Blurry Creatures - EP: 179 Last Day of the Lupercalia with Dr. Judd Burton

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

The illustrious Dr. Judd Burton returns to the show to discuss sacred time and space. A biblical anthropologist, scholar, and friend of the show, Dr. Burton is an expert on the region of Paneas and its significance to the biblical account. Nestled at the base of Mt. Hermon, Paneas sits at ground zero for cosmic significance in relation to the Genesis 6 event. Dr. Judd's academic and field studies focused on Early Christianity and Greco-Roman religions and he specifically wrote his dissertation on Paneas. This is a deep dive into the seldom-discussed timing and cosmic implications of Jesus's visit to Paneas. The "when" if you will, of this event. Why do we believe this was the chosen timing of his visit? What is occurring at the Ferālia Festival in Caesarea Philippi/Paneas at this specific time? How do the time and place of the Transfiguration have both earthly and cosmic timing and geographic implications? Join us as we travel to the last day of the Roman festival of Lupercalia, to the arrival of Jesus at the foot of Mt. Hermon, and a journey into the revelation of the sacred time and space of this biblical event. Intro song: TimeCop1983 contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Just in the context of the visit to Sessori, Bill, Bob. What's interesting about Luke chapter 9 is that it tells us that about eight days after Jesus makes the big statement, he takes a couple of his disciples to the high mountain. And we know the transfiguration story. He ascends. And again, this is like the final warning for the demonic room. But the last is this really weird festival, the mini festival, the Pharrellia.

And this is when the most malevolent and wicked of these underworld spirits was to be placated by the worship. Now, isn't it interesting that if I'm right, while that's happening incessary Philip and is, Jesus is going up at the same time on Mount Hermann and the Transfigurationist type of course. Hey everyone in the Blurieverse. This week we've got Dr. Judd Burton back on the show. Judd's been on the show many times. It's great to hear his voice again. He's healing up and sounded better than ever.

If you want to support this podcast, blurry creatures.com slash members. We're releasing a lot of bonus episodes lately so you can get access to those. We have a chat next Thursday night the 27th, 7 p.m. And then we're going to do a movie for gold members afterwards. So join up.

Join the team. Get blurry with us. Thanks for all the messages. Got a lot of stories lately from you guys that is going to turn into potential bonus episodes. So keep an eye out for those. And let's get Dr. Judd on this one. The history of our earth is so different

from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the

problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermann event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal.

Welcome back to the podcast. Dr. Jed Burton, otherwise known as DJV, Judd, I think people want a song and you said you were going to sing. We're going to start with a song. I feel like we need to build this to a crescendo. Just go right into it.

This is an easy way to break into it. Just as long as it's not, let's start with a crescendo and then continue. Yes, well might as well. Let's get to a fever picture. You don't want a day crescendo. Well, I figured since we were going to talk about Peter, a little bit tonight.

16 tons might be appropriate. Very much. You know, four men's made out of muscle. How does it start? It's a, well, some people say a man is made out of mud.

A poor man's made out of muscle and blood. Muscle and blood and skin and bones. A mind that's weak and the back that's strong. You load 16 tons. What do you get? another day older and deeper in debt st peter don't you call me because i can't go i owe my soul to the company store let's go tennessee ernie ford let's go welcome back what a bull welcome back to blurry creatures there it is guys you don't get that you don't get that

anywhere that is judge you know what i love is that you match the song it's shadows of what's to come. And it's, you pull a Tennessee Ernie Ford song. I mean, and because there's one line about St.

Peter, and it is, gosh, you could have gone Peter Paul and Mary. You could have gone Peter Satera. But, you know, I like where he went with this.

Peter Gabriel. Peter Gabriel. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been a real sledge, you know what? You know, this is just like Indiana Jones.

Yeah. You did not choose poorly. He chose, wisely. Here's a little bit of trivia before we get deep into it. Actually, Tennessee, Ernie Ford didn't write that song. Popularizes it. It was Merle Travis that actually wrote us. Good old Merle Travis. Judd, you know, we had so many great episodes with you, and it's been a long time. And we were talking, you were texting, just to give our listeners a little what's to come. You're talking about sacred geography and sacred time,

revolving around Penaeus. I love that we're going here, Jed, because I feel like a lot of our episodes have, you know, you've written extensively about Penaeus, and we've talked about the importance of Penaeus, Mount Hermannes, the cult associated with Penaes, and then, of course, the reasoning and specificness for Jesus going there, right?

Because we've talked about this, I think, on one of our previous episodes, about how it was so far out of the way. Like, it wasn't like, it was just like, hey, we're going to, hey, guys, let's saddle up the camels, and we're going to, you know, we're going to Galilee, but it was, it was an intentionality of heading to Penaeus,

which is now Cessori of Philippi at the base of Ground Zero. Although, Nate, you did say Ground Zero for blurry, blurryness was in Peru, and I knew that wasn't quite correct, maybe for Cyclopian architecture. I meant more like Ground Zero in terms of like what's left over. Correct. Like, there's not a whole lot left over in a lot of these sites, but Peru somehow manages to have some of the best preserved blurry stuff.

stuff. So that's kind of what I meant. Just so you know, Judd, Nate climbed a mountain in jeans and low top Air Force ones because he wanted to make a point. That's right. Dare I ask what the point was. There was no point. It was a point to make it harder than it actually was, which is extremely hard. But we digress. The point was, is I'm on brand. Marty McFly. You 80s podcast. You got to take your your, your, your nikes and your jeans and you got to get up that hill. I didn't have a vest. on, but I was close. You had your Calvin Klein underwear. I did.

Yeah. Your name is now amongst the greats like Sir Edmund Hillary. That's correct. Yes. And Hiram Bingham. By the way, fourth great grandfather of mine. So,

good stuff. We're all about the trivia. We are. We are. But, Jed, let's get into this. It's great to have you back.

