Blurry Creatures - EP: 214 The Goddess with Dr. Judd Burton & Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

Are there female angels? In this episode, join Dr. Judd Burton and Doug Van Dorn as they delve into the intriguing exploration of female deities and goddesses in ancient traditions, drawing connections to biblical narratives. Unravel the mysteries surrounding these powerful figures, as the hosts navigate through history, mythology, and religious texts. Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Intro Song: Dreamkid83 Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they got, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right? That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA and thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it.

I'm giving it to our two dogs. I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting rough greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy. their joints hurt less, they're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Greens really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry.

That's RUFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. So as I keep reading, this is what he says. But inasmuch as Hephaestus and Athena were of life. nature being born of the same father. That's interesting, born of the same father. And agreeing moreover, in their love of wisdom and of craftsmanship, they both took for their joint portion this land, Greece, as being naturally congenial and adapted for virtue and wisdom. And so here you have Plato, like, loving the fact that the Greeks are all wise and everything. And he explains it by the fact

that Hephaestus and Athena are the gods that were allotted to Greece. Now, why is that matter? Because Athena is a woman. And if this is the same worldview that we find in Deuteroni 32, then here you have, and it's obviously not biblical, but you have clear proof that in very early days, they were considering that the sons of God also had females that were a part of the story. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get a I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Hey, welcome back to blurry creatures. Happy New Year. Glad to have you guys with us. embarking on our fourth year as a podcast.

Thank you guys so much for all the support you've given us over the years. Today we are on episode with Doug Van Dorn and Dr. Jed Burton on the goddess, the female deities that are in ancient history and in the Bible. I try to make sense of that. Oftentimes people say some pretty black and white statements in regards to angels and deities. So we're going to unpack that. And just want to let you know that there are a few VIP tickets left to our Costa

Rica trip at the end of the month. And Joel Mudamale is going to be a special guest along with Tim Alvarino. So if you want to get tickets to that, head to our website. We'll throw a little flyer on there for you. And you can still make it. Thank you so much of the members who support the show, week in and week out and help us do this and produce this podcast. And we couldn't do without you.

And we're forever grateful. We have a lot more content lined up and some events coming up this year. So stay tuned. And let's get Doug and Judd on this one. Let's get started. Welcome back to the podcast, Doug and Judd. You know, Luke, it's actually pretty hard to say those two names together. If you try it five times, you're going to screw it up.

Jug, Jug and Judd. It's like an ancient chimera of names. And you think we'd get it right. You guys are, you know, some of our oldest friends in this space. We're grateful to have you on. You've been on a number of episodes. You guys took chances on us when we were just getting started. And we're going to be forever grateful for that.

Or never take chances, Lou. Yeah, thanks. And I think you're going to be taking the chance on us, you guys. That's right. We are. But it's great to have you guys. Good to have it back. One of our biggest episodes and most popular episodes is the demonology episode where you guys teamed up.

And, of course, you both have been on multiple times, some of our most frequent guests on blurry creatures. So the illustrious Doug Van Dorn, brand new website, illustrious Doug Van Dorn. And the man who needs no introduction, Dr. Jed Burton and his dulcet tones from down in. Merkle, Texas, great to have you back. This is going to be a fun one. We made jokes the first time we recorded this about it being a sequel. Now we're part three. It's the trilogy, right?

This is the Rumble in the Jungle. This is Marty and Doc Brown in the old west. Unfortunately for our audience, they didn't hear the second one. It was really good. Sorry. Sorry about that. He's happened. But here we are.

We're all here. We shot the movie. We need to replace the actor. There's a back-of-the-fut joke in there somewhere. There's deja vu going on somewhere here. Right? I mean, if we're the Rocky series, this is the Clubber Lang episode, right? We're right before he goes to Russia. Well, we can start this one out and talk about how this episode kind of came about.

Now that we're friends, we kind of text each other, and we have these conversations going. And you guys kind of hit us up and said, you know, we have this idea of doing a topic about the goddess and sort of female deities. And what does that mean? What's the overall conversation we can have there? and the church is sort of opposed to it. Most Christians are still on the fence that if there were male angels that could mate with females,

that there are any female angels at all. You know, so we have a lot to unpack in this episode, so you guys wanted to do a whole episode on this. So are there female angels and deities, Luke? What do you think? Well, we know from the historic record, and I'm going to let the experts talk on this, but we know that as far back as you go,

there are in the Sumerians and Babylonians to the Canaanite religion, which of course was adjacent to ancient Israel, which would have been the authors of the Old Testament, where Moses would have bumped into the Canaanites a lot. In fact, they bumped into them and took their land, right? So they had at least three major goddesses in that religion. And, you know, one we're to know we're going to talk about tonight, especially because I think what's fascinating about discussing what we consider be the old gods or the pantheons of gods and relating to the sons of gods that we find the biblical narrative is that there's a lot of crossover.

as we've talked about in the show with both of you gentlemen, about the pantheons of gods and how they are related and renamed as you go from civilization to civilization. And a lot of our show deals with, you know, a lot of what we consider be the Divine Counsel worldview, you know, really popularized by Dr. Michael Heiser,

but, you know, ancient, not a new thing, right? I mean, but the idea that the sons of God mentioned multiple times in the Bible, we're involved in the Gen 6 incident, if we want to call it. That sounds like a punk band, the Gen 6 incident. maybe it's one that needs to happen.

But, you know, they stood for joy at the creation of the earth, according to Job, and then among the dividing of the nations, Deutormor 32, they were allotted, post-flood, they were, some of these sons of God were allotted, governorship or dominion over the nations that had turned their back on Yahweh. So we have these characters, right? And within these characters, we have some interesting, interesting things that they go on it. And so I'm very excited about this episode, what we like to do on Blurry Creatures. if you're listening for the first time.

And if you're not, this is just a reminder. We'd like to have discussions about things that we believe should be discussed and, um, you know, thought exercises and just and, and, and stretch ourselves to think about and look at the scriptures and what maybe what the scriptures, not maybe, but actually what the scriptures say and what they said originally, you know, and what, what the, you know, the, the authorship's intent was. Um, and also their cultural and environmental, you know, background in that space. And so enough from Luke Rogers.

Welcome to show, Doug Van Dorn, Dr. Jed Burton. What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Ten minutes in. I'm kidding. You guys have given your thoughts. Where do you want to start, Doug? Well, you just said that the whole idea of a thought exercise. And in some ways, that's kind of what this is going to be.

Not completely, but to some degree. This idea came to my mind because I've had so many people that, for one reason or another, will say that, you know, the Bible only talks about male angels. And so therefore, they conclude that there's no such thing as female angels. And, you know, so that gets into what is an angel? There's only one class of angels. Just because the Bible says that there's only male, it only supposedly mentions male angels.

Does that mean that the negative is it you can infer that that there are no females just because it doesn't mention them? So a lot of things going on here. And, you know, when Jed and I were talking about this, we thought it might be better to go from the more concrete to the more speculative. So kind of maybe begin by just mentioning a couple of demonic entities that are female that are in the Bible. And, you know, you could almost say that the Bible only mentions male giants. And so because it only mentions male giants, does that mean that there's no female giants? And that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?

because these are creatures that the women are giving birth to and to think that there's only, they're only giving birth to male giants. It doesn't make any sense at all. So, of course, we would expect to find female demonic entities. And we do find a couple of those. One of them is in the strange list. I think we talked about it in the very first show that Jud and I did together in Isaiah 34. And you find them in Micah, Chapter 1. They're called the Daughters of the Ostrich.

which is really bizarre. Nobody really knows what they are. But the Septuagint translates that as a siren. So the little mermaid, they're not usually dudes, right? You know, these are like demonic entities in the sense that they're half-breed, angelic creature, and probably animal of some kind. And you guys have talked about that at a time. I think we've talked about that too. There's another one in Zechariah 5 that actually has two.

