Blurry Creatures - EP: 203 The Bones of Moses with Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Dr. Joel Muddamalle returns to Blurry Creatures and we delve into a peculiar story found in the book of Jude about a supernatural fight over the body of Moses. Why would the location of the body of Moses matter in cosmic space and time? What did the ancients believe about the importance of where our bodies are buried? Join us for a fascinating conversation about the unseen realm and one of the stranger stories in scripture. Dr. Joel is currently the Director of Theology and Research for Proverbs 31 Ministries and Lysa TerKeurst and is passionate about teaching the brilliant truths in Scripture.  Guest: https://muddamalle.com Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Intro Song: Juno Dreams "Space Warp"  Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients that their dog needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right?

That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy, and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA. And thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it. I'm giving it to our two dogs.

You know, and I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting Rough Greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less. They're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Green's really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping.

Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials.

So we're moving in. We're in spring here. Moving in the summer. Maybe you need to refresh that wardrobe so you're ready for the summer, t-shirts, shorts. These are everyday essentials made from premium materials. Here's a chance to refresh your wardrobe for the summer. At the price, it's 50 to 60% less than similar brands. And we always ask, how do they do this, Nate?

And it's because they work directly with ethical factories, cut out middlemen. So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's a real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, I got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floan it shirts or light and air to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio.

If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer, refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. These people, this is important, the details of the text is so important, relying on their dreams, defile their flesh, reject authority, and then slander glorious ones. The Greek word here is doxa. They're slandering these glorious ones, these angelic supernatural beings.

And then it's like, dude, what are you doing? Then verse 9 says, yet when Michael the Archangel was disposed. rebuting with the devil in an argument about Moses' body, he did not dare utter a slanderous condemnation against him, but said, the Lord rebuke you. He'd be like, what the heck is going on? How do I make sense of this? You know? So in the same way, the ancient Israelites and the authors of the New Testament and Old Testament, they're writing in time, space, culture, and history. And so their understanding of cosmic space should be incredibly important to us. Because it is. framing the way that they think about life and death and the afterlife and the things that are possible and things that are not possible. All right. If there was like, you know, all the, all the phrases that you say on the show, Luke, this one is like the bone zone opus.

It is. This is like, this is the moment you've been waiting for. You love to say it. I'm going to give you the floor right now to just introduce this. We're bypassing all the exits. And we're, Do we're pedal the meadow. We're going straight to the bone zone. Big time. And we make jokes about that, but on this podcast, that means, you know, we're talking about alternate history and. Yeah, skeletons, Smithsonian, you know, all of the, all of the ancient history.

And so today, today's is fun. We, Dr. Joel Mudamali is coming back. Joel's become a great friend. Did an episode with us previously about territorial spiritual, which is, which is a huge episode for us. fantastic guy. He's out there. The coolest theologian, I think you'll ever meet by far. Yeah. He takes Sasquatch serious. Yeah, I mean, he does. studied under Dr. Michael Heiser for his old...

And the only guess who really wanted the question twice. Well, you're going to find this out here. Yeah, he's asking for a redo. But today, you know, it's going to be fun. We're going into the blurry verse. We're going to talk about some of the very weird things in scripture. And specifically, the bones of the bones of of Moses. There is a, in Jude, there's a very interesting passage there. And we've been tossing this around with Joel for a few months about wanting to, want to come on and talk about this and what's happening there. And, you know, as Joel would say, what's going on in the realm of biblical cosmology and spaces and territories? What's happening here with this sort of off-handed, you

know, remark from Jude? And it's fascinating. And Joel is awesome, and this is fun. So it's funny how often the show we talk about bones you know Smithsonian where's the bones of bigfoot how can we haven't found them I mean it seems and we now we're selling a t-shirt you can get the bone zone t-shirt people are rocking the bone zone shirts right so it's a thing but I'm pushing through a little bit of head cold here hopefully not too too distracting

Luke holds it down with his deep sultry tones himself you know we're both singing baritone today is that's right we need another three three guys for a barbershop quintet. That's right. You know, I kind of like this smoky, this smoky version of, Nate, smoky eye, smoky eye, smoky voice, all smoky. Hey, I've been selling my soul.

That's right. You got it, dude. Podcasting all day. But yeah, it's great to have Joel. We tease about maybe Joel coming to BlurieCon too, which we're excited. We're going to have another conference. Joel's probably, sounds like he wants to come, Luke. Yeah, it's going to, it's, we talk about the origin story of blurry creatures,

and maybe the last thing I'll say for it, bring Joel on. But one of the things that really gravitated with you was, was the idea that in these, these Sasquatch Bigfoot podcast, start bringing on theologians and you start talking about, how all these things relate and what we now call the blurry verse, right? Getting to have a theologian, like Joel come on, is an absolute honor and a treat. And a walk through, you know, as Mike Heiser would say,

that some of the, some of the things that are weird in the Bible. If it's weird, it matters. Yeah. We're going to go into one of those spaces today and talk about this. And it's a very odd passage. But Joel's doing a million things out there. So, you know, check him out. Check out what Joel's up to.

Phenomenal guy, phenomenal command of the word, command of the Greek and the Hebrew. You know, all the things theologians say, hermeneutics and all that. But we're going to talk about the argument over the body of Moses. And we're going to bring on Dr. Joel Matamale. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning, with this Mount Hermann event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. We've been lucky on blurry creatures. We haven't had too many sick voices

over the last 200 episodes. But welcome back to the podcast. Joel Montemale, the director of theology and research of Proverbs 31 Ministries and a fresh author as well. This is your first book, right? Yeah, this is my very first book.

Let's go. Dude, I have some of your... I have one of your compilation books, though, man, actually of all things. So this will be a plug for Joel that he has known about. Praying through the Psalms, 30 days. Oh, yeah. How you talk to God.

Yeah. You're a part of this. I have that book. I am a part of that. And I will plug that. But no, you have your first book out. Sorry to catch off, Nate. Yeah.

Joe, Joel, uh, yeah. You know what's funny, Joe? I like to snipe Nate at the beginning. Try to try to get him like just like throw a little, you know, a foot out there so we can trip him up. It's just, it's one of those things. It's kind of like if you, if you're a sports guy and you know that every this is up until this last year, Chris Collinsworth

would slide in on Sunday night football. And it was this thing, right? People knew about like every intro here you come sliding into the picture, right? I'm coming sliding into just to trip you up a little bit. I know, dude. I was ready. I was ready for like the intro and everything. I was going to say, you know, like what we tackle. A lot of people are like, they expect our podcast to be more of a theology podcast. And we just talk about weird theology as it relates to the blurry verse, you know, because most of the time we talk about creatures and creatures just gets into, like, where they come from and how is it possibly these things still exist today. But sometimes we get into sort of the weird parts of scripture. And today, that's kind of what you were coming

on and talk about, the body of Moses. Yeah. And there's this crazy part in Jude, right? Jude 8 through 9. But I want to remind folks, if you haven't listened to Joel's first episode, right? This is Joel's second time. Welcome back. Part, part due, if you will, for a slap shot reference, right but yeah Dr. Joel Matamale your first episode is easily inside of our top 10 it was part of your dissertation if you haven't listened to that I would encourage you to go back it's about territorial spirits a fascinating dive into household gods did Romer 32 and the Elohim and how I should think of that and I'll remind folks as well that you did study the Old Testament under the late Dr. Michael Heiser legend himself yeah the legend himself and so this is how we became

friends it's awesome to get to be friends and you're doing so much out and in so many different spaces as a theologian if you I don't know if you even wear that or own that title but that's really what you're doing and so before we get into jude and we'll plug this at the end too but you have do have a new book coming out that that Nate mentioned so do we share real quick about what you're writing on I know it's not about not about not about arguing over the body of Moses but we'll get into that in a second yeah yeah actually I think it's a it's a great connect to a lot of what you guys are doing here with the blur your burst I remember the very first like blur your Creatures episode that Joel did. You asked me this question about Bigfoot. You know, I think you do that

with all the, all. I've been thinking about that question because I have a little bit of buyers remorse. I'm just like, I don't feel like I answered it the best way. And so now I'm like going back to try to think if I can get a redo someday with. Well, here's the day. Here's the day. Joel right now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me do let me let me let me let me hit this first. Let me let me hit the, hit the book first because we got a lot to cover with the body moz and then I'm going to do the the big foot deal. But man, the book that I wrote actually have it here. I don't know people see. It's called the hidden peace. It's finding true security, strength, and confidence through humility. And really, what's pretty wild. Like right now, if you pre-order the book,

I actually have an entire section that you get right away that is the origin story of Satan, of Lucifer. And most people would be like, wait a minute, Joel, why would you have an entire section on the origin story of Lucifer in a book about humility? And what I found fascinating, guys, is like, the original sin structure of the biblical text is present because of a lack of humility. And as I think about like the blurry verse and blurry creatures and being open to the possibility of a paradigm shift that helps us see holistically the entire scriptures from Genesis through Revelation, not flat, you know, like only one way with one interpretation, with one understanding, but in the magnificence of the mystery of God, like the prerequisite for that is truly humility.