Again, I know that you, I believe I could be wrong, right? Did you do your PhD studies on Penaeus, correct? Is that? Yeah, I'm a dissertation on Penaeus.

Yes. That's what I was thinking. So, of course, this is right in your wheelhouse, Jed. And even now, years after being bestowed with the good doctorate, you're still learning new things about this space, or maybe discovering new things about this space. This is a very important space, right? Because this is a, you might say this backdrop is pregnant with meaning.

Yeah. One might say. I could say that. I would say so, and I have said so. Yes. So our listeners, we talk a lot about Mount Herman. We've talked a lot about it extensively with just about everybody on the show. And at the base of it is this place.

And we're going to get into it today. But I think, Jud, you bring, just like you brought some interesting understandings of, you know, you look at things from a different point of view. We talked to you a lot about the ancient giants. That was our first episode we did with you. And then we talked about some of the wording around the, we did, you know, the Raphaim and the words, Raffa and we, we, we, we, we, talked about how that could be connected to these Nephilim kings. Then we talked about the tombs of the god kings

on an episode. We talked about vampires and werewolves and a couple episodes, but we seem to be kind of hovering around Mount Hermon a lot on our show. So, Judge, give it to us. What do you know about this place that we don't know? Well, again, your

audience, who I love and adore, you know, there are no strangers to this topic Mount Hermon, the Genesis 6th event and even to a large extent, you know, the sort of local out history of anise. So I don't want to retread old tires, but by way of review, and I want to dwell more on the sacred time rather than sacred geography.

But so much of that has been the conversation, you know, up at this point. And it's important. It needs to be understood. And so I'll talk a little bit about that. And then we'll launch into some of the new findings that I've had. It's no secret either from the archaeological or historical record that this region important, the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews. And even once it was Hellenized, a lot of the beliefs that they brought with them dovetailed with what was going on in the region to begin with.

So the role that the Mount Herman region has played not only in the history of the Levant, but even other places like Mesopotamia, is a long established tradition in multiple, you know, sets of literature. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my phone bill.

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five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month, new customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra, cement mobile for details. And all the work that I've done on this, it occurred to me that, you know, the best that we could really kind of do at one point was to kind of estimate where, not where,

but when Jesus and his disciples were at, says, Philipod, this account that's in Matthew chapter 16 and Mark chapter 8 and is sort of paralleled in Luke chapter 9 in places, primarily in the Matthew and Mark text, most of what I had read and researched was that Jesus and his disciples were at Cesarophan, sometime in the winter before his death. And I always thought,

okay, that's a good place to start with. But, you know, something told me that there was more there, you know, that there were more layers to the onion. And it seemed like that there could possibly be markers somewhere. And again, having looked at these passages hundreds of times,

I was looking to see if there was something that was sort of hiding in plain sight. And so I started to focus more on what clues Luke chapter 9 could possibly give. But before we jump into that, I'll preface it by saying that the, The first, you know, sort of initial stages of this hypothesizing, we know kind of the nuts and bolts of what Jesus is doing when he's at, Sessori of Philippa. And we know that Jesus pacing and timing and selection implications to give homilies and perform miracles and stuff like that.

We know that there's generally something there. In other words, he's not randomly doing things. You know, there are these multiple levels of teaching. that Jesus has always engaged in. So keeping that in mind, I wondered if there's anything in the Greco-Roman context of which, Caesarea Philippa was a thoroughly hellenized city by that time, I met it not just the short lifetime

of the city, but the region of the neon was a kind of melting pot of hell in them for a couple of centuries by the time Jesus and the disciples lived there. So it had time to accumulate and thoroughly hellonized the local iturian population. The original Hell Valley. Well, if you want to call it that, I suppose.

Go on. You started with a back-to-the-future joke. Come on. What a reach. Yeah, I can see now the little domiciles in Levittown-style houses that dotted the floor of the valley at the time or their rough equipment. The old twin pines to the old lone pine, right? Wouldn't be ponds, it would be cedars, right? Cedars, correct.

Hey, we're just going to use back to the future jokes the rest of the episode, Jed. So just get used to it. That's going to keep me on my toes. So the first thing that really jumps out at me and reconsidering, you know, the timing of Jesus' arrival is, well, if his arrival and presence there and what he says and what he does there is firing a shot over the bow of the end. enemy, then it makes sense that the timing, the wind, would also have the same kind of logic to it. The leopercalia, that's still in its late winter, but it's still in the winter. And the leupacalia takes place on February the 15th, and this is the festival to Pan. So I thought that would stay in line with the reasoning of the general reasoning of why Jesus was there in the first place.

It was the same kind of logic. It was a slight, in this case, Pan, a Zaga, a Zazel, whatever name, you know, wanted to put on that, that would be a real slap in the face. You know, Jesus establishing the church, saying all the, all the things that he did, the homily that ensues at Cessaria Philippa, Petron Confession, the establishment of the church, the gates of Hill will not withstand against it. It makes a lot of timing sense for the Lupercalia festival. What is this festival? Well, as I said, the Lupercalia festival is in honor of the god, pant. What did they do? Well, the overarching idea was that, you know, there were rituals that were done to keep their flock shape,

safe, you know, from predators like wolves. And even one of the things that they were keeping their flocks safe from, one of the beliefs they had is that they were. were doing these protective rights to keep werewolf-like creatures away as well as wolves. Wow. Very good. But in terms of rituals, it's, you know, Pan is associated with fertility and sexuality. And so a lot of the rights are reflective of those kinds of ideas. One of them, big one, very strange.

