Blurry Creatures - EP: 184 The Supernatural with the Cultish Podcast

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

This week we have a special crossover show with the Cultish podcast. We get into depth about the history of Blurry Creatures and how the show has evolved over time. We discuss everything from the complexity of current events and why the church often dismisses things that can't be easily explained. support the show! blurrycreatures.com/members Guest: https://thecultishshow.com Intro song: Dreamkid83 contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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when you look at these things, whether it's somebody who's had some sort of encounter, whether it's like a blurry creature, or in this case, you know, looking at the conversations surrounding a UFO sighting, whether it's Dr. Stephen Greer or Commander David Fraser who was flying, you know, an F-16 and saw this Tic-Tac encounter, well, all these things are happening in God's world.

So like Walter Martin would say in this book, The Kingdom of the Occult, like all things are created by you. Whatever is going on, this is existing in God's world where all things were created by Christ and for Christ. So we need to be able to figure out. We can't just stick our heads in this hand. Like we have to be able to wrestle through and figure out what these things are.

The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. Joy to journey. The Smithsonian. that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church,

they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big. deal all right welcome back to to the blurry verse Luke we're doing a we're doing a we're doing a crossover podcast with the culture's podcast and we've i first heard about you guys from dr michael hezer uh he was talking about you guys on our episode we did with him uh i think it was in the in the 30s

we're in the 34 name yeah we're in like 175 175 now so we're it's been a while we've we've been talking forever about doing this smash up i think of like a year yeah so the way we kick off our podcast always is what are your thoughts on bigfoot? You guys have done episodes on Bigfoot so maybe you don't want to go there. Well, I'll go there. I don't, odd to ask Andrew if he has any formulated opinion on it. It's interesting for me. My first exposure to Bigfoot was the infamous Harry and the Henderson's, you know, so you think about the classic show. I'm an 80s kid. And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And you kind of, I kind of knew about it in passing. I think there is something to it. It kind of reminds me of where, you know,

the UFO conversation was like 25, 30 years ago when most of the time people knew there was something in the sky. But to go any further in that, I mean, that was kind of reserved for X files or whatever. Subreddits were back then. I don't even know what, like, what was a Reddit thread like back 30 years ago? It was like a chat room on America Online. It was an angel fire website. Right.

Yeah, it was like, there's, it's interesting because, I mean, there's a similarity where there's a lot of people who tangibly have independent, you know, witness that they've had some interaction with something that typically is, you know, in a forest and kind of like the northern hemisphere, for example, a lot of times. But very, you know, different where like UFOs will show up around like desert air, desert terrains or bodies of water, which we'll definitely talk about when it comes to UFO disclosures. But yeah, I think there's also something to it in the sense to where there is sort of like a spiritual component where, you know, a lot of times, you know, as we'll talk about usually the close encounters of the first, second and third kind, even fourth kind, eventually lead to close encounters of the fifth kind, which is, you know, by way through occultic practices.

So, yeah, I think it's, I don't have a fully formulated opinion. I think it's tangible. I don't think you could just explain it away. Like, this is just something that people are all just sort of making up in their heads. I think there's something really tangible to it. I mean, when I was talking with Dr. Ray Boucher and my friend Sarah, you know, both of them are avid believers in Bigfoot. and they have a very, you know, level-headed approach to it. So, yeah, I think there's some tangibility.

I think I have a lot to, you know, further exploring the topic, but it's definitely fascinating. Yeah, we've interviewed probably 40, 50 doctors at this point on the show, and only a few have no thoughts, have no thoughts on Bigfoot. Famously, Tim Mackey, the Bible Project, that was one of my favorite answers. He's like, well, right? And we love Tim, but he was like, I haven't really thought about it. I'm like, dude, you live in Portland. You're like in the apex of the vortex of the vortex, man.

Like, you haven't thought about, you know, at least gone to his store and seen all the memorabilia and been like, man, maybe I should think about there's something running around. Well, that's what he said. Yeah, he said that. Maybe I should have thoughts on Bigfoot. If I should have thoughts on it.

But yeah, usually people have thought. I love what you said, Jeremiah. And that's kind of where we've come on in our journey is that there are two very, very opinionated camps in the, in the Bigfoot world. And you are either in one where this is like 100% you know, an undocumented primate or unclassified, unfilomized, whatever you want to, you know, it's a primate out there and it's 100% an animal and it's just very, very elusive.

And then you have this other camp that's called the Wu, right? And they don't like each other at all. That's stuff all you learn. As you go along in this and Nate, you know, they spent 10,000 hours remodeling houses, listen to Bigfoot podcasts. You know, that's sort of the genesis for our podcast was just like, they started being theologians. As Nate was said, they started being theologians that came on these shows.

And you're like, that's a weird thing to have. And, you know, for a hairy creature in the woods. But there's this other camp that says there's, there's something very supernatural or wooish is the term about this thing. Because there are enough stories anecdotally that this thing, you know, I don't know, associated with UFOs, you know, vanishing in front of people's eyes. Like not just like you look away and it's gone. Like it's just gone in front of your eyes or trying to cite it up in a gun. And then it disappears. It sort of dematerializes.

And, you know, those are anecdotal stories. But, you know, as Dr. Michael Heiser, who was, you know, on our show a couple times said, and like, if just one of those is true, then it changes the entire paradigm. It causes you have to have to consider what's really happening. And there's something weird. And there's something very weird about. And also, it's the most popular one, right? It's the sports analogies and be like it's like the enabling patriots of cryptids.

But all the pictures aren't any good anymore. So it's like the chiefs of cryptids right now, right? Where it's the most popular one and all the kids are buying the jersey. So. Yeah. Well, with your guys is interest in Bigfoot, for you. Did that start like before the podcast or just come about by way of people initially, you start to see it consistent people giving opinions on it.

So you gave it more of a focus or what was the cows for you guys to have an interest in it or even this podcast, the podcast you guys do? Well, our episode one, we call it Bigfoot's the gateway drug and it really is because it's the most popular like Luke said. It's people see it more than anything else and you can dabble in Bigfoot. You can you can still be kind of credible. Like I said, like all these doctors have thoughts on Bigfoot. It's not like so niche or so out of the box that people are afraid to talk about it. Yeah. Like the UFO thing used to be that way, but in the last few years now it's not. Everyone's talking about it. But I think for me, it was 2011, 2012. I went from playing music full time being in a band with, you know, with people all day long to being by myself and remodeling some houses, trying to figure out what's next in life. And I just, Bigfoot was the right amount of weird and the right amount of interesting. So I just got sucked into it. And it was always the hunters and the cops and the military that were telling their stories about, I just thought, men, I don't

think these guys are lying. Yeah. What the heck is this thing? And I just got sucked into more and more of it. And then I got into the missing 4-1-1 stuff with David Politis about national parks and state parks, people going missing. I started listening to him on coast to coast. And then around five, six years later, after I watched all the documentaries and I was

really down that rabbit hole, then I started hearing theologians coming on podcast talking about the Nephlem. And I grew up in the church. I grew up in Camps Crusade, Young Life, I worked at a camp. No one ever talked about this. And it just really was like, wow, how come nobody's talked about this before? So then I was like, I think there's a connection here. There's this, there's this weird paranormal stuff that the church isn't talking about.

And there's this theological thread that ties in my whole upbringing and my faith and came up with the name blurry creatures, had the logo and the website ready to go for a while. And then Luke was tweeting about Bigfoot one day. And we had, we'd done a podcast on an episode together on a. another podcast and we had a bunch of mutual friends and I was like and I know Luke used to have a podcast with his brother and I was hey man I got this thing ready to go we know the same folks we're we're kind of casual friends I think there's this weird thread bigfoot theology and Christianity that I think it could be something what do you think he's like I'm in and he was 100% in and

and then we started talking about big foot in the beginning but quickly it got into all the blurry creatures, which is everything from UFOs, aliens, giants, skin walkers, when to go, all the weird stuff. I think we jumped into a stream and it just kind of took us where it was going to go. And I don't think we really had a lot of say in the matter. Yeah. And I think that, but we always wanted to, you know, being Christians, our goal was to, because that's our foundation and our worldview, was to filter all that back through biblical lens and try to understand it.

Because I think the more that we got into this guy is more figured that people have odd and strange and paranormal experiences. and Christians do. And there's this some sort of knee-jerk reaction a lot of times for people that somehow something that is outside the realm of their explanation or what the church talked about will disqualify their faith or shake their faith. And I think not knowingly, kind of just being two guys stumbled into it in some ways, we wanted to try to provide better answers for hard questions.

Maybe questions don't even have. They don't have answers. We don't know exactly what's going on the UFO thing until one lands on the White House lawn, as famously says, right? Or we won't exactly know what's going on with Bigfoot until someone bags one. I don't think that's ever going to happen, but, you know,

pulls one out, pulls it out of the forest per se, right? You don't have these answers, but what you can do is talk people that put it in 10,000 hours. And most of our guys come from a commonality in faith and try to, and try to provide better answers that, frankly, fit.

You know, there's a, if we look at our Bibles as Christians, there's so much weird stuff in there that I think a lot of times gets glossed over because it won, it becomes it's uncomfortable and two isn't the most conducive to a five-part sermon on sundays right so for sure it's easier to skip over some of that stuff than to try to address it especially you know especially being so separate in time from you know from a Middle Eastern culture where these things

where you know where our scriptures were written you know four thousand years ago right we are sometimes just in some ways prisoners of our you know of our separation and time and so we're just trying to go back and understand some of these things and and and and and then pull common threads. And so I don't think it was intentional. I always had an interest in Bigfoot on my end. You used to watch finding Bigfoot and they never found anything. You know, spoiler alert, sorry if you watch the show. They're not going to, they don't find anything, right? Yeah, that's interesting. I always find it a like the concept of thinking about, well, what was life like before Christ died on the cross and resurrected like it says in Colossians that he disarmed all rulers,

principalities and powers through his death, burial and resurrection, meaning I think that within the worldview that we operate today, especially coming out of like a Renaissance post-enlightment period, we're very materialistic people, even as Christians, that we often forget that the Bible is full of wonder, right, and full of enchantment. It makes me like just think about how interesting or even more paranormal the world may have been prior to the sacrifice of Christ, because I think that had paranormal effects all throughout time, especially if we're talking about what could be preternatural or supernatural entities like, let's say, Bigfoot, not seeing very many of them around today, but they're elusive.

