first of all, is short for Greenwich. So there's some weird stuff going on there. And it's all astronomically based. So if you go back and you read the myth of the guy holding up the pillars, Atlas. Atlas is holding up the pillars. Atlas is holding up the pillars to keep heaven and earth from colliding into one another. So that's actually quite related to the as in heaven, so on earth thing. Well, there's a geographical location that is called the mountains of Atlas that happens to be right over the northwestern corner of Africa. And when you draw a line through the prime meridian, straight down, you go right through the pillars of Atlas. So, the prime meridian is being somehow tethered to this spot in mythology that it was believed that heaven and earth are being held apart from one another. When you do that, then you can start fixing the constellations over very specific parts of the night's sky. So, for example, just above the Atlas Mountains in Europe, there would be a constellation that is fixed right over the top of them. And that would be the Gemini twins.

And what's so strange about it is that the Gemini twins happen to, and I forget the exact way this works, but they happen to have their feet right where Italy is. And of course, Italy itself looks like a boot. Everybody knows that. And the founding myth of Rome is that it was founded by these twins. So what's going on with that? You can go farther to the east and you can see that when you fix your prime meridian there. that you have Orion happens to be just about over Egypt, right, where the pyramids are. You find that to the north and to the east of that up in Turkey, you have the Taurus mountains, and that's right where Taurus, the constellation would be fixed to. So we're not moving anything around. You can go to the west, and if you go, obviously, you go west of Europe, you end up in the Atlantic Ocean.

But if you go far enough west and then south, right where Leo is, you have the city of Kusko down in South America in Peru. And the city of Kusko is laid out to look like a Puma. The whole grid, it looks like a Puma. Well, they have Pumas in the Megaliths. They have in the rock. Absolutely. Well, it's because Leo is sitting directly over Kusko. You can go to Washington, D.C.

And you can see that Washington, D.C. is surrounded by three places, Maryland, Virginia, and Annapolis. And think of the roots of all those. Maryland, Virginia, Annapolis. Well, those are all like surrounding the idea of Virgo. And also, in some ways, the Virgin Mary, which in kind of a paganization of who Mary, is, which is really what Rome has done, you get overlaps with Mary and Virgo. Well, Virgo happens to dominate over the eastern two-third of the United States. And D.C., Virgo and Mary is representation of the divine female, which we know is the pinnacle. Absolutely. Of the Masonic religion is they

have the divine female, right? And then we know the D.C. is laid out by Mason's very specifically. And it's completely crazy, the way it's laid out. And there, apparently there's more zodiacs in Washington, D.C. than just about anywhere. And the primary sign on those zodiacs is Virgo. So you can go across the whole earth and you can do this. And you can see that all the ancient peoples and even until, I guess, the illuminated peoples in modern days, they know what's going on here. And they're tethering their place to the stars that are above it. And I think it's exactly what you said, Nate. There's reasons why they're doing that. One is legitimate because God put them over, put the beings over them, but others are illegitimate because they're trying to contact

them and worship them and get power from them or whatever else the case is. Well, it's weird if you do get into like the abduction phenomenon, but they all say when they're communicating with these entities, they're from a different place, from a different star. And there's no cohesion on where these people come from. So it sounds like there's people coming from who knows where and they all say they're from some different area or some part of the solar system and so it kind of aligns of what you're saying that there are multiple locations and they are building megalithic structures to their their constellation and specific geological location and i think sometimes when on our show just things like why do they pick these spots

they just pick random spots there's nothing random about anything no especially not with the ancient world and especially not when you're when you're taking decades to build cities and temple complexes yeah i mean hundreds of years yeah yeah absolutely i got a question for you so we're talking about all this stuff is astral prophecy right the prophetic imagery of the heavens and tied to the god of the universe and to you know prophetically predicting things and what's to come we talk about the other side of that like with astrology right because there's this this idea that the Stars can fortune tell, which is why I think the church and most Christians are like, whoa, stay away from that.

It's like, that's kind of witchcraft. It's not even kind of. That's really what it is in some ways, right? And so why do you think that, I want to unpack that just a little bit because we haven't really talked about that. The idea that the scriptures are using the heavens, is it just the most basic? Is it a counterfeit? Is it what we're talking about?

