Blurry Creatures - EP: 246 The Book of Enoch with Tim Alberino

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Get ready for an electrifying episode as we welcome the legendary Tim Alberino! Join us as Tim takes us on an extraordinary journey into the ancient world surrounding the history of the Book of Enoch. Discover the hidden secrets about how celestial beings rebelled in heaven and interacted with humanity, and the profound prophecies that have captivated scholars and truth-seekers for centuries. Whether you're a seasoned researcher or new to the world of ancient texts, this episode promises to intrigue.  Get our book of Enoch now on Amazon! https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com & Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials. So we're moving in.

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So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's the real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floan it shirts or light and airy to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio. If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer,

refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. Why the son of man, why when Jesus walked around and throughout Judea calling himself the son of man, why that title was so important to the Jews and why it offended the Pharisees and Sadducees. You cannot explain why Jesus referred to himself as the son of man. You cannot explain why that was his preferred title if you are only drawing on the canonized Old Testament.

But if you take the book of Enoch and you understand who this son of man is predicted to be, what he represents, then you realize why they had to crucify him. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right and bust the paradigm, It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermann event.

And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Blurry Creatures strikes back. That's right. Today we are excited now. It's our Book of Enoch is in the world. We have Tim Mabnerino on the show this week talking about the Book of Enoch. and our book of B'i knock with Tim.

He wrote an awesome commentary and the intro to the book is available now on Amazon. There is a link in the description of this show or you can go to blurriercreatures.com and click on the banner. Thank you guys so much for supporting this podcast. We hope you like this episode

and maybe get a copy for you and your friends to read through. We're going to go into this episode about some historical context about the book. Ask some good questions. but again, send our show notes and on our website. Hope you guys enjoy the book. We worked hard on it to make sure this is the most error-free version

and it has an original artwork and all the good stuff. So thank you guys so much. Let's get Tim on this one. All right, welcome back to blurry creatures. Luke, we've been talking about this for three plus years. We've been talking about the Book of Enoch. A lot of these concepts that are only found in the Book of Enoch. And we've had a lot of people reach out to us,

Hey, which version? Which version of Book of Enoch should I get? and then Luke's like, let's put out a blurry book of Enoch. Let's get, let's work with Tim and we'll do it. Yeah, you're right. We've been teasing this for a while, Nate. We've been talking about, we're doing a book. We're doing a book with Tim.

And so this is, this is the book. And this has been a lot of, a labor of love, if you will, been a lot of heavy lifting on the part of Tim Alvarino and also on our part to put out what we think is, you know, cream with the crop, the top, the top tier translation, formatting. And then, of course, Tim has, Tim has done commentary on the book of the watchers. which, as you know, if you've listened to our show, is really the meat and potatoes of Enoch. It deals with an expose on the Genesis 6 event. And, you know, we've had episodes on Enoch real early on, actually, with Jed Payne from church and other drugs. It's kind of talk about, you know, how interesting that this piece of apocrypha is and, you know, where it sort of fits in everything. And, you know, everyone from Dr. Michael Heiser onward, scholars of Dr. Judd Burton and to pastors like Doug Van Dorn to the Uncomfortable Timothy Aborino,

I've talked about the importance of this book in not only from historical context, but also from a biblical context, as things like First Peter and Jude quote directly from this book. So at the very least, the Book of Enoch was something that was not only widespread and well known among the ancients and those who read the New Testament, as well as more than likely a lot of those in the Old Testament. But we know that from the Dead Sea Scrolls and Discovery at Qumran that this was the second most copied scroll for them. Now, of course, that's a microcosm, but this was a set-apar community of scribes, and they believed it to be of enough importance that it was the second most copied book that they have discovered in that trove of manuscripts. So very important, too,

as well when we're talking about, you know, the things we talk about on our show and the supernatural aspect of the, in the reality of the world we live in, and the realms that they're... Yeah, a lot of context. A lot of context. And so very excited. to be releasing the book. Very excited for people to get their hands on this book. Hey, there's fresh artwork in there too, Lou. That's right. Now, yeah, I almost got to that. There's our own Nate Henry, labored overdoing some really cool artwork along with these scenes from the book of the Watchers that Tim then provides commentary as we sort of unpack perhaps how this really occurred and what it may have looked like to the ancients. And so, welcome back to the

show, Timothy Albarino. What a journey. You know, we are three plus years into blurry creatures. And we started somewhere crazy with you and it's been unbelievable to be to spend time with you to see your work and the timing of things as it was if we look back at 2023 and the House Oversight Committee on UAPs as we could have barrel on to to disclosure bear on you said yeah exactly that's for you Nick I just feel like we're at a point where it it is so relevant to the things that you wrote about as you unpack the scriptures and also the post the post-human paradigm as you talk about in birth, write your book. But just grateful for your friendship as we navigate in this place and to kind of get to get to do some of these things alongside

you. It's been a privilege. Welcome back to the show. We're talking about the book of Enoch today and excited to do that as we release our joint efforts in our own release of the book of Enoch. It's always fun to be back with you guys. Yeah, over the last couple of years, we've just, our paths have been crossing a lot. And I was actually working on. I was working on a book of Enoch. I had been wanting to produce one for years because just like you guys, I get a lot of people from my audience who are asking me all the time, probably in a weekly, at least a monthly basis about the book of Enoch, which version should I get? How trustworthy is the text? And it just occurred to me that I just got to produce a book of Enoch.

That way I can just point people to this one that I know is a good copy and is good commentary. and I was interfacing with you guys one day and realized that you guys were working on the same project. And we had the exact same idea. We had the exact same desire to create a copy that could be definitive for our audience, but also that had some unique elements, specifically these concept scenes. And so when we discovered that we're both on the same track in regard to the book of Enoch, we just decided to do a collaboration rather than both of us produce our own books of Enoch. it made a lot more sense to collaborate.

And so we've begun what I think is a very exciting collaboration between the three of us in the development, not only of the Book of Enoch, but also something we're calling the Nephilim series, which is going to be a continuation of ancient texts. So very interesting things we have planned. But the book of Enoch is the first installment, the first volume in what we're calling the Nephleem series. So this is very exciting. It's been laborious for us to put this together, but it's a very exciting. also been a labor of love for us because we really want to produce something nice for our audience,

for the blurry creatures audience, for my audience, and give them, as I said before, a definitive copy of the book of Enoch that the three of us feel really confident in and that we can reference. And that reflects also, it's very unique. I want to stress that this is not, there's no other book of Enoch out there like this book of Enoch. this is the first of its kind in that it reflects a perspective of the anti-deluvian world that is unique to the conversations that we have had together on your show. And so we wanted to take the conversations on blurry creatures and sort of translate them into a book of Enoch with conceptual art and conceptual scenes. So we've created various, we have, I think, at least seven scenes in the book. conceptual scenes that are not just sort of, you know, your run-of-the-mill scenes from the book of Enoch.

These are very unique, and you'll see why if you get a copy of this book, it's a very unique perspective on what's really unfolding in the narrative. And it's really cool to have this conceptual scene explanation on one side, and then on the other side you have the actual artwork. and I think it's going to help people to conceptualize a, to help people conceptualize what's going on in the anti-deluvian world in a way that they perhaps otherwise would not be able to without this, let's call it, blurry book of Enoch that we've, that we've produced. So I'm really excited about it. I think this collaboration is very fruitful and the Nephilim series I think is going to

be just a tremendous tremendously popular i was looking at our catalog luke and uh our very first episode with you tim has overtaken your genesis six episode as the number one the watchers our very first episode we did together and we kind of were baptized into the the mind of tim alberino from the get-go and here we are talking kind of the insane mind of tim alberino i love it and it really kind of it helped our show kind of grow into what it's become and it's a huge part of what blurry creatures is now, and it's cool to do this project together. But, you know, that, that episode was titled The Watchers, and that is, that is like the biggest part of this book of Enoch, the most, sort of the concept that I think a lot of Christians, and we grew up in

the church, we miss these characters, and you only really hear about these characters in the book of Enoch, but you're, in the Bible itself, there's hints of these angels. What are these angels? Where do they come from? Is that sort of the focal point of the book of Enoch for my first question? Is this, the main thing that people take away from reading it. Yeah, the book of Enok, by the way, the commentary that we do in the conceptual scenes are, we provide them for the first portion of the book of Enoch, which is called the Book of the Watchers. The book of Enoch is divided into four sections. The first section, the book of the watchers is the narrative. It's the main body of the, that's where the narration is contained. And when I say the narration, I mean the story. That's where the story is

what I call the Enochian tale, is contained in the first section, the Book of the Watchers. Then you have the parables, and the parables are remarkable. I think that the parables provide a verification, validation of the book of Enoch in regard to its, let's call it its scriptural worth. Because in the book of Enoch, rather in the book of parables, we have prophecies, oracles, regarding the son of man, regarding Jesus that are more specific, more detailed than anything that you're going to find in the Old Testament. And that may come as a shock to people, but it's true. The revelation of Jesus Christ in the book of Enoch is, I would say,

is more concise, is more specific than any other document on the face of the earth. Jesus was the coming of Christ, especially the second coming of Christ, the Eschaton and the eschatological worldview of the apostles and of Jesus himself, are derived primarily, not from the Old Testament, but from the parables, but from the Book of Enoch. And again, that may come as a shock to people, but it's true. And when people read the parables, they'll see what I mean. It's just absolutely. remarkable how specific these prophecies in regard to Christ are. And we know that the parables were written before the Advent, the birth of Jesus. So what does what does the Bible tell us? What does Revelation tell us that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy? And so that if you have within the book of Enoch, again specifically in the parables, if you have the testimony, of Jesus before the birth of Christ, and what you have is validation that this is indeed

legitimate prophecy. Right? Yeah. That's the stamp of verification. I guess we could start with the age of the Book of Enoch. How do we know that it's age? How old it is? We know for certain that the Book of Enoch, portions of the Book of Enoch were written before the Advent of Christ, before the birth of Christ. There are, as I said, there's four sections for different books within the book of Enoch. Book one is the Book of the Watchers. Two is the book of the parables, or the book of parables, rather. Three is the book of the course of the heavenly luminaries. And four is what's called the dream visions or sometimes just called the dreams. And the first two of those, the book of the watchers and the