And if we don't have humility, if we don't in the book, you get all of this. But I say humility is three parts, three part movement and three part participation. The movement is humility is first an awareness of who God is. Like if we don't know who God actually is, everything else goes jacked up. So first, it's an awareness of who God is. If we know who God is, and we can know who we are. And if we know who God is and we know who we are in light of who God is, that actually frames how we relate to other people.

And then I talk about humility in terms of a protection, a preservation, and a prevention. Humility prevents us from thinking too low of ourselves. It protects us from thinking too high of ourselves, and it preserves us in the life of Christ. And as I think about the podcast, I think about the people that listen to this. I have a strong suspicion. If you get to the undercurrent of everybody's story into the blurry paradigm, there was a moment of humility. there's a moment of having to come to terms with our inability to comprehend the text by our own means. And we had to be open to the idea of maybe I don't have a huge, like a big enough picture of who God is.

And that's the pathway of humility. It actually gives us so much more clarity. So anyways, that's a little bit about the book. That's awesome. I was just thinking about that because we had Dr. Laura Singer on and she was talking about frequencies and the whole idea of like music. and that was part of Lucifer's job. And I asked her, you know, was it, did he kind of get that rock star syndrome

where he starts, you know, creating this music almost like a band guy would? You know, you're just this nerdy guy and all of a sudden you start playing these songs and people start worshipping you. Yeah, like chicks start looking at you. They're like, wow, you're hot. Yeah, like not hot ever before,

but you put a guitar on, you're hot. Hey, Ed Shearin's a babe now, right? I mean, this is how it works, man. That's the only way the redhead species I had to keep going. I had to pick out of ginger. 100%. But, you know, because I say that because on our show,

we've learned that sort of our realm echoes heaven. And a couple years ago, I probably think that was crazy that, you know, Lucifer plays music and that's part of his fall. But now I'm like, it would make a lot of sense that he would start dabbling in these things. And all of a sudden, you know, he loses that humility. He starts to think different about himself. And then, you know, pride is the antithesis, right?

And so you have this. You have this ultimate pride story, right? And so, and I talk about it actually, in the book, I say, like, you know what pride is? Pride is such a deceitful guide to us. Pride leads us up a mountain. And all along, pride's like, you've got this. You're going to crush it. The view at the very top is the most beautiful, glorious thing you've ever seen in your life.

And it leads you up. And you're thinking you're safe, you're secure, you're stable, like all is good. And then pride is like, yo, just peek over that ledge and see how things are. It's an even better perspective. you're like, yes, this is epic. And you go and you peek over it. And then pride pushes you off of that ledge and you come crashing down. And in fact, Nate, I think you're brilliant because what you're identifying,

I get into it a little bit in that in that free PDF kind of that download. But it's like the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages explicitly say what you set. At one point, Lucifer looks upon the throne room of God and suggests like in his heart, His heart became like prideful. It longed to have what only God in his rightful place could ever have. And so I don't know if I've said it on this episode before, but humanity has always been meant to be reflectors of God's glory, not absorbers of God's glory. And the second we try to absorb something that we were never intended for, self-impulsion

is on its way. It's such a good word, man. That is. And there's so much smoking mirrors in that realm of. What I think about is, is celebrity and status and the things people chase, right, is the idea of being famous. And you have these elements of worship, right, that we're never meant. As you say, I think it's a brilliant way to put it. We're meant to reflect it and absorb it.

And yeah, I think the messaging, you know, in our culture and really it's a human thing is that, you know, no, no, no, this is you're supposed to adoration. You live for the adoration of others, not for. So I mean, so the new book, The Hidden Piece, it's on pre-order. It's on pre-order. It's on Amazon now. You can search my last name or just the title, The Hidden Piece, P-E-A-C-E. And when does it actually come out, Joel? When does it actually come out?

A little bit of a runway. It comes out March 5th. And so, yeah, man, we're super excited. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill. And that's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge.

And you get to keep your phone number. Get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone, been acting like this has to be expensive. It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up blurry every day giving us the scoop on what's going on in the academic world and the ancient world on Mitt Mobile. Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile.

If you like your money, say where it is. Mittmobiles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra, cement mobile for details. I love it. I love it. It's funny, Joel, because Luke immortalized this term.

We often talk about giants, giant skeletons, Smithsonian, megaliths, ancient history, alternate history. And Luke started calling it the, he started calling it the bone zone. So today we're going back to the Moses bones. Bone zone. Hey, but if we can, before we get there, Nate. Before we,

this is like that, this is like that meme, right, where the car is like skidding across to the exit. Before we go straight into the bone zone. Joel, we're going to give you

your shot of redemption or your second shot, right? That's right. And I think, you know, this is a wise thing. Not a lot of people come back and ask for another shot at this.

But you've been, unlike Tim Mackie, you've been thinking about this topic. Yeah, that's why. That's why we love it, dude. I mean, it's so out of the box.

And it's a question that theologians don't get very often, and either you love it or hate. All right. So pose the question for me one more time so that everybody can get exactly what it is. I've been thinking about this. And I love the way that you ask it. Okay, go ahead. Joel, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Okay.

So I think Bigfoot is a phenomena that's actually meant to help us recognize that there is such a thing as cosmic space. There is such a thing as cosmic geography. And there has to be in the same way that there are multiple stories of the deluge. And there's multiple evidences of iconography of serpentile kind of imagery separated by space and time across geographical locations and thousands of years. There's like there ain't no Instagram live. There's no way to communicate this in any type of mass way overseas. So if all of those things have to be true, then the question is how is it possible to bypass? space and time. And my answer to that is cosmic geography. There are thin spaces on earth where

the supernatural, supernatural and the earthly round are actually intersecting together. Think about Jacob's ladder. I think this is happening. Jacob's ladder, this vision he has. I don't think it's purely a vision. I think it's sacred space. Why does Abram build all the altars everywhere that he goes? Sacred space. What's happening with the temple tower Ziggurat in Genesis 11, sacred space. I mean, we have this everywhere. So I actually think that the phenomena of Bigfoot is actually supposed to be an indication to let us know that in these different spaces, that there's actually cosmic geography that's taking place. And it's the presence of supernatural meeting the earthly in thin spaces. Nate, let me tell you what I think about this. This is, this is so fascinating.

Because we just talked about this episode 200, episode 200, because there's this enigma around Bigfoot, right? Because unlike a lot of creatures in the creature space, most of them are pretty evil, right? They're pretty bad. That sounds like a really elementary way to kind of talk about it, but they are. But there's this weird enigma with Bigfoot where there are encounters and experiences that are benevolent, right? Where it's not, it's like missing four and one stuff. Like these kids go and they hang with a bear for 48 hours and the bear saves them. No bear's doing that. This isn't, you know, this isn't gentle Ben, right? So you have this. The theory is most Bigfoot like people, most of them, not all of them, but most of them do. Keep going.

No, I'm going to say that it's interesting, though, because that's such, if it's an indicator, then you'd go, then it wouldn't be necessarily be, well, there's some scary encounters. There's a lot of that aren't, right? So you have this sort of like duality of encounters that don't make it like a, you know, like a ghost or a dogman or some kind of thing. We'd probably like, when to go well. We paint it as demonic, demonic in the sense that it's evil. Like, not necessarily it's a demon, but it's demonic because, man, it's, it's as evil as evil gets. And that isn't always the case, right? So I think that's...

Yeah, because in episode 200, he's like giving gifts to people and... And he likes Reese's pieces. I mean, so it should be all that bad, right? Well, so, but so, I mean, we're not trying to do a taxonomy on supernatural beings or anything like that here, but it does, it does seem like... Oh, we will, though. It's... It does seem like there are categories of types of supernatural beings.

You've got the presence of potentially archangel. souls and Elohim, lower Elohim, disembodied supernatural beings. And then we're going to actually get, I'm going to end our time, I think, talking about this passage, but it's to your point, right? So first John 4-1 through three. So I'll go back to the text. I'm a theologian by trade. So I'm going to go back to the biblical text.

It says, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they're from God. Right? And so, like, you just brought this up. You're like, wait a minute. One, is it possible for spirits to be embodied? like, yeah, absolutely. That is a possibility. Secondarily, is that warning then suggesting that all spirits outside of Yahweh are evil?

Well, no. Some are, and some are still part of the divine counsel of God. Still faithful representatives of God's kingdom and his work that are on mission, doing his work. They're faithful to the king, man. They're faithful to the king. They're allegiance to the king. Yeah. Yeah. And so that to me actually creates a framework of like, well, why are they mean to some people? Maybe those dudes are evil. You know, like, maybe they've done something that there's judgment upon upon them for the we might not even know. So again, this whole supernatural realm conversation.

