Blurry Creatures - EP: 187 Into The Astral

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

New Age experiences can start young and do for many people. From the outside we see people dabbling in tarot cards, palm reading, Ouija boards etc. But many who leave Christianity altogether have had bizarre spiritual experiences, many of which are terrifying and yet become strangely alluring. Our guest this week recounts her experiences from astral projecting to visits from strange entities, fortune telling, and a list of encounters with things most of us are too skeptical to even consider. She always believed in Jesus and spiritual things, but didn’t quite know the depths of the spiritual arena ultimately she was playing in. A great story of redemption and how God seeks to reconcile us even into the fires of darkness we often mistakenly wander into. Intro song: Sunglasses Kid contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke soft, and people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients that their dog needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right? That's where Rough Green comes in.

It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA. And thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it. I'm giving it to our two dogs. You know, and I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said.

And so, you know, since they've been getting Rough Greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less. They're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Green's really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry.

That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials. So we're moving in.

We're in spring here. We're moving in the summer. Maybe you need to refresh that wardrobe so you're ready for the summer, t-shirts, shorts. These are everyday essentials made from premium materials. Here's a chance to refresh your wardrobe for the summer. At the price, it's 50 to 60% less than similar brands. And we always ask, how do they do this, Nate? And it's because they work directly with ethical factories, cut out middlemen.

So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's a real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floated shirts of light and air to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio. If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer,

refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. There was a real battle for my soul going on, you know, my entire childhood. Like I've always believed in God. Like I told you, I've never had the privilege of being an agnostic. I've always known that Jesus Christ is real and that, you know, he's real.

And yet, and yet, I also knew this other stuff was real. And from what I could tell, the Christian faith wasn't able to account for it. So the whole time I'm growing up, I have this sort of tinted. And one day I was about 16, I'm working in this boutique and it was a rainy dark day. And this bizarre person that I had never seen before came walking into the boutique. And he was dressed from head to toe, like he had walked into a hot topic and they said, what would you like? And he said, yes.

He was wearing like the red, the tartan, the tight tartan pants. He had the big black chunky boots. He was the freakiest guy, and I grew up in the Midwest. So they're like he, he would have been invisible in L.A., but where I was from, he stood out like a sore thumb. He was tall, he was blonde. He had long stringy blonde hair. He was incredibly pale, and he had pale, almost iridescent,

like, almost like translucent pale blue eyes. And he comes into this boutique. He immediately, like, locks, like, lock size with me and my first thought is oh great you know it's just you know he's a crete you know so i was standing at the register and it was one of those really like old-fashioned registers where you had to you know before we you know when you had to count back change and he's walking around this little boutique but i'm thinking there's no reason for this man to be in here you know there is nothing in here for him this was a little kits shop he walks around but he won't stop

looking at me. So I start like grabbing, like we had a price tag gun under the counter. And I'm thinking, okay, if he comes over here and he tries to do something, I'm going to have to get him with him. He'll have to tag him with this price tag gun. But he comes over and he's going to buy this. I don't remember what it was. It was maybe like a sticker or something. And he looks at me as I'm ringing him up and he says to my face, he says my full name, he says, I'm, I'm, I'm I have been wanting to meet you for quite some time. It is so good to finally meet. And he knew my name.

And the way he was looking at me, it was the most predatory, creepy grin. And I remember looking into his eyes. And there was something not quite right about his pupils. Couldn't tell you what it was. But like I said, his eyes were just so pale, blue. And there was something almost sickly about him. I don't know how to do that.

describe it. But as I, he handed me his money and as I was counting back this change, I had to give him some coins. He grabbed my hand so that we made contact. I wanted to just drop the change into his hand, but he made a point to grab my hand. And the moment he did, and a powerful electric surge went through my body from my feet up through my head. And I blacked out. I didn't fall, but I was frozen. I was sort of like, it was like I was being a, electrified. And I don't know how long that lasted, but when I came back to, I was standing in front of the register and then he was leaving. And I have never had a category in my brain for what the hell was that? The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it.

to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right it bust the paradigm it all goes back to the fallen chair and the problem with the modern day church they have a very truncated view of the supernatural this backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this mount herman event and this guy defects from the kingdom that's a big deal welcome back to blurry creatures sometimes we get the creature casserole and today We were getting that as our guests so famously put it at the end of the episode. You'll have to wait until the end to hear that line. But she said that and I think it's fascinating. I think it's 80s. If a casserole doesn't take you back to the 80s to riding your bike, to the neighbor's house or to the corner store and coming home for a casserole, right? Like whether you were on the West Coast kids like us or in the Midwest or wherever you might have grown up,

it wasn't nothing like a casserole. So you're going to get the blurry casserole today. But this is going to be a really fun episode. our guest is a member and a listener of the show, and she actually has an amazing testimony of her own life story, of just kind of going all the way into the darkness and then returning. And everything from entities, sleep paralysis to out-of-body experiences and interactions in the occult, being a part of the occult, to being rescued out of that. This is an amazing story and account in show.

And so we're grateful to have her. her on to tell her story and grateful she reached out you know and if you have stories and you'd like to share with us you can you can reach us at info at freetures.com shoot us an email let us let us know you you might we might put it in the old shepherd's pie we don't know yet but we might be old mince meat too who knows only my grandpa was the only one that ate mince me at thanksgiving but he loved it you know he loved it shepherd's pie was not bad it was it was a weird cassero but it was pretty Good. I liked it. You had the green beans, mashed potatoes. Just put it all in there. Mix it up. Make it. Bake it. Ground beef. At least that was the shepherd's pie we got, but today we got a

casserole for you of weird stuff. Some people have it. Some people just have all the ingredients for whatever reason. And their story is, it takes a long time. And many years to kind of put it all together, looking back at it. And I think that's the cool thing about the podcast, Luke, is that, you know, it kind of gives people sort of permission to believe their own story. Like Daniel Deval said on a lot of our episodes, that's the majority of his work is like, hey, you've had something crazy happen to you. And so many skeptics in this world that's in this podcast. And I think there's opposite people who are trying to say, get out of the skeptical, skeptical mindset, try to help some of these people who've gone through these things and need a place to talk about

it. So you're welcome on blurry creatures to talk about whatever happens to you. And like Luke and I oftentimes get a lot of critics in our channels. And I think one of the things I want to say is we wouldn't have a show if we brought people. people on that all believed and said the same thing. Correct. About all this weird stuff. There is no formula for the paranormal when it comes to our faith. And, you know, people will say, oh, vet, vet, vet, but I'm like, we wouldn't have a show.

We wouldn't have a place. We don't know. Not everyone who comes on our show will have to say this. So we agree with everything that comes out of their mouth. Yeah. Their theology, their thoughts. But they deserve a place where they can say what they've experienced without judgment. Yeah.

And I think there's, it's not a novel concept. but the idea of you know spitting out the bones you know when you're trying to answer questions that don't don't have an answer until we have you know someone pulls a big foot out of the woods the best we can do is is get the best answers right and with that example and with everything else yeah I think people's stories are so important there are uphologists that have spent the last 40 years compiling anecdotal stories about abductions right and and I think as a great friend of the show the late dr. Michael Heiser miss Mike dearly as Mike would say

it's weird, it's important, and if only just one of those is true. Spand your paradigm and it breaks the paradigm completely. And I think, you know, if you're going to be curious and you're going to ask questions about some of the hard things, the best we can do is try to get the best answers. That's why we're here, Nate. Try to get better answers. Yeah, Ms. Heiser, just thinking about it a little bit. But, you know, a lot of us are here because of him.

I think that Luke and I have been a unique place the last couple of years to hear your stories. and give it a platform to just put them out there in the world and people listen. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast, sharing it with friends, sending us a message, sending us your stories, trusting us with your stories. And you want to become a member of the show of Larry Creatures.com slash members. We are currently ad-free podcast. And I think Luke and I are humbled that people coming out of these just crazy situations in the occult, listen to our show and put together some pieces to help them. Come back to their faith. come back to the story, come back to the King of Kings who rules over all of this and

understand for the first time what kind of war they're in. And I think Luke and I had no idea when we started this show that we would be putting some of these pieces together. But that's sort of a byproduct. So you can become a member. We get access to extra content and just help us do this. Blurrycreatures.com slash members. And like Luke said, again, info at blurrycreatures.com if you want to send us a message. Let's get Joe on this show. All right, everyone out there. Welcome back to Blurry Creatures, and a long journey for Luke and I. We started this podcast in mid-2020, and I think we've learned a lot together on this show. And one of the cool things about this podcast is people are coming along this journey with us.

People who've been through a lot of blurry experiences of their own. We've had a lot of members come on our show and tell their stories, their testimonies, things they've been through. Today's one of those stories. A listener, Joe, she grew up around a lot of the blurry stuff, and had a lot of experiences, sent us an email that was unique. And I think a powerful testimony of what the show's meant to her and some of the things she's been through. So, Joe, welcome to Blurry Creatures. Thanks for coming on our podcast.

Thank you. And yeah, and thanks for your email, too, because a lot of times Luke and I do this, and we sort of send it out and put it out in the cloud. And it often just feels like it's just him and I having a conversation with some of our friends. And we don't really know who's listening. and what it means to them, unless some people tell us and give us some messages. So it's great to read yours. It's really encouraging because some of the stuff we talk about is very dark and no one

wants to talk about it. And sometimes we don't even know what to say. And I think, but we want to get people a platform to tell their story. And that's what we want to do today. So thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, we're great to have you. And it's kind of talked to on pre-roll, Nate. Like, I love this part of what we do because a lot of our show is we talk to people

that, you know, the doctors, the theologians have 10,000 hours. But the other part of our show is talking to people that have actually lived the experiences. And so this is a really, really excited to have you on Joe. And we know, without a doubt now, 180 plus episodes in here, Nate, that like when we have people come on and share, there are people listening this, this will resonate with and this will impact. And it will be, one of the cool things about this, Joe, is that while a lot of people think that their experiences, and a lot of times they haven't talked about, are, you know, makes you feel alone. The cool thing is that we inevitably have people reach out that have similar experiences and this speaks to them.

It ministers to them. It gives them permission to talk about this and to process some of these things. Because a lot of people will just tuck these things away. And so we're grateful to have you on today. And because you are a member and a listener to the show, it wouldn't be right if we didn't start this out by asking you, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot, Joe? Well, first of all, thank you for having me on and listening. I emailed you guys because I think it was during the Laura Singer episode.