creatures. Zechariah 5 starts off by talking about this leaden cover that is lifted and there's a woman sitting in a basket. And then it says that she is wickedness. And so she's thrust up back into the basket. And then they put the lead weight back on it so she can't get out. Well, this story is very much like the story of Pandora in Greek mythology. It's got differences. You know, in that story, the gods are the one that made Pandora, each of the Olympians, kind of adding something to her aspect. But, you know, here, God is the one who's completely sovereign over it. But nevertheless, it's a Pandora-like figure. That's female. And she's called a woman. She's called wickedness, which reminds us of kind of the horror of Babylon in Revelation, actually. But then just a verse later,

it mentions these two creatures that almost nobody really even knows they're there. It says, I lifted my eyes and saw and behold two women coming forward. The wind was in their wings. So these probably aren't demonic entities. There's some sort of heavenly creatures. They have wings. So we often think of angels like that. Even if it's just metaphorical, they're flying around as messengers. And what are they doing? They had wings like the wings of a stork. They lifted the basket between heaven and earth. And then they carried off to Babylon where wickedness will be unloaded on the Babylonians. So here we actually do, I think, have mention of female angels. They're called stork women. And for whatever reason, they're just never really talked about. And then you have a fourth one worth mentioning. She's also found in Isaiah 34 with the sirens. She's the lilith. Judd could talk a lot about the lilith. She's like this vampiric creature, this hag, night hag that steals babies and all kinds of horrible things. She's kind of a cross. over between a demon and also a god because she's found in later Jewish mythology in the story of

Adam and Eve as the one who I think the mother of Kane or something like that. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big white. wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Get a simple bill. And that's where MintMobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what

the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number. Get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up Blurray every day, giving us the scoop on what's going on in the academic world and the ancient world on Mitt Mobile. Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Mintmobles for you.

Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price. plan options available taxes and fees extra cement mobile for details yeah she refuses to take the submissive position to adam that's part of her notoriety which is why lilith has become such a symbol of feminism leila you know the song leila yeah yeah i mean that's clapton that's just the same name as lilith so uh she's made her way into pop culture wow i was thinking of a strange brew by cream would be

apropos as well because she's a witch show trouble in electric blue in her own mad mind she's in love with you with there it is he said you were going to drop it on us

and you did that way earlier you did you did it really as long as they're making references I think of Billy Madison when they leave the they like to poop on fire on the porch and he and he says don't tell me my business devil woman it's poop again I want you to sing Rayan from Stevie Nicks next, bro.

That would be awesome. Yeah. I mean, how would angels reproduce if they didn't do it like we, they didn't have children like we do? Wow. How would there be more angels? Yeah, so this is the speculative question, right? And we want to kind of start with the idea that, first of all, they're just simply are female creatures that fit the bill. Yeah, you're jumping ahead, Nate.

Sorry. I like to jump ahead. I mean, that is, that's really the question that started this whole thing for me. Reason why I pitched it to Judd and then want to get on here. We'll talk, we'll talk and think a lot about that. But just to kind of lay the foundation, if people can get it in their minds that, yeah, there's historic women in Zechariah 5 and they're angelic creatures, that kind of shuts the door on this idea that there are no women angels in the first place. So now you kind of have to deal with that with the bigger question of how could it happen? and that's where you can start to speculate.

But if people don't have it in their minds at the very beginning that there are or could be female angels, then the discussion just never can get off the ground. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of where my mind starts. My mind in this conversation kind of starts Adam and Eve and why God created the female. Like, we could talk about that a little bit. What does the female say about God, you know? Is Adam able to, is he created with the ability to reproduce before she's created? There's a lot of weird questions that can pop up around, I think for Christians, it's just these two different things.

We're so opposite, but we're so attracted to each other. And what does that say about God, you know? And one thing we talk about a lot about our show is how everything that, how Earth mirrors heaven, you know, heaven on earth. And there's, there's similarities here. So I think we could talk about a lot of those things. I don't know. I'm not up on my Greek history, so it's hard to, when you guys rattle up all these names,

it's like a lot of stuff I don't know, but it is fascinating to think that there are so many female deities, you know, we were talking about last night, Jezebel, you know, we could probably talk about, there's just all these names that just like in our language, but we don't even, you don't even think about it. Well, I think you're big an interesting point, Doug, when you talk about the demonic, right? I mean, I know that the demonic's, you know, MO is fear and deception, but if we're to biblically understand the demonic. We talked about this in the demonology episode with you both, is that they are the disembodied spirits, the Nephilim, right, or the giants. And then that you

have demonic entities that appear or present, if you will, you know, if you want to sort of table this or catch this, present as feminine, then you sort of have an issue there, too, unless they're just pretending. I mean, you could always go there and like, you could write it off and that's kind of a knee-jerk reaction, but what if they're not pretending? And what, for the reason we have these demonic entities that present themselves as feminine is because they were at one point, well, embodied in a woman. There is a swath of material to draw on from there. The literature that we get from both the dark ages and the corners of Europe that were

literate and the medieval literature talk about the incubus and the succubus, these demons that would very much in the pattern of a lilith would, because Lilith also drained the virility out of men, was another one of her atrobus. But these, of course, are personalities that are reflected in the gods, gods and demons of even classical antiquity and even farther back than that. This sort of idea is laden. It's prehistoric, in fact. These ideas have been around quite some time, not only just in the religious ideation of humanity, but also in the real experiences that people are having with these entities. So you've got a kind of, at least in the corpus of our focal and our mythology, and indeed the text record, the historical record.

We have accounts of people's experiences with these entities from the unseen realm, as it were. The fact that there's such a recurrence, you know, just outside of a strictly theological conversation or a conversation just looking at this, through the lens of the Bible should be enough cause for for pause on one hand. But when you, when you walk it through the divine council worldview biblical perspective,

then it does become a question that's worth consideration, which is why we're talking about it right now. I think it's an unnecessary and quite frankly overdue conversation, which is why Doug and I have been talking about it for, you know, a while and we pitched it to you guys yeah so judd um when you hear these four creatures that i

mentioned like do we do we do we have any reason to think that there anything other than women not getting to the goddess at this point but just these these creatures yeah not really i mean not just the biblical tradition but the you know we could even generalize it as the uh the ancient near eastern uh perspective of all this lilith she should shows up all over the ancient Near East, Lillito and Mesopotamian mythology. So it's clear to an ancient near eastern audience that she's a female, and that certainly seems to be pretty explicit in the Old Testament references to Lelit, as it were. So I would say that in the list of entities that you rounded off there, I don't think that there's

much, that there's a much wiggle room there. They are female. they are feminine. And using the septuagin as a kind of clarifying lens for the stork women is really interesting because you noted that the rendering in the septuagint is siren. Well, that's the, yeah, that's the daughters of the ostrich. But yeah, they're the sirens. Yeah, right, the daughters of the ostrichs, exactly.

I was thinking, for some reason I was thinking stork women. But yeah, we get that sort of clarification when we look at these kinds of things to the septuagin, whether they're giants or any other kinds of. blurry creatures. Hey. The Seugen is such a valuable tool because you've got these the rabbis that worked

on this thing in the 3rd and 2nd century BC were Jewish but they were abundantly familiar. They were Hellenized Jews. They were abundantly familiar with the Greek culture, the nuances of the language, the mythology, so they knew the exact Greek analog to use.

So I would say that that's a strong mark for verification that those entities are in fact female. You know, before moving on, Judd, you showed me, you sent me to a video like right when I first met you. It's this crazy insane video. I don't know if you guys have seen or not, but it takes place in the desert somewhere in the Middle East. And these guys come to this, come up to this creature in the middle of the night with their

car lights on it. And this, it's like, it looked, the creature is very clearly a woman and some sort of a crazy night hag and she's like it's like she's glowing in the dark like she's she's not really there it's the strangest thing you've ever seen and it kind of reminds me of the idea of a lilith of a night hag and there's no question that that looking at that figure that it's anything other than a woman yeah and that that whole uh i'm trying to remember that guy's name that that does that but he's kind of a paranormal investigator in in the middle east but he did another video where he he found a a male witch who was living in a similar kind of conclusion he actually talked with this thing

and he asked he was looked like he was kind of scarred or burned and the fellow asked him what happened here and he said that the gin did this to me as the they referred to the demons referred to in his tradition but that i didn't waste any time and sending that first video to Doug, because I knew it would catch his eye and maybe disturb him a little too. It's completely crazy. I like what we're starting, though, because I think it's so important as you started saying, Doug, that we create the parameters around this thought exercise and we ground it in the scripture.

