Blurry Creatures - EP: 229 Old Earth Creation with Hugh Ross

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

Discover how scientific discoveries and biblical truths intersect as Hugh Ross explores the evidence for an ancient universe and Earth's history. From geological formations to cosmic phenomena, delve into the complexities of creation and the harmony between science and faith. Whether you're a curious skeptic or a seasoned believer, this episode promises to challenge your perspectives and ignite meaningful conversations about the wonders of our universe and the Creator behind it all. Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials.

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And it's because they work directly with ethical factories, cut out middlemen. So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's the real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floated shirts to light and air to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio.

If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer, refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. Well, what happened in the early part of the 20th century is when they saw the initial evidence for Big Bang cosmology. And the astronomers who were not theists says, we've got to get rid of this. They immediately saw that it was just like what the Bible was teaching.

And so they said, and they also realized it made the universe way too young, only billions of years. And they said, this isn't going to work, and we're going to try to salvage naturalistic biological evolution. And so you've got mathematicians like Sir Arthur Eddington saying, this is repugnant. It's philosophically repugnant. We've got to get rid of this beginning of the universe. But then the evidence became overwhelming. There's no doubt that the universe has a beginning. There's no doubt that it's only billions of years old.

And so you have philosophical consequences. But yeah, I think you're referring to certain Christians who want the universe to be only thousands of years old. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. Joy to join. The Smithsonian, if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning, associated with the following. meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, welcome back to blurry creatures. We have a fun one today, Luke. We got Hugh Ross here, astrophysicist, author of over 20 books, our podcast.

I don't know how much you know about us, but we talk about all the weird stuff in the Bible and all the weird stuff that happens today and in ancient history. And so a lot of that is going back to Genesis, going back to ancient history, talking about the megalus, pyramids, the giants. and these creatures that people see today, as obviously we're called blurry creatures, but we're excited to have you today. You're from Sandemus, and we have this 80s vibe on our show. Well, I mean, he was actually a Canadian,

and he hasn't apologized to us yet, but I'm waiting for it to happen. Okay, because they love to apologize. I mean... Grew up in Sandemus, I guess. You were there from the 70s. No, I grew up in Vancouver. Okay, that's right.

That's right. Yeah. But we always make, like, 80s jokes on the show. We actually had a phone booth from Bill and Ted at our conference here at Conduit Church, and we made all of our guests come out of the the phone booth like Bill and Ted. So you were saying that the...

It pre-roll. Yeah, you were saying the Circle K is still there. Circle K is still there. Phone booth is gone. And we live about a mile from the Circle K. There's not many astrophysicists you can make Bill and Ted's jokes with, and that's why I think that's pretty cool. I mean, you know, with an astrophysnance, perhaps you could put the phone booth back together

and make it functional again. There might be a project out there. Well, the time machine would be a problem. But welcome to blurry creatures. We kick it off all the time. Like, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? That's the question we've asked. everyone from, you know, theologians.

Well, you're asking the right guy. Let's go. I was raised where Bigfoot was invented. They called it Sasquatch. Yeah. So British Columbia is a source of all the Bigfoot stories that you hear. Yeah. And what Rudy got it going was in the early 1960s, the engineering students at the University

of British Columbia, they had a guy who was 6'8 and 300 pounds. So they came up with a Bigfoot suit for him, and they created a, shoes made it a plywood that were two feet long. And then they put them up in the mountains north of Vancouver, in the wintertime, had them tromp around in the snow. They had a big circle of engineering students around them because they wanted to make sure he didn't get shot by somebody. And they took all kinds of blurry photos of them.

And that Rudy got Sasquatch up and running. Blurry photos, dude. This is... Yeah, and we do a lot of... Like we talked to the premier Bigfoot scientist, Jeff Meldrum, early on in our show. And he's got all the casts of this creature. And I think a lot of the things we do on our show is we go for the data. We try to be more scientific.

We don't just bring on the weird stories. And we do that a little bit too, though. Well, yeah, we do that. But I think that we are data-driven. And I think there was a lot of paranormal shows that don't really want to get into. So how come you went with Bigfoot? That's a data-free thing. Well, talk to Jeff Meldrum.

He's got the casts and he's like the premier foot expert in the world. And he was saying like, look, I know how to look at footprints like nobody else in the world. And he's got like, what is a couple hundred casts of this creature. He's 10,000 in his office. And he has a Bigfoot butt print, which is our favorite thing to ask. He says that somebody casted where he sat down. So we got both cheeks at the same time. All right.

So we try to, you know, prove the case that this creature is out there. and it's not just a hoax. There are hoaxes. There definitely are people out there who are trying to hoax people, but it's still been going on for hundreds of years and you have all these different names in Native American culture for this creature,

and it's amazing to us how many times we'll bring somebody on talking about something unrelated to Bigfoot, and they'll have a Bigfoot story. They'll have seen him, had an encounter. Just for show, there's one in Franklin, of all things. Dude, next door has been wild. You don't live here.

but you know what next door is, like, where you have this, like, social media for your neighbors, and you have to, like, opt in. It sounds really dumb to explain this, but essentially it's like all your neighbors are in the same little group. So there's, for Franklin, someone sent us that somebody in Percy Priest Park up here by the lake had this encounter. I thought they had a Bigfoot encounter or whatever, and so they posted, this is Franklin, Tennessee. And then last night, it just randomly sent Nate, somebody posted a UFO experience. And I text, I'm like, what is happening here? Yeah.

Number one on Next Door, which is supposed to be like just people complaining about their neighbors and, you know, the people that cut their lawn or paint or painted their house or do a good or bad job, whatever. It's really just people. It's really just a lot of people complaining. But it's starting to get weird out there. You know, everybody in the neighborhood is seeing something out here. It feels like stranger things. Well, you see stuff, but where's the hair?

Where's the bones? Right. That's always the question. Yeah. I like it. Where's the body? Well, I mean, we've tried to tackle the skeptical part of the, you know, the story, where are the hair, where's the bones.

I think that's the hard part about doing a show like ours because I listened to a lot of paranormal shows before we started this podcast, and I wanted better answers. And one of the big things we talk about is the Genesis 6 event, where you have these hybrid beings, and then you have this whole narrative giants in the Old Testament. And where do they come from?

How does that possible? And, you know, we try to look at all the data for the giants existing through things they might have built. And then you have the Smithsonian showing up when these things are being unearthed by farmers around all North America. And it's difficult because I think,

and we could probably talk about this today on this episode of, our listeners are like either hardcore conspiracy theorists who don't believe, they believe everything the science says is a lie. And then you have this other group of people who think that the Bible and science can't go together,

that science is the ultimate. source of truth. And I like kind of how Jordan Peterson puts it. He says, you know, the Bible is the framework of which all truth comes from. This is the foundation of truth. This is how we know what can be true and what can't be true. And I don't even know where his, where his heart is in terms of his salvation. But he seems to be on this kick lately of going through the Bible and trying to put these things kind of back together. And I love we were here Sunday listening to you. And I love that you kind of are marrying science in the Bible again. And I think that sometimes our show is a little bit more in the conspiracy realm, and it gets a little weird.

But I think we talk a lot about heaven and earth and how can spiritual beings be, are they physical? Are they not physical? These are the topics that we talk a lot about on our show, because I think Luke and I often talk outside of the show that there's like a kind of a gnaustic view of the spiritual realm. It's not somewhere. And when people start, like, sharing their stories, it feels more and more like, this stuff is interacting. Heaven and Earth are colliding. Right. They are overlapping each other.

