Blurry Creatures - EP: 225 The Three Rebellions with Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Discover the riveting tales of defiance against divine order and the cosmic consequences that ensued. From the insurrection of Lucifer and his fallen angels to the rebellion of mankind in the Garden of Eden, Dr. Muddamalle provides profound insights into the theological significance and enduring impact of these cosmic upheavals. How can we fully and accurately set the scene for the coming of Christ?  Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Intro Song: SunglassesKid Socials  instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes. what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog is, needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right? That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA and thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it.

I'm giving it to our two dogs. You know, I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting rough greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy. their joints hurt less, they're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Greens really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry.

That's RUFFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. God keeps Jacob, Israel, as his allotted inheritance. and he for a time disinherits the nations of the world and he gives an allotment of these nations to the sons of God, to the Bene A Elohim. And in so doing, this is stewardship. Stewardship.

The goal is stewardship. Protect them, take care of them until I bring them all back into the family. Well, where is I bring them all back into the family? This is Genesis 12. The Abrahamic covenant. Where does Abraham come from? He comes from Er of the Chaldeans. Where's Er of the Chaldeans?

Er of the Chaldeans is Babel. It's roughly the area of Babel. So literally, in Genesis 12, God goes into the epicenter of rebellion, and he picks one family, draws them out to himself. And he says, hey, by the way, you are going to be the means by which all the families of the world are brought back together. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural.

This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, so welcome back to blurry creatures, everyone out there. Luke got this going. a new book. Dr. Joel Mundamali's back in the house, back in the blurry verse. We are going to go. We're going to go 100 miles an hour today. But if you can't see what we can see, we're both wearing camo in support of Dr. Joel's new book, The Hidden Piece. We just came off our trip in Costa

Rica. We had some wild days all day long. Between you and Tim, I walked off stage with my head spinning. And Joel, thank you so much for coming on that Costa Rica trip. Everyone loved it. We got so much great feedback about you and your thoughts. And Tim, Tim, a hard guy to pair up with somebody because he's so unique and you handled it perfectly and everything was great but today we're gonna and i would add this too i think and i said this and i still believe this that the session we had and this has not been it's going to be released at some point the video and the audio from but i really do believe that session where we did the galactic war and cosmic geography with you and tim is maybe my favorite yeah you said episode or session we've ever done i thought

it was so exceptional. I think it's just a testament to, you know, to Jolt to your, just your acumen, and then also just the way that you and Tim being sort of, you know, juxtapose in some ways with your, with not only your, sort of your sitting, being, you being a theologian and Tim, a researcher and your ideas, but I thought it played so well. Yeah, it's, it's really hard to get that at a conference. Yeah, and you guys are able to find common ground. I think so many people want to debate points, especially, scripture. People draw hard lines and die on hills that I believe most time are really stupid because they're not Salvic. They're not Salvic, right? But I just, I loved, loved that. And I, I just

loved a lot of folks that went to our conference, had the ability, you know, just to spend time with you and see you, you and Britt. You are, you're a special person. And I, I'm grateful that we got the chance to meet, you know, last year. And it's been a fun year. And you have a brand new book out. This episode is coming out with your book comes out March 5th. It will be out when this drops. And so everybody, go check it out. The Hidden Piece. This is Dr. Joel Matamale's book on humility. He's giving us pieces throughout our sort of our blurry journey with you. You talked a bit about it at the conference. And today we're going to talk about somethings that kind of play ancillary into some major thematic pieces of your book. But yeah.

Yeah, we're talking the three cosmic rebellions today. This is huge. This is like the turning point, my own putting together like all my history of Christian, you know, churches and groups. This was a big deal. I remember when I heard Heiser say that there's three things going on in the old, there's three major themes in the Old Testament. And we were only taught one, most of us growing up in church. I love this topic. It was huge for me. It transformed. It was a huge part of wanting to start the blurry journey of like, man, I want to uncover all these things and figure out. Nate, would you say this was the hidden piece to your journey? This was a hidden piece to my journey.

And here it is. We got some, we're going to drop some dad jokes today. So you guys out there. And quite the journey you've been on, Nate. We'll try to keep it, we'll try to keep it PG. But as you know, well, I'm excited, you guys. And I think a couple things I want to just touch on, one, the Costa Rica trip for me was life changing.

It truly was life changing. My wife and I got to go on that trip. And the representation of the blurry fam was just phenomenal. at dinner. Often we sat with just like people, you know, like everybody who is there. And even to this day, we're still in conversation with some friends that we made there. And so I'm just grateful for the both of you taking a risk, like following the Holy Spirit and just being like, hey, we're going to do this thing. And what a powerful moment on that boat to like just, you know, Nate, by the way, if y'all don't know this, Nate can, Nate can dive. Like, he can dive into the water. Like,

He did a full-on dive, like headfirst, looking like Michael Phelps, the whole nine yards, and it was pretty amazing. But another thing, too, is Tim is brilliant. I mean, he really is a brilliant mind. And he was such a fun conversation partner to be with because Tim's perspective and my perspective actually hinge together on Jesus. Like, you will notice this in the cover. Like, we always just kept going back to like Jesus.

point of the story is Jesus. Now, how we get to that hinge at times is colored in different ways. And that was just a really fun exercise for me. And then for you guys to know behind the scenes, Nate knows this and Luke knows this. We just had fun, man. We all stayed at the same Airbnb that night, uh, those nights and we just had a lot of fun. But I wanted to maybe get into the, the conversation. And I know we're talking about like humility and in this book. And, and one of the things just from a very practical standpoint is like this question, Why are blurry conversations difficult? Like when you're out with somebody and you are like, hey, have you ever thought about

Genesis 6 and the Nephilim? Just breaking the ice. Just breaking the ice, Julia. Have you ever thought about this? Not for us. It's the opposite. Everyone wants to talk about that with us. No, no, no.

But I'm talking about, so this is a really important distinction, right? I'm not talking about the blurry verse fam that this is every day. Like, you know, we're going to do Genesis 6 today and you guys am like, oh, yeah, we've thought about that. I'm talking about when you're in coffee with somebody and you want to with your friend who you're friends with and you have been friends with for a long time. But this one part of your life, the blurry part of your life has not been exposed to them, right? Because there's a sense of vulnerability to be able to just say, hey, by the way, like, I actually really, really do believe that Genesis 6 should be read simplistically. Like, simply, like, yes, that these are angelic beings, the sons of God, who cohabitate with human women.

And like, even as I say that now and you hear that, you can probably feel the tension of how do I communicate this with somebody who has never had that paradigm, who's never even thought of a cosmic understanding of the scriptures. And so this is where, for me, personally, humility has truly been this massive journey for me. And on just a very practical level, if there's like, if you're like, man, how do I even engage into this conversation with a friend or somebody that I dearly love that I want to be able to have these conversations with? I honestly do believe the hidden piece as a resource as a book is going to be a perfect resource and a book to hand to your friend because there are two specific chapters in there where we cover pride and my entry point into pride is actually the origin story of Satan. Like some of what we're going to talk about the Nakash and what's happening in Eden and all this stuff. It all comes back to this question of who is the serpent? What is the serpent doing? And what is this idea of a divided household?

And what is this cosmic rebellion? And so from just a practical level, I think humility, like this entire conversation is so vital for specifically the blurry verse because, y'all, if we are not willing to just consider, step back and consider, I may not have it right. Like, you know? Amen, Joel. That's huge because, like, a lot of times, like, one of our main critiques that we get, and we don't have to go into detail to this, it's just lukinator gullible.

They believe everything comes on their show. And it's like, no, we have the humility to listen to someone tell their story. And we don't believe everything we hear. But what we put out and try to is like model some humility. Like, I don't know. Tell me. What do you think? And then we like sort through it and go.

But I think that hopefully it's not gollability. And we just believe everything. It's more like, hey, it's taken us each 40 some years to kind of, I don't know. You tell me. What's your story? What have you experienced? What do you know? And I think that's what we do here.

and sometimes the critique is, you guys put out way too crazy stuff and you believe everything. And it's like, asking questions and listening to somebody is now goalable. That's not the case, I don't think,

but not to, not to tutor a horn or anything. I would say that it's, yeah, I would actually say it's a sign of honor. It's a sign of dignity, you know, like the willingness to be able to listen

to somebody else and to say, hey, what are your views? Where do you come from? Giving the data, like, like, let's have some informed dialogue

around this. And then your ability to be like, hmm, That's really interesting. And, you know, one of my favorite phrases from a scholarship standpoint is to say, thank you so much. Like, I feel like I've got a 360 degree really, like, angle on, on your thesis or what you're trying to argue.