Like, that is this idea that, like, that as Earth is in heaven and in heaven, then will then predict what happens on Earth? and that's where it lives, but it's, you know, it's twisted, obviously, because if we're talking about metaphorically speaking, these stars are also entities, then you're born under a set of stars under a set of entities. That sort of dictates your future, right? It's very strange removing God from the equation, or God from being sitting on the throne, really, and being in control of your destiny and somehow, it's not as the stars.

Maybe I just answered my question by saying that. So I think at its best, well, let's not take astrology at its worst. Let's take it at its best. I liken it in a lot of ways to contacting the dead and how that's forbidden in the law of Moses. Don't do necromancy. Don't go after mediums and spiritists. Don't do that. And the reason isn't because it's fake.

It's because it's forbidden. Okay? So at its best, you could say that astrology, like, let's just assume for sake of argument that people were born under a sign. Okay? and that that sign had something to do with their life. I'm not saying I believe that. I actually don't think that I do believe that. But if we took it for sake of argument,

there's something that's just terribly against the gospel with that. Because what the Lord does through the gospel is he breaks the power of those entities that are over you. And so to consult back with them is to go back to a position of slavery to Satan. Come on now. when you've been set free from Christ. So there's no reason to do it. And in fact, it's a slap in the face to what Christ did for us when we go back and we do that kind of stuff. Wow.

So here's a thought. That's good. I love that, though. Like, I think people need to hear that. Nate, before he said that, people need to hear that because I know that there are some people who get kind of like sort of willy-nilly or wish you watched. Like, it's kind of fun. Reach your horoscope. But what we're talking about is actually it is re-enslaving yourself to the,

wishes of you know of of of an entity instead of living under the freedom of Christ yeah and you have to understand that Christ has set us free from not just sin and death but also Satan himself well here's a thought Doug that kind of goes along with all this let's say people were fixated on you were talking about the fixed constellations and then the planets were the moving stars the planets of the wandering stars yep wandering stars so when Christ shows up is the star in heaven heaven, the star over Bethlehem, outside of all that, a sign to all these fixed stars, I'm going to move this one that you've never seen before right in the middle of all this. Oh, that's a great question. That's a total lead-in, man. It's great. It's perfect.

Let's go to Revelation 12, because that's the perfect question. Look at you, bow. Look at you. Like you've done a podcast before, Nate. Hey, 130 episodes. I hope we know what we're doing a little bit. All right, I want to read Revelation 12 and just part of it, and just we'll read it, get a, get a for what it's talking about. This is a great sign appeared in heaven. All right? What have we been talking about?

We've been talking about the heavens. Okay, John's had this in his minds in chapter two, chapter three, chapter four, chapter five, chapter six. Now we're in chapter 12. Here's the sign. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains in the agony of giving birth.

And another sign, appeared in heaven, behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns on his heads, seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of stars of heaven. So there's where we get that, and cast them to earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that when she bore her child, he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child who is to rule all the nations with the rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she's to be nourished for 1,260 days. And then it goes on. So what in the world is going on? People talk about Matthew having a

birth story of Jesus. People talk about Luke, Luke, having a birth story of Jesus. People say, John doesn't have a birth story of Jesus. I actually think John has two birth stories. One is in John 1, where the word became flesh and tabernacled among us. That's important, because Because that's a hearkening to the Feast of Tabernacles. And the Feast of Tabernacles takes place in September every year. Revelation 12 is the other birth story of Jesus. And that's really important to see the context because it's very obvious who the child is. And this is Psalm 2.

He was going to rule the nations with the rod of iron. It's her child. And he was caught up to God to his throne. What's I talking about? This time with the birth of the Messiah. and then it's talking about his ascension after he's dead and been raised from the dead. And so then the rest of that chapter is really about the woman going out into the wilderness and the dragon goes after her to seek to devour to kill her, right?

So how does this match up then with the birth of Jesus? Well, this is where the sign in heaven comes in. You have a woman clothed with the sun. And by the way, there's a lots of scholarship on this. And Dr. Heiser has a, I don't know, an 11, 12-minute YouTube video that you can go up and look at the astronomy of what I'm about ready to say. So this starts with, it starts, first of all, I think, Nate, with your star. Okay, there was a prophecy that Balam, the pagan prophet, said that a star is going to come out of Jacob.