But maybe these things, there was a lot of them at one point of time, you know, which is something interesting to think about. But I have a really interesting question for you guys because we're talking about Bigfoot. I've never really heard about, you know, how you can just disappear and like things like that. Is there any relation to like the Loch Ness Monster with that too? Like the Loch Ness Monster kind of disappear sometimes that it could be some preternatural type of entity you're being. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

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his best friend had an encounter on the base, and older guys retired, high security clearance, and it comes on the base, comes on the runway, and this guy's doing the patrols, because you got aircraft coming in at night. And he flips on code 17. Everyone comes out of the base and they track this thing into the,

into the woods and then it just disappears. It's just gone. Well, better, yeah, no. I mean, they track it. So get this, they track it to a ditch where, and these guys are all live. Like, you know, all their weapons are live. He said there's a bunch of 20-year-olds with automatic weapons that are, that have cornered what, it's intruder, right?

And this guy is freaked out saying, man, this wasn't a person, right? But they get into a ditch where it's cornered. Yeah. And they actually have motion sensors on the hill behind it. And they kind of it goes off. And rabbit will set off this motion sensors. So they had many false alarms from like little tiny animals setting this off. He's there's no way it could have got out without us seeing it or tracking it.

And it just it's like a advantage. It's gone. Which is it's just one. That's one story. That's one story. That's just this week. Yeah, that's just this week. There's a ton of these where there's this like sort of dematerializing, right?

But there's stories about people raising up a shotgun and these things on their porch and then it's gone. It's not that they look away. It's not that it's like it was a blink of an eye. It just is gone. And again, right, these are people's stories. But there's enough of them where you go, hey, there's got to be something. There's something to this. And then you get all the other really odd stuff like orbs and even people with a UFO connection.

And you go, and this is just me. I tend to start to lean towards maybe there's some interdimensionality. And this is, you know, obviously you get in the weeds with this kind of stuff, but scientifically, you talked about scientific, right? We live in this empirical era where everything is measured. And that's why we, when things are called supernatural or even the miraculous, we didn't, we did an interview on miracles with Dr. Craig Keener. And you have these things, all it means is just something that happens. It's outside of the natural order, right? It breaks the natural laws. And so these things all happen, these sort of anomalous things. I mean, how do you quantify that? And that is hard. But there's enough of this. You go. if one of these is true, then we have to reconsider. And we know that mathematically, if you, you know, if you buy mathematics as a, as a solid

foundation or a solid practice that they can mathematically prove something on a measure of like 11 dimensions, right? And so if we go down quantums in that way, then you go, okay, we know there's other dimensions. Mathematically, we can prove this. So if that's the case, then do we have something that's able to, you know, they can get into weirdly weird conversations, but maybe it makes sense. It's like, you know, if God, God lives outside of time, right?

We get into a crazy dimensional conversation, but there's something there. Well, Heiser put it really good on an episode we did with him. He said, you know, like, he's like, I'm fully, I believe in science. But science can only tell us what happens in, you know, our three dimensions. But the Bible says there's another realm. And science, you can't, you know, you can't use science to explain the other realm. Yeah. He had a really good way of saying that, you know, on earth, we can taste, touch, and smell things.

And that's what science can tell us about. But there's this other realm that science can't explain. And so the weird part about our show is there's a physicality to all of this. So there's a physicality to UFOs and people retrieving these metals that don't exist here or craft parts or anti-gravity, you know, stories of interacting with the technology. It's very strange. And then Bigfoot gets shot sometimes. and leaves hair on. There's footprints. It was footprints around.

Famously. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a, you know, there are people who've done genetic studies on it and it comes back unknown. That's the hard part is it's, it's sort of here, but sort of not here. And I think that's why we haven't pulled one out of the woods because we're not dealing with just normal, you know, undocumented animal here. We're dealing with something else.

Yeah. No, it's interesting, too, is that, you mean, from us, like, we both come from, Andrew and I, we both come from the reform background. I think one of the challenges that we've had, like with our podcast, too, is just, just really trying to really make an emphasis on, like, the unseen realm is like a real, a tangible thing that scripture talks about. And I think some of it, you know, with the reform camp and just sometimes people in general, we've seen from our podcast and people that we've interacted with, you know, the same thing, too, the Renaissance and Enlightenment period.

I think there's sort of a prejudice towards materialism. But then we take those prejudices and we sort of take a prejudice towards the material versus the un-material that we can't see with our naked eye. And I think that's one of the challenges. that the church has the whole has. So one of the, I mean, obviously the world's crazy right now, but one of the most amazing things is that, you know, people who are heavily involved in the new age and the alcohol, like, that's exploding. But there's also tons and tons of people that we've interviewed who've come to Christ out of the new age. But they all have these crazy experiences that because they've gone, they've explored the supernatals in ways that God says that's off limits, you know? Like, Heiser would even say, too, like God's not trained to be a killjoy.

You know, he has ways to experience him. Like in God's presence, there's fullness of joy, right? But there's people who experience it in a way that God says, don't do that. You're going to open yourself up to things that are not, that are going to be spiritually dangerous to you. But a lot of times people will come out of a new way, say they've astral projected or they had, you know, some sort of situation where they're experiencing like an abduction, like an actual, like alien abduction. They call out to Jesus and the deduction stops. Like, well, what was that? And that leads them to go to a Bible.

and then they, by way of that, they become converted, they come to Christ. But there's a lot of churches where if a new age or came and told them their legitimate story, they would probably find some ways to explain it away and say, no, that's just all in your head, you know. And that's a real challenge. And so I've got at the point where a couple of years ago, you know, like, I feel like almost that conversation we have is a total normal thing and it's fun. There's a couple of years ago, if someone come up and told me like some sort of story or experience like that, I would be very much having a willing suspension of disbelief, but now it doesn't surprise me. I think I had a conversation with a lady who was, I was talking

to her and she's talking about her being a Bernie man and that came by way of me talking to her saying, well, you know, are you using psychedelics? And I said, well, so what's it like to contact those green entities at three o'clock in the morning? And she was taken back that I told her that. And she admitted to that and I believed her, but I used it as a catalyst to be able to share the gospel with her. So I think when you actually acknowledge the reality at Rome for the lens of scripture, it's a really powerful apologetic. What are your thoughts, Andrew? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's something that we do need to think about as Christians as being thinking people, critically thinking people and dwelt by the Holy Spirit, right?

It's nothing that we should be, you know, afraid of to even think about that it could somehow disneyed. destroy our faith. And I understand that it's people can struggle with things that they don't have answers for. But what's funny as being a Christian, we're the most supernatural people in a sense that we believe that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ actually had physical ramifications, but not just that, but an actual spiritual ramification that I was dead in my trespasses and sins. And now I've been brought to life. Like that's a, that's a supernatural experience that any Christian, uh, ultimately has gone through. But, um, in terms of, what could be considered blurry.

I'm just wondering too with the with the lockdex monster because I want to know are there like any types of uh what is it like eyewitness accounts to where maybe it's like disappeared or something like that. I know it's in a lake but even bringing it back to Bigfoot is there like some similar like cohesive line of evidence that shows that a lot of these like cryptid cryptic or cryptid I think I'm saying it wrong cryptid type animals like sometimes can just materialize and dematerialize I'm really interested. Well, all the Skinwalker went.

go stuff is in Bigfoot and even modern day werewolf sightings are in that space. I think I think Loch Ness is just like a remnant of like most people think it's just a plesiosaurus. It's just this dinosaur that, you know, or water animal that just can go underwater for days on end and comes out and the night and appears to people. There's not a lot of paranormal that I've researched quite a bit about it. It's interesting, but it's also spooops about it's a little boring. It also makes it like tough to wade through, right, because we know people have spoofed it. But I do think that there's a lot of, some of the immaterial things are fascinating. Honestly, are a lot associated with the occult, too, when you talk about skin walkers

and when you talk about even werewolves and the like, and those things are very demonic. Yeah. And there's a very bizarre set of circumstances. Yeah, they stick in your head a little bit more because they're so terrifying. It's hard not to, you know, it's like a scary movie. you remember there's just certain there's a certain flare that just it just sticks out at you especially the bigfoot stories too the ones that are just really weird are the ones you remember and the ones what the ones that are just like oh it came out and left or like it popped his head out of

the water and went down it's like there's not a whole lot to go on it doesn't really but it's the paranormal stuff that really starts to get your wheels turning like wait gotcha there's no occultic people trying to summon lockness like doing like weird meditation and change but it's the paranormal stuff I mean, that's the right part of the world. Oh, the local wizards of the local Scottish wizards. You know, they cast a protective spell. They're trying to summon Nessi out of there. Napoleon, Napoleon knows about that.

But, yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, people want to do episodes on that. And I think we're just, we'll probably come around to it at some point. But for now, it's a little bit, it's just not weird enough to really. Yeah, I get you. I get you. What about those? We stick to with the weird stuff.

Yeah, what about the modern day werewolf thought that you guys get into you? I've never heard of anything like that before. Tell me what is a werewolf then? They call them Dogman. And it's basically just like exactly how you would see it in your mind. It's just like a werewolf creature that sort of more terrorizing. See, Bigfoot has neutral encounters. But Dogman, these werewolf creatures, I mean, it goes all the way back.

