Blurry Creatures - EP: 247 The 12 Stones/Urim and Thummim with Dr. Doug Bookman

Episode Date: June 28, 2024

Join us on this week's episode as we dive into one of the most mysterious parts of the Theocracy, the Urim and Thummim. We welcome the renowned scholar Doug Bookman to help us uncover the secrets of these ancient Israelite communication tools and their historical significance. Prepare to be captivated as Doug Bookman takes us on a journey through time, shedding light on how these mysterious objects were used to seek divine guidance and make pivotal decisions. Tune in now! Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com &Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, real quick, before we get this episode started, just wanted to say that our book of Enoch is now available on Amazon. Last week, you guys flooded Amazon and pushed the book all the way up to number 28 on the Amazon Top 100 book list. Incredible. If you want to get a copy, blurryenock.com, go to blurryenock.com, it'll take you right to Amazon to buy our book. Thank you guys so much for supporting it. We did this with Tim Alvarino, and it's been a long process. So it's out in the world. again blurry enoch.com. Let's get this show started. I think the best guess is this. Number one, I think the 12 stones are the Urimanthumi.

And my major argument is that in Exodus put the 12 stones in the ephod and then he talks about the Khosain. Once you a picture of the Kossain is sort of a bib that's doubled over and tied and you can unloose it and open it. And I think that the stones were on the inside. And I think what it means is this. Moses is being told to do is to build this Hossein, put the 12 stones, and then hide them in the Ephod. So all the pictures you always see of the high priest, you know, with them, I think he'd have to unloos it and open it because it would be a revelatory experience. This is God speaking. And I think somehow those stones were related to the actual giving of the message.

And I think possibly that the high priest would open his. Hussein, those stones would be visible and they would glow preternaturally. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen church. And the problem with the modern-day church, They have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event.

And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to blurry creatures. I don't think this is the bone zone, but we're going back to ancient times. So stone zone. Stone zone. That's right. I love the story, Nate, because the way that we get in contact with Doug, Dr. Doug Bookman,

And his daughter, Kia, shout out to Kia, is a big fan of the show. And as it would be, Dr. Doug was a prof, a professor for Dr. Michael Heiser, great colleague in front of Dr. Michael Heiser. And like all these guys, has a very interesting dissertation area of study. We're going to go back and get blur in the Old Testament like we do a lot on our show and talk about some of the obscure things that oftentimes don't really get a lot of time in sermons. And oftentimes they're a little bit confusing, so we just sort of gloss over. But we're going to go all the way back to theocracy period.

of the Old Testament where God sat on the throne for literally and physically and then for 800 years yeah it's lots of questions of I mean I know just growing up in the church I always wondered like why things in the Old Testament seems so different you know

and what was going on back then but this long period of time where it starts with Moses goes to the mountain and then how does God communicate and these like stones that you know right the Ureem

and the Thumim these these to sort of really blurry stones or or or or oracle it's an oracle that the God uses to speak to his people and this is what Doug spent his 10,000 hours on yeah

at Dallas Theological Seminary and we get the treat of sitting down and talking about you know what really happened you know from the Exodus onward through judges at the time of David and how and how God and spoke to his people. Really fascinating

dive into history, biblical history, theology, linguistics, et cetera, and kind of unpacking one of the real obscure elements of the way that God communicated in his covenant with the ancient Israelites, you know, really post-Moses up until the time of David. Yeah. Yeah, it's blurry. It's strange. And it's cool. It's like there's a lot here.

Could have taken this episode of a thousand places, but we will have to bring back on and get into a specific but thank you guys out there for supporting the show and sharing this around as always you want to become a member blurter creatures.com slash members support the show get extra bonus perks there's a lot of perks you've probably heard it a thousand times but we appreciate you guys so much for helping the show grow and become what it is let's get a doctor dug on get weird into the stone zone baby all right welcome back to blurry creatures We're always going back to the sort of biblical history, try to understand some of the weird things that happened today.

And we have Dr. Douglas Bookman on the show today. You have a PhD in Dallas Theological Seminary, and you're now teaching at Shepard's Theological Seminary. So welcome to the show. And I'm going to let you tell our listeners what we're talking about today, because I'm going to butcher it. I'm going to say the wrong thing. Doug, what is it?

Tell us our listeners what we're talking about today. Well, we're talking about a really important part of the Old Testament theocratic arrangement called the Urim and Thumim. And it means lights and perfections. It's really a single oracle, but it's part of the equipment given the high priest. And it really, I think it's fascinating insight into the period of the Old Testament called the Theocracy from Sinai to the departure of the glory cloud. Yeah. And I love this, Doug, it's great to have in the show.

One thing I want, before we get to our. question that we asked the beginning. This is really cool how this came about. Your daughter, Kia, is a fan of the show and she emailed us and said that you had talked about something that we, in our show we call Blurry. Some of the really interesting sort of not, not teased out, not sussed out aspects of the Bible you just mentioned. The high priest would kind of roll these dice is what it sounds like. And then God would sort of speak his will through this oracle, as you said. And so it was super cool to have it have it come this way. And, She also mentioned that you were the colleagues and friends with Dr. Michael Heiser,

who has been a big part of our show. We had Mike on twice. Right before he passed today, we had him on as one of the last shows he did anywhere. And he was really, his work in Unseen Rome and his, as he would say, his process and way of reading the Bible was something that really impacted us and shaped our show. So super cool that we have that connection. And super cool that you, you know, you're a doctor. We love having learned a doctor's on the show. because Nate and I joke that we're just a couple dummies to ask questions.

And we like to have the smart people on to answer the answer the questions and tell us about some of the strange things. And as Nate said, in our show, we cover all kinds of weird things in history, things people experience today. And then a lot of that is weird things in the Bible that don't get preached about on Sunday, right? Things that we just don't, that are kind of glossed over because they, you know, they're really either maybe strange or they're just hard. A lot of people don't know enough about what actually happened, as Mike would say,

because we're separated by millennia from the author and audience. There's like no foundation for some of these things, because everything goes back to Genesis. And if you get that wrong, you kind of, it seems though you misinterpret things along the way, but like, wait, what actually happened? Yeah. And we sort of talk about in Doug on our show,

like creatures specifically, you know, and we talk about the ancient giants a lot on our show. People still see these things today in remote parts of the world, and you're like, how's that even possible? So we do a lot of, like, creature sightings and stuff. but to give context to people so it doesn't just stay paranormal, we kind of go back to a lot of these parts of the Bible that are, you would quote, like kind of just off and strange, right?

And so we ask people about Bigfoot. We ask people about Bigfoot. Yes, this is going somewhere. We ask everyone at the top of the show, whether you're Dr. Michael Heiser or anyone in between, Tim Mackey, the Bible Project, or whoever, Doug, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot if you have any? Some people don't, but do you have any thoughts on?