And that star is the one who's going to rule the nations. This is back in number, the book of numbers. You go to the book of Daniel, and in the book of Daniel, we find that Daniel, this is really interesting. He's the chief astrologer of Babylon, given that position by Nebuchadnezzar, and it's not looked at as an evil thing. It's looked at as a fine thing because this is a guy who worships God. He's not going to use it for evil purposes. All right. So when Jesus is born in Matthew 2, you have this star.

And the magi know that this star is here somehow. And these magi come from the east. Where are they coming from? I think they're coming from Babylon. Why are they coming from Babylon? I think it's because that's where Israel was in exile for 70 years. And many of them stayed after that. And this is where Daniel was brought when he was in exile.

And Daniel knew the prophecies. And he knew how to look at the signs. I mean, no culture in history had ever been as good at understanding the heavens as the Babylonians. They were astrologers par excellence. Nobody even comes close. And here Daniel is the chief over. them. So how could the magi know about this star? I think it's because of prophecy and because of the scripture. And I think what John's going to do here is going to unpack it for us. So the woman clothed

with the sun is Virgo. All right? Constellation Virgo. She's the only constellation that even matches. You would have to have an star alignment where the sun is going to be clothing her. So somewhere in her belly makes the most sense because she's pregnant. And the moon, is under her feet. So you got to have a time when the sun is at one place in Virgo and then the moon is right under her feet. And that can happen even though you might not be able to see the moon. It's still there, even though it's daytime, right? And they have a crown of 12 stars on her head. She's crying out in birth pains. And then another sign is appearing. And you have this great red dragon, which would be one of four options. The most likely one is that it's Draco. And it's a, it's a

scene of the constellations where essentially Draco is trying to stop Virgo from giving birth. And there's some other things that are going on here where you've got this kind of king star, which is Jupiter, and you have this king, uh, sorry, king star would be Regulus, which is in Leo, the lion, which is right next to Virgo. And then you have Jupiter, which is the wandering star, which is the king planet. And was there ever a time when the sun and the moon, and Jupiter and Regulus were all lined up in perfect position, according to what Revelation 12 says. And the answer to that is, yes, there was. And through astronomical software, we know that it only happened once within centuries on either side of that occurrence.

And that date is going to blow you guys away. Have you guys heard this before? So the date was 3B.C. September 11th. I was going to say, Father Christ, I was going to say September 11th, September 11th. So prior...

Which is why people think that's when Christ was born. That's right. And this is the reason why it's because this is astral prophecy being put into a kind of a historical form that these guys knew what they were looking at. They were looking for conjunction of the king planet, the king star, the sun and the moon, in Virgo giving birth. And they could predict this decades ahead of time. They didn't have a problem with that.

That's how good they were at this. They didn't need astronomical. software because this is what they did for a living. And so when that time was approaching, they were headed to the place of Bethlehem because Micah predicted that. And they knew the scripture and they went to go worship the king when he was born. So it's not like this, it's not like just some sort of a little star that's walking with them as they're going, showing the light like 10 feet over their head or something. It's an astronomical alignment. This makes me think about how the human body, the spirit of every human is bound to the flesh, right?

We're spirits, but we have this fleshly body, right? And one day we're going to get, you know, heavenly bodies. But are these territories sort of like the stars are sort of like the spirit and their territory is sort of this body, and they're kind of stuck to each other? So if Christ is outside of time, and this star, rolls onto the scene, the sort of outside of this astrological fixation, where everything's sort of structured and it's constantly repeating itself. But Christ rolls in when everything's aligned, but also this, do you think this star was sort of an anomaly? Like it's not following, it's not doing what

it should do. And it's like maybe a mirror of like Christ is going to, because he's outside of time, because he is the creator, he's going to all your limitations, all your, You know, your little territory is stuck to this little entity. Well, I'm greater than all of that. It's kind of the visual that I'm sort of thinking and getting in my mind as I see the night with the star over Bethlehem. So, yeah, again, I think that the star nate was actually the whole alignment itself, the whole thing, where Jupiter is in a very specific spot. Regulus is. Of course, it doesn't move. The sun is in the very specific spot in Virgo, right in the middle of her womb.

and then the moon is at her feet. I mean, these things are moving all the time. So it actually, there was actually in like a two or three hour period on that day when that would have even been the case. And then they would have moved out of it. So they're looking for that. What the wise men had have been following it for a while. Sure. Well, they knew exactly when it was going to happen.