And cosmic geography, we're going to get into that because that I actually like, I gave the punchline before we even got there. That's my solution actually to Jude, 8 through 10. Like if you read every and we can jump into into this conversation. Let's go. Yeah. But if you like, y'all, if you, first of all, most people don't even know that the book of Jude exists in the New Testament. And when they do, they get panicked because they're like, wait a minute, I can't find it because it's like literally like a chapter. It is just Jude, you know?

And then he's, this is some weird stuff that's in here. Quoting source texts that are not present, but let me, let me read. Real quick, I just want to say, I appreciate your humility to go back to what you were saying to open this. to even entertain the question, you know, with that much, I just like your attitude about it because, you know, Luke and I have been kind of trudging this for three years of this question of Sasquatch that you can see, and some people's just the way they respond is they don't even,

they can't even understand to take the subject serious. It's like, not only do you, do you like the question, but... Think about it, you thought about it. It doesn't knee-jerk you at all, and then you... I just like it. I just like that attitude because... You know, we get all sorts of responses. I like you.

Nice. We can be friends. I just, it's just not your typical theologian response to a question like that. And you've done a lot of thinking about it. So anyway, keep going. Joe, I mean, Joe, can we start? Can you read this back? I mean, maybe you plan on you know, but because people, I think you were getting to this.

As people say, like, Jude is, you can easily skip over Jude on your way to Revelation, right? You just, oh, there's something there, a few pages. Yeah. And what's happening? Okay, so let's read it. So it's Jude 8. And I'm going to start here. So there's a whole context about apostates, past and present. There's these folks and people. They're doing all kinds of wild and whack things. In verse 7, it talks about Sodom and Gomorrah. It talks about sexual immorality and perversions. And then verse 8 is in the same way. So the same way, phraseology, if I already do a little bit of hermetical work, it's connecting to verse 7. In the same way, these people, this is important, the details of the text is so important, relying on their, dreams, defile their flesh, reject authority, and then slander glorious ones. The Greek word here is dachsa. They're slandering these glorious ones, these angelic supernatural beings.

And then it's like, dude, what are you doing? Then verse 9 says, yet, when Michael the archangel was disputing with the devil in an argument about Moses's body, he did not dare utter a slanderous condemnation against him, but said, the Lord rebuke you. And then he goes on and moves on to some other stuff, but these people blasphemy and they don't understand, you know?

And so, like, the big question is we have two options. One option is we ignore that these two verses even exist. You know, like Jude was on a, on a DMT trip. We're actually going to talk about that later. Something weird is happening and,

and we just need to bypass it. Or if you are, and this is, man, y'all this is why i think our consistency in our hermeneical method is so important if we legitimately say we're the people who believe in the nearer in word of god like i do i believe the scriptures are an errant i believe that they're truthful i believe that god has divinely inspired them i believe that he worked in space and time and gave these human authors flexibility to be able to write in such a way that when you're reading paul's stuff you're like oh that's paul you're reading peter you're

you're in Moses. Oh, that's Moses in the Old Testament. All of these things don't have to be opposed to each other. They can be connected to each other. So if that is possible and if that's true and we hold to it in every other place in Scripture, why would we not hold true to that in Jude 8 through 9? We should. Yeah. It's uncomfortable. Our listeners love it. But the traditional, I guess the traditional church system would probably gloss over this link. Let's just keep going to the bigger point of the sermon today. Let's not talk about. It's not talking about two entities fighting over Moses's body. Right. So if you're like, let's only talk about that. Right. And I'm like, hey, let's make sense of it, right? Let's make sense of it.

Because if we can make sense of this puzzle piece here, it actually puts into orientation some of these other things that are happening. So if you read in, if you open up New Testament commentaries and you just are like, what is going on? Pretty much I did this other day. I'm going to say 98% of the commentaries. One, they're not going to even mention this. They're just going to move right by. Some of them might even say, this is a word passage. Move on.

Like, I actually appreciate those because at least the scholars being honest. Like, this is weird. I don't want to deal with it. I'm going to move on. But a lot of them actually try to make a connection to Zechariah chapter three. So I'm actually going to turn to that. Zechariah chapter three. And I understand why they do that because you have a similar situation that's happening in

Zechariah three where there's a conversation with Satan. Now, we're going to get into some nerdy details here, but I think it's important. So in Zechari 3, you have the high priest Joshua who's standing before the angel of the Lord with Satan. Now, the Hebrew here is Hasatan. There's an article in front of Satan, which lets us know that this is not a personal, not the name for a personal being. It is a title, an office, right? And the office is the accuser. So Satan is standing in his right hand to accuse him.

And the Lord, this is going to sound familiar, verse 2. So Zechari 3 starting in verse 2. The Lord said to Satan, the Lord rebuke you, Satan. May the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you. Isn't this man? And then there's all this other stuff about Joshua, about his filthy rags and his impurity and some guilt and offense that's taking place. And so if you read New Testament commentaries,

you're trying to make sense of this body dispute. And they're like, oh, it's an echo to Zechari chapter 3. And so really what Jude is doing is he's actually going back there. and he's talking about that. But the problem is there's actually multiple problems. One is the best closest source text is in Zechari III. It's another second temple piece of documentation called the Testament of Moses. In the Testament of Moses, there's a whole other conversation that's going on between Moses,

his body and Joshua, his friend, you know, and what's going to happen with Moses' body. But there's three very specific issues that I'm going to argue that Jesus, Jude 8, and if you're one of those New Testament scholars, I wrote the commentary, you know, I'm sorry, but I do disagree with you. And this is why I disagree with you. I love it, Joel. One, the Jude text never mentions any part of Zechariah 3. If you compare it side by side, the text doesn't have Satan and Moses in some sort of conflict. The issue is between the devil and Michael. So the subject matter is incredibly important. It's Moses and his bond. Well, that's completely missing from the Zechari III context.

So as a scholar, as a theologian, I'm trying to look for connections lexically, contextually, historically, socially. So I'm missing about 90% of that there, right? You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

Welcome to your ocean front room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

Well, my first question is, does that mean these two maybe in the same rank? That's why they're fighting over this because they're both similar in their power structure? Yeah, so, I mean, this could be very possible. That's brilliant. It could be very possible. especially if you take Daniel 9 and 10 into consideration.

We're in Daniel 9 and 10, Michael is presented as the prince of Israel. Like he's the prince, the archangel over God's people. But you have the prince of Persia, who's presented as the arch nemesis. So it does seem to be some equal power play that's present. That actually becomes very important.

I didn't even think about this until you just said that. That actually becomes very important with how Michael communicates in Jude 8 to Satan, which is pretty interesting. Let's keep working. So one, the issue is there's a lack of textual connection. Number two, there's no evidence of Moses and his guilt. The context of Zechariah 3 is Joshua and his guilt. There's nothing that has to do that with Moses.

And then here's the third issue. It's a pretty big one, actually. In the Hebrew grammar, we've already talked about it, that the Hasatan of Zechariah 3 is not, some people are going to panic. this, they're going to be like, wait a minute, Joel, are you trying to tell me that Satan isn't in the Old Testament? What I'm saying is if you're a Hebrew scholar and you're looking at the grammar, it's a leap to then make the textual argument that Hasatan is the Lucifer of the New Testament.

This is a member of the divine counsel who's the accuser. There's this thing called the theological interpretation of scripture where we can read in theological argumentation back to the text as we see it elsewhere in scripture, but if you're just doing straight kind of Hebrew exegesis, it would make it highly improbable that we're talking with two similar entities or being. So to your point, Nate, the better example is Daniel Lattin 10, you know, because now you have two comparable options. So now we're left with a huge issue. What the heck is going on? Right. Like what is happening here? So here's my solution. And just so everybody knows, I never had a new, or novel thought ever.

I'm stealing, literally I'm stealing Dr. Heiser's phrase when he says that. And I'm pulling from some of his research, some of the things that he's proven and seen. We have to remember that the ancient Israelites cared about cosmology. They cared about land.

They cared about space. They cared about where they lived and where they died. So when we talk about cosmology, this is a word that refers to an understanding of the ordering of the universe. The ancient Israelites lived and wrote the scriptures within a very specific cauldron context. Here's an example.

My son another day walked in. He goes, Dad, you got the Riz. I looked at him like, what? I thought he cussed at me, y'all. I thought it was over. I'm like, you said, what? And he said, no, dad, you got the Riz. And I was like, like, define that for me.

He's like, charisma, dad, you've got charisma, the Riz. Okay. So it's a phrase that is located in social time. that if you're 500 years later or 500 years before that and you heard that, you'd be like, what the heck is going on? How do I make sense of this? You know? So in the same way, the ancient Israelites and the authors of the New Testament, the Old Testament, they're writing in time, space, culture, and history. And so their understanding of cosmic space should be incredibly important to us

because it is framing the way that they think about life and death and the afterlife and the things that are possible and the things that are not possible. Obviously, the best example of this is Eden. We do a whole other thing about Eden. Eden is the epitome of cosmic geography. Eden is, as Mike used to always say, Eden was on Earth, but Earth was not Eden. This makes sense of Genesis 215.