You know, honestly, I don't, but I do believe, and this is in significant part because of my daughter's influence conversations. But I do think there are creatures roaming the earth that, you know, that are mysterious and a little scary. And I think in many cases, and probably in most, there is some sort of demonic or at least spirit connection, angelic demonic or whatever. Speaking of Mike, by the way, Mike Heiser, let me just say, he was a dear friend, he was a student of mine, and then we stayed close over the years. And actually, there's another gentleman on our staff here,

is teaches with me at the seminary, Dave Bergraf. And it was he who led Mike to the Lord and disciple him for a year for himself. We feel that we were kind of deeply invested in Mike, but by the same token, he paid us back in spades, you know. But I so much appreciated, if there's so much I appreciate about Mike and his work, I don't agree with them in all points, neither to you. but he re-excited our attention to the spirit world, the fourth dimension. We just tend to neglect that so woefully on almost every level.

And it's such an important part of the scriptures. And it just puts on display for me in a more dramatic way, the reality that human history is real. This is not some prescripted drama we're walking through, having memorized our lines on a tourie pass for I would say, this is real. And there is warfare. And I know you can get into some the odyssey and theology questions and so on, but the Bible could not be more clear. And so I just so much honor, Mike, and obviously we were all sad to see him taking quite so soon, but he being dead yet speaketh, that for sure. Wow.

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That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. new customer offer for first three months only, then full price, plan options available, taxes and fees extra, cement mobile for details. That's cool. Love that, man. So you were Mike's teacher. That's even cooler.

What a rich history and legacy, not only for yourself as well. Yeah, so let's do this. Let's get into it. I love when we're emailing back and forth, this period, as you said, is what's considered theocracy period of the Old Testament. And that's really important when it comes to, you know, some of the weird things, specifically the Urim and the Humim. It'll come.

Yeah, you know what? We had an episode we've ever released yet, but we did on McHesled Dick. And I'll probably just said that wrong. But, you know, we're working. We're working progress, Doug. Yeah. But take us back and start us off. Where do we start with all this?

Well, listen, I'm going to work my way through a bit of a presentation. I give it just because that way it'll be kind of logical and we'll read things out. But what we're talking about, as I said, is the Uriam and the Thumim. Now, number one, those are two plural nouns joined by the Walkin Second, and it seems like they ought to be treated as plural. But in the Bible, they are not. And as you might expect, and I'm going to push back against your roll in the dice. Well, I'm wrong then. Doug, I'm good with that. I need to start out with an emphasis on what we've

mentioned a couple of times, and that is the theocracy. And the word theocracy simply means rule by God. And that word is used rather broadly. any religious, any state that has sort of a religious component as part of it. But actually, there's only been one theocracy in human history. And it was established by Yahweh. It was offered by Yahweh at Mount Sinai. Israel had been brought out of Egypt, the Exodus experience. Moses has brought them to the foot of this Mount Sinai. The glory cloud has taken its position atop Mount Sinai and its fire and thunder and, you know, a scary reminder of the majesty of God and the people are down below. And God offers them a covenant by which he will be their king.

I like to say that what happened to Mount Sinai was that the family of Abraham became the nation of Israel at the foot of Mount Sinai because Yahweh offered them a remarkable covenant relationship by which they, he would be their king. And not in some spiritual lives abstract, morphous way. He would be their king in the sense that he would dwell in their midst to the person of the glory cloud. He would direct them in every way. His people could approach him, and he gave seven different sacrifices, which would qualify you to approach King Yahweh. I mean, stand before him in the court, as did Hannah when she begged for a child and so on. So God offered them this relationship by which they would be his people and he would be their king.

He would remain their God, but he would be their physical king. This never happened before and never happened since. That arrangement, the theocratic arrangement by which Yahweh ruled physically in the midst of his people, and endured from 1446, because that's when the exodus happened, from 1446 until 592. Because in 592, and you remember perhaps that the temple, this is, Solomon's temple, but Solomon's temple is going to be destroyed in 586, and Israel is going to be captive to Babylon. So I like to say that six years earlier, King Yahweh got out of Dodge, as aware, because the glory cloud departs, and this is Ezekiel 8, 10, and 11, but especially in chapter 11,

Ezekiel in vision stands, and these visions are real. I'm preaching to the choir here, but these people, I always tell people, don't confuse what happens in the middle of your night with your, nocturnal meanderings of the subconscious. That's not the dreams and visions number 12. God said, when I speak to a prophet, I'll speak to him in a vision and a dream. And that's where I appreciate so much Mike Seymokhizer's focus on the reality of this other world. And it's just as real. There is a fourth dimension to which we have no more access than God allows us. But when he does, in the sense of a prophet, for instance, take them into this very real, more real than our three dimensions, if you don't mind.

But the point is that Yahweh, Ezekiel stands in vision. He's in Babylon, but he's brought in vision. I think his body's still in Babylon, but he is standing there in a real sense of Mount Olives, on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and he watches as the glory cloud reluctantly departs. The story's kind of interesting because Ezekiel's heart is broken, and the glory cloud lifts up and stands over the eastern gate of the temple, and then comes and hovers for a time over the Mount of Olives itself, and then departs.

That is the, I like to say, suspension of the theocratic arrangement. Now, I say suspension because, and I know this is guys for another place and other time, but I'm a premillennialist and I believe that that glory cloud, that Jesus, not the glory cloud, but the Jesus is going to one day reign physically in Israel and that kingdom relation, that theocratic relationship will be restored. But what's important here is, and what is so almost so woefully overlooked, is the simple reality that for about 800 years, Yahweh, the God of the universe,

did in the person of the glory cloud, reign in the midst of his people. And by the way, the first thing that God demanded after they had accepted the covenant, he offered the covenant, which we know is the Mosaic covenant, Sinaitic covenant, the law. What is going on there is Yahweh is offering this relationship

by which he would be their king. It was ratified in Exodus 24 with the spring of the blood. And first thing that happens is God calls Moses up into the mountain, and he begins to give him meticulous, careful instruction as to how to build the tabernacle. The tabernacle is a throne room. It does seem to reflect some other throne rooms of other countries and so on, and I think that would be appropriate that God would craft his throne room, so it would be recognizable as a throne room. But that Holy of Holies that had only the Ark of the Covenant and the Ark of the Covenant, I always tell people, if I talk about the Ark of the Covenant, you're thinking of a really big boat.

You need to spend more time in the old testament, but if you know what I'm saying. But the Ark of the Covenant, that box that was carefully cracked with the carved cherubim, that was Yahweh's throne. And so, and what happens is after Yahweh describes how is to be built and so on, then Moses goes down and gathers the material. And actually, it's kind of interesting because the Israelites had been in Egypt for 400 years. They've been making mud bricks. They were real good of mud bricks. They had no artisans of any other kind. They had to build a tabernacle.