And I've talked about this before, but they're the young maidens, women of childbearing age, would all line up on the thoroughfare, the car. Artemximus, as it were, and they would bear their thighs. And a group of young men dressed in goatskins called the lubrici would come by with these leather tongs and slap them on the leg. And this was supposed to ensure fertility not only for the flocks, but also for people too. And I still think that that's the target day when all of this is taking place. What day with that again? That was February the 15th.

Okay. That's two days after the Iads of February. You heard of the Iids of March from Julius Caesar. Well, sometimes the IIDS falls on the 13th of a month and February on the Roman calendar

is one of them. So, yeah, it just made perfect sense to me that given the pacing and timing of the rest of what's going on in its accessory of Philippa, that the logical timing for when Jesus makes all of these crucial accessory of Philippi statements beyond the Lupercal. So it's kind of like from modern-day Americans, most of our audiences America.

It's like Jesus rolling into New Orleans on Mardi Gras kind of thing. Yeah, something very similar. Yeah, exactly. And interestingly enough, Mardi Gras takes place in February. It's descended from the old carnival festival in medieval Europe, which is basically a public pornographic display of carnality. It's the same kind of thing that's going on. And I suspect that a lot of people like to argue that it's Valentine's Day that preserve

the leoprcalia. But I think the more logical argument is that it's the carnival that preserves the element of some of the elements of the leopacalia. Didn't even realize that word carnival. Yeah. Yeah. Just dropping the bombs on us. And they also were sacrificing goats, which is, of course, in Epidupon, right?

And also dogs, which is sad, makes me hate them. No French bull dogs. Of course not, man. You wouldn't do that. They were revered. They were always been revered. No, but I just, I think sometimes, and that's what I love about what we do on the show, especially when we do in episodes like this, Judd, is there's all these, you could say backdrop

just to be, just because, right? But it really is. There's this backdrop to the scripture. And I think it's so important because, you know, we read the words and I have, you know, I brought Luke 9 up just to take a look as you're speaking because, you know, I'm curious and where this is going. And the words are amazing, right? And, and, but I think oftentimes we get a very flat view of the gospel and even of the biblical

texts. This is what we do in the show. Nate, we talk about sort of providing context and also, you know, backdrop tapestry, whatever you want to call around it. But like, to understand this, right? To understand. And I think we've walked through this with you, Judd, and understanding, you know, what about Paneus is important?

And you talked about the shot across the bow, and that's something we talked about in our episode. But I think adding this to it and understanding that more than likely, Jesus showed up at this time, and I think all of us can put, Nate, I think it was kind of brilliant. The Mardi Gras analogy and the timing can put that.

And so you start to have this idea of what more it look like when Jesus showed up, and it just seems all that much more intentional. And I'm really excited to hear where this goes, because I think these things are so important to understand. And one of the things that I really liked, Nate, when we talked to Joel Matamale about territorial spirits, he was talking about cosmic geography. And I just like that term, and it kind of comes to mind. The idea that, like, the physical geography also had very much cosmic geographical implications. And I think that when we start to think that way about the scripture and about the stories in the scripture and about the actions and the intentionality of Jesus and being.

the Messiah and the Son of God and understanding the things he was doing were very intentional that I think we're remiss and that's what I love about what we're doing right now in this space is understanding cosmically why it's so important and so I want to call that out and say this is why it doesn't make it more important but I think it provides context and this is I think on a macro level what we try to do here right is to is to provide context and answers to things about why Why is this happening? And why people experiencing things they do? And also why is Jesus doing the things that he did?

And why in the things in the Bible happen the way they happened? And so I just, I, it's a long-winded say to say, I love this, Judd, because I think this provides such amazing, an amazing backdrop. I can't make this joke. You can't, you can't. I can't even say, no, but it is pregnant with so much meaning. It is. To make another doc joke, guys, Dr. Emmett Brown.

it's not where the hell are they the more appropriate question is when the hell are they it's yeah it's well i mean we're sort of we're sort of asking when the hell are they tonight but yeah they're both important questions and to your point luke you know we do get kind of a i mean just a superficial flat reading if we're just you know not not that the holy spirit can't talk to you you know just from a reading of scripture but you have to it's some work to get the proper context, you know, even, even as a lay Bible student, you know, it demands some work to understand the historical and cultural context. I would say, Judd, the thing that I think we forget sometimes, maybe at least I do,

is that as 21st century Westerners, like if you were living the time of Jesus, you would have completely understood this. This makes sense, but I think we, sometimes we get so far disconnected. It doesn't, I want to reiterate this. This is not like, this is not hidden knowledge or anything like that. It literally is just historical context and cultural contexts. You're a biblical anthropologist. So this is the cultural anthropology of what is happening.

And it would have been, just like Gen 6 would have made so much sense to people at the time. And we live in Gen 6 a lot. It would make so much sense to people then because they understood the context of that. That's why it's a single, it's four verses. And we, you know, a lot of people these days get their mind blown about their minds blown about what actually happened. but this would have been like requisite knowledge and it would have been, of course, to people at the time. And I think, you know, post-enlightenment, academic era, and so far separated by time, these things are so important to understand. And I'm not going to stop hammering that home, but I do think.

No, I mean, you're right. You're right. They really are. And we have so many tools available to us now that, you know, think about biblical scholars 100, 200, 300, 300 years ago. couldn't have dreamed they would have at their hands. So there's so many things that people can use to have bailed themselves of that. And I always encourage people to do that. You know, people can, I have students, you know, that I'm opening that door, you know, for them. So it is tricky. And, you know, as you were talking, it occurred to me that understanding the audience is so crucial in the context equation. And that's where biblical critics sort of get bogged down in quagmars, intellectual quagmars,

because they'll throw stuff out like the prophets or Jesus or fill in the blank. You know, some author of one of the biblical books doesn't talk about this. Well, if it's an ensconced part of the culture, which many times more often than not, it is, it was implicit. The audience already knew there was no reason for those people to go at Great Blank. And so a lot of those criticisms in my estimation really falls short scholastic. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it'd be like us talking, talking haphatically about something we saw online and then having to espouse what the internet is. And that's what I think is interesting is that because we are separated, this is the context that is, I think, is enlightening and understanding, as you would say, the sacred timing and then also the sacred geography of what's happening. And I would say this for me, Nate, like I did coming into this show three years ago, I didn't understand, you know, the significance of Cesar of Philippi and Pinaeus and Jesus even going there. I mean, of course, you always get the explanation that like, oh, on this rock is about Peter. And even if you just think about the physical geography, you don't ever really think about the fact that like, man, he went out of it.