And how do we make sense of that? And I think it would be really good to talk about the science of how heaven and earth sort of connect, maybe some thoughts on Eden, and sort of the beginning of the story that we're all sort of confused about constantly as Christians. I would say too, I would, I think your testimony is the perfect place to start. I know that you told this weekend and it's probably probably a little bit ad nauseum because you did this. You spoke three times this weekend and did the same presentation. But I think it's so powerful because you are an extremely educated, intelligent person who didn't start out as being a Christian. In fact, it was the flip. You started out as a young budding scientist, even as a teenager.

And then hanging out of the Circle K. looking for, looking for answers. Can you tell us how, because what Nate said and what I love about your work, and you've written 23 books. And I'd like to touch on the last one, too, at some point. I've read why the universe is the way it is in a matter of days. I love those books. I think the way that, and that's what I want to get into with you as well, is you have this very interesting analogy of the book of nature and the book of scripture. The book of science and the book of scripture.

Those two things are not at odds. but and I'm going and I'm kind of I don't want to steal your thunder here at you but can you talk about how you got to a place as someone who works in you know laws of thermodynamics and physics and you know all of these super scientific things astronomy you know measuring distances and stars and all these different things and how you ended up as a person of faith because those two things in our society are always seem to be juxtaposed right you have this either believe in science or you believe in in religion, I'll just say, but that's sort of the two roads that it feels like society wants to give you. And those two things seem to be very separate or intentionally separate. And yet, and when our show, we talk about how the ancients didn't divorce the natural from the supernatural. In fact, the ancients, and you read Genesis in the Old Testament, they had very much a supernatural worldview. In the same way, this is my analogy, I feel in this post-academic, you know, this post-enlightenment academic paradigm we live in now, We very much divorced science from, you know, from the scripture or from religion, if you will.

And so I'm not going to talking more, but I would love you to share your story because I think it's an amazing testimony of someone who really searched out the answers. And then you came to the conclusion you did. Well, I became a serious student of astronomy and physics at age seven. That's incredible, dude. That is the first off. That's how it is. That's how it is, yeah. I was writing low poems at seven.

Dude, Nate was watching Ninja Turtles. No, but every year I was growing up, I would look at a different sub-discipline of astrophysics. And when I was 16, I spent a year studying cosmology, the science of the origin of history of the universe. In 19th century, astrophysics, the idea was that the universe was eternal. And then what happened in the early part of the 20th century, they began to see that the galaxies were moving away from us. And this was the birth of the Big Bang theory for the origin of the universe. And, you know, when I was in my teenage years, there was a lot of debate going on. Is it Big Bang?

Does the universe oscillate like you see in Hinduism where it reincarnates? You know, is it a hesitating universe? Is it a steady state universe? And I could see that the evidence was favoring Big Bang. And if it's Big Bang, there's a beginning to the universe. If there's a beginning, there must be a cosmic beginner. So it was at age 17. I began to say, hey, I want to find that cosmic beginner.

Didn't really know where to look. I thought, well, Emmanuel Kant's a good place to start because he's considered the father of cosmology. So I read his critique of pure reason. And I said, you know, this isn't really coming together. It's not fitting the astrophysics that I know. I looked at René Descartes. And the high school I went to was filled with refugees

from all over the world. And so people said, hey, you need to read the Hindu Vedas. You need to read the Quran, the Buddhist commentaries. So I began to go through all that, Zoroastrianism, Baha'i, and everything that they were saying was not fitting what I knew to be true about the universe. And when I say I didn't really get to know Christians until I showed up at Caltech. I did see two from 30 feet away when I was 11 years of age, and these were two businessmen that came into a public school,

put two boxes on our teacher's desk, didn't say a single word when those boxes were Gideon Bibles. There you go. So it was at age 17, I began to read that Gideon Bible and realized this book isn't like the other books I've been looking at. It actually invites subjective testing. I discovered the scientific method in the early creation text in the Bible. Can you, yeah, can you explain that?

Well, the public school I went to, I got taught the scientific method in grade one, grade two was in all 12 years. And so it was something that I could see immediately, like just looking at Genesis chapter 1, it begins with a statement, this is the point of view from which you're to interpret the six creation days. That's step one in what we call the scientific method. Don't interpret until you first establish the point of view. Step two, don't interpret until you establish the starting conditions. Genesis 1, 2 gives you four initial conditions. Step 2. Give you four initial conditions. Step three, don't even try to interpret until you determine what happens when, where, and what order. Those are the six creation days.

The next step is, look at the final conditions, see how they differ from the starting conditions. Then you make an interpretation. When the scientific method, your first interpretation is lightly held without emotional investment, then you want to test it. And the thing I noticed about the Bible, it had more than two dozen lengthy texts that dealt with creation. the other holy books would have one. The Quran has three, but the Bible's got more than two dozen.

And so I said, I got all these opportunities to test my interpretation by looking at what Job says, Psalm says, Proverbs says, Isaiah, 2nd Peter. And then nine years later, I found out why the scientific method is in the Bible. That's the origin of the scientific method. Back in the Reformation era, that people were looking at the Bible for themselves.

They saw this. They applied it to their scientific research. So there's no accident that the scientific revolution exploded at a Reformation Europe. That's wild. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for?

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Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for three-month five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See MintMobile for details. Do you believe that how we got that method came from heaven itself? Like we didn't, you know, did God give that to his people?

Well, something you see in the other holy books is they basically appeal to subjective testing. You know, if you have a warm feeling, you know it's true. The Bible was distinct. It actually exhorted objective testing. You know, Paul says, put everything to the tests, hold fast to that which is good and true. And multiple times you see the Bible exhorting objective testing. Don't believe it until you first put it to the test. The test of spirits.

Test the spirits, right? Yeah. So you read the Quran. You read the Vedas. So I don't want to point this out to our listeners. Like, when you're talking about you, you investigate, you actually read all of these holy books looking for something in a faith system that can align with. Well, here's the way I put it to the test.

I said, you know, what I see in the universe, everything is consistent, it's harmonious. Yeah. It looks like it's a single plan. Yep. So I said, if there's a book that comes from the one that created the universe, it'll have the same characteristics. There won't be contradictions. Everything it says about science and history will be correct. And so I looked for mistakes.

So when I went through the Quran, for example, I said, okay, do I see any contradictions here? do I see any statements about future science that I know are not true or future history. And I did that with all these different holy books. And I got to the Bible thing I noticed. Number one, it's talking about geography, history, and science all over the place. Way more than the other holy books. It's like it's begging you to put it to the test. And unlike the other holy books, everything it has to say you can prove is correct.

It's like Paul says you're without an excuse, you know, because you can see that. And as an artist and someone who's always been drawn to creating things, I always find it interesting that when, you know, a lot of, a big portion of humans when they read the Bible, they don't want to give any credit to someone creating this. But yet, if they created something, they sure as heck would want credit for what they made. And, you know, as an artist, you see, you see the handiwork.

And for me, as a young age, I thought, even if I didn't know anything about this, I can, this is designed. These things are put together and there's ecosystems and it feels magical. And I don't know why some people just the magic is out of the equation. Well, you know, right on the first page it says we're created in the image of God. Yeah. It's interesting how we create in the same manner that God creates. Yeah.

I mean, when you look inside the cell, you see these amazing machines. You see piston engines. I mean, you see rotary engines. The only difference is they're better than the ones that we make. They don't fall apart 10 years down the road. Yeah. So, suss this out for me, Hugh, because so you land on the Bible and you find it inerrant. And this is your new book, right?

I'm fishing there. But I think a lot of Christians would have a hard time saying, oh, the Big Bang was the theory. It is the theory at the time prevailing for astronomers, astrophysicists. And that has got to be at odds with the creation. creation story if you're a Christian or you believe the Bible. So how did you find those two things can agree on? How does that? Well, what happened in the early part of the 20th century is when they saw the initial evidence for Big Bang cosmology. And the astronomers who are not thea says, we've got to get rid of this. They immediately saw that it was just like what the Bible was teaching.