So God sends this remarkable enabling ministry of his spirit that's sometimes called theocratic anointing. And it comes upon these two guys, a holy ab and Bezileo. And I like to say, they go to bed one night and they're dufous like I am. And they get up in the morning and they're artificers and every sort of, you know, so they had every craft, every ability and so on, woodworking, metallurgy and so on in order to build the tabernacle. So they go to bed and they wake up like Bob Villa.

Yeah. A regular old Bob Villa. Oh no, I'm thinking of Norm Abrams. You're thinking about Bob Villa. I just thinking like, what a wild. You make an interesting point, like these slave laborers for 400 years who are doing grunt work. And then God wakes a few these guys up in there like Michelangelo's when they, when they wake up and they can do. The important thing is to it is not that God gave just miracle, you know, there's a tabernacle.

What they could do, there were thousands of other people who could do, but they'd spend half a life apprenticing to learn how to do it. These guys, this God does this again and again. This is where, I shouldn't get off on that. It's a crazy download. All of a sudden you have all these skills and abilities and what a... Well, I think for instance, just quickly, of Saul. Saul of Gibiot.

He was a coward, but the Spirit of God comes upon in Chapter 11, and he hears about this city that's under siege over in the other side of the Jordan, he marches all night and gets all the people together and so on, and where did that come from? I mean, that was a coward to doofus, but all of a sudden, matter of fact, I always say that I think when we think of the judges, every time, anytime you have any narrative about one of the judges, it says specifically the Spirit of God came about him.

And I like to say, I think maybe Samson was like, you know, five foot two and high voice and got a potbelly and maybe a pocket person. You know what I'm saying? But Spirit come upon him and where'd that come from? You see that again and again. Start speaking like an Austrian. Yeah, that's what made Solomon. He got a double portion of that.

I asked for a special portion of that, the enabling. All right, but to go back to it, so Yahweh has become king, but he needs a throne room. So Moses goes down, a Holy heaven, Bezileo, have this capacity. They gather the material. And then it says in Exodus chapter 40, they finished the work that is on the tabernacle. And this is a spectacular scene. The glory cloud, which had been hovering above Mount Sinai for all of those months, lifts up and takes its presence into.

Now, I don't think it was entirely encased. I think it was, at least a penumbra, was visible. But at any rate, the glory cloud moves into the Holy of Holies. That is the enthroning of King Yahweh in his newly crafted throne-room tabernacle. Now, that tabernacle is going to suffice for some. 300 years, and then there's going to be some exciting and finally excitement, and they're going to rebuild it as a temple in the days of Solomon. So throughout all those 800 years from 1446, that's when the tabernacle was constructed and Yahweh moved in until 592 when Ezekiel watched

the glory cloud depart. Yahweh was in every physical, palpable, functional, practical sense, the king in Israel. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room.

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And so first it's Moses. And Moses has a very special place. He knows God face to face and so on. It's stunning. God bunks with him for a few weeks, remember, after the golden calf incident. But, oh, yeah. And then the glory cloud go out and, you know, spend the night and Moses then go back. But, but, but, and then Moses, of course, turn it over to Joshua. And after Joshua, you have 300 years where there's not one central leader, but there are these local leaders. And in every case, as I say, Yahweh enables them to do the job that's in front of them. And then, of course, the last of those judges is Samuel. And Samuel, one of the great, great heroes of the Old Testament, is Samuel is distinctive in that he is the only judge who ministers to the entire nation.

And he brings them back, dragging them by their beard, if you don't mind, to some state of spiritual and community health. And that is, they were just, everybody in, doing that, which is right in his own eyes until Samuel comes along. And all Israel knew that Samuel was appointed to be a prophet of the Lord for Samuel 3. And so when Samuel gets old, the nation, the elders say, we don't want to go back to what it was before. When we were fighting and I like to say that for the 300 year of the period of judges, there was only one time when you got a number of the tribes in unison against the common enemy. And actually it was 11 tribes, but the common enemy was the 12th tribe, Benjamin's dog.

We don't want to go back to that. And so Samuel's, they say of Samuel, 1st Samuel 8, make us a king. And that's a lot going on there. But this was purely in the purposes of God. And so in point of fact, he does tell Samuel to anoint a king. And that king, of course, is going to be Saul. And after 40 years, he's going to be replaced by David, some adventure there. And then David, of course, after 40 years, is going to pass the,

grown to Solomon. So that's the United Monarchy. And now, now I'm mentioning these things only make this case, that whether it was Moses, Joshua, individual judges, the succession of kings, in every case, that human ruler was to understand he was only the viceroy, he was only the little K king, the big K king was dwelling in the tabernacle. There was a hiatus where the The glory cloud actually left when the ark was carried into battle and so on, and the glory cloud of the tabernacle wander about a bit. And then they're brought back in the days of David brings the ark up to Jerusalem. And then Solomon builds the temple, puts the ark in it.

In First Kings 8, here comes the glory cloud, moves in again. But even though there was a period where the glory cloud was in absentia, nonetheless, the people were to understand and it lived very really physically in light of the fact, that Yahweh was their king. All right, now, all that is a backdrop to the Uri-Mundthumi. Because, again, that human mediator, let's say it this way, if this is the arrangement, you have King Yahweh, and he accepts or appoints a certain individual, and sometimes certain individual in a certain part of the country, but at any rate, they are raining in his stead. One would expect that there would be some sort of, I like to say, red telephone, that there would be

a means by which that human leader could contact headquarters for heaven's things. That's the Uriam and Thu Kyi. Now, it's to me by wit. The mediator is the best term probably, but the person who had been appointed to represent Yahweh before the covenant people could actually take the initiative and inquire of Yahweh. And so it becomes, I mean, given this arrangement as it's spelled out, as I just said this, but given this arrangement, as it's spelled out so clearly in Scripture, one would expect that this would be the case, and in point of fact, it is.

Now, is that what we're talking about for a minute? Should I go on to the... I have a question on that. And I know this is going to play into talking about that is, you know, Moses and Yahweh, they have all these face-to-face moments, or if you will, or he doesn't actually see the face of God, because I know that he wants to pass, the presence walk, you know, passed by him, but he has these conversations, if you will, with Yahweh.

at what point is that each of the leaders seem to have something similar to maybe I think about Samuel as well and in his visions but does that once the tabernacle is made does it sort of that face-to-face communication then shift to to the high priest at that point? No I think I think the role remains the same in Libycicus 7 let me just read to it all right with regard to your question you know it's Libyx 8 and verse 7 I'm not really. Yeah. This is where Moses is actually transferring the authority to Aaron. It's a physical ceremony.