When God tells Adam and Eve to subdue, the Hebrew word is kabash, to rule over or to subjugate the world, well, why the world? Well, God tell Adam and Eve to subject, the world. Well, here's why. The world was still not yet underneath the dominion of Yahweh. God and his kindness and his sovereignty decide to take one land and an apartment of land and place it on earth and that was sacred space, cosmic geography on top of a mountain and put his vice regents, his image bears on that mountain as his royal children in order to have them, Genesis 215,

rule to go out, to conquer. This is militaristic overtones of, of every, everything that's happening. So with that in mind, cosmic geography, notice what happens to Eden? Sin enters in. What does God do? He locks up Eden, y'all. He's like, uh-uh, I cannot have my sacred space desecrated. So he puts the guarding cherub him outside. He sends Adam and Eve out. He protects them. He gives them some stuff. He clothes them in animal skins and all that. But God is going to protect sacred space. He's going to protect that now. He doesn't. He doesn't. that for Eden, but it doesn't always happen in other places. Throughout the

entire Old Testament, there's geographical locations that are sacred space. Think about Abram and the promised land. Think about Saul and David and the capturing of the lands of Canaan. All the national chaos and the land conquering and the destruction of the pagan

idols. And this is all conflict with the nations because the nations are following false gods. And as they're following false gods, they're on land. they're on territory. They have hijacked Yahweh's claim to what is his. And so he sends his people out on a militaristic battle to reclaim his land and his territory.

Now, some places, this kind of becomes important later on here, some places become desecrated. So if you have sacred space, you can have desecrated space. I think of a place like the Valley of Hinnom. So Second Chronicles 28 is a great example. of this, where you have Ahas, he's 20 years old, he doesn't do any of the things that his ancestor David does. And the text says that he cast images of bales. He burned incense in Ben-Hanom Valley. Listen to this. And burned his children in the fire, imitating the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had disposed before the Israelites. He sacrificed and burned

incense. There's scripture after scripture of this type of detestable behavior. By the way, guess what Jesus refers to as the Valley of Hnom in the New Testament? Gahena. Yeah, that's right. This is desecrated space. And it becomes so desecrated that it becomes unholy. And in its unholiness, it's actually associated with. It's the physical representation of a potential eternal state of being.

And that's where we get the concept of hell from. It is a Gahanna. It is unholy. It is a desecrated space. Okay. you know like Joel why did you give me all of this information about Eden to the value of honome and gahna and cosmic geography like like what does this have anything to do with the body of moses all right remember this moses is part of god's family and moses isn't just part of god's family

moses i'm going to make the argument moses isn't god starting five like if he's about to have an all-star dream team moses is probably playing like power forward or something you know what i'm saying like Like he is not just an afterthought. He's a key player in God's redemptive history. He's like James Worthy. He's James Worthy. You know, maybe a little bit better than James,

really. It's him and Elijah that show up on the mountain transfiguration, right? I mean, Nate, you're stealing my thunder on this. I mean, yeah, Nate's always skipping ahead.

Like, yeah, so like, okay. So let me ask this one. And I think you're getting here, Joel. Maybe this would be a good segue.

You know, we talk about Moses. and I think it's fascinating because we're doing, going through some in my Bible study that I'm going through now about how God tells them, brings up in the mountain

and tells them that he's going, basically he's going to be collected to his people or he'll be God to his people, right? And you have this. And then as you're saying, this, I'm thinking about the way Abraham and the way they buried people in these spaces that were...

In the homes of their fathers be carried to their, in the graveyards of their fathers. It's ancestral lands, sacred space. Right. So this has always been the question, and I think we're going to, and I'm excited to answer this, but maybe this is where we go,

but it's such an odd passage in the way that, why, why, why does the Satan, an accuser and title? And I wanted to say something, too, if you listen to any of other episodes, and just as an aside, we did it, we did do an episode on Satan. And you're lining up exactly what we were talking about, that this is a title, right? And that when we talk about Satan in the temptation of Christ, there's a, there's a, a lot of evidence that could be the Prince of Rome, right? This idea, this is the, and so, and you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, right there and I love this because this really does line up with what things we've talked about

on the show. So I wanted to say, if you haven't listened to the show we did with Doug Van Dorn on Satan because this is going to play right into what you're talking about. But my question in that diatribe is like, what does the darkness want with Moses's body? Oh, oh, yes. Let's go. Let's go there. Yeah. Okay, think about this. Moses is one of God's starting five. all right maybe not worthy we might be a better maybe like Larry Bird right we gotta go maybe a little I mean he might be MJ he might be Mike like he might play power forward we we need to go through this when he go shooting guard like shooting guard I mean Mike can play whatever he wants to play honestly like he he's that good but I mean yes he is he is phenomenal right okay where does Moses die

you just mentioned it you just mentioned it Luke you just said he said like all these patriarchs there's a key phrase that they are gathered up to their fathers think about Joseph Joseph is stressed out in Egypt. Why? He's like, you better take my bones with you. When God finally, when God finally takes you, takes you out of here, you better take my bones with you. Why? Why do you that?

Because if Moses, because if Joseph is buried and left in Egypt, just a quick question, is Egypt the promised land of God? No. No. Egypt is foreign territory. Yeah. It is cosmic geography, but the geography is not Yahwehs yet. And so for Joseph, Joseph stressed out, I think. He's like, don't leave me in foreign territory.

I belong to Yahweh. So my bones have to be buried with my fathers. And my fathers are in ancestral lands that are connected to and within the promised land. So here's what happens. Moses actually dies. And where he dies, the text tells us, that he dies in the trans jordan it's the territory on the other side of the jordan in other words it's not canaan so if he dies in a land that is not canaan that is not god's land where does he

die he dies in enemy territory yeah right into your first episode joel that this is there's someone there is some elohem presiding over that place that will take wants to take a claim right now think about this think about ancient movies or like not even ancient movies but think about gladiator or you know oh oh dude i was thinking about this other day the william wallace movie brave heart remember brave heart remember the end like the end like don't they decapitate his head like this is pretty graphic brutal man i were crying in high school yeah right and they put it on on a yeah right and it's a spectacle right why why is it a spectacle it's to prove to the world that the revolt the rebellion is over and then you take that i mean this is what the end the dark force has thought

Jesus was doing on the cross. They thought that they led Jesus onto the cross to show the world that the rebellion is over, that Yahweh has been defeated. In a total turn of tragedy, of just irony, of redemptive reversal, the cross becomes the means of victory. So, but why is this problematic now back for Moses? Because if Moses is an enemy territory, his body is an enemy territory, well, it gives the enemy the opportunity to gloat.

To be like, hey, I'm going to cast fear into everybody else's. hearts and minds and thoughts because if Moses is a starting five and I've got him in captivity here in foreign territory, just wait till I get you. So at this point, people Luke and Nate are like, Joel, this seems like a stretch. Like, how in the world do you get this entire idea?

Well, there's actually grammatical and textual evidence for this. So here are a couple things that are very important. A couple of Hebrew words that we need to know in order to make sense of this. The two Hebrew words are oboth and Oberim. These are in Hebrew what are called place names. They refer to places, but it's a dual play on words.

They also refer to something else. So, for instance, Obo, it's a place, but it's also a term for underworld spirits. Oberim, it's a place name, but it also means to cross over. Now, here's a question. Cross over where? Where are you going to cross over? So in Genesis 346, we're actually told that Moses is buried in the very, valley in the land of Moab opposite of Beth Pior. But no one knows the place of burial. So we get this

general direction. I'm going to actually quote Mike from his angel's book because he actually did the geographical kind of research. I think this is very, very important. This is what Mike says, quote, the location has significance for Israelite cosmology and religion. This location is part of the geographical area that includes obo both and Oberim. Numbers 21, numbers 33, Mount Nebo, the mountaintop, which Moses viewed the promised them. before God laid him to rest is in fact explicitly linked to Oberim in Deuteronry 3249. So these locations were associated with the underworld and the ancient cult of the dead. Consequently, the valley mentioned in Deuteronomy 346 may very well be the valley of the Oberim

mentioned in Ezekiel 3911, end quote. And then there's a bunch of Hebrew grammar that we get into that basically reaffirms from not just Mike's understanding, but other Hebrew scholars that showed, oh, absolutely, Oberim and both. These were words that were connected to not just land, but a supernatural reality that is connected to that land. So what does this all mean? Moses ends up being buried. I'm going to make that argument that he ends up being buried in a land associated with the realm of the dead. He's an unholy space.

This is land that was not part of the covenantal land that God gave him. And Moses dies in a place that's literally littered with. evil spirits and all kinds of malevolent activity. This is the place where people are crossing over and now Moses is stuck in this situation, right? Like a thin place or a portal. It's a thin space. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice.

Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. I mean, we know from scripture there are blessings and there are curses, which sound to me very similar to sacred spaces and defiled spaces, right? Mm-hmm. You can speak a curse onto somebody and you could speak a blessing over somebody. And we believe that to be true and that's something you grow up with in Christianity. And then when you start saying, well, that can't be put in an area.

or a territory, right? That's too new age and weird. You're like, why not? Why can't it? And here's the thing, Joel. We talk a lot about stuff like this on our show. So all the native mounds, which aren't Native American here in America,

you know, we brought up Fritz Zimmerman who documented over 700 of them. There are many pyramids. And guess what's inside of them? Bones. They buried these ancient, you know, giants that came over here in certain ways where there's like,

there's like little people in the, by their feet and they're in a sitting position. Why would they go through all the effort to build these effigies and then bury their bones in such a way? It's like they knew. They had some knowledge and they brought it over here. Yeah. And you just see these connections throughout the show. And obviously, you know, and I'm probably not talking to a lot of theologians.

They're talking about giant burial mounds here in America, but we talk about it. And we're trying to, and we've always tried to figure out, you know, what did these cultures, know about the afterlife, about, you know, that we don't, that we don't understand. Do you think it's connected? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think it's connected. I think it's connected because it's reminding us that there's a consequence at the other end

of this whole thing, you know, like where we rest. I want to just piggyback on that because, and maybe you're going to get here, but from ancient Hebrew, like when you talk about cosmology, what was there then belief about the location of your body and its relationship? to maybe the afterlife or even to being reunited with your body at some point, right? Because we know this happens, right? This is what I think about in Matthew is when Christ is resurrected. These people come out of their tombs and walk around, right?

And so is there an association then where like they are understanding that like my body, this is going to be goes back to Joseph in Egypt, needs to be somewhere, is under the dominion of Yahweh so that when I am reunited with my body. And did they believe that, and this is what I'm asking, Do they believe this whole? The concept of the resurrection is kind of, it's kind of a novel idea. And there's debates in terms of ancient Judaism,

in terms of camps and thoughts of, was there actually a belief in the resurrection? Or was there just an understanding that in the end, your body, your spirit, it rests somewhere. And the place that it rests matters. So I probably land more with that because in terms of strict Hebrew kind of language, the way that they talk about is shiol.

And if you had cosmology, if you understand ancient Hebrew cosmology, they viewed Shiol as two places. Some of this stuff, man, it mirrors a lot of Greek mythology, too, with the legion fields and Tartarus, you know? And so the ancient Hebrews, they understood like, hey, there was, the language doubt use is,

and this is Greek terminology now, so I'm kind of jumping back from forth from Hebrew to Greek. But it would be like Hades and the depths of Hades. You know, So you have the inner place of the depths of shield, the innermost place that is reserved for the most wicked, the evil territorial spirits, beings, supernatural beings that are cast in judgment, and the unrighteous. And then you have a resting place for the righteous debt, you know, and that's what they're going to be.

Why did you wake me? Why did you wake me? Why'd you mess with me? You know, I was good. I was doing good. Unless I wanted to ask, because I think, you know, I think when we think about this, I'm thinking New Testament, right? And you have the resurrected Christ and look at me.

Here's my body. You know, touch the, touch the holes in my hands. But that would have been a revelation, right? That's a revelation. I mean, yeah, they're like, what? At the time of Jesus, right? So when we live, we're so past that, I just wanted to make sure that when I was sorting things chronologically,

we're going. So it isn't about ancient Hebrews believing, like, I got to be reunited with my body. My body's got to be somewhere that falls in the dominion. No, they care about being in the household of God. That's what they care about. That would be New Testament, like sort of New Testament theology, married to like the, so good. Yeah, reading back from the New Testament into the Old Testament, be like, oh, wait, this was already anticipated all along.

Right. So you have vestiges of this. You have hints to this. But strictly speaking, they care about being in the territory of God. They care about being in the household of God, the land of God. Those the land promises are so incredibly important here. And some people, you know, right now are like probably panicking, like Joel is. Moses right now being tormented by evil spirits and is he in the land, you know, but Nate actually gave it away. Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9. It's actually super important. Who shows up on the amount of transfiguration? Moses does. Moses and Elijah, yeah. Right? So clearly his body doesn't remain there that it's taken care of. Whatever happens here is dealt with in such a way that Yahweh reclaims his, his, his, servant, his faithful servant, and he shows up on a mountain, you know, in the Mount of Transfiguration. Well, if we think, if we get weird here, and I, and I, and we've talked about this actually, one of our last, our last episode with Heiser was about ghosts. It was about the spirits of humans. And then we had an episode recently with a pastor who was saying there was such things as wandering spirits, which I think is uncomfortable for a lot of Christians, because we think as soon as, as soon as this is over, it goes, you know, we go one place or the other. And there's a lot of, and there's a lot of

of evidence to suggest that sometimes it seems some don't. They get stuck. They're trapped. And could this be a tactic of the enemy to keep Moses from going on as Obi-Wan and fighting further after he dies, but he can become stronger? And if they get his body, maybe they can hinder this process. Yeah, I mean, it's possible. I probably go to the strongest evidence for me is he's Satan's trying to put his head on a pipe, man. You know, he's trying to put his head on a pike to let everybody know in the supernatural realm that Satan should be feared, that the enemy should be fear, that Yahweh is on notice. And so, yeah, I think that's part of it.

But to your point, Nate, on the deception part. So, you know, we did this entire thing on Jude 8 and 9. But there's something here that is actually incredibly important. it is typically overlooked. And it says this in verse 8, in the same way these people relying on their dreams. They're relying on their dreams. So now this gets into the question of deception. How are they relying on their dreams? How are they being deceived? And then there's a second part to this is you'll notice that Michael is unwilling for he himself to directly accuse the devil. He says the Lord rebuke you.

So there's even the sense in the supernatural realm that Michael himself is like, listen, I'm not even going to take direct offense. Like, I'm not even going to take direct accusation against you. I'm going to speak by the highest power there is. And that is the power of Yahweh. Now, what's super fascinating, we can go as deep as you guys want to or we can say this for a different episode if you want to. But the dreams here are directly connected to hallucin.

hallucinative properties and elements. I want you to think DMT, silocybin, these types, which by the way, these were present in the ancient world, the blue lotus flower, was the same flower that was found in the tombs of ancient pharaohs that the magicians would actually use to put them into hallucinative kind of trips. And it's through these types of means that the enemy is deceiving people into believing counterfeit gods. Like they're actual beings, they're actual supernatural beings, but they're using these things to be a means of counterfeit.

And so then the question is, is like, well, why should we care about this whole conflict between Moses' body and everything else? I actually think the her medical key to this is the dreams. The key to this is so that you and I are not deceived into engaging in things that the enemy is actually conniving us where we're going into a trap, essentially, you know, and we're not equipped. Like, we don't know how to process through these things.

And so Michael is super clear in how he responds to the accusation of the devil. He responds with the Lord would be acute. And so I think there's actually a bunch that's going on with these dreams, and it connects to a whole bunch of different passages. What do you think about when people do drugs like that, are they, It reminds me of a couple episodes we've done about sort of lucid dreaming, but one pastor kind of said that when you sleep, there is this sort of your trap between these worlds, you're trap between, you know, this reality. And that's why a lot of people talk about sleep

paralysis, because they're like almost out of their, in the spirit realm. And they're, they're susceptible to being attacked. So when we do psychedelics, when we do drugs, are we opening ourselves up to sort of dabble in these realms a little bit? And then, you know, think that we're getting some vision, we're hearing about what we should do. You know, because Rogan talks about these things. It's very popular now. Yeah, it was a Graham. That's

who got me all in. It was a Rogan episode with Graham. Graham Hancock. Graham Hancock. Yeah, Graham Hancock. He just did it. He recently just did another one. They're big on. Yeah, so let me, let me, okay, let's just, if we're going to go there, let's go there. Look at Jeremiah 23. Jeremiah 23,

25 through 27. Look at what Yahweh says. I've heard what the prophets, who prophesy a lie in my name have said, I had a dream. I had a dream. How long will this continue in the minds of the prophets prophesying lies, prophets of the deceit of their own minds? Through their dreams, they tell one another. They plan to cause my people to forget my name as their ancestors. Look at this ancestral language. As their ancestors forgot my name through ball worship. So there's a couple things here. One is, if you look at First Timothy 4-4-1, it says that the spirit says explicitly in the end times people are going to depart from the faith

because they pay attention to you and the language is incredibly important deceitful spirits the teachings of demons through hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared so here are the four things deceitful spirits so this is a separate category than teachings of demons so you've got spirits you've got demons you've got hypocrisy of liars the preposition through is there, which tells me that these spirits and these demons are working through folks, through individuals, and their consciences are seared. And then 1st Peter 5'8 says to be sober-minded. Okay, this is where the Greek grammar becomes important. In the letters of Paul, the Greek word methay appears in two viceless. So sober-minded is nepho. The opposite of being sober-minded is

methio. And this methio word, Greek word, means drunkenness, it means intoxication, and inebriation. It shows up in two viceless in the letters of Paul, Romans 13, and Galatians 5. And they're all associated with the works of darkness. You see, when we read this,

in church, we've always been like, oh, it's just the works of darkness. It's like arbitrary evil. Well, with a supernatural worldview, we go, there's nothing arbitrary about this. We're talking about dark forces. We're talking about malevolent spirits, you know, disembodied, disembodied spiritual beings that are after the destruction of God and his people.