And so they said, and they also realized it made the universe way too young, only billions of years. And they said, this isn't going to work and we're going to try to salvage naturalistic biological evolution. And so you got mathematicians like Sir Arthur Eddington saying, this is repugnant. It's philosophically repugnant. We've got to get rid of this beginning of the universe. But then the evidence became overwhelming. There's no doubt that the universe has a beginning. There's no doubt that it's only billions of years old.

And so you have philosophical consequences. But yeah, I think you're referring to certain Christians who want the universe to be only thousands of years old. Yes, there's this young Earth idea, right? And it's pulling from the scriptures and genealogies and... Well, my appeal to them is, hey, we only differ by six zeros. It's only a factor of a million. And you look at the difference between both young earth and old earth creationism and atheism. And it's like, hey, there's a huge way greater difference.

Right. Yeah, we have some friends that we have it on the show, and they differ. And one's a theologian and ones are research. They differ on things. But what they say is that what they agree on is the hinge, is the biblical text and the gospel. Right. I think what we've discovered on our show is there can be a hybrid of these ideas. And we have a lot of people have black and white views of these things, but the earth can be old.

but humans might not be that old. We were put here later. Or, you know what I'm saying? Like, we can rescue some of these, I'm here or here, and be like, well, maybe they're both right. Well, in that sense, you know, my young Earth creationist friends believe that Adam and Eve was specially created relatively recently, thousands of years ago.

I say, hey, that's our view as well. We believe that all of humanity is descended from one man and one woman that God specially created. Yeah. No, I personally have the creation of Adam and Eve during the last Ice Age. So we're talking tens of thousands of years ago. They're talking thousands of years ago. But, hey, now we're only differing by a factor of 10.

Right, yeah. And I would argue that if you look at Genesis Chapter 2, it has to be an Ice Age event because it tells us that there were four known rivers that came close together in the Garden of Eden. Well, the only location where those four named rivers come close together today is 200 feet below sea level. It's in the southeastern portion of the Persian Gulf. But during the last ice age, sea levels were 390 feet lower. So that would have been dry ground during the last ice age. But that's why we haven't heard, we've talked a bit about

Eden with theologians. We talked about it at an sort of ad nauseum with Tim Mackey from the Bible project and his ideas of. Because he said it was on a mountain though. That was the difference. I think he believed that Eden was on a mountain. Well, the Santa Ana Mountain is really difficult to get four rivers to come together. Well, that's what that was, that was the weirdest part about that, that episode. But we do see, we've uncovered that there are a lot of megalithic structures underwater. Yes. There are, there are some in the, like the Bahamas in the Caribbean, there are some in Japan.

Even one, we talked about off the coast of California, there was, there was some discoveries of these ancient, you know, what they were building. And it's under, how do they build it? Well, there's a lot of water over that. Well, it's above, it's underwater now, but it would have been above water back then. So, yeah, I mean, we see evidence for human habitation during the last ice age. It's not just, you know, the Middle East. But I've just written a book on Noah's Flood, making the point that there's now new research that shows what we see in Genesis 10 and 11, where humans are living in one locale

and God's scattered humanity over the whole face of the earth. What's interesting is you get the same date for the migration into and colonization of northern Europe, southern Europe, Western Africa, Australia, Tasmania, New Guinea, Borneo, the Philippines. All of that happened at the same time. But that date is 42,000 years ago. Oh, wow. So, I mean, you're in the last ice age, which means Noah's flood would have to happen a little bit before that. Why do you think Christians have a problem with Old Earth? Well, I think the big reason why is they struggle with the concept of death before the sin of Adam.

And so they blame Adam for all sin, but it's basically they think all life. And I keep reminding them, if you look at Romans 5, it says, death through sin came upon all people. So it's not talking about plants and animals. We're the only species that can sin. And so Paul is being very careful to say, no, this is. is the initiation of human death, we're not talking the death of plants and animals. And also notice, it seems to be a controversy for people live in cities. If you live in cities, you don't see the advantages of carnivorous activity. But people who live in rural areas

recognize, hey, you get rid of the carnivores, the death rate of the herbivore skyrockets. Because there's nothing to check the disease. There's nothing to check the overconsumption. That's like Yellowstone. Yellowstone was a great sort of microcosm of that. When they got rid of the wolves, things went haywire. The whole ecosystem was messed up. I wanted to, can you walk through your sussing out? Because this is the whole story.

Like you read through all these holy texts, you find that your views in science are backed up by the creation story, and this is how it works. And I know this is also the point where a lot of Christians diverge, because it's, you know, if you're a young earther, seven days is seven days. But we know that there's a lot of sort of ambiguity about that word in the entirety of scripture. And when you walk through talking about the Hebrew and the way that you see creation from a scientific and also from the biblical standpoint, I think it's a compelling case that I would love for our listeners to hear you sort of briefly to walk through that if you, if you've comfortable

with you. Sure. Well, I wasn't raised in church. I didn't know Christians. So when I looked at the Bible, I was just reading it the way it was on the page. Right. I didn't even know there was a controversy in this issue until nine years later. You're like, wait, what?

What's going on here? But, you know, as I opened it up, I said, okay, this word day must have at least three distinct literal definitions because three are used in the text. Creation day one is using the word day for the daylight hours. Creation day four, it uses the word day. You know, it's contrasting seasons, days, and years. That's day is 24 hours, but Genesis 2-4 uses the word day for the entire creation history. That's day as a long period of time.

And then I notice that the first six days end with an evening morning statement. And I didn't know what the Hebrew words for evening and morning meant, but I knew at a minimum that evening morning phrase was telling us, each day has a start time, each day has an end time. day two ends and day three begins so it's six consecutive periods of creation then when you get to day seven there's no evening morning phrase which means we're still in the seventh day and you got psalm 95 in hebrews four old and new testament both stating we're still in god's seventh day and that's the day when god doesn't create and i remember telling the audience on sunday that was like a light bulb moment for me

you know, when I was 11 years of age, I read this book on evolutionary biology, and I said, it doesn't work. We have all those evidence for new families, new orders, classes, and file it before humanity, and none of that after humanity. And when I read the Bible for the first time, I said, this answers the fossil record enigma.

How do we know it was before? Well, okay, when you look before humanity and the fossil record, you can see evidences. evidences for the appearance of new body plans amongst the animals, new phyla. You see the new classes, the new orders. It's all over the fossil record. But as soon as you get to the human era, you see none of that. We do see some evidence for new species appearing.

But that's about where it stops. And then from a naturalistic perspective, you would say, okay, we got gene exchange, natural selection, mutations, and epigenetics. This will produce small changes in a species over time, and eventually you might get a new species. And if you wait long enough, you get a proliferation of species that produces a new genus. And if you wait much longer,

you get a proliferation in genera that produces families. Families will produce orders, orders classes. Last of all, you get the phyla. But as I explained on Sunday, when you look at the fossil record, it's exactly the opposite. The phyllists show up first, the species show up last.

And atheistic, you know, a paleontologist look at this and said, this is not at all what we expect. It's like the more we study, the Avalon and Camberon explosions of life, the mass speciation events, it's the exact opposite of what we predict from a materialistic perspective.