Yeah. And Moses brought Aaron and his sons washed with water. He put the tunic on him, girded him with the sash. These are all elements of the crease of garments, clothed him with the robe, put the Ephod on him. And he girded him with the intricately woven band of the Ephod, tied the Eiffon on him. And then he put the breastplate on him. And he put the Urim and Thumim in the breastplate. Now, That's the investor. Oh, God. It's the numbers 27, I want. That's where now he is about to pass the scepter, as it were, to Joshua. And it's, on numbers 27, take Joshua the son have done with you, and lay your hand on him, set before Eleazar the priest, before all the congregation, and inaugurate him in their sight. And here it is, and you shall give some of your authority to him. Now, in my new King James here, trusty, dusty, I've got the word sum in italics, and that's not in appropriate, but the grammar is such that he is saying a portion of. And what it says it literally is, you shall give of your authority. Not give your authority, give of your authority. And you know, it says twice at the end of Durania again at the beginning of Joshua that there was never a man like Moses who knew God face to face and so on. And Moses was the law giver. You know, Joshua is going to be the law keeper. But Moses had a very, very special place. He never utilizes the Urim and Thumim because he speaks to God face to face.

I was going to, I think I was going to ask kind of, that's, that's interesting. It's a juxtaposition before what happens after he passes his authority. It's quite explicit. It's quite explicit. And again, Moses is, that's a pretty spectacular relationship he had with the. Why do you think they have to build the tabernacle at all then? If Moses can communicate directly, why do you think that they have to build some sort of structure? Yeah.

Well, because this is going to be ongoing. And I think it is so very important, guys, that Yahweh did. All right, I'm going to talk theology for just a matter of way. That's fine. That's great. One of my favorite verses is Jesus responding to Pilate when he says, You say rightly that I'm a king. It was for this purpose that I was born and this purpose, that I speak to this truth,

that he is going to reign on this earth. And I'm hungry for that day, the kingdom. But the fact is that some people are a little off-put by the idea of God reigning on this physical earth. There's a little bit of platonic, gnaistic dualism going on here. But, you know, there's this idea that there's something untoward about, oh, no, he did reign on this earth for 800 years. And although Israel proved itself again and again to be covenant breakers, to be feckless, to be just so hard-heartedly disobedient that God had to fulfill his covenant. remember his covenant was, I'll bless your obedience and curse your disobedience. And so they had to fulfill that covenant by putting them under the heel of Gentile dominion.

But the point is that for those 800 years, God did reign. And he promised that he would bless their obedience. And there is that one season, there are a couple of others during the days of Hezekiah, even Josiah. But the one season, when Israel, first of all, with its leadership and then its eldership and then the people and so on, when they seem to have given Yahweh opportunity to fulfill that first part of the covenant to bless their obedience is David and Solomon. And think about it. During the days that David and Solomon, while you're kicking silver around in the street, might as well have gold. And all of those characterizations of Solomon's wealth,

thus Solomon's going to abandon it. He's going to fall in love with the things of this earth, no doubt about it. But when David turns the kingdom over to Solomon, there's not a proud boast you can make in the Middle Eastern world than I am an Israelites. And people were coming from the world over just to see. So Yahweh, for those 800 years, proves himself a covenant-keeping God against the backdrop. I say within the context of this people who are his people, and he's so carefully, it's amazing. I have a friend who likes to say, God is a sucker for repentance. And he's so patient with the people, but he judges him finally, but at the first moment of godliness, and he comes swooping in and gives him victory and treasure and so on. So, yeah, I think

the Moses was God's instrument, obviously, to establish this remarkable theocratic relationship. Yeah. But that relationship is going to endure for 800 years. And I'm, I'm convinced that, I don't know if I'm too given to superlatives, but certainly one of the most important, attributes, dynamics, characteristics of God that he so carefully works to make sure we understand is that he is a God who keeps covenant. He's a God who keeps His Word. And that's why I love, I know I get like everybody else, I got to go back and straighten out all the kings. I love going through the monarchy in all of its parts. You get into the divided monarchy and, you know, you can't keep track which kingdom you're in and always in a while just see if we're paying attention.

God has a king in the north with the same name as a king in the side. you know, but you'd sort that all out and make your way through that history. It is stunning, the degree to which God's covenant-keeping character is on display. So. Transport your senses with Sol de Janeiro's limited edition perfume mist collection at Sephora. Sprits on lush notes of rainforest orchid and crisp seabreeze with have fresco paraizo. Embrace a floral and fruity scent inspired by Rio's nude beach with cheeky bikini or

capture sun-kissed bliss with limonada jolada, where zesty Brazilian lemonade accord meets coconut milk and golden brown sugar. Don't miss Sol de Janado's limited edition perfume miscollection only at Sephora. So surrounding nations have human rulers and they have human kings. And do you think this is like the way that ultimately the Israelites get frustrated? They don't have something that feels more tangible, someone who's like right there they can talk to. Do you think that maybe there is more time involved between trying to communicate with God and figure out what he wants them to do? And so they're like, dang it, we just want like an actual human being to tell us what to do. Well, I'm going to agree and disagree.

How's that for politics? Yeah, I don't know. It's a question. So I'm not sure. Yeah, there is no doubt that in 1 Samuel 8, when they demand a king of Samuel, he's the last judge, but he's getting old. they make us a king like other nations. I don't think the issue was capacity to communicate because, number one, those other gods,

to whatever degree, there was any sort of, either they were just a face carved on a tree or they were a face carved on a tree, which had become demonically energized at some level. But at any rate, and you know that the machinations that the pagan priests had to go through just to get some sort of supposed message and so on. So those gods were functionally mute. Yahweh was responsive, as I said, there were seven sacrifices in Lampedicus 1 to 5.

And those seven sacrifices, no matter what impulse you had in your heart, there was a sacrifice where you could go, you could never appear before Yahweh but without ritual cleansing. So you came by means of a blood sacrifice. They weren't even all bloody. One of them was, of course, a meal sacrifice. But at any rate, you wanted to thank God, if you wanted to, for instance, as Hannah did, just plead for a child. You could offer the appropriate sacrifice, which is a peace offering. And a peace offering could be used as a votive or a bow offering. So now you have cleansed yourself and you can stand right before Yahweh. And the priest came and told her, yeah, you're going to have that kid right away. So Yahweh wanted to interact. Now there were certain instances. I think. This is how I understand the two non-savory that is not sweet smelling that were the sin offering and the trespass offering. And I think those you probably had God required. That is, if you've been caught in fevery, you'd pay the fourfold, but now you had to come back and stand before Yahweh and make it right before him. So there they were required. But on the other hand,

honestly, Nate, I think the attraction was, I think the Israelites again and again grew weary. of having all of their fortunes tied to their spiritual state. And the lure of the pagans was not that they were more communicative, but rather that they didn't require. As a matter of fact, those religions encouraged every sort of wickedness and so on. But on the other hand, and let me, one other thing in that regard, Yahweh, in choosing Israel, he was in the most dramatic and effective and gracious sense, he was finding a way to put himself on display before a world who wasn't interested in him.

And so the whole business of the special relationship with Israel is to use them, as he said in Exodus 19, one of the most important person in the Old Testament, X-196, you're going to be a kingdom with a priestly function. Remember that? It says a kingdom of a priest, but not that everybody in Israel could be a priest. we know better, but a kingdom as a nation through whom Yahweh would put himself on display and other, even the law system, the law system, we kind of treat the law with a little bit of contempt because we're saying, wow, I'm glad not under the law, we're under grace. Oh, amen and amen.