And what we're talking about is these entities that are mentioned in the Bible. And we've talked about this with Tim Albrino a bit too, right? Very pragmatic me. And I like talking about this because I think it's important because I think that a lot of people will knee jerk in the church, especially. not to bang on the church at all, but I think there's this medieval thinking, as Judd would say,

that we have this visceral knee-jerk reaction that says that the angels just took the form of men. And so then they got all of the equipment they needed, and because of that, they were able to do what they do. But men and women don't create giants, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless you're shocked parents, right?

I mean, kind of talked about that. And the first episode is just like, okay, so let's throw that out there, right? And I think you're right, Luke. I think that we're constantly up against half of sort of mainstream Christianity that just doesn't want to accept any of these weird narratives because they just think that the Bible is sort of given you everything, like an encyclopedia, and we know all this stuff.

But if an angel took on a human form, yeah, then they would have a human's genetics. And you don't. You have angelic genetics, which creates this hybrids, and that's where the demigods come from. and the nephalum and the giants and all these other, however you look at that, that sounds more fantastical to me than there are angels and they're created a certain way and they have a biology and they do what they do, then they can just be these magical shapeshifters. You know, like, that sounds more crazy to me than, but they say that we're the crazy ones, right?

You know, it's like, you believe they're magical shapeshifters. I just believe they're like a more advanced human, you know? You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

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day. Or we create a little lower. Doug, walk us through this because I know you've got a very good progression as you will. And I think you call this the poof theory. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's important because I think talking through this because you hear this. If you start to listen for it, you hear it. It's like, well, they just took on the form of men.

They took on. But if we look at the biblical narrative, that doesn't really make a lot of sense. We talk about Sodom. We talk about a lot of other things. in the context of the angelic race. Yeah, so this is a very common thing to hear people say that angels in the Old Testament took the form of humans. And so there's two things that went on. First, it's like what Nate just said, they took the form.

So in other words, they weren't that somehow on the other realm. It's just kind of a shell or a husk that they put on, like a mask or something. They're not really that. And then the second thing is that people think that they're human, but in fact, they're not human, not technically. So Hebrew has two words that we translate into English as the word man. One is the word Adam, and that word is only used of human beings. It's never, ever used of angels. The second word is the word eish, and eish is used of humans, but it's also used of angels.

So somehow we don't share Adam, but we share eish. And Eish is also a man. So when the three angels come to Abraham in Genesis 18, Abraham instantly recognizes who they are. They don't even have to say anything. And the question is, well, why? Well, if you go and read so to Pygrapher, and you can take any stock in it at all, maybe you can't, but maybe you can. And Dead Sea Scrolls, well, they didn't look exactly like us. They looked humanoid, but they didn't look exactly human.

Like their flesh is a little different. they're a bit taller. You know, they usually describes like eight feet tall or something like that, which kind of explains the Nephilim actually to some degree. You know, they're, what you guys talk about is the Nordics, that kind of stuff. Yes. You know, kind of reptilian, slightly reptilian skin features.

They're just not quite us. So they would be recognized. Just tall Brad Pitt's. Yeah, just walking around. Great, great, great lettuce, good hair, you know, shiny skin. Is that a snake pine? Is that a viper fun, Brad Pitt? Hey, look at you, man.

We do this in our text threads all the time. People are privy to that. We love puns. We do love puns. Now, but Doug, you wrote a book on this, the angel of the Lord. Yeah, the angel of the Lord. And I want to plug it right now because you won't. But it's a great book.

And so I love that you're going to sort of give an expose on this because I think it's important because what we're doing is going back into the scripture and saying, you know, people knew these weren't people. Yeah. So, walking around. One of those guys that comes to Abraham is the angel of the Lord. He's actually just called the Lord or Yahweh in the text most of the time. But he's the angel of the Lord.

He goes and he has his feet washed and he eats with Adam, just says the other two angels do. And then as a story progresses, he stays behind and has a bartering discussion over how many people would it take to not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And Abraham loses. Meanwhile, the other two angels, they go to Sophor. bottom. At first, they're called angels. And then later in the story, they're called men. And this is where

the men of the city want to have sex with the men who just came in. And those men are these angelic creatures. So that, just like the Genesis 6 story does, that very strongly implies that they have the genetics. Whatever we want to say. They have the biology as men. That's what they are. And, you know, So one other thing about the angel, getting to the poof theory idea, is that people somehow think that when angels come here, like I said, they take on some form. But when they go to the other side, they're like something utterly different. I don't know what they think they are, just of vapors of cloud or something. I don't know. But that's not the case.

Like, there's a divine counsel over there. And they hold counsel in the heavenly realms. And they're embodied in some kind of a place. how are we think about it. It's not like then the angel the Lord comes here or any of these other angels that when they leave, they just cease to exist as angels. This is what they are. This is their nature.

So, you know, I think that's quite important to see that it's not just a projection that they're putting onto this world. This is an overall discussion that we have on most of these subjects, that there's a physicality to all of the, the sort of the woo supernatural spiritual things you know a lot of Christians have this problem guys where they think that anything they don't understand is it is a spiritual deception right so aliens and alien craft are all just demonic stuff it's it's it's just i can't put that into my mind and i see this one amongst half the church is that they couldn't put it in practical

terms angels are like humans they're they're close to us we can tell that they're not not like us, but maybe if you didn't look close enough, you wouldn't be able to tell. Why do we have craft? Why do we have physical bodies? Why? We talk about Sasquatch and clearly they have families, you know? We have an episode coming out this week where a little girl saw kids and two parents stealing chickens, right? And we hear these stories.

So all the woo seems to physically manifest, at least in our realm. And then I think Christians think that it just sort of evaporates and disappears or becomes, you know, not physical when it just, when it leaves our, I guess, our realm or they call it dimensional. And I guess that's just, we run into this problem all the time. You know, one of the questions I propose to Tim is, why are they building the megaliths down here? Are they emulating something that they know in their world? Are they trying to build structures in the golden age that replicate maybe what the structures are in the heavenly realm, right? And in the book of Enoch, they come down here and they teach us all this knowledge. Where do they get it from?

How do they know how to do all these things? Well, they have a physical realm where they're building stuff because they teach us metallurgy and herbology. And they teach us the women how to beautify themselves with colors and smoky eyes. Smok. So there is another kingdom where it seems very similar to our world and what goes on here. Maybe we just have like, we're the 8-bit version. They're the Nintendo 64. We're a little lower than the Angels.

Yeah, not like what we were saying, we're the 8-bits. Yeah. No, but I think it's interesting to Doug's point, right, they do a lot of, they do the things we do. They eat, they walk. And I think when you're talking about trying to conceptualize something's ethereal, right, That's really what they're saying, that you know, you have the old Daniel 10th thing episode where it's held up, this, this angel's held up by the Prince of Persia. They have to walk into Sodom. They show, they show up and they eat and they do physical things that require sort of a physicality. The prophet opens the guy's eyes so that he can see all the chariots all around him of the angelic realm.

You know, the manna is called the food of angels. Physical is probably the right adjective to use, but that's not to say that the physics of where, they're from are completely identical. Right. Right. Yes. Very much. Thank you, Judge. Yes. 100%. Well, we proposed on a recent episode that the technology they possess is also

a frequency that they operate at, you know, because we talk all the time when these UFOs are powered up, they disappear because maybe they're vibrating at a frequency that we just can't detect. And a lot of this stuff we can't detect. So it might not that there be

there are things right, there could be things right in front you, there could be a Sasquatch right in front you, there could be a UFO right in front you, but it's, it's, the technology is it's vibrating at a, at a frequency we cannot detect. What I'm trying to say is, is that we're limited maybe at the fall, we can't see this realm anymore. Like, we, we, we used to walk with God, and then we lost it. We like downgraded, and now we can only see so many, there's so much behind the veil that we can't perceive, but we used to be able to perceive that. So we can't project our thoughts in other people we can receive. Many people have been communicated with entities right into their minds.