Book of Parables, as I said before, are unquestionably dated before the birth of Christ. The book of the courses of the heavenly luminaries and the book of dream visions are likely not not, it's not known for certain, but they're likely dated after Christ. And it's important to note that this is a complex. The book of Enoch is a complex manuscript. There are at least three authors, different authors, if not four, who had a hand in compiling the book of Enoch, writing the book of Enoch. Now, I'm going to put out there right away that I believe that the earliest portions of Enoch may in fact have been written by the hand of Enoch in the anti-deluvian world. That's a contention that I make. And indeed, I make this contention in my introduction to the book of Enoch.

And by the way, you're going to find things in my introduction and in my commentary as well that you're not going to read anywhere else. There are things, there are insights that I have into the book of Enoch that are my own. And so you're going to encounter things in the introduction that you're going to find surprising even in regard to how the book of Enoch resurfaced, how that came about in modern times. and also why the book of Enoch was nearly expunged from the libraries of Europe by the 5th century AD. There seems to have been an intentional extirpation of the book of Enoch. In other words, it was somebody was intentionally attempting to eradicate Enoch from the scriptoriums of Europe and the Middle East. And that's very interesting.

And we can thank the Ethiopians for preserving it. The Ethiopians have preserved the Book of Enoch. for many centuries, both the Tawa Hedo Christians, the Orthodox Christians, and also the Jewish community, the ancient Jewish community in Ethiopia, preserve the book of Enoch when the rest of the world was expunging it from their libraries. That's one of the primary reasons why we have the Book of Enoch to this day. That's why first Enoch, go ahead. Why do you think they're trying to get rid of it? What's so taboo, I guess, about the book of Enoch that people don't want to.

a habit around. We have to understand the context in which the book of Enoch was rejected from the canons of scripture. We're talking about two canons. We're talking about the canon of the Jews, and we're talking about the canon of the Christians. Both of those canons and both the Jewish and Christian canons, the book of Enoch was rejected, ultimately rejected for inclusion. Among Christians, not without much debate and controversy. Not so much among the Jews. The simple reason, let's separate these two. As it relates to the Jews, we're talking about first century Jews. This is the context in which the book of Enoch is rejected in the Jewish canon. First century Jews, I make the case in the introduction, rejected the book of Enoch because it testifies of the man they had crucified, namely

Jesus of Nazareth. And so the Jews are living in the first century. They were driven from Israel after the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Then you had the diaspora of the Jewish community. And this was in the aftermath, of course, of Jesus of Nazareth. And when Jesus died, the church was born. And so the early church is growing. And it is apparent, it is apparent in both the Bible and extra biblical text and in a historical context, that the early church was conversant with the book of Enoch. And indeed, not only was the early church conversant with the book of Enoch, but the apostles, the disciples of Christ, the writers of the New Testament, based much of their theology and specifically their eschatology, for example, as it pertains to the return of Christ,

the Great Judgment, they based much of it on content from the Book of Enoch. In fact, Jesus himself makes several references in the Gospels that are found nowhere else except for in First Enoch. And First Enoch is called the Ethiopic Enoch because, as I mentioned earlier, it was preserved by the Beda Israel Jews, the Ethiopian Jews, and by the Orthodox Tawahedo Christians from the 4th century on. And so you have a situation in which the Jewish community in the early church age is being confronted with the rise of Christianity. They have been expelled from Israel by the Romans. They're in this moment of crisis for the Jewish community. I would say specifically for the Talmudic community. In other words, we're talking about Orthodox Jews who are also now faced with the rise of Christianity.

And as most people are aware, there was great animosity between the Jews and the Christians in the early church age. And as the years progressed, as the centuries progressed, there was a lot of animosity between Christianity and Judaism. And so the Jews were not at all going to promote anything that identified or suggested, intimated that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, was the elect one from the Book of Enoch. And the book of Enoch is, as I mentioned earlier, is the most powerful testimony of Jesus Christ that exists in the the world in regard to scriptures that predate the birth of Christ. It is the oracles of Enoch are the most significant messionic prophecies you're going to find anywhere. And they point directly to Jesus of Nazareth. And in fact, they prefigure his ministry in some very remarkable ways.

Again, the reason why ultimately the Jews, in my opinion, rejected the book of Enoch was because of its testified of the man they had crucified. Now, there is a legitimate contention in regard to the dating, obviously, of Enoch, but also the authorship of Enoch, as I mentioned earlier. There are certainly several authors. And again, there's four sections which were compiled at different times by different authors. I think that the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Parables have the same author, and I would contend that the original author was Enoch. That would be my contention. But the book of the course of the heavenly luminaries and the book of the dream visions, I would say, are post-anodominy. In other words, they were compiled after the birth of Christ.

And they have somewhat of a Mercaba mysticism influence. Mercaba is also known as chariot mysticism. They're a little bit more in line in my estimation with second and 30. And again, I'm referring to the book of the. the courses of the heavenly luminaries and the dream vision. So it's important for people to parse to have an understanding of the complexity here with this manuscript. It's not just the book of Enoch written by Enoch. That's not what we're dealing with. So to answer your question, and I apologize for being long-winded here, but the Jews rejected the book of Enoch because it testified of Christ.

That's what Tertullian said, by the way. Tertullian, who was one of the primary church fathers and a defender of the faith and a great scholar, Turtulian contended that the Jews had rejected the Book of Enoch precisely because it testified of Christ. And other church fathers had the same opinion. Now, that answers why the Jews rejected the Book of Enoch. And because the authorship was also in question, that was also a contention because the authorship is obviously, it's not a single author. So that was part of the contention. Now, we can carry. that over to the context of the rejection of the book of Enoch among the Christian church, among Christians. Obviously, the Christians didn't reject Enoch because it testified of Christ. That's not the primary

contention here. Within the Christian community, the primary contention would have revolved around two things. It would have revolved around the authorship, but then also the content. And this is, when we talk about content, this is where the Jewish and Christian contentions dovetail. because there are some indications, and I talk about this in the introduction, that the Jews living in the early church age did not, let's put it this way, we're not fond of the concept of fallen angels, specifically angelic beings who could copulate, who could, and before copulation, who could succumb to sexual impulses and copulate with human women. there is some indication that that was the case. And I think that that also was a contention among Christians. Some Christians were scandalized, I think, by the situation that is evident in the Book of the Watchers. The notion that heavenly beings, these holy watchers, a very high-ranking order of angels,

could lust after and have sexual intercourse with human women, was scandalizing, I think, for some people in the early church age. It is very important, though, to recognize that I am not referring to the early church in regard to the Church of the Apostles, to the disciples of Christ, because they quote from the Book of Enoch. We know Jude, for example, quotes from directly verbatim from the Book of Enoch. you literally have a passage that is copied and pasted from First Enoch into the New Testament. And it is done so in the context of inspired prophecy. And it is attributed directly to Enoch the seventh from Adam.

And so the early church considered the book of Enoch, or at least portions of the book of Enoch, as inspired scripture and legitimate prophecy. There's no question about that. As I mentioned earlier, Jesus himself makes references that can only be understood within the context of the Book of Enoch. I'll give you one quick example. Well, there's quite a lot, actually. There's quite a few, rather. And I'm actually scrolling through my introduction here, trying to get to a good example for you.

Let's use this one. So here's a paragraph. I'm going to read you a paragraph from my introduction here. This is from the introduction that's actually in our copy of the Book of Enoch. There are quite a few remarks made by Christ in the Gospels that are direct references to eschatological content found exclusively in Enoch. While conversing with his disciples on the eve of his crucifixion, for instance, Jesus affirms, in my father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you that mansions are prepared for the righteous in heaven must read as a new revelations for those. those who are versed only in the biblical canon. But for those conversant with the book of

Enoch, the words of Christ ring with a familiar tone. And here's a passage now from the book of Enoch. And after that I saw all the secrets of heaven and how the kingdom is divided and how the actions of men are weighed in the balance. And there I saw the mansions of the elect and the mansions of the holy. Now, Jesus is saying, in my father's house are many mansions, and if it were not so, I would have told you. Now, that always struck me as a bit curious. Why is Jesus saying, if it were not so, I would have told you? Do you guys ever think about that? Why is he saying that? if it were not so, I would have told you, because it's written somewhere, and he's affirming it. You see?