There's a there's a famous story of the Beast of Jevodon in France that was like terrorizing the community and killed a bunch of people and that's well documented, but there's people that have broken it down that there's like multiple types of these things. There's spiritual ones and then there's actual like a physical creature out there too that's it walks on two legs. It looks like a dog. It's stuff out of nightmares. And we have a good friend who has his name's Tony Merkel. He's did a documentary on the dog man. He's kind of the dog man guy. He spoke at our conference and we chat a lot off the, you know, on the phone about stuff like this. but it's it's it's the creepiest one yeah like that and windegos the skinwalker stuff they're all

kind of together i don't know some people say that they're shape shifting and that's possible that's the crazy part about that too is there's a lot of ritual stuff right like where there's this is stuff that happens you know we talk to john redbird dover who was the he was a navajo ranger for 30 years and he has really fascinating stories things happen on the res which i mean wild stuff right seems very, very credible in these accounts and their and their bananas, right? But the, but the talk, there's a lot of, we've done enough talking about this. No, there are apparently like satanic ritual, demonic ritual things that they can have, where people can sort of access this sort of I don't know. It sounds crazy, shape-shifting, but this is what supposedly happens with, with,

like a skin walker is it's, it's, there's human sacrifice involved and there's these really horrible things that people do in order to access. this ability. Did you ever see that 80s movie Silver Bullet? Oh, that rings a bell. It was with that Corey Hame. He was in it. No, I've seen Teen Wolf.

Yeah. There we go. There's this crappy. I mean, we kind of have an 80s flair on our show. It's how we market the show. But they all sort of look the same. Everyone says they kind of have these red glowing eyes. They have this dog face.

And it's just you experience pure terror when you see it. And I've heard so many different. stories. There's actually a podcast called, I think it's just dog man encounters or something like that. And I listened to that for a while. And I had to stop listening to it because those encounters were so terrifying. I got to go back to Bigfoot. This is just, this is way too much while I'm by myself fixing up in the basement or something, fixing up a house. I just creep myself out. But yeah, man, I don't know. I don't know what they are. But they're just one of many blurry creatures out there. Yeah, let me ask you this because I'm curious because like I said, the blue like the

blurry creature world is that's where we've only barely tapped into a little bit we usually deal with the cults the new age topics me UFO is kind of our strong suit but um we think like with all the encounters you think of somebody who's experiences something traumatic and they see something that they they don't really recognize but it's like they but they would use things around their environment to describe it so do you think you think what the like a lot of these eyewitnesses of people who've had encounters with these different blurry creatures whether it's bigfoot or even these other accounts of saying like a Werewolf or you know just any of those categories do you think that's something that they're tangibly

Actually seeing or it might be something where they're so it's something that if the cage is supernatural demonic it's so terrifying The only thing they're trying to utilize to describe it is to make describe it using their surroundings of things they do understand to explain what they don't understand Like where do you think that where do you think that falls in like that category when it comes to people who've experienced these encounters regardless of the creature I think it reminds me of like our episode with Tim Albarino. He's a, he's sort of modern day Indiana Jones guy. We just went to Peru with him. And his whole thing is like he tries to put things in physical terms. Like maybe aliens are just angels flying around. And there's stories in the Bible where they have to get from point A to point B. So why we have this very spiritualized version of everything that isn't a humanity. But a lot of people come on our show say there was this interaction between humans and

angels and their offspring were giants, right? That's that's sort of the biblical account in Genesis 6 that a lot of people talk about on our show. And you have two camps. You have people who say, that's impossible. There's no way because they bring all this preconceived ideas of what an angel is because they've been taught sort of this medieval, you know, modern perspective of this, but they don't have an ancient one. And so I think a lot of times the physicality of things that we don't understand, we spiritualize it. Oh, you know, like angels are just this chubby things flying around with wings. What if they're a lot like us?

Because a lot of people encounter them. They call them the Nordics or the tall blondes. And they encountered them in Sodom, Gomorrah, different parts of the Bible. Like, why do we have this, they're like see-through spiritual things that don't have any physical physicality to them? So I think when you go, that's kind of where we started with the show, kind of go back and sort of get a real raw sort of alternate history and go into some of these topics. and then you kind of move it up to a modern day that, you know, I believe that all flesh was corrupted. It wasn't just like a physical rebellion or a moral rebellion. I mean, it wasn't just a moral rebellion.

It was a physical, spiritual, technological. The ancients were rebelling every single way they could. And I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they were taking God's creations and they were making chimeras and they were doing all kinds of things to just destroy anything that God made and had the image of God in them. And I still think there's some remnants today because we interviewed so many people who have these encounters. So I think this stuff is more physical than spiritual, to be honest. I think people say they run into giants in Afghanistan.

People say they run into Bigfoot in places you would never expect. Like what's it doing near a city? Why are these things so close to humans sometimes? Right. And you can't just spiritually explain it all the way. And I think a lot of people want to do that. But I do think some of the Wendigo Skinwalker stuff and, like, demonic stuff is more in the spirit realm. It's a spirit that's being manipulated.

But some of these other things are just, they're like a chimera. They're like a half and half. There's some blend between the physical and the spiritual that we can see, touch. It leaves evidence, those kinds of things. So it's, from a scientific perspective, you can say that there is evidence for this. But then there are other creatures that can just whisper away. And I think a lot of the UFO encounters, it's like they can manipulate the laws of nature and they can just, maybe they don't disappear. Maybe they just bend gravity and you can't see it, right?

Yeah. And maybe some of these other creatures can do that too. And they're still there, but you just can't perceive them. Like the predator, right? Yeah, exactly. I wish I could. I wish I was a long-minded answer. I wish I was a person that clicking predator sound like that, you know, everyone knows that one sound.

which I was actually surprised the recent, you guys see the recent movie? The recent movie, Pray? No. Oh, okay. It was the most updated, like, Prater movie on Hulu. It was surprisingly, like, enjoyable,

which I was really surprised by. Can we get a review by Matthew McConaughey? It was all right. It was all right, all right, all right. But check this. This is a, when you talk about, like, the ancient world, I think this is interesting. Andrew, I don't know if you know this story,

but, like, our pastor, you may know him Jeff Durbin. He's under our studio as our pastor. But in the early days of our church, He was a pastor at Addiction Recovery Center called Calvary Diction Recovery Center, and so he was just helping people who were coming out of addiction. And he had actually gotten a call from the History Channel, and they're looking to do a special on the whole history of drug use.

And he ended up getting an interview, and turns out the interview was Dean Norris, who played Hank's creator from Breaking Bad. So if you actually look up Jeff Durbin, Breaking Bad, Dean Norris, you actually see the interview with him. And he was just asking him about the whole history of drug use. And, you know, in the documentary, it's on the history channel. It was called the stoned ages. And it was just about the whole history of people utilizing, you know, different drugs throughout the years, whether it's like some sort of psychedelic or something of that nature.

And really honestly, a lot of is like, man, this is really nothing new under the sun. People taking psychoactive substances to get into an alter state of conscience to contact an entity. Like you saw that depicted in the movie 300. You know, you have, they want to get the word from the high priest. So they have this one lady very promiscuously take a psychedelic and she does what she does to get in contact with something. That's that's the message that the high priest has. So you have that, right, you have the Oracle. And then, so even like a lot of modern movies, there's a lot of things that are depicting like real realities, like the Doctor Strange movies.

The second one, there's a huge, there's a big point in the very pivotal moment where a large place where a scene takes place in the whole movie. movie is this temple that's up in the high places. And so this is like a Disney secular company that's making these movies and people can say what you have about Disney and how they're just burnt, you know, they're losing money and every other movie is bombing at the box

office. But Dr. Strange and what's articulated in the second Dr. Strange movie, this temple up in the high places, they're tapping into something that's real and tangible. And even at the end of the Dr. Strange movie, when he all of a sudden, it's very animated and this isn't what you'd see in real life. You see like a third eye going on his forehead. So you do see a lot of real modernization or sort of like a resurgence of the occult war as I believe it's Peter Jones who gave the term like neo paganism.

It's basically pagan, ancient paganism repackaged for today. And so a lot of times like what we see, you know, it's not that we've explore like, man, this is new, but it's also it's not new. Like even the UFO conversation, there's a lot of times when you look at all the modern day disclosure. option, things, and it's very politically charged. You know, a lot of times people will disavow it because it's the Biden administration that's dealing with the disclosure thing when it was Trump just four years ago. But the reality is the idea of objects in the sky moving in ways that defy the laws of physics. This has been something that's been going on for a long time.

There's a reason why in Renaissance paintings you see pictures of circular like objects up in the sky. And so, like one of the things I realized, too, like as a Christian is that, you know, when you look at these things, whether it's somebody who's had some sort of encounter, whether it's like a blurry creature or in this case, you know, looking at the conversation surrounding a UFO sighting, whether it's Dr. Stephen Greer or Commander David Fraser who was flying, you know, an F-16 and saw this TikTok encounter. Well, all these things are happening in God's world. So like Walter Martin would say in his book, The Kingdom of the Occult, like all things are created by, Whatever is going on, this is existing in God's world where all things were created by Christ and for Christ. So we need to be able to figure out. We can't just stick our heads in the sand.