So it seems like we, we downgraded, but we were in the garden very much like the other beings in the garden. And so I think it all makes sense because so many people are scratching their heads about, do we actually have UFO craft? Are they actually building spaceships, flying them around? Are these chariots in the Old Testament maybe related to these UFOs? Is that what they describe them as? Are these alien bodies actually real? Are they fake? But it seems that we have whistleblowers saying,

nope, we have the physical craft. We have the bodies. And it's really hard for Christians to wrap their mind around these concepts. And specifically, Genesis 6. So I know we're kind of kicking a horse here, but I think it's just, I don't know what is the hang up in people's minds

that that realm can't be like ours. ours is completely unique and they have to completely transform to be in our realm. Well, I know that you brought Sasquatch in twice now into a biblical angelic goddess episode. So you're almost at your quota. You know what? Yeah. I'm proud of you. It's good.

Maybe one of the problems people have is that, you know, when we die, our bodies go to the ground. And, you know, so then we're spirits, whatever that means. And then we think about the resurrection. And we know that we're going to be given glorified bodies as believers. And somehow that's different than what it's going to be in this intermediate state. But it's like you still have to try and conceive of that intermediate state. And I'm not one of these guys who thinks that it's just some sort of soul sleep that there's nothing at all happening until you receive your glorified body. So you have to conceive it in some way.

So I think Judd's right. Physical is an okay word, but spiritual is also a word that is important to use there too. And the fact of the matter is we just don't know. And we're trying to use, you know, we're trying to use modern technology, scientific language to try and understand it. And I think that that's actually can be quite helpful. But the fact of the matter is it is a little bit different than what we have down here. But nevertheless, there's an overlap.

Yeah. Jesus has a resurrected body. It went somewhere. It didn't poof out of existence. Clearly, conceptually, I mean, just it's a place that has its own politics, its own order. It's described as a kingdom. There's a divine counsel. There's, you know, so, I mean, these are concepts that, that have embedded themselves in our earliest languages, basically.

And so, you know, clearly the entire revelation of the Bible for Genesis to the book of revelation wouldn't have been given without those points of connectivity, without those similarities. So in a way we, well, it is the way to think of them. They're perfected ideals in a way that Plato could not have even dreamed of when talking about ideals in Greek philosophy. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue.

Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. Yeah, there are similarities, but there are these perfected, you know, states of those kinds of concepts. And we use them in language today without even thinking about them, you know, certainly within the church, but even in everyday language. Is it possible to talk about the book of Enoch and the knowledge that we were imparted and work backwards? you know, if they taught us to make knives and shields, that means there's war, right?

I think that's, I think that's quite rational, yeah. I agree. You know, they taught us cutting of plants, so that means there's plants growing somewhere else, right? Well, you're making bread, right? That's the idea of mana. Well, here's an interesting one because they also taught the smiting of the fetus in the womb. Wow. Bro.

Yeah. As whole as it requires to be pregnancy. Well, but I mean, and those are, you know, one could be seen, you know, the cutting of roots could be seen as herbal medicine. But Doug's example, that's a perversion of medical, so that you've got practical, applicable sciences, but you also see perversions of those ideas and what the watchers are teaching to humanity in the Genesis 6 episode. So I think what we're really getting out of here is, you know, with all of this is that ultimately, Genesis 6, they reproduce. So if they have if they have some sort of physicality Different overlap with what we are

It's compatible And it's sort of it seems a little bit From our discussion and just really looking at this It seems a little silly to think that it's just a A poof taking the form of right So if they're compatible and if they have the Biology as you said Doug Then the implications would be that there

Potentially is reproduction and this is all thought exercise Of course but the idea there is reproduction Or reproductive abilities in in heaven Which would then be who there be female angels right? And eventually we're going to get to the goddess. And that's the point. I think this is a perfect place to do it. Yeah. So let me set this up with the Genesis 6 story and something that I found many years ago

written by Plato since the judges brought him up. It's such an interesting thing because as early as Justin Martyr, there was beliefs that Plato actually came into contact somehow, whether it's through his ancestor or so long or whatever with the writings of Moses. And so he's writing in Cretaceous and he's talking about Atlantis, kind of giving the overall story there. And he talks about concerning the allotments of the gods that they portioned out to the whole earth by just allotments. They each received his own and they settled in their countries. And he's talking about the gods in other regions, other gods had their allotments and ordered their affairs.

So like that language is straight up Deuteronomy 32-7. I mean, it's plagiarized Moses. There's nothing else you can say. There's one of those texts that I guarantee that the fathers were like, yeah, Plato somehow he came into contact with Deuteronomy or something like that because it's just absolutely too close. But that shows you that we're talking about the same thing then here in Plato that we're talking about in Genesis, which is actually a pretty good argument that Genesis 6 is what

we're saying and it's not the Sethite thing because this is this whole thing presupposes that the angel women Nephilim thing is true. When you come to Deuteronomy 32A and the sons of God, like that whole thing, pre-supposed Genesis 6, which is why, and the rabbis knew it, which is why they changed the sons of God to the sons of Israel in their text.

Because they didn't want any of this to be true. So as I keep reading, this is what he says, but inasmuch as Hephaestus and Athena were of like nature, being born of the same father. That's interesting, born of the same father. and agreeing moreover in their love of wisdom and of craftsmanship, they both took for their joint

portion this land, Greece, as being naturally congenial and adapted for virtue and wisdom. And so here you have Plato, like, loving the fact that the Greeks are all wise and everything. And he explains it by the fact that Hephaestus and Athena are the gods that were allotted to Greece. Now, why is that matter? Because Athena is a woman. And if this is the same worldview that we find in Deuteron 32, then here you have, and it's obviously not biblical, but you have clear proof that in very early days, they were considering that the sons of God also had females that were a part of the story. Now, we'll get to in a minute why the Bible really only talks about the sons of God. But I think to get to that, it's important. And what I want to do here, Judd, is just kind of introduce a couple of characters and then just have you riff as long as you want. on it on it. So I don't know why this skips people's attention, but one of the main deities in the Old Testament is Asherah. And she's the consort of Elle, who's the father of the divine counsel.

So she's actually the one who gives birth to the 70 sons. What's even stranger is that when Elle kind of is out of the picture, Baal ends up taking her as his consort. So there's a, you know, Ashera is this huge, huge problem in Israelite worship. And there's, There's a second one I want to bring up, which is Artemis of the Ephesians. And this is also called Diana. In the book of, she doesn't show up by name in Ephesians, the letter, but in the book, in the book of Acts, she shows up because when Paul goes there, there's this whole riot that has caused the people to say that, you know, you're destroying the temple of Artemis of the Ephesian, destroying her worship. So it just so happens that this, this goddess had this insane temple.

Ephesus, that was actually one of the seven wonders of the world. It was known everywhere. It was this amazing temple. So the reason I bring this up is because in Ephesus and Ephesians, when we get to that really important passage in Ephesians 6, where Paul says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but in some powers and principalities in the heavenly places, if you were at Ephesus, the first thing, not the last, but the first thing that would to come into your mind is Artemis, the goddess. Because that's what that town was all about. That's who they worship.

Her worship was so all-encompassing, not only in Ephesus, but surrounding that some have said that her worship was second only to Zeus himself. She was a big deal. And she's a woman. And Asthma is a woman. And he's the goddesses. And they're in the Bible. And we need to deal with it.

So, okay. So we knew there were demigods. there were obviously females. I mean, what's the difference between a goddess and maybe a female nephalum? Yeah, so these are the, these would be the equivalent of the sons of God. These would be the parents of the nephaline. Okay. Which is why I brought up the Plato thing, because in Deuteronomy 32-7 and 8, it's the sons of God who are allotted to the nations. And the Bible only talks about the males, but here we have Plato talking about a female equivalent. If you go to, I think the Greek counterpart to the 70 sons of God,

it's really the 12 Olympians of the Pantheon. And those Olympians are six guys and six girls. And they pair off and they have children in the myths. Sometimes they produce children asexually, which is really weird. Sometimes they produce them biologically, though. And that's all kind of stuff we can get into. But I'm sure Judd probably has a ton of stuff to say here.