And Jesus went out of his way to take everybody there. That doesn't even blip the radar for a lot of people on a basic level because they're not familiar with the actual topography and physical geography of Israel. and Syria in these places that you just don't, you don't know. And so you're like, of course, you went there. You know, I don't know where Nazareth or Galilee or whatever. Or you don't even understand ancient pagan worship. You don't understand what they were building, why they were building it. You don't have any frame of reference to.

It's like, you know, Judd, you're trying to put a little bit of color in a black and white text, right? You're trying to say, you know, and we've done that a lot on our show. And what we found a lot when we just went to Peru and we see some of these ancient places is how forgetful the human species is. I mean, you have the natives, the true natives saying, we didn't build this stuff, but then you have the modern day people say, oh, yeah, we built it. And just a couple hundred years and everyone forgets. And you can imagine. Well, for me, as a historian, the point, the importance of what you're talking about really didn't come from many historians that I was reading in graduate school. But there was an anthropologist named Clifford

years and his big tome was something called thick description and which he outlined this you know you have to be as nuanced as you possibly can in your description of a culture building a culture narrative you know whether you're an archaeologist or historian or anthropologist and it really drove that point home knowing that looking back you know we're still only dealing with fragmentary evidence but you can still accumulate as much of that as you possibly can to make the most cohesive picture in this case to build the more colorized as you put it the more colorized version of the culture of indeed the cultures plural that you're working with here in terms of audience and direction so here's a dumb question so I imagine it's a crowded it's a crowded time

there's basically a big event going on Jesus rolls in and he's preaching and you're thinking other people are listening to this he's got a crowd around him Like, what is, what does it matter if it's, if there's a lot of people there or not? What do you think? Well, it matters because, it matters because there would have been people within earshot of what Jesus. Even if Jesus was just talking to his disciple, got a lot of people in the city. People coming from other small villages and towns who were Hellenized. It would have been taken part in this. We would have had local Jewish populations.

So, you know, they would have probably tried and steer clear just, just in terms of staying ritually pure. away from this, but there might have been Jews, you know, walking through who heard, you know, who would have heard Jesus as well. So it's important to understand that in terms of audience, you know, or potential audience would have been there. Certainly there would have been more people than were in Jesus's group of disciples. It would have been within earshot and heard the things that we said, not only heard, but would have been familiar with, let's say they were one of the local Hellenized Echirians, they would have been familiar with not just the pagan stuff that was going on in town at the time, but they would have been familiar with the local Jewish traditions

as well about Mount Hermon. But he goes all the way there. And I think sometimes Christians, you know, we have such a hard time. We have such a this, you know, Jesus kind of tiptoes around things. But it's like, you know, he shows up to Burning Man Festival. That's a good analogy. Yeah. Just so why Luper Leopacalia? What do you think is specific at this time? I mean, obviously it was a... Again, it's, it's, it's been well demonstrated. It's common knowledge. Pan is a god that's being revered at the Libra Calia.

Because you have this shrine to Pan there, from which the place takes its name, the region takes its name. It makes sense that Jesus is, he's not, it's not just the Hellenic facade or faith that Pan has, but this is a shot, I suspect, at Azizabeth. and the, by extension, the sherry and the satyrs in ancient Hebrew war. So keeping that in mind, it brings out, again, part of that nuance that I was talking about. And it will certainly become clearer as we sort of pivot into the next discovery that I made about the, what I believe is the case to be made for the more exact timing and pacing of what Jesus is doing at a Cesary of Philippa. Do you think also that Jesus is trying to get into the disciples' heads, sort of what they're, like, what they're warring against?

So he goes there and he talks to them specifically. I don't think, I don't think the disciples really got it until the, after the fact. But you think they're putting together all these places that he's going and everything he's saying? And it's like, if they doesn't, if they don't go there, it doesn't really hit them, I think. Like, Luke and I just went to Peru and we see this stuff. It's just so much more amazing. when you're standing there looking at it and you're like, I could talk about this all day long,

but here I am in front of it. It's kind of incredible. Absolutely. They certainly would have been working this stuff out in their head, notwithstanding that you've got some knuckleheads amongst the disciples. Let's just go ahead and use the scholastic turn for it. There were some knuckleheads amongst the disciples. But, yeah, they would have been trying to, you know,

why did the master take us here? You know, what? We're in the Greco-Roman pagan, capital of the region. What the world is? And certainly they would have been familiar with the Mount Herman stuff. And so some of them probably did piece it

together, but it was, like you say, it was a slower process. It was a slow burn, you know. Thomas Jefferson once said that you never know how place has affected you until you've left it. And there's probably some truth to that at play in the accessory of filibia.

So certainly, what I believe is the timing and pacing, you know, after has a lot to do with giving the disciples something else to think about in terms of the significance of the visit itself. And do you think that like Jesus showing up to these places, even just showing up, has a cosmic effect on the location and maybe the principalities and powers that are there? Well, I mean, clearly, anytime Jesus shows up and confronts these forces directly, you know, they're fearful for their eternity.

They say things like, have you, son of man, have you come to throw us into the pit already? They were fearing that final judgment that maybe he had stepped up the timetable or something. And so, yeah, there's a definite quaking,

if you will, caused by any, you know, anytime Jesus is confronting these entities. And of course, when is he not during the course of his ministry? That's right. We just don't think about it that way.