And the question is, where is it written? That there are mansions in heaven, not in the Old Testament, in the book of Enoch. And there I saw the mansions of the elect and the mansions of the holy. So Jesus is saying, it's true. I would tell you if it weren't. It's true. In my father's house, there are many mansions. if it were not so, I would have told you.

And then he goes on to say, basically, it is so, and I'm going to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will also come back to get you to take you so that you may be where I am, paraphrasing. And so this is a really good example. When you plug in the context of Enoch, it's like a light bulb goes off in your head,

and you go, okay, now I get it. Why is he saying if it were not so, I would have told you? because the Jews of the first century would have been, and of the Second Temple period in general, would have been familiar with the Inakian text. And indeed were. There's no question about it. So that's one example.

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not only being well widespread and well read and read by the apostles and read by the disciples and read by those that the writers of the New Testament, I know including Paul, why then do you think other than the Ethiopians, this is excluded from Christian canon? Because I know we got through the Jewish canon question, but we know that when they put together the canon because we have our Bibles,

you know, here there is no book of Enoch. And I think this is a big point of contention, right? People in our channels, a lot of channels, other places, people in the church, et cetera, say, leave this alone, don't touch it. This is not part of scripture. This is not part of canon. So you don't need to read it, which I think is kind of absurd because people read all kinds of things outside of the biblical text, and especially not,

and a lot of the things aren't referenced in, the New Testament that you always Christians aspire to being God inspired and, you know, holy and God breathes, right? Or at least influenced by. Right, right. I'm just saying. So then walk us through that. The Ethiopians have it. We know that because that's how it's rediscovered.

Not to spoil it, but in your introduction, you do talk about the rediscovery of it. But we went backwards. We're talking about it predating Christ. Also, the familiarity with this book was widespread. at the time in the time of Jesus, so much so that Christ references it, as you pointed out. And we know that Jude and Peter and First Peter directly quote, directly quote, word for word. And the Old Testament, I believe, I believe, now this can be contended, certainly, but I believe that the writer of Genesis is quoting the book of Enoch,

or at least is copying and pasting the passage in Genesis 6 directly from the book of And when I say the book of Enoch, let's remember, the book of Enoch in its current form, those four sections I talked about earlier, that's probably not the scroll that they had. The scroll that they had would have certainly had the book of the watchers and the book of parables, but maybe not necessarily the book of the heavenly luminaries and the book of dream visions. So they're quoting, and they're quoting from something that exists out there that does reflect, at least portions of what we know today as the Ethiopic Book of Enoch. And there's no question that the writers of the Old Testament were conversant with this manuscript

in whatever form it had in that time. So we're talking about a very ancient manuscript that has come down to us today in the form of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch because it was the Ethiopians who preserved it, right? Right. I also want to make a point here too, Tim, before you get into. that next part, that you can go to the Ethiopian and people, people can try to poke holes in that. But what you can't poke holes in is the archaeological record, right? So we've known that once they found the scrolls of Qumran with the ascents that predate Christ, that the Ethiopian copy

is actually correct in its translation because we have, not the originals, of course, but we have original or copies of Enoch in the language that predate all of this. So it's, You can draw a linear, you can verify and draw a linear verification. I think that's very important because people could go and say, well, the Ethiopians, they would have had the New Testament, so they could have just, you know, X, Y, Z cut and paste. And you go, yes, they could have, but they didn't. We know this because of what was found in Qumran in the caves and what the Ascines had.

That's right. And I think that's a, that's a, you got to peg that one to the board and say, you can, you can try to, you can do what you want, say what you want about Enoch, but the archeological record reflects this. and that this is. Absolutely. Yeah. That's exactly what I was about to say.

Absolutely. I got you. No, that's that is the salient point is that you can criticize and critique the Ethiopic book of Enoch. The problem is that the version that was discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls in the caves of Qumran is exactly the same in the portions that were preserved there. Exactly the same. So the Ethiopians were using the same, they were using probably the same document that

same source material as the scrolls in Qumran. So the book of Enoch was obviously not originally written in the language of Ethiopia. In this case, the liturgical language of Ethiopia, which is Giesz. That's what the Ethiopic copy of Enoch was written in. The original copy of Enoch was either written in Aramaic or Hebrew or a combination of both. And probably in an even more ancient language before that. Again, I would contend that the earliest portions of Enoch were written by the hand of Enoch in the anti-deluvian world. So that is a great point. Now, returning to, to come back and answer this question, I'm sure is making people anxious out there, and that is, why do the Christians rejected? Because that does, that is probably the most important question on people's minds listening to

this. Let me once again read a paragraph here from my introduction, because I can, I say it better in writing than I can say it verbally to you now. So I write this. In contrast to the Jews of the same period, Most Christians readily embraced the concept of fallen angels, but even they were scandalized by the sexual escapades of the Holy Watchers. Coupled with doubts concerning dating and authorship, as well as the position of the Jews, the unseemly content of Enoch seemingly tipped the scales against its induction into the Christian canon. It might have been convenient for those who simply could not accept that angels were capable

of lusting after and copulating with human females, to reject the Book of Enoch on grounds of dating and authorship. Whatever the case, the Inoccian influence on Christian theology faded into obscurity and following in the line of Talmudic rabbis, the Sons of Seth interpretation of Genesis 6 became the dominant view of the Catholic Church by the late 4th century A.D. in no small part thanks to Augustine. Now Augustine, Augustine is the, or Augustine, as some people say, is the main reason why the book of Enoch was ultimately rejected in the canon.

That's kind of a different subject, but that really was the death knell for the inclusion of the book of Enoch into the Christian canon. Augustine did not want the book of Enoch included in the canon. And it's, it is important to note, though, that I do not believe that the primary contention, contrary to popular belief, revolved around the authorship and dating when the book of, when it was being deliberated by the early church in regard to its inclusion in the canon. And the reason why I think that is because they could simply have included the portions of the Book of Enoch, which they knew to be ancient. Again, considering that Jude quotes verbatim from the

book of Enoch, they could have simply included those portions and then excluded the portions that were likely written after Christ or the dating of which was just too uncertain. So they could have come to a compromise. But the fact that they didn't come to a compromise, but the fact that they didn't come to a compromise and that they decided to exclude it altogether really suggests that the primary contention revolved around the content of Enoch rather than the dating. And again, I think that some early Christians were scandalized. And when I say early Christians, I should make a differentiation here. I don't mean early church age Christians. I'm talking about in the Catholic era. Some of these Catholic scholars during these councils decided that they didn't like the content of Enoch.

That was a major factor in militating against its inclusion into the canon of Scripture, in the Christian canon. I'll also read this just so that people know there was widespread support, actually, for the book of Enoch to be both received in the early days as scripture and then later on inducted into the canon. I write this, despite the controversy, more than a few prominent Church fathers held a favorable view of the Book of Enoch, and some even referenced it as Holy Scripture. Among these are such luminaries as Clement and Barnabas, who were the friends of Paul, Arranius, Oranthagoras of Athens, rather, and the formerly mentioned Justin Martyr, I talked about a case with Justin Martyr earlier on in this introduction. Turtulian, the famed scholar

and defender of the faith in Carthage, was particularly vociferous in support of Enoch, even contending for its inclusion in the canon. And then I go on to quote from his treatise on the apparel of women, which he makes a strong case, that the book of Enoch was likely, in his opinion, preserved by the spirit through the flood, obviously via Noah, and ultimately delivered to the descendants of Abraham in the form of scripture. So I believe that if you were to walk into a synagogue during the time of Christ, say. If you were to walk into a synagogue, let's say the synagogue in Jerusalem, and you had access into their scriptorium where all of their scrolls are kept, all of their sacred scrolls are kept. Number one, you're going to find a lot of documentation there. You're

going to find a lot of manuscripts that we don't have in the Bible. More than a few, I would venture to guess. And among them, you're going to find the book of Enoch. It may not have been called the book of Enoch, but you're going to find the book of the watchers and the book of parables or some or or or portions thereof. And I make that contention very strongly. I think in my mind it's it's in my mind it's an irrefutable fact that they had the book of Enoch in some form in the scriptoriums of the synagogues because the the Bible references it so often that it's inconceivable that they would not have had some sort of a scroll, some scripture that was derived from, or rather that what we have today called the Book of Enoch was derived from. And so I believe that much of the Old Testament,

I don't have to say that I believe in this case, I know. It's known. It's a known fact that certain illusions in the Old Testament are direct references to the Book of Enoch and certainly in the New Testament. There is no question that when Peter, talks about the angels who sinned and who are chains and Tartarus, there's no question whatsoever that Peter is referencing the Anacian tale. None, zero. He's talking about the watchers, and all scholars know this. This is not a contention among scholars. It's a contention among certain Protestant denominations. It's a contention among certain theologians, perhaps, but it's not a contention among scholars. They know what the reference is. It is a direct

reference to the Anacian tale to the book of Inak. The same can be said obviously for Jude, who also references those angels. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say we've heard many times on our show over the years that, you know, in history, you know, you have these, it kind of reminds me of a couple of things. Like you have these things like the Rosetta Stone.