And yet I'm unconvinced. Like, you can say that. You can actually have better understanding of the argument and still be unconvinced of that argument. And that doesn't take away from anybody. It doesn't take away from the value of the argument or the substance of the argument. It just means at this point in time, you're just not convinced yet. you know, and I think it's really important that we use that operative word yet. It's when we put,

I'm not convinced period, that is very difficult because there's no room for the opportunity of there might be more data points that come in later on in your life that change the I'm not convinced yet to, huh, I think I'm convinced today. And I told you guys this, and I said this at the Costa Rica deal, when I was early when my doctoral advisor, who we all love here on this podcast, Dr. Michael Heiser, when Mike and I first met, I was a punk kid who used to walk into a renowned Old Testament scholar, Semetics, languages scholars' office and tried to argue with him that we should not have a supernatural reading of the scriptures, like that Psalm 82 doesn't say what it says.

The Genesis 6 doesn't say what it says. I argued for a set that view. And you know, Mike would just sit there with me and just like, he would just grin. He'd have this grin on his face. And he would be like, all right, so tell me why. And I would give him, you know, and then he would give me hit. And so, like, I am sitting in front of you truly as a. paradigmatic, like just an example of somebody who has changed over time because I can't ignore the data

that's in front of me, the facts that are in front of the scriptures as how they point to one cohesive story. And one of the big things, this is again, when you guys hear me, a lot of what you're going to hear often is going to be fragranced with a lot of what Heiser has taught me in the things that he has worked hard. Part of what I believe my kind of role and responsibility that God has given me to move forward is to continue to reemphasize what Mike has spent his life researching, communicate. Like, you know, Mike would always say, I'm here to collect dots, connect dots and communicate the dots. And I feel like I'm an extension of his communication of those dots that he's already done. And so this is going to be one of those examples. But I remember

something that Mike said to me once, and I was just shook by it. And he said, you know, Joel, if you asked someone of Jewish descent or someone who lived in the second temple period, what's the cause for all the pain and evil in the world? You would be shocked at their response. And he goes, but if you ask somebody today, like just an evangelical Bible-believing Christian or whatever else, and he said, hey, what is the cause of evil in this world? They'd be like Genesis 3. Absolutely, Genesis 3.

But for a Second Temple reader, for a Second Temple person who lived in the context of the writing, you know, not, it wouldn't be so simple. It would actually just be like, oh, Genesis 3, Genesis 6. in Genesis 11. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language,

stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy.

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Genesis 3 is just a part of that conversation, but it's not the full part of the conversation. And Genesis 6 and Genesis 11 are massive. And so the conversation, I think, that is really important for us to kind of retreat is the second temple understanding of what is the actual cause? What is the actual situation that has placed us where we are today in 2024, where we're dealing with all kinds of chaos that's happening in life, right? We've got spiritual chaos, emotional chaos, physical chaos, relational chaos. I mean, like, we could just talk about chaos and the chaos monster with the Levithin all day,

every day. And that same imagery, that same situation is here today. And so what I found is that really what we have present for us that the Old Testament lays out and that we have to retrieve is the sense that there are, in fact, three cosmic rebellions throughout the scriptures. And if we don't get these three cosmic rebellions, right, it's actually going to be a hindrance for us to understand what does Jesus actually accomplish on the cross. Yeah. Like we want to go to the cross and we want to talk about the cross.

I'm going to talk about the victory of the cross, but what does that actually mean that Jesus was victorious on the cross? And I would argue this is kind of like my big thesis statement that the three cosmic rebellions always are parallel throughout scripture. And in fact, this is a pattern that has a purpose throughout all of the Bible, that there's always an earthly reality and next to simultaneously parallel to that earthly reality is a supernatural reality. And these two things are always supposed to coincide with each other. But post-enlightenment movement, we've lived in a world where we've tried to demythologize the Bible.

We tried to separate what is earthly and what is cosmic. And that is foreign to how the first century readers and hearers of the scriptures even understood like what was happening in the narrative structure of humanity. Joel, what did Mike say specifically to you that started to change your mind? Because I've heard it said many times, like true intelligence is the ability to change your mind. It's like having the internal dialogue. It's having going back and forth in your head and coming to a better thought and changing your mind. And you don't see that often. People will dig in and they will stay in their camp and it's forever. And you can't get them out of that. What did Mike say to you that started to shift your paradigm? Yeah. And what's interesting is Mike, I mean, was so brilliant. I mean, there was no doubt that he was smarter than me on all accounts, you know. And the funny thing is, is it wasn't, like, Mike never shamed me into intellectual understanding. Like, he didn't use his intellectualism as an elitist weapon against me, right? But what he did was he drew some connections. And so one of the biggest things that he, that he helped me see was that I've actually been blinded by my Western reading of the text. So when I see the English word God, with the capital G in my Bible, I have presumed an understanding of what that English word God with that capital G means in context to every time that it's present. And then it was a snowball effect for me where I go, well, I'm Indian. I have a cultural background. Like the way that I

view certain things in culture is colored. It's, it is informed by the way that I was raised that is directly connected to the fact that I was raised as an immigrant child of an immigrant family, you know, that came from India. Like, if you come into my house, my mom's house, you would have to take off your shoes when you come in. Like, you're going to expect to go into this room that nobody is ever allowed to go into unless you're a guest that my mom loves. She's going to hand you chai and biscuits. I mean, these are all cultural things that actually frame relationships. And so when all, when are we going to, wait, hold, let me we're going to visit the Guatemala. I want some chai biscuits too. Next time you're in. How do we score that invite? It won't just be

that. She'll be making you some Indian food. Your life will change forever. Homemade non. It's changing, thinking about it. Oh my gosh, absolutely. But so for me, for me, y'all, this was what it was, huh, when the Bible talks about the gods of the nations, that that word Elohim, what the scriptures are pointing at is not non-existence, but it's talking about a lack of superiority

in comparison to Yahweh, right? And that simple thread was the thing that was pulled that changed my entire understanding of the Old Testament. Like I'm working through the Bible in a year right now chronologically, and I'm in numbers in Deuteronomy. And it finally just makes sense. The land acquisition, you know, like how many times do the Nephilim, the Anakim, the Raphaim, how many times do they show up? And they are this thorn in the side of Joshua and the Israelites as they're trying to take over the land. And it's like, well, there's an issue here. There's a, there's a significant

problem and this problem actually permeates and flows from Genesis 6. But if you only have a Genesis 3 understanding, then you're left scratching your head, wondering, why in the world of the Nephlam keep being mentioned? And why does this King Og of Bashan, why does he have this massive freaking bed, you know, like this is weird? Well, it's only weird because you've stripped the narrative structure of Genesis 6 out of the natural flow of what's actually happening in the story of Israel. And so for me, that was like the big thing of just saying like, oh, this is an ancient document that is written in a

culture and a time. And just like today, if I were to say, hey, where were you at 9-11? You would all be like, oh, I was here, I was there. And the funny, the interesting thing is, like, all I said were 9 and 11, like two sets of numbers. Well, how did you make the connection that I'm talking about a tragic event that took place in New York where a plane, went into two buildings, an act of, like, horror. Like, you'd be like, oh, the context, the social setting. Like, I remember why I was. It was written all over the place.

Well, there's a sense of, I don't want to say this gently, but also, like, accurately, there's a sense of arrogance on our part pride, on our part to strip the text of its natural, historical, social, and cultural context. Because what that does is it makes our context the primary context of, the scriptures, which is absolutely absurd. Right. It's just absurd. It makes no...

This is why we leave the Old Testament scratching our heads, like, let's just go to Jesus in the New Testament. But then we only get a very shadow of what Jesus is even doing, because we haven't even understood the... Like, Jesus is constantly quoting Isaiah. He's constantly quoting Deuteronomy. He is living out the story of Israel of the Old Testament. I know when you get into history, cosmic rebellions, but that's exactly like why I

this is so vitally important why humility is at the very center of this discussion and conversation and the center of your book man this is it's amazing i do think man there's your story and then this the macro idea uh and nate kind of mentioned it too the idea of approaching things with humility like that i don't know everything and then i am a 21st century westerner for the vast story people who listen to this show as well and you know and not not the 21st century but the westerner part obviously unless you time travel we'll have you on the show just excuse me know but No, I think it's in an era where everyone, like Nate had said, everyone digs in and dies on a hill, you know, of hermeneutics or scripture or, you know, the way that they interpret eschatology, whatever that is. Yeah.

It's completely lacking in the idea of humility, as you said. And I love the story of you changing your mind. It's big with Mike. Mike was a brilliant, a brilliant man. And, you know, I would say this and encourage you, man. you're doing an unbelievable job of carrying that mantle. Like I, and that just as your friend, but also someone who gets to watch, you live it out, right? And I do believe that's such important work. Yeah. And Mike always said, and he said on our show that like he didn't have me original ideas.

He just compiled as you said connected dots, right? And I think, but I think those dots he connected are so imperative for, as you said, under understanding the work of Christ. When you present these three rebellions, when you just give people the facts, like Tim has said many times on our show, the gospel is, and I used to do drugs and I don't do it anymore. The gospel is understanding the fullness of what Christ repairs. And when you're presented with that and like with a little bit of that Marvel movie energy and you can really step back and see it, you can't help but fully understand why you need Christ and why you're giving your life to him.