Something beyond the material must be an operation. So things aren't evolving. So the Darwinism is, is trash. I mean, I don't know how to say it. It's bad science. It's a bad theory. It's bad science because Well, I will say this in credit for Charles Darwin. He said, look, if my theory is right, these are things that you'll discover. And what I find fascinating is that he made a prediction. Okay, the animals that look most like us will also be the most like us in terms of mental and intellectual capabilities. He said, test it. Nobody tested it until the 21st century. And what they

discovered it's the chimpanzees are not the smartest non-human animals it's crows and ravens are the smartest non-human animals they're way smarter than the big apes and they hold grudges too they know they know you they know they know you know you know I mean to them they know so as I mean can we let's walk us through creation here then you know as a as a guy was in the studio a lot made a lot of songs recorded a lot of songs you start somewhere and you need those parts and those layers in order for it, the song to come together. And when you read the Genesis story, you see that God is really specific on how he

sort of adds these layers to creation. What do you see there? And do you see how it's a scientific way that he does this? Because you need, as we know, that you need other animals and plants need each other. Well, that's what got to me when I was 17 going through the Bible for the first time. It's like, everything is correct. It's all in just exactly the order we would expect from a scientific perspective. It's like you get in Genesis 1-3, let there be light, and I says, okay, and you've got the spirit of God brooding over the surface of the waters.

I said, that sounds like the origin of microbial life. But not until day five, do you get animals? Not until day three, do you get any kind of vegetation? And so it's like, this is what you'd expect. it takes billions of years of microbial activity in order to transform the chemistry, the surface of the earth, so the plants and animals can exist.

And so, yes, we would expect the trees would be late, the animals would be late. And then you get into creation day six. It mentions three different categories of land mammals. And they're the three categories that are crucial for launching human civilization. So it's like, last of all, God created these land mammal categories that would help us launch civilization.

The proof of that is when humans came into Australia, they wiped out 94% of all the large body burden mammal species. They couldn't get out of the Stone Age. We need those animals in order to launch civilization. So it's like God provided over the history of Earth with everything we need, not only to live, but to have global civilization so that we can take the good news of how we can be redeemed from her sin to all the people groups of the world.

It was his intent all along that we had a civilization and technology, but that required certain plants, certain trees, and certain animals. Do you, you know, when I'm hearing you describe this, it kind of sounds like the modern scientific narrative is similar. You know, they believe it was a long time and these things evolved. And Christians say someone signed the painting. Yes. and there is a signature on there,

and modern science just can't put that signature on the painting. Why is that? Well, they do for the universe. I mean, I've got 50 books on what's called the Anthrophic Principle, almost all of them written by people who are not believers. And they say, we look at the universe. We see overwhelming evidence that has been designed to make possible the existence of life. But most of them stop at the level of the universe.

And so what I did in design to the core is say, we don't just see it at the level of the universe. We see it in our super galaxy cluster. We see it in our galaxy cluster. We see it in our galaxy. We see it in our star. We see it in the planets that accompany Earth in the solar system. We see it in the asteroid and comet belts.

We see it in the interior of the Earth, the interior of the moon. It's ubiquitous. It's on all size scales, which means that there must be a creator that was intent on creating a planet on which humans can live and throw. where they can have the technology and see what happens here. We're now bringing the creator up close.

At the level of the universe, you can keep God at arm's length. But when you're talking, our star, our moon, our planet, the life on planet Earth, now we have, it's very clear. This is a God that's paying attention to how I live my life. And a lot of scientists, and not just scientists, but a lot of people in general, they're uncomfortable with a God being that intimate because it means that this is a God that's evaluating my life. Yeah.

And so if you want to be autonomous, you're going to be wanting to deny all this stuff. And you see this in Romans 1. They know the truth, but they engage in self-imposed ignorance because this is threatening their autonomy. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet.

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and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Do you think that's because scientists are trained to feel that way about things? Because you have to kind of be like a Supreme Court justice and you just have to be like,

I'm devoting myself to the Constitution, and I can't bring my feelings into this. Well, scientists are just like everybody else. And so, you know, there are a lot of believers in the scientific community. I mean, it's a myth that all scientists are atheists. Yeah, but it's like that, you know, that you have to get out of that. You can't, you know, you can't change the data because you feel a certain way. You know what I mean? Well, we scientists are, you know, trained to be objective to put our feelings aside.

but if you're truly objective, it's clear there's a creator behind all this, and it's a personal being. And it's a personal being who wants intimate contact with this creation. So if you're truly objective, that's the conclusion you come to. But not everybody comes to that conclusion because that threatens your personal autonomy. Yeah. You're saying that each day was a very, was a long period of time in which God created and continued to create. In each of these, it feels like a, like you're a big. building a layer on top of the, so God creates the universe,

and then he's hovering over the waters. And I know you, you talked about how the point of view changes, right? So you have this big macro point of view of God saying, you know, let there be light and separating the light in the darkness. And then the next scene is from the surface of the earth underneath the clouds. And I really like the way you pointed the difference there, but in these days, in the Yama, I think is the Hebrew, there's, you contend that there's a, based on the

scientific record and the fossil record and and that these are long periods of time but each time God is creating in these days in these in these epochs or whatever whatever you want to call it the he's set in the table for ultimately creating humanity right but he's he's it's like he's making a like a recipe I don't know how to put like you start with this and then you're making the base for the soup and then you're adding in and all these things build upon each other to allow for humanity to to be able to exist

yeah we're talking six long finite periods of time and like in astronomy our data comes from the past because it takes time for light to travel from the galaxies that we observe and so you've got people like Freeman Dyson saying we look at the universe

you can't avoid the conclusion the universe knew we were coming it's like you can see this being step by step by step prepared for the entry of human beings at the one time window when humans can exist. We couldn't have existed earlier. We can't exist later.

We're living in that narrow window of time and which the physics of the universe and the earth allows us to live and thrive. And so the time window is going to close, but the time window is going to be open long enough that we get to move from this creation to the next creation. And that's actually, I wanted to ask you about that before we got that, but I was going to say,

I want to just reinforce that what you're saying is, is that as this process of creation, is happening. This is not evolution. God is actually creating the animals as fully, like their full, their full expression, right? Well, a good analogy is watching someone build a home for you. They put the framing up first, and they put the drywall on, and then they put the electrical in. And so we got God doing the same thing. He's building a home. And we have Jesus saying, I'm going to go away and build a home for you in the new creation. And so again, it's a step-by-step process. And we're created in the image of God notice, we create the same way.

Do you believe that you could go to heaven right now if there was a way, there was some technology to get there? Is it a physical place? Well, the easiest technology is just to die, right? True. Here's the quick way. Well, I say that because sometimes in my church people say, you know, I want a perfect healing. They said, do you really know what you're asking for?

Yeah. You're asking for immediate death so that you can be perfectly healed. So like at Jesus's baptism, you know, it opens up. Yes. And you see, we see it. Right. And God says, is my son, you know, and is this someplace we can go to? Well, we know there is, just based on the physics of the universe.

We have space-time theorems that prove that space and time are created, which means there has to be a causal agent beyond space-time matter and energy. So there clearly is a realm beyond this physical universe. The physics proves it. The Bible is misstating it for thousands of years. years. We got Jesus rising bodily from the dead. No one can deny that historical fact. And so it's like, and hey, we do realize that we're not just physical beings. You can't explain the operation of our mind. Our brain is not adequate to explain everything our mind does. There has to be

something beyond the chemistry and the physics that explains what we do just with our mind. Like a software. There's a software in there running. Well, that's more than software. I mean, our brain is the hardware. We can see the software operating within the brain, but we don't see the programmer. And so there's something beyond. And physicists have devoted, you know, thick books to trying to understand.