Like we have to be able to wrestle through and figure out what these things are. I think it's interesting. What the case you're making is something that we've talked about on our show. We've talked about how we actually made a case that atheism is dying out. And I think you make an interesting point like this rise of the new age and neo-paganism. I think we're reaching a time in this timeline where people are, have a hunger for spiritual, spirituality,

whatever you want to call it. People will tell you they're spiritual, right? But there's this, I really believe there's this movement now that people are going to, are looking for something to believe in. I think that's why we see the popularity of ancient aliens for one, which is completely the end of noaki and all that thing. It's, it's this explanation for,

you know, nothing new, right? It's this, it's this alternative explanation for our creation. It sounds a lot like the Anuma Elish and the serpent being on the top and serpent being the creator God and all these. It's not new. But I think we're moving in the space where people, because of the things that are happening and because of the atmosphere, you know, of the mainstream talking points and even what people are seeing, you know, we talk about the UFO disclosure thing, people are moving to a point where they want to believe in something and not believe in nothing, right? And it's really led to a crazy rise, I believe in the new ways. You talk about psychedelics. Just listen to the, to the, to the

discourse that's happening in mainstream about about sort of the mainstreaming of psychedelics now. Like, you know, Joe Rogan is one of those big proponents of that. And they're normalizing this, right? And what they're, and you made a great point. And this is exactly where we feel as well, is that this is an access point to the supernatural realm. And it's not how we're supposed to do it. It's not the way that God intended it. We're supposed to access God through the channels that he is, he has ordained and created for us. It would be worship, prayer, you know, fasting, those things that he has said, these are the ways, right?

And it's not because God doesn't want us to meet with him and experience it because this is the way that he's designed it, right? But there are these other ways around, right? And these things are massively exploding. Yeah. And the irony, and we've done a couple of shows, is that people are seeing the same things. And so this is really just some experience in your brain.

Why is everyone seeing machine else? Why does everybody have these experiences with the same kind of entities behind this, right? Yeah. If everyone's having their own journey, in their mind on, you know, on ayahuasca or psychedelics, DMT, whatever, right? Then I mean, that to me says they're accessing a plane, talking about astro projection, all these weird things. They're accessing something they're not supposed to do in a way they're not supposed to do it.

The people are hungering for this. And I feel like that's why you guys are cultish, right? I think that's why we're seeing these, like the UFO cult thing and these and the New Age thing and all these different belief systems that really are just repackaging is of really old things as you talked about whether you want to go all the way back to the to the oracles of delphi and you know even back to the golden age as we talk about pre-flood when you know people were worshipping the gods of all whether it be yeah bail and and and all these all these old old entities they're just sort of they're good of marketing right they're just remarketing themselves

I feel like the less of well I was going to say like the lust for knowledge is is the sort of the original deception and I don't think it's gone anywhere and I think that we made it we made a strong case on our show that human beings got all this occult knowledge from somebody something we didn't just make this stuff up we didn't just wake up one day and have all this how do we know how to mind metals how do we know to go to war how do we know how to rebel against god we were taught how to do that and there's a lot of support in the Bible that's you know shows us that yeah human beings learned we're on psychedelics let's talk about like like have you ever looked in the process of how to create DM to activate DMT

tea. How do they learn? How do we know? How in the world did you have to take this plant and then you got to cook it and then you got to do something else to it? Then you got to make a tea and then you got to activate it this way. It's like a, it's like Betty Crocker, right? And it seems to me that seems just way, it's, you to be like, hey, by the way, we just grabbed, you know, I can grab every plant in my backyard. I've got an acre and a half here. And I can mess all. And I'm not going to come up with that. And I'm not, I don't want to discredit like humanity is very ingenious and being able to do a lot. You know, and when God has given us and our ability, and our ability, and we're, and I'm but there are some things that are just like, man, that...

Yeah, we were just in Peru and we were seeing it all, this ancient construction that just is beyond what human beings can build today. We can't replicate it now, which is... We don't know how they did it. And it's, there's this, it's just, there's these little clues that the ancient world was way weirder and way more in rebellion towards God than I think we can even imagine.

And you want to know what these creatures are where they come from and why they do what they do. It's kind of like we're sort of, we get into alternate history a lot. Yeah, and there's definitely lots of rabbit holes You can go down that route I think what's also fascinating is that you know when you do look at There is sort of a danger because like Stephen Bancars You know he's been a you know he wrote the book

You know he was did some stuff with Heiser as well too And he read the book second coming the new age Is that like he got into the new age by way of ancient aliens And so not not to say that they are they're exploring some real tangible topics That he didn't really have any christian he grew up in a Christian household He didn't really have any sort of answers as far as how to give an account for that, you know, but I do think it's, what's fascinating to me, and Andrew, I'll get you a thoughts on this too, is that if all that's true, and like, you know,

you were, we were talking the phone on Saturdays for a little bit before he came up, before we did this a little co-lab, is that with all that you guys saw in Peru and these ancient civilizations and how they're intact, really, if all that is really true and there's, that's really, they were in contact with higher beings, you know, whatever you want to call them, it does seem that, that, The scripture where it talks about how God makes the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, where you have like all these civilizations, for example, like with advanced technology that are super highly evolved because they're tapped into things. Like you look at even like the Aztecs and the movie Apocalyptic, like even in how those temples were shade. Like those ideas really didn't come out of vacuum, especially when you look at the whole history of human sacrifice and things like that.

But honestly, when you look at, okay, so this person gets born in a manger, fully God, fully man is born in a manger, lives a super. humble life and is crucified on a on a Roman cross like that sort of entrance and he makes a full conquest over all principalities and powers that are empowering all these other kingdoms with all this other architecture I mean on some level it puts a lot more like depth and gravitas to like what Christ did what do you think about Andrew do you have any brilliant what do you have any do you have you have any thoughts next I think I'd like to hear your thoughts yeah yeah I've just been I've been working through some of these questions uh myself because it's not typically the realm of thought I dabble in, but I listen to a podcast called the Theology Pugcast. I don't know if you

guys are familiar with that, but there's an episode called The Return of the Old Gods. And they go into a conversation about a book someone had written talking about Beal, the Asherah, and things of that nature where how do we handle in this world today after Matthew 28, 18 through 20, where Jesus is saying, all authority on heaven and earth has been given to me, go therefore, heaven and on earth, right? And then in Psalm chapter two where it says, that all the nations are going to come essentially to obey Christ, lest they be crushed. So thinking about our history or history of the nations, making covenant with God, the God of the Bible, right, after the cross, how do we handle it today when we think about

these things have been defeated in the past? Say there were these powers that had extreme amounts of power ruling over the nations. I know you mentioned Daniel chapter 10 earlier. I think that's when Gabriel comes to Daniel and he's like, sorry, I was the principal Persian. Yeah, yeah. Well, an angel comes to Daniel and he's like, I'm sorry I was held up there with someone fighting with the spirit over the Prince of Persia. Yeah. So say, say that's prior to Christ. How are we supposed to think about that in the realm we live in today where Christ is king encompassing all spheres over heaven and on earth? Are we seeing like a rebellion essentially to Christ within the world we're seeing today and people are trying to dabble within all of these spiritual experiences yet they don't have the same power or love. level or magnitude as they had before. Because I'll be honest with you. Like I go out to Planned Parenthood every single Wednesday and I plead for the life of

unborn children and I say mothers, fathers, please do not murder your children. Right. But it seems like there's something blinding them sometimes. And if we think about old gods of the past, we can think about Mollick and people did the same thing. They sacrifice their children on the altar of Mollick statue made of brass that was hollowed out and fire was put underneath it to glow. his hands and they would put the babies on the hands and they'd beat the drums to drown out the

screams of the babies like these are things that really happened in the past and it's like well how am I trying to think about the power that christ has today and what's going on with the the rebellion of people and the breaking of the covenant that the nations have made with christ does that does that make sense yeah no it's it's it's it's a great question i thought about that a lot on our show too like the difference between you know i asked guys like hazer like what is it what exactly happens in your opinion on the cross, you know, and he talks a lot about the transfiguration, how he goes on the mountain and he shines and he takes just three disciples with him. And then there's just this last miracle that's, you know, before he goes to the cross. And it's, it's sort of glossed

over by a lot of Christians. And I think, I think it's a complicated, we go into that a lot on our show. I think all I can say is we've learned a lot. Like when I was a kid, I grew up thinking idols could be anything. You know, you watch too much football. That's an idol. And I think that's just like a very silly Christianese answer because ancient people weren't worshipping stones. They were worshipping entities that inhabited these things. So they would do their child sacrifice and all this other stuff. And then an entity would come into whatever they were worshipping. It wasn't that they were stupid and they were walking around banging sticks together and worshipping a tree.

They got something from their exchange. And I think we've talked a lot about this on the show that ancient people weren't stupid. but the gods of Egypt were giving them something. They were sacrificing their children willingly because they were receiving something. It wasn't the God of Israel. It wasn't just, it wasn't in their heads. It wasn't make-believe.

They were building things and they actually had powers. And I think that scares a lot of Christians because they just think, oh, I watch too much football. That's an idol for me. I need to stop doing that. And I think idol worship is something completely different and you have to understand it from an ancient perspective and realize that they were building

not just these dynasties, places like in the Holy Land, they were building them all over the world and they had similar knowledge and they were all doing the same thing how why how did all these societies separate from each other over massive distances build the same stuff right and do this and do the same things they they were in rebellion they were taught how to rebel in a way but i but i think that there was an exchange there and so i think to say that is that yeah the the gods of the the old testament were real they were probably they had some authority in some areas and then Christ's death

I think releases it maybe back to human beings being in control of each other and so there's this wound there's this stripping of power but even the demons in the New Testament say have you come is this our time

and they thought Jesus' first coming was his second coming and so there's still this remnant of evil there's still this stuff going on I don't know if they have the same powers that they did before the crucifixion, but it still lingers. And then that's where the debate is of how much power, where are they, you know, are they

locked up, are they released, are what is a demon, what isn't a demon, how much can we be influenced? It's a really good question. I think we just give a lot of context of what the ancient world was like, but I don't know. I don't know how much freedom they have to do whatever they're doing. Yeah, do you know, it's also just interesting and you can give me your thoughts on this. I mean, we always look at those examples. We're talking about the ancient civilizations.

who would do human sacrifices or even, you know, as Christians, you know, we would talk, like, I'm a byproduct of, like, purity culture, like, the whole Josh Harris movement and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, like, Josh Harris, he was like the Justin Timberlake of homeschooling.