And I think that's why when I listen to Heiser talk about this, I was like, ah, because a lot of people walk away from Jesus because they don't really get it. It's like, it's on a billboard. Give your life to Jesus. and you drive by it every day to work. You're like, okay. But what does that mean? What am I really doing and why do I need him? And I think that's why these, the in-depth conversation we're about to have is, is why. Yeah, that's great. So let's start in Genesis 3. And I think this is one of those things that sometimes our familiarity with something can actually create a type of forgetfulness for us. And the Genesis 3 narrative is often

incredibly familiar. Like, and we think, we kind of assume or presume that we have all the understand that we need for what's taking place in Genesis 3, but I want to just give us some like hallmark landmark kind of ideas. And for a second, you know, if you're listening to this, I want you to, and this is just for a second, this is not for forever. So don't get mad of me, but just for a second. It's like, I wear glasses, take off your glasses, take off the lens by which you've understood Genesis 1, 2, and 3 for just a moment and just try to step into the mind of an ancient Hebrew and be like, what is actually happening in Genesis 1, 2, and 3? And how did the author of Genesis, who I would hold traditionally was Moses, who wrote the first five books of the Old Testament, definitely was some editorial in there as well? Like, like, what was he trying to communicate for us to understand? And again, this might stress some people out. I don't believe that Genesis in general, the Bible in general actually, but for sure, Genesis 1 through 3 is purely scientific. Like, it's not trying to prove science to us. It's actually trying to show us who is Yahweh, how is he a good father?

and what does he desire for his family, right? And we get to see some other interesting details. So one of the first important things about Eden, and we've talked about this nauseam in other places and even on the podcast here is like, like Eden's on a mountain. Eden's on a mountain. Mountains matter to people. So I want you to just think about the last time you sat at the foot of a massive building, right?

Like you're pulling in the other day I was falling into Charlotte and you can just see the city and the big towers and the spatial difference of flying on top of something versus landing and being at the bottom of something does something to you. When you're on top of it, you feel superior, supreme. You're like, I'm the king of the world. But when you land and you're at the foot of that thing, you're like, I am tiny. I am minute. Right. So there's this natural thing inside of us. It's like, we'll get to the top. Like, who doesn't want to feel like they're at the top, who doesn't want to feel like that's the king of the world, right, or the queen of the world. And so mountains in the same way in the ancient world, they mattered. They matter to the

people. They believe that this high spot on this geographical land was the place where God met with humanity. And so you have this description in Genesis 1, 2, and 3. And for the sake of time, you can just actually read the text or you can read G.K. Beal's book. It's a monograph on the temple of God. It's just brilliant. Where he makes a theological and scholarly case to show that Eden is on a mountain. And not only is it on. a mountain, but Eden is actually the first temple home of God. So Eden is actually a garden temple. Well, how do we know that Eden is a garden temple?

Well, because the King of the Cosmos plants Eden on a mountain in the ancient near eastern world. Kings would plant gardens. Well, why would kings plant gardens? Kings planted gardens to enjoy the garden with their royal family, right? Like, it would be, it would be asinine to plant a garden and just leave and not do anything with it. Why would you do that? Like you plan. And so now we have a problem because the garden is planted, but it's empty of a particular

hype of family. And what is that family? Humanity. So God creates Adam and Eve. And the language is actually really important. Genesis 215. It says that God places them in Eden. There's some spatial understanding here in the Hebrew text where the idea is that from the ground,

God creates Adam and lifts him. The Hebrew word here, Nua, it has connotations of wrath. It's not the normal word for put. It actually has connotations on overtones of rest. And so fascinating. Prior to Adam Neve ever doing anything, Yahweh creates Adam, picks them up and puts humanity on Eden,

which is on top of a mountain, and then speaks over them, blesses them basically Zephaniahs. He's singing over them. And then he commissions them in order to do the work, to do the command, to do the kind of dominion mandate. And all this is really important

because now you've got this picture of Eden, Eden as the place where God dwells, where throughout the Old Testament, the place where God dwells is holy. It's the temple. In fact, that the Hebrew word Ba'i'i'i'h, which is household, is used in three primary contexts. Be'i'ith is used as a household, like family household. It's used as a temple. So it's talking about the temple household of God, and it's also used in kingdom language as a kingdom. You said this place was steps from the water.

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It matters where you stay. Hilton for this day. Y'all, all three are present in Eden. You've got God who is king, but God is also priestly. he creates his priestly vice regents, Adam and Eve, to help steward and take care of his heavenly home. And it's a kingdom because God is king. And so he wants his kingdom to expand onto the earth. Now we get rebellion, right? Like, we're going to be great if everything ended with Genesis 2. And like, we just lived in the Edenic paradise like right now. And that's not the story. So what is actually happening with Genesis 3 when the serpent shows up? One of the challenges that we have is, and again,

I want to show this, and we're going to see this multiple places, that every time you have earthly rebellion, there's cosmic rebellion next to it, right? There's a spiritual rebellion that's right next to it. Every time you have spiritual rebellion, you have an earthly rebellion that's next to it. The biblical text does not demarcate these two things that are always presenting it together. And in fact, we can talk about Jesus later, but that's what we'll find with Jesus. I'm going to read a section from my book, The Hidden Peace, where I actually get into this, and I think this is important. It says this, that throughout scripture, so you've got the serpent who kind of shows up in Eden, right? So throughout scripture, Satan is referred to through a variety of names.

You've got the serpent in Genesis. You've got the Prince of Demons, Matthew 9, 12, Mark 2, Mark 3. You've got the Prince of the Power of the Air Ephesians 2, 2nd, and you've got the God of this age, 2nd Corinthians 4. Now, interestingly, Genesis refers to him simply as serpent. But the Hebrew word used here, Nakash, indicates that he's actually a supernatural being. There's a lot going on with the word. It can mean a serpent. It can mean a divine throne guardian.

and it can mean having a shining bronze or fiery appearance. And this is, I'm quoting Heiser here. And here in Genesis, all three of these meanings are at play. So we want to read simplistically, right? So I'm not quoting anymore. I'm just talking. We want to read simplistically. Like, we just want to see a serpent as a type of snake.

And it's kind of a weird thing. Why is the snake talking? Right. But again, if you're an ancient reader and you're looking at this Hebrew word Nakash, you're instantly thinking three images in your mind, right? And two of those images specifically are supernatural. and the other one could be natural or supernatural. And then I go on in the book.

In the ancient Near Eastern world, the Nakhash was a symbol for a divine throne guardian. Genesis 3 puts this guardian in Eden, which can be considered the temple home of Yahweh, the first image of the holy place where God's throne resides. This means the serpent was near God's throne and responsible to guard it. We can see how the shining, fiery element fits in as well when we look at a divine throne room seen in Isaiah 6. It describes angelic beings guarding the throne. of God using the Hebrew word serf, which can refer to a kind of serpent or a fiery serpent shape. We find this in Numbers 218. And then you get some interesting details in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah

14, and I'll just summarize this, and then we'll get into the actual rebellion. In this, it tells the origin story of this serpent of Satan. And in doing so, the text says that at one point, again, actually a very important detail, that it's a prophecy, it's a vision of a human king, but it's describing a supernatural being. Notice the conflation, once again, of earthly and spiritual. Like, even the literary style of the narrative is constructed to consistently put this in front of us. Like, hey, by the way, we're talking about an earthly king, but don't remember forget,

there's a supernatural reality as well. There's a spiritual reality as well. And so in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14, in both places, this serpent, this Nikosh, he's being described as a shining or bright star ties back to the serpent of Genesis 3 and shining bronze or fiery image, which is the meaning of the Hebrew word for Nakash. In Ezekiel 2018 and 14, each offer of prophecy about a human king, but inside of those prophecies is another layer that tells the background story of Satan's downfall. And it's specifically because the serpent looks at the throne room of God and out of curiosity wonders, huh, what would it be like for me to sit there? And then, because of pride,

the serpent in the serpent's heart, he goes into rebellion. It's interesting, Ezekiel 28, 12 through 17. This is the description of this Satan, of the Nukash. It says that God covered him in precious gems, which signified special priority and privilege. He's the anointed guardian cherub. This is verse 14. And then in verse 17, this is what God says of him. He says, your heart became proud because of your beauty. For the sake of your splendor, you corrupted your wisdom. Do you think, Joel, I think some people like when they do read Genesis like a science book, it says, you know, the serpent, you would curse, you'll crawl on your belly. Is that?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, you're, what do you think about that? You're taking me here. So, okay, before I get into that, let me just, let me just make some connections for us here. Always reading ahead, Nate. Always read ahead. I've got a fan theory, actually, about that.