You guys were discussing the magic circles. And then you guys took a little bit of a detour and you were talking about, you know, yeah, it's part of what makes it great. Just talking about like knowing if you're in the right place, if you're actually doing the work you're meant to be doing. And I just felt like, like, gosh, I've got to email these guys because they need to know that if it weren't for their podcast, I would not, I wouldn't be going to church and I wouldn't have repented and turned back to Christ. And so, you know, I just felt like it was my job to let you know that I am one person. And I didn't even find your podcast until like, I was like, gosh, like October, December, ish of last year. So I'm very brand new. But as far as, yes, thank you.

As far as my thoughts on Bigfoot, I really haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about him. It's very sad. I've been kind of preoccupied with other stuff. That's fine. That's fine. But listening to your podcast actually jostled up an early childhood memory for me. I grew up in the Midwest. We had a huge family estate, just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of acres. There was forests. There was meadow. We had a little canyon. We had creeks.

Anyway, so all of us grandkids, we were cousins. We'd all run out there, like the lost kids and just live in the woods. And I remembered in the middle of listening to one of your episodes that one day, we were coming home from the woods and we found a huge footprint in the mud. And we were so excited. It was like, you know, granted it could have been just a man running barefoot, but he would have had to have had like size 16, 18 feet. Like a big old convict like Sheldon from, you know, Selden. Yeah.

It was a huge footprint. And I remember distinctly, you were all so amazed by it. We ran back to the house and we tried to get the grownups to come out and look at it. And of course, it was a bit of a hike to go back out there. And so we could only convince my dad to come and look at it. And when he got there, he accused us of hoaxing it. He didn't, he didn't deny.

So it was real good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So really deep, big humanoid footprint. And to this day, he still maintains, you know, you guys must have hoaxed that. It was so realistic. There's no way.

and anyway so I don't know anything about big foot but I do know that one time when I was a kid me and my cousins we all found a really really big footprint in the mud you found a you found a big foot a literal big foot that's that's the sign of one I think that's a familiar theme yeah people have these flashbacks as adults to things that happen in their childhood that they sort of wrote off or they didn't think about for years and something about the show just started John some of those things loose. I just want to say thank you for what you said earlier, just a few minutes ago too.

It's incredible to hear these stories. I don't know what specifically about the blurry creatures space allows people to rethink some of these things for the first time, but it is and it does, and it's powerful, and it's cool to hear because I think one of the things is like, we just put it out there. In some ways we give you sort of the NC-17 version of everything. and you have to take it or leave it, right?

There was this very, you know, profound thing that happened in Genesis that messed up the world for a long time. And it can help explain a lot of things that Christians just, for whatever reason, don't want to put into their paradigm. But when they do, they can kind of come back and make sense of a lot of these stories that, for whatever reason, the way that we've read them growing up and sort of more of like a PG version confused us. We were really confused. Like, I don't understand the story. Why did God do this and this? Why the flood? You know, why the Tower of Babel?

Why Sodom and Gomorrah? Why all these crazy events? Why command these Israelites go out and do who knows what to who knows who? And you walk away and you look for answers in places like the occult. You go to, some people go to, you know, the psychics and their friends. And they start getting mixed up in other things to get answers. When I think the biblical paradigm can give you all. the answers you need, you just can't baby it. You cannot treat it like it's a kid's book. You have to

read it like it's written. It gives you everything you need, you know? Absolutely. Yeah, I... Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill, and that's where MittMobil comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do.

MintMobil offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number, get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up blurry every day, giving us the scoop on what's going on the academic world and the ancient world on Mint Mobile. Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas.

And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Metmobles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

See MintMobile for details. I grew up in the church. I was one of those young people who not only grew up in the church but was active. I wanted to not necessarily be the best Christian that I could be, but I wanted to know my book. I mean, I was reading the Bible cover to cover. And even so, I didn't understand the Nephilim. I didn't understand Genesis 6. And it was, you know, not because I wasn't looking at the words as they are written on the page,

but it was because there was nobody that was explaining it. And so, yeah, the Bible was open before me constantly growing up, and yet there was so much that was, you know, just not understandable, it seemed, or at least perhaps no longer applied to us today, you know, a problem for then, not for now. Yes, yeah. That's common, right? It's an easy way to dismiss a lot of things that make people uncomfortable is to be like, Well, that things are different.

And or, you know, we're just going to gloss over that. Yeah. We're not going to talk. We're not going to talk about the genocidal activities. We're not going to talk about all of that. That was for a different time. And, you know, there was a lot that to me, you know, looking at it from my human perspective, that not only was inscrutable, but it seemed insane.

I think a lot of people realize, too, that they sort of read that like a time for then. But, you know, you got blurry creatures in your backyard. You have these things showing up, and there's a lot of people that experience the things that were then now. And what do they do? What answers do they have? And you're right. I think the church does people a disservice by not talking about these things because there's a good quarter of the population that deals with this stuff on a daily basis. Yeah.

In some way, shape, or form. And they don't know what to do. They don't want, they're looking for answers in non-biblical places because the church is just refusing to talk about these things. Exactly. Yeah. And Joe, your story, your story starts young. I kind of want you to, you've laid a good foundation talking about growing up in the church. But I'd love to start with the things that began to happen to you as a kid.

And eventually why you walked away, and this is a wonderful redemptive story, not to ruin, not to spoil for anyone. But I think it's so important to start where you start in the beginning and kind of walk us through your story and how you ended up where you did. Okay. I'm not exactly sure when it starts, but I, it must have started in infancy. I have a notoriously awful memory, call it my amnesia brain. So if you hear me rustling papers over here, these are my notes. So we just have to have something in front of me so that I don't forget anything major. In fact, one of the hallmarks of sleep paralysis and astral experiences for me personally is I'll be almost amnesiac about it.

it after. I may remember it right after, but if I do not write it down, it will be gone. And I will not consciously recall it even like a few days later. So even preparing for this interview, I was sort of scrambling because I was thinking, I know I've had so many of these sorts of things happen. I just, I know because I have, you know, the sort of the cloud, but I had to actually go digging through old journals and diaries to find specific examples. So, yeah, as far as I can tell, it started when I was very, very young. And this is something that I have told many people. I've never had the privilege of being an agnostic.

And I say that somewhat tongue in cheek. But for the lion's share, my young adult life, I actually envy people who could look at the world through a materialist, reductionist, evolutionary lens and say, well, this is all there is, or even worse, they could look at the world and say, there is no evil. You know, evil is nothing more than a low vibration. And so if you spread love to the low vibration, you can bring that vibration up. And so there is no evil. There is just sadness or whatever. No, there's evil.

I'm sorry, there is evil. I guess like this the earliest anecdote I have is a memory that I don't even have myself. It's what my mother relayed to me. I was at church and a bunch of kids. We were running around the gymnasium playing tag. I was maybe six-ish. And all I remember is I was running full tilt across the gymnasium, running away from the kid who is it. And the next thing I know, I wake up and I'm on the ground and there's a woman kneeling over me.

my mom didn't see what happened. She was told by the woman that she had seen a demon pop out of nowhere, grab me and throw me into the wall. And so she, I apparently lost consciousness. I hit the wall. And this woman, I woke up to her kneeling over me and she was praying over me or exercising me. I don't know, which I wish that she was still alive so I could ask her. But my mom sort of was freaked out by that. And she was like, I don't know if I want you exercising my kid in the gymnasium on a Tuesday morning. You know? And so, but that woman was very clear and very adamant that that's what she saw.

And she was not a crazy person. She was an upstanding member of our church and our, you know, local community. And then after that, you know, I remember off and on some memories of just being hyper aware of there being unseen entities around me. and sometimes they were scary, sometimes they weren't, and there was this particularly tall, hooded being who did have red eyes, who would show up once in a while. And I have always been a writer, I am a writer. And so what I would do, starting from a very young age,

is I would put these characters into my stories, and especially the scary ones. I would give them names, I would give them backstories, and I would try to make them more sympathetic, so that I wouldn't feel so scared of that. Joe, when you say unseen, you mean unseen to everyone else, but you see, or, yes, I can either see them or I am aware that they are in the room.

The room changes, but there was, you know, I do remember this one. And I won't go into a lot of detail about, like, the backstory that I created for. I actually started working him into one of my stories at the time. And I look back on that now many years later. and I'm like, you know, if I had actually tried to get that published, that would have been like a really good sort of like, oh gosh, like he was, you know, very nephalimic. You know, it was that kind of thing. He was freaky. But yeah, so I've always been hyper aware of these entities, these energies being around me.

And I never really got any answers from our church. and, you know, answering the question of who they were or what they could be. I was just told, you know, that stuff. We, I don't, I wouldn't necessarily say that the church we attended was cessationist. I think that's the word. You know, the belief that miracles are no more, there is no more speaking in tongues. But that was kind of the unspoken belief. And so to believe that there could still be angels and demons actively with us now in this

realm affecting us that was sort of woo and so there was i was never told to be quiet but i was there was like an overwhelming sense of just don't talk about it like that's that's not real all of that was maybe i suppose ended in the apostolic gager before so which i feel like that's become almost a type of thought process is spread over the population i think most people yeah you know in general the science community most church communities there's very few people that actually are the exact exact opposite of that, which is why I think a lot of people are tuning into shows like ours, because times are changing. Absolutely.

Yeah. I mean, people who are, you know, upstanding functioning members of society have these experiences and they can't all be crazy. So, yeah, I have a lot of stories, but I don't know how many of them weave into the overarching narrative. I do remember they came to me one night. So my uncle had horses. We always had horses.

And my uncle had two mares. He was going to have bread to a stallion. And then he came to me and he said, I'm going to let you have whichever of the foals you want. It'll be your horse forever. And I was thrilled. You know, I was, you know, 12 or 13. And I remember going to sleep one night and these entities came to me and they said,

tell us what you want your horse to look like. And I know how it sounds. It sounds insane. It sounds like, you know, it sounds. insane, but I got to custom design my own pony. And when the foals were born of the two foals, that horse was standing there. And it was sort of, it was one of those things where, again, I was sort of not consciously thinking about it in the moment, but then later, you know, I wrote my diary religiously growing up. So if it weren't for my diaries, I wouldn't have a

record of any of this. And, you know, I had these. entities would come to me in my dreams. They would show me events from the future. They would show me things from my future, events in my family's future, in general. And I just sort of tucked it away, but at the same time, in the back of my mind, I was always wondering, what are they doing, and why are they showing me this stuff? And they can't be evil. You know, an evil entity wouldn't come to you and ask you what you ask you what do you want your pony to look like you know that's a that's a that's a gift right and it's the kind of gift that might get you thrown into the bottom of a well if you tell it too many times but so i didn't but joe but there's like with this

story that you talk about very specific things with the horse that you asked for yes and that happened right yeah yeah um everything down yeah yeah yeah He was, even his personality, like this horse, this is, he was, I never had to break him. He was, it's like he was born broke. He was a dog, like in his personality, he had the personality about Labrador. And he was also kind of weird because he was the only horse I ever knew who would stand outside and watch planes flying in the night sky or track. Like, he would stand outside and just watch stars for, you know, things in the sky, satellites.