So. Dude. Yes. Yes. Yes. But I remember, like, him, you know, given talking about Corinth and the sexual immorality of all that sort of stuff. And it's, and it's obviously interesting in contrast to him now, you know, totally deconstructed and

walking away from the faith. which obviously breaks my heart, you know, and similar people. But honestly, like, what's interesting is that, like, a lot of what's depicted in a Corinth, and even through the lens of, like, purity culture and even my background, like, I didn't really think about the demonic entities that were attached to that type of worship in the sense where, like, Paul gives instruction in Romans how we're supposed to present our bodies as a living sacrifice. And every religion requires sacrifice. You know, you even think about, like, the ancient Mayans, they were being consistent. with the same principle in Romans 12, they are just doing it like in a wrong way.

Yeah. And so like when you look at, you know, every ancient religion, they were always utilizing some form of like sexual immorality as a catalyst to use their body or someone else's body as a living sacrifice. And that's all safe and normal.

Like as long as it's back there in ancient times. All right. I'm going to put my tinfoil hat on here for a second. Right? So I'm going to do a little Alex Jones here for a second. But honestly, but if we be real, when we look at something like Epstein Island, you know, you think about Epstein, you remember how crazy Epstein didn't kill himself was when it came to the whole, when it came to the, you know, just it was, it was like a trending hashtag. I mean, the memes, I came up with a couple of memes myself and a couple of Facebook posts. But honestly, you have a bunch of people who were the ruling class of the world, right, and who are all sort of connected to this group that has to deal with, on some of the people.

levels like sex with underage children they're being blackmail and it's a weird strange rabbit hole and of course people say that you're crazy this is some unique incidents but honestly if you look at that and you look at even like the shape of that temple and mc nine it looks very similar it looks very similar to like a lot of things that are out there and this is something that regardless of what camp of like i'm from the reform camp you know you guys have your camp like we're all and even people like who are more on the ten full of hat like you have people like sam trippily or even Joe Rogan or they've all all of us are looking at this and we're like this is crazy we have we all know this thing exists there's people who are doing the spigal things which i wouldn't even want to talk

about and it's there it's incontivertable like that's no different from that from there but there is something that's truly like tangibly you know evil that you know as a christian even you know like almost like the community especially like with 2020 you know it was a challenging in the sense that I feel like every single headline was was a was the opening was the cover of a wake magazine from the watch tower bible track society you know meteorites going down you look at like you look at like was it like was it like was a Vegas being completely empty you had uh Vegas being completely vacant you had Times Square being completely empty like right around the cusp of like March 2020 when you just saw how crazy everything was and like even like that and even that it's almost like part and partial to So like right now, when people have seen things like Epsine Island, you see all that's happened in 2020 where people don't trust anything, the media tells you. There's this huge, there's this huge willing suspension of disbelief where it's almost created this vacuum where it could be a good thing where people are really spiritually hungry. Like 2020 was an amazing year of, I've actually had people in the podcast who came to Christ as a result of just really questioning the world around them. That led them to the Bible and to embrace you.

the Lord and savor and that's great. But there's also a huge vacuum. And even like the whole Epstein Island thing, as a Christian, I can give an account as to why, like I had points of reference, like in Corinth. Like, that was happening in ancient times,

right? That's probably what Paul was dealing with in the first century, the churches that he was dealing with. We're seeing a new, modernized, updated iOS update of that. And other people, they don't really have a worldview

of how to account for it and they could go so many different directions. So I think, One of the ways to really address is to try and at least acknowledge the tangible reality of something physical like Epstein Island, but also acknowledge the supernatural aesthetic behind it. We live in a weird time, too, because I don't think ancient people had a belief problem. I think it was more, do you believe in the serpent or do you believe in the God of Israel? And they had, you know, they believed that they're, like Luke was saying earlier, the serpent was the king and that he was going to give him the freedom. and that God was unjust and didn't give us this knowledge and put these restrictions on us.

And I think we're in a weird time where you have a big belief problem for the last couple hundred years. People just, they're apathetic. They don't care. Whatever. I'm just going to go on to do my thing. I'm just going to endlessly distract myself. But now, like you said, I think 2020 woke people up to this. There's something behind the scenes.

I don't know what it is. Someone's pulling. I mean, how in the hell did the whole world shut down? It's just, it's crazy. And everyone was like, you know, just they woke up. They just woke up like something's not right here. And I think from our perspective, the world is educating these people with ancient aliens and other crazy ideas. And we have a lot of them come on, you know, get a lot of emails from people like, I listen to your show and it makes sense now.

And I've come back to Christ too because, you know, I experienced this weird thing when I was a kid and nobody in no one in church would talk about it. and I think people are starting to understand that the weird stuff now gives me permission to believe the weird stuff back then. Moses is staff turning to a snake and other weird stories that you, as a modern person reading the Bible, even a believer could go, maybe they just sort of, that was sort of just, you know, allegory. That didn't actually happen. But what if it actually happened?

And so I think when you get permission to people, everything, all the weird stories, like Heiser says, if it's weird, it's important, happen. If you just believe that they happen, the way that they say they happen, and that's where I'm at, then it's not hard to believe the Bible. And I think in a modern lens, and I think stories like paranormal stories, just for whatever reason, can be a gift in your life. Because then you can go, oh, I can believe all this other paranormal stuff that I've always kind of rode off in my mind my whole life. Sorry, that was a lot, but no, you're good.

No, no, you're good. I have one thing to say, Andrew, I think it's your point to, uh, avoid the abortion thing and then to Mollock. And then you bring up Epstein, right? Look at the untouchables. Not one person has been prosecuted who was on the Ludo Express or went to the island. Yeah. And I think you have to start wondering.

And we talk about the abortion thing as well. Like, what are they really doing? I just don't think it really, I don't think it ever stopped and think it's got repackaged. I think that this is still part of the same. sacrifice. He uses cultish, right? The same practice. I just don't think it ever stopping out. It became a thing of convenes, but the end is still the same, whether it be trafficking of children. We have this whole, Nate and I talked for a while today just about the Jim Caviesel film, and that's a big talking point right now, right? It's a freedom with

Tim Ballard's story, right? It's the real story. This guy, Tim Ballard, I followed him on Instagram and everything, and he's really rescuing kids. And people want to dissociate that. That's not real. This is a Q&ON. This is a, you know, it's politicizing it, but this is happening. Yeah. This is for real the abuse and in some cases the sacrifice, whether it be abortion or even other really horrible things that I don't even like to give attention to talk about, but these things happened.

Yeah. I don't know they ever stopped. And I think it's shocking to people, but I think that these things continue. And Paul says that like, you know, our battle's not against flesh and blood, but against the principles, you know, against the powers of principalities, right? Your question is fascinating about the way the things, when Jesus came, how to change, I don't think necessarily these things went away. I think he defeated him.

He took the keys of son and death, right? He dealt him the death blow. But we're still in this time where they still operate. And I don't think they've ever changed their way. So you talk about the Aztecs. We talked about the minds, talking about human sacrifice. Still continuing. It just looks different, right?

And I don't know that the whole power thing is an interesting question, right? It's more underground. But are they still trying to get power from this, creates some sort of right and ritual from this, perhaps. But it continues. And that part is the, I mean, you can go to dark places. As Jeremiah said, you can go down some crazy rabbit holes of this. And I think ultimately all it does is it's just the most pertinent reminder that we need a savior.

And also reminder that Jesus is king, the king of kings. He's on the throne. He defeated all this. And this is the death. This is the death roll of the darkness. Yeah, it's gasp, kind of saying. Yeah, it really feels like that. That is, it is the, as they try to just sort of.

collateral damage everything on their way to judgment, right? I just, we've talked people on the show about trafficking and about some of the things that happen in there. Actually, that's one of the things I actually personally try to spend some of my finances and time on. I have, I have friends that run nonprofits that that fund safe houses for kids and women that rescue their trafficking. And I think it's fascinating if we stop into this moment of time to see the way that the way that mainstream is pushing back on this, the way that it's being discredited. There's more people enslaved now than ever been in the history of the world and yet we you know the vast majority of mainstream media it's a conspiracy theory wants to push it away yeah it's not it's not it shouldn't be surprising

to anyone that has that the grounds himself in in their faith because this is start to ask a question yeah no Andrew I'll let you jump into with the question you had in a second but just one one thing just in comment is that man it's I haven't yet seen the film like I listened I listened to the the Sean what's his name he was the interview of the Jim Kviesel on what is it Sean Ryan is a Sean Ryan show is the really popular podcast yeah it's it's a really yeah we've all seen the same clips yeah so I just saw some of the years talking about you know Jim Kavisel was talking about his experience and like filming it and you know it's definitely interesting interview

but man it's just one of the things that's really troubling about the media pushback regarding that is that honestly like Steve Hassan who really wrote the book combating cult mind control and a book called Freedom of Mind was just really talking about the bite cult model. Have you guys heard of that? No. No. So honestly, this is a whole other rabbit hole.

But, uh, so Steve Hassan, he's not a Christian, but he wrote a book called combating cult mind control. His, his story, very cliff notes is that he got into a, uh, he went to a weekend retreat. That was about like world and social justice, uh, that's, of that sorts. But turns out he ended up getting totally, uh, sleep to sleep deprived and got really indoctrinated and within two weeks. He completely isolated and cut off from all his friends and family and believed, and he got caught into the Moonies. Like, he was a devout true believer, believing that Sun Young Moon was the Messiah.