Can we explain the human mind with the physics that we know of the human brain? And the answer is no. There really is a spirit nature to us human beings. Now, the plants don't have that. And you know, what's interesting about Genesis, it uses the word to create three times. First for the universe, the second time in creation day five for solish animals. And it's referring to these animals that are endowed with mind, will, and emotions. French bulldogs, definitely.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely French bulldogs. And you can't explain that emotion from physics and chemistry and biology. But then it says that human beings, it uses the word create again. We're not just physical and solish. spiritual. Now, as I was mentioning on Sunday, God designed these animals to form relationships with a higher species, us human beings. He designed us to form a relationship with a higher being, God himself. There's an order. Yeah. I wanted to ask this, you're sitting with an astronomer

and a physicist, there's stuff, there's some chapters in your book and why the universe is the way it is that talks about the necessity for the laws of physics and the laws of thermodynamics and electromagnetism and these things that God is intentionally created that hold us. And God being a God of order, can you espouse a little bit on how those things, why and how those things hold our lives together? Well, I wrote that book because the only argument that atheists have for their atheism, they say, all powerful, all loving God would not tolerate evil and suffering for his creatures. Yeah.

I said, someone needs to write a book about the physics of evil. So that's why the universe is all about, why the universe is the way it is, basically making the point that, yes, thermodynamics, gravity, electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces, that permits physical life to exist, but those laws of physics are oftenly designed so that evil can be eradicated quickly and efficiently, while our free will is actually enhanced in its capacity to receive and experience love. And the proof of all that is the moment that evil is eradicated.

There's no more thermodynamics. There's no more gravity. There's no more electromagnetism. A second proof is that we notice those laws of physics were to restrain the expression of our evil. That's something I taught my sons when they were growing up, saying, look, if I don't discipline you, the laws of physics will. The laws of physics will be a lot harsher.

It's like you see this in Genesis chapter 3. The moment Adam and Eve sin, God says from now on, you're going to have to do more work. You're going to experience more pain. And the problem is when we sin, we ruin things. And it takes extra work, extra time, and extra pain to undo the damage that are sin and evil as cause, and none of us biologically enjoys extra pain, extra work, or wasted time.

So the laws of physics motivate us to avoid evil and pursue virtue. But we quickly discover we do not have the resources to do what the laws of physics impel us to do. And this is God saying, look, I'm here to do for you, what you can't do for yourself. Come to me. And when I read the book of Job, I realized this book is the oldest book in the Bible. Job figured it out. Smart guy. He figured out.

Yeah, he's a smart guy. He figured out that the physics of the universe is designed to show us, hey, if you go down an evil path, there are consequences and they're not pleasant. And he also figured out, I don't have the resources to do what I know must need to be done. This is a Bose moment. It's 10 blocks from the train to your apartment door. 10 basic, boring city blocks until the beat drops in Bose clarity. Streetlights become spotlights as you strut down the sidewalk,

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Yeah, I like John Eldridge. I actually baptized John Eldridge. Let's go. He's still wild at heart, man. Oh, yeah, still wild at heart. I know Chuck was kind of early to a lot of the stuff that we talk about on our show. We talk a lot about how this science and technology was given to us, like, outside of, you know, what God intended, that these sons of God exchanged women for technology. I know that, like, it's briefly mentioned in Genesis,

but what I think is interesting is that you see this explosion in technology, which obviously is the science behind it. How much of that have you explored and what do you think? Well, Chuck, I mean, I got to know Chuck. Yeah. He likes to speculate. Sure. But often the speculation goes way too far.

That's our show. Yeah. We love that. But, yeah, I was explaining to Chuck, I mean, the ancients didn't need any help from supernatural beings to do everything that they accomplish. It's in my latest book, Rescuing Inerrancy, where I got a chapter saying, The Ancients weren't stupid. They built thousands of stone observatories. So there's no problem for them to build pyramids and other structures that were accurate to an arc-minute precision. they had the technology to pull that off.

They didn't need any help from extraterrestrial beings. That's the ancient alien theory, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they knew the world was spherical. They knew how far away the sun was. They knew the stars were bodies. I mean, they were not dumb at all.

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. What are some things that they did? Scientifically, you can look back and be like, yeah, they knew. They knew stuff that we didn't know today. Well, we now know that the, because when I was in, school, we were taught that the ancients believed the world was flat. The truth is, no matter where you go in the world, they all knew that the world was spherical. The flat earth hypothesis was actually invented in the 18th century. It was invented by European philosophers who were intent

on discrediting Christianity. So they came up with this idea that the ancients believed that the world was flat, that they believed that there was a metal dome over the earth with water above. And I make the point, hey, in Egypt and Mesopotamia, they were irrigating their agricultural land. They knew Archimedes' principle, that there was a limit to how high up you can pump water. So they knew the dome thing wasn't correct. And one of the things I put in my latest book, Rescuing and Erick, what's interesting about humans, we engage in fantasy. And that's counter to our best interests in terms of basic survival. You want to spend all your time making sure you've got food in the table and shelter and all that.

And yet even the most primitive societies, they spend an in anordinate amount of time on fantasy. And all of us enjoy that. And so I say, hey, the ancients wrote about this dome over the earth, but that was part of their fantasy literature. It was not part of their science literature. So I'll give you a quick example. How about 15 centuries from now, we have archaeologists,

doing their work in the ruins of Hollywood. And they find these film canisters and say, boy, people in the 20th century were sure dumb. They thought dinosaurs were from the earth and people were making pets out of them. And so, you know, they could easily presume that the Flintstones was actually a science documentary, but in fact, it's just fantasy.

And so it's crucial we distinguish between the fantasy literature, the ancients, and their science literature, and their history literature. Something you said that I wanted to flush out because we almost got there with day seven of creating, right? And so we know that, and you mentioned this, when God creates the new heavens and new earth,

when the new Jerusalem, we talk about sort of all that stuff comes down. You said that all of the laws of physics, thermodynamics, those things will be in gravity, et cetera, will cease to exist in this new space. Can you talk about your ideas of what the second, your ideas of what the second creation is going to sort of entail because it's interesting I love the way you put that like day seven doesn't end

and God is resting he's not creating right so that's and I think that's super interesting because we we don't see the things that we would have seen in the previous days right like there's just it is it is as it is until for six days God creates on the seventh day he rests the seventh day will end when his work of redemption is done And what I find interesting is that our Sabbath is a day we put aside to focus on the most important issues of life.

And what I noticed in the Bible that says that God began his works of redemption before he created anything at all, which implies everything that God creates is for the purpose and making possible the redemption of billions of humans from their sin and evil. That's incredible to think about that, right? You're like, God knew it was coming, and so he intently designed. He intently designed it with redemption in mind. It's amazing, yeah. And what's really amazing is everything we see in the universe, all of its events, all of its components, is designed to make possible the redemption of billions of human beings. In fact, I'm telling my secular peers, look, I know you're not a Christian, I know you're not even a theist, but if you will do your scientific research from a biblical redemptive perspective, it'll make you a better scientist.

You'll be more efficient in making discoveries. based on the principle, everything that we see is designed for redemption. And of course, my goal is that once they see that it works, it makes them a better scientist. They say, gee, I think I better pay attention to what this book, the Bible, is saying, about what I need to do with my life. What do you think this new creation looks like, then? Well, I think the fundamental point is this day of rest is going to end.

God will create again. Jesus said he's going away to prepare a place for us. There's an eighth day of creation coming. And for that matter, maybe God's got a whole bunch of creation weeks on his calendar planned out. Who knows? Awesome. The amazing thing is he says, I'm going to use redeemed humans to manage my new creation. And they'll be teaching the angels.

And they'll be managing everything that God creates. And yes, when you read Revelation 21, it says there's no death, there's no decay. Nothing decays. That means no thermodynamics. And then it talks about light where there's no. shadows or darkness. This isn't electromagnetism. It's a completely different kind of light. In fact, it says, we'll all glow with light, and God will glow with the brightest light of all. So it's like everything's going to be radiating some kind of non-electromagnetic light.