He was a weird horse and he was great. Wow. I want to say this reminds me, like, so. So Trent, we interviewed Trent, who, who said the same thing. He said these gray aliens would show up and they would kind of give them visions of the future. And at first I hadn't really heard that before. But it's difficult, right? It's like, where do you place this?

And you can't, immediately, we've seen in our channels this all this last two weeks, that everything that you hear is all a Psiop deception. And it's a very limited, narrow view of everything. It's kind of a knee-jerk fear reaction of like, this doesn't, I've never talked. I never thought about this or heard about this. So it has to be bad. It has to come from a place of a reactionary response to what's happening. But I think Luke and I have heard so many random things out of the box the last couple of years that we can kind of, I don't know what to make of that.

But I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm just listening. And it seems like it's in line with what other people have said. So just to give you some context there. Yeah. I definitely looking back, I see how it eroded my faith because it was like I have. added a secret second family that they weren't coming from the Christian perspective. They were giving me nice little things on the side and showing me things.

I have to preface all of this by saying I did not know anything about aliens, except, you know, perhaps what I saw in pop culture. So I had no area in my brain for grays, for, you know, the hat man, any of this stuff. Most of this stuff's taking place before the internet was ever even really a thing. So do you look at it kind of like now like kind of like the white witch Narnia gives the Turkish delight like a little present? I really I really do. I think it was curing favor. I think it was, you know, I hate to use the word grooming, but it was a lot of like it was sowing the seeds of causing me to realize, you know, wrongly, but to realize that there was another way that made more sense and that accounted for the supernatural that was occurring in my life. I've always wondered this. I've wondered if there are certain people who have given. and these entities show up at a young age and try, you know, call it clairvoyant, call whatever you want.

They have a gift and they show up and try to deceive them and recruit them kind of thing. Come over to our side because they're looking at specific bloodlines. They're interested in certain types of people and you wonder if they know you have these spiritual gifts. So we're going to hijack them at a young age. We're going to get you over to our side. Because it sounds like some people, you know, they can walk into the field of dreams and others can't and it doesn't make any sense. And so a lot of people who can't, they get really upset or they limit, they change this. They say it's impossible.

These people are all deceived. And I just don't think that's a good. I don't think that answer includes all the data. But keep going. No, no, you're good. You're making a really good point. Yeah. In fact, I am kind of cringing having told you about the horse because it's so crazy.

No, it's not. I had another experience that I'm going to go ahead and tell you. I'm going to leave it to you to decide if this is relevant, but this happened when I was about 16. I was working in a boutique, and there was a real battle for my soul going on, you know, my entire childhood. Like, I've always believed in God. Like I told you, I've never had the privilege of being an agnostic. I've always known that Jesus Christ is real and that, you know, he's real. And yet, and yet, I also knew this other stuff was real. And from what I could tell, The Christian faith wasn't able to account for it.

So the whole time I'm growing up, I have this sort of tension. And one day I was about 16, I'm working in this boutique. And it was a rainy, dark day. And this bizarre person that I had never seen before came walking into the boutique. And he was dressed from head to toe. Like he had walked into a hot topic, and they said, what would you like? and he said yes. He had.

That's a great. That's a great description. He was wearing like the red, the tartan, the tight tartan pants. He had the big black chunky boots. He was the freakiest guy. And I grew up in the Midwest. So they're like he, he would have been invisible in L.A.

But where I was from, he stood out like a sore thumb. And he came into the toy store. I'd never seen him before and I've never seen him since. He was tall. He was blonde. He had long, stringy, blonde hair. He was incredibly pale. And he had pale, almost iridescent, like, almost like translucent pale blue eyes.

And he comes into this boutique. He immediately, like, lock size with me. And my first thought is, oh, great, you know, it's just, you know, he's a crepe, you know? So I was standing at the register. And it was one of those really, like, old-fashioned registers where you had to, you know, before we, you know, when you had to count back change. And he's walking around this little boutique, but I'm thinking, there's no reason for this man to be in here.

You know, there is nothing in here for him. This was a little kits shop for, you know, 40-year-old women and above. So he's, and, you know, some kid stuff in there as well, obviously. But he walks around, but he won't stop looking at me. So I start, like, grabbing, like, we had a price tag gun under the counter. And I'm thinking, okay, if he comes. over here and he tries to do something. I'm going to have to get him with you. I'm going to have to tag him with his price tagging. But he comes over and he's going to buy this. I don't

remember what it was. It was maybe like a sticker or something. And he looks at me as I'm ringing him up and he says to my face, Joe, you know, except he says my full name. He says, I have been wanting to meet you for quite some time. It is so good. to finally meet. And he knew my name. And the way he was looking at me, it was the most predatory, creepy grin. And I remember looking into his eyes.

And there was something not quite right about his pupils. Couldn't tell you what it was. But like I said, his eyes were just so pale, blue. And there was something almost sickly about him. I don't know how to describe it. But as I, he handed me his money. And as I was counting back, his change. I had to give him some coins. He grabbed my hand so that we made contact. I wanted to

just drop the change into his hand, but he made a point to grab my hand. And the moment he did, and a powerful electric surge went through my body from my feet up through my head. And I blacked out. I didn't fall, but I was frozen. I was sort of like, it was like I was being electrified. and I don't know how long that lasted, but when I came back to, I was standing in front of the register, and then he was leaving. And I have never had a category in my brain

for what the hell was that. I never did see him again. And then it wasn't until after I started listening to your podcast, and then you guys started, I started doing some of my own reading. I thought later, much later, decades later, I thought, is it possible that that was a Nordic? I don't know. I don't know what he was doing

or if he was just, you know, a Satanist or if he was just a creep. I can tell you that the electrical surge that he sent through my body wasn't one of those little prank buzzers because we did carry those in the store. And I have brothers. I have plenty of brothers.

So I know what it's like to get pranked with a buzzer, an electrical current. This was something that caused my whole body to just sort of I was paralyzed and I lost my vision. I lost my hearing. So I have no answers as to what happened there. Well, that kind of goes in line with what I just said a little bit ago.

It's like they kind of falls in line with they knew at a young age, whoever it is. Yeah. I'm not saying this is the case, but it seems as though this guy shows up on the scene. He looks like he's not from here. And he says, I've been waiting to meet you. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's like they get a list, you know, and they know who to mess with. Yeah. And I was so shaken by that event. I remember that after I gathered myself, I immediately

closed the boutique down. I called my boss and I told her, listen, I cannot stay here. I have to go home. And she understood she didn't ask too many questions. I think she could hear in my voice that it was something big. But I did close the store down because it rattled me. And it's, stuck with me and I and I dreaded going into work for weeks after that because I thought, you know, if he comes back, what am I going to do? And of course, I did share the story with some people and they were all just like, oh, that's crazy. Anyway, what do you want for dinner? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because I got I got food poisoning yesterday and sat on the couch and just watched movies all day and I watched men in black and I hadn't watched it in like,

I don't know, 15 years or so. And part of me was thinking like, I wonder if the world is more like this and we even realize, like, we're all kind of walking around just, I don't know if you've seen the movie, but they walk among us. They're among us. We hear this on her show all the time. They're interbreeding with society. They're here already. We've heard early on in the show that people say that. And you have this experience at a young age and you know this. And it's got to be very hard for you not to go, okay, how does the biblical paradigm explain this? Because you feel like the biblical paradigm is, it's just not where you are when you're experiencing all this. It's like way behind. You needed to catch up to you. And there's not a lot of people explaining it in a way

that can help it catch up to you. Yeah, especially. Yeah, especially in the late 90s and the early 2000s, you know, we didn't have the internet to the extent we have now where you could find people that had similar experiences. And yeah, and just, I guess. Or even podcasts. Podcasts really helped me grow my faith, you know, like listening to guys like David Politis, who basically laid it out in very scientific terms that people are like walking from our world to somewhere else. And, you know, it takes a long time for your brain to wrap your mind around the data. It's not an animal. It's not a bear. It's not Sasquatch. It's, they're here and then they're gone. What do you do with that as a Christian if you don't have? It takes years for your mind.

Okay, okay, something's taken people. But yeah, that's a really hard time. Late 90s. You know, all we had was Bob Lazar's story, really. Well, I'll say what I think interesting too is that you have these entities show up as a kid, you have this hooded entity. And Nate, what made me think of kind of right away was what Tony and Tony Merkel from the confessionals talked about, where this hooded entity would come and try to recruit kids and come work for me, right? And he's got some really fascinating, wild stories about something like that happening. And you have these entities show up and they're showing you the future. Yeah. And these future events then happen.

Yes. And that was actually one of those specifically. is the reason I ended up making the decision to walk away from my faith and to sort of throw myself headlong into what I thought at the time were better answers. And it's hard for me to delineate, you know, when I'm between, you know, when it's lucid, dreaming, sleep paralysis, and then being thrown into the astral. I do have a rough framework. I think that Vicki Joy Anderson has a pretty good explanation. You know, she talks about how when you're in the astralisional,

you have your own inner monologue and you it's you you know you're thinking like well this is you know it's you and and i'm a naturally snarky person you know especially around these entities because i know how malicious they can be and how deceptive they are so when i'm in that environment with them i don't i don't give them the time a day and the ones that are malicious they can't stand that and they show their true colors pretty quickly. So are you test, do you, I mean, this is like testing the spirits, right? We're told to test the spirits. Are you doing this at a young age?