You know, we don't really understand what's going on. And then we find this thing. and it really brings context. And a lot of people in this space, in the Genesis 6 space have said, you know, like the Book of Enoch in Genesis 6 is the Rosetta Stone of Understanding the Old Testament,

some of these main themes. And it also kind of reminds me in points in history when you say like you have sometimes common enemies come together and declare a truce and they fight somebody else. You know, you have like the Athenians and the Spartans coming together to fight the Persians or whatever.

You know, there's multiple, reasons why everyone wanted this book to go away. That's what I'm saying. And this guy wants this. We don't like this part of it. And this other group, we don't like this part of it. So they kind of team up together and get rid of it. But I think that's because it's so powerful. I think it's because it gives a lot of context. It really makes things make a lot of sense. And a lot of people walk away from their faith and they reject the Christian story because they don't get any context. They don't have any understanding. And Luke and I have seen over the years of just talking about these things, explodes people.

faith. People are like, I've been in church my whole life. I'm coming back because it finally makes some sense. And I wonder if just like the bigger thing, is it, is there a rosetta stone sort of comparison here with the Book of Enoch? Yes, there is. In fact, I think that's an accurate description of the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch is in some ways a rosetta stone for both the old and New Testament. Now, let me give you an example. Again, I'm going to reference my introduction here. We know that Jesus preferred among all of the prophetic messianic epithets available to him. He preferred the title, Son of Man, when referring to himself. Why is that?

Why does Jesus call himself the son of man? And the conventional explanation is going to reference Daniel. So let me read here again from my introduction. And this is going to give you an idea of how important the book of Enoch is. It is that Rosetta Stone in many ways of understanding certain references in both the Old and New Testament. Recalling, I'm reading from my introduction, recalling that the oldest portions of First Enoch, chapters 1 through 71, were most certainly written before the birth of Christ. We can examine their content as it relates to the testimony of Jesus.

Of all the prophetic epithets pertaining to the Messiah in the scriptures, Jesus oddly preferred to refer to himself as the Son of Man, a title that is not found in the Old Testament. Theologians have attempted to explain his curious preference by citing a passage from Daniel in which the prophet beholds one like a son of man. And here's that verse. I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a son of man. Son of man. And he came to the ancient of days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people's nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away. And his kingdom won that shall not be destroyed. That's Daniel 713 through 14. Then I write this. Apart from the fact that this passage is not employing

the term son of man as a formal title, but a description of one who has the appearance of a human being. What so many theologians fail to realize is that Daniel's vision of the Messiah being presented before the ancient or head of days is deliberately synchronistic with Enoch's description of the same event recorded thusly. Now, this is from the Book of Enoch. And at that hour, That son of man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the head of days, yea, before the sun and signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made.

His name was named before the Lord of spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall. And he shall be the light of the Gentiles, and the hope of those who are troubled, of heart. And all who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits. And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before him, before the creation of the world and forevermore. And the wisdom of the Lord of spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous, for he hath preserved the lot of the

righteous because they have hated and despise this world of unrighteousness and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of spirits for in his name they are saved and according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life and then I'll read this final paragraph I write here unlike Daniel Enoch employs the term son of man as a formal title as scribe exclusively to the promised Messiah. Long before Jesus was born of Mary in Bethlehem, Enoch foresaw that the Son of Man would be a staff to the righteous and the light of the Gentiles.

The very core of Christian doctrine is revealed in the pronouncement, for in his name, they are saved. When Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, the meaning was crystal clear in the minds of the Jews. The Pharisees and Sadducees understood exactly who he was claiming to be, precisely because they were well-versed in the oracles of Enoch. Jesus was not merely declaring himself to be a son of man, but the son of man according to the scriptures.

And I go on to give some examples of some more examples of this. And so, I mean, for those who are unfamiliar with the book of Enoch, the verse I just read from Enoch may seem shocking to you. It certainly did to me when I first read the book of Enoch, shocking because, precisely because. Here is a manuscript that is written before Christ. And you can argue whether it was written by the hand of Enoch. That's really irrelevant. The point is it's written before Christ, and yet it is prophesying of the Son of Man in a way that is more conspicuous.

and concise than any Old Testament messianic prophecy. He shall be a staff to the righteous, we're on to stay themselves and not fall. And he shall be the light of the Gentiles. This is in the book of Enoch written before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. I mean, in his name, they are saved. These are New Testament doctrines. So clearly, clearly, the messianic content in the book of Enoch is, in my mind, validating its authenticity.

Because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And if you have a manuscript which testifies of Christ, according to the scriptures, specifically according to the revelation of Christ himself and of his disciples, then you know if you're a Christian that this is true, that the testimony of Enoch is true, at least as it pertains to the messianic content contained in the book of parables, which is where this extraction from the book of Enoch where I extracted it. I think it's just, and this is one, by the way, of dozens, literally dozens of passages,

of messianic passages that are predicting the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth in a way that, as I will say again, is more specific than anything, anything you're going to find in the Old Testament, even the crucifixion is prefigured in the Book of Enoch because you have several instances in the Book of Enoch in which you run across this very interesting phraseology hang upon the Lord of Spirits. So you have this phrase hang upon the Lord of Spirits in regard to the righteous and the elect. So it appears at least three times in the Book of Enoch, basically, paraphrasing all three of them, it says that the righteous and the elect, and when I was 16 years old, when I got my first copy of the book of Enoch at Barnes & Noble, and I was reading, and I remember reading it,

sitting there in Barnes and Noble reading this, or rather, I think it was actually in borders, and I was just absolute, my heart was pierced when I read in the parables that the righteous and the elect, and this is what I saw in my head, hang upon the Lord of the spirits. That phraseology is just absolutely mind-blowing to me because here you have a prefiguration of the crucifixion of Christ and the notion which becomes a New Testament doctrine that we are what, crucified with Christ. We hang upon the Lord of spirits through Christ. That it is his crucifixion.

It is that it is the son of man who is going to redeem us and that the righteous, that he would be a staff to the righteous, that it would be through him that we have access to the Father, that he would redeem us and reconcile us to the Father. If you're just reading the Old Testament, yes, you can derive that from, there are certainly many messianic illusions in the Old Testament that Jesus is going to, that the Messiah is going to save his people from their sins, yes. And many allusions to the crucifixion.

There's a handful of illusions in the Old Testament that are quite specific, right, to the crucifixion. But some of these New Testament documents are, nowhere fleshed out in the Old Testament like they are in the Book of Enoch. And that's why certain scholars who want to debate, there are certain scholars, although the majority of scholars, there's no debate that the book of Enoch, the earliest portions, the book of the watchers, the book of parables, predate the birth of Christ. There are some scholars who are holding out. Why are they holding out? Because they simply cannot believe that these things were written of Christ before he was born. And they simply cannot believe

that the apostles, that the writers of the New Testament were drawing upon the book of Enoch in the formulation of their doctrines. They have to put the book of Enoch contemporary with them or even posterior to them to the apostles and the writings of the New Testament. And it's because it is so synchronistic with the New Testament, indeed, anyone familiar with the New Testament, when you read the book of Enoch, I'm going to wager, I'm going to venture that some of you are going to be reading it with tears in your eyes, because you will be seeing these explicit prophecies, the oracles of Enoch, that are predicting the Advent, the birth of Christ, the birth and death and resurrection of Christ

in a way that is just tremendous. And as I said, so concise and so prescient. And then you're going to see the doctrines of the New Testament. When you see them in the context of the book of the watchers and the parables, The New Testament, it's like it adds so much contrast and color to what the New Testament writers are saying, because you're realizing where they're deriving so much of this from. And why the son of man, why when Jesus walked around and throughout Judea, calling himself the son of man, why that title was so important to the Jews

and why it offended the Pharisees and Sadducees. You cannot explain why Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man. You cannot explain why that was his preferred title if you are only drawing on the canonized Old Testament. But if you take the Book of Enoch and you understand who this son of man is predicted to be, what he represents, then you realize why they had to crucify him. Tim, how much do you think that the book of Enoch? It's like you're given all the clues, but you have no idea how the story is going to play out. You know, it's like a choppy movie.

You can't really see it all. But do you, I don't know if I have a question as much as I'm just trying to think, like, do you think that the book of Enoch is just too much information and it gives too much clarity and it's rejected? Because people kind of like a, they like a faith that's confusing. They like to debate it. They don't really want to know. Well, here's an answer for you.