I don't think we were taught to think about it this way. I don't think it didn't matter where he went. It was just like he was doing the same thing wherever he went, but it doesn't. It sounds like more and more, as you understand sort of these ancient spaces and what each place was dealing with, there's a specific miracle or event that goes around or sermon or telling. It's like 4D chess, and you can't think about it just in human terms. to think about it in principalities, powers, and other realms, what's happening there too? Yeah, this doesn't detract from, you know, previous generations of biblical scholars,

because, you know, heck, there has to be precedent. You know, there were some really big eggheads that have laid its foundation for the rest of us. But we're at such a turning point now, you know, with thinkers like our mutual friend, Dr. Hauser, that the doors of understanding this stuff have been so, so wide open that there is such a counterbalance against it by the enemy so that you have things like postmodernism and this weird dialectic that keeps all of us at each other's throats and divided and purely materialistic and naturalistic and so it's we certainly live in interesting times in terms of both what's available for us to help us understand this nuance that we're talking about tonight, but also the forces that are continuing to fight against it, just as they did in Jesus Day.

So you know, you think you know exactly when he rolled in a town? I think I can make a pretty good case for a more exact time frame of when he rolled in a town. And I think it begins, I think what he says, you know, the Matthew chapter 8, or excuse me, Matthew 16, more chapter 8, you know, material. I think that that, that happens around the time, if not on the lubricalia. And this is what I've been waiting, waiting for. There's something else. There's another festival in the Greco-Rona world that's happening during the Leupercal. Now, the Luccaal is just one day.

It's February the 15th. When Jesus and his disciples arrive in Caesar of Philippa, the likelihood, in fact, the probability that this other festival was being celebrated alongside it is extremely high. And this festival was the Parenthalia, the Parenthalia lasted from February the 13th until it lasted about nine days. So it's going to end on the 21st, 22nd. This was a festival that honored the dead. It was a time when the people in the Greco-Roman world would placate these spirits called

the monas or the parenteles they were the spirits of dead ancestors to me that's already interesting even against the older Amarot-Khanite context because there are all of these dolmens

spread throughout the land in the Transjordan there's Gilgal Refayem this is quite literally the land of the Refaiim the dead the dead kings of the underworld You know, people will think about Og. Well, Ag is emblematic of these dead kings that are analogous to the rabbi in the Mesopotamian abyss.

Is this kind of like the Dia de los Muirtos? Is that the kind of, it's like the original festival? Well, it's the same kind of thing. You've got some of that act on the world of calendar and fall into, but it's very similar to Dea de los Mortis the Day of the Dead. because people would actually go to the tombs of their loved ones and would offer meals to these spirits. They would don at them. And we certainly know this because at Paneus, there's no shortage of layers of busted up votive pottery that they brought with them. You know, whether they were bringing their, you know, casseroles or whatever they were eating.

You know, they brought it in this stuff. And a lot of it just got smashed and churned up into what archaeologists call the matrix. not the movie matrix, but this would be broken, pottery, debatars, that sort of thing. The strata. Stratah, that's right. The evidence for it is quite abundant on that end. And so, again, when you consider that there's a rifeiame connection here to what's going on with the honoring of the dead. That's how your Jewish audience is certainly going to see this sort of thing.

the Greco-Roman population is going to think, well, these people are family, and so we need to continue honoring them and indeed communicate with them to keep them placated and happy in the underworld. So this went on, again, as I said, for about eight or nine days. Again, it's hard to miss this connection between the traditions that are probably prehistoric in the of these traditions of cults of the dead, as it were, and certainly the motif of the dolman as a grave marker or some sort of altar to, you know, some sort of memoriam to the dead. That is also established. Is that, okay, so a lot of people post the photos of this cave opening. And some people surmise that there was like a temple built around this cave

opening at one point. Right. Most scholars think that this was the Augustaian that Herod the Great built. It was kind of pandering to Herod the Great. There's no doubt that there was some sort of structure in front of it at one point in time. This might have been to facilitate the actual worship that went on there, but it was clear that the cave was the actual shrine. But most of the Augustea and the temples to Augustus that you find remnants for in the Levant were all built on hilltops. So it doesn't make a lot of sense that that was the Augustaam in front of it. And I have suggested that more survey needs to be done with a cliff on top of the cliff above the cave or PowerPoints in the area to look through this Augustaam.

So it's clear that there was some sort of, you know, it might have been a temple, it might not have been. If you read the literature, again, most scholars are going to say, oh, yeah, well, that's the Augustaam, but it's not on the high point, really, of the city, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that that was the case. But it is part of the larger, what's known as the Timonos, where all the other temples and niches would have been. But this cave, right? That's what Jesus is looking at when he says, on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it?

I think so. I mean, when he's using imagery like the gates of hill, immediately that certainly would have ranked through with his disciples but it would have you know any of the pagans in your shot would have understood this too because pagans viewed not just caves but caves that were associated with waterways like you have at PNAS they associated these with entrances to the underworld and so there's that imagery as well you know against you know the the timing of this Parenthalia festival when I believe that that Jesus as soon as disciples are here. So, Judd, pull this thread for us now.