Is this what you think that means? Yeah, I have to clarify, this is in the context of me describing me then. So I don't, I don't play around with this stuff. But, you know, I feel like I didn't really have an area in my brain even at that time to understand what was going on or even to know enough to test the spirits. because at that point they were still very benevolent. There was one scary incident that happened, but it wasn't even scary because they were, it was,

let me just tell you the story, I guess. So one time I recall waking up in the astral, and by that, I simply mean I was, it felt like I was floating in deep space. And I was in total, you know, I wasn't in control, but I was in control of me. And suddenly there was this brilliant, light and it was shining down on me like a spotlight. And I'm going to be very fumbling and

words, words are not going to be able to properly describe this, this light that was shining on me. It could see through me. It could see, it was like it was seeing every single part of me, even the parts of me that I thought that no one could ever see, both past, present and future. And off standing beside it was this sort of brilliant person. And I recall the brilliant spotlight shining down on me. And it was even the parts of me that I consciously would say, well, this is a good quality that I have. You know, I'm selfless. It could see into my selflessness. And it was showing me that even in my selflessness, there was a sin nature. There was a selfishness within that. It could see into all. of my best and most noble deeds and actions again past, present, future. And it was like, even within each of my purest motives, there was that grain of pride or, you know, some sort of sin that had found its way in. And it was basically like, I was completely undone, like down to my DNA. There was no part of me that was going to be able to be able to,

withstand this scrutiny. And I remember being so ashamed and just so overwhelmed with just, you know, intense emotion. And the voice, this voice came from the light and it said, obey me. And I responded very weakly. I'm trying. And I felt the sort of person that was standing to the side looking on me and he could also see every part of me. He was seeing the same thing that the light could see, but he was, he understood, I wouldn't say that he understood. It wasn't a particularly, you know, it wasn't overwhelmed with the sensation of love or anything like that. But I got the distinct impression that they were showing me that even in my obedience, I needed to obey. And it took me a long time to unpack that. It took me decades. In fact, I,

you know, I'm still unpacking it. Because on the one hand, I feel like that was a very like divine warning to obey. But on the other hand, I used to be very angry because if that was God, then I just, I would, I remember thinking like, what kind of thing is that to say to a 17 year old, right? But the point of the experience and the effect that it had, I think, is the point. And the effect that it did have was it showed me that even in my obedience, there were grains of disobedience. And it was almost like a loving warning that I needed to check myself before I wrecked myself because what followed was I had an experience where an entity came to me and they asked me,

what do you want to see? And I said, show me the person that I'm going to fall in love with. And so they immediately, I was transported with this entity and we were standing in an apartment. I saw a young man. I saw him clear as day. We were sort of floating in the room behind him. And he was engaged in a very, like, highly specific activity with a very highly specific tool. where it's, you know, you may meet one person in your lifetime who is proficient at this thing. And so it was such an exact, let me rephrase this. It was such a clear picture. It was like I was standing in the room directly behind him. I saw him. I saw his apartment. I saw the things in his apartment. And I also knew as soon as I saw him that he was ill. And I remember asking the entity

standing next to me, what's wrong with him? You know, what, what, what is he sick with? And the entity's only response was he doesn't know. So fast forward years later, I meet this person. And, you know, I didn't know right away that this was the person that I had seen years before. But it became apparent after, you know, a few months because I saw exactly what I had seen in the apartment. and he looked exactly like that person. And so it was that vision specifically that gave me the, I don't know what the word is here, not inspiration, but it gave me the courage to walk away from my faith,

walk away from my family, walk away from everything. Because in my mind and in my heart, I was following my destiny because the entity told me, this is your person. And so when I had to make, a choice between my faith and my family and this person who I was shown years before, I chose to take that road to follow my quote unquote destiny. And so that I was about, oh gosh, maybe 25 when that happened. And that's kind of when it all started. Did you end up with this person?

Um, we were together for about six years. However, one thing that's important, and this will become apparent as I speak, things that often come to you in terms of destiny or fate, at least from in my experience, the poison is in the cup, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted to ask. You have these sort of experiences. I imagine it can be intoxicating because you have this, this knowledge, right? It's given. And yeah, like you said, the poison's in the cup, right? So this, it's, to me, it's like hearing people using Ouija boards and asking who am I going to marry, right? And they end up marrying this person and it's destructive, right? It's that kind of, it's just interesting to see you sitting on the other side to see what,

to what happened. But I don't want to derail the story because I know that this pushes, this is the impetus, right? This pushes you completely out the door of the church and into a new paradigm, a new space, right? New age, actually. Exactly. Exactly. And I guess I do need to back up because one thing that I think is interesting, you know, you guys talk a lot about, you know, why people have these experiences and especially with sleep paralysis. You know, Vicki Joy in the episode that you had with her, the interview that you had with her, she talked about, you know, bloodlines and, you know, there are agreements that are made in that realm, which give these things access. Yes. One thing that I think is of interest is, I don't know if you guys are familiar with NDEs or OBEs. That's near-death experiences or out-of-body experiences. So there is some research out there. And I don't recommend this researcher's worldview or many of her conclusions, but it's PMA Hot Water. She's done a lot of research with NDEs. And she's found that people who experience near-death experiences or even out-of-body experiences to a

extent. Those can be people who have those experiences will often have a sudden onset of psychic experiences after they recover. Supernatural activity will kick up. They'll start to have an effect on electricity or electric objects around them. And this is based on 40 years of her research. And I've had, I mean, I had an NDE when I was two months old. So I could have started then, But I had a surgery in 2010, and after the surgery, I flatlined, and I had an out-of-body experience wherein I was out of my body while they were trying to bring me back. And immediately following this out-of-body post-op experience, I started to be visited by sleep paralysis demons.

That was the onset of my sleep paralysis. And so I would be curious to know if more people have had experience. like that where it's not so much that they participated in a psychic or a Ouija board event, but maybe it was more so that their body and their body and their soul were separated or there was sort of a separation that happened within them. It could even be medically induced. But that, yeah, that was about started about seven years of sleep paralysis attacks. And so, yeah, it was just constant. Joe, can you talk about what that was like?

you're out of your body, it's out of body experience. Are you in, like up in the ceiling watching them try to revive you? Yes, I exited my body fully. I was not afraid. In fact, I remember looking down on my body and the medical professionals around me and thinking, huh, that's interesting. Kind of weird, but okay. And I floated over and I started, you know, eavesdropping on other conversations that

were going on. I even went up to the front desk and I overheard. heard the front desk nurse who was sort of overseeing the whole recovery area. She got on the phone with my surgeon and was telling her, like, we need to get this, you know, kid to a room right now, you know, like I was aware of the hubbub. And it didn't bother me. And I didn't see any entities. I didn't see, you know, I didn't see Jesus. I didn't see Jesus. I didn't see Buddha. I didn't see any of that. I was just in the hospital room floating around. And then I got, you know, at some point I went back into my body and woke up.

And it was much less peaceful being back in my body because I was hooked up to ivies. Was that a jarring experience to kind of go back in? Like, I've heard that just in listening to some, you know, anecdotal stories about, about that is kind of getting slammed back into your flush. I don't recall being slammed back in. I do recall thinking, wow, there's a lot more pain now. You know, there was no pain before I would like to not be in this body. Well, it kind of reminds me of the experience I had.

I remember when I was a freshman playing football, first time really playing the game, had a pretty wild concussion. And I remember sitting on the bench. I couldn't remember anything. And all of a sudden I was floating out of my body. The same thing. I remember watching myself on the bench. It was the weirdest experience in my life.

But I thought, there was no way I floated out of my body. You know, I thought I just. I just had a concussion. I just wasn't there. But now that you're describing this and what I've heard from other people, I wondered if that's what happened to me in that moment where, because it was so weird. I could remember every dream I've ever had.

And it was like I was accessing this whole other part of my mind. And I couldn't, but I couldn't remember a play. I couldn't play the game anymore. I couldn't even. It was like, it was just the strangest experience. and I wonder if something like this happens to you and there's these dreams involved and there's sleep paralysis now, it's like was some sort of barrier broken? Right. Yeah.

And that's kind of a theory that I've heard. And it's based on, you know, like I said, lots of research. And I won't mention her name again just because I don't want to promote her. Yeah, yeah, totally. I get it. But she does have 40 years of research with thousands of Inde. and OBE experiences. So some of her research is probably.

She's compiling data, right? So like whether or not her worldview is the same. It reminds me of sort of the euphologist. Right. Same idea, right? Like you might not agree with their conclusions. But the fact they're compiling, you know, years and 30, 40 years of anecdotal data is sort of neither here nor there.

Exactly. It's funny when your description reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Tombstone, when Doc Holliday's sidebars, probably the, greatest written character in any film ever. That's just, it's just my opinion. But he's dying and he's saying, oh, that's funny. He's wiggling his toes. Like, it's like, you sense it is sort of this funny feeling to be loose of your body.

That's fascinating. So this happened, I mean, you've had an unbelievable sort of childhood in this sense, right? You're, or even into young adulthood, you have entities that visit. You have, they're showing you the future. My thought, one thing about that is like, you know, the ghost of Christmas. future in the Christmas Carol where you get to go and stand in the room and see things, but you're not interacting, right? You just get to see like, oh, yeah, this is what happens if X, Y, Z happens.

That's amazing. And then, you know, then you have this OBE, sleep paralysis comes on. And what happens from there? Like you, so, I mean, obviously, as we talked about from the top of the show, is that you grew up in the church and there was a, whether there were cessationists or not, not really important because I think in most in most cases the supernatural is is really underplayed just this is broad brush this is in every church there are a multitude of wonderful churches that address this and recognize the very supernatural aspect of our faith and everything that happened in the in the

scripture in the text that was very much supernatural right but broad brush you know we live in an academic academic paradigm and so it's much easier to say that's just happened then if we're going to still believe and this is just me paraphrasing that just happened back then you know once once a the apostles, you know, passed away, martyred and are gone, those gifts are gone, right? And that's, it's an easy way to sort of say, oh, you know, everything can be measured now. There's nothing, nothing miraculous and nothing, nothing weird or paranormal if you want to use the vernacular, you know, of the secular world, right? That doesn't exist. And yet here you are, experiencing all these things. And that causes you to veer into a very different place.

Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I, you know, I, dealt with the sleep paralysis. I dealt with that for years before I met my partner. And then, of course, you know, I told you, I met him. And when I recognized him from the vision, that's when I made that decision. I'm walking away. I'm going to follow my destiny. And I'm also going to find answers that will actually satisfy the questions that I have. And so I didn't immediately go to the occult. Of course, you know, I started with a eum, as one does, trying to, you know, the archetypal route and trying to find a way to rationalize it. And then I thought, no, I need something that will actually account for the actual, you know, personalities that I'm dealing with. And especially

these sleep paralysis personalities, they are distinct, you know. Mine was feminine. it. And she, she followed me for years. And following that post-op OBE, she was with me constantly. And you describe that like she would show up when, and during bouts of sleep paralysis? Right. So let me just give you my first experience with her. It was right after, shortly after surgery. So I was in bed. I was recovering. And I was laying on one side. And I, sometimes with my sleep paralysis, I am locked into my body and I am accurately hearing and perceiving the things that are actually going on in the house. There have been times when I've had sleep paralysis and then I, in the middle of it, I will hear somebody walk into the house and you hear them unloading the

groceries into the kitchen and putting things away in the fridge. And so after it's over, after I escape, I get up and I go out and I say, were you just in, you know, did you just do this? yes, were you just on the phone with so-and-so? Oh yeah, you know, they called. And so sometimes in sleep paralysis, there is that, what does Vicki Joy call it, the sort of screen or the overlay? There can be that, but my first experience with sleep paralysis, I was hyper aware of what was happening in the house. I was locked into my body and the bed dips down behind me. And I feel this hand rest on my back. And I thought at first it was my mother because I knew that it was feminine. And then all of a sudden, it goes from sort of just touching my back to taking one finger

and just jabbing it into my back. And she bends over me and she starts whispering, it's time to go to sleep. And I remember the way she was jabbing me, it was so, it was so painful. And I don't remember if I called out to Jesus at that point or not. I just remember I had never had that experience before in my life. I had no idea what was going on. And the whole time I could hear my mom and my brothers in the other room. And when I finally escaped, I was able to, you know, take control of my body again. I called to them and then I was able to accurately describe to them everything that they had been doing in the house while I was going through that, down to phone calls. and everything that I was hearing.