But that law system was bottomlessly clever, judicious, equitable. And Deuteronomy 4 says that in the Deutton, I'm sure, he says that other nations will look at that law system, but they'll say, what nation is there that has a God like this to make a law system? So, Yahweh's rule was certainly a means by which the means by which, a very important means by which God would demonstrate his covenant keeping character in the most practical, unmistakable way. It was also the means by which he would put himself on display to the rest of the world. And that's why you have all of this instruction concerning the stranger in your midst and all

of these what we call proselytes. or devout men. And they were attracted to the religion of, they were attracted to Yahweh and his wisdom and his grace and his power and his integrity and so on, as opposed to their gods who were none of the above, shall we say.

Well, is there any relation to Eden and what you just described? Yes. I think that the storyline, as my dear friend and colleague Mike Vlock, who just wrote a book, this that the storyline of the Bible is this much blessed kingdom, which was the Garden of Eden. So man was put there, had definite responsibilities, and it was squandered. God was not surprised by it.

He was, I think his heart was broken. I can handle both of those things. But nonetheless, God is about the business of restoring that kingdom relationship in days to come. And the the accuracy is a very flawed, but very real, at least harbinger of that, that to have Yahweh ruling in your midst and blessing and so on. So I don't think there'll be any cursing in the kingdom to come. But, yeah, I think Eden is the model, what's the word of primordial kingdom, the kingdom to come, first of all, the thousand-year kingdom, which is only the first stage in the eternal kingdom is the ultimate kingdom.

And this theocratic kingdom is, like I say, it's instructive and it's encouraging as far as God's capacity to do this. So Moses has this sort of one-on-one relationship with Yahweh, and then he passes, that's interesting because I never thought about this, but he passes a portion of his authority, not all of it, to Joshua. And that's when this or this this this this portion comes in, right? Because now no longer are Yahweh and Moses having face-to-face conversations. In fact, the game changes, if you will, a little bit because now these, the next in line is you talk about. Because there's no ruler, but the leader. Yeah. It goes to Joshua, son of none.

He is in the priesthood are now sort of have a different way or different methodology in which to communicate with. with the king. And I know you started the very beginning kind of explaining what the Urim and the Thumim, what that means. And it's a singular. Oracle. It's just one. It's Oracle, right? And so how does this whole thing work thing? Because now it's not, now it's not Moses being like, hey, listen, listen, God, these people, they're wearing me out. We've got to figure something out here. It's, it's different. Exactly. Let me, let me go back then. And I'm just going to work my way through the passages that deal with the Urim and Thumi real quickly. I say real quickly, but expeditiously,

let's put it that way. It's interesting that there are only seven times in the Old Testament when the Urim and Thumim is mentioned specifically. Now, sometimes it's only the Urim, and one time it's only the Thumim, but it's clearly a reference to this oracle. I'm going to walk it through those real quickly. I'm not going to go to the passages, but Exodus 28, I read that, is where in the design of the high priestly vestments, it's just said, make the breastplate of judgment and put the Urim and Thumim in there first time it's mentioned and then leviticus ours read that but that's where aaron is being clothed and in point of fact he says he put the urim and thumum him and the numbers 27 which also read

which says that joshua was given the uriamundum he would have some of the authority and then in deuteronomy 33 in moses he is blessing the 12 the 12 sons of jacob and he comes to levi and he says that levi would possess, and here it's in reverse order, but it says that he will possess, let your Thumim and your Urim be with your Holy One. I should start. Verse 8 of Levi, he said, let your thumimim and your Urim be with your holy one, whom you're tested a messan, whom you contended. I won't go further with that.

But the point is, well, I'll just say that, but this, but Levi and Simeon had earlier done a wickedness against Shechem. And as a result of that, remember, they slaughtered the Shachimites. God had said, you're not going to get a portion. But later on, when Moses came down from the mount and they had built the golden altar, and the Bible says they sat down to eat and rose up to play. And now he said, it's not croquet, if you know what I mean. And so God comes down, Moses comes down, and he says, whoever is on the Lord's side,

do something about this. And it's Levi who goes and puts to death those who are involved. And so as a result of that, because they had proven their loyalty to Yahweh, they were given control Levi. And they're going to be the priestly tribe. And one family within those, the family of Aaron going to be the priest. But so that's where he is, he is appointing, Moses is appointing that tribe to the priestly office. And he mentions that they will, the Thumim and the Urim now. It could be that Moses is just trying to pick up on Uriam.

Fumim, lights of perfection. And maybe he wants to reverse it and say brilliant lights or something like that. Just emphasize it. But anyway, it's the same oracle. And then twice more in 1 Samuel 28, interestingly, when Saul tries to consult, this is Saul just before the battle of which he'll die. And remember, he tries to consult God. But he went in the Bible says that the Lord would not speak to Saul by prophet,

Hulim or dreams. And those seem to be the three means by which God could speak to you, but he was denied that access. And then twice, once in Ezra, once in Nehemiah, the restoration community, there's a dispute as to whether or not a certain family is Levitical. And if they're Levitical, they get to live on the ties, the people. And so they consult all the records, and twice, once Ezra, once Nehemiah, and I imagine this was a recurring thing and all the confusion of going and coming from Babylon and so. But twice, they say that we can't settle this until a priest arises who can consult with the Uremen Thumi, which seems to indicate by then it was gone.

And it was. This is after the theatrical arrangement. All right. So now that's not real helpful. But here's, if we get into the tall grasp, there are only seven times where the Oracle is mentioned. And it's never mentioned in any sort of descriptive narrative. We get any hint whatever as to how it was used to whatever. Yeah.

This is a Bose moment. Your 10 boring blocks from home until the beat drops in Bose clarity. And the baseline transforms boring into maybe the best part of your day. Your life deserves music. Your music deserves Bose. Find your perfect product at Bose.com. On the other hand, there are 20-some places in the narrative of the old tell. And specifically in judges through First Samuel,

where in the narrative, there are a couple of syntactical indications that the Urim is at stake, and they are these. If you have the word, and these are almost, I tried to demonstrate the veracity of this in my dissertation, but I didn't come up with it. This is pretty much universal. It's knowledge that if you have, number one, Shaul, which means to inquire the verb Shaul, with the bait of, and then the name of Yahweh, you're Elohimiaway, that that is pretty sure that you can be pretty positive that you're dealing with the urim and thumich that makes sense to inquire

of yahweh or if you have what is clearly an oracular narrative they're consulting with god and the priest and the and the and the ephot are mentioned go fetch the ephod well uh the ephod is the garment within which was the urim and thumi when you do that you you can identify several very instructive narrative passages where you can see the Uriamthumium actually being employed to one degree of detail or another, and you get an idea of what it's all about. Now, let me just stop and say, this is big, it's technical, but it's got to be on the table. Up until I wrote my dissertation, and actually, that's not quite true because, well, it was universally understood that the Uriamund Thumi was just another expression of the sacred lot.