Here's kind of a black and white answer for you. And we sort of reject those things. The book of Enoch certainly, and I don't know if this answers your question, but the book of Enochs certainly informs the Christology of the New Testament in a way that the Old Testament does not. Or at least it's certainly an expansion on the Old Testament or the writings of the Old Testament. I would say that the prophecies of the Old Testament are actually an expansion on the Enochian manuscript, the Inocquean text, which predate them. As I said earlier, that vision of Daniel, the vision of Daniel, of the ancient of days, ancient or head of days, is synchronistic

with Enoch's vision of the ancient or head of days. And the one I read was just one of a handful of them in the parables. Very detailed. So when Jesus comes on the scene, it's a very interesting question, how much did his adversaries, and when I say his adversaries, I'm not just referring to the Pharisees and Sadducees. I'm referring to the devil and his angels. How much did his adversaries realize, recognize, they knew who he was. There's no question about it. The Gatarin Demaniacs who came running at Jesus, threw themselves at his feet and said, what have you to do with us? So, oh, you son of God. They knew who he was. They recognized exactly who he was. Why have you come to torment us before the appointed time? By the way, referencing the Gatarin Demaniacs, that question that they asked Jesus, when they see him on the shore of Galilee in the land of Gatarin,

when they see him, they recognize him as the Son of God. But who do they know the Son of God to be, according to the Scriptures? They know that the Son of God is the judge, who is going to judge not only mankind but the angels and the Nephilim, their offspring. Because the Nephilim and the and the angels, the angels that are condemned and are in chains in the abyss or Tartarus, they are awaiting the day of judgment. And that day of judgment is yet to come. And there is one who is going to preside over that day of judgment. And that one is who the book of Vinok designates as the righteous one, the elect one, that son of man, who is the son of God. And so even the title, Son of man, is a prefiguration, is predictive of the incarnation of Jesus Christ who would be born

through Mary, be born into our condition as a human being. The very title, Son of Man, because Enoch makes it clear that this Son of Man is also the Son of God. And so that in and of itself is, in a remarkable prophecy regarding the incarnation of Christ being born into the human condition. But these demons, they recognize that the Son of Man is here. What is he doing here before the appointed time? They didn't realize that Jesus would come twice. See, they knew he would come at the end of the age, at the day of the Lord, to execute judgment. They knew that, and they knew that that was him. Why is the great judge walking on the earth before the appointed day of judgment. Now, if you're just referencing the Old Testament when you encounter

this story in the New Testament of the Gatarin Demaniacs, you don't have the context of, number one, who these demons are, where they come from, and number two, why they would ask Jesus this question, why have you come to torment us before the appointed time? The only way you're going to understand this dynamic, the only way is if you read the book of Vinok. my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon.

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namely that Jesus is the judge. Jesus is the judge. So the fact that the son of man is going to judge all of mankind at the end of the age is hinted. There are hints of this in the Old Testament, but it is explicit in the oracles of Enoch, explicit. And in fact, when the spirits of the giants, this is where, of course, your audience knows this by now, I'm very confident that the spirits of the giants who were slain either in the great civil war, hybrid civil war, that they fought amongst themselves, or by the flood that ensued afterward, that their spirits, once they proceeded from those dead bodies of the

Nephilim, they became evil spirits on the earth. And they continued on in the post-Diluvian age after the flood as evil spirits. And this is, in fact, they're cursed, and we've talked about this, I'm sure, many times. And how would you know that reading the Old Testament? How would you know that reading the New Testament? How would you know that if you're a Christian sitting in church and your pastor's preaching on the Gatarin Demaniacs?

How would you know that these are the spirits of the Nephilim? You wouldn't. But do you know what? The early church did. Well, I mean, it reminds me kind of what Luke and I deal with a lot, and a lot of people in this space, you know, in modern terms, how can put this in modern terms? A lot of people watch the 90-second clip of whatever is being posted on social media,

and then they make their judgments, and they come to their conclusions based on the 90-second thing, and they don't watch the whole thing. They don't have any context of the backstory. And so, like, you know, we always go viral when we get hate mail from like, you set this crazy thing in 90 seconds, and it's supposed to be like in a teaser to go back and read the beginning of the book and catch yourself up to speed of what?

why I said what I said, but nobody does that. Nobody has any context. So yeah, we were told a lot of things growing up in the church. We were given these huge monumental moments with no context, and it was really hard for a lot of us. And then you get to a certain age, and you sort of, you wonder, you're like, is this all, do I actually believe any of this? And a lot of people sadly walk away from their faith because they don't know.

It's amazing, though. I never thought about the demons somewhere along the, the line they told them they were going to get judged. Somewhere along the line, these big themes happens. There's this, there's back story. Oh, it's specific in, it's explicit in the book of Enoch that they're going to, I'll just quickly read this. I'm sure someone has read this.

That comes from Jasher or Jubilee. And this is from the book of Enoch. And now the giants who are produced from the spirits and flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies because they are born from men and from the Holy Watchers is their beginning in primal origin. They shall be evil spirits on the earth, and evil spirits shall they be called evil slash unclean, by the way. We'll get to that. And as for the spirits of heaven and heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits

on earth, which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth and cause trouble. They take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst and cause offenses. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women because they have proceeded from them. There is the origin of demons in Hebrew cosmology. There and nowhere else, that is the origin of demons. And scholars know that. All scholars worth their salt are well aware that this passage from Enoch is the origin of demons in Hebrew cosmology.

So demons are a very specific thing, as you know, and as your audience is well aware at this point, point, demons are and only are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim who have proceeded into the post-eluvian world after their bodies, the Nephilim, the bodies of their giants were killed. A lot of people who on our shows who don't know the origins of demons will say, God created the demons and things like that. And you're like, what? You know, they'll make bold claims like that. You're like, that's a pretty big thing to say that God created these unclean spirits to torment humans, you know? Something older, something older and fowler.

But also, as it relates to the Gatarin Demaniac, now we know where those demons came from because they're inhabiting, they're inhabiting these men, right? Because they're ravenous, their vagabond spirits wandering the earth. They're ravenous. They're hungry. They're thirsty. I contend. They have all the impulses of the flesh. They have all the desires of the flesh, including sexual desires, without the equipment, without a body to fulfill those.

desires to satisfy those desires. And so what logically are they going to do? They're going to seek to inhabit human bodies, bodies that are most like the ones that they had. And they're going to, through these bodies, they're going to be able to interact with the fabric of the material world and to some extent satiate their insatiable appetites. And so that's why they possess people. otherwise there's no it doesn't make any sense and that's one of the things that growing up before I was sitting there in borders with this book of Enoch opened on my lap as a probably was you know I was driving so I must have been 16 years old I drove myself there um Tim you're reading the book of Enoch and we're reading the gold nine Nintendo power

I'm reading that as well I can assure you so so here I am reading this and I finally realize because I've always had this question why do demons want to inhabit human bodies where's the answer for this? Somebody tell me why. And there's no reason why. Nobody can, I mean, people can make things up. And this is the thing. In the absence of information, we have concoction. People just concoct stuff. And this is a problem I have with a lot of deliverance ministries. They just concoct things out of, out of, they just create these bizarre concoctions because they don't have information. But when you plug in information, you can understand, at least from the Hebrew conceptualization, from Hebrew cosmology, you can understand. You can

understand why demons seek to inhabit bodies. It's crystal clear. They're hungry. They're thirsty. They have the desires of the flesh. There's only one way to satiate yourself in that condition. This is a terrible condition, by the way. And it really underlies a lot of pop culture movies. For example, I always cite the Pirates of the Caribbean the first movie in which the pirates are cursed. Remember, they have this curse placed upon them. They can't eat. They can't drink. they have bodies but they can't sate their desires and so all they want is to remedy this problem that they have is to reverse undo the curse so that you know the barbosa can bite the apple and that they can experience and satiate their bodies and their hunger and their thirst and their desires

and interact with the fabric of the material world again this is the condition of the nephaline We bring this up a lot on our show, Tim, about sort of the limits of demons. Demons are very limited. And when people say demons are out there creating advanced craft, advanced technological machines and flying them around, you're like, well, you don't really understand the limitations of a demon. It just, you know, it's like a cockroach in the spiritual world. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's not high on the list of spiritual beings. and they're just trying to get into a body, anybody, just to feel what it's like. It's kind of a crazy leap to say that they have these genie powers where they can do whatever

they want. They can't. They can't do whatever they want. They can only do a limited number of things. And like you said, they're just carnal creatures trying to feel what it's like to be alive in a body. And why is the rum gone? Why is the rum gone?

Why's the rum always gone? if you wanted to finish the thought, I had one of the questions. I kind of would like maybe broad brush question on your thoughts. It's going to be an opinion question. But a lot of Christian circles and even in our channels, there's this real visceral reaction, knee-jerk reaction to the discussion around Enoch or to the bringing up of Enoch or to the suggestion to read and understand Enoch. And that is also always sort of or oftentimes qualified with like some sort of semblance of narcissism, right? And I just want to, in your opinion, why do you think there's such a visceral reaction or such a, a needer, canned reaction to this book and this apocrypha? Because it's something that pops up again and again.