So that was my first experience with her. A lot of what ended up unfolding with her was it became like very vampiric in nature. One time many years later, she crawled into bed behind me and I had been sleeping. And so when she crawled into bed behind me, my first conscious thought was, oh, this must be, you know, my boyfriend. But then as it started, she, you know, at this point I'm thinking it's him, as it's moving closer and the bed's moving with its weight, I start to realize, no, he's not here. You know, he's not anywhere near here. This isn't him. And so in my head, I remember addressing her and saying, you're not him. and she was right up behind me at this point

and she whispered into my ear, yes, I'm not him, but wouldn't it be a lovely dream to have? But wouldn't it be a lovely dream to have? And that was the tenor, that was the nature of what she would try to do. She would either come immediately to torment me or she would try to insert herself into dreams that would quickly turn into lucid dreams,

or she would come in the sleep paralysis day. She came into my room quite a few different ways, quite a few different times. But always the nature of the visit was the same. It was an attempt at seduction, if not just outright torment. But she couldn't do anything without my permission. And as soon as I became aware that it was her,

I would immediately call out to Jesus, or I would not give permission. And then at the point when she realized that she wasn't going to get her way, she would immediately just become nasty. She was just a malicious energy. And when I say she, I'm not, I don't assume that it was a she, but that's just how it always presented itself to me.

So yeah, it was very much what people describe as, you know, that succubus or incubus energy, always seeking to seduce you with a dream and if you will allow yourself to go along with it, they may not show you what they really are or they might. And then that just adds to their pleasure because you know, you grant permission to this thing to proceed. And then it's, you know, has the joy of revealing itself to you and now you're stuck because you gave it permission to come in

and to be in that space with you. So, yeah, I never granted her permission, but she didn't stop trying for about six years. She was with me. So you're still calling on Jesus at this point? Oh, yeah. Like I said, I knew he was real. I know, I mean, I, he, I, it's really hard to describe because there was a part of me that was incredibly angry at God. And incredibly just finished with the Christian.

faith. But on the other hand, there's certain jobs that only Jesus can do. So, you know, as messed up as that was, at the time, I just, I figured out organically on my own that calling on Jesus was the only thing that would repel these attacks until, until I discovered the occult. Because once I made contact with my quote unquote guides, the sleep paralysis stopped completely. I was going to ask you, Joe, I was going to ask you if that kicked up as you dealt with the occult. No, no, no. Well, okay, let me give you a parenthetical.

Talk to us about how, well, also talked about how you walk, how you dove into that. You know, I know we're, we've kind of danced around it because you're walking away from your faith, you're having all these, these experiences. Church is not giving you answers. So you're angry with God. But you go full on, you know, because I know, I know a bit of the story.

So I'm playing with the stack deck here. But I finished your thought in the parenthetical there and then talked about how you got into this because you go full on. This isn't just like, man, I'm going on these yoga retreats. You know to Sedona and I'm going to stand on the vortexes and all that stuff. You went full on and joined the team. Yeah, I wanted to make contact. I was tired of them skirting around and not showing themselves and then just being like

somewhat useful some of the time. And I wanted to know who they were. But the parentheses is that when I say the sleep paralysis stopped, I have in my notes that I went five years without any sleep paralysis experiences. And I did the math. So when I say I didn't have that, I don't really believe that I didn't experience it. I think that they were just wiping my memory or I just didn't recall it. I don't believe for a second that involving myself in the occult drove the darkness away.

but it did or maybe perhaps I might you know guides that I are so-called guides they were higher up on the totem pole and these lower entities were just you know the sleep paralysis demons were driven away because they I don't know but to my mind when I started it started with taro I was trying to find ways to develop my psychic gifts and a tarot reader is kind of like a psychic, but with more steps, because you're using cards to interpret what's being given to you. If you talk to, tarot readers all have very unique theories and styles and philosophies, and I don't want to, like, bring any glory to that. I can only speak to my own experience, but I started studying the occult. I was studying tarot from people who were highly achieving, like, Wall Street level execs, and they also practiced tarot and they had a successful tarot, you know, teaching series or a seminar or a class that, you know, you could take. And I started studying under these very highly reputable people because I thought, well,

if they're making it work and they're, you know, very high achieving in the world, they're, you know, fabulously successful, they're not witches. they're just people that are able to divine messages using these various means. I thought, well, it can't be bad. You know, there's this idea that tarot readers are, you know, these witches and they're like huddled in these little huts. And they're looking at their cards under candlelight. No, these are lawyers. These are people who work on Wall Street, high-level people who read tarot.

They're doing divination. This is divination, absolutely. And so these were the people that I went to to learn because I thought, well, I'm not going to learn from witches. I'm going to learn from people who are better than that. And that was my logic. Turns out that they all were witches. I didn't find that out until many years later. So I, when I say I dove into the occult and I studied everything that I possibly could, as deeply as I could, I mean it.

I mean, the tarot cards for me were just, you know, not, this is a bit of a crude analogy, but a bit more like a war shack for the spirits who are with me to use to communicate. And sometimes they didn't need the tarot cards. Like I would receive the download directly, but the tarot cards were there as to sort of, to serve as a confirmation for whatever possible language but barrier there may be. And so I started practicing that. And as far as divination goes, you know, I was, you know, good at it to my everlasting shame. But it was a path that I took because it gave me access to, it gave me a sense of control.

I guess that's kind of the point. You know, I felt like I was so out of control for so much of my life. And these things would just happen to me or I'd have a dream or the sleep paralysis demons would attack me. And I didn't have any answers. and I had certainly had no control. And so by delving into, you know, meditation, different forms of occult ritual, you know, all of the usual things, I was taking back control so that I could have communication with these things on my terms

and also to form alliances with things, with entities that could protect me from the lower level ones that were following me around tormenting me. And it worked for five years, you know, while I was in the occult, I didn't have, I don't remember ever having a sleep paralysis attack. So in that regard, I felt like I was doing really well for myself and I'd solved my problem. You know, I felt like the church, you know, this is my perspective. Then I felt like the church had become this sort of outdated and decrepit tool that no longer worked to solve my problems and I had found a way to have community and to talk to these

entities who were protecting me and who were there for me. So there was one, the very last sleep paralysis episode I had was right around the time I made contact with my guides. Real quick, I mean, this is a common term. So I don't want to judge one, just for clarification. Because, you know, I know we talked about taro and like people have some familiar. familiar. It feels like fortune telling. Most cities, you walk around, you find like a little rented house that's like a psychic tarot card, right?

And I think most people kind of think that's just like fortune telling mumbo-jumbo. And what you're saying is now what happens is these entities tell you and they communicate with you through these cards. This is like high level, you know, this is like next step up Ouija board kind of things. And then when you talk about spirit, spirit guides, that's like, that's a very new age term, right? If you have any encounters you're listening to this with the new age, there's this idea that there's this spirit that goes with you and you communicate with it and it, you quote, guides you.

Of course, as your story and testimony played out, they don't guide you to anything that isn't anything but destructive or evil, even though it's given to you as a destiny. I like how you said that because I think that's always how things are wrapped, right? These things are benevolent and this is your destiny. and I think it's important because this is part and parcel for you because you lived this through this, but just so people understand, like, these are, these are common things you'll hear if you listen, but these are not, this is not like hippie, you know, hippie talk or, or this is not fun,

like have a, I remember, listen, when we were, when my youngest brother was graduating from high school, my mom went to war with the parent board and the administration at church, or at the high school, because they thought it'd be really fun to have a fortune teller come to their senior party. And it's just fun in games, right? And I want people to listen to this. It's not. Like, this is not, you're talking about high level people doing divination in order to figure out what their moves are on Wall Street, for example, which I think is as a fascinating paradigm, because then if you needed to believe there's something to it, then Joe's story, in addition to what we're talking about, this is prevalent. These people are witches.

And what they're doing is talking and communicating with real entities. And I, you're stressing this, but I want to just restress it because I think this is a powerful story in that sense because I think sometimes we we as a people, and I'm not saying we generally speaking, we as humanity will just sort of haphazardly, you know, just sort of brush things off like taro as it being like, oh, it's just, you know, it's just fun. It's just fun to like pretend, you know, it's like the little paper things we've made in, you know, in junior high where you would, you do the, you pick the numbers and pick the things and it would tell you like what kind of car or mash.

Remember mash, Nate? Or it'd be like, would you live in a mansion, an apartment, a shack or a house? It's just like goofy and you put your crushes underneath the as options and you'd play these games, right? But it's not what this is. Like this is not that. So I'll let you continue. But I just think it's important to call this out because when we talk about a spirit guide, you actually had an entity that was with you. I had.

Maybe you would say a sign to you. Yeah. And more than one. More than one. Yeah. I don't know that they were necessarily assigned to me, but, you know, I guess also to your point, first of all, just as a little aside to your anecdote about your brother, when my mom was in school, this would have been in the 80s, early 80s, they brought in a Ouija board when she was a little kid

and they were going to have all the kids practiced with the Ouija board. And my mother out of her entire class was the only child who stood up and said, I will not do this. and so how far have I fallen from my mother's standard? I'm neck deep in the occult and my mom wouldn't even play with a Ouija board when she was a kid. But yeah, no, these are not happy go lucky angels. These are not spirit guides. When I use these phrases, I guess I'm using words that are in the vernacular. It's vernacular.

But no, no, they're definitely, they are demonic. and my fascination, quote unquote, with them, would have never occurred had I not experienced them. And so there's almost a seduction there where I don't have the privilege of not believing in them. They have done nice things for me. And yet now I'm having these demonic attacks. So, of course, I want to be allied or allied with the ones that are more powerful that I perceive as benevolent so that they can protect me. Right.