Now, this is back to your point, Luke, with the rolling guides, because there is, there is this lot, And that's what it's called, the sacred lot. Proverbs 16 says, the lot is cast in the lab, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord. And this is what's called, and let me just say up front, this is not that we're in them to me. It was universally thought to be identical. I set out to prove that it wasn't identical. Now, I'll just say that I got about two years in and a remarkable scholar by the name of Cornelis B. And Dam, who was writing in Holland, wrote my dissertation in front of me.

and I was in trouble and I had to, but it worked out, okay. I had to go back. He did demonstrate very, very nicely. I think he was wrong, or no, you say, if you're out, I'm in your dad, okay. But I think he was wrong about several other things, and that's why I was able, I got the letter from Dallas seminary that said started over, you know, but I said, I'll back up here, I think so. At any rate, he kind of, he really, and pretty much throughout much of the academic world,

he demonstrated to their satisfaction that, no, Urim and Thumim is a life form of its own. The sacred lot is something else. Now, the sacred lot is what's called a binary lot, and that is flipping a coin, rolling dice. It's only able to choose between stated alternatives. So, for instance, Aiken. Yes or no.

Or, you know, it's kind of like... Yes or no. This one or that one. That's exactly right. And so Aiken, what happens is when they realize they're sitting in the camp after the defeated eye, they call the 12 tribes together, 12 stones. This is my

imaginary reconstruction. I think probably it was something like drawn straws because they probably take 12 stones and one of them has a special mark on it. They all feel about the same and everybody reads and pull one out. No one that gets the mark. And this is the language of the old test with the lot

fell upon him or he was taken by the lot. So now it's that tribe. Maybe there are 20 families, 20 stones drawn out. You just choose between those state at all turns until you get down to Aiken. This is what happened with the scapeville that they cast the sacred lot. This happens all the time in the Old Testament,

sometimes in the same context as the Urim. But the Urim, and this was the substance of my dissertation, oh, I'm not gonna bore you with it, but I went through and traced those places where by reason of those syntactical hints, you could be confident that we got the Uriam and Thum, even the narrative. And then I demonstrated that in every single case,

There is something about the answer in the narrative which a binary lot could not produce. So specifics. It offers specifics. It could be specific sometimes. Honestly, Luke, sometimes it's just emphasis. Will they come and chase me out of Kyla? They, it's the Greek, I'm sorry, the Hebrew, the infinitive concept, they will certainly come. Well, you can get heads, you can get tails.

You can get heads for sure. Right, right. So this may be just emphasis. It may be that two questions are asked and the one is answered. You know what I'm saying? If you ask two questions, you've got to know. But sometimes it's remarkably specific. The most interesting is when David, the Philistines are coming up to attack

and David inquires and the Lord says, go down and hide in the valley, split your army on either side, and wait until you hear the sound of the rushing in the trees. Remember the wind in the trees and then attack? Well, you're going to flip a lot of coins. There's a lot of answers. And the thing about it is, I'm going to say it again, that this is exactly, I think, what we would anticipate, that Yahweh would provide a means by which he could propositionally,

in sentence form, respond to an inquiry. Now, let me just say that exactly how that worked out. We can talk about it in a minute, but we're really, we don't know for sure. You know, we talk about, you know, flipping coins or rolling dice, or that's easy to picture, right? And then when we talk about the verses of them, putting them in the, in the EFOT,

how do you imagine, since we don't have a lot of descriptives around this, how do you imagine these are, are they stones? Are they, what are we talking about as far as like, just to kind of imagine, as we're talking to this, we're imagining what they're doing? There's a heavy dollar of of imagining here, okay? but I think the best guess is this. Number one, I think the 12 stones are the Uriam and the Thumi.

And my major argument is that in Exodus, put the 12 stones in the ephod and then I build the, he talks about the, the Qasain, I get them confused, the Kossain, which is, once you're a picture of the Kossain is sort of a bib that's doubled over and tied. Yeah. And you can unloose it and open it. And I think that the stones were on the inside. And I think what it means is this. And I believe this with two or three fibers of my being, if you know what I'm saying.

I'm not going to get up here. But I think what Moses is being told to do is to build this, Hussein, put the 12 stones, and then hide them in the Ephod. So all the pictures you always see of the high priest, you know, with them, I think he'd have to unloosin and open it because it would be a revelatory experience. This is God speaking. And I think somehow those stones. were related to the actual giving of the message.

Now, as long as I'm here, let me say, and I don't think this is true, that the Jewish sages, the Talmudic references and so on, and they're all over the place as usual. But the prevailing mentality is that God spelled out the message through the glowing of those letters, the names of the tribes. One of the problems with that is some of the messages relayed in the scriptures because not all 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet are on there.

So they actually have another stone with some other words on it, some blessing so they can pick up the other letters there. I don't think that's the case. I'll just cut to this much of the quick. I think the way it happened is this. Well, let me say first of all that, and I refer to the thick, the Urim and Thumim, the consultation of the Uriam and Thumim as the theocracy in miniature. Because the whole relationship kind of crystallizes here.

Because on the one hand, Yahweh is king. And he's going to give the orders. On the other hand, you don't approach, even the king, doesn't approach Yahweh except through the priesthood. Yeah. And so you have the high priest. But now you have theocratic leader, the king, say, and then you have the people.

And, you know, a lot of, I would say the majority, I'm quite sure the majority of the places where we can be confident that the Uri Muntumian is actually being used. In the majority of the cases, it's warfare. He's giving marching orders again and again. So you have the people and even the soldiers, the army, they need direction. I'm sorry, king will go to the priest. Now, it doesn't have to be at the tabernacle temple. There's a lot of confusion.

But some people say it has to be clearly it doesn't give in the narrative. again and again. But what it does is says you stand before the Lord. And I think that's more attitudinal than it is geographic. You realize you're standing before the king. So you inquire of the priest. Now, I think this is the way perhaps it worked. And Yahweh would actually give the message in prophetic fashion to the priest. He would simply, as he does with other prophets, give him the message. I love what it says in 1 Samuel 9, where it says he whispered in Samuel's ear. You know, I mean, is that real that the message is given? And then he would relay that to the king.

But now, here's a big issue. That had to be absolutely non-counterfeitable. There had to be some supernatural element. If there wasn't, it could be easily counterfeited, and it never is. As crooked as the priest were, they never try to counterfeit or corrupt. And there's never any question. If it comes to the Urum and Thumim, everybody that quick. And I think possibly that the high priest would,

open his Hossein, and those stones would be visible, and they would glow preternaturally. There would be some supernatural, non-counterfeitable. Now, the Talmud, again, the rabbis do remember the stones glowing. And so I think it's gotten really, really confused. But so I think it makes, I don't know, it makes, I think it has to, it, it has to, it, Certainly the message has to be absolutely clear. It can't be muddled. It can't be Delphic, you know, where you get some totally ambiguous, you know.