This is not, this is a Gnostic gospel. This is don't read this. It's outside the Bible. We don't need it. I kind of referenced that earlier. But in your opinion, why do you think that happens? Do you think that's some of the marketing around it, if you will? Because people are very religious and dogmatic.

and they have a hard time, they have a hard time thinking in a way that is complex. And it takes one's ability to parse things. For example, when you're holding the Book of Inak in your hands, one ought not just accept everything in it as verified scripture or prophecy because we know there's various authors written at various periods of time. So you have to dig. You have to look. You have to gain understanding and understand, first of all, what qualifies prophecy, for one thing,

but then also understanding what's written before Christ, what's written after Christ, and then you can hold this book in your hand, this book of Enoch, and you can, to use a biblical phrase, rightly divide it. And so it's that sort of thinking that's necessary, and there's a lot of people out there who are not capable of that thinking because they're very dark. dogmatic and they've locked themselves into these boxes and all they have in their head is it's not in the canon it's not in the canon it's not in the canon it's not in the canon and so the word of God to them is only contained within the canon so but for me the testimony of jesus is the spirit of prophecy

that's that's what's true for me and so again if i'm reading in the parables of enoch the testimony of Jesus, a document that was clearly written before the birth of Christ, then I know that this prophecy is true, because it testifies accurately of Jesus and is affirmed by Christ and his apostles. And that's all that matters to me. But some people, they cannot get outside of this rigid, dogmatic box that they have contained their minds in. It causes them to stumble when they are confronted with passages that are outside of the canon, even though, as we've already said, the book of Enoch is, a passage from the book of Enoch is found verbatim inside of that canon. Right. So it requires high resolution, complexity of thought. It's very good, I think,

as a Christian, to be very careful with what we call scripture. And I'm not saying that Enoch is, is scripture. I'm not here to make that case. I'm just saying I recognize the spirit of prophecy being the testimony of Jesus, and I know that that is the qualifying factor, the verification that that prophecy is true. Okay. So this is a complexity that you have to adopt, I think. If you're going to comment on the book of Enoch, then first read it and read it with an ability to parse and to be complex with the text. So some people will just say, say the book of Enoch is true. It's true. It's true. I wouldn't say that. I'm not, I'm not going to hold up the book of Enoch. This is an R copy. This is a copy I've had since I was, I've had for 20 plus

years. Our copy is being printed right now. But I'm not going to hold up this book of Enoch and say, this is true. No, I'm going to hold up this book of Enoch and I'm going to say some of this is true. And that's, that, that's what, how we ought to approach these things. But people are very dogmatic. People are very dogmatic. They want black and white. And that leads to that leads to that visceral reaction that that you're talking about, Luke. And on one hand, I understand it. But on the other hand, it's time for people to grow up. If you're listening to blurry creatures, especially, you know, you're going to have to have a higher resolution perspective on things if you're going to try and make sense of all the the things that we talk about on here and that your other guests talk about. So let me tie up this last thing we were saying before we move on. I read the

origin of giants. And now let me put a little bow on this Gatarin Demaniac situation. I read the last verse verse in the book of Enoch from chapter 15, verse 12, and these spares shall rise up against the children of men and against the women because they have proceeded from them. Chapter 16. Now this is important. Remember, what did the demons say to Jesus? We know who you are, son of man or son of God. Why have you come to torment us before the appointed Time. Chapter 16, Book of Inok, from the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits having gone forth shall destroy without incurring judgment. Thus, they shall destroy until the day of consummation.

The great judgment in which the age shall be consummated over the watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated. What does consummated mean? It means brought to a conclusion. So what is this saying? It's saying that these, the spirits of the Nephilim, by the way, people say, are there Nephilim alive today? Yeah, they're called demons. So the spirits of the Nephilim, and I think there actually are giants also, by the way. But the spirits of the Nephilim are cursed, wandering as vagabonds in the earth with all the desires of the flesh, but without the means to satiate them. and they're going to be in this condition of torment until the day of judgment, the great day of judgment. Who's the judge?

The son of God is the judge. And so they see the son of God walking on the shores of Galilee, and what do they think? What are you doing here? It's not time yet, right? So these are, I'm just highlighting, like the mansions in heaven and this, I'm just highlighting these things so that people can, understand that there's a lot more context available to a lot of these very mystifying things in the Bible. And that's what excites people, I think, about your guys' podcast and what you guys do so well, is you help to inject context. And a lot of it's speculative, a lot of what I say

speculative, but it helps us to, it helps us to begin to, I think, expand our paradigms. And certainly as it pertains to the book of Enoch and how it plugs in to the biblical text, how it synchronizes with the biblical text, it causes us to have this just, I would say, as I said before, a much more high contrast, high resolution understanding of what's going on. We see this with modern filmmaking. Like, you have to understand the Marvelverse, understand this snapshot of the Marvel movie, right? Or you have to understand this Star Wars film.

You have to go back and watch the Star Wars. And even the Star Wars film starts in the middle and you're confused. and like Jesus comes at a specific point in time in history, kind of in the middle of history, if we think that this is all wrap it up pretty soon. Right? So you have this prequel, then you have this sort of mid-story,

and then you have the future, kind of what's coming down in the pipe right now, and the end of the age. And so we're all kind of very tightly looking at just the Bible with no context, and we're all interpreting it with these wild conclusions, because no one wants to watch the third or the first movie. We're just kind of all trying to figure out what's going on in this second film, and we have no idea,

like, why are the characters doing what they're doing? Why are they saying what they're saying? And I think that's the best way I can think about it in just like a modern context of like, you know, you can make, you can come to wild conclusions based upon limited knowledge. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that's right. I've seen pastors get up and preach whole messages based on passages from the Bible. For example, this passage in Second Peter about the angels who are bound and changed and totally get it wrong.

because they don't, they're not referencing the source. They're not referencing the Book of Enoch. And so they come up, they walk away with this ridiculous interpretation because they are ignorant to or have refused to consider the Book of Enoch from whence the passage is derived. And there's a lot of that out there. You know, we've said this many times is when Jesus says, you know, on this rock, I will build my church.

You know, the Catholic Church took that literal. and they have the bones of Peter underneath St. Peter's Basilica, and they don't look at where they're at, the Temple of Pan, the cave to the underworld, this rock, this actual cave that Jesus is saying this from. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're saying. So you take Enoch's and you're plugging in that context, and it's becoming much, it's much more comprehensible. Now, I want to say something here before we run out of time. When you read the book of Enoch, and I've said this, you know, times already, but the book of Enoch has four different sections, basically, there's a couple of other sections, but basically it's got four sections, four different divisions written at different periods of time, probably by different authors. I say probably because I think that, definitely by different

authors, but the watchers and the parables, I think you have the same author. That can be, that can be disputed, but that's my opinion. It's important that when you read past, the book of parables. Okay, so for those of you who've read the book of enoch, who are reading the book of enoch, who are going to get our book of enoch and read it, when you read past the parables, you are entering into a portion, you're entering into content, and even within the parables, by the way, in a portion called Enoch's Journeys Through Earth and Sheol, you're going to encounter content. So even within that pre-Christ portion of the text that predates the birth of Christ, you're going to encounter highly esoteric content in this book.

Esoteric meaning very strange, prophetic, visionary content. Please keep in mind that all of it, all of it is in the context of a dream or various dreams and visions. So Enoch, for much of the book, especially after the parables, but even within the parables, Enoch's journey through the Earth and Shield. You're going to be presented with all kinds of very, very strange things, especially in the book of the courses of the heavenly luminaries, which I do not believe is written by Enoch, by the way.

But let's stay within the parable. So I'm going to keep this complex because after the parables, when you get into the course of the heavenly luminaries and the dream visions, I think you're drifting into some Mercaba mysticism there. And I don't consider it to be on the same. level of authenticity as the book of the watchers and the book of parables. And that's why we provide by the way commentary. That's why I provide commentary on the book of the watchers, because I only have commentary on the narrative portion of the book and not on the esoteric stuff

precisely because it is esoteric in nature. But I'm going to stay in this comment I'm about to make. I'm going to stay within the portion of the book that we know is written before Christ. okay so you're going to encounter visions enoch has a couple of dreams and he relates to some very strange things in these dreams and and I'm making a point here because I get confronted with people all the time who say to me and this is this is one-dimensional thinking this is that black and white

one-dimensional thinking I was referring to earlier I get confronted by people all the time who say to me do you believe in the book of enoch and that's that's a stupid question first of all because my answer is always going to be what I said previously, I believe in some of the book of Enoch. I believe that some of this book is true. All of it is valid, by the way, for understanding Second Temple Judaism. So it's very, very valid in academic sense, very important, very valid on many levels, right?

Understanding some of the terminology that you find in the Bible. It's a wonderful academic document. Some of it is absolutely prophetically accurate. And I would put in the same qualification as Scripture based on what Scripture provides as the validating mechanism, which is, again, prophecy regarding Christ, which is true. But these vision and dreams, these vision and dreams sections that you're going to run into, people confront me, as I said, if you believe in the book of Enoch, well, what do you think of this? And they'll hit me with a vision or dream that Enoch.