What I think is interesting, Joe, is like when I, as you're talking about this, and I think about it, it is the promise of the darkness, right? Like, it's the idea, we were just talking with Dr. Laura Sanger recently about music. And there's this idea of like there's the whole famous story about selling your soul to the devil, right? It's Robert Johnson at the crossroads, right? And you get these gifts. And it's the same temptation of Christ that give you the cities.

It's the idea to make you famous and give you things. And what you find out at the end of this. is that what seems to be benevolent and they're giving you these gifts, those are ultimately the ruiners of your of your lives. And they're ultimately all destructive, whether it be fame, whether it be riches, et cetera. Those things are not inherently bad. What they do, though, is those ultimately corrupt if you are. And I ask to this a ton of times. It is so unbelievably difficult when you're given these, given those type of things, which is what, you know, Satan tempts Christ with. The cities of the earth, you know, adoration, worship. And as people, right? When you get this,

it is ultimately destructive, although it comes as something that feels benevolent, right? It's this gift, but it's, you know, and I think there's a time of, there's a time of plenty, I think that some of these, you know, I think that it wouldn't be such a thing. And in ancient history and in modern times, that people didn't get something from it for a short period of time. Yes, exactly.

There's a trade, right? Like you're, and are you, and just back to your story, then are you, I mean, you come from the church, you probably, are you acutely aware at this time too that like even though you're in these spaces and you're having sort of this satisfaction and it feels like answers to some of the things you've had like still being like do you have a nagging sense of like this stuff is still really bad even though I'm here yeah it's funny you should ask that so jesus served as a problem he he was really uh blocking by ascension man so yeah they yeah i had a card and it's called a jumper card and it's a card that will

present itself. I won't go into a lot of detail on it because again, I don't want to bring glory to it, but it's something that will, it will physically jump out of the deck. And I was really good at shuffling. So it's not the work of me just being, you know, a crappy shuffler and, you know, the cards fly. Yeah. Right. No, there was one specific card that would jump out of the deck whenever, when there was a specific entity or guide, as I called him, present. And it was the three of ones. And so when I saw that, I would be like, okay, you know, I had. You know, There's something here and whatever happens next is, you know, going to be from him. But to back up, I'm so sorry, to back up for just briefly, right when I started dabbling in

the occult, that's when I had my experience with the hooded entity. It was right around the time I was opening myself up. And this was my, I think, my last sleep paralysis episode that in probably before I had, you know, my hiatus from them. So I'm laying on my bed. I had just opened myself up. I had done yoga meditation. And then it was bedtime.

So I was laying on my bed. I went to sleep. I awakened in my bed. I'm locked into my body. And I open my eyes or what I think is opening my eyes. And standing over my bed, there is this tall, hooded entity. And beside him are standing three little people. They have really big, bulbous heads.

they look like your classic gray. Now, I want to stress, this is years before I ever found blurry creatures. This is years before I ever knew that grays were little. I mean, my only alien reference at that point was probably whatever I'd seen on TV. We didn't have a lot of movies or TV growing up. So I had no area in my brain for grays. And no context. And they were standing beside my bed.

And it was the weirdest thing because from the tall-hooded entity, I felt a malevolent, almost a hatred. And it was directed at me. From the grays, I felt absolutely nothing. They were almost, I wouldn't say benevolent, but they were so incredibly neutral that in my panicked sleep paralysis state, I remember thinking, at least they're not against me. And then up above in the ceiling over my head, there was the. this swirling black vortex up in the corner of the ceiling. It looked like a wormhole.

And I remember, you know, at the time, I remember calling on Jesus and thinking, okay, great. Like that worked because they were gone. And I thought, wow, that was a close one. I have no idea where they were planning on taking me. But since finding blurry creatures and learning, you know, through your interview with Tim Albarino, I don't know if what I was actually. conscious of was the beginning or the end of the experience. So that was my last experience

because at that point I was like I thought okay this cannot continue I've got to figure out how to protect myself. So with these so we talk about the jumper card because you went forward and back here is that that that that was what would show up the end the hooded guy and the three great. Yeah and it was kind of a plot twist because that was not revealed to me until after years later after I had repented. So I had multiple astral experiences where I would be attended by three somethings, and they were always like little. There was one time I awoke, and I was walking through this snowy landscape. I remember there was almost like an aurora borealis going on in the sky. We were walking through the snow. It was me. I was in my pajamas. I was barefoot, and yet my feet were

not cold in the snow. And I was being guided by three white wolves. And it's me. I'm lucid. I'm looking around and I'm seeing these three white wolves who are with me. And I'm thinking, well, this is weird. What am I doing here? And then the next thing I remember, I black out and the next thing I remember is being on my bed or in a place where I'm on something like my bed. And there were all these hands grabbing me and they were grabbing me to hold me down and the three white wolves were also there but they didn't intervene and they didn't help and I remember thinking why are they so impassive like what you know they're here to to guard like why are they not helping and I eventually gathered my I stopped panicking long enough to call in the name of Jesus I wake up it's the next

morning I'm in my bed it was like 4.45 when I woke up and that was when my alarm would go off for me to get up anyway. So I get up and I actually ended up calling one of my friends. And my friend actually did identify as a witch. And I remember going over the experience with her and thinking and describing to her, you know, I was there, whether it was astral or not. I was there and I was attended by these three white wolves. They were there to protect me.

I didn't get any negative energy from them. But then when all of those hands were pulling me down onto the bed and they were grabbing me, they didn't intervene. And she thought about it. And she eventually told me, well, I think that those were your spirit guides. And they didn't intervene because they knew that you needed to find the strength within yourself to save yourself. And at first, I thought, well, I guess that kind of makes sense. You know, yeah, you know, spirit guides are there to help you, you know, stretch your muscles and to get stronger. And, you know, maybe they didn't. And, you know, maybe they didn't intervene because they were hoping I would find it within myself.

But the thing is, the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. Because I didn't have the strength to save myself. I had to call on Jesus. I didn't have it within myself to make the experience stop. I had to call on Jesus and cry out to him. And so it just didn't make sense. So anyway, another time I was sitting in, sitting in the living room and I was with a kid, I know, and at the time she was four years old.

And this was around the time that I'd had the dream with the three white wolves. And we're sitting in such a way that my back was to a hallway and there were two rooms on either side of the hallway. And the little girl was facing me on the other side of the table. And we were drawing together. And you know that sensation, like when one of your family members walks behind, you and you can tell because the air moves the hair on the back of your neck kind of moves you can tell who they are by their footfall you just know you don't have to look to know well I'm sitting

facing this little girl she's facing me on the other side of the table I sense three what I thought were children pass out of one of the bedrooms walk directly behind me go down the hall and go into the other room at the exact same time I'm experiencing this the little girl looks up from her drawing, looks over my shoulder, tracks these things with her eyes, and then once they disappear into the other room, she looks up at me, she cracks a little grin, and she says, huh, they just walk behind you. And had I experienced... It's like a horror movie. This is like full on a, like a horror movie. Yeah, and had I, experience that on my own, I would have, I would have explained it away. I would have, you know,

like, oh, I made that up or I was being, you know, I was in, you know, whatever. But the little girl saw them. And I remember asking her, well, who was it? And she's like, they were, you know, just kids. And I, and I didn't press the issue because I'm not, you know, I didn't want to get into it right then. I was like, we're going downstairs, man. Grab your crayons. Here we go.

But a few weeks later, I asked her, you know, would you describe to me what they look like? And she told me, no, because it's, I don't want to. And I said, well, why not? And she said, because it's just too scary. And I thought, okay. So, you know, it took, it took years of all of these experiences coming together. And then that with the jumper card, it wasn't until after I had repented. I was reflecting.

And I realized that those, those three, the three that would always show up, I wonder if those or not the three little grays. The card itself, the three of wands, it's a tall person. He's cloaked. His back is to you. You don't ever see his face. And he's got these three stabs with him. Stabs are, as you know, walking sticks.

And the three stabs on this card, they are blooming with leaves and buds. So they're not alive and yet they are alive. They are tools. He's a journeyer. He takes the. them with him, walking sticks, tools, they're used for protection, they're used for, you know, it was just like the similarities between what I had seen standing by my bed and what I experienced in other episodes, it became clear to me, like, I'm not sure if what I was experiencing was

so much a spirit guide, maybe it was more so an extraterrestrial thing. And that's where for me it kind of breaks down and I don't have the answers. But for me, the two things are inextricable because of that. I don't know how to separate it out in my mind. I know that they are different, but somehow they're connected. Yeah, I think a lot of us, you know, especially who are coming to these topics for the first time, you know, just looking back on your story and you're talking about a list of characters. You know, you got the graves, you got the kids, got this Nordic guy that shows up.

You've got wolves, this feminine entity, the hat man. You can't put any of this in one category. And I think the human response, especially for Christians, is like, we got to throw it all in one category. We can't have, we can't have all these characters. It doesn't make sense. It's like, well, I mean, think about it in a chess board, you know. Satan's got his chess team trying to defeat God in this cosmic war. It's not just ponds.

You know, he's got a whole list of characters he's using because, I mean, on the back of your heart, it seems like every single time, no matter what happens, you know you're not in the right place. You know you're not where you should be. Right. You're not comfortable. Even though maybe some things are less or more, some things go away, your soul isn't at ease. Your soul isn't at peace. No. Yeah. And that really was sort of the problem that ultimately became the plateau on which I'm. I stalled because these entities, like I said in my email to you, and, you know, when you practice the occult, it becomes very apparent very quickly that there is this theme of continual sacrifice. And one of the things I kept running into was, you know, this Jesus character, you know, they didn't like it when I brought him into it. And some of them would react more positively believe in others, but it was always this, I knew in my heart that I was going to have to make a decision one way or the other. And so at that point, into a blurry creatures. So I, let me ask you

one thing real quick. When you're at the height of this, did you consider yourself a witch? No, no. I never gave myself that label. I understand that practically looking at the definition in the dictionary, I was definitely practicing. witchcraft. But the way that I rationalized it to myself was, well, I didn't ask for these entities to start bugging me. I didn't ask for any of this. I'm just trying to harness what I have. And, you know, again, it brings me back to that dream where I felt that bright light shining on me and just saying, you know, obey me. And it wasn't saying it in an angry way. There was no, I didn't feel wrath. But what I felt was you are known. You are completely known.

and even so you are my child and all I'm asking is that you obey me and so you know with each of these you know little treats that these entities would give or these like glimpses into the future at each of those junction points I had a choice you know I could follow my heart which is what Hollywood would have you believe you ought to do at all times or I could obey God and depending on you know where my heart was at the time, you know, maybe following my heart would be obeying God in the moment, but my heart was so far from him because I was in disobedience. And so I did. I followed my heart. I followed my destiny. I followed division. I think that's such an important point too. I don't want to cut you off, but like this is such a message that you will hear everywhere. Follow your heart, right? Follow your heart.