And he, and that was his world for like two years until he actually got into a car accident by way of sleep deprivation. And so, like, back in the 70s, you know, if we kind of go into the cult world versus the blurry world, which is kind of blurry in itself. But he ended up crashing this van and he broke his leg in a couple different ways where he actually had to, they had to use. the jaws of life to get him out of the van because it was that badly destroyed. But he ended up calling his sister saying, hey, because he had a moment of sobriety, because all of a sudden you're not sleep deprived, you're not doing 10 different things, and all of a sudden he had a moment to think of his family member. And he said, hey, I'm not, you know, just I'm here, just want to let you not think of you,

but just don't tell my parents. Well, his sister didn't listen to him and told his parents, and they ended up doing an intervention. And so, like, back on the 70, you had this whole movement called the deprogramming movement. which is all about trying to do interventions and forcing people to unthink and decompartmentalize, but it ended up having a lot of issues because within a route, in order to do these interventions, you actually had to kidnap people. So like Colts actually pushed back.

And there's a whole bunch of legal replications where that couldn't happen anymore. And so Steve Hassan took this approach. Well, anyways, I'm jumping ahead, but Steve ended up going through like five or six days of being deprogrammed. And like the within like day five or six, he ended up just like curling into a ball because he, what he talks about when it comes to cult mind control, cult indoctrination, how there's a cult identity that suppresses your true self. And usually you'll have a fluctuation between like the cult identity and like in the true person. So he had this cult identity that was suppressing his true self for two years. And so when you finally like found his sort of like true self in a sense, like he was curled up in a. ball and was like bawling his eyes out for like two hours because he didn't even know how to feel

emotions for like two years and so he has a whole on it yeah so i mean he has a whole like his book combating cult mind control he has a whole interview on the jo rogan experience which is fascinating so he's been a he's not a christian but you know he bears god's image so he really does a good example of talking about the effects of like thought reforming people and how cults affect people in a negative sense and it was very interesting because he was one of the most outspoken critics against QAnon, and he even has a book called The Cult of Trump, right? So regardless of where your audience stands politically, that he actually, one of his biggest criticisms of Q&ON is that it deters, like, some of the whole, the whole Q&N narrative,

it actually deters away from, like, real issues regarding sex trafficking and actually focusing on real organizations that can actually help those people, which is very interesting because the people in Rolling Stone, these other articles, they were utilized. like the real just the legitimacy of sex trafficking now now that's Q and on it's like really Yeah, there's a lot of sciops out there. Yeah, that's kind of something that Luke and I often talk about off the show is just that there are a lot of sciops There are a lot of things that are close to the truth and they're twisted a little bit and then people get obsessed about them and I think maybe the similarity between both of our shows is Is that you know, we're trying to get people more information so they don't get sucked into bad information, right? Right, and I think a lot of people deconstructing deconstruct or walk away from their faith because they don't understand things like the Old Testament.

They don't understand what's going on. And then they get to the modern age and they get indoctrinated by the world's views. And then they go, yeah, that Old Testament, you have guys like, you know, Andy Stanley saying that we should break up the New Testament and the Old Testament. Because they don't understand. They don't understand the Old Testament. And I think a lot of people, they can get afraid. Like, you know, a lot of people, they get freaked out the fact of, like, you know, ancient writers of the Bible read everything of the time. You know, we had this very small view.

Well, we can't read anything. We can't have information because information's bad. And if you watch ancient aliens, you're going to get sucked in and you're going to leave the faith. Well, your faith wasn't very strong to begin with if that's the case, right? And so on our show, we should get people better answers. Like, okay, this is why people get sucked into ancient aliens, because they actually see that the ancient world is very complex. And there's weird stuff going on. And even ancient aliens sometimes will use the Bible to explain how this stuff was, you know, how human beings.

were interacting with realms and getting knowledge from another realm right and building this stuff i mean they in some ways they even have a better understanding of the bible i think then modern-day christians were so in a box and then when something comes at them but they don't understand they lose their faith overnight they and then they deconstruct and then they're anti and you're like man if you just if you just weren't so i guess tight about being able to to see all of the things to read different things that that maybe you're you're you're you're you're you're just, you kind of knee jerk against. For sure.

I don't know if I'm making sense, but it's just, I think on our show, we're like, let's go back, let's, let's understand the ancient world, let's understand the ancient mindset and how it relates to the modern day paranormal stuff and how it never went away. Right. It just sort of went underground, but these things have been going on. Yeah, I got some new marketing. It's just got some new marketing. It's refreshed their brand, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Andrew, what were you going to ask? What were you going to ask earlier? No, yeah, it just reminds me. It's kind of like, I don't know if there's a correlation or not, but it seems like society and rebellion doesn't have the same protection from God against things that are preternatural or supernatural.

I would say a sign of heightened supernatural experience that are absence of God's peace in the life of a nation would be a sign in form of judgment. I find it really interesting that people who tend from deconstructing from the Bible because they may be struggling with the fact that there was a magician's in Pharaoh's court that also turned a staff into a snake. I remember having questions about that. I was like, Moses, that's fine. I get it.

Moses can turn a staff and do his name. God created the world in six days. Moses can do it. But when they did it, I was like, that's a little strange. But anyways, and you had magicians showing up to the birth of Christ,

remember? Yeah, the Magi. Yeah. What's that all about? Right, right. So like with the, glance over that. With the coming of deconstruction,

what I find interesting is that people go away from Christianity, which I think is the, again, the highest supernatural experience anyone can ever have. We're talking about a God who incarnated, didn't just show up and disappear and cause fear into people, but incarnated into man, fully God and fully man, and then lived a life not in secret, but publicly, right, and was crucified publicly and died on the cross for the people that hated him, right? Yeah. And that through belief in him, you can have salvation, like an amazing thing bringing spiritually dead people to life. And it says, in Christ is hidden all the treasures of hidden wisdom and knowledge, right?

In him, like having the ability, Paul says in Colossians when he's praying for the church, that they'll be filled with all spiritual wisdom and knowledge in Christ, which is amazing that we have that ability in Jesus and through his word. But people who deconstruct, maybe because of paranormal or supernatural experiences, they think that the Bible is contradictory to the world, but they go and they go off the whole other end, right,

into other types of paranormal and supernatural experiences, saying gender is fluid, right? that they deny the physical existence of their own body and they go to this weird, uh, psyche form of gender and mutilate themselves, right? Like it's a really weird situation at play. I, I think that what we're going through today in our society in terms of having more supernatural experiences than let's say a thousand years ago, I may,

you guys probably have way more knowledge on me undocumented history of supernatural experiences. But just hear, just hear me real quick. All right. I think it's a sign of God's judgment on, a nation like our nation literally covenanted with God upon its conception like its conception like the Mayflower Compact and things of that nature and literally we have rebelled against the same God that would protect us from the things that are out to confuse us and to harm us right like there is another realm that we should not get access into why because does it give you the truth no it doesn't

give you the truth it's there to lie to you it's there to confuse you and it's there to pull you away from your creator and I don't know it's just a weird part of the world that we're living living in today, like you talked about, I think, um, what, what is it? It's like a 150 billion dollar industry, the, the sex slave industry. And like, I remember we did an episode on it with the founders, Jerry. And we went into some of the numbers, uh, the finders episode, but it's the second highest grossing industry in the world that's never talked about. And I mean, we, we deserve judgment, man. We deserve wrath. Uh, we deserve to be confused. We deserve to have, uh, supernatural things come out of the woodwork and scare us and give us fear.

Why? Because it should run us into the arms of the one who incarnated and died for us. You didn't run away from us so that we can repent and turn back to Christ. Like that's at least my ultimate hope in it. I don't know where I'm going with that either. But that's what you guys are not giving a good point though. I think we've given over authority to the things. Right.

Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. And then listen, the supernatural realm, the spiritual realm, whatever you talk to, you know,

we've talked to Catholic priests and we've talked to a bunch of folks. But the reality is is that, the Bible makes it very clear that it's it's very legalistic and and you you can give permissions and and by giving over your worship but giving over authority to things and I think that's kind of what you're saying and I think it's true just in the same way that the the demons have to obey the name of Jesus and that even if you look at some of the odd scenes in the Old Testament like Satan has to get permission from God to sift Joe you know and everything is permissive is permission it's by permission and I think you make an interesting point

Like perhaps, and I don't see, I know the answer to this. And I think it feels like the veil is just in general. But perhaps we've given a permission and given authorities over. Because you're right. Like this was a place that was that was founded on the principles of Christianity. You know, they called a Judeo Christian nation, right? And it's very much we slaughter more children here than any. Think about the things that are happening here.

Yeah. In some ways, those, I'm not my opinion. In some ways, I think those things are permissions to, for things to that go bump. potentially to be Yeah, it's complicated. It's a covenantal exchange. It's a covenantal exchange. Yeah.

I mean, it's, yeah. Well, even in, this is interesting because I was listening to the, you know, even in the 10 plagues, you know, God provided life for the Israelites in Egypt during that judgment, right? So I think God always gives his people. We have to endure pain and we go through struggles and suffering, but God always provides an out for his people, I think. And it's difficult because we do live in a nation that is,

controlled, very much controlled by elites, and we're all waking up to this. You know, they're running these underground. They're all part of this underground crime ring, and there's a shadow government. And I think most people who listen to our show, you know, at this point, understand that that's happening. But Christians also have the power and authority of Christ to combat these things. And I think that we talk to people all the time who've been sort of supernaturally rescued in situations when they've been.

up against evil horrific evil yeah and you'd be surprised at some of the stuff that happens whether like it's abductions or it's some there's a lot of satanic ritual abuse stuff that comes through our channels because these entities are involved and blurry creatures are are there and if you want to know what's going on i think luke and i you know we try to expose the darkness that's sort of our like don't mess around with it but expose it you know so that people can understand what they're up against and why they do need a savior you know and so many ways it's it's just difficult i think it's really complicated and i think the the more show you know deeper it gets i think a lot of people just like easy answers and there aren't any

you have to know you have to wrestle through it i think um no just just to pick it back off of that is that you know you guys mentioned you know a guy who's been really influential as it was heiser is funny because i remember it was a couple years ago somebody messaged us and because when you were first starting off and somebody who said you know micha heiser like listen to you to you guys i think yeah i think heiser referred to us as like two formed guys who are open to the spiritual gifts. Yeah, I just got a big belly laugh out of that.