Well, yeah, I think the clear analog is that the Olympians are, I tend to think that they're kind of the mid and lower ranking sons of God, whereas you had the kind of higher ranking sons of God like Shriza and Azazel. These would have been your Titans. But Doug also brought up something really interesting the other day about a potential explanation for some of the demigods and perhaps even the gods just below the Olympians,

being a result of a second incursion of the sons of God, which isn't necessarily explicated anywhere, but it's sort of implied because you have John's after the flood too, right? We and both the ancient audience were already sort of familiar with how that worked. You know, there's a divine component there. There's divine pedigree, angelic category. We do have the Greeks who talk about, you know, the whole titanomache, where Zeus puts Kronos into Tataris.

Right. And then that's exactly what Peter's talking about in Second Peter, when he talks about the angels that are thrown into Tataris. It's the exact same story. So if that's the case, and in Greek mythology, you have the Titans would have been the equivalent of the sons of God before the flood. Then at least their conception of it is that the Olympians were the sons of God that were after the flood. After the flood.

And so that actually really does explain a kind of a second incursion, whether or not that's true or not. I mean, it's a Greek thing. So it is what it is. But nevertheless, it still is and you have to deal with it. Yeah. I mean, it also lines up with Deutormac 32-7, right? It's not a big jump to think that these rebellious sons of God that have governorship over the nations, then do the same thing that the watchers did and they procreate. I mean, we find that in mythology, right? Yeah, and Plato is actually saying that some of the Olympians were put over Greece. Not the Titans. I mean, and so that also fits after the flood. That's exactly that Moses is talking about. Do you think that a lot of these cultures, you know, because like when you watch ancient apocalypse, for example, one of his opening scenes is just talking about how all these cultures have the same stories.

You know, like they all talk about a flood narrative. They all have these similar themes. Yeah, exactly. it's interesting to me that a Christian apologist will have no problem going to comparative religion and saying, hey, look, there's 400 flood myths all over the world. That helps you see that the Bible's not making this up. But then when you try and do that with what we're doing here, they're like, you can't do that. Yeah, that's off limits. And it's ironic, too, because the flood myth, it is presenting, you know, as part of its, you know, literary and mythological baggage is. it's got all the divine counsel stuff. It's got all the giant stuff. It's got the worldwide flood. It's the myth that ties all of that together. And so it's broadly applicable. That's one of the ironies of it. I agree with you, Doug. And, you know, we could probably spin off five or six other shows just on that topic alone about how, you know, comparative religion and mythology get brought into the discussion of floodmust. But boy, you venture past those.

boundaries and you're in you're in some muddy water i would say on the same note too guys like when you go back into civilization right ducat sumaria the original the original the oldest civilization right you have these very important goddesses right you ashura who ends up who was in the bible and astarte and anath right that's oh that's it's canaanite and then in sumeria you have inanna and ishtar and ishtar ends up in space in the bible then you and then in egyptian you have ice What I think is fascinating is in the oldest civilizations, and we know that God divided the nations, right, among the sons of God. And we're going to talk about that in a bit about how that doesn't necessarily mean all sons, I would believe is what we're going with that. But in each of these very, very ancient civilizations, their deities by and large include the feminine.

And then we find some of these characters in the Bible. And we know, as we talked about, that in the mosaic books, that Israel is geopolitically and very much geography-wise adjacent to a lot of these religions. In fact, they end up worshipping some of these gods, right, when they turn their back on Yahweh. And some of these gods are, we talked about, L, and Bail, and then, of course, you have Asherah, and you have Inana, and you have these gods that we would assume to be, if you want to take, and this is a thought of exercise, but you want to take, you know, a very good hypothesis. You say these were some of those that were given the allotment of the nations.

That would make sense to me, especially when we go all the way back to Gen 6 and say, they reproduced. I mean, this is where I want to hammer this home. They reproduced, right? And so unless we buy the poof theory, then they had to be able to do things in order to omit to procreate. You're right that it's old, but much older than that. It's much older than that.

We're talking about prehistoric civilization, early, early Neolithic civilization that predates even the Samarians, going back to places like Chattal Hayuk and Natufian, Jericho, you know, in the 10th millennium v.C and go back in Kepa, Kephyr-Hen-Tepi.

Rina's a Villendorf statue that has found literally all over Eurasia. This statue of the divine feminine, the she's depicted faceless, whether with

large breasts, is pregnant. And so this idea of the mother goddess that those statues date to as early as between 30,000 and 20,000 BC. So those female entities interacting with humanity, and that makes it, you know, another difficulty of this and this thought exercise is putting some sort of concrete chronology as to, you know, where the precedents are, you know, when did these experiences start happening? They're quite archaic. I think the reason we've started this podcast and the reason we got into these topics is because, you know, when you have this hierarchy of characters, then you begin to understand the biblical story more, right? And Luke and I have uncovered so many different creatures. I mean, it just expands. The list gets longer every day. So I think what we're talking about is, to me, it's, I want to have the bigger discussion, which is, I think we have a weird view of the Trinity. I think we have a weird view of angels. I think we have a weird view of aliens. And, And I think these are all connected.

And we have a hard time believing in all these concepts because we have this very narrow view of the spiritual supernatural realm, whatever we want to call it. Half of Christians still debate the Trinity. What is it? Is Jesus the Son of God? Or isn't he? And what are angels? Are they like us?

And here's a question. Before Jesus becomes a human, what form is he? Because when he has his resurrected body, does he change again when he gets? to heaven? Yeah. So, I mean, the idea seems to be when he, when he takes his resurrected body, that that becomes the same, the archetype body of what we will all have for eternity when we die. So there's no reason to think that Jesus somehow loses that body or changes it into something else. But before he came here, if the Old Testament is allowed to say anything at all, somehow he took on the form of the angel of the Lord. And it wasn't just a poof thing. It was like a

permanent thing. Now, you can take that question back farther and say, well, what was going on before he created anything? And those are, I mean, those are questions that I just have no way of, I don't think we could ever find a way to answer those kind of questions. But nevertheless, you know, in some ways, our view of the Trinity is kind of, it's kind of warped here because it's almost impossible to talk about one way, because it's utterly unique. I mean, you've got one God and three persons, this is the claim of the Trinity, that are the one God. And how does that even work? Well, you can work it out logically, but you can't really work it out much any other ways. And so you have to try and think about it. And I think that we're right to say things like, the one God is

without sex. He doesn't have sex. He's a sexless spirit being that contains the fullness and totality of what he imbues into humanity with male and female. He obviously he contains much more than that. But if he's trying to communicate masculine and feminine and he's sexless, how in the world would you do that to the creation? Well, that's just the God part. What about the father, son, and spirit part? So the father is not a woman and the son is not a woman.

The son is very clearly a man. And the father is very clearly male. This bothers a lot of people because they read things like the Sophia, the wisdom in Proverbs 8, and how it's personified as a woman. And many, many people have done this. The Gnostics were one of many that turned the Sophia into like a feminine third person of the Trinity or something like that. But the fact of the matter is Jesus somehow embodies this because in him,

is all wisdom and knowledge, as Paul tells us. So, you know, it's a tough thing to talk about. But when we get to the idea of communicating this to the creation, it's just very bizarre to me to think that he would create all the animals, male and female, humans, male and female. And I think Timothy Alborino is right about this when he talks about the angels as our elder race. I think it's just a great insight. but to think then that the elder race is only male.

And if they predate us, like Job seems to say, so for how long is it only males going on? And how in the world is God communicating this, you know, the whole feminine side of what he is in his totality to them? Like, did they only start to realize that once God made women, human women? The Genesis 6th story is not really about lust. It's about the seed war. It's about them trying to destroy the coming of Christ.

So it's, you know, we kind of act like, oh, well, they, you know, they just lusted after all women. And probably they did. But it's so much more than that. And if it's much more than that, then can't we imply based on the fact that we know that there are goddesses, that there, in fact, are female entities that are part of the heavenly realm and even part of the gods and part of the, you know, the angelic realm. I still understand what the problem with that is. Yeah, I mean, I love all these conversations.