That's what I'm saying. Like they have. Because they had the best astrologers. They have the instrumentation to be able to be able to predict these things perfectly. 100 years in advance if they wanted to. Okay, but I also think it's also interesting that this means that God would have had to have set this up prior to the creation of man. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it's like all the clues are right there, but they can't figure it out.

Right. I love that, though. But they did know to start killing the kids, though, right? They didn't know. Well, but who did he talk to? Herod was talking to those guys. Like, why are you here? Well, we've come here to worship.

Well, who is he? and then Herod Heard's smart enough to figure out that he could be in trouble because this guy could take his throne away from him. That's right. So it's kind of like they know, but they don't know where. Uh-huh.

And that's the mystery of Jesus throughout, right? I mean, when he's a kid, they don't know. When he's born, most people don't know. When he's right in front of them, they don't know. It's only looking backwards that we get kind of the best picture of it. I mean, what a big picture, though. right? Like you think about that God set these things into motion to align at the time that he had appointed to send his son. And he set all of these stars in these orbits and all into motion. And so, I mean, just to draw the conclusion then that somehow these things have influence over your lives and not the creator who put them into motion. It's, yeah. It's really the deception of astrology, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You think about just the master's touch there. And in, in a, align in the fact that the heavens then predict those things of god because he set them in motion

and then the idea of astrology then predicts the things of the darkness really i mean honestly over over it's it's really an amazing juxtaposition i i i love sort of those two things on opposite ends realizing that that the darkness just just counterfeits it just it just pretends that it has any any power right the real power lies with the king of kings and the uncreated one one who i am who i am the one the one that i am the one who all the stars are bowing down to worship. That's right. That's right. Well, Jesus talks about falling stars and heaven's being shaken, right? Right. And I don't think that that's natural phenomenon because that wouldn't even make sense. Like, we know that if a star was to come within

a light year of earth, we would all be dead, let alone fall into our atmosphere. That's talking about the powers, the heavenly host, the rulers of this age, the principalities, the thrones. They are being shaken. Isaiah 24, 21 through 24 really talks. about this and says God's going to punish the host of heaven in heaven and then the kings of the earth on earth. And that language is shaking of the stars. So yeah, it's a punishment of the fallen watchers, really. Guys want me to give you one more? Give it to us.

All right. It takes us to the end of the book. These are kind of related. I guess I'll give you two, but they're kind of related. So in Revelation 21, you have the Holy City, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. And I heard growing up that people were actually could see this with a telescope. They saw that it was on its way to Earth. I'm sorry if that happened, we're all toast because this thing is a 1,200 miles width, 1200 miles on length and 1,200 miles tall. And if that thing hits Earth, we're all dead. Sounds like a sci-fi thing, like for the Borg. Totally. It's a bored cube, man. Yeah.

The Kaaba, by the way, in Islam is a black cube. And it's kind of like the anti-cube of Revelation 21. And it's also moon worship, by the way. That's present. So this cube, one of the predominating features of it when you read that chapter is that it has all these 12s associated with it. And those 12s are related to the 12 tribes and then to the 12 apostles. And this is because Jesus is now doing something. through this cube, which he calls the bride of Christ.

The cube is actually his church, and it's being symbolized through this geometry. And the church is now going to emulate the heavens in a perfect way. And this is where it gets kind of crazy. All right. So you have these dimensions that are part of what it is to be a cube. And these dimensions are related to the sun and the moon. And so just kind of long story short, if you take some of the numbers and I could go through this in detail, not sure if I want to do that, because I'm not sure how well it translates on a radio podcast. But if you look at some of the numbers, like, for example, 12,000 furlongs, which is a furlong is, I think that's the way the King James translates it. If you read like modern translations, they'll say a stadia, these are all related to each other. All these dimensions, like an inch, a foot, a pig. a stadia or furlong, they're all related to the human body. So like an inch is the length of

the tip of your thumb to the middle knuckle. And a foot is the average length of a person's foot in those days. And a pace is how far it would be from the back of your foot. If you took one step and then another step and went back to the very same pace at the end of your foot, that's how long that is into being a yard. Okay. And a mile is melee. So it's like a mile is a thousand paces. 12,000 furlongs. Okay, so all these things are related to the human being, our bodies. Man is the measure of all things, as the ancient saying goes. 12,000 furlongs equals 7,920,000 feet. Who cares? Well, the earth in miles, and remember, mile is a related, a related measurement based on a human being. The earth in miles is 7,920 miles.

So 7,000, 7,920,000 feet, 7,920 miles. There's a one-to-one correspondence there. Same thing happens with regard to the number of sides and right angles in a cube. There's 24 right angles in a cube. Right angles 90 degrees. Multiply this out. You get 2,160. This happens to be the diameter of the moon.

Hmm. It doesn't sound like an accident. So you get these weird things going on with this cube where it's, related somehow to the earth, it's related to the moon, there's other measurements where it's related to the distance between the earth and the sun. All kinds of weird things are going on, because as in heaven, so on earth. And what God is doing, again, is he's creating his church to take over for what these heavenly beings have fallen short of. And we will end up ruling like the stars of heaven, as Daniel said. So that's one thing that's pretty interesting.

And then you get the last thing I want to talk about is an age. So this is something I actually brought up. I was listening to our discussion on Atlantis. And I brought this up at the very end of that. And I was glad I did. People can go back and listen to that. It's near the end of that episode. And we were talking about procession of the equinoxes.

Procession of the great year. What this is is that, you know, a solar year is determined by how many days it takes for the sun to get back to the same spot, 365. and a quarter days. That's a solar year. There's also something called a great year. And in the great year, the earth, because when it spins, it doesn't spin perfectly vertically. It spins like a top that's about, that's starting to fall over. And so it's north, the north pole of the earth is constantly shifting over the course of a kind of a circle. This takes 26,000 years, 25,788 years for it to make one cycle when it does that. You can approximate this that if you take the year and divide it by 12, you end up getting 216 again. That's the diameter of the moon. That's those right angles in a

cube. This is how long it takes for the earth to go 112th of the way through the great year. And the 112th of the year is important because that would be a great month or what they call platonic month. It's a symbolic number, but it's a, it's pretty close to what it would be. Now, if you go out in the night sky, the 12 constellations are a little bit different in size from each other, so some are a little bigger, some are a little smaller. But the way that the Greeks talked about this was that you move from one age to the next age.

And the way this is measured is that when you, you go out like on the summer solstice, okay, and you look at a specific time like midnight and you see when, what constellation is pointing due east. And for 2,160 years, the same constellation, if you go out on that same day every year, it's going to be, relatively speaking, that constellation that you're going to see. And then the next 2160, it will be one of the, it will be the next one in the 12. So right now, we are in the constellation of Pisces, and this is the fish. Okay. And Christians were known as little fishes. Jesus has said, I'm going to make you fishers of men. Baptismal pools were called fish ponds. All kinds of weird fish things associated with Christianity. They would,

you know, even today we see the Icthus, which is an acronym for Jesus Christ, God, Lord, our Savior, something like that. And that's a fish. And you see that on the back of people's cars. Well, what does that, where's that come from? I believe it comes from Pisces, because when Jesus came, he was essentially ushering in the age of Pisces. And they called it an age. Okay. So when you move from one age to the next, when it comes to a great year, you're moving from one constellation to the next. Now, it just so happens that the next constellation in order of the great year, it goes backwards from a solar year.

So in a solar year, Pisces is followed by Ares. But in the great year, Pisces is followed by Aquarius because it's going backwards. So that song, Age of Aquarius, it's marking this idea that we're right at the cusp of moving out of Pisces and into Aquarius. So into this, we have Revelation 20 and Jesus talking about, John talking about the millennium. Satan will be bound for a thousand years. So I have a little bit different eschatology than most people. I'm not a pre-millennialist at this point. I used to be. Premalennialism is where essentially believe that there's going to be a future

thousand years that's preceded by a terrible, terrible time, like a tribulation. That thousand years will be like this perfect harmony and bliss. And then at the end of that, there will be something terrible will happen and then the heavenly state will be ushered in. Okay. This is where they get the thousand years from. So I hold to something a little bit different. It's more like a, it's more like a spiritualization of that thousand years because none of the numbers in Revelation are literal. They're all symbolic. And in that text, it says that Satan is bound for a very specific reason. He's bound from deceiving the nations. He can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years. Well, that's exactly what we've been seeing happen for 2,000 years since Pentecost.

Prior to Pentecost, the nations were being deceived. Now the nations are no longer being deceived. They're being saved. And we've spent this whole show talking about how important that is. So what Revelation says is that at the end of that thousand years, Satan will be released to wreak havoc. And then, you know, God will swoop in and he'll save his people. And then essentially the eternal state will happen. So in other places in Paul and other parts of the New Testament, they talk about two ages. We live in the present age, or sometimes called the present evil age.

And then there's the age to come. Well, if we were to put, if we were to overlap this, like, what does that mean? If we were to overlap this with a platonic month, what that would mean would be that the present age is the age of Pisces, the age that Christ ushered in and brought this whole new transformation of the world, this saving of people, bringing them to God. And then the age to come would be the next age. That would be the age of Pisces, whatever that's going to be. And by the way, Aquarius. I'm sorry, Aquarius, yeah, Aquarius. And Aquarius, so it's like right now where we are, where we are on the Great Year calendar is essentially December 30th or 31st.

And Aquarius, whenever it begins, and nobody really is quite sure that will essentially be January 1st of the great year. So it's not like we're in March or June or, you know, September. We're literally at the very end of the great year. This whole cycle is about to start over again. So the thought is, what if the millennial, the thousand years is actually can be equated with an age and the age to come. If that was the case, then in the way that I look at eschatology, Satan would be bound for the last 2,000 years to not deceive the nations.

And then he would be unleashed right at the end of that thousand years, which in this way looking at it would be basically right about now. Is this like the start of the fourth age? Well, so, yeah, we don't know. Like, there's been all kinds of ages. We do know, written history essentially goes back to the age of Taurus, the bull. And you have all kinds of bull worship taking place before Abraham. And then Abraham ushers in the age of Ares, the ram and sacrifice. Sacrifices lasts for 2,000 years. And then Jesus ushers in the age of Pisces. Well, wouldn't this be the fourth, if you're talking about the cube, you got those ages, and this will be the fourth? fourth part of the cube? I haven't thought about that, a four-sided cube, yeah. I don't know, I don't know.

The Tesseract or whatever? The Tesseract, right? It's always a cube. What about it's a Rubik's Cube, though? In the Justice League, the Cube, too. This is an 80s show. Is this the beginning of the fourth age, the completion of the cube? I don't know what it is, man, but it's a really strange thing.

And there's actually a church father named Origin who spoke about this very thing. He speculated about it and said, I don't know, but I think this makes the most sense of many ages to come. and the present age and the age to come. And he had no skin in the game because he lived like 1,800 years ago. So it's not like this was going to happen in his lifetime. Yeah, it's all connected. Yeah, you can. You can connect it if you think about the, we talked about the alignment that happened at the birth of Jesus.

You know, if God has, which he has, he's ordained all things in his timing. These things could coincide. They would. And the thing about it is that this actually fits with the way John's been talking about the constellation. throughout his book. I'm not pulling this out of left field. I mean, he's been doing this the whole time. So why would I think that he would stop?

Right. That's a good point. I'm not saying that this is going to be the case. I hate date setting and stuff. I don't know. I think it's interesting and worth thinking about. I wish there would be some scholarship that would look into it a little bit more. This is now when you announce your book.

22 reasons crisis coming back in 22 by Doug Van Dorn. We already missed that. We're getting to the end. You'd launch it with a month left. You'd be like, you've got a lot of confidence. I think we have lost the ability to see the pattern, for sure, as a human race. Whatever has happened to us, we've almost gone to sleep, and we've lost the ability to see these things mirror,

and they repeat. History repeats. Things come back around. The sun comes up every day. The moon comes out every night. The way that God framed things is there's little clues in all of these. these systems that we're a part of. And I don't know, human beings just, I think we just get used to the world being so

magical, because it is magical. I mean, all of this is, if you stop and you just, you have a moment where you, you have a sober weed moment and you're like, what we're all a part of. For whatever reason, when you smoke weed, that's when you're like with your buddies. And you're like, oh, man, this is all crazy. And you have all these high ideas. Ideas, as you can call it. High ideas, yeah.

But that's the moment, you know, when most people just step back and they just, they realize the story that they're a part of. But I just think we've lost the ability to see. And when Luke and I go back in this show and we talk about the giants and where they were and what they were building and why they were building it. And there's this whole history that we haven't been taught. And there's all these creatures involved in it. It's never random. Things are never random. The idea that God created the skies and the stars to declare his glory.

and that humankind in astrology has decided that the stars instead will declare ours. And isn't that a picture of just the deception? I find it. I mean, it's been mind-blowing in a lot of ways to just to understand the way that the ancients understood and laid things out and the non-accidental part. And I think, Nate, I'm always blown away when we talk about how so much of the stuff is only visible from above. And somehow they were able to do this. And we've had the episodes in the pyramids, Doug, where we've talked about.

the preciseness of the alignment and the way they sat and the angles. And it's unbelievable. And you realize that we know less now than we did then. And I think that, you know, as far as this show's concerned, something to tell people is that the blurry creatures, as fun as they are and interesting to talk about, is that the Bible actually encompasses that whole world. And God has a plan for the blurry creatures, just like he has a plan for us. And if they're fallen blurry creatures, then God's going to punish them. And none of them are going to be able to not worship him, you know, whether they worship him against their will or not. If the one-third is kind of a picture of how many rebelled, two-thirds didn't rebel. And they're still in alignment with him. They're still

doing what he wants them to do, both up there and down here, however they interact with us. And so, you know the bible is just full of this of this worldview that we just are we're not used to seeing and and there's there's there's there's meaning to the blurry creatureness you know one episode we did a while ago this idea that that that Jesus is outside of time this idea that all the other created blurry creatures are inside this time machine right they can manipulate inside some of them have a little bit more powers than others but these constellations going back and forth kind of reminds of alpha of alpha and omega time going forward time going backwards they're all subject to it but christ isn't it's interesting the way the constellations might mirror time it's so they're also they're also

mirroring the law so um we we talk about the natural laws right gravity is a law of nature well so are the motions of the planets they do exactly what god wants them to do and that that right there is a picture of what he wants us to do on the moral realm. We're supposed to obey him and do what he wants us to do. That's what Israel was supposed to be around the tabernacle. And of course, we all blow it, but the Lord didn't blow it. And that's why we're able to have this conversation. That's right. So here's my last question, Doug. What's the next big sign in the heavens coming? Well, I mean, there could be little ones. I don't know. But to me, it would be this, that it would be this movement from Pisces to Aquarius.

And, you know, so it takes, it takes to 72 years for one degree of that circle to go around. So it's not like you can predict a day. People have tried to do this with like 2012 and stuff. And I think that's actually interesting. Maybe we entered into that age in 2012. I don't know. Like we're in some weird times right now. We all know that.

And so maybe a switch has been flipped. I don't know. but just this movement out of one age to the next. To me, that's something to take pretty seriously. It's certainly a heavenly sign, but it's not something that I'm going to die on a hill for. I could be totally wrong about this. Yeah, well, I love it because, you know,

we talk a lot about giants on the show, building these megalithic, like, Stonehenge to the summer solstice, and they understood these things, and they were building these stone circles all over the world. For a reason, with mathematical precision, And we're just the dummies. Especially modern things have no idea. Like we didn't even know what a star is.

We can't see them because our skies are so bright at night. Yeah, we got people making millions, too, being in foot models. We've got people making millions being foot models. Smoggy. We've gone back. We have gone backwards. We have gone backwards. I love this episode, Doug.