So we've got Lupercalia on the 15th of February. We have Parentalia, which is the 13th to the 21st of February, which is the veneration of the dead. I wanted to make a joke about pouring out for the homies. But it does remind me of what Nate was saying, especially in Haiti, where they do go and they do this. They sit at the graves and they eat and they pour wine. And this festival was much of the same.

same. It was the veneration of the dead. And then if you've listened to the show, listeners, we did an episode with Derek Gilbert about the value of the shadow of death, which is in Bichan, and there are about 10,000 dolmens. So you would be familiar with this vernacular. That these are, these are what Jed's talking about. So if we have these two things going on, Jed, pull this thread for us. What, why does Lupercalia fall in the middle of Parentalia and these two festivals coinciding with the arrival, or at least what you, you, you, you, you, would surmises or what you believe as the arrival of Jesus and his disciples to this, you know, really famous event at Penaeus, why do you believe these things coincided for such a cosmic

and for such a cosmic importance of this event? Because it's not just superficial element that we're dealing with here. It's the, it's in this case the infernal geography, sacred geography, but it's it's the infernal geography here of these cults of the dead, these familial cults that are celebrated not only just during the Parenthalia, but there were cults of the dead in the Levant too. And as you pointed out, and Derek, Derek and I are an agreement on this. In fact, Doug Van Dorn and I are working on a book and recover a lot of, covering a lot of this material too. And so, yeah, you've got, you know, in the ancient times, the Hula Valley, which is just

at the south of this. And I'm sure Derek reference was this great festering swamp. It was, it was malarial. In fact, that's why the Israelis drained it, you know, because it was a malarial swarm. And you had all these archaic, you know, even in Jesus' date, these archaic monuments to the dead all throughout the region, throughout the Hula, going up towards Bona and Espanais. So this would also be something that would not be lost on the audience or audiences that Jesus is talking to at Cesar and Philippa while all this is going on, while he's saying all this amidst the parentalia, the lurkalia directed at, again, Pan, Azazel.

But the parentalia context, Jesus is talking about these ousted Refaym, and by extension, their forebears, the watchers, who were now these abysmal god kings of the underworld that so many of the regional religions record in their literature as revering. So that's the larger nuance at work here, but there's more. Give it to us. Like I said, I looked at what Luke chapter 9 could tell us about more about the Pherentalia, possibly about this timing. Not necessarily, it doesn't reference the Pherentalia. But there are some interesting pacing issues here in Luke chapter 9.

And one has to do with clearly the G. Jesus and his disciples parked it at Cessori of Philippa for a while. They're ministering, they're teaching. It's a prime time to talk about the good news to the pagans or even the Jews in the region. We certainly have the record of Jesus, you know, healing people. He had just come off of before he came here, just come off of feeding the 5,000. So, you know, there's a lot of that kind of thing going on. Just in the context of the visit to Cedare of Philippa, what's interesting about Luke

chapter nine is that it tells us that about eight days after Jesus makes the big statement, he takes a couple of his disciples to the high mountain. And we know the transfiguration story he ascends. And again, this is like the final, you know, warning for the demonic room. What's interesting about that when you figure in the parenthood is that, again, the translation here is about eight days. Well, from the time when Jesus makes these statements to the ending

of the Parenthalia, you're working within that window. And what's interesting, I think it's the last day of the Parenthalia that Jesus does this, that the Transfiguration actually takes place because the last day of the Parenthalia is divided up in these little daily festivals, and the last one was called the Faralia.

And if people want to read more about this, again, it's public record. I would suggest reading Ovid's fast eye because he talks a little bit about you go to the go to the and it's in translation

you don't have to know Latin to do it. I would suggest for James Fraser's translation, it's widely available. So if people want to know no more details about this,

they can certainly look for it themselves. But the last is this really weird festival, the mini festival, the ferrelia. Yeah. And this is when

the most, malevolent and wicked of these underworld spirits was to be placated by the worshipers. Now, isn't it interesting that if I'm right, while that's happening incessary of Philip Pinaeus, Jesus is going up at the same time on Mount Herman and the transfigurationist take place. So that's why I think that there's this, you know, we've at least got a more exacting window to work with here. And these two festivals, first of all, the Lupercalia and also in a wider temporal scope, the parentalia add to the meaning of the visit.

But I also think that on this side of history, it gives us some insight into when all of this has happened. It's kind of like with any festival you sort of have, the Forelia is like the closing ceremonies of this whole festival. And you're saying that Jesus goes on the mountain on that day specifically and transfigures and sort of shines above all of it on top of the mountain. Right, right. Again, it's the same kind of logic of Jesus establishing the church and the Petron Confession all that happening on the loopericalia and the big climate. is at the end of it.

And it says that Roman citizens were instructed to bring offerings to the tombs of their dead ancestors on this day. Do you think the ancients, they're obsessed with the afterlife, they're obsessed with the death of their ancestors, they're building all kinds of monuments all over the world, doing the same things. I mean, it makes me think, and I'm not smart enough to dissect all this, but if Jesus is crushing death, defeating death, and yet, you know, it's... yet you have all these civilizations obsessed with death.

They're afraid to die. They're trying to honor their dead. And Jesus is going to these festivals of the dead. And he's, you know what I mean? Like what he represents is life. And what's interesting to me too is that people believed in the afterlife. People had a framework for the afterlife. People knew exactly where their ancestors went.

And they had festivals to honor them and to pour out offerings to them. they didn't have a belief problem they didn't live in the age of unbelief and christians today you ask a christian like where did where do people go before before christ where did they go and most of us have no idea we have no clue and we're interpreting all these stories with little or no knowledge of these festivals and what they believed and most modern-day christians if you ask them about the afterlife they would say that the ancients were superstitious that's how they would say which is terribly wrong they weren't superstitious they knew they had knowledge. They just believe that their gods were superior. And it's just, it's really frustrating because

it seems like this is like a huge party. This is a massive festival and Jesus rolls in the town in the middle of it. And all the context is lost on us because we just can't visualize it. But think closing ceremonies like in the Olympics. You have this massive event to honor the dead. There's, you know, in modern day terms, there'd be fireworks and there'd be this big production. And Jesus is, you know, climbing the mountain with a few of his disciples ready to do his own miraculous event and shines, right? And I just think that's all lost on us because Christians today, like I said, you know, most people actually, Christians and non-Christians think that the angels are just superstitious. This is just all in their head, but they have this knowledge. They know more

about the afterlife than we do today. That's wild. And so it seems like everyone was obsessed and seeking after this and Jesus is going to these places and he is the counter story to the He is. Yeah. That's why all of this, you know, these other traditions, you know, by the definition would have been anti-Christ. They were false eternities. They were false eternities. They were counterfeit eternities that were being offered. And the toll that people, you know, had to pay in order. to ensure, you know, not even the happiest of eternities, often involved, you know, sacrificial victims, whether they were animal or human. So here you've got this, you know, vampiric element, if you will, to all of these ancient traditions that demanded such a heavy blood toll. And here is Jesus freely offering his blood for the real eternity, not some counterfeit. Yeah. Yeah, it's just interesting.