And you mentioned the New Jerusalem. I mean, Revelation 21 describes it as an enormous structure. A cube or a pyramid with corners, and it's 1,500 miles. And it's 1,500 miles. on each side. Yeah. And as a physicist, I can tell you, if there's gravity, anything that big will be forced into a spherical shape. This is not spherical. It's got corners.

Yeah. So we're talking about no gravity. And it's like, okay, if nothing's going to decay, gravity will make things decay. I mean, if you live long enough, your chin will begin to pull down towards your belly. Right. Yeah.

Other things sag a lot, too. A lot of things will sag, right? We don't know. I don't know about that yet. It's starting, baby. Hugh, what do you think scientifically changes when sin enters the scene, like, about Adam, the creation of self? Well, it tells us in John 318, it says,

cursed is the ground because of you. It's not that God changed the ground. He didn't change in physics. He didn't change the earth. It's humans that were changed. And because humans are now sinners, when they work the ground, they spoil the ground. The ground doesn't produce like it should. We see this today.

Farmers are abusing the soil that they're trying to get that food from, and so our abuse makes it less productive. We abuse the animals instead of taking good care of them. We abuse them, and they become less productive for us. So, yeah, what changed was human beings. And we see that explicitly stated in Jeremiah, where God says, hey, you people change your mind all the time. but I'm a God that's immutable. I don't change. As proof, look to the laws that govern the heavens

and the earth. As they don't change, I don't change. So the physics has been intact since God created the universe. They'll remain intact, according to Romans 823, until the full number of humans that God intends to redeem have been redeemed. When that happens, the laws of physics will have fulfilled their ultimate purpose, and God will replace the laws of physics with different laws of physics. I think he's even going to replace the dimensions. We're not going to be constrained to a single dimension of time in the new creation. I don't know about you guys, but when I gave my life to Christ, I thought, gee, my name's near the end of the alphabet. I'm probably going to have to wait several million years to have a private conversation with Paul or Moses or David and

realize, wait a minute, I'm wrong. In the new creation, we're going to be delivered from linear time and be able to experience geometric time. So billions of us will be able to have a simultaneous private one-on-one conversation. What do you think changes about humans then scientifically? If creation's cursed and it's still fairly what it was, what about what changed about a human being? Well, what changed about human beings, is that we now are in rebellion against God. And so we were not taking instructions from God. I mean, God says, hey, I'm making you human beings managers.

You're to manage the planet for your benefit and the benefit of all life. But because of our sin, we say, hey, we're going to put our benefit above the benefit of all their life. Or I'm going to make it my benefit, but it's not going to be your benefit. So we begin to express a selfishness to a degree that spoils it for everybody. Do you believe, like, genetically we changed, though? Like... I don't think we changed it genetically. Okay.

I mean, what we notice is that the moment that Adam and Eve sin, he kicked him out of the garden, and he sent two angels to prevent them from having access to the tree of life. The tree of life was there to reverse the effects of thermodynamics and gravity. Okay. So it's like, that's why I think Adam and Eve sin, relatively quickly because, you know, if they had waited 40 years to sin, they would say, gee, I noticed a little bit of decay here. I better go to that tree of life and fix this.

But the fact that they saw no need to go to the tree of life tells us they probably sinned relatively quickly. That's what I was going to ask. I was going to ask if you thought, and that's actually the answer. But I was going to see if in the garden, the laws of nature, if you also, thermodynamics, that was different. But it makes more sense. that there was a source, right? That they could sort of, I don't know, regenerate or not age. It's the fountain of youth, right,

where they eat from the tree of life and they don't die. But, I mean, would that precipitate that we were, because that's before death entered the world, right? Well, we could decay but not die, maybe, is that? We could decay, but getting access to the tree of life, we could reverse the decay. And so that's why God says, hey, we've got to stop them from getting to the tree of life

because they'll live forever physically, but be dead forever spiritually. And so God's goal was to use physical death to deliver us from the far worse consequence of spiritual death. So there was some sort of, are angelic beings dying at a slower rate than humans then? Well, notice there's no redemptive opportunity for the fallen angels.

When they sinned, it was permanent, because they're already in an eternally existing state. And so that's why God rushed to ensure we didn't get acts as a tree of light. He didn't want us to be in the same horrible spot that the fallen angels were. It's an act of mercy. It was an act of mercy saying, hey, notice he loved us so much. He even was willing to have his own son be killed on our behalf. Yeah.

I know. and we talked about that a little bit on the show, that, you know, it seems like some people have a little bit more of a Gnostic view of Eden. It's more like, like you said, fantasy, ghostly. It wasn't actually an actual place, metaphorical. No, I think it's a real place. It was subject to the same physics that everywhere else here on Earth is subject to. The physics was no different.

The only difference was it was planted by God. It's a lot easier to take care of a garden that someone actually fixed up for you in the first place. Yeah. And then there was that tree of life in the middle of the garden where they say, hey, if you ever notice any decay, you can go there. Do you think that, okay, if we have this longer time period and the Earth is much older, were there other humans existing around Adam and Eve when they were in Eden? I don't think so. We do know there were bipedal primates, but every one of those bifes. No, not Sasquatch.

Neanderthals. He was out there. Neanderthals, yes. Come on. Homer Reckis, yes. Well, I mean, you talk about Sasquatch. There's been speculation that maybe

some of the Neanderthals survived and that's what Sasquatch is all about. That's go. All right. Well, some people say, you know, there was like, you know, there's language that seems to suggest there were, Eden was set apart.

With Cain and marking cane. And there's people that have an idea there as pre-ademic people groups. Well, for what it's worth, I got a whole chapter on the Nathelum in my book Navigating Genesis and an Appendix, and you might like this. I got a piece in there called the Physics of Basketball. Hey. And the physics of basketball is that your ability to sink a basket,

give an equal skill, goes up with a square of your height, which means a seven-footer should get twice as many baskets as a five-footer. But what you notice in the NBA is that once you get a square of your height, get above seven feet, their scoring ability drops. And Seth Curry is not tall. Yeah. Well, the problem is that you lose mobility when you get to that height. And so you're probably aware there was a big feud between Kobe Bryant and Shaquille and

Shaquille. Yeah, here we go, Hugh. You know what was the course of that? They were good friends. What was annoying to Kobe Bryant, he had to wait for Shaquille O'Neal to lumber down the court. He was way more mobile and it's like, I'm going to sink the basket if you're not coming down here fast.

There's a lot of pride there too. Unless they had some sort of genetic. Well, that's my whole point because once you get above eight feet, the loss of mobility is really severe. And what we notice in the Bible, Goliath, even if he use a short cubit, he's nine feet, nine inches tall.

And it says he carried at least 250 pounds of weapons and armor into battle. no human at that height would be able to do that. And he was able to fight. And so it's like there's something supernatural about the Nephilim. And then you got Og the King of Bashan. He had a...

It's 13 foot bed. 13 foot bed, six feet wide. He likes his big beds. He likes his big beds, yeah. Hugh, what would you say is something fantastical that you believe in, that your peers or people in the field of science would say, that's crazy. Because, I mean, I think on our show, I've heard so many stories. And if some of these are true, you know, I've got to make room for them.

Well, where I get it is that, you know, I was an amateur astronomer before I became a professional. And so, and this goes back to my teenage years. And so I was the one that had to process all the UFO reports. So I wound up becoming an expert on UFOs without any intent. They just said, hey, you know the night sky, you process the reports. And what I noticed is I was very skeptical about UFOs. I thought, oh, they're all natural explanations or there are hoaxes or that secret military activity.