It's got to be absolutely clear. And by the same token, it's got to be, there's got to be something about the process. And most of the scholars that I spent a lot of time with, they will rather incidentally, but they'll make this point. There had to be something about the process, which was supernatural, which, by the way, is how God always vindicates his word, you know, miracle. How are they going to know that you sent me, you know, in Exodus chapter four? Well, throw it down, pick it up, put your hand in, take it out.

It's miracle that God uses all throughout Scripture. Rabbi, we know that our teacher sent from God because no man does these miracles, which you're doing except God be with him. So I think there was some supernatural element to the actual conveying of the message. I like that, though, because it makes it something you can't manipulate, right? It couldn't be used to essentially manipulate for the wishes or the agenda of man. If it's not something that can be replicated or counterfeit. Absolutely.

And we know something about the priestly class throughout the Old Testament. If they could have, it would. It would have, you know, but they never do. It's almost like a wax seal like the ring, you know. Yeah. Like sort of an idea. It's God putting his seal. That's a good parallel.

Doug, why do you feel like God communicate? to human beings in a different way than perhaps maybe we would set up a system that would be a little bit easier. Why do you think God communicates to his people in these fashions? Well, my impression is a little different. I'm just impressed with how carefully arranged this is, you know, that you always... Yeah. See, because I go back to it, the whole business of the theocracy, or I say the business.

What's so much underappreciated, if not high-handedly, the night is that God was really physically ruling in Israel. And that takes some special arrangements along the way. Yeah. And God doesn't, you don't take, well, it was done once and it was wicked, but, and the glory cloud was going. But you don't take the glory cloud into battle and so on, but so to have means by which, I'll tell you, and to that other point real quickly, one of the places, and it's really stunning, you guys. where you have the Ulreim dramatically in place is in Judges chapter 20. Now, this is that horribly wicked, melancholy story of the battle against the Benjaminites, the wickedness at Gibbyah and 11 tribes go to battle against the

tribe of Benjamin because of the wickedness done by that. Levi was making his way up to Ephraim with his concubine and got, and Givya, the men of give you did sodom and gomorrah to him quite frankly and so the other nations the other tribes all joined in battle against benjamin and it was it was a divinely called battle they were called they were to be punished but the point is that the other 11 tribes consult with yahweh and when they do yahweh sends them into battle they go into battle and they lose 20 000 men let me see here judges 20 starts in verse 18 says that children of Israel rose up, went to the house of God, to inquire of God.

And this is at Gibby, and it could be, they were actually going to the tabernacle. And it was nearby. And they say, which should go first? And then he said, and God says, Judah. And so they go to battle, and they're defeated, 20,000 men. So what do they do? They go back. And they ask, counsel of the Lord saying, shall I again draw near for battle?

The Lord said, go up against him. So he did. And again, he went out and cut down 18,000 more. and 22,000, that 18,000. And then it says all the children of Israel, all the people went up and came to the house of God. Now, listen, there's a lot of question as to exactly where the house, where the tabernacle is situated.

This is that period when it's rather wandering about. And it very possibly is on Gibbyon. And if you stand at Gibbyah where this battle is taking place, and you can look at the next hill to the west and there's Gibbyon. So, but at any rate, they went up and came to the house of God and wept, and they sat there before the Lord and fasted until the evening, and they offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and the children of Israel inquired the Lord again. There it is again. And saying, shall I yet again go out to battle against the children? And the Lord said, go up for tomorrow, I'll deliver me. And he did. So it's really kind of stunning that it is to, this passage to me is really compelling evidence of not only the reality of the Radical arrangement and the oracle, which was the Hori Muthumi, but the people understood, the nation understood that their God was Yahweh, and this is how he communicated. And you'd have to, I'm sure there were a lot of conversations and this and that around,

this and that campfire, those nights, you know, say, what in the world should we? But what they finally do is they go back and inquire of God again. I mean, it's stunning. And finally, God does, in fact, Yahweh. King Yahweh gives them explicit instructions as how to ambush Kibiya. and they're victorious. So you've got a couple other interesting passages real quickly. You remember in 1 Samuel 10, when Israel had gathered,

the elders had gathered to decide who was going to be the king, and they passed lots, and the lots fell on Saul, but he wasn't there, and they didn't know how to find him. And so they inquired of the Lord, and it was the Urim who told him, and here's one of those places where it's pretty explicit. He's hiding among the baggage. Yeah, it's not flipping a coin. Yeah, that's not to look like, boy,

they knew that what the next piece of information they needed, they couldn't get from a binary lot. And then the other one that's really fascinating to me is in 1st Samuel 22, and this is where David had fled to Nob for the showbread and the sword. And later on, Saul heard that he had done that, and the priest was a Himalek. And so Saul came and accused a Himalek of treachery.

because he had helped David. And Ahimelech says, did I just begin to inquire for him today? Now, my point is simply this, that Himalek seems quite clearly to be saying, and at this point, Saul is still king. But he's the titular king, but David has, in fact, received that theocratic anointing in 1st Samuel 16. And so David is functional king, if you don't mind. But, and he is, in fact, protecting the borders.

He's doing what the king's supposed to do. Saul's sitting under his pommick. Well, that was earlier, but he's trying to kill David. That's all he's trying to do. And, but the point is that as Saul's, you know, first lieutenant, if you don't mind, and then even, I think, as the functional king, David had evidently gone to a hymeloch quite often. And so my point is, I think inquiry of the Lord through the order and through me, was a lot more common than we give it credit for.

And I don't know if you could check where you laid the car keys, probably not. But, and one of the points that I make is that the Urimandthumi was clearly not for just personal use. But how many times, it was not for judicial use. As a matter of fact, the Uriam and Thumi was not to be consulted for anything which you could answer on your own in the law and the testimony. If the answer is there, go find it. And it's not to be judicial. Now, there was another means, and this is another. whole mysterious thing by which if you couldn't determine guilt or innocence you could consult with

Yahweh and that was Numbers Chapter 5 you know what I'm saying the where you'd have in the context as a woman has been accused of adultery and you'd have her drink. Yeah, like the yeah. Yeah, and then if her thigh swelled up, oh, there's so much to talk about there. And there's a formally that I can't remember. But that seems, I think the point is still there. I mean, I can make the point as haltingly as I'm doing it. that God expected you to exercise all due diligence and do everything you can

and utilize the law and the testimony and so on. But God gave that law. And if it was impossible to ascertain guilt or innocence, he would step in, but not through the Uriam and Thumi. It's never used ever for a judicial effort. It's always the human leader needs some direction with regard to the governance of the people. And it's a human initiative too, right? It doesn't, Yawah doesn't fire up the stones and say, come, come here, I got something to tell you.