How can you believe that something referencing the stars, for example, that the stars move because they're blown by the east wind or something like that, right? How can you believe anything this book says if it's so stupid, scientifically speaking? That's one side of the equation, right? The other side of the equation I get the other people, namely people who believe, who subscribe to the flat earth theory will say to me, well, you believe in Enoch, right? Some of it. Well, how then can you not subscribe to flat earth because Enoch says this, that, and the other?

And it says, for example, that the stars are these and the planets are these and blah, blah, blah. up. And so you get this very interesting conversation going. On the one hand, people are trying discredit the book of enoch because of its scientific illiteracy. And on the other hand, people are trying to convince you that in order to believe in the book of Enoch, you have to believe in a flat earth or some other theory, right? It's this weird thing going on all the time with me in my confrontations with people, my encounters with people. I don't really have confrontation and I'm sure you guys get this all the time as well. So this is very important. So, So I'm going to demonstrate to you something I've been saying for a long time and that I think is

authenticated, validated in the book of Enoch. I'm famous for saying that when you read prophecy, when you read anything that's prophetic in the Bible, you need to understand it's esoteric by nature, supposed to be esoteric. It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, okay? And it is the glory of the kings to find a thing out. So when you confront prophecy, you're dealing with iconography, you're dealing with symbolism, you're dealing with metaphor, allegory. And that's all you're dealing with. You are never dealing with anything literal, ever. That's not the context. It's not the point of a dream or a vision. If God wants to show you something literal, he will pick you up and bring you to heaven and show you. And I will submit that that has never happened.

How do I know that's never happened? Because Jesus said that no man at any time has ever ascended or descended from heaven save the son of man. So I think the context for all the rest of this prophetic stuff is dreams, visions, perception. Okay. It's interpretive. It must be unpacked. Okay. So now, in the book of Enoch, we have this.

This is within the Enoch's journeys through the earth and shale, which is with which is inside of the parables. Enoch is is having a dream in which, and much of the book of Enoch is is involved in this dream. Enoch is having a dream in which various angels are showing him things and he's seeing things and he's being shown, you know, things about the moon and the sun and the stars and so forth. Okay. And again, if you're reading this from a as a secular person, you're going to say, oh, that's interesting, but that's really stupid.

stupid, scientifically speaking, right? So I'm going to read you this little portion. And I saw other lightnings and the stars of heaven. This is within the context of one of these dreams. And I saw how he called them all by their names and they hearkened unto him. He's talking about other lightnings and the stars of heaven. And I saw how they are weighted in a righteous balance according to their proportions of light. So, okay, so these stars in heaven, some of them are brighter and they're their weighed in a righteous balance according to their proportions of light. Okay, I saw the width of their spaces and the day of their appearing and how their revolution produces lightning. Hold on a second. This is stupid, right? Stars don't produce lightning. Does anybody think stars

produce lightning? So if we're reading this literally, then we've got to conclude that stars produce lightning, which is stupid. That's ridiculous. Obviously, stars and lightning are disassociated. We know that. Okay, continuing. So, and how their revolution of the stars produces lightning. And I saw their revolution according to the number of the angels and how they keep faith with each other. Okay, now we have to concede, if we're going to take the book of Enoch literal, this dream, that the number, that the revolution of the stars is according to the number of the angels. Okay, that's really weird. All right. Continuing. And I asked the angel who went with me, who showed me what was hidden. What are these? Now, this is very important for those of you who are

reading the book of Enoch. Please hear me, and we're going to read our book of Enoch. And he said to me, the angel, the Lord of spirits hath showed thee their parabolic meaning, literally their parable. Okay? Now, the angel is going to tell us what that stuff I just, that Enoch was shown me, These are the names of the holy who dwell on the earth and believe in the name of the Lord of the spirits forever and ever. You see what happened there? So you've got this weird dream that Enoch's having and it's the stars and lightning somehow are associated and how the stars are weighed in a righteous balance according to their proportions of light, okay, and and how the width of their spaces and the day of their appearing are according to the number of the angels.

So here we go. I'm being confronted over here by the scientific people, secular people. This book is stupid. How can you believe it? Obviously, Lightning doesn't have anything to do stars. And over here on the other side, I'm being approached by the wooden literalists who are saying, wait a minute, you have to believe this because it's in the book of Enoch. And if you don't believe it, then you don't believe in the Bible or the book of Enoch. You know those kind of people. And what I've been saying, and I love that this is in the book of me, What I've been saying is, no, no, no, no, no.

Both of these people are wrong. This is esoteric. This is encrypted information that must be interpreted. It's parabolic. The Book of Enoch is largely metaphorical, and parabolic. And so is the Bible, by the way, especially as it relates to the prophecies. And so it has to be impacted. And here, the angel impacts it for him.

He said, I'm going to show you what their parabolic meaning is, what their metaphorical, symbolic meaning is and it's a very and it has nothing to do with science literacy or or a literal reading of the thing it is representing the whole the names of the holy who dwell on the earth and believe in the name of the lord of the spirits forever and ever so it represents believers those stars and they're being weighed in the balance according to the proportions of light that's just saying that they're being weighed in the balance according to what they've done in the earth and And see, so this is why is that so important? Because I want people who are in the book of enoch right now,

who have read the book of enoch or who are going to read the book of enoch to plug that in, okay? Plug that in to your reading of the book of enoch. It is absolutely, it is vitally important that you do so. And you will get much more out of it. And I just wanted to make sure that I got that in to this conversation. I love it. I mean, it reminds me of the story of the dream of King Pharaoh, you know,

And Joseph, he brought all his guys to try to interpret this dream and they got to bring Joseph in. Exactly. What are these dreams I'm having? You can't take the dreams at face value. Even Pharaoh's probably smart guy can't figure it out. And even all of his wise men can't figure it out. They got to bring Joseph to figure it out. Which is interesting because he interprets a dream that I think is the baker is going to be nailed to a tree and then restore to the right hand of the king.

Yeah. Which is a foreshadowing of Christ, which is amazing. Jesus is the bread of life. His body's the bread. That's right. And he's also with the cup bearer who's also in prison with him, who is, you know, the blood. This is my blood of the covenant. That's right. And that's about, these are the moments in scripture that we get, these little glimpses of what Jesus is going to do. It's not that he's actually going to get nailed to a tree, is getting nailed to a cross. So it's close. It's close. But it's sort of, like you said, it's, it's sort of weaved into these bigger, these smaller stories is this bigger. story. It's a story within a story, almost a dream within a dream, you know, where we're seeing multiple narratives happen and you have to have, I don't know, you have to have a mind like Joseph to understand some of these. Exactly right. That is it, Nate. That is exactly it. You have to have a mind like Joseph or like Daniel. It requires wisdom. And I'm not saying I have that mind. I'm just,

I'm dumb enough at least, or let's put it this way, I'm at least smart enough to recognize that it's not literal. And that's not very smart. But that's the beginning stage. When you encounter dreams and visions in Enoch, yes, but also in the Bible, you are no longer in a literal world. You are in an interpretive world, always on every level, every time, every word of it. Without exception, you are in an interpretive context. And I really want people to get this because sometimes I'm pulling my hair out, okay? Because, for example, I'll say, angels don't have.

have wings in the Bible and I'll get blasted with people, but what about this? And it's a, and it's a, and it's in the context of a dream or a vision where all kind of other weird things are going on that are not literal. And it's for some reason people, I'm, and if you're going to read the book, Veno, and I highly suggest you do, then right out of the gates, man, let's pull apart. Let's divide this thing in our minds and understand that we're reading a narrative. And the narrative is so, important for the underlying context of so much of the Bible. We're reading that narrative about the Watchers. One of the most epic stories ever written, in my opinion. You're reading this narrative about the Watchers and what they did and the giants and all of that. That's literal history.