And I think it seems like human beings are interacting with certain titles, right? Certain job titles. Like if, for instance, if you're lost in the wilderness, you're not going to run into a doctor and a lawyer and then you're going to run into a hunter. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And maybe human beings are only interacting with male angels because that's their job title. Their messengers. That's the fun.

Yeah, that's the fun. The Stork women, for example, they're not saying anything. They're moving the basket somehow. So it seems to be it's a different kind of a function. The ladies are the movers. We should try that down here. I moved everything last time we moved. And it's possible, too, that it could be sort of simple where Satan is tempting these watcher angels.

Oh, look at those ladies down there. It's easy pickings. It's like Luke in Japan, he's like, he's like, God over there. He's like six foot six and he's walking around and just, you know, just like a facial hair and height, you know, yeah, absolutely. But you know what I'm saying? They could just come down here and they're probably, they're literal gods among men. And what women wouldn't want to be with, there could be some simple, lusting desires as well. They just, they wanted, oh, this is interesting. It's hard for some Christians because it's like, how can they think like we think? Why would

they think like we think like we think? And it's like, well, why do we think the way we do? You know? It kind of goes in a circle. And I just don't understand. I think so many people are hung up because they have this preconceived understanding of everything that's spiritual is like this weird dream. It doesn't even really exist. Not like it does down here. We go to church, we talk about all these things, and then we just go back to our mundane lives and we forget everything we just talked about. As if it's not real, as if the afterlife isn't real. And I think these topics are really kind of pressing on people,

especially as the UFO disclosure happens, that there is a physical part of all this. They're building craft like a Ford assembly line somewhere, and they're coming here. That's just a hard fact for half the people listen to our show to swallow. We have many of them, and we don't even know how they work. We don't even know where the metals,

come from. Half the time we can't even get inside of these things. We don't even know how they work. So they're being built somewhere, you know. Let's bring it to the four then. Let's bring it to more recent times and what pertinence these ideas and concepts might have. And I'm thinking about things like the modern environmental movement and specifically the biodiversity treaty from the early 1990s where it's just written in plain side for anybody to see, people can go look this up. It's public domain. You know, they have to print their playbook before they do anything. There are elements within the Biodiversity Treaty that push environmentalism as this new religion.

Gaia? Yeah, the push being to get people to engage more in ancient nature paganism. And so those, including goddess worship, in fact, identifying the earth with the Greek, Greek Titan Gaea. It was in fact, it was the Greek mythological embodiment of the earth. And so this is a thought experiment. If we can look at why people should be thinking about these kinds of things in addition to just the strictly theological, and even in this context, there are theological ramifications for something like the 1991 biodiversity tree. they've certainly, the powers that be certainly have done this, whatever appellation we want to give to the powers that be.

But the push is already here now, particularly with the fertile ground that it's found in the postmodern world. Because there's no objective truth now under postmodernism, right? If it's the ultimate hermeneutic. And so that's why I say that, you know, culturally, socially, socially, In fact, spiritually speaking, the modern society is fertile ground for an embracing of this goddess that has worn many faces. Some of those personalities we've talked about tonight, like Asher, like the mystery Babylon, the mother of Arlitz from Revelation, like Anana in Mesopotamian mythology. you. So we're at a point now to where that's those rights in a repackaged format are finding expression and real space and time right in front of us. So it's it's it's a timely

topic for the church to be talking about and it just doesn't have attraction. Yeah, I was I was trying to find where I read this from him and in my little search engine it came up with a YouTube video that's called, there's only one goddess Gaia and Al Gore is her prophet. So I bring this up because, I mean, very pragmatically that the whole environmentalism movement has been touted publicly as this scientific thing, right? But behind the scenes,

and this goes to him, it goes to all kinds of people like you just mentioned, Judd, this is a pagan goddess religion posing. for the public in our culture as science. And it's anything but science. Anything but science. This is the goddess rearing her head right in front of us.

And once she gets enough power, then she has no problem telling you exactly who she is. But it's been subversive for decades and decades. And it's only in more recent times that people have really started to recognize what's actually going on. Do you think that maybe the goddesses have a different sort of set of skills to seduce humans to do things that maybe some of the, I guess. Like Liam Neeson says, like a certain, very certain specific set of skills.

Yeah, exactly. The goddesses have a certain set of skills. Yeah, I think so. I mean, when you look at Satan in the garden, I mean, he's tempting you with words and ideas and thoughts. He's putting those thoughts into your head. That's a very different kind of thing than, like, sexual seduction that you find with women, when women are portrayed as harlots in the Bible, that's kind of what they do. And that's,

that's kind of feminine wiles versus versus the way that men tempt people to do things. And you brought up roles earlier, Nate, and I think that's a great observation that if there are feminine, female kind of deities, that they would have a whole different way of seducing people than the male deities would. And we, in fact, find that throughout history in the worship of the goddess. I mean, men and women desire the same things, and we have two very different ways of going about getting them. That is what we know, right? You know, and, you know, we talked a little bit about Jordan Peterson and how he's kind of laid out no matter where we are in society. You still have men doing these types of jobs and women doing these types of jobs.

And he tries to break down. That's just how we're wired. We're just different beings. But we desire similar things. And I just wonder if, like I said, if you're comparing the two kingdoms, maybe that's, maybe some of these goddesses are using that seduction to lure in kings, then that is their territory. That is their domain. They seduce a king and then they have him. And they get their principality through seduction. Judd, what is the goddess? When we talk about like the goddess, not not, you know, just lesser female deities, but like the goddess, what are we talking about. So I did my master's thesis on a community of neo-pagans. And so there were a number of years I'd immerse myself in this mythology, you know, just the study of this mythology.

It's almost a kind of dualism when you think about it. And this is true of not just modern neo-paganism, but it's also true of the most archaic kind of goddess conceptualization in a general sense that there was a masculine, a divine masculine, and that there was a divine feminine. And so it's the concept in that context of the goddess is that it's as this she encompasses all things feminine. She's the embodiment of everything feminine, whether it's human femininity or cultural femininity or, you know, anything that that could be identified as feminine. She's the supernatural embodiment of all of that. And that's kind of the concept in terms of religious thought that you're looking at not only in classical antiquity or the ancient world, like the Roman Bonadilla or the

Magamater, you know, these are ancient concepts. We're very broad, very general concepts. Even the Venus of Villendorf that I brought up a moment ago. It's probably one of the oldest material that we have diagnostic material where we can identify those very general, broad, feminine, supernatural concepts. And, you know, here we are. I like the way Doug put it. Here we are today. The that goddess, that entity is rearing its head again in the guise of, of scientism and specifically the environmental movement, modern environmental or climate change or whatever the is now. It's really all the same.

But that's when we talk about a general kind of idea, the goddess, the divine feminine, these are the kind of ideas that are encapsulated within that concept. Was that the same thing that we would refer to as the Queen of Heaven? I think so. Well, I mentioned a moment ago that the modern environmental movement identifies the earth as Gaia. I think that that's just a rebranding in a way of this very powerful female entity

that's had such a cultural sway wherever she's in Scots, whether it's Babylon or Egypt, Greece or Israel. Yeah. Jeremiah talks about the Queen of Heaven a couple of times. And I found a couple of commentaries in my favorite book, The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible. That's what I read for fun. If any of you wanted, it only costs $10,000.

It is a retirement plan. It's buying a house. But there's a couple of quotes that are interesting. Isaac of Antioch is the fifth century church father, equated the Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah with Venus. which would make banana-a-ma happy. Hey, there we go. Also, Venus is Ishtar.

If we're going to go backward. She is. Yep. Same thing. But also, there's another, another interesting one, Epiphanius, who's a 4th century father, criticized the women of Athrakea and Scythia and Arabia, on account of their habit of adoring the Virgin Mary as a goddess and offering to her a certain kind of cake.

Well, the reason why that's so interesting is because that's exactly what Jeremiah says that they were doing to the mother of heaven, the queen of heaven. So there's nothing new under the sun. We say that myrtle branches were part of the riots. There you go. Yeah, well, that's right. We were in a part one, that will never be aired. Nate, you had brought up Esther, the book of Esther.