I just, I like it too, Dave, because it feels like, you know, this is the crescendo of Parentelia, which is this veneration as Judd is talking about of the dead, the Refi'am. Ultimately, it is worship of those that left their estate and rebelled against God, right? If you go all over with the latter. And it really is Jesus dunking on them being like, okay, at this point, the crescendo of your festival, let me just reveal that I am the filment of the law and prophets. And let me let me just get into a cloud. And my father will say, this is my son whom I've chosen, listen to him.

And I love that. I love that. It's like, you're not going to get your moment, right? Because your time is up. And it's such good context because, you know, within that purview, it is absolutely Jesus revealing himself saying, no, this isn't his days and yours. It's mine. It's important to contextualize that as a reference.

not only to the good, but also the evil here. Because I think we get a pretty clear picture from Scripture that the demon, Satan and the demons had some idea of what was coming down the pipe, but they didn't have an exact idea. That's why so many of the giant tribes cluster in the Levant, you know, they're sort of tripping over each other's big feet because they don't know exactly where the Messiah is coming back, but they got this general idea. and so they never have the specificity of the heavenly perspective, but they can see farther down the road they can prognosticate, you know, more than humans can. But it was still an imperfect view down the pike. And all of this was kind of a revelation.

You could say that it starts, you know, the big surprise starts with the birth of Jesus. You know, they're like, whoa, what is this, what is going on here? And that revelation, you know, in a lot of ways, comes to its apex with the transfiguration. We know what happens after that. He goes down to Jerusalem to die. And regardless, I think what's so dismissing a lot of times is that people view pagans and pagan religions and pagan festivals. Like, they didn't have a reason or rhyme or there was no power or reason. You know what I mean? Like, they're very dismissive of them.

And yet you see these festivals. all over. Is this connected to, I think it's Lemuria? Didn't the Romans have like a three-day festival exercised their own dead from their houses? That's right. Yes, they did. And in fact, the ferrelia is also part of the rights that were observed during that last part of the parentalia were exorcism rights. They were to drive back and out these malevolent

underworld spirits. So when do you think, Jesus was crucified, because what if he's crucified on one of those holidays? Well, that, I mean, that's a whole other can of worms. It's a other episode. That was that. But what I'm saying is that's all of this, that's carrot, right? And that's why I'm saying. I mean, what we usually celebrate resurrection Sunday, it's in the spring, right?

So if all of this is happening in mid to, you know, the last day of all this happening is the 21st, 22nd. Six weeks down the line, you're in, you're in the Eastern territory, right? I mean, in terms of timing. It's just, well, it's interesting because the Lemaria festival, it says that all the temples were closed for three days, and you couldn't get married. And they're what? They're trying to exercise ghosts

and restless dead from their homes. And I don't know. I'm just like peering into these ancient festivals and how much they were paranoid and knew about the dead and the underworld and the afterlife. And we talk a lot about on our show, but we kind of go back and we look at some of the clues that are there. But no Christians reading the Bible are understanding like how paranoid these people were about family lines and their history and their ancestors. Like we, today, like, I mean, most people don't go to the graves or see anything or we don't, we don't really have any thoughts or feelings about these things. We kind of go, you know, go to the graveyard every once in the west. Yeah.

Not in the West. Yeah. Not in the West, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, so what is the lesson there? Don't get, don't get married during an exorcism. It's a good one. That's one to say, kind of write that one down, Jed.

That's your next book. That's sort of, yeah, that's sort of like never getting pulled in a land war in Asia. Right. Only slightly less famous. My man. Well play. It's never going to involve with Sicilian when death is on the line. That's right.

Wrong movie. Wrong movie. Great movie. It's a great movie. I know. I couldn't think of a back to the future. Time traveling is just too dangerous. Better that you devote yourself to the study of the great mystery of the universe.

Women. Women. It's amazing to me. Well, it's not amazing. The Dr. Brown thought that that was like the ultimate. The ultimate, most challenging, the ultimate, most challenging scientific mystery. And it very well, maybe. So then wrap it up with us, Judd.

What is the transfiguration really mean to you? That it's at the end. It's at the end of this festival. Like, what does Jed's brain tell him? It is the last, in this passage, it is, and really, in a lot of ways, in Jesus' ministry, It's really like the next to the last display of God's jurisprudence against the demonic room. But, I mean, the other side of that is that it also puts in glorified form the last piece, or the second to last piece of the puzzle in place for Jesus to carry out his mission on earth,

which was again to provide redemption for humanity. Again, you know, I've read these passages over and over. this year, it just really kind of dropped out. But what it illustrates ultimately is that it is the perfect timing and the perfect intent of our Heavenly

Father. And that manifested throughout the entirety of Jesus' ministry on Earth. Why do you think at the end of all this craziness with the transfiguration and the disciples of the cloud and hearing the audible voice of God and seeing Elijah and Moses and asking to build

you know, should we build shelters for you guys? It says they kept this themselves and did not tell anyone. Why do you think that is? Like if you were to have this happen, I know this happens throughout Jesus' ministry. He tells people, don't tell anybody this.

Don't tell anybody I healed you. Don't tell anybody about what I did. And I think maybe there's a whole episode in something why Jesus wants these things. It's probably timing, and we're talking about timing this episode. But I always find that fascinating that you have something unbelievable. miraculous happened to you and you got to keep the biggest secret of your life and not and not

tell anyone up to the point to when Jesus was resurrected again it's all it's all it's all part of sacred time correct um and the more i think about jesus ministry in the context of sacred geography and sacred time you know it it it's you know it's like it's like the signs and the heavens you know it's like one side of that is, we could say, is it glorified, you know, the movement of the stars and the planets and the arrangement. It glorifies God. You know, it is, in a lot of ways, it is a kind of cosmic block. But it can also be, you know, manipulated for selfish and evil ends in a like manner, not the latter, not the using it for selfish ends, but for the glorification of God, you know, there is a timing and a pacing to what he does.

I mean, to sort of expand this and draw it back a little bit, look at the prophetic timing that we read throughout, especially the Old Testament, but also the New Testament as we're starting to see and have been seeing unfolding around us for some time. The locations are important and the times are important because, again, they inform the nuance of context. and therein lies a more complete theology. If it's the more bereft of context, you're reading of scripture is the less grounded theology. Wow. Timing and location, right? Some of the most important things there are.

It's interesting, Jed. I'm reading about the Ferralia that's this last day where the Transfiguration takes place, and the Roman citizens were told to bring bread-soaked wine to offer the dead. Yep. Now there's... That's right.

There's an imagery. So Jesus is... Right. ...goes in as a last meal. And he does that. Yeah. There's so much wrapped up in here. Yeah.

Yeah. It's the same... It's the same sort of imagery that's at play in the pagan. Except they're offering to their underworld spirits and gods who were taking flesh and blood. Jesus is offered his flesh and blood. Yeah. And think about this too, right? And I love that

what you just made me think that this is this is it. Is do this in remembrance of me and it's not because Jesus is dead. It's because he's alive. Think about how we've flipped this. It's not a veneration of the dead. It is a worship of he who is alive

and on the throne. That's it. I love it, man. John, this has been, dude, this has been great. sacred timing, sacred geology. I love the way you think about these things. And it's so great to have you back and to be talking about timing and locations when it comes to cosmic warfare and cosmic geography in its relation to physical geography and the ministry of Jesus.

And then, of course, spiritual warfare that comes alongside that, of course, it is intertwined inevitably with what Jesus is doing. And it's awesome. So thank you for that. That is, there's no one better to espouse upon the mysteries of Penaeus than Dr. Judd Burton. And grateful to have you back in the blurry verse doing, doing the thing, doing your thing.

And you got a song and a dance. Dude. We started out with a song. The crescendo just kept building. It was like, you think that's the high point? It's not the high point. It is working towards transfiguration. And, well, Judd, we love you, man.

We're so great to sit down and have another conversation with you. You'll everybody know what you're up to. I know that you have some things kind of on the horizon here. We've talked about, and maybe things you're not ready to announce yet, but if you'd like to talk about what's coming down the pike for you, that would be fantastic because I think people, of course, in our audience, they love you. They've been waiting for your dulcet tones to return,

and I'd love to hear about what's happening in the in Burton and Beyond. Hey. Well, the new website is Burton Beyond.net. So if people want to go, they can look at the new and improves stuff. And I've got new coursework that I'm planning to, my initial plan had been to deploy it this month. But it's probably going to be towards the end of the month before we can deploy the new stuff. Doug Van Dorn and I are working on a book right now on the serpent mound of Bashan, which is in the region of the Upper Galilee, like we're talking about, you know, we're talking about Paneus today.

So there's going to be some overlap there with some of tonight's material. But this fall, we hope to start new filming for French Pop 321, which of course is part of our friend, Dr. Michael Heiser's legacy. Dr. Aaron Jenkins and I will be the new host. Mike had asked us to do that. So many doctors. It's not a medical show, though, right? It's not a medical show. There's a lot of doctors.

You can't keep a good scientist down. That's right. That's right. That's right. So those are some of the things that they were cooking that are in the pack. I love that. We'll do. I love it.

We'll do. We'll love you. We're going to have some things to do down the road. So we're excited to see you, man. And excited that you're on the mend. That's great. And, you know, if you're listening, Jud could use your prayers as well as he heals up.

And so we're asking you guys just join us and lifting up Judd and his health as he continues to rehab. And, yeah, man, we're just, it's good to see your face, man. You look good, you know. That's great. Great to be back. Yeah, and if you have any, if you want to write up a little bit about some of the stuff in this episode, maybe

posting the members group, some of these festivals, maybe a little detail. Like, if you want to throw it in the back end, I think our listeners would love it. We got a good group of members now. I think that would be cool, Judd. Like, Judd's in our members group. So if you haven't become a member of the show, too, Judd's always in there chatting away. The ladies are chasing them down. He's lurking in there.

Just always. He's lurking to make sure he's correcting all the hermeneics in there that are, the need to be corrected. That's right. That's right. All done love. Yes. But it'd be cool.

It'd be cool to get some more info on these festivals and kind of give some context to what's going on. Yeah. I feel like this whole topic is pregnant with so much meaning. Oh, yeah. They were just slapping those thighs, you know? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Get out the old whip.

This just sounds a little weird, but, you know, it's some people's thing. This show took such a time. Such a weird. at the end. This may get edited out. It might. Do you have to turn this off for this digresses completely? This is all of the NSA

Yeah, this is, this is all this is all like the director's cut. This is B-roll at the end. You don't get this until, anyway, we love you, bro. Love you too, man. Love you too, guys. I appreciate it.

It's so good to see you, bro. That's good. There you go. There, Jed. See, sir.