And so then this is wild. The word Mateo, which is talking about intoxication, right? It was used in connection with nectar used to describe a state of mystical enthusiasm and union with the deity. So in the ancient world, in cult, temple of Dionysus, the temple of Aphrodite, I mean, the Artemis, the Arnamesian, you would go into all of these different cults. And one of the common practices for the priests and religious practices is to participate in a type of methadio, a type of drunkenness that required a type of intoxication. And this intoxication would put you into a hallucinative state so that you could commune with the deity. That's the Oracle Delphi, right?

It's this idea of all the Oracle. Which they found would be ethylene intoxication, right? Which causes hallucination. So they would put themselves in these manic trances. Yeah. Now, this gets crazy. This gets crazy, y'all. This New Testament text has an Old Testament background.

I'm a biblical theologian by trade, so I've got to do this to us. The New Testament text has an Old Testament background. You guys are going to love this Old Testament background. It's Genesis 6. It's the Book of the Watchers. It's the Nephilim. Okay, look at what's happening in Genesis 6. And by the way, the author of Jude actually quotes the book of Inok.

But in Genesis 6, Genesis 6 gives us this general idea that as a result of the Nephilim, the co-inhabitation and the union, the unholy union between the Benah el-Him, the sons of God and the daughters of man, that evil consistently spreads throughout the world. This is the background for the flood. like all of these things are going wrong because these supernatural beings have stepped out of place, right? The book of Enoch refers, it's actually the commentary to it. Now, yes, it's non-canonical, all that kind of stuff, but I think it's helpful background information, especially when it comes to some of these things that we're looking at in Jude and in First Peter about being sober-minded.

Why do we want to be sober-minded and not drunken? Look at this. Enoch refers to the Watchers. now the watchers taught humanity. This is in Enoch chapter 7, taught humanity charms, enchantments, how to cut roots, and how to work with different plants. This is what I'll read directly from the book of Enoch. It says, and they taught them charms of enchantments and the cutting of roots

and made them acquainted with plants. Verse two talks about how the women became pregnant. They bore great giants whose height was 3,000, I mean, all this stuff. And then in chapter 8, it says, And Azazel taught men how to make sword. Look at this. Taught men how to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates. And made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them in bracelets and ornaments.

And the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids and all kinds of costly stones and coloring tinctures. And then later in verse 3, it says Samhaja taught enchantments and root cutting. Another watcher taught how to resolve enchantments. another one, astrology, another one, constellations, another one, knowledge of the clouds, the signs of the earth, the signs of the sun, the course of the moon. And verse four is massive. And as men perished, they cried out and their cry went up to heaven. In those lists of words, the cutting of plants and all of those other things, right,

there are two Greek words that are being used that are incredibly important. The first one is Pharmakea. That's where we've got a word pharmacy from. What does this refer to? It refers to drugs, poisons, magic potions, and medicines. And these could have a variety of potency from simple sedation to full-on mind alteration. And the last one is the Greek word apoidia, which refers to charm potions that are created from plants. So like in that episode with Graham, the ones that I watch with Graham and Joe, like it's pretty amazing, right?

DMT and all these things that these folks are having these hallucinative trams. trips and they're meeting. They have what they're calling deity encounters or power encounters with these deities. They all kind of look the same. They're all saying kind of amazing things. And then you go back into ancient like shaman religions and a similar thing. I think Graham talked about this one story where it's like there is one shaman. He had this hallucination. And it was really hard to get like the actual ayahuasca or whatever they were doing. And so the entity basically said, hey, you should use this other compound with this other compound and mix it together. And then basically mass-produced hallucinatives.

And like the likelihood of these two compounds working together, it's like one in a trillion. I'm being exaggerating here. But it's like there's no way that some random person's going to randomly see that those two things come together. So then the question is, what is the purpose of this hallucinative? And then let me just make a very practical pastoral's kind of side note for you all.

Fentanyl and opioid abuse is off the rocker right now. It is off the rocker right now. And so why? What is this? It is a pathway, in my opinion, my humble opinion, it is a pathway for the supernatural realm, for malevolent evil spirits to deceitfully lure us into being conned and manipulated into a way of thinking and living and being that is contrary to what Yahweh would want for us. There's so many Old Testament passages, Y'all, DeR me 18, that warns us of looking up at the sun. and the stars and bowing and worship from them, warns us of omens, warns us of tarot cards. I mean, all of this kind of stuff that has become now super next, like spiritual, mystical, new agey, you know, from my vantage point as a theologian and as a New Testament scholar and Ephesians, I just be like, listen, the scriptures are very clear for believers in terms of how we are to engage or not to engage with these things.

And so, you know, I think we just got to be careful about that. Yeah, this might be a dumb thing to say, but I think a lot of people when they listen to that, they think when they think hallucinate having a hallucination, they think it's all happening in their mind. They don't think they're actually meeting these things. And I think one of the things we've discovered on our show is I tend to think that they're actually running into other deities, are actually experiencing other things. And whatever this drug is doing in their body is sort of just putting them in a frequency where they can actually communicate with these things. because it's like a harmonization.

It's like a harmonization, right? You're in different harmonies, and then all of a sudden, you harmonize where you can play on the same playing field. Yeah, and it's not just something that's happening in your mind. It's not like you're taking mushrooms

and you're seeing things that aren't there. In these situations, you're actually interacting with the same entities. Because when people take mushrooms, everyone sees all kinds of weird stuff. But when they take certain drugs, they're all having the same experience, which leads to more evidence

that they're going somewhere, I was going to some realm. I was going to say that, Nate. Like you have people with different upbrings, different cultures, different backgrounds, different places across the earth that take these drugs and have these same encounters. The idea this is all happening inside of your head, and yet all these people who, you know, whether you be in India or you're in Ireland or you're in South Africa or you're in Hawaii, wherever you are,

there's no reason that your brain would be wired and your cultural upbringing, you know, nature, nurture environment, you should have the same encounters with the same entities, right? Yeah. And what I think you said is important. I think if you ever want to look, and it's fascinating, look into how you activate DMT. And it is not something, as you just said, there's no earthly chance that someone figures that out. You have to do this and then do that, and then prep this, then make a tea. And then once you make the tea, you've got to mix it with this.

She makes it with that, then it actually the DMT. You're not getting that trial and error. I'm not going to my backyard and finding like an oak tree and a pine tree and thinking, if I just made tea and then boil these and mix these and grab something else. And I think you're spot on. Like, these are things that were taught. And they were taught. For a purpose.

By purposes and by entities didn't have our best interest in mind. And also were at enmity with God. They were in rebellion to Yahweh. So what I think, and I want to ask you this, and I don't want to take us all. but I think it's fascinating at the end of this verse, eight, says they heap abuse on celestial, on celestial beings.

That's the NIB version. What is, what are you making of that? Because I know then it goes into, and it talks about, it sort of draws Jude, the writer of Jew, because it's pseudographical, right?

It's what we believe, right? That it was probably not Jew, Jude, who wrote it, but you could correct me if I'm wrong there. But the idea that there's this whole example about arguing for Moses's body, which is a fascinating example,

but it's, Michael's not slandering, but you have this idea that, on the strength of your dreams, these people pollute their bodies, reject authority, and then it says they heap abuse on celestial beings. And you're the scholar, but how do you connect those things? Because it's like, can you connect some of those things for us? Because if we're to take this in the context of New Testament, understanding, the Greek, understanding this connects to the stuff that we just talked about in Gen 6 and

then the expose in First Enoch, then you have these sort of connected points. Yeah, I mean, I think what you're getting at, and you've already just said it, look pretty well is this idea that regardless of your position and regardless of your human reality, the holy ones are holy, they're glorious. They have some type of set apartness that is unique to them, that is given to them by God. Think about it this way. Image bearers hold innate dignity, value, and worth because we're made in the image of God. Yeah. And that image cannot be stolen from us, It can't be broken. Like I make the theological argument, the image of God is a status that is a gift really given

that requires a standard because of the fall. Our humanity is broken. Because our humanity is broken. We're unable to live up to the standard that comes with the status. So when Jesus comes and he gives us the spirit, he's actually restoring our humanity. Now, you and I both know that there are image barriers out there that are doing horrific things, right? Like they're sinning.