And I was like, oh, that's so cool that he likes us. And actually, he would like comment every now, every now and then. You know, now he's with the Lord and all that. But, you know, in the same way that you guys would look to him. Like, I think for us, like, the late Dr. Walter Martin is probably, like, one of the biggest influences on both of us. I think anybody who is interested in his ministry, he has two books that recommend Kingdom of the cults and Kingdom of the Occult.

Both the Kingdom of the Occult is compiled by his daughter, Jill Martin, and that's a compiling of his lectures on the occult. But it's fascinating because, like, in the 70s, if you look back, like, there's nobody else I even have any weariness of of anybody who was actually talking about the things that Dr. Walt Martin, Dr. Walter Marr was talking about. He was talking about ESP, like, extrasensitive perception. Like how to differentiate between like real exorcensory perception and occultic extrasensory perception? He would talk about like UFOs and aliens. Like I don't know of any Christian minister in the 70s who was actually giving an apologetics towards UFOology or talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormonism. Chuck Missler was. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a, yeah. Yeah. Jeremy, I decided, dude, we had, as a kid, I remember we had king of the cults at my house. Nice. In my house. It's funny that you say that you bring that up.

I hadn't thought about that in a while, but that book, I remember seeing this book in my, in my parents' library. Like, it was one that sticks with you because I was like, what is that about? You know, I remember my dad's saying, oh, when the Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door, we'll explain it to you. Right. Yeah. But then, like, you tell stories.

Like, we actually talk with our, we had an interview where we would talk with his producer. And, but he was also very weary in understanding of the reality of the supernatural and, like, the dangers of the occult. Like, he always walked around with the giant crucifix. He would always wear that especially because he'd always say like, hey, you can always deal with occult. Like, that's fine. But when you need to be very, very wary if you actually deal like menously towards the occult because you're opening yourself up to like all sorts of spiritual warfare. So he would do lectures and stuff would happen with his radio equipment and recording equipment. And in fact, the Craig Nelson, who's producer that we interviewed, he was actually present when Walter Martin was actually doing a deliverance on somebody who was actually, he exercised like.

a demon out of them. And so there's, I mean, he would deal with that sort of stuff. And like, he was sort of in the epicenter of that sort of ministry. And he was very open and would talk about it where a lot of people, they sort of are somewhat like wary of that. And I think like one of the challenges is that, you know, we're talking about the sort of covenantal change where we are like a post, we're a post-Christian society in any sense that America was. And we're really like a resurgence of neo-paganism is happening on an explosive level. So the type of supernatural experiences that were typically were reserved in Middle Eastern countries

or in places like in India, like that's being normalized here in the West. And I think if you don't have an apologetic to truly understand the supernatural, I think you're going to pendulum swings into all sorts of overreactions and misunderstandings of how to appropriately address it. You know, like one of my favorite lectures just real quickly

was of the late Dr. Walter Martin when he was there's a you could actually look it up we actually might repost on our platform at some point because walton martin just talking about exorcism and in it he actually reviews the exorcist when it came out like he went to a movie theater and he talks about like the good and the bow like what the movie got right and where it was theologically inaccurate most people would go into complete satanic panic mode was like oh ban that movie don't talk about it well he was like well the conversation's already here and you can't escape it so i'm going to go ahead and talk about how we actually tackle this theologically and also put the supremacy of Christ at the forefront of that sort of film, which we all know the dark ascetic that came with that film.

Well, that's, and I think that's how the Bible handles all these topics. It doesn't edit out difficult things because it's afraid. It doesn't not talk about the pagan nations and pagan practices because it's afraid you're going to get sucked into those. It teaches you like, this is actually what happened. This is what they were participating in. And this is, you know, you need all of the information so that you're not, it's like, it's like, the kid who never, you know, his parents withhold alcohol and everything from him. And then he goes off to college and he just gets smash face and dies in the frat house because he never even, was never exposed to anything. And I think a lot of Christians are like that today. What happens when the realms interact again? I mean, there's a lot of biblical evidence that says, you know, the realms were interacting, but in the golden age, the pre-flood societies, you had, you had other realms interacting with human beings. And we made a really good case on our show for that. And a lot of people say it's going to happen again. And what you're seeing is more and more

this stuff coming out of the woods. And so what happens when this stuff rules onto the scene? What happens when they say, oh, yeah, there are aliens, there are UFOs. A lot of Christians are going to lose their faith overnight because they never had. There's only a few rogue theologians like you were talking about, like Chuck Misslers of the world, who've been talking about this forever. But you've got Bigfoot encounters that go all way back at the turn of century. We brought on Dr. Diana Pesolka saying that there's a whole wing in the Vatican archives that talked about UFOs.

and there's all this stuff that she got access to. Like a thousand years of stuff that they've recorded. There's a whole, yeah, she got real limited access to the academic. And she's Catholic. And they let her in there to do her research. And she's like, there's a whole section on UFOs. And it goes back like a thousand years. And you're like, yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah. So this stuff, this stuff is around. It's here. It's just been conveniently swept under the rug. And like Tim Malbrino says on our show, if, you know, if you don't expand your perspective, it's going to break. And I think a lot of people are stretched rubber band. And you throw in Bigfoot, UFOs, aliens, and that it just breaks.

But you should be able to have some flexibility so that, you know, you can allow these other topics and the gospel to mix together. And there is an explanation for all the weird paranormal blurry creatures out there. And I think we try our best on our show to say that, you know, like Luke said, Christ is the king of kings. That's what I would add to that is, like, yeah, Ephesians 5, right? I look to do not participate in the fruitless deeds of the darkness, but instead expose it. It's important that we think about these things, at least have exposure to it. But I don't want to get lost in this that the most important thing is the gospel of Christ. Like this is the most important thing.

All these things, I think, provide it really, really fascinating and interesting context and it actually makes sense of a lot of things we see in the Old Testament. Like the reason people deconstruct, we talk about deconstructionism, right? Like, you get to pull this-sized version of Christianity and you go, how can we support a God that sanctions, genocide, the conquest of Joshua. Yeah. There are answers to that. Like if you look at, if you, if you look at Genesis 6'4 and you go, okay, you know, up until 400

years after Christ, the prevailing thought on, on this sense, the writing of Genesis was that there was an angelic and human interaction that created the Nephilim, right? You have this, this is what they believed until 400 years after Christ, which you had hybrid. Take that for what it is. I think that speaks for itself. Yeah. And you go, okay, so if these are giant tribes or hybrid tribes, everyone, then God's

judging them. Even if it's not that, and it's just these people are evil and God's judging them. I'm like, people now are putting themselves in the place of God saying, my Jesus doesn't sponsor genocide. My Jesus is X, Y, Z affirming. Yeah, they're reading the stories with little context. Well, even too, is that Andrew, I'll let you jump in here as well too. But even when you look at the whole deconstruction conversation, it's just so interesting

because honestly, I was having a conversation with my friend Melissa Dordy and we were reviewing, we were talking about the recent document. shiny, happy people, and we're just kind of giving our feedback on it, which is all about that Duggers, 19 kids and counting show. But, you know, it's always interesting to see talk to people who have gone through the whole deconstruction route, because I've been there. Like, I think of everything that I have sort of obstacle that I've hit in my route, I'm like, man, I feel like I've been given every single reason in the world, like why I should deconstruct. Like, almost every single story ever, like, I identify with them. Like, I met Derek Webb.

like on a tour when he's in caveman's call. Like I know like I went to Joshua Harris conferences where he was sort of leading the whole Ikeustating goodbye movement like I've it's funny like I was just watching some story on Instagram with this side. They're actually a really funny couple and they're like they've deconstructed and but they're still kind of funny because they kind of talk about stuff I identify with. And you know they're talking about for example they do these things called a slave auction which obviously it sounds kind of like friends like ooh that sounds kind of weird now

given all the social justice stuff but it would just be like hey I need to money for like a missions trip so let me just go ahead and do like hard labor to raise money for it right and people would like auction off like how much they'll pay you for like to work for them and they're talking about how cringe it was and i actually laughed i'm like man that is cringe but part of it honestly makes me sad because they look at christianity through the lens of sort of how some people have sort of this this cringe culture in some sense that we're all kind of a byproduct of and many of us have disentangled from it's like that's that's that's that's that's That's sort of not real Christianity.

When you actually look at the whole story of like of people of the ancient world and and what they were in power with, what they are under the power of and what Christ did on the cross. And now, looking at even now, how you give an answer for it and looking at how in 2020, how people are answering questions. And it's a, it's almost like a weird like a per old. It's like a PG version. It's like a given. We've been given a PG version of Christianity. So when you get to a certain age, you know, you're watching so much rated R content that you can't, you can't put those two together.

So you deconstruct your faith because no one ever gave you the rated R version. Yeah. No one ever told you. There's a lot of Christians who just have this PG version of reading the Old Testament. And so there's a story of like the witch and Endor. Right. Going to Saul and conjuring up a dead Samuel, right? And they go, that's, that, that whole thing was demonic.

You shouldn't, you shouldn't even think about this. But the weird part of the story is Samuel gives Saul a judgment and says you're going to die tomorrow. And he does. And why would a demon be giving prophecies to Saul? And people can't read these stories in a modern day context. They don't understand any of it. It's like they just gloss over all these things. So you get to a certain age and then, you know, the propaganda machine of all of our education system comes into your mind.