It's going to be more speculative. But let me go to what I can, like, argue, theoretically, scholarly, and then we're going to get into that. So first I want us to pay attention. very closely to the pattern here, that the serpent sees something, desires something, and decides to take something. This pattern, so we shouldn't be surprised when the serpent, the Nakhash, presents these things to Adam and Eve. You see, the serpent is just playing out his own sin story with humanity. And so he sees, he desires in his heart, and the thing that he desires is not something for him to have. And then because he can't have it, he wants to take it of his own will,

of his own force. This is like the unholy trinity of pride that's being played out. So this is what Eve does. Eve sees the fruit. She desires what the fruit could possess and could gain her, but she's not supposed to have it, but she and Adam together, they were together. They take of it. See, desire, and take. This translates really well to our own lives. How many times do we see something? We desire it, but the root of our desire is actually unholy because it's not something that was even given to us. and then we decide to take it of our own will. So. It's like David.

It's like Bathsheba and David. Oh, listen. It's actually even more. It's actually more than Bathsheba and David. This is actually a hyperlink to Genesis 6. In Genesis 6, it says the sons of God, which we know, the Ben Elohim, are angelic beings. We don't even have to argue that. They saw, they desired, and they took the daughters of men.

Which is why, and I'm going ahead here into the second cosmic rebellion, and we'll get into that. but this is also why I believe that this is actually the origin story of human sex trafficking. I actually think that in Genesis 6, these sons of God see, they want to take, they want to take, they want to take, the desire and they take. And I think that the fathers here, and this is something that Tim helped me to frame a little bit more detail with his view, even though we differentiate a little bit on this. I do think that they offer up the daughters for alliances. is. And I actually think that what these patriarchal fathers are believing is that this alliance will grant them something good, you know, and so they give up their daughters. But the language of this is forceful. It's not something that I don't think that it's something that the daughter's like,

oh, yeah, absolutely, this sounds like a great idea, you know. It's something that they are forced into. This is just modern. This is just human sex trafficking. That's kind of what it is. So what happens in Genesis 3 is you've got the sea-taken, the sea-desire intake, Adam and Eve do this. They participate. And now you've got cosmic rebellion. You've got the serpent, the Nukhash, who has gone into rebellion, which, by the way, what are the angelic beings that are placed in Eden to protect it afterwards? Cheribim. With a flaming sword.

Okay. Why do Adam and Eve not freak out when the serpent shows up? Because they're used to... Because he's been there. I might even suggest maybe, just maybe this is one of those cherubim actually that was a guardian throne room cherubim. And so kind of like high priority, VIP access. you know, it's like everybody kind of knows when homeboys are like rolling through.

And so I think in one sense, there's like, oh, yeah, we kind of know who they're not surprised. They're not caught off guard. So the problem isn't what they look like, what the serpent says or suggests. Sorry, it's not what the serpent appears like. The problem is what the serpent says and suggests. It's not about outward. It's about inward. This is another biblical paradigm.

This is another biblical theme. You know, the Lord looks on what's on the inside and it's on the outside. And yet often we're trying to look on the outside. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is great. Well, no, if the inside is corrupt, the outside is absolutely corrupt. You know, we just can't see it. So now this question, what's going on with the serpent? In Genesis 315, you have what's referred to as the proto-eongelion.

This is the first glimmer of the gospel. Proto from Protas, which is first, and then Eongelion, which is a militaristic Greek word that is describing a proclamation of victory. So where, Joel, do you get this idea of the first glimmer of the gospel in Genesis 315? It's this prophetic image of the seed. It's a singular seed. So we know it's acts talking about Jesus,

who is going to crush the head of the serpent, but the serpent is going to bite the heel of the one that crushes him, right? This is the first glimmer of the gospel. This is what the cross is foretelling, foreshadowing the cross. What's super fascinating, and now, Nate, I'm going to be very clear that I've been, like, this is my training as a theologian and scholar. Like, I'm going to move from what I believe I can absolutely argue definitively with the text into what I'm going to call Joel speculation. So I'm moving into speculatory territory. It's a little bit

uncomfortable for me to do this, but you guys have somehow given me the courage to do this. The more it's taking me my third appearance to really be able to do this. My man. Let's go. I think there's more going on with the serpent. So this is my speculation, y'all. I can't say this, say this stronger. I actually think that when all the animals are presented in front of Adam to be a suitable helper at Azaire, right? That Hebrew word Azaire, that's like counterpart, that is the same word that's used of God who comes to the aid of Israel throughout the Old Testament. Like, this is not like this homemaker, like servant in the house. This is a fellow conquering king or queen. That's the idea. So I think this position is actually pretty significant,

you know? I think there's a reason why CS Lewis gets this idea of talking animals. And I think this is also why potentially Adam and Eve are not even freaked out when this being taught. talks, like talking is just normal, right? So fascinating. Maybe an act of decreation, the impact of sin on these animals is actually the loss of the, of an intelligence of their ability to communicate in such a way that would have been normative, which as I'm thinking out loud, makes a lot of sense because then it actually imics or mimics and recapitulates or foretells the Genesis 11 Tower of Babel disunification of the languages. But here's what you have here. I actually think that the serpent is one, like made it to the top. It's kind of like the scene of the bachelor.

you know, like who's going to get the rose, that type of deal. And I think the serpent's actually at the very top of the list. I think the serpent's like, I'm about to win this thing. You know, like, I'm going to be the suitable helper for Adam. And at the very end, it's like, no suitable helper was found. Well, if you're the serpent, you're like, well, this sucks. Like, you know, like you go. And so I actually think there's this pride here as well.

Like, I deserve this opportunity. And notice the language that Yahweh uses, the God uses of the serpent that it was craftier. It was cunning. It was wise. Like all these things make it a perfect opportunity, right? Here's where I think, speculatively, is happening. Speculatively, I actually think that this spiritual being creates an unholy alliance with this animal. And I think we have inhabitation.

I think we have inhabitation. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice.

Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. We talked about this at Costa Rica. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Astro like astral projection. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I do. I kind of, and here's why.

And here's the one kind of piece of data that really like makes me even feel comfortable saying this out loud, speculatively, is why in the world would God give a consequence that would go on in perpetuity to the serpent as a serpent purely physically as an animal. Like it feels like to me unjust of God to give a consequence to this animal and all of the animals that come after in this genealogical line unless there was a root sin that is passed on to generations after. This is the sin that is given to Adam and Eve that now is passed on to all generations after. This is the sin that's given to the serpent, right? And all the fallen angels. So why would

in this one-off case it be then given to the snake as a serpent animal that is then, it would feel unjust unless there was a reason, unless this serpent is actually guilty of some type of animal rebellion that actually took place as well. And in light of that, the serpent has to crawl on its belly and the consequence of that is to eat the dust. Well, where does humanity come from? It comes from dust, right? Yeah. So you have all of these things. So thanks for entertaining my speculation there. Well, no, I mean, like we see Jesus do that. He curses the fig tree, right? Yes. Like, why would he do that? Why would Jesus curse a tree? That's just where my mind's going. And I like, I like the 4D view because a lot of our show, we try, Luke and I try to say, like,

look, you have, if all these, you have the four dimensions and, you know, in our 3D world kind of colliding. And if you look back historically, you can kind of see they all interact with each other. Yep. And sometimes we just have this myopic view of, oh, no, like, I'm just looking at it from strictly a human perspective. And then nothing really makes a lot of sense, you know. But Luke and I are always trying to bring in like, okay, well, let's think about these topics from all realms. How can we understand this? Like, if we were an angelic being and we were looking at this story, how would we write it, how would we think about it? How would we see it? Yeah. So I love that. I love that.

Just to keep building on this idea of animals and those other stuff. And again, it's just this is kind of speculation. I'm trying to connect some dots. And maybe somebody has written a dissertation on this. If so, let me know. I'd love to read it. But, you know, this starts to make sense of Balaam's donkey. The donkey starts like, sees something that's clearly supernatural with the angel that's in the way. And like, you know, God opens the mouth of the donkey to be able to speak. Well, well, where did that come from?

unless maybe animals already maybe pre-fall, a prelapsarian, they have the ability to communicate. They have the ability to talk. And then the presence of animals in the new heavens and the new earth. Why are there animals in the new heavens and the new earth? And what is the primary means of authentic relationship? Well, authentic relationship happens through communication. So is it plausible that there could be authentic relationship?

Like, I have a dog. My dog's a German shepherd. I swear, I swear, this dog knows my mode of feeling without me even saying, or doing or acting at all. I'll wake up in the morning I'm stressed out. This German Shepherd is like comforting me, you know? Like where does this come from? Is the question that we're at?

And this is humility of just being able to be like, huh, maybe. It's this pride and this stringent, like, they're just animals. They don't have soul. Like, I'm just like, man, that's probably not very fair because then why would God save all the animals at the flood? Why not just create a whole bunch of new animals, right? Why save animals in the flood? Why seem to have a responsibility? Why tell Adam to name animals? We don't name things that we don't love.