They're hurting people. like now what this is the tension to be played do they still right now in the middle east right on the middle east right now is that right hamas right now with that do they still bear the image of god absolutely absolutely are they intimately offending defacing the image of god with their actions absolutely so that same trajectory i think can be applied to this that these these people they're relying on their dreams they are defiling their flesh they're rejecting authority and then in doing so, they've become trite, they've become light, they've become free in order to engage with these supernatural beings however they want. And then as an example, Jude says,

look at Michael, who he himself is an archangel. And he himself, with the highest authority as an archangel, is unwilling to, to slander or to directly accuse Satan, the devil. Instead, he says, the Lord rebuke you, you know? And so I do think there's the sense that we have, we have to be aware that in the supernatural realm, there are rebellious supernatural beings. Like, they have gone into rebellion and they are going to have their judgment. This is Psalm 82. And there's actually a theologian Walter Wink who makes some of these arguments. I strongly disagree with where he landed.

He believes in the rehabilitation of the powers. I think with Psalm 82, there's just no way for any rehabilitation after they've already gone into rebellion. But there is the sense that they are still glorious ones. They're still holy ones. And so there is a way in which we're supposed to interact with them that is not trite, that is not slanderous, but is precise. And that precision is we speak to them in the authority of Christ.

We speak with the power of the resurrected Messiah. And the same way that Michael isn't like, hey, I'm Michael the archangel in your crap. Like, you don't understand anything. Like, I'm going to diminish you. Michael says, you know, what does it say here? It was disputed the devil in an argument. He did not dare utter a slanderous condemnation, but instead he said, the Lord rebuke you.

And so I think this becomes paradigmatic of how you and I should be thinking about the supernatural realm. And it should cause us to have a bit of awe and a bit of reverence and a bit of just consideration before we just jump in into practices or behaviors that could lead this into all kinds of chaos. where do you think Jude gets this information? Obviously, it's not spoken about anywhere else in scripture. And I think this is...

I think Jude's getting it from the Testament of Moses. I think so. I think he's sourcing second, second temple material. So in the Testament of Moses, there's a really interesting passage where Joshua is having an interaction with Moses. And they're basically talking on Moses's deathbed. And Joshua's like, dude, where are we going to bury you? Josh was stressed out because he recognizes if Moses dies where he is right now and he's landing in enemy territory, it's not good.

So all of those details line up much better for the Jude's source text in terms of the Testament of Moses and what's actually happening. And then in terms of where does Jude get his understanding of Michael and archangels and dreams and all these things? well, I think Genesis 6 in the book of Enoch is the background for those as well. These texts that are rolling in the back of their minds that are influencing the way that they're writing that are foreign to us now, but that would never have been foreign to them. In the same way, if I were to say today to you guys, like, hey, you guys want to go get Jimmy Johns. You'd be like, cool, let me get a roast beef sandwicher, you know, whatever.

Well, there's background text, background cultural understanding. are already going in your brain for you to make connections that you don't need a sourcing or a citation to be able to get you to that conclusion. And so I think the same thing is happening with Jude. Yeah, it's the same way, like there's hundreds of books that they all had read, right? They were well read. And the same way that, like, if I were to quote Waterworld right now, you're pretty big like, I got the smokers.

Like, you know what that's. No, but I mean, they, that's kind of tongue-in-cheek, but you love it. You love it. He's writing to a culture where the assume, the assumption is that all this is requisite knowledge. Oh, yeah, that's Enoch. Oh, yeah, that's Testament of Moses. They were well read, and that's lost on us, right? Because we haven't read these pieces.

But, you know, in the same way, if we're to, you know, I don't know what everybody's read, you know, these at Moby Dick or, you know, or Huckleberry Finn or I'm trying to think of what would be, how to kill a mockingbird. I don't know. This is more our era. I'm trying to remember what we read in school and where the red fern grows. Like, you read these and you were like, yeah, you know. Satisfest book all the dogs die at the end. I think you just identified another problem is we don't read.

I think that's what you just identified as well. there's another issue there. Agreed. I mean, yeah. Joel, I have a question. Is there a difference between the soul and the body connection pre-Christ and post-Christ that, you know, Luke kind of alluded to after Christ's death, you know, all these bodies were reunited with their souls, it seems, and they're walking around.

The dead and Christ came out of their tombs and appeared to many people. Is there something that maybe the importance of the body itself was important before we are all reclaimed. Yeah. So, I mean, absolutely. So the thing about Holy Saturday, what in the world is happening on Holy Saturday? And how do you have all these? What does it mean when the text is in this New Testament?

I'm blanking on the exact passage, but it says that Jesus went down and he preached the gospel in Hades, basically, and the gates of Hades fell off. Like, what actually is happening? Again, it goes back to that ancient Hebrew cosmology, conception, that there were these righteous dead, they were in Shiel and that were living in an afterlife entity disembodied from their earthly bodies that were now bones, but hopefully in sacred space so that they could be at peace.

And so they have their spirit life that is living in the affluent. And so there's this passage in the gospels. It's Abraham's bosom, you know, it's Lazarus and this dude. And you get this vision of there are these two areas, the depths of Hades and outside. And the one places where the sinful kind of evil go and the other places where the righteous are, they can kind of see into that to that evil spot, but they can't make it and it's like a pretty grievous kind of situation. So what does Jesus actually do? Well, Jesus on Holy Saturday, this is what I would argue. He actually goes into Hades and he actually

rips apart the gates of Hades so that the righteous dead who are waiting for the Messiah, for the anointed one to come, would then receive the gospel in Christ. And then he, he releases them and there's like a the language is like it's a march it's a royal triumphant march of all of these folks that are being let out well who are they being let out in front of the genesis six ben alohem who are left in tartarus because they had were punished for their behavior in genesis six they're watching the whole they got front row seats to this whole thing that's taking place they realized jesus has come their end is now even closer And now their companions that were in a different part of Hades, they got set free.

Right? And so now when they're set free, there is the re-embodiment of what was once just spiritual with earthly, bodily. And then it's like the story, like all these spirits and all these people, doors burst open, right? And people are freaking out. What's going on? It is an image for us in the New Testament. We get the sense that the new heavens and the new earth is an embodied experience.

Jesus in the resurrection is embodied. He has, there's physicality and spirituality that is on him. And so I think that's exactly what's taking place on Holy Saturday. And that's exactly what happens when Jesus breaks and tears down the gates of Hades. And he leads all the righteous dead free to experience, and this is Hebrews 12, the Divine Council, idea that there's a great cloud of witnesses right now with Jesus. And they're cheering us on. Are those the first fruits, you believe?

Joel. Yeah. Yeah, the first fruits of those that roast, the Parque, yeah. I think Mike is with right now. Yeah, that's right. He is, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. It just seems as there's importance of where your body goes through all these religions, right?

These, you know, we've talked to people who, they dug up these, like, marble sarcophagus where they said they put these giants in, and they would find them in these, like, perfectly. They look almost like not made here. You know, like these megalithic tombs that are like solid green marble. Like, why are they putting the bodies in these things? Is there, are they trying to send them somewhere else? There's just a massive importance put on the bones, the bones of the dead, of all people, specifically the giants, it seems, as well.

So I'm just trying to understand maybe there's some connection here that we just don't, we just don't get it. Like, we see this argument going on between these guys, and we just get this little fraction of that argument. But I love it because it is, it seems to be a little window into a, into a whole world that we just can't, we can't really, we don't really get, but we get little clues here and there that, you know, when Derek, Derek Gilbert came on, talked about the Valley of the Shadow of Death. And there's these dolmens all over the place. And what's, what are those for? You know, the same kind of concepts.

This obsession with the afterlife and the bones and bearing and ancestors. and then now we just kind of cremate bodies and throw them out to the ocean. You know, we don't really, we've completely gotten to a place as a whole-huh. I mean, I mean, this is a side note, but, you know, one of the questions I get often on my theology talk Tuesdays on Instagram is what's more biblical cremation or burial? And actually, Nate, to your point, like I would say, I think it's an open-handed issue. I think, you know, you can be, like, whatever, that's fine. But I'd say, if we're going to go with the best biblical imagery, it does seem burial is the right.

imagery because even the language in First Thessalonians when talks about the first word dead will rise up. The bones of these folks are going to rise up and to come out. And it's going to be reanimated. Now, it's not beyond Yahweh to then take the particles of the atoms that have been cremated and to bring them all back into existence. But to your point, Nate, like there does seem to be this emphasis on the body, the burial, the sacredness of the burial to make sure that there's a consecration that's taking place, that we hold these things holy, desecration, the impact of that, dealing improperly with bodies, how that in Hebrew terms or Jewish terms, it would cause defilement, things like that.

So yeah, it does seem like there is a focus there, for sure. I mean, to kind of put a, you know, a cherry on top, though, we know that Michael wins the argument, right me obviously because the bible is in specific about where Moses is buried so the but what i think is fascinating joe is that like you know you're not to like just to parse the text like you know to death but michael doesn't slander the devil he says the lord rebuke you and then that authority gives him the bones right so i i think it's so yeah what's the devil going to say? What's the devil going to say when the Lord rebuke you? The devil's like, yeah, but then you go, look, I mean, that's the final thing is just there's so much power there

too, because you go, the ultimate authority in the universe is Yahweh is in Christ, right? And Michael just says the Lord rebuk you. And in that, that claims dominion. And even though Moses dies in foreign, on enemy territory, that, territory, that territorial, that governor, if you will, or principality, prince, principality, still has no authority when it comes to the authority of Yahweh. I just, I think it's just a, it's cool because the Jew doesn't unpack that for us, but if you go to the, you found out, you can find out where Moses is buried and he's buried. No one knows, but it's between these two places. And right, as you said, and we, we talked about earlier, that's very important, you know,

cosmologically for, for Hebrews, but do fascinating, I mean, this is, I love it. This is, It feels like it's just a deeper subject because, you know, most people come on our show, they see entities in graveyards or places where these, the bones are buried. And there seems to be this connection here that I'm just trying to unpack. And then one of my last questions was, we've heard over the years that there's this connection between cutting the head off of a giant burying this skull, the place of the skull, Galgotha. And I was wondering if there's a connection where this supposedly the head of Goliath, the rumor is, was buried in this location. Is that having to do with any of this? Or is that just going on another rabbit hole? Yeah, I don't, I don't, yeah, I've never heard it.

But that's a rabbit hole. I want to, I want to chase that someday. That's a good one. Yeah. That's a good one, Nate. The way that your brain works, man, is so, so brilliant. Dude, this is, this is just classic Nate. Like, you know, into the, he just throw you,

at the very end. I'm going to throw you a softball. So it's a slider. He's throwing you a slider. And he's like, dude, here's something weird, you know, that doesn't really have. I mean, Goliath said might be there. Well, I edit all these shows, and then, you know, you see all these connections,

and I'm big picture. I'm not very good with the small stuff, but, you know, you see these similar themes throughout all these shows. And when I listen to them multiple times as I'm re-editing them, I'm always left alone. And it sucks because I'm, the guest isn't there anymore. Right. And I have this question I want to ask. And I'm like, dang it, I should ask that.

Or someone should have asked this. And you reabsorb it for another round. But I do think it's interesting. And I really appreciate it because it seems so. It reminds me of, you know, people want, take my body back. Take my body back to my father. Like, don't leave my body just out here to rot. There's an importance taking your body to a sacred space, a better place.

Yeah. And it's not just wherever I die, I die. Yeah, I mean, pay attention to how many times the patriarchs, you know, I'm just thinking even more, more deeply about Joseph. Like, he's stressed out, man. Don't leave my body with Egypt. Don't leave my body with the pharaohs. And don't leave me in enemy territory.

Right. So the reason that Rocky can't... Rocky can't die in Russia in Rocky 4, right? Right. You can't have... You got him back to Philly. You got him back to Philly. You can't be...

You got to bring him back to Philly. Yeah. It's the tragedy, which the tragedy, where does Apollo Creed die? Yeah. Where does he? Is he in the States? he's in the state He's in the States

No, he's in Russia. No, that's not Russia. No, if he dies, he dies. I guess we all have to go back to our original roots to die. I mean, where do we go? We go to Ireland somewhere, Luke? I don't know, man.

Speaking of, I went to the grave of my 10th great grandfather the time I went to Ireland. I stood before it and it was like, this is wild. So some of my, some of my, you know, my forefathers and my ancestors are there. But I, Joe, this is, This has been fun. We've been cooking this one for a while, and so it's so great to have you back.

I want everybody to, I want you to share with everybody. We talked about your book on the top. I wanted to talk about that again one more time. But also, you do so many different things. You're currently on tour, Lisa Turkhurst, doing the Provis 31 stuff. So you're speaking that. I know you're speaking at NextGen with our mutual friend Gabe, Gabe Lyons. You have theology.

Talk Tuesday. So Q&A's on Instagram. But share, kind of share where people can interact. and find you and interact in that way or they can see you on tour. And again, talk about the book and what people can do with the pre-order right now. Because I think these are all important things to get out there. Yeah.

So pretty much all of my effort and focus right now is going on Instagram. It's just my last name at M-U-D-D-A-M-A-L-E. So I'd Mutam-A-M-A-L-E. Once you start typing in those first couple letters, there's not many of us out there. So that'll pop up pretty quickly. And then I just started actually, Luke, I'm taking a, and Nate, I'm taking a stab at some YouTube stuff. And so I've got a YouTube channel that's just humble theology with Dr. Joel.

Having some conversations on theology, we actually just had a Rick Morda conversation with a friend of mine who's a dispensationalist scholar. And so we did a bunch of work talking through the complexities of Israel, Palestine, Gaza, how to think theological about that, but also pastorally with the very reality that there are Palestinian Christians right now. you know, that are brothers and sisters in Christ that we're trying to figure out how do we reconcile what does it mean to stand with Israel? But then you've got brothers and sisters who are dying, you know? And so that's a good conversation that just released. And then, yeah, just Proverbs 31 Ministries do a therapy and theology podcast, me, Lisa and Lisa's therapist, my friend Jim Kress, which is awesome. We just released season five, I think season five or six. And so that's on all the major podcast channels.

and then YouTube as well if you want to see our faces as we navigate through that. Busy guy. Busy guy. It's a lot. And whenever Nate and Luke let me come back, I make room some blurry stuff. You're the best, man. You guys. Yeah. People love it, bro. People love it. So we, we talked pre-roll about BlurryCon next fall. We'll get that lined up. We'd love to have you there if it fits your schedule. And then again, yeah, the hidden piece, right? You've got a book coming out. Oh, yeah. I forgot. You can pre-order. You wrote a book, man. You've been so much. I wrote a book. You got a book. Not March, but you can pre-order it now on Amazon.

And if you do that, you get... You get... Yeah, you actually get... You'll get the first three chapters right off the bat. And I actually think for this audience, what you guys will really love is you'll instantly get a deep dive into the origin story of Lucifer of Satan. And typically, you have to go to like three, four different passages of script

to figure what's happening. I start us in Eden with the Nakhash and then help connect all the dots for the origin story of the supernatural being. and how we get to you a final understanding, the New Testament of Lucifer. So I think that's a helpful, a helpful piece of content. Well, congratulations, man. I know writing a book is no small feat. I don't know it's hard, especially these days.

These days when everyone's got a book and everyone's written something, it's probably hard to figure out what can I say that hasn't been said. And I appreciate that. And Jude is a blurry character. And we often talk about, you know, Peter and Jude alluding to the, Book of Enoch. We get a lot of hate in our channels about talking about the book of Enoch and these things. And it's interesting that the biblical writers, especially Jude, just drops these things

that aren't found anywhere else. And you're like, where did he get that from? You got to think. And that's in the Bible. And so it's helpful because we tread in the conjecture space a lot. And we try to give context to the weird blurry stuff. So I appreciate you coming on and giving us a little bit more of that theological. mindset that, you know, oftentimes we're talking to Bigfoot experts. We don't, we don't get that.

And then I love this, too, Joel, because, like, you know, as Dr. Michael Heiserwood said, and we talked about Mike a lot, because we have that mutual connection. We and, you know, you worked, studied under him, and you, Mike became a good friend of ours through the show. And as he said, if it's weird, it matters, right? And so this is one of those weird things that I love that we're finally hitting on, like, it matters. And I think he did an amazing job of unpacking that and just sort of in. Can I just summarize? Can I just summarize white matters? Let me just summarize white matters in one big sentence because God is king and because he's king, he has cosmic space and he will never let one of his children be lost in enemy territory.

It will not happen. If you belong to him, he will grab you, bring you back to sacred space, and you will reign and rule with Christ as he sits the right hand of the father. This is why I think Jude 8 and 9 matters. It is a. clear assurance and confidence to you and I that God is king and ain't nobody going to mess with him and if nobody's going to mess with him and nobody's going to mess with us. Mike drop. Boom.

Mike, I love it. And what I wanted to say in the beginning episode was you inspired a thought of my head of a t-shirt, take Sasquatch seriously, you know? Like, you took the question serious. That's what I wanted to say. Thanks, man.

You got a seriousness to it. And I appreciate that because, you know, for what we do, a lot of times people look at it like, what big book podcast what do you guys talking about over there but um you know we take these we take all these blurry subjects seriously and it's cool to have you on again and obviously we want to keep doing it as much as you want i know you're busy but you're always welcome on the on the podcast and hopefully we'll do this live yeah you got me thinking about galite skulls so that might be the next one so thanks for let's go i got some other places where to go once we stop recording

i'll tell you what i want to do next let's do it