By the way, to the ancient Hebrews, the Inaki and tale was literal history, and to Jesus and to the Apostles. I'm talking about the Watchers and everything that ensued and the flood and all of that. And then you look with a different mind, with different eyes. You read when someone is having a dream or a vision. You switch your bifocals and you start reading with the understanding that what you're getting is encrypted information. And you're probably not going to be able to understand what it means. I would have never really understood what that passage from Enoch that I read or Enoch would have understood that had the angel not told him what it meant. And it didn't have anything to do with stars and lightning.

at all. It was not astronomical in that sense. It was symbolic, allegorical of something else that is very practical and real. So I encourage people, as you're about, because I know a lot of people are probably already ordering our book of Enoch right now. As you're getting this book into your hands, I want you to understand something. You are holding a very complex manuscript. you are holding in your hands when you hold the Book of Enoch. As I keep saying, some of the most remarkable, extraordinary prophecies of Jesus Christ written long before he was born that are self-validating. In other words, in my estimation, rise to the level of Scripture because they're true

and accurate and testify of Jesus. And you're reading one of the most epic stories that's ever been written in regard to the watchers and the Giants. It is a fascinating read. And then on the other side, when you get to the esoteric stuff, you are going to be very well informed, at the very least when you get into the older portions of the book. You are going to be well informed of the cultural trends and perceptions of Second Temple Judaism,

which is really important. And so you've got this document, the Book of Enoch, out of all the apocryphal manuscripts, out of all of the other things that you can read in addition to the Bible, I would go so far as to say that the book of Enoch is the most important of them all. And I think that the book of Enoch, I mean, think about this, guys. Let's assume for a moment, okay? Let's assume that Enoch is indeed the author of the earliest portions of the book of Enoch,

the book of the watchers and the parables. Enoch wrote them with his hand, and they were preserved, just like Tertullian said, through the flood by the agency of the Spirit of God to be delivered to us. So that means that Enoch, who's the seventh from Adam, writing in the dawn of mankind, is addressing his book to those who would be living in the dusk to us, who would be living at the end of the age. That sense chills down my spine when I think about that, that this document, that this manuscript very well may have come from the dawn of mankind in the antediluvian world,

passed through the generations, conserved even through the 5th century, when it was expunged from the libraries of Europe, the Ethiopians conserved it. Had they not, it would have been lost forever. But there it was, conserved in the Ethiopic church and in the Ethiopic synagogues. And now we have this document. And what are the opening? verses of the book of Enoch. I'm scrolling down to it. I've got it in front of me here. The opening verses

of the book of Enoch, the words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he bless the elect and righteous who will be living in the day of tribulation when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. That's verse one. That's Enoch chapter one, verse one. So he's saying that this is being written for the righteous who will be living in the day of tribulation when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. Now there's a duality there, which I talk about my comments. I won't give it away here, but in my comments, I have a comment on that.

Verse two, and he took up his terrible and said, Enoch, a righteous man whose eyes roped by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens. Who's the Holy One? We're going to get into this, I mean, not here in this conversation, but as you read the book of Enoch, you're going to realize that the book of Enoch is above all else, a revelation of Jesus Christ.

That is what the book of Enoch is. That is the primary function of the book of Enoch. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ. So continuing on, which the angel showed me, so the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angel showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw,

but not for this generation, but for a remote one, which is for to come. Is that us? Is he talking about us? Could be. Is he not? A, the rediscovery at Coomran really sort of makes, makes that feel like it's the case.

Exactly. And what you're saying makes a lot of sense of how we try to come to the conclusions on our show, Tim. It's not just the book of Enoch. It's like we started with this idea of like, what the heck is Bigfoot, right? And you have all these scientific people who refuse to look at any of the woo-woo that comes along with this creature. And then you have all these like spiritualists that say that, oh, it's just this thing that comes through portals and is a spirit of the woods. And you're like, wait a, tracks on the ground and dumped in the yard, but it's also talking to people telepathic. So it's a,

it's a blend of all these things. It's some weird, it's some animal. It's, you know what I mean? And it's like, you have to open your mind to like both sides, but you have to land in the middle somewhere and realize that you have to have multiple perspectives and you have to have multiple like arguments with yourself to kind of sort through some of the stories and the information like you can't just take anything as uh without kind of processing through i need all i need more data here i need to make make sense of this and to climb through that i know it's silly to compare it to pigfoot but but but you just you can get pigeonholed and you can you can deny things because like no i absolutely don't think it's this so i'm not going to look at any of the

information that can counter what i've come this predetermined conclusion that i've come to and it's sad. It's sad a lot of Christians. You have a lot of fundamentalists who reject the Book of Enoch. And you have a lot of, you know, sort of progressives who reject the book of Enoch too. You have these both sides that reject, that reject the possible answers that this book can be had. And I guess my last question would be like, like, what happens to Enoch? Is, you know, this guy sounds like a badass. And is he just hop in a UFO and cruise off or What do you think? There's some interesting things. I mean, we don't have time to go into all of the different theories. Most people just assume, oh, he went to heaven. Well, that's not necessarily true.

He had visions of heaven. He may have gone to heaven. There's some debate there. You know, I think it's Paul who says by faith Enoch was translated into heaven. So there's, there's a debate as to how was he translated to heaven? Was he translated to heaven a vision? Just like Paul said, you know, I know a man who had a who basically, in paraphrasing, Paul, went to heaven, not sure if it was in the body or in a dream or vision, right? That could be the same kind of thing with Enoch. There's no question he had visions of heaven. But there is, we do know, for certain, that Enoch was taken away from, he was living

among his brethren, he was living among the other sons of Adam, and he was literally taken away. And his activities, as it says in the book of Enoch, were with the watchers. He was chosen to be an intermediary between the watchers of heaven, by the way, the watchers of heaven, the good guys, and the bad watchers. Because Enoch is not just dealing with God. He's dealing with the good watchers in heaven who are talking to him and who are, you know, that divine counsel stuff that Mike Heiser talked about

are deliberating over the sentencing and the judgment of the bad watchers on earth. And Enoch is the go between. By the way, why is Enoch the go between? Because he is a human being and it is human beings who have authority on earth. And so Enoch is being used as the emissary. and he's representing mankind as that intermediary in interfacing. Oh, he has jurisdiction. He's got jurisdiction, Tim, because the crimes can be able to.

Exactly right. And I do have some of that commentary in the book. And those of you who are familiar with Birthright know that that's some of the premise of that book. So, but anyway, I know we're almost out of time here. But let me say this. There's so much we could just keep talking about Enoch. I just so bad want to read some more of these Christological content, the oracles referencing the Son of Man.

because they're so powerful right from the book of Enoch. But you know what? Let that be a tease if you're on the fence to get the book of Enoch. You've got to read the parables. I'm telling you. It's going to add your understanding and appreciation of who Jesus is and who he was predicted to be from the dawn of mankind. It's going to enlighten and enliven your understanding of the gospel of Christ.

I absolutely encourage everyone out there, not just because of our copy of Enoch, get any copy of Enoch, read at least the book of the watchers and the parables, the parables, the two first sections in the book of Enoch. You will not be disappointed, especially if you read our copy, if you get our copy, our version of the book of Enoch, because as you're going to have my introduction and commentary. By the way, there's things in my introduction here. You're not going to find, as I said in the beginning, you're not going to find, you're going to find, you're going to think it's some people are going to be a little bit, as I said in the beginning, surprised by some of the details regarding how the Book of Enoch was discovered in Ethiopia. But you're going to not only have that information and my commentary, you're also going to have the conceptual scenes, that visual content that's going to tie some of this together. I think it's going to, you know, it's going to give people a lot of fodder for their conceptual paradigm of the antediluvian world. And it's going to cause people to think about the antediluvian world in a different way, just based on these images. and on these concept scenes.

As I said, it's a scene written in text that goes with an image and we have at least seven of these in the book. So you're going to get something in our book of Enoch that you're not going to get anywhere else. We didn't just grab an ancient text and put it through the printer and trying to sell it to you as something new. No, we put a lot of time and effort in this

to give a unique perspective. And it was a collaboration between the three of us. A lot of blood sweat and tears went into this thing. We're trying to make it as nice for you guys as possible as, you know, even in the graphics design on the cover and everything. We want you to have something in your hand that you really, really are excited about and that you can be confident in that we really did a good job putting it together. So go get our book of Enoch and get it for your friends and family, especially if you haven't read the book of Enoch. Even if you haven't read the book of Enoch, and I'll close with this guys, remember this is volume one in the Nephilim series. You want that full volume cut there.

This is volume one, and we got the other ones coming behind it, which are going to be some interesting things we've got planned. That's right. Yeah. It's like Billy Mays. Because it was like a Billy Mays. You're like, but wait, there's more. Nephilimseries.com.

That's right. Nephlemseer.com is a new website that we put up. I think we're all tempted to believe the story that we're part of is boring. And I think Enoch injects a lot of seriousness into the conversation. It is not boring. We're not living in a boring story, and Christ surely has been on the verge to come save humanity from the get-go. And it makes that the gospel so much more powerful, so much more epic. And I think a lot of people, when they see it that way, they come back.

They come running back, you know, like the prodigal son, which is a lot of what we talked about on our show. But thanks, Tim. Thanks for doing this project with us. Thanks for collaborating with the blurry verse and all the fans out there. that have loved your episodes. We're excited for a lot of projects in the future. More episodes. Who knows what's cooking up in the old mind of Tim.

He's coming up with all this. He's always got an idea he's calling me. Dude, what about this, Nate? And it's just, you know, I'm that way too. Luke's probably pulling his hair out of these two crazy guys. Well, I want to say this. Remember, Nate, we're an 80s-themed show. And so when we were talking about dreams within dreams,

we'd be remiss not to mention the impressive clergy man from the Princess Bride, who, by the way, says marriage, that dream within a dream. So not only do you have esoteric prophecy, his dream within dreams, but you also have marriage, Princess Bride, baby, 1980s. Tim Alvarino, thank you very much. Hey, go check out our book, available on Amazon, also available anywhere you can find books online, mostly Amazon. But, Tim, thanks so much.

Looking forward to many more projects, conversations, and the like. Grateful for your friendship and your time spent here with us. Yeah, this has been a great, great collaboration, super exciting, and we're going to keep it going. Roll that time, Cop, Nate.