Right. You know? So the first consequence in Eden is the shedding of an innocent life. Well, what is that innocent life? It's an animal. The very beings, the very things that Adam and Eve are supposed to protect Stuart and take care of as a casualty for their sin become the first innocent victim. Right. And so you have kind of like this kind of weight that's going on.

And so, and we will see that rebellion has compound impact. Wow. The rebellion is between two people, but there's never been a rebellion in human history that I'm aware of. that does not always have a compound impact. It always impacts and affects innocent people. Well, I think about Job 12 as well, this idea that when God speaking says, but ask the animals, they'll teach you.

Or the birds in the sky, they'll tell you, or speak to the earth, it will teach you. Let the fish of the sea inform you. There's something interesting there. Definitely something there. Plus, I have a dog as well. We have three. You have a Frenchie.

Carl is a Frenchian. He's the pinnacle of sort of God's animal creation. Okay. But I think you're right, Luke, because if you read it one way, it's just a snake. And if you read it the other way, it's just a spiritual being, right? But when you combine it all, it's both. And as Joel said, too, that's like the view of the authorship is right, is that these things aren't separated. That has, and this is what we're talking about, right?

It's this idea of this physical and then also cosmic or supernatural being one and the same. And I remember Heise talking about this and being like, you can't say. separate them. They didn't separate them. Yeah. But we are in this paradigm where we have, and we've also divorced everything from each other, but this is not the way that they, that their paradigm was shaped or the way they thought or the way they perceived creation and, and the heavenlies, right? There was no separation. And it's interesting, too, because Eden itself is this convolence, right? And I think we, it's, it's this, this space where you, the natural and the supernatural natural overlap. Yes. Right. And so you have, it's, I love this man. So, you know, so then there's a

Dave Matthews song. Is that what you're singing, singing some day Matthews? No, no, space between. I love, I love, I love, damn. D.M. B, I bet you Nate can play all on guitar. I love it. So, okay, so, so you've got, you've got Genesis 3 and you've got Cosmic and Earthly, and you see, you see them together. So what's the next, next one? The next one is Genesis 6. Right, absolutely. We skip over 6. Nobody wants to do it. with Genesis 6, right? It's like, this is uncomfortable. We do. Well, we do. And so I won't, I won't take as much time, but I do want to deal with a couple things that I think maybe help. Like, I want to be like practically helpful in some of these conversations that you guys are

having with your friends. And so it's like, hey, in Genesis 6, right, we've got these sons of God. And then you've got a geographical location. Well, the book of like Enok, it lets us know. The impact of this entire situation is Mount Hermann, right? So think about this. In Genesis, one, or Jesus 1, 2, and 3, you have a mountain, and that mountain is Edenic, so we can call the mountain, you know, the Edenic mountain, this cosmic mountain. And God is so committed to his household, not being corrupted, that he seals up the house. He's like, corruption get out, seal up the house, protect it, but keep it safe. And I would argue that Jesus is actually building the city. That's why we get in Revelation that this city garden, the garden city back, there's something

happening right now, I tend to think it might also be the place that the deceased, that when they step into the unseen realm, they actually are stepping into Eden. Like, I actually think it's an actual location. It's a geographical spatial location, which... It's paradise. It's paradise. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's a garden. So I actually think it's a little bit, I actually think it's even more than that. I'm actually working on Silent Saturday right now, a project on Silent Saturday. So I actually think that, and this could be a whole different episode that we do, I actually think that what happens is Jesus does descend to Hades. He descends to the dead. And the reason why in Matthew, you've got this weird passage about all these saints that just show up in the streets, right,

is because it's a transitionary period where once they were held by the gates of Hades, but now they've been transitioned into, and Jesus is ushering them into his place of residence, his home. And where is his home? The garden. Exactly. So I actually think there is a, and this now makes sense of Colossus 113, that we have been transferred from the domain. The Greek word there for domain, it has in mind a malevolent supernatural entity or being place and location. So we have been transferred the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light. I actually think that this is a descriptive verse of what took place when Jesus descends into Hades. And so now we don't have to deal with that.

Like we don't have to go to the gates of Hades. Now when we cross over, for lack of it or like, you know, when that happens, we go to Eden. Like we go to Paradise, Paradis. So we go to the Garden, the Garden City, which is going to come back. So you've got the mountain in Eden, which is protected and sanctified and kept holy, so much so that the garden cherub, cherubim are placed outside of it and it goes away. But then you have a juxtaposition. This is crazy.

You've got a reversal of events that takes place. So if in Genesis 3, you've got the protection of a holy place. In Genesis 6, you've got the corruption of a holy place or a corruption of a georgon. Deseecration. Where is this? Mon Herman. Mon Herman, right? So in Genesis 6, you've got this story.

like the Genesis 6 were told the sons of God. Now, you can, I have on my YouTube channel a quick video on like, hey, here are the three reasons why we shouldn't hold a set-that view. It doesn't make sense. We probably shouldn't hold a divine sonship view or a divinized earthly king ruler view. Kind of doesn't make sense. The third view is the most coherent view, which is a supernatural realm view, right? And so, again, you can go.

Look at, look at punk joel. It's come all the way around. I've come up punk jolt. He's got videos about it. Okay, I'm not sat-thi-old anymore. Mike's grinning. Mike's grinning. He's like, I knew all the way back then.

It was just a matter of time. Gotcha. Yeah. I've been got. Said that no more. And it just for a lot of reasons, right? It doesn't make sense. Like one of the ideas is like the Elohim or human judges.

Well, show me one place, textual evidence where we find that the guardians of Israel were, you know, the judges of Israel were actually like referenced as Elohim over the nations. You just don't have that. It's just non-existent. So you've got all kinds of other issues. But I do want to deal with one that I actually. think this was the one that hicked me up. That hicked me up. Is that the right word? I think I made up a word. This was a hiccup for me.

I combined tenses of speech. It was a singular hick. It was a half. It was a half. It was just got the part part. And then I like, whoop, don't hiccup anymore. And I got right out of it. And this is the one that really got me. Because again, I'm like, okay, does the text say it? And so typically, so like in Genesis six, we're told that they're the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men are these nephaline, right? These hybrid kind of beings. So the primary

objection to this type of cohabitation of a supernatural being is a fact that stated that angels or supernatural beings, spiritual beings, can't reproduce. They can't reproduce. And the defense for this is Matthew 22 in 33, like verse 33 and on. Now, I'm going to quote Mike on this, because this is one of the things that Mike said to me that I'm like, oh, yeah, precision in how we read the Bible is actually really important. Sometimes we conflate what something says to what it actually doesn't even imply. Like it's, right? So here's one.

This is what Mike says, and this is an unseen realm. He says, the text does not say angels cannot have sexual intercourse. It just says that they don't. They don't. Now, this is actually important in the context of this passage. And the context of this passage is talking about the Eschaton. It's talking about the new heavens, the new earth. Well, why not?

Because when you're in the new heavens, the new earth, there's no more need to multiply. The idea of procreation is non-existent, you know, in the new heavens and north based off of what Jesus says. And so this actually makes sense. And so the issue that we have today is in part an issue with a postmodern mind and a demythologizing perspective, which that by itself is super odd, right? Because Christianity literally is held together by this one core belief that Jesus was God, is God, who became man, died, was buried, was resurrected on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, and is right now both God and human. in the heavenly places. Tell me what about that is not both cosmic and earthly. That whole thing is nothing. That whole thing is, right? So again, I'm just like, okay, let's just kind of

keep everything in perspective here. And so like Mike goes on and he says this, that the objection is odd since the interpretation is actually less dramatic than the incarnation of Jesus. Then he kind of goes on. And so there's a couple different options here, but all of these options are really important because the supernatural reading of it makes sense of the Nephilim. And we know the Nephilim are the Gibram, these giants, the Septuagin actually kind of takes a nod at this idea. Go ahead. I can always tell when Nate's, he goes, he does this thing. Big breath. I just know it. I'm like, I know I have. He goes. He did this to me in Costa Rica multiple times. So now I know it. I know he's got something. Sethite. Angels are asexual, you know, can't mate, don't want a mate,

probably even spiritual beings don't have a physical body. And I love these conversations because they overlap. And this is just an ongoing problem with people, especially Christians coming into our space and listening to our show. The alien narrative, the UFO narrative, it's all the same problem for them. But if angels are shapeshifters, which I don't believe they are,

and we've talked about this in depth, you don't have cosmic DNA involved. They would have our DNA. We wouldn't have hybrids. need two different mixtures to have a hybrid, to have giants, to have chimates, all this stuff. How do you get, if you believe that angels aren't physical, that they have, that they, that our realms overlap, where does the angelic cosmic DNA come from? How is that possible? That to me kind of pushes us into this blend of the two. They are physical, but they also aren't

like us. Yeah. And we find evidence of this because you've got the, uh, the picture, uh, with Abram, right you've got these three angelic beings that are human like they're they come in human form and they eat well how do human how do non right like just like astral projected how do they eat how do they eat how do they how do they and then i the biggest one for me is the resurrect to christ the resurrect christ is eating he's walking he's talking he's hanging out he's letting thomas touch weird parts of his body that have been like pierced like you're like well how does how does all of this happen so that So there's clearly some combination, some potential of mixture. So why is it that the Nephilim, and this is the other really big thing that I've talked about,

and we could do whole things on this later, is that the demons of the New Testament are not, they are not the sons of God of the Old Testament. So the demons of the New Testament are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. Well, how do you get disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, unless you have an unholy mixture? Why are they destined to roam the earth? Because they are an unholy mixture. The part of them that is spiritual that they inherited from their fathers, right? That part, I think it drives them crazy.