And I think it's fascinating is that the Bible's very, very specific about saying the heart is the, deceitful. It's a heart's deceitful or the heart is your wellspring of evil, right? There's this idea that like, and you know, in the messaging, and it's not an accident, right, is follow your heart, you do you, self-love. And I'm not going to stand on a pedestal right now because I want you continue your story, but I remember listeners that those things are all the antithesis of the gospel. It's to die to ourselves.

It's to pick up our cross daily. It's to, you know, is to resist the temptations of the flesh. Mm-hmm. Right. And yet those are the messages. And listen, what you're saying is those are the messages of the occult. That's what you're, that's what you struggle. That's the occult telling you like, you know, in order to do X, Y, Z, follow your heart, follow your destiny, right? These are the messages of the occult. And yet they are completely whitewashed, sanitized, and then sold the masses here. And it's a, you know, I always don't want to over spiritualize things, but it is a spell. It feels like it's put over over the masses to say, oh, these are the ways. This is how. you should love. Right? And really, it's, again, Nate and I say it's all the time. It's just, it's, it's new marketing for the same. Exactly. You know, and it's, and so I'll let you continue because I think it's fascinating because you, you reach this precipice. I know that you, as you alluded to earlier, like in order to ascend in the occult, you have to denounce Christ. Everything biblical.

You have to, essentially have to throw that off and, and, and you never reached that point. Yeah, I remember working through it with one of my friends and a friend who did identify as a witch. again. And I remember telling her, you know, listen, you know, I would love to continue down this path. But every time I hit a block or every time I'm attacked, the name of Jesus is the only thing that's working for me. And she said, she said, well, you can have Jesus. You can have Jesus. Bring Jesus with you. You know, I was just doing this psychic thing the other day. I was healing somebody long distance. It was like, oh, I guess Riki. And I needed an extra set of hands. And she proceeds. to tell me and she went into this story in detail and she was telling me that she got Jesus in the

room and I and I remember realizing in the moment no I can't I can't bring Jesus with me because Jesus doesn't do that he's not a gopher he doesn't run to and fro assisting witches in healing ceremonies and I think that for me like I just realized that I had been so blinded And actually the moment of realization, because at this point, you have to remember, I haven't had sleep paralysis at all. I thought I'd solve that problem. So I found blurry creatures. It was toward the end of last year, because I've only been a member for a few months now, for maybe half a year. That was so good at all. Yeah. Thank you. Well, yeah, I started listening. And unfortunately, one of the first episodes I listened to was the episode with Tim Alvarino, where he was talking about how a lot of abductions. You know, people think they're stopping them, but they're actually waking up at the end. And I remember thinking, okay, I need to walk away.

I think this is too much. But then I found Vicky Joy's episode. And I listened to that thing probably three times because it opened my eyes and made me realize that I had been looking at the thing totally backwards. And not only that, but I don't know, there was something about listening to her. It was the Holy Spirit. use that episode specifically to soften my heart and around that time i just i repented and i burned my tarot decks because of course i couldn't sell them i'm dramatic like that i had to burn them in a bonfire it has yeah it has to be a big event yeah i just i wanted them to be gone

and i didn't want anybody else to possibly get their hands on them and you know get get them And so I just, I burned all of, and I had, you know, probably a hundred books. I had all sorts of, like, coarse materials. I had a lot of occult stuff that had to go. And I just did it. And I told God, you know, I'm, I basically told God, you know, I am not going to do divination anymore. And I'm actually going to go out of my way to not even look for signs. And I'm going to ask that you please come to me through your word or through your

people, you know, like somebody from church or your word or, you know, a dream maybe, but I'll need you to back that up with scripture. But yeah, I completely just, it was almost overnight. I just fell on my face before God and repented. And I mean, immediately, I mean, I knew I was forgiven. He never left me. I mean, he was there the whole time. And isn't that his nature? Isn't that his nature? that it's well so you know so you you really have this radical reconversion right you throw off and literally burn these these materials these decks these sort of these tools of the occult you burn them all you give your life but you'll give your life back to Christ and and so how does that affect like some of the you know the things that that had been regularly happening to you like the appearance

of entities the appearance of like this stuff just cease and do you are you how does that because now you're filled with the holy spirit returns right like like that And you, well, not that you ever left, but it's like you give him back dominion over your life. Yes. And I surrendered to his will. And then for the first time in my life, I finally realized that in that experience, where I had felt him saying, obey me. And then that sense that he knew me completely.

And he knew everything about me. And even so, you know, he loved me. I finally went. I was able to sort of unpack that a little bit more and realized, you know, If I accomplish nothing else with my life, it is going to be living in obedience to God and his will for my life. And so after I had repented, I think I around, well, no, I still hadn't, I still wasn't a member of the show yet. But my sleep paralysis came back, complete, like it came back. These demonic entities, they were apparently angry.

or the entities that had been protecting me from the lower level entities had withdrawn their protection or whatever the case may be, the sleep paralysis kicked up and it was awful and terrifying, but as is the case in all of my experiences, you know, as soon as I have the presence of mind to remember, you know, what's going on and, you know, to call on the name of Jesus. And there was kind of a shift there because for a while I would sort of address the entities themselves and rebuke them in the name of Jesus. But now at this point, I just go directly to Jesus because there's really no point in talking to them. So I just, yeah. In fact, one night I have a cat and I raised him, I found him on the side of the road. And he was like a few weeks old. So. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . do you talk to you at all? I'm glad to report that he is mute mostly.

But he was with me one night when I had a sleep paralysis episode because I have fully brainwashed him into thinking that it's normal for cats to sleep all night because I raised him. Well done. So he is in the bed with me and I had this sleep paralysis experience. And after I woke up, I sit up in my bed. I turn on my lamp. My kittens there laying on me. and this sort of little black orb traveled across my room over my bed and out my window and the cat tracked it with his eyes too.

I would have thought that I was not seeing what I was seeing. But, you know, as with the case with the kid, you know, I wasn't the only one seeing it. And so that happened after I had repented. And, you know, it's sort of, you know, quieted down little by little as time goes on. on, but, you know, I, it does still occur. One night, well, I guess the most significant one that happened recently, I was talking with somebody who's very close to me in my family, and they were dealing with, they were dealing with an issue of sexual sin, and they were trying to break free, and, you know, I could hear in their voice that they really wanted to get out of this situation.

And after we talked, I prayed over them. And I told God, you know, please, you know, if there is a spirit associated with this thing that they're not able to get away from, this thing that they're not able to escape, please drive that out of them. Please get that spirit, whatever it is, out of their life so that they can break free. And then I said something that I do not recommend anybody ever say. But I basically told God, you know, if necessary, send that spirit here. And I will face it with your strength. And I prayed the prayer. I sort of filed it away.

The next day I got a phone call. This person had taken the final step to walk away from that situation. And I was very grateful. and we were there was much rejoicing and I thought okay wonderful you know the Lord answered my prayer the Lord answered all of our prayers and then that night I was in the astral and it's not like I'm intentionally there I don't know how I get there and I was presented with this I was standing in the woods and a clearing in the woods and I was presented with the suggestion that I could make this into a sensual dream.

And I'm, you know, one, bitten twice shy, I thought, uh-uh, nah, but I'm going to see if I'm, sometimes in the astral, you're on single player mode, but sometimes you're not.

And then the other entities that are out there, they don't reveal that you're actually multiplayer until it's too late, until you've given permission. And so I was standing in the meadow and I'm thinking, well, I'm here. I'm fully in position.

possession of my own mind. I'm going to just test and see how much control I have over this dream. And so into that dream, I made a kissing noise, like the sound of giving someone a kiss on their cheek. And something about me participating to that degree apparently gave permission. It was like I succumbed to the temptation just enough. Immediately I was thrown into my bed. I'm paralyzed. I'm on my bed and this overwhelming sense of dread comes over me and I hear the exact same kissing noise that I just made come from the corner of my room. And I see this demonic entity come spider crawling up to the side of my bed and just open its mouth and just unleash.

I mean, there's no other way to describe it, but to unleash hell. It was so angry. And I remember in that moment. moment just having this realization that this is the this this is very likely the demon that i was praying against and told god that you know to please drive it out of my my very dear close family member and i don't know for sure but i got the distinct impression that this thing was very angry at me in particular and that was the last most significant event of course every single time, I don't know that people talk about this a lot, but every single time you come out of

sleep paralysis, you know, you call in the name of Jesus, you beg him to please come and rescue you. And he, you know, he does. You sit up in bed, you turn on the lamp. And sometimes the room isn't just immediately clear. You know, when these things happen, I usually spend at least 30 minutes to two hours, depending on how bad it was, you know, just in worship. There's a lot of times. There's a lot of times. when you can't help but just weep. And you're not only weeping because of how traumatic or terrifying the situation was, but you're also weeping with gratitude because you realize that you are just really nothing. You're only human.

And we're playing on a chessboard that we were not, you know, as we are right now with our present flesh, with our sin nature, with our weaknesses and our frailty. we're not built for this trust board to play on the level and in the dimensions that some some of these entities can. But thank God that he's provided his son and that he is God and he created us. And I'm not implying that we're not capable of rebuking these things. But when you are around these things and they are attacking you or they're coming at you, You just realize how little you are and how great is your need for a savior.

Amen. And I think what you raise is a good point. And I think that your experience in this last part of your interview is important for Christians to hear. Because I think sometimes we think that, you know, that Jesus is magic one that we get to wave around. And that these things are just always going to stop. I think Jesus delivers us. But I don't think that Christians aren't going to face demonic. oppression just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you're not going to have this stuff coming at

you all the time and messing with you and you're going to deal with it you know and and i think sometimes you know like we i remember luke and i had a long talk with tim about this off off air about some things that he knows about you know how complicated these these spiritual attacks can be sometimes and how we have to constantly be going back to christ and figuring out ways to to to continue to give it to him to fight these battles for us and you can't, just because you're a Christian doesn't mean this thing is just naturally going to stop and leave you

alone. Sometimes it sounds like sometimes it upticks. It comes at you a little bit more, the more offense you get. You know, in nature, the more this stuff doesn't want you to do it. A hundred percent, right? Like, the more that you're over the target, the more

resistance you get. I mean, I think this is an encouragement to everyone out there that is fighting the fight, right? The more that you are a threat to the kingdom of darkness, the more incentive the darkness has to come after you. They can't. And remember, the supernatural spiritual realm, whatever you want to,

whatever vernacular you want to use for that space, it is very much legalistic. So they have to obey the name of Jesus. But as Nate said, a lot of times there's complicated things that come into play. I, you know, Joe, I love your story because I, for someone that went, you know, went there and back, right? And I think it's just, there's so many, I feel like there's 10 podcasts in there, right?