And that reminded me, because you were talking about roles and femininity, right? And as I'm recalling, that they, you know, she spent a year in beauty treatments. And it instantly struck me that Esther's name is Star and that her original name was Myrtle, her Hebrew name. And the reason why that matters is because the book of Esther is actually kind of the last play of Act 1 of the Old Testament of the Nephilim story. Because Mordecai, her uncle, his name means little man. And the enemy of the story, Haman, is an Agagite. And Agag is the sinner from the Amalekites, which are Raphaim. And in fact, to emphasize the point, he makes these giant gallows that he wants to kill Mordecai on,

and then he ends up getting killed on himself. And the point is that you have the little man, a God's man, the one he would never suspect, who's able to destroy the offspring of the Nephilim. So you've got the whole worldview, the supernatural. World View embedded in the story, and it's through names. And then you have Esther, who both of her names are deeply connected to the Divine Council through myrtle trees. It's in Zechariah chapter one that the Divine Council horsemen are riding through the myrtle trees, which are kind of a symbol of the council. And then her name is, of course, Star. That's all about the gods, because

that's literally what they're called. So, yeah, you find you find this. You find this everywhere. And it's just interesting to me, that Esther, of course, is a woman. She's, she's embodying, she's the embodiment of the female. She spent a year getting smoky eye, Nate. Oh, yeah.

A year, just giving her the best smoky eye. She was, she was just learning that walk, get the king's way, you know. It's kind of like a weird David and Goliath, if you think about it now. Like you have the short guy.

No, it's exactly what it is, yeah. Yeah, you got the short, chalk went up for the short kings. You have the same story in Joshua, too, with his mighty men. which are just average ordinary guys. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, so, I mean, there's a couple lessons here. Like, don't name her son Mordecai unless you want to be a little guy. But he could still, you know, he could still slay giant slink. And lay low on the smoky eye. Too much. You never know. You spend a year doing it. You better get it right.

Wow, my. There he is. Here's one more kind of practical thing. Have you guys heard of a guy named Jonathan Khan? Yeah. Yeah. So he recently wrote a book, The Return of the Gods. I thought you were going to talk about John Gray who wrote Miner from Mars.

Yeah, he's a he's a woman from Venus. Is that guy still even alive? I don't know. Jonathan Kahn brings up Ashera in this book. And under the context of the Return of the Gods and he makes a couple pretty interesting points. One is that she is, she's connected directly to the rainbow. She's the goddess of the rainbow. And in the context of that, and this is in Mesopotamian literature, and in the context of that, she also identifies herself as both the female and the male. So she ends up having this weird

androgy thing going on. Really bizarre. And in fact, she's a highly sexual goddess, but she's also goddess of war, almost like an Amazonian. Like Bruce Jenner. From Lesbos, right? I mean, so you've got all this kind of weird stuff going on with the goddess that this is one of the reason. why it's kind of speculative in terms of do these creatures mate or do they reproduce they sexually or does there is none of that like what in the world is going on because when you come to a creature like ishtar and this goddess asherah like what in the world is she and so brian gadawa actually just for kind of a novel trick in his nephalim series he i think he has probably a zazel but i don't

remember exactly who it is but it's one of the early early gods the sons of god and he has him basically basically acting as a transvestite taking on the form of Ishtar or Asher or whatever, but really it's a man. And it's kind of a clever way to bring in the whole transsexual, asexual, weirdness. But going back to Khan, he brings this up because he basically says, if she were to return today, what would it look like in a culture? And self-evident. It looks exactly like what's been happening in the last few years on high.

steroids. Yeah, I think one of the things we've done on the show a lot is put these, put these complex terms in more practical, a practical way that you can sit down and you can think about in a different light that for some reason, the church has changed the way we think about a lot of these things. And I like how you talked about in the episode, like bread from heaven. Well, bread is grains, grains is eating. Eating is biology, you know, lusting after human women. Luke and I often feel like, you know, what we're trying to do is help people understand the blurry creatures that are out there, that they physically manifest, and there's many of them. And a lot of people think that the ones they don't understand are just, let's lump them into one category. There can't

be female angels, there can't be male angels mating with humans, and there can't be Bigfoot, and there can't be dog man, and it can't be the hat man, and the black-eyed children, and the list goes on and on and on. I don't know why it's a lot of skepticism from the church. It seems as though somewhere along the line, you know, for thinking Doc Brown, somewhere in the alternate, it's skewed to this alternate Christian theology that we all believe now. And the ancient people had this vast understanding of all these things that we have lost. And really what we're trying to do is, you know, really kind of double the size of that crazy world. Because if some people think that it's only males, now what happens if all of a sudden there's a whole bunch of females?

You've doubled the size of that supernatural realm. And you've allowed yourself to consider different kinds of temptations and seductions that can come to you, can come to a culture, can come to the church through the feminine fallen creatures. Most of the goddesses that we see in antiquity, it's very specific in sort of the things they represent. It is seduction and fertility, which I mean, obviously, the woman's fertility, but it's the siren. It's calling men with this sweet seduction to their death, right? It's a very feminine. And if you think about the gods being corrupt and wanting to corrupt humanity rebellion against the king of heaven, against the king of kings, against Yahweh, right? Then it's like the deities that are masculine are gods of war.

and it's it's it's the same it's it's the temptation of Satan it's the it's the it's it's possessions it's ownership of of of things and then we get to the sort of the goddess area and I was thinking about this as we're talking it's like it's very sexualized and seductive and it's but both sides are ruination of humanity right we we don't there's there's no good to be done they just operate in very different and you might say binary ways, right? And... Well, but even that's not universal because, like, Athena, I mean, it gets really complicated because you got...

Well, she's got... There are women who've got a war, yeah, yeah. Yeah, supposedly male rules for females in some capacities, because, yeah, Athena, you know, her iconic symbol is the helm and the spear that she wields. Inana, Anana is a war goddess. She's the goddess of Bromiscuity in Mesopotam. But she's very clearly this war goddess as well. But they seduce, I feel like they're in ways that seem to be very binary. So that's what I think is interesting. You know, and then you can talk about one of the great philosophers of generation.

Austin Powers said, that's a man, baby. Right. Well, think about the, think about the Old Testament language of, and the close association between idolatry and adultery, the sexual connotations that come from that. And you can think that, of course, you can think about both ways. If you're thinking about the wife of God, then I suppose the adultery would be with the Bales. But if you're thinking about Israel as a man, which often Israel is personified as a man,

and what would be the counterpart? It would be the Asheras. And those things don't make sense unless you have male, female entities. Yeah. Certainly the perverted conceptual. of that is evident in the archaeological record. Again, if I could ever so stealthily refer to part one that will never be aired, brought up some archaeological evidence in Israel that clearly, you know,

you've got evidence of that idolatrous adultery in stone because there were reprobate Hebrews that were worshipping in some of these Canaanite cults that represented Yahweh with an Ashera consort in statuary. So that to me, Doug, I think you probably agree. That's a glaring example of that rendered in stone. Exactly. I think sometimes we think in our modern arrogance that we know more than the ancients. And we talk about this on our show a lot, Nate.

In our arrogance and postmodernism and post-enlightenment and in this academic era, we think we can better understand things and we change it. I think the applications here are very important. And I don't want to miss these that if we are to think that, that heaven is a Halo 2, Halo 2. For like a better term.

No. A bunch of angelic dudes hanging out, you know. They're playing Halo 1 because we all did in college, right? We have this idea that's just a bunch of dudes in heaven in the angelic realm hanging out. But I think if we were just to pragmatically look at the evidence, both historical, archaeological, especially scriptural, that makes a lot of sense that. perhaps we have female angels in the angelic realm in this thought experiment. I think based upon what we see in adjacent cultures and what we see in goddess worship,

what we see in pantheons, and what we can sort of see is implicitly connected between these two and its relation to the sons of God, Genesis 6th event, and the divine counsel. I think it's an compelling argument, and I think it's something to really think about, especially in light of the times we live in. And I think that's important to talk about. It's most of we talk about antiquity, guys. These things matter and resonate today. Yeah, there may be no more important topic to talk about in terms of pragmatic and what's happening in the culture than what we're talking about tonight.