I could explain 99% of what people reported to me, but there was a 1% residual that I could not explain. And I'm not alone. There's over a dozen physicists who've devoted at least a decade to studying what are now called UAPs. Right, they've changed an accurate on us in the last couple of years. Keep changing the acronym, right? Well, those are supposedly non-government, and then the UFOs are government, you know, so that's... Well, what I can share with you is there's about 2,000 documented cases where multiple observers see a UAP going through the atmosphere and going through at a high velocity, 5,000, 10,000 miles per hour. No sonic boom.

Yeah. No heat friction. Yeah. And they actually crash into the earth. you go to the crash site, you see a shallow crater. You see melted snow. You always see damaged vegetation, but there's not a single artifact to recover.

No debris. Every time? Every time. No debris. What do you think about Roswell? Because they found the craft. Oh, I've been to Roswell. What do you think about that?

It's a great tourist place. I mean, everybody dresses up like a UFO being. They got flying saucers everywhere. Sure, but I mean like, so L.A. Marzuli is like an understudy of Missler went there and he took a metal detector, found pieces of metal. And then you have Bob Lazar who... Well, here's the problem. Saying there's elements.

Nobody's... They talk about these artifacts, but nobody can produce it. Well, that's... That would be advantageous to our government, right? Well, for example, I've seen lunar rocks brought back by the Apollo astronauts. I've seen them up close. Did you keep one? No, I didn't keep one.

But I had a friend to actually handle one of them. He had authority to handle one. So there's no doubt that, you know, we've been to the moon. We brought moon rocks back. but there's no museum that shows a piece of a UAP. What would the problem of a physical craft created by an angel be for you? Well, that's where I'm going. Okay.

The fact that we see a crater and damage vegetation tells us this is a real phenomena. It takes something to make that crater to damage that vegetation. But the fact that we don't hear a sonic boom, there's no heat friction, there's no debris at the crash site. It tells us we're dealing with something non-physical. Now, when I was at the University of Toronto, I briefly had Carl Sagan as a professor. Or they're good janitors and they just pick it up.

Yeah, but 2,000 places and nothing. Nobody can report anything. Nobody can produce an artifact. But what that tells me, we're dealing with non-physical reality. And where I get it from my peers is I say, there's no such thing as non-physical reality. but as a Christian, I know there is something non-physical and real. We got God beyond space and time, creating the universe.

The Bible tells us that God created two distinct species of intelligent life. Humans that are constrained by the physics of the universe, angels that are not constrained. And the Bible tells us these extraterrestrial beings are given the property to come into our realm and leave our realm. We can't go to their realm, but they can come to our realm. So I think we're dealing with an angelic phenomenon here. And when you look at the close encounters with these UAPs, we realize this is not beneficial. In every single instance of a close encounter, it's harmful.

So I think we're dealing with the fallen angels. And hey, you were talking about Sasquatch earlier. I mean, if you go to Ireland, they talk about the leprechauns. Ferrys as well. Ferrys, yeah. This stuff has been going on for thousands of years. It's not new. And so we shouldn't be surprised at these. And when we notice is these angels, they can appear in any physical form they want. I mean, we had, you know, Abraham actually giving dinner to two angels. They were eating. Well, do angels have a body? Well, they can take temporarily a physical form. So they can appear as an animal. They can appear as a flying saucer. They can appear as a leprechaun. Can they take over an animal, or are they becoming an animal?

Shapeshifting. Because shapeshifting sounds like they're magical. They have powers beyond, it seems like God's created order. They're doing whatever they want. I mean, I've encountered people that have been possessed by demons. Yeah. And this is where a demon comes inside a human being and takes over the body of the human being or the brain or whatever.

Well, I've seen that. So, and they can do that with an animal. So what I read in the Bible about a talking donkey, I said, well, you know, that's within the realm of possibility. Or it's back to the order of creation, right? And we can, maybe at one point we could speak to animals. But you know, as an astronomer, one thing I can rule out, we're not talking beings like ourselves from another planetary system. Because we astronomers are actually focused on getting spaceships to the nearest planetary system. It's only four light years away.

But we've already figured out the laws of physics will not present. permit a spaceship bigger than 10 centimeters across. So we're talking tiny spaceships, and even then, and what we're looking at is sending a thousand spaceships that are that small to the nearest planetary system, knowing at least half of them will be completely destroyed before they get there.

But we'll have enough of them, they'll be only partly destroyed, they will get back meaningful information. But it is a 50-year project. It's a fleet of paper airplanes, kind of. Just like the golden record. they sent out in space. Yeah.

Remember that? No. What was on it? Wasn't that that project? Was the Beatles or something? There was that mission. They put the Golden Record. It was Viking.

So, because Vikings left the solar system. Yeah. And it was Carl Sagan who said, well, we're going to leave the solar system. We have to put a message on this thing in case aliens find it. Yes. They put music on there, though. What do you put on there? Was it like a mixtape?

Oh, they put a number of things on. Like the BGs? What was it? Solar system. Yeah, what songs made it on the Golden Record? There was one song, I forget which song it was. It was a song that Carl liked. Well, Hugh, let me ask you this.

If you got to pick the songs going on the Golden Record, what would you have put? Yeah. Well, I come from the family of musicians, but I'm not a musician. So you're asking me, you're asking the wrong guy. What songs do you like? If you had to put one song on there? Well, if I had to pick one song, I'd probably pick the Brandenburg Third Concerto. Look at this guy.

Yeah, I love it, dude. He's like, we're going to put something complex. We're going to wow these guys. I think there was some classic. and there was some modern and they sent it out there. I just thought that was fascinating as a musician, that that even became a thing and they sent it out to space. Hugh, I have maybe one last question here,

and that would be, in the new creation. What are you most looking forward to in that sense? If we're not constrained by dimensional or quantums, I guess you'd say, and not constrained by laws of physics and thermodynamics, and you can sort of put yourself there, what are you most looking forward to in that sense? What I'm really looking forward to is being delivered from linear time and entering geometric time. The idea of having intimate relationships with billions of angels and people and God simultaneously,

that's a mind-blower. So do you explain geometric time to us real quick? Yeah. It means being able to relate in at least two independent dimensions of time. So what that means is I could have a trillion simultaneous relationships one-on-one as if we're just talking. just the two of us going on simultaneously. Impossible in one dimension of time, but you can do that in two or more dimensions.

It's kind of like, if you've seen Interstellar, it's kind of like the Tesseract, you know, that scene where he's kind of... You know what, I love about interstellar? All the equations in the background were correct. Really? Do this guy. Let's go.

That's Nolan. I mean, that's how he makes his films. The story was weird. I mean, it violated the laws of physics, but the equations were correct. I mean, I love how he can take such an intense. topic and mind-bending things and make it, you know, entertaining for the average person. Because we're not smart enough to have a conversation with you, but somehow we managed to do that.

I don't know how we snaked our way in here. Yeah. Here's the thing is that we have to be in a single dimension of time now. Sure. Because if we weren't, evil would run out of control. Yeah. But if evil is not a problem, we don't have to be constrained to just one dimension of time. And this is why Paul says no one can think or imagine how great and wonderful it will be.

It's mind-blowing to think that we could have a relationship with one another that's better than the very best marriage that ever existed on earth, and we can have that with billions of individuals simultaneously. I mean, that's a mind-blower? Is that why they booted – is that why those that fell are booted out of heaven, essentially? Not just like they are in open defiance, but the idea that evil has to be ejected from the heavenly realm. that's I mean, evil will exist but it'll be completely isolated.

But it's contained here, right? It's contained here. Hugh, this might be there's like open up a whole can of worms, but when you, when one of my thoughts is when I think about creation, I think about created order

and doing this show, I've kind of, you know, the list of characters kind of grows. What does it mean to you that Jesus is the only begotten son of God? What do you think about that?