Like each one of your experiences could have been a single podcast where we just unwrapped it all. Yeah. And you've, you've been on a journey. And what I love the most is that God never gives up on us. And it doesn't matter how far we get into the weeds in the darkness. He doesn't give up. And the God we serve is in the business of redemption. And your story is that it's a redemptive.

it's a story of redemption. It's a, it's a prodigal son, right? Which we all are prodigals, right? And we've all gone and, you know, and thrown our inheritance to the swines. But the amazing part of this is that,

is the father is waiting with open arms to, for us to return. And I think there's just so much power in this testimony. And I want to just encourage you because, you know, as much as we have free will and we make our own decisions,

the amazing thing is that story that we have, each of our own individual's story, stories. If we give our lives back to Christ and there's that redemption in all of our stories, God uses that. It's the idea, the biblical idea of what was meant for evil is now. Exactly. Right. And so that is what's happening here. So like you said, whether you, you know, whatever you do with your life from here on out, this is your story, yours uniquely. And it is going to impact folks that you have no idea. Like I really believe this, that,

that our testimonies and in our lives, people we interact with, that we'll end up in heaven someday and we'll meet people that we never really met. You know, that, that'll say your story or this sort of haphazard thing you may have done, this act of kindness, this brought me to the Lord, right? And I believe that with my whole heart. And so I want to encourage you that, like, you know, your story not only matters, but it's going to help people because you went to the precipice and across and returned. and you know you've you've you've pulled back the veil you've seen the dark you've seen the darkest

of the darkness and and yet cry you choose christ right and i and i just think and he chose you he chose you he does he chooses all of us and i and i and i love that he never he never stopped pursuing me and you know one one thing that i think is important for people to think about it's is this idea that when i was in disobedience when i was in rebellion i didn't have the sleep paralysis i didn't have the scary demonic attacks. I had euphoric, I'm sorry, euphoric experiences. I met these shining, shimmering entities. When I was in disobedience and rebellion, it was nothing but, you know, the highs, mostly, you know, there was some scary stuff in there, but it was the, you know, the positive, you know, the things people describe when they take, you know, substances and they

have these euphoric experiences, it was when I began to, repent that these things, the mask came off. And so as long as you're willing to play their game and to live in rebellion, there is a blindness that comes over you. You're complicit with the darkness. And you get to see them as these shiny, shimmering beings or these motherly entities or these, you know, they give you the love that you're perhaps father didn't give you or whatever. But there's something about it that's so disingenuous,

Because when you speak the name of Jesus or when you bring God into it, the mask slips. And so, you know, when I repented, that's when the attacks would happen after. You know, and so there's something to be explored there. Not necessarily by me, but. But you make a great point. Biblically, right? The Bible says that the enemy masquerades is an angel of light. Yeah.

And if you're if you are complicit, if you are willing to play that game with him, then he'll give you the good experiences. For sure. For sure. But it's all the point. As you said, I loved the poison is in the cup. Oh yeah. Yeah.

You can, you can, you can do manifestation rituals. You can have all the prophetic dreams you want and then chase them down and say, oh, this was, you know, this is my destiny. But like I said, every single. single juncture, you are presented with the choice to obey or to follow your own heart or follow your own will. And so while you may be manifesting something that you think you want, you may get the cup. You may get that prize, but the poison comes with it. And so it's not, it's not for your good and it's not for God's glory. And, you know, thank God that he was able to use these things

to be a part of my redemption because, you know, some people continue to choose to run from him. And so, yeah, I'm incredibly grateful for your podcast because, you know, before finding you guys, I didn't know about aliens. I didn't really know much about sleep paralysis. I certainly didn't, you know, know a lot of stuff. And so through listening to the podcast and then becoming a member and listening to more of the podcast. It sort of has like, it's lent a perspective and a context for a lot of stuff.

And now I realize how deceptive a game the enemy is playing. So. It's interesting. Your story is interesting because I think you came in from the back door in the sense that, you know, some people are just trying their best, especially a lot of Christians right now, just to put into perspective what is happening with disclosure and what are these. alien beings and you're on the other end where you're like you're trying to make sense of the of the experiences you've had with them you know you've been in that realm and you're trying to get what is this realm what what are these things what are these experiences i've had and then most people are just doubters they they struggle with doubt and they can't believe in the weird stuff out

there because they haven't seen it themselves and it's cool that the podcast from all angles those people who don't believe and want to believe or people who want to figure out what they've experienced can sort of find some answers to guys like Tim Alberino and Judd Burton and Doug Van Dorn and Laura Sanger. All of them, yeah. Yeah. The whole crew.

The whole blurry crew. Absolutely. And we appreciate it, you know. And I think, you know, when you grow up, you hear phrases like test the spirits, there's really a lot. That's a loaded thing. That means spirits are going to come to you.

spirits are going to try to deceive you spirits are going to you know they're going to show up and how do you test them you know ask them who are they loyal to who is their father do you serve jesus christ and and it sounds like the people on our show when that happens there's a reaction you know it's hard to believe for a lot of christians that you can actually get a moment where you could test a spirit you could actually say who are you what team are you on yeah exactly what jersey are you wearing what jersey got on there yeah that just sounds so fantastic to so many people. And you've, you've been there. You've been in those moments where you could have and did. So thank you for, for sharing your story and coming on our podcast and opening up, like Luke said, we could probably talk for hours about all these things you dropped on us. But I think it's sort of a good sort of spread of your story and helps people, because a lot of people have had experience one part of this, one shape or another. And they don't, we don't all get the blurry baptism like you had, but, um, but we get little pieces. Yeah. And it's hard to, it's hard to make sense of those little things. Yeah. Yeah. All together, it creates a very

confusing casserole and one that I may not fully understand the side of heaven or any of us, but it is, it is so encouraging to have at least some parts of the casserole identified. Um, you know, because every time, you know, you listen to a podcast. That's going to be a meme on our members group. So 80s. Who didn't have every type of casserole on the sun and the end. I just see. Or in the Midwest, right?

Someone's going to post it. Right. It's casserole. I love it. There's going to be all the weird stuff in a pie. I can just already see it on the members group. Oh, gosh. Yeah. We'll give you, you credit.

Yeah. This is, this is the, yeah. The cryptos credit. Yeah. The cryptic cassero. And I just want to thank you guys and encourage you. Like, I don't, you know, I'm everything that I have. have said here today sounds incredibly insane i know and i you know nobody in my family knows this stuff

really i you know i i i have a whole life where none of this really you know i have this very strong faith in jesus and i'll talk about him and how he saved me but you know really truly i was thinking about this you know from now on when i give my testimony if i don't name drop blurry creatures i'm not doing ah let's go i'm not giving this i'm not giving the whole story, you know. Well, thank you. That is completely humbling. So we are, you know, I think honestly, in the day, like, we're just glad that you're back

in the family. And, you know, if God can use this little vehicle, you know, then we just want them to use it and get us out of the way, right? And that's really our heart. And so I just thank you for this and for the story and for the encouragement and just say how grateful we are for your story and how grateful we are. and how grateful we are to have you back in the family per se that I'm continually amazed at the at the graciousness and of God and what he has never any pursuit of us and in the way that he can use all the broken parts

and put them back together to make something absolutely yeah and thank you guys for what you do you know as long as God has you here you know I wanted you guys to know that you are reaching people And like I sit in my email, you know, you're a light shining out into the darkness. And you will probably not know the depth and the breadth how far that light has pierced this side of heaven. But thank you. And appreciate what you guys do. Yeah, thank you. We'll see you in the blurry verse.

Oh, yeah. And I think I think blurry creatures more and more as it goes on as a collective. of all the people who've taken the chance to go against the narrative, all the guests, all the people who have taken a risk and a chance to say that there's parts of the story that we're not talking about, every single guest on our show. And I think, you know, in some ways it's just a big old bus of people who are like willing to go down that road. And we're just two guys in the back somewhere making jokes and trying to not take ourselves

too seriously, but we take your story seriously and everyone else who comes on the show seriously. And we give people, hey, it's your chance to tell us your story. And some people like, love that. And some people get mad at us about it. But I think that ultimately it's the people and the guests who make this show what it is. It's your story that helps make the show what it is. And yeah, I don't know. I think Luke and I are just, hey, we got tired of people not willing to listen to other people. And yeah, if there's one person out there who hears anything that I've said today, and they've also experienced that. If anything, you know, resonates,

then I'll consider that I haven't just totally, you know, she's, you know, it's crazy, but there are people out there who have these experiences, and if you guys hadn't had a podcast, then I would still be very much thinking, you know, like what's going on? I'm alone in this, so. No way, hey, we're in the same boat.

We're on the same way, because I think if we, you know, the idea, that one person found their way to Christ because of the time that we spend, you know, on these microphones and talking about stuff that is, that makes it eternally worth it, right? And so, this is, I mean, that's the, that's the reason you want to do anything. And so, I mean, yeah, you know what, you're going to reach people. Yeah, I believe there's, you know, we talk about destiny.

There's a destiny over your life. And I really believe that your story's going to be a part of that. So I want to encourage you in that. Again, thank you for being, I think you're being a member, one. Thank you for, I'm on the show and spending a couple hours with us. And, you know, thanks for taking a risk. It's a risk as you just sort of, as you mentioned, it's a risk to get out there and tell your story

and kind of bear your soul to, you know, to a couple strangers and Nate and I and then also, you know, a bunch of other folks to listen. But, man, God is going to bless that. So we're excited to see what happens with your story and how, yeah, we'll check in and see how. Yeah, you might have some weird horse breeders reaching out to you.

You're like, hey, what can you make for us? No, no. No. I'm going to have to be like, no, that's not what you want. We want to star. We want to field those emails. Yeah, it's funny. It's like when we were kids in the 80s, you know, my little pony was such a big deal.

And you're like, you have no idea. My little pony is there. Like Mike Heiser says, if it's weird, it's important. There's something going on there. And we have no idea. We have no idea. We're really often what's going on out there. And every story helps shed the light a little bit.

And not to make a joke, but I don't doubt, I don't doubt the, the experiences that our listeners have one bit. I'm more just humbled than trying to make sense of it all. So thanks again for coming on. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thanks, Joe. All right.

I'll see you around.