And it's for Christians, too. You have to be like guys like Ken Ham who are just like tweeting out. And, you know, they didn't mate with women. And he just had all these list of character traits that he was a matter of fact about. And here he is like one of the bigger guys in this scene. But you can see that he doesn't accept the, and. all these other things too. So I think these are important because it's kind of like dominoes. You know, if you cut off some of these ideas, then you continue to go through scripture and you have to

delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, anything that doesn't sort of fit the narrative. And I think my heart on this episode is trying to help Christians understand, you know, what I think is coming, which is obviously, like you guys are talking about, crazy gender confusion, but I also think this denial that there are other beings that are flying around. And Christians have these just hangups of these complicated topics. And I think that it's great you guys are talking about this because it helps people trust it more. Okay. There's other stuff.

There is possibly, you know, a whole hierarchy of beings and there could be male and female. And Luke, I'm going to bring up Sasquatch one last time, the first one they... You have to get your third one in. It's like, it's like I'm watching Super Troopers and you got to say meow like 10 times, right? Like, listen, meow. She was, she was a lady just walking along the beach. Oh, here we go. I mean, there's, there's female Sasquatches.

Why can't there? I mean, it's pretty evident in the video that Patty had yams. Well, gentlemen, I think we're going downhill from here. Appreciate you guys coming on. I know it's kind of a weird topic. It's way beyond my pay grade. I'm not a historian, obviously, and it's hard for me to follow along. So I appreciate it.

also a ginger, which puts you a double disadvantage. I know. I've got probably some corrupted bloodlines somewhere in there. But it is your name of the show, blurry creatures, and there's no doubt that these are some of the bluriest of all the creatures that are out there. I mean, it would be weird if, you know, heaven is this realm, and forever there's no female deities up there, and all of a sudden humanity is rescued and brought to heaven, and all of a sudden there's all these women on the scene. That might create a weird environment. You know what I'm saying?

it's like at all, it's like at all boys school and all of a sudden the Catholic girls school, we're going to merge them. They're coming in. The dudes wouldn't know what to do. Nuns of you. None of you real mad. Yeah. There's a t-shirt here somewhere.

Heaven is cold. Go ahead. I like it, Judd. You get 10% for the big guy. You know what I mean? But this is how, this is the deep thoughts that my brain has. You guys have way deeper thoughts. I appreciate you coming on the show.

show. We're always trying to figure out more context to the weird blurry creatures that we hear about that make no sense that so many people are skeptical about. Yeah, and I think too, I would add like we would go back to Genesis 6, right guys? And this is really where a lot of it, the seed war. And, you know, for the prophecy of Gen 3, this is where it happens. And I think it's hard for a lot of people because, you know, of course we have the Sethite view, right? which is taught in every seminary in the United States for sure. I don't know about the rest of the world, but you have this whole set-eye view.

And it's just contrary to what the church fathers and to what Jesus himself and to what was taught thousands of years before that. And you need to make sense of how pragmatically this happened. And to extrapolate on that, to what we see in culture, in antiquity, I think all of those things really line up. And so I think this is such an important conversation because, you know, right, wrong in between, right?

I think it only behooves us to really try to understand our arms around it. And when we bring in, you know, guys like you that spend the 10,000 hours, and we talk about, you know, extra biblical things like Plato and Enoch and these other places that provide, you know, additional context to the scripture, that's what things that were, and I want to remind people, those were things that were accessible to the people of the time, right? And they were read. They were well read.

This is what they did. They read the scrolls. They didn't pull up their iPad and watch Netflix or listen to their, you know, or listen to whatever on audible or play games on their phones or whatever. They read. They knew these things, right? This was common knowledge. And I think that's lost on us sometimes.

So that's why it's a long way to say, this conversation is so important. And I'm just grateful that you guys spent time with us now. two nights in a row on the same topic. I mean, we're not trying to give all the answers. And there are difficult passages, you know, like, what does Jesus mean when he says that the angels don't marry and are not given in marriage? I mean, I think that we come to that passages like that, which are hard. I'm not going to lie.

But we come to it with presupposition. And in that case, it's probably the presupposition, well, that there's no female angels. So that solves that problem. or angels are sexless. So that's all that problem or whatever people come to. And all I want to say is, look, there's always going to be problem passages for everybody. But there's also a lot of things that you avoid sometimes in a passage like that when you have a presupposition that if you, if you consider other things, then it seems to me that you have to be a little bit more honest and say, and try and find out maybe there's something else that could be happening there. that could answer that question of what Jesus is talking about, that isn't what I thought.

And that's really kind of what I want people to take away from this, is there's a whole world out there that we're trying to expose in terms of female deities that I think we should be taking seriously and that we should bring to difficult passages. I agree. As we try and interpret the world. As Mike would say, it's weird, it matters, or it's important. Right. Well, it's all weird.

I think that's the thing. It's all weird. This whole thing is weird. Everything we hear on the show, it's strange. I think we make it not weird so we can process it. The Sethite view is let's make it not weird. Let's strip it down. I just feel like that's the case.

It's just this whole thing is strange. Well, it's not that they feel like it. Like that's literally what Augustine and Chrysostrom and Calvin and Luther said. They said, this is insane. I don't believe it. That's what they said. Yeah. So that's their argument.

We do. We lean on our own understanding. We try to figure these things out. And then we cast away. You know, you do show like this for a long time. And you're just like, man, it's just bananas. I mean, everything's just the stuff that comes at us every day, 100 links. It's banana ramma.

You're like. It's banana ramma all the time. I mean, it's like you go crazy. Sometimes you just got to go for a walk and check a baseball game or something because you're just, you're out. And gentlemen, you guys are great. Thank you for always coming on our show and just making our listeners angry. and we get the hate mail. I don't know why.

They're not angry. They might get angry. They just clamor for more Doug and more Judd. This is not angry. This is not angry episodes. This one might be, which is always fun. Stir them up, right?

It's new wineskins, guys. It's the idea that we need to stretch our paradigms. As Doug, you said, we presuppose a lot of things that perhaps are cultural dogma that don't necessarily find their roots in scripture, but become comfortable answers for uncomfortable questions.

And I think it's important to get uncomfortable with the scripture and with our face in order to stretch our wine skins, if you will, to go with that metaphor. And I'm just grateful for you guys because, you know what, there are, there are a shortage of, I was about to quote Princess Bride. And I don't know why that even happened in my brain, but I'm not going to make that quote. That doesn't fit here, guys. But there's a, no, but my point is there's a shortage of scholars and pastors and thinkers in this world that have the current. to deviate outside of the box and to ask some of the questions and address some of the things in scripture that are that are our heart. And so, you know, I know I speak for audience and for Nate and I want to say we're grateful for you guys. I mean, we're beyond grateful for your friendship

on a personal level, but for, on a professional level, we're grateful for you guys have the courage to take these things head on because there are, frankly, there are not a lot of people in the space that do that, right? Because you put yourself in a position for, for the, for mainstream to, you know, you open yourself to trolls and everything else to say that, that you guys are, you know, or we collectively are on a tangent or off base, but the reality is, is that we don't increase our faith unless we question some of the things. And we try to discuss some of the things that are important. And you guys really bring it all the time. So we're grateful for you guys. You guys are OGs. You've been here for since the beginning. And, and,

And, man, frankly, we love you guys. And so it's a treat, it's a treat to do this two nights in a row as much as it was a pain, as much as it feels like Groundhog Day. I just, I think these in conversations, I can't iterate how much I think these are important. And the work that you guys are both individually doing is so important. And collectively we're doing, right? We have a certain amount of book coming out. If I can encourage you at all, like, in the way that I know it resonates with,

at least our small community that you guys are running a good race. and just keep on keeping on well thanks man yeah we we love you guys and we're so glad to be able to be part of the show absolutely right now glorycon too and everything in between you're stuck guess what we know where we know hey we know where you live we send you shirts come find you