I'm glad you brought you to that, Luke, that's so huge. Let me say, one of the things, that one of the big issues, one of the big subject, when you talk about the Orimithu, me, one of the issues you always run into what happened to it. Yeah. And I think you hit on it. I think that you have, you have it used again and again in the peer of the judges. David is using it before he becomes titular king, before he's actually crown king in second Samuel, and then he's using it a couple of times after he's.

It seems to disappear in connection with David's sin with Beth Sheba and against Sharia. And God had to intervene in the grand distinction between, because everybody will say, well, the Urim and Thumim seems to be displaced by the prophets, yes. But I don't think it was because, you know, the Uriam Thum, they run on a battery's or whatever. I think the point is that as long as you had people

who were willing and anxious to follow Yahweh's directions, and certainly David was until then. But David's not going to check with the Uriamathumi is if it's okay. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah. So if you're living in sin and wickedness, you're not going to go ask God for his thoughts on that. Yeah.

God needed to confront him. Yeah. So, and from that time forward, you have this dynamic throughout the scriptures, and this gets a lot more, I don't know, it's got a lot of ramifications. But every king, every king has a court prophet, and that court profit is more authoritative than he is.

So the court profit, I think, does functionally supplant or make up for the neglect of the Uri Mnthumi. And so the Urimanthumi really passes out of the picture early with David. As far as being able to find places, there are a couple of places, and one is in the days of Josiah, and if there was ever a king who might have been, had the unction to actually approach Yahweh on his own, you know, he'd be Josiah.

You could find it there. The verb is there, and I'm kind of suspicious that it was still there. I mean, all you had to do is untie those knots, and bingo, there it was, you know, and so throughout all their history, but it seems to be supplanted by the prophets. By the prophets, by reason of neglect. and not by reason of divine direct.

So you don't think that it also may be disappeared? You think it potentially, I would agree with you there because I think that makes the most sense. Do you think also, like from a tangible aspect, it disappeared with the destruction of Jerusalem and the invasion of the Babylonians? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's at the end of the theocracy, yeah, it becomes now.

It is interesting that they come back, course, under Gerobel, and the Talmud says that there were five things missing from the second temple. Yeah, I tell you, and they are, number one is the glory cloud. Number two is the Ark of the Covenant. One of the other ones, the Spirit. One of them is the Holy Spirit. But one of them is the voice.

And I think that may be a reference to the... Interesting. Yeah. You could craft them yourself. You just get whatever that jewel is. But as far as their capacity to use that, be used that. way it was going. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

This is, yeah. It's amazing. I love, I love that you spent your dissertation time on this because it's such a, it's such a cool and fasting, like really, in some ways, one of those things that's over, it feels like you just sort of like, okay, yeah, it's overlooked and, and or maybe even more so, it's just sort of, people just don't look into it. Like, just, this just seems like, you know, whatever they did, they did. Just the same way they built the tabernacle a certain way, and they spread the blood on the instruments of the temple. These things they did, but it's fascinating.

Well, thank you much. It was interesting. What do you care about? My own pilgrimage, I had written an extensive paper on the Orem and threw about 100 pages when I was in my T-HM work, and I had discovered that I was the only guy on the earth who understood it wasn't the binary latch.

I couldn't find anybody else. And so I started down a different road, something with the life of Christ, when I was doing my dissertation, spent over a year at it. And then my number one reader came to me and said, Buckman, you're never going to talk me into this. probably not right.

So, and you know, and I'm not fond of this, you guys, but one of the protocols, one of the basic protocols in doctoral work, you know, in terminal work is that you have to make a contribution. Now, what that means is you've got to come up with something that nobody for 2,000 years of Christian Air Edition never thought of before, and sometimes it turns out to be kind of bizarre stuff. It's pretty hard. You got to, you got to sweep the, you got to look at the bottom of the cover and see what's

been taken out of you. Right. Exactly. It could be, but I thought, wait a minute. I think I'm the only guy. who knows that. So I'll go back to the Urimanthumi, but I've done some work. And then like I say, this comes out, what do you care? But actually,

actually, this is Cornelius Van Dam on the Wrimandthumi, but this isn't the old Izby. Remember International Standard Bible in Sanctopedia? They redid it. Oh, yeah. And of course, I tried to read everything that was to read, but not that when the new one came out, I went and got it. And I looked at it on, oh, my goodness, he's right. He's the old guy. I thought I'm toast.

But it's good because he doesn't. is a more thorough work with the history and so on that I can. Well, Doug, that's, oh, thank you, man. Thank you for this. This is so interesting, so very interesting. I just, what I love about this in context of our show, Doug, and your addition into our sort of, you know, macro narrative on this is that ultimately we try to filter all the weird things and through the biblical narrative.

And the biblical narrative is very supernatural. And this is one of those things that exists in the Old Testament that we don't, no one really spends a lot of time on. As you said, you had to find something in 2000 years, people hadn't really spent a lot time on and this is it, but it just speaks to a very supernatural realities of our faith, right? And the way that, and also I think it's so interesting, it's just the, from a relational standpoint, that God is so interested and pragmatically focused on having authentic relationship with humanity. And this is one of the ways by which he designed it to happen, right? It wasn't

face to face Moses, but it is, it is this interaction. Like, if you want, you know, if you want to know what God thinks you can come and I'll tell you and it's not it's not a binary it's not a binary answer and it's funny too those that walked you know like David after he sends is like I don't want to know we're not going there you know I'm not going to ask for God's opinion I know what it is right it's uh listen let me just say preach it brother that God is so anxious to have not only a relation with humanity but with humans with individual human yeah one of the most blessed realities of a trinitarian God that is revealed to it, the God who is revealed to it. We all know this is that God exists in relationship from eternity. And he enjoys relationship. And that's,

we're in his image. I always say those are three real persons. They enjoy hanging around with each other. They're interacting and loving and planning and designing and delighting and pleasing and so on. Thus we are made in his image and he is hungry to have that relationship with us and so on. Love it. Yeah. And he's taken some pretty dramatic steps to make it work, you know. Well, I had one last question if, like, some people might think this is kind of what the Catholic Church does via the Pope. Is that a totally different conversation?

Well, again, that's why you have to have that supernatural element. Because otherwise, somebody, by whatever reason, whatever claim to special authority, you can just declare. And that's what the Magisterium is. It's the Magisterium of the Church, the leadership. the Catholic Church and nor the Pope on his own, he's always got counsel, just declaring as of now, this is true. It's ruled by edicts, yeah. I think that's always dangerous. It was dangerous in that day. It's dangerous to this. But if you've got a means by which, and of course, these were only, most of what we have in the scriptures was given to us through prophets and so on, and

God spoke to prophets, holy men of God were born along by the Spirit. But in these isolated, interesting, recoverable incidents you had actually got speaking to the leader and so on and giving this sort of, but always in a way that had to be non-counterfeitable. I got accused of making that word up, but I still like it. It means the same thing as true, right? Authentic and true. