Blurry Creatures - EP: 161 The Game of Gods with Carl Teichrib

Episode Date: March 29, 2023

Like a sniper behind enemy lines, this week's guest Carl Teichrib does not view his position in the world as a spiritual spectator. Carl is the author of the Game of Gods, a comprehensive investigation into the changing nature of Western civilization and the revolutionary replacement of the existing Judeo-Christian framework with a new, and yet ancient paradigm. In this wide-ranging discussion, Carl addresses issues surrounding trans-humanism and touches on forgotten themes in Genesis. The original rebellion that began in the Garden of Eden is still alive and well. Carl provides insider intel from his own research and experiences in attending new age and pagan events like Burning Man, Pagan Con, and other global economic and spiritual events. What is happening behind the scenes and how is that driving the direction and trajectory of humanity and civilization? Guest: https://www.gameofgods.ca Intro Song: Suadade "Zayaz"  Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes. and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible.

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I remember the gentleman who was the first director of communications for you. United Nations Environment Program. I know him personally. When his best friend Marie Strong passed away, Marie Strong was the one who gave us the Rio Irr Summit back in 1992, called him up and I said, hey, condolences on the loss of Mr. Strong because they were best friends. And so this gentleman just kind of unpacked what it was like

in those early days when the environmental movement was just starting to gain shape as a political system. He said to me, he said, it was almost a rhetorical question because I didn't have the answer. He said, to the effective, do you want to know why there's a man in the center of UNEP's logo? And he said, it's because in order for us to change the world, we must first change man. We must first change man. Genesis chapter 3 can be said this way.

The fall can be said this way. And think about it in terms of transhumanism and everything else we've just described, when you transgress God, you transform. That's what this boils down to. By transgressing God's laws, by transgressing God, you now become as God. You now transform. You have now just challenged Yalway, and you've walked away from that challenge with this claim. But if you want to transform, transgress.

The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, if they found out of our Earth, they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom.

That's a big deal. Well, Carl, we're excited, man. We'd love to talk about Game of God. I think this is a good time as any in this last month of all things that are happening, even the last three years, honestly, right? I know. We would love just to take that where you'd like to go with it. We'd love for you to break down your thoughts on what's happening.

I know you talk a lot about the reshaping of Western civilization and how that relates to eschatology and also to what we're going to experience, right? So the removal of really our Christian values in the West. And then we know, and then we're tracking with you. We've talked a bit to this point about Nate, the idea of this new religion coming about, right, which is the return to the old gods, if you will. So we would love to just to unpack your brain. I know you've done a ton of research on this, and they just drop this knowledge on us.

We're just super excited. Well, no, I mean, gentlemen, this is a pleasure to be with you. I think one of the things that we need to recognize, and we do it, I mean, you've just, actually, Luke, you just mentioned this a couple of moments ago. is that we are entering a phase with a new religion. And I teach a course on secular trends. It's a modular course, a 20-hour course over the space of one week. I do it at a Bible College in southwest Saskatchewan, a little college called Miller Bible College.

And I tell my class up front in the course is entitled secular trends. And I tell my class right up front, look, if you want to know what the secular trend is, it's phasing to spirituality. it's not hardcore atheism, it's not humanistic secularism, you know, the boogeyman of the 60s and 70s, and then of course we had the rise of intellectual atheism that really kind of started galloping forward back 15, 20 years ago, and it still has massive inroads, especially within the realm of universities and popular culture. but really even the atheistic world is there is talk of, well, what does spirituality look like? Because secularism, specifically secularism, and I think that Jacques Oluul, the French philosopher and theologian was absolutely correct, that secularism is just the intermediary period that pause between one dominant religious worldview being phased out and a new one entering the picture. And what's ironic with this is it's not a new one at all.

It's an old, old worldview. It's the worldview that the early church emerged out of, which was a pagan mindset, a Romans One mindset. And so I see this as a return to that Romans One position that essentially says that man and nature itself is all part of the divine, however you may define that. The concept of oneness is something that plays out heavily in my book, this idea, this notion that God,

man in nature are essentially the same. They all share a commonality. At their core, they're really one. That's what the new age teaches. That's what you see within the realm of the occult. The bottom line is that God is not transcendent. God is not separate. God can be you and God can be the mountains and God can be the deities of the ancient world revisited now through the cycles of nature. Whereas the biblical position, the biblical worldview is that God is separate, distinct, utterly unique. And I appreciate the work that Dr. Peter Jones has done with Truth Exchange, his organization. He's really probably done the most to hammer this home to recognize that the God that we serve in the Bible is fundamentally different than the creation.

So instead of oneism of the way that the pagan will views, views nature and the divine, Christianity views reality not as dualism, but as twoism. So God being one and then everything else being distinct and separate from him. Everything else is, there's a unique qualifier between him and creation. And honestly, gentlemen, I think that, I mean, it's so fundamental. It's so basic. And yet that kind of becomes the foundation we have to start to begin to work with. So I've had the opportunity, not a lot of opportunities, but I've had opportunities

to share in certain pagan circles. I've gone to lots of different pagan events. And when you have those opportunities to have those kinds of conversations, Where do you go? You actually go right down to what is basic. Is reality oneism or is reality twoism? And the very fact that twoism exists and can't subsume into your onus perspective or a raises questions about the philosophical underpinnings of your position. You know, it's interesting, but that really boils down to it to what this is. Is this a world becoming one? Well, politically, you know, we see that the thrust of history.

saying that's where we need to move. Are religions becoming one? Well, I mean, I go to the Parliamental World religions and while they don't talk about harmonizing, they talk about unifying around common causes, around the common ideals of oneism. And so while we have diversity, all that diversity is being channeled towards this idea that we actually need to become one. The biblical position, of course, is quite the opposite. We're not a lot of own saviors. Our creator, Jesus Christ, is our savior. So those are some of those distinctions, like literally the foundational distinctions that I find that we need to start to wrestle with as we engage in this culture, which, you're right, is increasingly pagan. And it really is

interested in even that old paganism. Right. And that's something like we talk a lot about on our show, Carl, we get into sort of like the ancient times, the, you know, the megalithic societies, the golden age. And we use creatures to talk about these things. We talk a lot about the giants and the, and the kind of world that they created, right? They were trying to bring heaven on earth. They were trying to defy God in this like advanced technological fashion. And, you know, people still see, they still see like remnants of, of these dynasties, whether it's megalithic construction or it's actual some of these, we think some of these creatures that people are still spot to this day, like, you know, some people still have giant encounters.

Some people still run into, you know, things like Bigfoot and all these weird things. And so we try to filter all of the creature encounters and this alternate history through the biblical lens. So we get into a lot of these topics of transhumanism. And, you know, we talk a lot about the golden age. So. And it's relation to eschatology, right? Because the idea that we, that Jesus talks about and in those days will be like the days of Noah. And we know that in the days of Noah, the gods, little G, gods.

they walked and then they were worshipped. And then their progeny hoped to subdue, subdue the earth, right? And we so I love this because we, I know that we are going to go into a, and what you're talking about, this whole paganism and secular worldview is actually the attempt. And we know the occult's actually trying to do this, right, this philosopher king idea to actively take us into a new golden age. I would love your thoughts on how, and how that is, they are, how they, and we talk about

they or how this push, this impetus, whether it be the elites or, you know, the, the powers that be are pushing or trying to shape? How is this, how in your mind is this going to come about, right? Because we have, we've, we're seeing things, right? If you had your eyes open the last, you know, three years, for example, I think you're starting to see some of the strategy really overtly if you look for it. Because, because, listen, like our Western culture was founded on Judeo Christianity, right? We have Christian roots. Even though our founding fathers may have been in some weirder, weirder stuff in the United States here. It very much was a Christian, Judeo-Christian nation.

Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers.

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Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for three-month five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. So how are that how, in your mind, how are they going to replace this? number one. And I know it's a, I want to hear your thoughts on this, but it is being replaced. It kind of has to be if we're going to have this oneness. You talk about this one eventually, right?

There's going to be one ruler. The, the revelation's pretty, pretty specific about the end of crisis going to unite the planet, unite all peoples, which is, is a hard thing to understand if we're looking, if we talk about radical Muslims and Chechens and Russians and all these ethnic people groups that don't like each other. Like how does this happen? Right? So we love your thoughts on what is happening sort of in the underbelly, in the undercurrent that is moving, moving us in this direction.

Because I think you're right. Like I think if you just look around, if you watch the Grammys, if you look at the rise of new ageism and you see they're giving kids books on how to cast spells. Like crazy stuff that would seem crazy to us 80s kids because that's bad stuff. right, but it's being normalized. You know, the undercurrent of this has already been alive and well for a long time, as you gentlemen know. I think, though, first of all, before anything really can become established deep in the culture,

there already has to be conversations that bring some of these ideas into focus well ahead of time. So I'm going to give you an example, and this goes to your point of those ancient pagan ideas. I'm going to read you a section of text. I have it in my book, Game of Gods. This is the closing remarks from the United Nations Secretary General, Boutreau's Galley, at the Rio Earth Summit. Now, for those of you who may not know, the 1990 Rio Earth Summit was the environmental conference that put in place global governance alongside of environmental issues.

So it gave us Agenda 21, the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Convention on Climate Change. The whole climate change narrative has so much of its roots grounded in the 1992 Rio Earth Summit. It was a really political summit, massively political. You had scores of heads of state. I can't remember how many. I think 172, if my memory serves for me, correct? 17,000 or so NGO participants.

This is government. And yet, as the conference opened, they had a ship named Gaia, a Viking ship that sailed from Europe to Rio de Janeiro, dock in the harbor, and the entire event had a very paganesque feel to it. So at the end of the Rio summer, with all these heads of states, again, it's all politics, right? Butros Boutros says this. I should like to conclude by saying that the spirit of Rio must create a new form of good citizenship. After loving his neighbor as the Bible required him to, post-Rio man must also love the world, including the flowers, birds and trees, every part of that natural environment that we are constantly destroying.

Over and above the moral contract with God, over and above the social contract concluded with men, we must now conclude an ethical and political contract with nature, with this earth to which we owe our very existence and to which gives us life. To the ancients, the Nile was a god to be venerated, as was the Rhine, an infinite source of European myths, or the Amazonian forest, the mother of forest. Throughout the world, nature was the abode of the divinities that gave the forest, the desert, or the mountains of personality which commanded worship and respect. The earth had a soul. To find that soul again, to give a new life, that is the essence of Rio. I'm sorry, gentlemen, that is flat out pagan in a big P, capital P, sense of the word,

married into a political ideology. And so before anything can really become mainstream, There already needs to be a current that's observable within intellectual, academic, elite circles. And that was already visible going back, golly, to the late 1960s, early 1970s, the very first Earth Day that took place, happened in April 22nd, 1970. And something to the effect of 20 million American citizens, mostly schoolchildren, participated in that first Earth Day. And then they published a handbook. I've got it on the shelf over there. grabbed it. And the environmental handbook was given to schoolchildren and classes literally across Canada in the United States. And it opens up with this claim that what we need is a new religion

and we need to get rid of the Judeo-Christian religion because it doesn't do anything in terms of its service to nature. Oh, my wife just, thanks, babe. Yes. And so allow me just to pop a couple of quotes out because now all of a sudden, I mean, to the point of the shift, this is, where does it begin? Well, you can lay the roots beyond this, obviously, but here is where things get really interesting because it's within our time frame, okay? I mean, I was born in 68. I was just a little shister back then, but golly, you know, it's shaped the generation before us, right? Yeah. So it goes on to say, no new set of basic values has been accepted in our society to displace those of Christianity. Hence, we shall continue to have a worsening ecological crisis until we reject

the Christian axiom that nature has no reason for existence, save to serve man. It goes on to say a little bit before that, what we do about ecology depends on our ideas of the man-nature relationship. More science and more technology are not going to get us out of the present ecological crisis until we find a new religion or rethink our old one. And it talks to lots about replacing Christianity with something else. And so at the end of the handbook, and I'm just going to skip through the list because the list is long, long, long. But at the end of the handbook, it gives alternatives to Christianity.

And these are our social good worldviews that we need to consider as we have rejected the old norms. It seems evident that there are throughout the world certain social and religious forces, which have worked through history towards an ecologically and culturally enlightened state of affairs, let these be encouraged. Gnostics, Hitts, Taoists, Catholics,

Jews, Taoists, biologists. I'm not sure why biologists are there, but whatever. What's the other saying? It's probably written by a biologist, you know,

it's like, maybe. Yeah, count me in. Job security. It goes on, Quakers, Sufis, Tibetans,

shams, shamans, Bushmen, American Indians, and it goes on and on. The list is long. Yeah, I get it. The list is long.

All primitive cultures, communal and ashram movements, since it doesn't seem practical even desirable to think that direct bloody force will achieve much, it would be best to consider this a continuing revolution of consciousness, which will be one, not by guns, but by seizing the key images, myths, archetypes, eschatologies, and ecstasies, so that life won't seem worth living unless ones on the transforming energy side. 1970. It's universalism, and also weirdly paganism.

Totally. Man, the first thing I think about Carl here is right now, and also, well, since the 90s, since the 80s, it's this climate change push too, right? Like this idea, this has become a religious, almost religious calling. And how do you tie those? I mean, it's pretty easy, but I want to hear you tie those two things together because it makes sense, right? We have this push all the time. Like, we got to reduce our carbon footprint and we got to go to zero and here's carbon credits. And yet you have these level-headed, you know, actually.

actual scientists are saying, hey, the Earth's climate is cyclical. And, you know, it doesn't matter. It's snowing in Southern California last week. Right. That doesn't mean anything in this. But then you have these alarmists and they all ride their private jets to Davos. And yet they're telling everybody that you got to make sure the cow farts don't happen and you get an electric car. Is this an extension of what we saw with, you know, I remember doing Earth Day as a kid? Like, I remember that. I remember. I don't know what great it was. And we were like wearing the shirt and we went and planted trees. or something. This was Northern California. Nate, I'm sure you did the same thing.

Well, I went to Christian school, so we didn't get to hear. You guys didn't care about the earth. All right. Yeah. Awesome. And it is part and parcel with it. There's no question about that. I've spent quite a bit of time. I mean, I've been in this, golly.

I've been researching this since the early 1990s, I've been full-time in it since 97. So I've been around the block, so to speak, in terms of doing the homework on things like, the global environmental movement, which ties directly into global governance. It's the same people. Same people, same organizations, same worldview, same projections. I remember the gentleman who was the first director of communications for UNEP,

United Nations Environment Program. I know him personally, when his best friend Marie Strong passed away, Marie Strong was the one who gave us the Rio Earth Summit back in 1992. I called him up and I said, hey, condolences on the loss of Mr. Strong. because they were best friends. And so this gentleman just kind of unpacked what it was like in those early days when the environmental movement was just starting to gain shape as a political, as a political pressure, political system.

And he said to me, he said, it was almost a rhetorical question because I didn't have the answer. He said, to the effect of, do you want to know why there's a man in the center of UNEP's logo? And he said, it's because in order for us to change the world, we must first change man. And I'm like, wow, okay, that's, that's, that's very, very telling. But to the point on climate change, I mean, all right, so since the late 60s, early 70s, back then it was global cooling. I know, right? Yeah, yeah. And then it became global warming and then became climate change and then all these just

became wolkism. You know, it all just blends together. I'm in Canada, all right. I don't have a choice. I have to pay my carbon credits, my carbon tax part of me when I fill up my car at the gas station. It just comes off the price of the pumps, but I don't have a choice. And I look at this legitimately, and it's true, I'm paying a tithe and an offering to Mother Earth. That's essentially what I'm doing.

Because I know the worldview behind the climate change narrative. I understand it. I've rubbed shoulders with these people. I've read the documentation. And just like Bouchos Vuchos Galley's. last part of his speech at the Rio Earth Summit, where we have the climate change agenda emerging out of the modern version of it, talking about how this is really a spiritual contract, a spiritual renewal back with the earth, hello, hello, it's religious. Essentially, it's religious.

Even the political side of this has to be essentially religious. So when you consider global governance, world federalism, and I used to go to lots of world federalist meetings back in the day and I've been to different United Nations meetings, not as press, but because I've been accredited and allowed into the door, and I won't get into all the details how you do it, but there's ways of doing it. Over and over again, you hear the messaging that we're about to save the world. What we are engaging in is the salvation of the earth. And there's a messianic complex. There is a sense that man is the one who guides our destiny. Man is the one who is in charge. We are gods now, and we can't be capricious.

That's what Marie Strong wrote in one of his books. And so there is this religious component to globalization, even within the political side, because it's basically making an alternative messianic claim, an alternative salvation claim through our unity politically. We save the world. In fact, we have our own priesthood. We have our academic political priesthood. We have our own eschatology. If we don't fix the world, it will burn. We have our holy writ, things like Agenda 21. It's a religion. Not only is it a religion, it's a cult because they

proselytize in the hopes that they can win you over to their ideology. So we have global citizenship education in the public school. You see examples of this roll through with television and movies. You can't run away from the narrative. It's in your face. If data management is slowing down your business, you need the Intuit ERP. If one entity is here and one here, and one here, and one here, you need the Intuit ERP.

If scaling your business feels like start starting over, you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI-Native ERP solution that consolidates, migrates, and automates, all in one place. Learn more at intuit.com slash ERP. I mean, it sounds like to me, really, I mean, if you look into this, none of the people at the top of this actually do anything to change their lifestyle.

They don't practice what they preach, so to speak. And it feels very much like a hive mind. Is the global warming thing just, it's just to get everyone in line, and they're using this moral feeling that you have. Everyone's emotional system has been hijacked, as what I say in the last couple of years. They don't understand where it's coming from and how it's being used against them, because they've only been taught to use their sort of cognitive, rational brain, but they don't have no emotional intelligence to realize your emotions are being

manipulated and used against you. Wake up. And none of these people, they're all flying their private jets. They do not care about the environment. We just had a massive environmental disaster in Ohio. Nobody cares. Nobody said a word about it. They do not care about the environment.

And I think some Christians will get in face and say, you don't care about the environment because you're a Christian. It's like, no, I do. but it's not my God. It's not the thing that I serve. It's not above, it's a tool for us to survive here, but it's not, it's not above all that. So is it, is it, is it the hive mind is just collecting people and getting them in line so then that ultimately there's something else coming? You raise a couple of important points. First of all, to the issue of Christianity and environmentalism. I grew up in a farm. I still live in a very rural area. Good for you, Carl. Good for you, Carl. That's where you need to be. Get out of the city. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, presently, my, my, office is in a little village of 200 people. All my neighbors are farmers. This is just the world we live in. And I'm sorry, when it comes to true environmentalism, we take it from the approach to that, especially as Christians, that we are to be stewards. Correct. Stewards mean that we have management over something. It doesn't mean that we abuse it or destroy it. We recognize the value of it because

of the one who created it. And so we're the true environmentalists. However, and this is where things get interesting. After the 1970 Earth Day, the charge had been laid at the feet of Christians and at the feet of the church specifically, that you have caused harm to the environment. In fact, your worldview is the reason why we have environmental degradation. So, how did the Christian church respond? We didn't respond by challenging the assumptions. We didn't. We didn't challenge the assumptions. And that's to our shame. So we didn't challenge the assumption. And then we accepted the charge against us. and then we adopted the world's view of how to fix it. Shame on us.

Because it wasn't really ever about saving the environment. It was about bringing us in line, really more along the lines with a spiritual ideology, a pagan perspective. That's really what this boils down to when you see how this worldview comes into play. So we should be environmentalists in the true sense of the word, not serving the creation, but serving our God who is the creator of nature.

But we've slipped into a Romans one mindset, even within the church. Now, to the issue at hand about, you know, do these people care? Do the global elites care if they're flying to Davos and their private jets? No, no, no, no. But even to think that they might, you're missing them the point. And I think the famous humanists from the last century, Bertrand Russell in his book, The Impact of Science on Society, makes a really important point. I'm going to read a quote from you. I've got it on my screen in front of me here.

This is what he says, and you can pull a lot of things out of this quote. I do not pretend that birth control is the only way in which population can be kept from increasing. There are others. Or, as I remarked, a moment ago, has hitherto been disappointing in this respect. But perhaps back theological war may prove more effective. If a black death could be spread throughout the world, once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely, without making the world too full. There would be nothing in this to offend the conscious of the devout or to restrain the ambitions of nationalists. The state of affairs might be somewhat unpleasant. But what of that?

Really high-minded people are indifferent to happiness, especially other peoples. A scientific world society cannot be stable unless there is a world government. And to your point, his quote, really state of affairs might be somewhat unpleasant. whatever yeah but what of that really high-minded people are indifferent to happiness especially other peoples that's remarkable that's telling sounds a lot sounds a lot like 2020 there like this is yeah

i mean i mean we we know that there's this push to depopulate i mean that they wrote it on the georgia guidestones and then they say that quiet part out loud like just in that quote but also some of the you know the bill gates and et cetera of the world are on record saying that we need to decrease the... I mean, to me, that's... It isn't surprising. Right. It's a tenet of this new religion that we are less...

Even if we're to be gods, we're less important than the agenda, right? Yes, yes, yes. And then to that point of, don't they care? So I go to... It's no secret. I go to Burning Man. When I can, I've gone three times. I've been to regional.

And I've done a whole bunch of Burning Man stuff in the virtual space. And one of the conversations that you end up having or even hearing among burner participants is the question of their carbon footprint. Because that Burning Man, if you know anything really much about the event, things burn. The effigy in the middle burns, the human effigy burns, the temple burns, lots of artwork burns. Pretty much every night from Wednesday on, something seems to be burning, and especially Friday and Saturday and Sunday. And then the question always is asked is, and this is,

I'm talking about conversations on, on Pliya at Burning Man. We bring generators, we were trucking stuff up out from Reno, 100 miles away, that's the closest city.

A city of 80,000 appears, not only are we burning things, but we are burning fuel. We've got to keep the whole place running with generators for the, for the duration of, of eight days for the event

and even longer for the build. Well, what about that carbon footprint? What about the, you know, the environmental, damage caused by that. And I mean, the magnitude of what is being used up in terms of resources is pretty staggering. It's a city of 80,000 people being constructed and then deconstructed.

But when you have these conversations and even overhear their own conversations, they justify it because they have a higher ideal. They're the ones who are shaping the world. They're the ones who have the vision. They have the vision of the anointed is. The economist Thomas Soll would say their vision of the anointed allows them to have that latitude. We call that hypocrisy.

They don't have to see it that way. They don't. It kind of reminds me of like maybe some of the pre, the golden age societies where they're sacrificing their children to the gods, to, it's like they are willingly giving up something of value or to the greater good, right? So I just can't imagine. And that's one of the arguments I have with a lot of my friends who are sort of these woke Christians who think that humans were just, they were just doing drugs back then. They

weren't actually interacting with entities. No one, no one sacrifices their own child for, you know, for games. Something was going on that you don't, and we don't understand. It's that vibe to me, right? How do you get people to do something that drastic? Right. You have to, you have to give them a religion to participate in. And it has to be real. There has to be a component to this that draws them in to be able to make a decision like what you've just described. I will sacrifice my child or I will give a certain round of my produce to the gods. I see that really not that much different in terms of, of course, it's drasticness, but it really isn't that much different.

Well, maybe it's not any different if I'm honest about it. as you consider abortion as a tool for sustainable development that I can pull quotes out from global governance environmental documents, bring that to fruition. In fact, I think I even note that in my book in one location where we will sacrifice our economy, we will sacrifice our morals, we will sacrifice, we have sacrificed already pretty much everything on the altar of environmentalism. And why? Because environmentalism, as I understand it, watching the environmental movement as it's growing, really has a religious spiritual component to it. Absolutely. And in fact, if you go back into the ancient days with Israel, the gods and goddesses that inhabited the nations around, regardless of which culture it was, what was the Egyptians or the Assyrians, what were those gods and goddesses? What did they reflect? What were they a part of? always part of the natural cycle. Gods and goddesses of fertility, of wine, of sexuality, of victory, of war.

All of them had some type of natural connection or some contact point back into natural cycles and processes. None of them stood apart the way Yahweh does. They always had this connecting point back into the natural world. It's no real, I can't really say it's that much different today. We just maybe make it more theoretical and academic and we call it Gaia. But again, you know, that still pulls from that same route. Carl, you know, Carl, you teach it at a Christian school, and so, and obviously, you're Christian, and this is a biblical worldview that you espouse. Can you take, do you take this all the way back to the garden?

When we talk about ancient paradigm, is this the same from a biblical worldview? looking at a repackaging of the initial deception that is that you need to eat of this. If you eat of this, you can be greater, right? This is the, you can be like the gods. Is that somewhat we're seeing in this new religion as we frame it? Absolutely. We can be as God. It all boils down to Genesis 3.

In fact, one of the blocks of time I have when I give my course is to dive deep. into Genesis chapter 3 because that is the that's the first lie and all lies from then on stem back to that original fault in fact we can even look all the way forward to Thessalonians where we see the man of sin taking the throne and declaring that I am God hold on that's just Genesis 3 yeah that's just the repackaging of Genesis 3 again we replay this over and over and over again so what is the fundamental problem of Genesis chapter 3. By the way, Genesis chapter 3, the lie in Genesis chapter 3, you can be as God, you'll be, you'll be wise, you'll have knowledge, you'll know good and evil, your eyes will be

opened. There's a half-truth in there. We do now know the, have the knowledge of both good and evil. It's both there. But we are now fundamentally flawed because we have decided to transgress God, and that was actually the point. So what happens in Genesis chapter 3? And this is a bit of an eye-opener. It's so simple, so, so simple. But I think sometimes we've overlooked it. And I know some of the students in my class

have been blown away by this. Genesis chapter 3 can be said this way. The fall can be said this way. And think about it in terms of transhumanism and everything else we've just described, when you transgress God, you transform. That's what this boils down to. By transgressing God's laws, by transgressing God, you now become as God.

You now transform. You have now just challenged Yon way, and you've walked away from that challenge with this claim. But if you want to transform, transgress. That's the bottom line. So what is transhumanism all about? We transgress the norms, the limitations that we already have. we seek to become godlike. It's Genesis chapter 3. I've spent a lot of time, not so much in the last few years, but before, from roughly 2008 to 2015, 16, attending

transhumanist meetings, both in person and in the virtual space. And again, that godlike sense is there. We are working to become as gods. We do now through science and technology. But it's the same thing, transgress and you will transform. When I go to evolution, events like Burning Man and other evolutionary transformational events, the same principle applies. The fact, it's considered to be a liminal space, that container, where now you can transgress the norms and the values of the culture that you have just walked out into this new liminal zone, this in-between space between what the world is, that you know, and the world that is coming and the world to be. So now you transgress that. And now you live the experience.

of your transgression for a period of time and you walk out of it transformed. That's, you know, you're looking at what Paul says in the New Testament too, and it's to throw off the old things by the transforming of your mind. It's to be a new creation, right? Right. And that actually, the irony in all of this is that actually happens by surrendering your life to Christ. And yet Genesis 3 would say, no, if you transgress God, you can transform into a God.

God or God be God like. It's so fundamental and yet I feel like so many people miss this. I love the way you put that because I haven't thought about, I've thought about this, but not in that specific sense. And it does make so much sense. So if we look backwards, Carl, and we see this, what about looking forward? So this point in time looking forward with this framework as it pertains to maybe eschatology and what you see as the coming of the new golden age.

And what we see it we know is going to happen in the end times. How do you see this playing out? I mean, I know what the goal is for this movement, but how do you see this playing into the part when we look at biblical eschatology and the end of days? I see this playing out as bookends. Really, I do believe that the end will turn around and look like the beginning,

specifically in the sense that it builds itself out of that lie. out of the idea that we are as gods, it has to. It has to come full circle. There has to be a return to this idea that we will, that we will transgress and we will become God. Like, we will maybe now do this, not just as an individual, let's say through, if I was an esoteric philosopher, through ritual and through the application of magic and the pressing of my will, but now instead we do this collectively. And somehow, somewhere, somebody has to lead us collectively. Because otherwise we're just going to go our divergent ways.

And we're going to have to have some type of crisis. I am convinced of that of a magnitude far, far greater than Corona, you know, to bring that into fruition. I'm holding here in my hand a little document. I picked up when I was, this is 23 years ago. Boy, I was a delegate at the United Nations Millennium Forum. I had a lack of a better way of saying it. I had embedded myself with the World Federalist Association, which is the largest pro-world government lobby group in the U.S.

And that was my job for a couple of years to kind of monitor what was happening. And so, yeah, I ended up at the United Nations Millennium Forum as a delegate and picked up this little document. It's not a UN document, but there's not many of these in circulation. And it was being given to all of us who were in attendance. And so in this little document entitled, oh, perfect title, Transformation of the World. Wow. Yeah. So you got little images in here like a world king metering out justice and power.

That looks like it could be out of like Sumaria or Babylon, right? It could be one, it could be an effigy on a temple or in Egypt, right? I know that we're an audio show and wants to listen, but it's this drawing of this central large figure with a world king. A world king. Yeah. A world king who's now on a pedestal. And the pedestal is called the Constitution, as it refers to the idea of a global constitution,

and he is metering out the power between the people and all the different players on the planet. So the person who wrote this, I'm going to butcher his name. Irman. That's horrible. Yermente Sultan Mirat, who was the head of the World Assembly of Turkic peoples. and was right next in line to the president of Kazakhstan,

which, by the way, Kazakhstan and the Stana, the capital city itself, you guys know about that. Crazy, crazy city that just screams global unity. Lots of world interfaith conferences take place and other conferences on world unity and world on one. This happened in Astana. So in this document, it goes on to say, small doubt that the world does need a civilized coordinator

in international relations and in settling global problems. More than that, this coordinator must be a stabilizing factor. Actually, the last ditch authority on the earth. He must win confidence of each man and each nation. People must be stark sure that this coordinator would solve any problem in a just and humane way. And one should be sure that in him he would find understanding and sympathy, that he would treat any nation as his own son, and that he is indeed the last resort. and the man should convince his terrestrial brothers therein by his practical deeds.

Then he goes on, can the world community do without a coordinator? Definitely it cannot. Wow. That sounds like gospel of the Antichrist. It really just, I mean, you're right. I mean, it's messianic. It is, you can't do without it. You can't have this without this.

This is the savior. I got to remind people, that's from a UN. Yeah, that was from the United Nations Millennium Forum, which happened, I think it was May. It was May of 2000, and then in the fall, there was a number of other major millennium events that were all, they all interlocked with each other. But yeah, I was a delegate to the UN Millennium Forum back then. Carl, we talk a lot about Genesis 6 on our show, you know, and we talked to Heiser, Dr. Michael Heiser, extensively about kind of the three fundamental problems in the Old Testament. And most Christians just, they just know Genesis 3. They don't understand any other things going on that are,

sort of rebellions against God. How long do you think that these elites have been pushing for this one singularity, hive mind, antichrist thing? Did it start back then? Is it been, is it old, or is it like a more of an up-and-coming thing? I think, like bookends, the front side of history demonstrates that more, especially specifically with the Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel, which we can't forget also was a city. It was both a city and a tower. That's how it's laid out. And then what we see is a type of parallel that's taking place today, where we now have a babble that's now being built. And in between, we've had a lot of mess.

But we've had bookends. At least that's how I'm seeing it. Bookends on the front side of history saying mankind is unified against God. And we build our tower. We build our technology. We build our city. We build our infrastructure. And in the Targum, the Genesis Targum it has, the tower is capped with an idol wielding a sword and rallying the troops to battle.

So even though that's the legend of it, in terms of the Jewish legend perspective, it's interesting because it gives a sense of a flavoring to the rebellion behind this activity. I don't see, pardon me, I really don't see much difference in terms of what we're doing today. we're building a tower. We're building the infrastructure. And we're shaking our fists at God. We're saying, we're the ones who are in charge. We're building purpose. We're the ones who are building heaven on earth.

The other rebellion, I see, in the early part of Genesis, that needs to come into play, but it's almost never seen, is Genesis chapter four. Genesis chapter four, Kane kills Abel. God then gives him a curse. and the curse is to wander. And so Kane leaves his people. We don't know how old Kane is.

We don't know how many siblings there's been. We're not sure of the time frame, but he leaves. And so he wanders. And that actually is his curse. He's supposed to stay wandering. And Kane is overcome by this. In fact, he cries out to God that this is too heavy to bear. And why is that so hard to bear?

Because he's being stripped away from his security. he's being stripped away from that which he knows. Now he has to wander. And so he's afraid that he will die, he'll be killed. And there is this yearning to go against what God is saying. And God even goes so far as, hey, I'm going to be the one. And this is where the grace of God comes forward. I'm even going to be the one that's going to mark you.

And that will be your protectorate. So what does King? What does he do? He wanders, yes. And then he settles down. And he builds a city. And the first city in the Bible is Enoch, named after his son in Genesis chapter 4. What does that do? It sets in place a principle that says we will create our own artificial Eden.

We build our own security. We replace God's security for one of our own making. God says, you are cursed with his sin, with his curse. I will nevertheless be your protectorate. I will nevertheless offer you my grace. And so as God offers up his grace and says, just do what I say, we rebel and we put our feet down and we build our cities. And then fast forward, we build our babbles. So there's, and then Jacques Oluo, I've mentioned him once before. I don't understand everything Jackal wrote. Some of it is just like over my head.

I don't agree with some of the stuff he wrote, but he's probably one of the only guys who's really fleshed through what he calls the meaning of the city from a Christian point of view and explodes this. with Genesis chapter four outward, and you realize that, oh, we have been in rebellion collectively right from the beginning. Wow. And I think that's something that I'm really thinking about in this episode is how transhumanism is going to bring everyone together in a full defiance against God, and something about language barriers and cultures. And the more freedom a human has, the harder it is for them to wage war against God. And you don't, think about like Tower of Babel was sort of like people are being used you know they're being hijacked and they're being used they don't really need you they don't really care about you they

don't really want you they just need numbers and the bigger the number the better they think they have an odds to to overthrow and take and take god down and so they're going to use sort of your moral system to hijack your mind and then you're going to willingly walk into the slaughter you're going to lay your own life down for the collective and you think you're doing the right thing. You think you're helping. You think it's the moral good. It's the right. Isn't that what we just have experienced over the past three years?

Yeah. 100%. Totally. So there's a saying, it's a cliche, but it is absolutely not a cliche. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Yeah. And that's not a cliche. In fact, if you take a look at Eve and her downfall, the downfall of man in the garden, it was actually good intentions.

Eve did no sin before she directly disobeyed. What the serpent was holding out, what the angel of light was holding out was a promise of goodness. You'll be the same as your creator. You'll be on par with the one who made you. Don't you want that? Why wouldn't you want that? That's not evil. Is it?

It's a good thing. Now you're going to have wisdom. That's a good thing. You're going to have this new knowledge. Your eyes are opened. It's all couched in a positive. I believe she went down the garden path, so to speak, paved with good intentions. At the same time, though, right?

He plays this other position that says that God doesn't, he's keeping you from this. Right. He doesn't want this for you. Like, he's keeping you in the dark. Yes, yes. You deserve this. It's. Yeah, you're always jealous.

He's vindictive. Yeah. I want to ask because I think this question it ruminates in my mind and I want to ask your thoughts on it. As we see things barrel towards this, right? We talk about all of the ear markers and all the things we can see with their eyes. I thought it's interesting too that you talked about the good intentions thing because if there's anything in the last three years, it's like, hey, just do this. That's loving your neighbor.

Or just do this. Just lock yourself in your house. Just give up your job. Just take this medicine. Listen, just that is the loving thing to do. That is how you love your neighbor. And in fact, it's in fact how you enslave yourself, which is ludicrous, right? But my question is not that.

That is just a diatribe. I just thinking about that. But my question is this agenda, do you believe, and this is an opinion piece, because I don't know that we know this necessarily, but do you think that those that are pushing this agenda are, cognizant that this is or cooperating with the darkness in the sense of this is this is how we we bring about the end of days right this is how we bring about in our mind right bring about the philosopher king as the occult will call it this this this this antichrist figure or do you think

that they are in the secular sense they in their pride and in their in their in their self-righteousness and self-morality just think that this are pushing this in that direction for those reasons. I probably is yes and I would imagine but do you think at the highest levels that there is a a definite league or direction to cooperate in this sort of you know I don't know I also explain it like revelation in time sort of plan right to to to bring the nations together to it's Nimrod to bring the nations together to war to war with the with the God the Bible to war to be an enmity with God. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that they, this is just humanity stumbling into

what's going to happen anyway? Or is this, is there a concerted effort that that is the end goal and that they are working, you know, to essentially, you know, militarize and consolidate humanity against God? That's a really interesting question. I think for the most part, it's accidental, accidental in the sense that it's the result of their worldview. And it's not that they have consulted entities asking. I think for the most part, it's done with good intentions. I've rubbed the shoulders with enough of these people to know that for the most part, they believe that what they're doing is righteous, that what they're doing is worthy,

that what they're doing brings purpose. And in terms of those high up, yeah, I've rubbed shoulders with a little bit, as well, including former and individuals who are quite high in the United Nations. In fact, the very first international event I went to was on rebuilding Canada's education system along the lines of the World Core curriculum put forward by Robert Mueller. Robert Mueller put 11 of the United Nations specialized agencies into play, and he was the Undersecretary General, and he was at this event, and we talked, and I mean, spent three days at this event with Robert Mueller.

And he was like a grandpa figure to everybody who was there. It was all rosy cheeks and big smiles and we're doing this to save the planet. But make no mistake when it came to Robert Mueller, his perspective was absolutely spiritual. And he saw it from that perspective of having a spiritual meaning. It wasn't just a secular thing. It was definitely a very spiritual thing. So much so that as he was explaining, and now I'll have to back up just a little bit. So this conference was called the Global Citizenship 2000 Youth Congress, held 1,000 days

before the year 2000. The organizers who put it together were theosophists, came at it from a theosophical point of view. Robert Mueller himself came at it from a theological point of view. And so there was a lot of talk about how what we're doing is awakening mother, awakening Gaia, serving the mother, serving Mother Earth, that type of a thing. And he told all the school children, because these were children who were involved at this conference. It wasn't just educators, but I think there's like eight or ten different schools that were participating. that those who were in attendance, you were all really children of the cosmos. You're all divine.

You're not children of Canada. You are divine. And over and over again, we were told that what we were doing is we were working to save, his words, to save Mother Earth. That's what being a good global citizen is all about. You're engaged in this salvation plan. And he saw it from that spiritual point of view, and it wasn't hidden. At the end of the event, we had Ganesha. the Hindu deity who removes the obstacles with his many arms.

We had a theatrical performance of Ganesha coming before these schoolchildren, telling all the children, the educators, the curriculum writers that were there, that look, just call upon Ganesha. And Ganesha will remove any obstacle from your mind because Ganesha is none other than you. And it was just described to us as we were mirthing the planet of God. I mean, we're living out Robert Mueller's dream from his book, New Genesis, and where he describes this as we are becoming the planet of God. And in all of this, I ended up sitting beside a group of university students who would become future educators, and one of the university students saw through it for what it was. He didn't see it through it critically.

He saw it through it to accept it. He said, what we need to do, and these were his words, make this a virus, no inoculation, infect everyone. You see, that's the real virus. It's the heart-mind virus of Genesis chapter 3. Dude, that's a good point. It makes me think, like, do you think that there's no such thing as sort of an empty vessel? Like, we all are serving some spiritual, we're on a spiritual path, whether we're aware of it or not. Because some people just think that, oh, they're just, I don't get into politics.

I don't talk about religion. And that's kind of their knee-jerk reaction. It's like, it seems, though, God created human. We're all worshipping something and we have to. Whether we're aware of it or not, I think some people just plead the fifth, oh, I'm just not involved. And it's like, well, you're, you can be as atheist as you want, but you still, you tote the narrative and you say the lines.

Yeah, and even being an atheist takes you into that one-est perspective because there's nothing higher than humanity in terms of, I mean, that's it. The divine is nature or man, but it doesn't matter because God doesn't exist. It's just nature. It takes its own, one-est perspective. But you're right. There is this spiritual impulse.

And as we strip away the Judeo-Christian worldview, which has its spirituality grounded in what is true, not necessarily in what we feel, but in who is true. That's where true spirituality has to emerge from. who is true? When we have rejected that, there will be a replacement. There has to be a replacement. In fact, that replacement's always been there. It's been there since Genesis chapter 3. I am convinced of it.

And so is there this longing or this sense to return back to those ancient pagan days? Absolutely. That's the heartbeat of today's neo-pagan world. I haven't been to many. I've been to one, two, three, maybe three or four focused pagan events. I'm not even counting Burning Man in that. I'm not counting transformational festivals. You can argue all of that. I would say that would be like middlecase P paganism, whereas I mean upper, uppercase paganism, self-proclaimed, self-identified paganism. And so the last one I went to in person right before the borders all shut at the very beginning of 2020 was Paganiccan, the largest gathering, indoor gathering of witches, wikins, and neo-pagans in the world. It took place in the, the, the lower side of the San Francisco Bay. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, in San Jose. And what's really interesting, and I mean, okay, as far as I know, I'm the only Christian at this event. I know when I went to PeganaCon in Minneapolis, which is the largest indoor conference of pagans in the U.S. Midwest, the last time I went was 2019 to that one. And I found out later that there were two or three other Christians who were doing. research in paganism and Wicca, and they're there to learn. Because, I mean, honestly, if you're going to engage in these worldviews seriously, as a serious researcher, you're not just writing, or pardon me, not just reading articles about it. You're going to talk to them. More importantly,

you're going to listen to them. You have to hear what they say. And if you can engage in conversations with them at the same time, if those kinds of things happen, awesome. But so I go. Okay, that's what I do. When I have those opportunities, I'll go. So to the point of the ancient worldview with its ancient concepts, I'm going to read you from a little workshop that I attended called Getting Straight with Spirit. Oh, and right above that is ancient Greek heroes and the initiatory quest. I went to that one as well.

Yeah, Getting Straight with Spirit. I love it, dude. A non-binary. You're like, you're Alex, you're Alex Jones in all these events, man. It's like, it's like you go into the Bohemian Grove, but you're just, you're showing up. You're going, hey, by the way, it's like, Alex Jones, Jason Bourne. You're like, I'm just, I'm getting in here. And I'm learning.

But no, go ahead. But I just find that fascinating because I think to understand, like you say in your research, and you have to go and see what they're saying, right? Like. Right. Right. So I guess I've been blessed because I'm stupid. I'm a farm. I don't want to, I don't degrade farmers at all. To be a farmer, it means you have to have, you have to really know your stuff. You have to know soil conditions. You have to be an ace mechanic. There's so, everybody dishes farming as being like simple people. No, no, no. It is seriously serious amount of knowledge. Trust me, I've grown up on a grain farm. Everybody around me are farmers. So, you know, I can. came into this going, all right, what do I do? How do I engage in research? Because again, I wasn't trained in any of this. I don't have that academic background. My thought was, you just go to the source,

right? What else do you do? So that's how I entered this type of work, just going, all right, I'm going to get their reports. I'll get their books. I'll get their documents. And then as opportunity be opened up, I will go to their events. And I've probably been to, I don't know. If I include all the virtual stuff, I couldn't even guess, 50 events, maybe. I don't know, piles and piles. And I've got a couple lined up. I want to be going to this year, including the Parliament of World Religions back in Chicago.

Hey, by the way, guys, if you're doing nothing this August, take the time to come to the Parliament of World Religions. It's a circus. It's a religious zoo. But what's really cool about it is two fronts. One, you'll be able to rub shoulders with people from all kinds of faiths. Every walk of life imaginable. You'll be able to gather documentation, go to the workshops,

understand the interfaith movement, which is really nothing more than the religious component of globalization. And then the other thing that's really cool is people want to talk about their faith. And you have the opportunity to share yours. Carl, it reminds me a little bit of, just hearing about this reminds me a little bit of you know, with a good friend of our show and, and, uh, the late Michael, Dr. Michael Heiser, who would, who would talk about going to UFO conferences and because people were hungry

there and that he would end up talking about things within that paradigm and he really, really ended up just talking to preaching the gospel, right? Right. And it sounds like that. Like I, I find it fascinating. I also, I've got, I want you to continue, but I got some questions at the end about just like what kind of weird spiritual stuff you might encounter because those have to be pretty gnarly places sometimes, like, to put your, insert yourself into.

Anyway. Well, I'll read you this getting straight with spirit because it gets to that point of, of these other deities. And by the way, the whole Wiccan community is, there's such diversity, such diversity within paganism. And there has to be, just like within Christianity, you have an incredible amount of diversity because not everybody agrees with everybody else, flat out, you know? Yeah.

So here we go. This is from this workshop. A non-binary look at source itself, animism and fay, exploring spirit in a state of wholeness before conceptualization of binary perspective. Being non-binary, I've explored gender with gods, spirits, fays, shiny ones, asking why they need gender. Fairy creation, and fairy, by the way, is a subset within the Wiccan community, fairy creation started through an orgasmic exaltation, exaltation of God herself. We will explore these and more,

delving into the alchemical union of polarities into a state of wholeness, oneness, humanity, finding our power as we reweave ourselves back into the reflection of God herself as a divine adronogen. Wow. What was interesting with this fellow's non-binary conversation was asking the question, why, why do gods and goddesses and why do these spirits need gender? Asking this question, why they need gender? And so he broke it down this way. He said, look, as our modern culture accepts gender fluidity within us humans, this non-binary direction that we're going, where we can change back and forth and change into all kinds of other things. And this, by the way, is part of our evolutionary process.

the next evolutionary stage, and this is how he framed it, the next evolutionary stage is when we begin to blur those boundaries between the physical, the human, and the spiritual with the gods and the goddesses. And so from his perspective, the transgender issue was really a spiritual issue. It was a frontrunner, a forerunner, to the next transitioning, to the next non-binary. And the next non-binary, from his perspective would be this phasing between humanity and the spiritual. I thought that was a really fascinating, fascinating perspective. When it comes to Genesis chapter 6, it's interesting how even the pagan community is presently wrestling with Genesis chapter 6.

And I've been to workshops at these pagan events where Genesis chapter 6 is being discussed. Interesting. So there is some type of commonality in terms of, you know, asking the question, what happened? And how does this play out in terms of today's new spirituality? So, I mean, do you think, like, the transhumanism kind of where we're going is all of this gender stuff coming out of, like, they're trying to push people to sort of this androgynous upgrade that they all want us to take? Well, if everything is one, if, if we If oneness is truly the worldview, the most dominant worldview, and I believe it actually is the dominant world view, I believe it's a dominant shaping force right now, you know, stripping all of the trappings of it away, this idea that man, God, and nature are all essentially the same.

If that is true, and I put quotation marks around that, then we can transition. We can move from gender to gender, from sexuality to sexuality. We should be able to do this fluidly. We should be able to move from human to machine, from human to spirit, from maybe human to machine, and then into spirit. It should all end up becoming fluid. And guess what? That's how it all of a sudden is being portrayed to us, whether it's true or not. And I don't think it is true.

But the point being, they believe it is and they push that narrative. It's the opposite of what the Bible is saying. So when we examine what happens, let's say within the transhumanist worldview, or we have, you know, examine paganism, or any of these other movements and isms, we don't look to see what they're saying as being definitive, that this is the end goal that they want to achieve and that they will necessarily achieve that goal.

They may achieve parts and pieces of that goal, but we know how the end of the book, we know how it's written. We know how that plays out. How far will they succeed and what kind of devastation unfolds as they push the agenda? I'm more concerned about that and how it will shape and change and challenge my neighbors, my friends, my family, and how we as Christians now need to respond, not react, but respond with truth.

Yeah, it's the great deception, right? That we talk, it's in there. I find it fascinating that Carl, as you unwrap this and even talked about that presentation where they sort of elicit this Hindu god and there's Gaia and there's, it's always telling that they're all included. of all interfaiths except, except being the Christian worldview, except the God of the Bible, except Jesus Christ as king, right? It's always everything else is okay. Come on, bring that in here. Bring your Buddhism and your Zen,

bring your paganism, bring your fairies and furries and all this stuff, right? But, yeah. Jesus is always the target, and it's not accidental. I think it's fascinating if you look at it with eyes wide open, because it's never like, hey, we're going to go after Krishna or Buddha or, you know, or even Allah or any of this stuff, right? It's always Jesus Christ is the enemy. And it's such a tell.

But it's fascinating because the rest of the world walks around blind, it feels like, to that. You know, when I was asking that question earlier, it is the great deception, right? It's the idea that I feel like it's not actively, you go to these pagan things, very few of these wikins and witches are probably really actively worshipping Satan, right? Oh, they don't. Right. It's some other, it's wrapped in something else, but ultimately it's what it is.

Right. But it's like all these players are being towed along by the nose like a bull, like to this final destination. Right, right. Under this grand deception. And to the point of Satanism and witches, I'm glad you said that. So in 2019, one of the more unique things that happened at Paganic on that year was they had invited a couple Luciferians and witches to give presentations to the witches. This is just how, you know, this is how that world works.

And I found it fascinating listening to the witches and the Satanists in conversation because historically they don't get along. They haven't really got along for 20 or 30 years. And this is one of the first events of significance where you had both sharing the same room, sharing the same platform, and now discussing together how they, in a sense, have historically dissed each other and have historically been at odds with each other. And I attended one workshop where it was led by a Satanist and she actually apologized to everybody for not bringing her Bibles. She's going to have everybody shred Bibles and stomp on Bibles because her workshop was all about healing from abusive religious experiences. And how blasphemy could be used as a healing tool. In fact, that was the name of her workshop. And what I found fascinating, and as a Christian, we kind of cringe when we hear, well, we're going to shred Bibles.

and I was glad that she didn't bring her Bibles, that she didn't have them arrive on time. But what I found more disturbing was the conversation I was hearing between her as a Satanist and a couple of the witches before the workshop began. And they were discussing with each other

their experiences with Christians. And let me tell you, it angered me. Now, I know that this isn't indicative of all Christians, absolutely not. They're pulling from bad experiences. But the fact is, they're bad experiences. And to our shame sometimes. So they were talking about how Christians, when they find out they were a witch or she was a Satanist, would hurl insults, would snub them, would go out of their way to be miserable, how one guy had gone across the parking lot, picked up a bag of trash, out of a garbage can, walked over the Satanus and just dump the trash all over her.

Stuff like this. And I'm like, hold on, hold on. I mean, that gets my ire up a bit. I'm sorry, you're supposed to be an ambassador for Christ. An ambassador means you come in having the legal official position of being the representative of the king of kings to these people. That's your position. You are literally the legal representative of Jesus. Come on, image barriers, man.

Vingo, bingo. And now what are you doing? You're not an ambassador? No, dumping trash on the Satan isn't spiritual warfare. No, no, no, it's not. But I mean, I'll be honest, I was upset. I was angry. I just sat there just kind of, I still kind of gripped my teeth over it because how ignorant.

How utterly ignorant. So let's up our game and be real ambassadors. What does that, you know, what does that look like? Grace and truths together. It's hard. It's hard for a lot of people because they do get into that fundamentalism perspective. And I grew up in a lot of those circles and there's a lot of fundamental ideas. is where, you know, I mean, just some of the crazy experiences I had with friends coming home

from Christian colleges and some of the weird stuff that happens, Christianity can get very much like legalistic and can get very much like, you see it in a lot of channels that people come at us where, you know, they're afraid of Christmas and they're afraid of all these holidays because they think that, you know, everything's been hijacked and they want to live under Iraq. And then eventually, eventually, Christ is what they have to give up. because it's this system that they can't get in. And it just sounds so similar to a lot of these other pagan truths where they're so afraid. They're driven by fear.

And it's funny because they all think that at the end, like there's going to be some alpha that's going to save them. Some, you know, like, they don't want God and they shun all that, but they're all, they don't realize that the gods eventually warred against each other. And it was just nothing but, you know, everyone killing each other. There was no peace. There was no utopia. It never arrives. But it's always promised. And we see this over and over again, the same theme.

And I just, it's sad that a lot of the fundamentalism gives Christianity a bad name because people do terrible things and they think they're doing the right thing. Exactly. So we have to always check ourselves, right? I mean, I have to. One of the things, I think it's a blessing in a weird way, going to these kinds of events is, you end up seeing these people as people. Yeah. Okay?

You see them as people. You see them as souls. Doesn't mean that you agree with them. Not at all. But it does mean that you're going to treat them with some measure of respect. And I mean, I'm not going for the sake of evangelism. That can happen. I mean, that's beautiful when it does occur.

I'm going as a researcher. But let me tell you, I had an opportunity at that same event. Every event has interesting interactions. But at that particular event, I came out of a workshop and I was looking in a different room. They had a big labyrinth set up. And I was looking at this labyrinth and people were in the labyrinth and this guy walks up to me and he hits on me. And so, okay, all right, whatever. So you defuse the advancement.

And so I said, hey, let's go for coffee. And so the two of us went and we had a coffee in the cafeteria at the center where this event was happening. And we sat and talked for a couple of hours. And he asked right away, of course, what branch of paganism I was from. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm a Christian. I'm like, what are you doing here? Yeah.

Like, yeah, and I'm like, I'm here to learn. I'm just here to learn. That's the whole point. I know people who are pagan. I run into pagan people. I know paganism is a hugely influential worldview. So I want to learn full stop. That's it.

But that opened up a conversation around the question of is oneism or twoism. reality because he is an avowed oneist. Everything about paganism is oneism. You hear that phrase being tossed around in practically every workshop or lecture. There's this sense of we are working towards oneism or it's all oneness. And so now we had the opportunity to spend two hours and having this great conversation about, well, it's a reality one or two. Comparing and contrasting the pagan view against the biblical view. Didn't hide it. And coming around to Jesus Christ, to the fact the fact he's the author of life, which means that he as the author of life can take his own life and bring it back again. And this also is one of the reasons why we have death as the consequence

of our sin in the Garden of Eden, because when we turn our back on the author of life, the logical outcome is death occurs. A wages of sin. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So we ended up having this awesome, like two-hour conversation around coffee. It wouldn't have happened if I hadn't to gone and it wouldn't happen if he hadn't have, I guess, hit on me. bizarre, but, you know, that's just how it goes. So, I mean, you just roll with the punches, so to speak. Yeah. And then look for those chances to have conversations, but I'm going primarily as, as, you know, to do that research. That's good. I mean, I like, I like that you get involved

and you, you go out there and you get, a lot of Christians are so afraid. And I think there's just this, there, the fear is the driving force. They're so afraid that either they're going to lose or they're going to be, you know, I mean, I don't, I wouldn't say, because sometimes some of this stuff will follow you home, Carl, so you have to be careful because we've heard weird stories of people having, they're out in the woods, they see something that's just beyond weird. I mean, we talk a lot about the weird stuff on our show. So, you can't just, you know, you have to be armored up and you have to know exactly what you're doing. You can't just willy-nilly go through the, through life and expect that not to be engaged in some sort of spiritual warfare. And I,

think that sounds like you obviously you're yeah well well look i mean when you walk into mcdonalds or into walmart do you feel the darkness yeah sometimes yeah well or or white castle especially yeah Walmart is like sometimes i just can't wait to get out of there it feels like i i just can't wait to get out of shopping anywhere you know sure but i mean but but you know what i'm saying i mean i mean The checkout counter, the girl behind there could be a wicken. You have no idea. You're rubbing shoulders with these kinds of people all the time, and you don't even realize it.

So the question then becomes, are we going to run away from it? Are we hiding our heads in the sand? How are we going to acknowledge what's happening? Are we going to take it seriously? The gospel seriously? Are we going to take the biblical position seriously? And I've, you know, I mean, one of the reasons why I've been going to Burning Man when I have, and my friend Bob Worley, who was my partner in Burning Man for those, for the first couple years especially,

we set up a tent at Burning Man with a sign. The sign says Camp of the Unknown God based of Acts 17. And then we have the opportunity to have great conversations, great conversations as people walk by and sometimes have literally shouted out, who is this unknown God? So when you go to these kinds of events, you're entering their church. And so you want to be respectful to them as individuals. And at the same time, you look for those opportunities that opens up with them asking questions. You know?

Yeah. It's evangelism, bro. That's, I mean, really. Well, it's funny, because we just got a message right before this. A lady was talking about how she, her friend's a hairdresser, and she was cutting this lady's hair. And she started to manifest right there, and her eyes turned black. And it was like she's cutting her hair and all of a sudden. And you're just a hairdresser.

You don't think you're, what are you going to deal? What you're going to deal with that day is going to be something that's like straight out of like an exorcist movie. That's what happened. And it's funny. I just read that message right before this interview. So it applies. And the weird stuff's out there. I like your boldness.

I like that you walk. You walk in to learn. And we need more people on the, because sometimes it's easy just to sit on the outside and not get involved, not get in the game. And we talk to a lot of people that come on our show who have supernatural experiences or have seen something. and they can't talk to anybody. It's like Christians are sometimes the most closed-minded to the spiritual realm.

And that's what our show, that's what our shows kind of becomes quasi-popular because we're just willing to have these conversations. And it's mind-blowing, Luke and I sometimes like... Carl, I wanted to ask one last question. And it was, you know, when you lay out your book, Game of Gods, and you're looking at really this direction that things are going, right?

You have this removal of the J.O. Christianity is our foundation in the Western world. There's almost a devolution, right? You have this new religion that's arising, and you're doing the research and you're going and you're going and figure out what these folks are doing, what's driving them. In the light of all that and sort of as dark as that all is, how do you find hope in that? I mean, what is your, you know, because it feels like, you know, it's a barely into Armageddon, right? It feels like these are the, eventually, this is how we get there to this oneness idea.

And then we are one world. Then we have one king. And we just talked about you, you opened up the, the pan. samples from the UN, that is the goal. With that in mind, this train is left the station. It has left the station. Yeah. So how do you, with that in mind, it's kind of dark, right? It's a little bit depressing. That's where things are heading. Now, how do you balance the hope then on the other side? Oh my goodness. To me, it's so glaring. The hope is so obvious. Because as you see on the one hand, this move towards man saying, I will save myself and I am my own redeemer, that in its own right

demonstrates the reality of Jesus Christ, that he is our hope, that he is who is true, not man's schemes and man's devising. I see this as a fantastic affirmation of the biblical position, because it's just demonstrating it in spades, you know, to the measure that man will go to say that we will save ourselves. And then I look at this and I'm thankful. I specifically Look at the thief on the cross and I'm going, well, you know, you look at him. There's not a lot of hope, is there? Yeah. No, no, he's breathing his last.

No. His body is broken and he's breathing his last. He's literally being executed. We forget that that's what's happening. He is being executed and there is nothing he can do except trust the one who's also being executed beside him, Jesus Christ. Now, there's great hope in that. I'm not saying we're in the same position.

We're like the thief on the cross being executed. But we're in a position where it looks dark. It looks hopeless. But the hope that we have is in Jesus Christ. Now, the other way of looking at how all this is unfolding is we look at this as opportunity. I mean, the world looks at crisis as an opportunity. We also then, I think, should look at crisis as opportunity. I had a great conversation this afternoon with a lady who came in my office. She wanted to talk about what happened over the last three years. It's not a believer, but it opened up her eyes big time to ask big, big questions. questions that allow us to begin to move down that road of where your hope is found and where trust and truth is found. And I'm excited to see where this conversation is going to keep going because she's hungry. So all of a sudden we have to look at this as opportunity. And I think that's important, an opportunity not to react, but to respond. One of the assignments I have my class do is in the beginning of the week, before we really get into any of the lectures, I hand out sheet to them all, and there's 10 videos they can watch from YouTube. And all the videos are shocking,

they're short, they are so in your face, they're so anti-Christian. And my assignment is, all right, before we get any further in this class, I want you to write two paragraphs, maybe three paragraphs, your gut reaction. Spill it, the way you would spill it on social media, when you just sit down at your keyboard and you're a keyboard warrior, just spill it. Don't think. Just do what you normally do. React. Because that's how we've all been queued up to handle situations. We react. Then after the end of 20 hours of lectures, at the end of the week, rewatch the same video, and now respond. Respond with two to three pages where you break down the worldview, you have an understanding of the worldview. You can find answers to that worldview,

counters to that worldview that are both taken from a logical and a scriptural, and they're not mutual exclusive, they work together, a logical and scriptural response back, so that you can begin to see this for what it is, an opportunity to respond and not react. So that's what we need to do. And then to the issue of fear, here's a question, will every knee bow, every knee will bow.

We bow in love. Absolutely. We bow in love. Those around us refuse to bow in love. will bow in judgment and every principality and power that is in the background or even now in the foreground

will also bow as well so then why are we afraid? That's right. It shouldn't be. Bingo. The king's army is behind us. Exactly. Yeah.

So I see all of this as exciting. I mean, gentlemen, we're born into this century and well, actually, all three of us, we were born in the other century, but you know what I'm saying? This is our era.

And so we are called now to be ambassadors for Jesus Christ in this time period. I love that. If nothing else, we always say on our show, the more when you understand what you're up against, you understand how much you need a savior. And sometimes Christians are just, we like to just kind of go through our cozy, easy reality, you know, our Walmart faith of just showing up and then leaving. But as you can see, the world's getting darker and these things are starting to come out. So it's, it's time to be at least move from the neutral space to the offense. And

we do have a lot of power. So Carl's saying, yeah. Time for being reactionary, I think, is over. Yeah. Man, I love it, Carl. Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us here and dropping knowledge and thanks to your research. Man, we'd love to check in after your next research project and see what kind of wild stuff you uncover. But yeah, we're grateful. I'm hoping to attend some stuff this year. There's a virtual event taking place within the international political community that I want to plug into in the next couple weeks. And then, Lord willing, I'm going to be looking at traveling to a conference on psychedelics and try to get a handle on where the psychedelic community is going. And then if things unfold, back to the Parliament of World Religions and hopefully Burning Man.

We'll see how all this plays out as the weeks and months move forward. But yeah, you don't pray for us as we continue to engage in this kind of a work. But, Donnie Brasco, that's what I was trying to think of. You're like Donny Brasco, man. You're infiltrating the mob. You're in there. You're just figuring out what they're doing. Hey, hey, we've all of the infiltrated the mob.

If you're a Christian, you're already infiltrated it. You already have. Sorry, you're there. So, yeah. So thank you, gentlemen. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of part of your podcast. It's been good. Thanks, Carl.

Appreciate it, Carl. The book is Game of Gods. Tell us where they can, our listeners, where they can find you and follow you or involve what you're doing. So you can go to

gameofgods.ca if you want to read excerpts of the book. If you want to poke into the bibliography, it's there as well. You can find Game of Gods on Amazon. It's a fairly big book. It's 570 pages long. That includes the index.

Fully footnoted for anybody who is a research nerd. you're going to find it to be an absolutely excellent resource. I have 1,800 footnotes. And I am a bit of a geek when it comes to the documenting of what I'm talking about, because I think it's really important. And we're not just going off of circular reasoning, us, all of us within the Christian community, sending newsletters to each other,

and then we could just quote each other. I'd rather just quote what they're saying. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So. Yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah. So that's kind of how it's structured.

So go check out gameofgods.ca. And then I was the editor of a magazine called Forcing Change that examined the intellectual, philosophical, religious and political forces of change. And I was an editor for that publication for nine years. You can go to Forcing Change.org. It's a free resource. Just sign up with your email. And you have access to all nine years of the back issues of forcing change magazine.

It was a monthly and time. intelligence style publication. There's a number of articles and other special reports there too. It's free. Just like data mine it. Go in and strip it out. So if you want to read for the next nine years, go there and read it off. Yeah, we'll actually link to it on our website with all the other books.

So you can find it there. If you forget, just go to our website and you can find it there. And Carl, thank you so much. Thanks so much. you're a brave, ready to going out and just seeing what, seeing what's happening and reporting back to us, like a true journalist for the kingdom.

Appreciate the time we've had it together, gentlemen. Yeah. Thanks for making it happen. Last minute, too. Appreciate that. I know. Yeah, thanks for being flexible, too. That's awesome.

Absolutely. All right. Take care, guys. Thanks, Carl. When you comes out. It's good to see you and then see your name for the last 30 minutes. But good to see you, brother. See you.

There you are. There you are. There is. Thanks, Carl. Yep. Thank you, thank your wife for handing the book. That was those key. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Awesome. All right.

Thanks, brother. Good to see you, man. Bye. See you.