He was the first. first to be raised bodily from the dead. Yeah. So he's the first of creation. Yeah. Because he could be raised bodily from the dead, so could we. But, you know, John 1 is very explicit. The sun has always existed. He has no beginning, no end, but he is the first begotten, the first to be literally raised bodily from the dead into eternal. All things through him, by him, for him. He created everything. and so that's wild dude that that the often we've talked about and all the physics and astronomy

and astrophysics that that you've spent your life study and written 23 books about that christ created walked here and he was the creator of all of that that's the mind-blowing thing the guy who created literally everything that exists came and became a human amongst us and offered a do for us and he's just building chairs and stuff he just thought he was going to do something humble like just be a carpenter right i mean yeah yeah that is a my you could live there and just try to unwrap also blows me away that you know he had four brothers he had a mother he had sisters and yet in front of a large crowd that included his family can any of you accuse me of sin i mean you're not going to lie to your mother right yeah right i mean my mom knows that's not going to work he

always cleared the table she knows most of the bad things i did sorry mom yeah always cleaned his room cleared the table and it was nice to his siblings. He didn't make his bed though. Did Jesus perform miracles when nobody was looking? What do you think? What do you think? I don't know. Well, he says he humbled himself and lowered himself, took the form of a human, and he

always went to the father to do anything miraculous. So, I mean, he kept himself in a humble state. The question was because there was a father-son relationship, and that's something that Christians debate over to this day. And I think when you start to look at creation, the intentionality behind it, everything, you see a father-son relationship. And in humans, that is the, one of the biggest problems in our society is a broken father-son relationship, all these problems that happen. And the more the show has kind of explored these ideas, the more I understand that.

You know, that's what I've always wanted, and that's what I want to give to my sons. And that's a huge, a huge narrative then and now that there is a family. There is. And none of us as fathers really do an adequate job. Yeah. We don't. It's difficult.

What a gift it is, though, Hugh, right? I mean, I have a son this other day. I mean, we were just talking before on the pre-roll, like it became a dad at 40. You did it as well. There's a whole paradigm. This is total not blurry creatures taught. But there's this whole paradigm that opens up

where you get a glimpse of how our father feels about us. And I don't think you get that unless you're a dad. When you see that and you see your son, you know, my son's two now. and you just realize the lengths that you would go, you know, for him. And then you go, God feels like this about me, but. Well, let me give you a word of encouragement. You're a lot younger than I am.

When they're teenagers, they see all the faults in your fatherhood. Yeah. When they hit their 20s, they see all the blessings of your fatherhood. So stick it out through their teenage years. 20s, that's a little early. I think mine was 30s. 30? Well, yeah, some wait until 30, but eventually you get put up on that fetus.

Oh, I have this amazing story. changing when I just came up my Facebook memories I was changing my firstborn son's diaper and I feel like it was just the moment that I've never he looked at me and he said thank you thank you daddy for taking care of me wow and I was like who we are who are you how is this possible my my second kid came out as bam bam and he destroys everything so it's totally different but my first was like I I'll never forget that moment and I was like how did you even think to say that and even notice that I was doing this. It's incredible. That was like God's love to me in that moment of just, this is insane. This whole thing where this whole thing feels fantastical. And I love that you can weave science into the awe and

wonder of what it means to be a human and how the story has been wild since the beginning. And when day seven gets wrapped up, it's going to get even crazier and God's going to create again. Well, it tells us in Psalm 19 that we got two books, the book of nature. the book of scripture. Yeah. And it actually exhorts every one of us to be a scientist and every one of us to be a theologian. So I tell people in our church, don't leave it up to theologians. We all need to be involved. We all need to be theologians. Let's go. We all need to be scientists. It's way too much fun. And I love that you just, you put them back together. And that's what I think I really like, really appreciate and love about your work, Hugh, is that you take these two books, you talk about in

but you put them back together and say these two these two things are not in conflict they do not they do not cancel each other out they do not negate each other in fact they affirm each other these two things are actually you know they are part they are the two halves to to the story and and I know I want to give you a chance here at the end I know you have a new book out um to kind of talk about the new book because we are an interesting time where you know we we do live an interesting an interesting era where things are separate. We live in this sort of post-enlightment paradigm where people, it'd say it's, it's science or religion. You know, and you're here saying, no, we're putting these back together. But you've written a book. Both and. Yeah, you've written a book, your most recent book,

about the inerrant nature of the Bible. And if you want to, I just want to give you a chance to tell her all this is what you got going on. There was a team of theologians that came to me and says, Hugh, you need to write this book. And you just write, you're 23 books. So I know it's not you say you don't play golf or fish. Or fish. So yeah, you just write books. What a legacy, man. I love that.

Well, these theologians are basically alerting me to the fact that in seminaries, there's a walk away from biblical inerrancy. And the reason why they're saying, hey, we can no longer defend biblical inerrancy. The science forces it. It says, Hugh, they're not scientists. You need to write a book. They're attacking you personally. So you need to defend yourself.

So I wrote this book basically making the point, God gave us two inherent witnesses, the book of nature and the book of Scripture. And I kind of use a legal example. You know you can get a verdict if you've got two independent witnesses that corroborate one another. And so that's what we have. The book of nature, the book of scripture, they overlap, they corroborate. And so I'm basically writing this book not just for theologians, but all Christians saying, hey, the latest science makes us. stronger case for biblical inerrancy, not a weaker case. And yeah, the book, if really is inerrant, then we know that God is speaking to us, and he's speaking clarity to us. It's not

the Holy Spirit partnering with failed human authors. The Holy Spirit inspires the human authors to write stuff that's totally inerrant. Yeah, that's awesome. Love that. I mean, you're doing doing the Lord's work. So it's been a thank you for this time. Thank you for like sitting down with a couple dummies and explaining the mysteries of the universe. in ways that we can understand. I can tell you're not dummies because you're asking all the right questions. I appreciate it.

We're going to send you some Sasquatch material. And shout out to Conduit Church here for having us, hosting us, and their staff, and you guys have been amazing to us over the years to let us do our conference here, and you guys are incredible people. You brought you, Ross, in to speak. And I think your message at this point, right?

And I just want to iterate this one more time. It's so important to, like, to, it can be yes and it doesn't you don't have to pick one of the other in fact science and and and the bible are harmonious in their in their relationships and the bible says that all that all of creation testifies to god and to the to the to the greatness to the majesty of god and i and i think that you're doing you're doing the lord's work so how can our listeners connect with you what's the best place to find you well reasons dot org is our website and hey If they want free chapters of my books, reasons.org slash Ross.

That's right. If they want free books. I'm just kidding. No, no. If they want free books, we don't give away the book. We do give away chapters, though. I get it. And you actually write what is either a biweekler or every other week.

You write an article. It's called Today's New Reason to Believe. They'll find it at reasons.org. And the blog series is called Today's. Yeah, today. So every two weeks, I put it an article. You're busy? Thank you. Hey, no stopping. The Ross train, right? We're not stopping.

I'm older than you, so a time will come. Just by a little bit. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast. Thanks for helping us unpack some of these complicated questions and busting our brains a little bit. It's been a pleasure, guys. I mean, I love it when you ask the right questions. It's great. Yeah, it's hard. It's a little intimidating. Yeah, it's like smarter than 10 of you. Yeah, I was a little nervous, honestly. just because I mean, I so appreciate you work. And I remember reading, I was reading your book.

And my wife's asking me about it. And I was like, I'm going to try to explain this. Really, he was just talking about all these crazy science stuff that just matches with the biblical narrative. And she's like, oh, cool. She's like, what about more? I'm like, I don't have any more. I can read it for you, lie by line. Yeah, yeah.

Well, take care, man. And thank you, thank you again for spending some time with us, Warren. I appreciate it. Very welcome. Thank you. Yeah.