So I think that they are now roaming the world. They've already experienced what it felt like to be embodied. Now it makes sense why they're trying to embody other. people. It makes sense why they're trying to, and they would rather go into pigs. They'd rather be in something rather than nothing. And they're not building UFOs, is what we say. Yeah, yeah. That's a crazy logical leap to say they're trying just to get into a human, a very basic, so they're scrambling is what I'm saying. Then they're not crafting advanced technology. That just doesn't make sense at all. But that's a whole other story, but I love that. Thank you for kind of

clarifying because it just seems to never end in the arguments in the comments. Yeah. And I think too, like, why is this cosmic rebel? How is this both, how is this both earthly and cosmic, right? Because now you've got these hybrid Nephilim that have descendants. They have children. And so you have this genetic thing that seems to be happening where you're losing some of that genetic kind of purity or whatever you call it of these original beings. And Nate, you know, I have this conversation in Costa Rika of, and we still have evidence, it seems like of genetic breakthrough. Like maybe these are recessive traits where every now and then you've got this breakthrough and you get kind of closer to what it would have looked like and you've got these larger beings.

This is one of the places where Mike and I would have probably departed a little bit more because I'm a little bit more fine with like these types of things. Mike would have been like, yeah, the giants are probably between six and eight feet tall, you know? And, you know, we've talked in detail before. Like, well, wait, we've got these bones of like the ginormous, you know, giant type beings. And so for me, it doesn't bother me as much because it's like you can have genetic breakthroughs. You can have anomalies. We see this all the time in all kinds of other places. And so why

wouldn't we see it even with this? But the main issue here, and this is where I want to connect it back into the biblical text, is these Nephilim, who are referred to as Gibram, who are connected to the Anakim and then the Rafahim, the Anakim are the descendants of these people. So they've got this, they're like this warrior class, kingly class. They can take and they do whatever they want. then they're part of the Raphim, these kings that lived at this time, these warlords that just destroyed everything around them. There is a reason the post-event of Genesis 6 is a flood. There's a reason why it starts with Genesis 6 and the story of the sons of God the Nephilim,

and then all of a sudden you get to the flood. The flood is Yahweh's desire, his design to start to deal with the problem of the Nephilim, because God cares about his human family. and he sees these beings as an unholy threat to his human. This is why the command for Joshua and for Moses was to obliterate them. It was to obliterate them because they're going to consistently cause havoc. Sin, chaos, perversions, all these types of things. They come out of the Genesis 6 event.

And it says the Nephleim were there before and they were there after the flood. Now, we can go into a lot of different details about the nature of the flood. I don't want to get people upset. that. But one of the things that I think people should take into serious consideration is the idea that the flood was, in my opinion, probably a localized flood, right? Like, you, it is very possible to have localized catastrophic, catastrophic floods over the world. And it did not be like the whole world is submerged. This brings coherence to how some of these Nephilim and how there seems to be these other humans that survive, you know, post-flood. And there's Hebrew language here. When it says that the whole earth, the eretz, the, I'm forgetting the Hebrew phrase, but Arets is the land. The whole earth, when it says the whole land is covered, that same phrase is used in other places where it's exaggerative language, where clearly it's not talking about the whole,

it's just talking about what is known as the whole. It'd be like right now, like, I'm going to crush the pizza. Like, I'm not going to actually crush the pizza, right? I'm going to eat the pizza. It's exaggerative terms. And so that's taking place as well. And the last thing. I've seen Luke crush some pizza, though.

Yeah, well, that doesn't surprise me. Very fair. Mexican food is really above that. Okay. Man. Catoes. I've seen them crush the tacos, Luke. Fair enough.

Luke does that. Fair enough. Crush the bourbon. And you don't crush that. You enjoy it. You just sip it. It's an art form meant to be enjoyed. So the, the, um, and then just I'll go back to, and I think this is important.

See, desire, take. This is what's happening in Genesis 6. So what is the genesis of these cosmic rebellions? these earthly cosmic rebellions. I'm arguing for see, desire, and take. At the core of this is idolatry. And this is some of the stuff I get into in my book where it's like this, this thought of,

I deserve this is actually a byproduct of pride. And what pride does is it blinds you. The pride promises you clarity, but it only delivers confusion. And it only blinds you. It makes you self-centered. So my kids, they're like, well, I deserve the new Apple.

what is that thing, the thing that you put on your face? Apple vision. Apple vision. So my kids are like, Dad, I deserve Apple vision. I'm like, excuse me, you deserve what? What makes life, what has happened in your life to make you believe that you deserve something? And here's what it is. They've been blinded. It's like they think that they deserve the house that we live and they deserve the food that

they deserve. And I'm like, you do realize that you don't work and you don't get a paycheck and you don't pay the mortgage of this house. Like, you're not, you don't deserve anything. You're dependent wholly on. your parents for everything, you know? And so it's like this constant fight against this thought that I deserve, that I am owed this. The gift of humility is it actually helps you regain self-awareness without being entrapped in self-obsession. Because the more you're self-obsessed,

the more you lose sight of what actual truth is, what actual clarity is. And then everybody becomes pawns, you know, and you're willing to sacrifice anybody at any time. This is what happens. happens with the Nakash. This is what happens with these sons of God. This is one of the book of Enon talks about like, hey, we know like this is not going to go well for any of us. So let's make a, bond, right? And if one of us goes down, we're all going down. I'm like, think about the absurdity of even making that type of covenant oath with each other. Like, I am willing to lose. Like, I'm willing to play. It's kind of like LeBron James, you know, like I'm willing to play in the finals just to lose. Like, why would you even play? I'm messing with y'all. Please no emails.

If you want to, we go back to unforgivet. Do I think about unforgiven, do with Clint Eastwood? Yeah. It deserves, got nothing to deal with it, right? You know, it's, your idea is fascinating, too, like the idea of swearing an oath for this desire that's gone into entitlement to deserving this angelic human family that they believe they've come to the point blinded by their pride that deserve this. And it is back, and I love this because it does go back to the garden, right?

It's like, the idea behind that is God's holding out on you. Why do you tell you not to eat that? Yeah. Don't you know that, like, why would he do that? Why would he hold that? Why would he keep that from you? Yeah, I have another, I have another speculative theory on that too that can give you, because we're already going to go all the way there on it. Why is it? Why is it that these angelic beings, these rebellious sons of God, once part of the divine counsel, why do they go after this hybrid kind of idea and why today is the enemy, I feel like, so adamant on destroying families, marriages? going out, like all of these issues that we have in our world. Why is that? And I wonder, this is speculation, but I think it makes sense to me, at least in my brain, that in the same way that there

was, there was freedom within the context of limits for Adam and Eve and Eden. You can do all these things, but you can't do this. I have this suspicion that God gave the same thing to the angelic beings. Okay, you can do all these things. You're going to be my messengers. You're going to have a place in the divine counsel. The one thing you're not going to have are your own children. Like, you don't need to have your own children. Here's the one thing that you, and then can you imagine being these angelic beings, being the sons of God that shot for joy, Job talks about this, and they're celebrating, they see all this, then you have a subset of them. They're like, wait a minute, why do Adam and Eve? Why do the human children of God get to multiply? But we don't. That's unfair. That's not fair.

And this, I think, becomes the Genesis potentially for all, like this Genesis 6 issue, the, you know, the Genesis 3 issue with the Nakash. And so I think that's, that's probably what's happening. That's the forbidden, that was the forbidden fruit for that. Yeah. Right. I always think, you know, it's interesting how it's, it's always a twist. It's always a twist of the gospel. It's always a twist of the story. It's never, it's never something that's flat out completely opposite. And I think something that Luke and I have discovered on this is, it is two kingdoms and they each have their own moral code. It's, it's a battle of two moralities. It's framed that way. We know it's light and dark, but the way it's presented is, no, this is a better version of this good version, right? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Like the idea of corruption itself is, the idea of corruption itself is taking something that's very good and inverting it from the inside so that it still presents itself as good. But if it presents itself as good, but it's bad on the inside, it's rotten. It's rotten. And so, you know, there's some song about like the first,

the first bite or something like that. But anyways, it's that same idea. Carmen, is it a Carmen song? No, I think it's first cut. The first cut. Maybe I'm conflating. I do this all the time. Cheryl Crowe. I think you're right. I think you're right. I conflate stuff all the time.