You really kind of bring a lot of things we've heard on the show all together in one episode to understand that the ancients were playing that. that celestial chess game and they knew where they were putting the pieces and we're just trying to figure it out now thousands of years later and maybe just maybe we're coming to the end beginning of a new age and some weird blurry stuff's going to start happening and these fallen stars might start walking around yeah i don't know man i i hope it's not the new age i hope that it's the age of of christ coming and doing some really amazing things yeah maybe blurry con will just kick it off Nate maybe that'll be that's the date to look for well Doug we're we're

grateful as always for your for your time and friendship. Talk to people about what what's coming down the pike. Yeah. Yeah. You know, see the stuff specifically the series of lectures on this and the other things you're doing, people can engage in that. Yeah, again, so this talk with with a slides will be at defenderconference.com and that's coming up, I think, November the 4th and should be some more information there. Certainly a whole other presentation as well. That's related to this. with serpent mounds. I'm working hard on trying to get out my longer version of my Q&A companion to the unseen realm, which has like 40 more questions with it, which actually deals with some of the eschatology we talked about tonight. And then I have a commentary,

two-volume commentary on that that would explain each of the questions and answers. So I'm looking forward to getting that out. I hope it will be within the next few months. inside of no yet. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. I want to point out real quick. We have a lot of listeners that are reading or have read The Unseen Realm. Yeah, absolutely. So this will be a really cool piece. Did I ever tell you guys a story of that? I had written this, what I was calling like a supernatural catechism, just questions and answers. And on a whim, I decided to send it to Heiser. And I didn't know him. I had interacted with him on a message boards before, but I sent it over to him and seen if anything would happen. He writes me back. Like, he doesn't write anything.

anybody back because even back then he was that busy. He writes to me back and goes, I love this. I want to publish this. And I was all fired up. And then I get an email an hour later. And he goes, I don't love it anymore. There's stuff in here I don't like. So I think it was mostly because it was dealing with the stuff he didn't like was dealing with stuff he wasn't talking about in his book. He was thinking he could use it for his book. And so I just rode back and I said, hey, man, you can use this any way you want. That's why I send it to you. If you think you can use this for your unseen realm, then do it. And so Lexham ended up publishing that as the question and answer companion to the

unseen realm. I even has the very same cover on it. So I'm kind of proud of that. I think it's pretty neat. And we've ended up striking up a friendship and doing a podcast of our own together called Pyranormal that you can go and check out and stuff like that. So kind of a funny, funny thing. Yeah, that's the attitude to have in this space, you know, just trying to help help people and

who listen to our show. Go buy all Doug's books and get in there because he's been generous with his material on our show and with other people, just trying to get the truth out. But everyone's got to sell a few copies to keep the lights on. So we appreciate you, Doug. It reminds me of that American pop song. Remember this one, Doug? Boy meets girl, waiting for a star to fall. Remember that one? No. That was a hit. That was a hit. Come on, nobody, 80s? Whatever. I'll send you this song after this you'll remember it love you Doug thanks so much I remember when I our first episode with you I was calling your I think I was calling the church phone number leaving messages you remember that I do remember that yeah and I only really ever

answer my home my cell phone because it's just a spam number these days don't let Nate loose on the on the old school phone we light up that landline we're gonna we were gonna get you on the show one way or the other glad we did glad we did for sure it's been great to get it good friendship going with you guys. Yeah, I appreciate you, brother. I'm going to put that song on the outro here. Don't you worry. Then you'll know.

We have to do some, like, audio spots with our guest, Luke. Get him to be like, you're now entering the blurry verse. Do you like, we're doing like a radio show? Yeah. Yeah. We need to start doing that one. Make sure you listen to the Y-105. Yeah.

Now we've got you on your hot mic, be like, I'm Doug Van Dorn, and you're listening to blurry creatures. All right, here we go. This is Doug Van Dorn and you are listening to Blurray Creatures Podcast. And cut. Let's go. This is Doug Van Dorn and you are now entering the Blurryverse. Hey, you got that voice though.

You're like, coming this summer, a blockbuster event of all events. A movie, a film for the ages starring Gary Busey. You're like, this is not a film for the ages. I don't know.