And you just, you walk away from your faith. It never, the gospel never really sunk deep into your heart because you never really understood it. You never really were given. This is the raw reality of human beings and what we were deceived out of them, what we gave up in the garden, and how sin affects us, and the wars of the Old Testament, and what we were fighting against, and the technological rebellion that's been going on since the dawn of time, and how we just, we want to give the finger to God every single way we can. And despite all that, Christ comes, becomes a human being. Why? So he could have authority on earth. You know, he becomes human, so he has all power on earth and in heaven.

Yeah. So there is a, there is more going on. He has to become human to have authority here because that's what we were given. We were given right to be here. And I think that I didn't understand a lot of these concepts until my 40s. Yeah. Like, I just sort of said the prayer and did the thing and sort of like, yeah, the Old Testament's weird. But now, you know, I think the Old Testament is some of my favorite stuff because it's so raw.

It's like, like you said, we're obsessed with Marvel movies. The Old Testament has got some wild, awesome stories. And it's sad to me that a lot of modern-day Christians just can't. They can't believe it. They can't understand it. And they're afraid of it. And so when they read the New Testament, it's like, love your enemies. They're like, wait a minute.

What about all this Old Testament stuff? They just read like these small little few gospels and then they're confused. Yeah. They don't understand. Like this is a whole story. This is like a linear story of humanity where we came from, where we're going, what's going on. And you can't just take a snapshot of one story and make any sense of it. So in a weird way, Bigfoot for us was like the opening to these paranormal things that happened today.

They've been going on forever. And it's your best, it's sort of the most documented, most scientific, weird thing out there to help your brain. getting to a place you're like oh everything's weird yeah it's always been this whole thing is weird what are we doing on this this rock floating through a universe like it's all weird why have i been so asleep to the paranormal and to the spiritual and to the miracle that human life is and i think in a weird way we've kind of scratched this itch that like the movies get it from the real world yeah the movies the movies are emulating like ancient history and guys like Tolkien were just pulling from, you know, he wasn't inventing these things. He was pulling from

ancient history, all these weird things that were going on in the ancient days, you know, and I think you start to understand it is a miracle. All of this is wild. All of this is bizarre. All of this is weird. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, why is it, why are we so afraid of the weird? I don't know. Yeah, we are. Yeah, just so one last thing in Andrew, I'll have you jump in here and give your thoughts here. That's so good, man. is I was going to say before is that like I've seen sort of like in the time we've had our podcast and we've explored a broad variety of topics including cults including you know aspects of the friends the new age the occult you know some a little bit of a tabbit of the blur versus this is our

first deep dive plunged into the blurrers but uh welcome but yeah like you know interesting you we talked on Saturday and both of us sort of have a background sort of like growing up in the church and purity culture and like I said what's been one of the biggest counterpoints for me with Like even I have at times where I've really wrestled through, okay, what do I really believe? Why do I believe this? Like is my faith, what's the difference between my faith now versus everyone I knew who grew up around me who like deconstructed? I remember like when John Cooper from Skillet talked to the Dove Awards a couple years ago, he was like very emotional how he talked about so many of his friends. He either walked away from their, uh, Jesus walked away from their wife, you know, a complete disavowed their faith.

And I'm like, well, what's tangible and real? And I think, honestly, for me, it's really in these last couple years of ministry here, like watching people both come out of the cults and now the new age, specifically the new age, where it's like they tried everything under the sun that everyone's trying now. Everything that the Russell Brands, the Aubrey Marcuses of the world have, like, tried, they've been there, done that. Yeah. You know, my friend Will Spencer, like, he had, like, he did like seven ayahuasca ceremonies, like back to back to back. and now, like, he's come to Christ and he's like, all that is like rubbish in comparison. But it's like, it's been bittersweet because I see a differentiation between people who come out of the new ways. And Jesus is everything to them.

Like, he has this pearl of great price versus somebody like a Derek Webb or the two guys, and whatever their names are, the two YouTubers who, or just there's other people who are very notable who've just, or Josh Herons is who've deconstructed. and it's like this bitter exchange like people who I knew and grew up with thrown it away that I've seen other people on the other side of the spectrum it's now everything to them

What do your thoughts? What are your thoughts, Andrews? We kind of, I think we're as we're I think we're wrapping up here But what are your thoughts? Yeah, yeah, I'm looking at the two blurry creatures guys And I'm thinking like they're like the X-Files Investigators, right?

Like looking at the spiritual sciops. We were talking about sciops earlier in like black flags and things like that. But we can, almost see this interdimensional weaving, right, as there's entities or things trying to create spiritual scips as well to keep us away from the power of the gospel or the gospel in general to distract us, to deceive us. And I think it's important to understand that as Christians, we actually have the ability, and we've talked about this before, Jerry, through Jesus Christ,

knowing who our God is, how amazing he is, how he is so much better than any of these things to not get caught up in them, but actually have an objective. standard in which we weigh and judge these things and explain them as Christians because the secular world at large, when they look into these things, they don't have an answer, but they look to get peace from these things. But we know that the only answer on how to get peace in your life comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Like it says in First Timothy four, it says talking about certain people, it says, in order to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promotes speculations rather than stewardship from God. That is by faith. It doesn't say,

say don't look into those things if you feel like you need to. It says don't devote yourself to those things and be wary of people who are swallowed up by those things. But I think as Christians, we are commanded like you guys were saying earlier that we need to expose these deeds of darkness without being overcome by them. And so it's encouraging for me to hear you guys and be two people that are in this blurry verse talking about things through a biblical worldview and showing that Christianity is the reason why we can actually give an account for these things. in the first place and wanting people to Christ. So I'm thankful for that.

Thanks. Yeah, and we're excited. And we see the movement. You know, you have like Graham Hancock's ancient apocalypse, like blowing up on the charts. You have people hungry for answers. And they're looking for guys like Graham and, you know, to tell them what's the true history? Everyone knows that we've been taught a bunch of lies. Yeah.

And it's becoming more and more on the forefront. And people are going to come to their own conclusions. And if Christians don't wake up and start giving people some real raw truths of how since day one, man, human beings have been in a spiritual war. And I think a big part of what we try to talk about in our show is it's also a genetic war. There's a lot more going on here. And you can look into it. And once you start to see that there is also a genetic war, you can't unsee it. And it's been going on.

But I really think that the UFO religions and some of this ancient alien stuff is really going to take off the next few years. So it's really important for Christians right now to address these things and look into them because we're seeing disclosure on a massive level. And that's some of the guys who've been in the giant space. They've been talking about giants forever are shifting more to the alien talk. Because that's going to be way more deceptive coming down the pike than anything else. So yeah, we actually have that's where our heart is. No, that's awesome. We actually have an upcoming sort of like mini series we're doing.

It's our first sort of like season one of a special we're doing called Alien, Revelation is the history of UFO disclosures. Quick Clifflin of stories. My friend Colin, he's like, he's a Presbyterian minister outside of Nevada. But he just called me. He's like, hey, you got to call me, got to talk to me. Like I'm a fan of Colchester you just started. And he was telling me about, hey, like, I grew up like, I basically, he grew up, he was in a,

He's into the new age. He was actually in the Masonic Lodge for a while, but the need became, came to Christ. And, but he had studied, like, UFOology just for years. He knows all the people who are into it. And he was telling me that the whole history of, like, what Tom DeLong had done with him, like, working alongside the government with two of the Stars Academy.

And he was saying, just long story short, there's a lot of things coming down the pipeline where a lot of people are going to understand things about UFOs that's going to become normalized conversation. And this is way before it was, it was, like, Nightly News and Tucker Carlson and things like that. And so he were just saying, like, we have to be able to give answers for that.

And so we're sort of, we've been sounding the drum and sort of the warning bell for, like, on our podcast multiple times saying, hey, this is coming and you're going to have to give some sort of answer, you know, for it. And there's no easy answer either. No. There is a lot of Christians just say, oh, it's demons. And I'm like, it's, it's not that easy. No.

Because that's all they know. They know there's angels, there's humans, and there's demons. And that's it, right? And what we try to say on our show is there's a whole host of blurry creatures. And once you plug in all the characters to the story, your faith starts to grow because like any movie, like any story, if you start at the end of the movie, you don't know what's going on. But when you get all the characters in the story and you watch it from the beginning

of the end, you're like, oh, I get it. I get what's going on, you know? It's like you ever walk into a half over movie? And a lot of Christians do that. We start at the Gospels. And we don't really understand why then, why, why a savior, when in time. You got to go back. You got to go to the Genesis and understand it.

But that's what we do on our show. And we appreciate you guys, like, wanting to do a crossover. Yeah, this is a tough of fun. I'm sure we can talk about this stuff forever. We have to have you back and we'll do one. Yeah, we'll do it. We'll do a volume too. This has been a lot, a lot of fun, guys.

Yeah. Yeah. It has. Sweet. Thanks so much, dudes. Yeah, so where can people find you guys at? So blurry creatures.com is kind of the hub for everything. You can find us on most social media platforms.

But yeah, we're on all the typical podcast apps, blurry creatures. And it's all over the place. Some episodes are just Bigfoot stuff. And sometimes we get really heavy into like satanic ritual abuse and things. So it's very, it's really hard to hop into our show sometimes. No, we take a lot of the heavy stuff as well, too. Okay, that's good. Yeah, if any of your eyes is looking to find us,

we're at the cultish show.com. That's where, our central hub, where you look up Coltish on any of the podcast platforms. We actually have our note. We finally have a YouTube channel, which is funny after being around for five years, like, we should probably start one of those. But if you go, we actually just create a domain.

It's like ColtishTV.com. We redirects to our YouTube channels. You can subscribe there. We're starting to build a little tribe there, but that's where we're at. So this is a lot of fun. So hoping your guys, your audience enjoys our conference, conversation. Yeah, yours too. Thanks for giving us a chance. Great to meet you, Jeremiah and

Andrew. Thanks so much for us together. Yeah, thank you guys. Absolutely. Cool. Awesome. Looking forward to volume too. This is a lot of fun.