Carmen, Dave Matthews, Cheryl Crow. We were, we're covering some ground here. All right. The last one. The third one. And then, uh, and then, like, so like, what is happening? So two rebellions. We've done Eden. We've done right. And we have, we've had this common theme so far to see, to desire and to take. And then we have cosmic geography that's taking place as well. One mountain that was taken care of held sanctified and holy, another mountain on Mount Herman, which was corrupt. And then you get into a third place. In this third place, you've got a problem because there are no mountains. And as our friend, Tim Albrino would say, that's a big deal, you know? And so this is actually a big deal. I wrote about this in my dissertation. So I'll just

read a little bit about this. It says, as noted previously, I talk about this, this tower, right? Why do they build this tower? They build this tower because they're in the plains of Shinar and the planes have no mountains. The tower is a common mythical symbol. for the mountain of God on which the prime evil the prime evil garden sits. And in constructing a tower, humanity actually manifests the desire to recover their original home

with God to return to Eden. However, look at the language. The desires of the people do not seem to be pure. The inclusion of the phrase, make a name for ourselves, alongside the desire to build a tower with its head in the heavens, seems to indicate pride and an act of

rebellion. The Hebrew word for tower is actually an elevated, struck, that was typically used for protection. The Tower of Babel was a ziggurat, which comes from an Acadian word, that translates as temple tower. So the fact that people are building essentially a temple should cause us to pause as we reflect

on the temple being the deity's abode. In other words, the temple is where the deity has his home. Following this thought, the Tower of Babel was given the name Etimananki, meaning the house of the foundation of heaven and earth. The people attempt to build a temple tower that would serve as the house, of the deity. An Old Testament scholar Clifford commenting on the nature of the function of the

ziggurat says it was more than merely a passageway from higher to lower temple. Rather, the ziggurat itself was a dwelling. So to summarize all of this is you've got the plains, you've got this tower that's constructed. And the reason that they're constructing this tower is because one, they see that there are planes and no mountains. Two, they desire to be with God or to force God to come down. So three, they decide to take it into. their own hands with the construction of a temple tower. And in so doing the exercise, pride and hubris. And then that phrase in Genesis 117 where it says, the Lord says, let us go. Again, there's a plurality here. And it's not talking about the Trinity. The let us language here

is not trinitarian. The Hebrew grammar does not allow for it. It's the council. It's the divine council of Yahweh. So in Genesis 126, where God says, let us, what you could literally have done is, and I think this is probably what happened, is just a copy and paste. You're copying and pasting the Hebrew of 126 and you're putting it right into Genesis 117. So you see here a divine counsel scene. Now, the rebellion. So remember, Genesis, we have to read Genesis 10, 11 and 12 together. A lot of times you read Genesis 11 by itself or you read Genesis 10 and 11 when you strip Genesis 12 out. We need to read these three chapters together. Genesis 10 is the table of nations, which lets us know that people have land, language, and commonality, families.

And then Genesis 11 is this rebellion. Genesis 12 is the Abrahamic covenant. So Genesis 11, the consequence of this rebellion is the diversification of tongues. The loss of the one language pushes everybody back into their own family kind of niche, their own family households, because they have a language from Genesis 10. So that's the only way they can communicate. So God still has his way. See, the people, same thing with Eden, Genesis 3, same thing with Genesis 6, same thing now in Genesis 11.

Even in the midst of humanity's rebellion, Yahweh's purpose is still going to happen. The question is, are we going to be in rebellion and take the hard way? Are we going to be in obedience and take the way of Jesus, right? And so here, what happens for the people is they are now spread out. They're spread out and their family isolated kind of people. And in so doing, what ends up happening, we have to read Genesis 11 in the letter of Deuteronomy 32, 8, and 9, Deuteronomy 32, 8, and 9 referred to by Heiser and others as the Diderotomy 32 worldview, lets us know the aftermath of Genesis 11, that these nations have

been disinherited by God. God keeps Jacob, Israel, as his allotted inheritance, and he, for a time, disinherits the nations of the world, and he gives an allotment of these nations to the sons of God, to the Beneh Elohim. And in so doing, this is stewardship. The goal is stewardship. Protect them, take care of them until I bring them all

back into the family. Well, where's the I bring them all back into the family? This is Genesis 12. The Abrahamic covenant. Where does Abraham come from? He comes from Er of the Chaldeans.

Where's Er of the Chaldeans? Er of the Chaldeans is Babel. It's roughly the area of Babel. So literally, in Genesis 12, God goes into the epicenter of rebellion, and he picks one family, draws them out to himself,

And he says, hey, by the way, you are going to be the means by which all the families of the world are brought back together. The problem is, and we find this in Germany 4, 19 through 20 and elsewhere, that these sons of God go into the third cosmic rebellion. And this third cosmic rebellion is, instead of stewarding the nations, they elicit the worship of the nations. This is the genesis, this is the origin story of the gods of the nations of the Old Testament. This is where we get Baal. This is where we get Mulek. This is where we get Ashr. This is where we get all of these Old Testament deities.

It's not that they're non-existent. It's just that they're not, they're non-supreme. They're not Yahweh himself. And they have gone into rebellion. And you've got these passages where it talks about these are idols and don't, you know, don't worship the idols. Or even in the Old Testament, there's like these passages like they're dumb idols. They don't speak.

They don't write. So what is. Isn't that what Elijah said? Yeah. Are you gods in the background? Yeah. That's a funny one. Yeah, that's the, that's, I love that one. That's Montcarmel with, uh, with Baal. Is he, is he,

uh, is he off the side of the road, you know, going to the bathroom, like, relieving himself, like he must be busy or is he asleep, right? This is an important distinction, again, as you're having conversations with people. What, these phrases are taking into consideration, this thought and this idea that the deities need to have a home. They have to have a home. And so the home would have been these carved images that they would have made. There would actually be a ceremony, and I think you guys have talked about this before, where in the ceremony, the deity would come through the mouth of the carved idol, you know, and that was the residence.

So you could have the idol destroyed, but they didn't destroy the God. It just destroyed its home. And so there's a distinction here where actually it's a polemic. It's this like, hey, use some common sense. If the deity needs a home in order to survive and needs humans to be met, is it actually the god of Yahweh? Is this actually a supreme God? And notice the language of Yahweh, who needs no home. He doesn't need a dwelling place.

He's not served by human hands. It is directly in comparison to these gods of the nations. And so then you have this third rebellion that takes place. And this sets the stage for the rest of the Old Testament. And then in Psalm 82, this is the judgment scene. The judgment scene for all three rebellions takes place in Psalm 82. This is what it says, that God Elohim stands in the Divine Assembly. So singular Elohim, who stands to the Divine Assembly.

He pronoun pronoun allows for this because you've got the singular in the beginning who stands in front of a group of people. Well, so the second instance has to be plural because the first is talking about standing in front of a group of people. So you have the presence of two Elohim. Look at the language. How long will you judge unjustly? This is the language of Judarami 32, 8 through 9, and show partiality to the

the wicked. Selah, provide justice for the needy and the father. This is what they were supposed to do. You're supposed to provide justice for the needy and the fatherless. You're supposed to uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute. You're supposed to rescue the poor and the needy. We could think Mike is 6-8 here. You're supposed to save them from the power of the

wicked. And then this is like Yahweh on a throne giving this command. He's like, they do not know. He's talking about these Elohim. They do not know or understand. They wander in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. And he says to them, I said, you are Elohim. you're all sons of the most high. However, this is the consequence. You will die like humans and fall like any other ruler.

So this right here, this one sentence, makes it absolutely impossible for these sons of gods to be human rulers. It makes no sense for human rulers to have the consequence that all humans already have, which is to die. But a spiritual, supernatural, cosmic being, now this makes a lot of sense. You'll fall like any of the And then this is the most fascinating thing, you guys. At the very end, there's this little parenthetic thought, and I talked about this in Costa Rica, and I want you to think about this scene where you've got Yahweh on a throne, you've got in front of him this divine counsel,

and all these Elohim are there. And then you have a being that's offstage. It's just listening. It's watching this entire thing, right? At the very end, he says, rise up, Elohim, singular Elohim. Look at the language. Judge the earth for all the nations belong to you, Who is this Elohim?

I believe this is the pre-incarnate Christ. The angel, this is Jesus. And here's what Jesus does. Jesus is the solution to each of these cosmic rebellions. Jesus is the greater Adam. That's awesome. Right? Jesus conquers and vanquishes the evil perpetrated by the Nephleim and the sons of God of Genesis 6.

To deal with the division of the families in Genesis 11, Jesus sends his spirit to reunite the families of God. And Jesus on the cross brings judgment upon. the sons of God. Jesus is the answer to these three cosmic rebellions. And now when you see it in that narrative form, it's like, oh man, this starts to really make sense, at least to me. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Yeah. And we all kind of pick up on little pieces of that, you know, in these spaces. You wish you could just kind of shake some of the guys that are so close to that. You know, they're building these narratives out of just little fragments of ancient history, like the ancient aliens and the Graham Hancock's and all these guys, it's just like, they're so close.

So close. They're so close to like all these rebellions and the technology and what they were trying to do and how they were going about exercising that rebellion. Just missing the central piece. Yeah. It's the most important piece. Like the thing that was all hinges on, right? And I love the way you put that early, Joel, with you and Tim. It just hinges on the same thing.

Yeah. It's just the idea you keep the main thing. thing, the main thing, right? And the main thing is Christ. And I love that. I didn't actually even heard somebody too explained all the way, heard it. I remember reading an unseen realm. But the reminder, the Yahweh goes to an aside and says, you know, it's, you're going to do this. And then he does. Yeah, this is Ephesians 2. Ephesians 2, 18 through 22, that you who are once outsider brought in, that Jesus, he crushes, he tears. He tears. down the dividing wall of hostility.

Ephesians 3, 4. It talks about the mystery is now known. What is the mystery? The mystery is Gentile inclusion. What in the world? Do you get Gentiles in the first place? You get Gentiles from Genesis 11 and Durham 32, 8 through 9. This is the first separation of humanity.

I mean, all of these rebellions, all of these moments are telegraphing the need for the Cosmic Christ. It's telegraphing the need for the ascension for the king of the cosmos to take what is rightfully his to bring his family back together. And, you know, it makes a difference. It really does make a difference. Do you think the decision to scatter the nations was more a judgment upon the Elohim or the human or humankind? I think, I think in that rebellion, it was more on humankind. I think this was like, hey, you've really jacked this one up. And so there's got to be a consequence to sin. That's the other pattern. So, but I'm not going to, and this is, this is another pattern that's

that her meets throughout it. That God, gives a consequence, but he also gives comfort in the consequence. So in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve are sent out, God clothes them in skins. Remember, they have fig leaves, but God clothes them in skins. Because Adam and Eve, this is what sin does to you. Right? I talk about this in my book. Sin blinds you from the consequence of your sin. So that when Adam and Eve sin, they're like, I'm going to live in Eden forever. Well, no, you're not. You have no context of life outside of Eden. You've got no context for storms and the winter and the cold. like, and so God does. So he gives them comfort in the same way.

In Genesis 11, I think that God gives these Benah al-Him, these sons of God, as a means of comfort to steward, to direct them to be guardians over these nations. And again, depending on how you view everything chronologically, I think Yahweh is kind of like, by the way, don't make the same knucklehead mistakes that these sons of God of Genesis 6 made. Because we know from 1st Peter, from 2 Peter and Jude that those sons of God are locked up in Tartarus. So the sons of God of Genesis 11, Deutorma 3, 8, and 9 are different cosmic beings than those of Genesis 6.

Those in Genesis 6 are in Tartarus, and they're in Hades. So when Jesus, on what people often refer to Silent Saturday, I don't think it's Silent Saturday. I think Jesus proclaimed the gospel. He's announcing his victory in Hades. And Peter and Judah, it talks specifically about in the presence of these angelic beings, right? in the presence of these angels who are held in bondage.

Well, where do these angels come from? They came from Genesis 6. This is their situation. So the Duraumi 32, 8, and 9 cosmic beings are different. They're actually still out there. Like, they're still the gods of the nations. I just think that they've changed their masks. And now instead of, I think they're still potentially national patron deities,

but they're also working in systems and structures as well. And then Psalm 82 and the cross, this is another really big question that often comes up is, well, can cosmic beings continue to go into rebellion today? My answer is no. I think Psalm 82 is the definitive moment. And here's the deal. What cosmic being in their right mind would have witnessed the impact and the consequence of Jesus on the cross, watch him ascend into heaven and think, yeah, I'm still going to

make my bed with Lucifer, with Satan, and those idiots that screw this up? Like, it's illogical. Like, why would they ever effort to that? And so I think, no, I think Psalmated to you, and particularly this pivotal moment on the cross sets into motion final judgment for the sons of God that are rebellious, but then also continues to keep a path open for humanity to turn in repentance to Christ. Mike drop, baby. There it is.

That's awesome. Thanks, Joel. Dude, I love this. So, you know, Jill, your book is out. Yeah. And I want to give everybody who's been. you know, along those ride with us on blurry creatures, and those, Joel's been a repeat guest.

If you're in Costa Rica, you got to spend some time in the flesh with this wonderful man and his amazing wife. Yeah. You know, you've been so good to our show and so good to us personally. So we're grateful. And with your book out, we want to give a chance for people to point them to where to find it. And some of what you've heard today, and actually a lot of what you've heard in Joel's

episodes across really is a lot of the sort of maybe the big picture stuff that Joel's talking about in this book, the book, the book, which is called The Hidden Peace. Well, that's what I was going to say, Luke, is because I can see how you've kind of drawn it all back to, let's talk about humility. Let's talk about sort of the impetus of all of these rebellions is that moment

when you said, no, I want, I'm a sea and take. And I get it. I get where your mind was going. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, if pride is the poison, then the antidote is humility. Yeah, yeah. Pride is a seductive sin.

The humility is God's grace to overcome it. Share with us, again, where they can find the book. Yeah. The book is everywhere. where you can go to Amazon. I'd love for you guys to grab a copy. And like I said, I think from a very practical standpoint, grab a second copy in hand.

If you've got one friend right now that you're just like, man, I so desperately want to have these blurry conversations with them, but it's just never goes the right way. Maybe the first starting point, and this was for me, and I think maybe Nate and Luke would say the same. The first starting point is actually humility. Like, how do we break and shatter this paradigm? The paradigm shatters.

It breaks to be open to other paradigms. when pride is put away and humility is embraced and taken on. And so you may want to just consider ordering a second copy, handing it to a friend, allowing this to be a discussion point for you guys to kind of walk through it. So it's on Amazon everywhere. And yeah, and if you like it and, you know, you think that it's worthwhile, give it a review on Amazon, an honest review. And that always helps, you know, in terms of algorithms and all that kind of stuff. And for me personally, like, I'll read them all. So I desire to be better. You know, I want to. I want to do better. I want to be a better author scholar. I want to be a better follower of Jesus.

So you guys would actually personally help me in that way as well. Yeah. Thanks, Joel. Appreciate it, man. And thanks again for coming to Costa Rica and spicing up the conversation and just being a good friend and laughing with us. You know, I think that's the most amazing part about blurry creatures, something that I haven't had in other creative realms, as I feel like we don't have to just sit around and talk shop all day. We can be friends. And there's actually a community here. And those people, people want to know you. As you notice, you probably were getting your ear. You know, everyone's chatting at you. And we want to do it again. And who knows, Costa Rica next year,

let's let's, let's, let's, let's chat. Let's go. We had so much fun. And, and I just appreciate the community and the friendship. And it's, it's the, I don't think Luke and I thought that having these conversations would, would sort of birth this, this wonderful community of friends that we have and can't wait for us all to be in the same room together. And congrats on your book. I know that's a lot of work. It's a lot of years. And it's hard because you have a lot of smart friends and you want to put something on the shelf with them. Right. And it's hard in this day and age to write something original and come up with thoughts that are unique. Because everything's been written, you know, and a thousand times over. Yeah. And the hidden piece is out everywhere right now.

So go get your copy. Joel, Doctor. The Good Doctor. The Good Doctor. is in the house. You should have had camo shirts come with the book. Next time. Consult the marketing. Consult the marketing team. Maybe we do like a limited edition release or something for the book that has like a blurry chapter just for the blurry versus people and it'll come with a camo,

camo shirt. So if you guys want that to happen, email these guys and I'll make it happen. Blow them up. And also probably most importantly, as soon as you can, we need an invite to to the house of your parents so that we can we can take our shoes off and drink chai and eat indian food because that's dude you had i haven't been thinking about anything since you said that so none done we love you we love you guys thank you for thank for all you do for our space man we are we're grateful and and again thank you for carrying and picking up this mantle that that might

carry i mean i do think that you know with you there's a ton of responsibility in that and you are you're doing an amazing job of carrying that, carrying that, and picking up that legacy and then making it you're out. And so I really feel like that's, you know, these are the things you are doing. Yeah. Want to encourage you in the job that you are doing. I know our mutual friend Mike would be proud.

I'm proud of this little punk kid that showed up in his office is now picked up and is carrying that legacy. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Appreciate it, guys. 100%. All right, buddy.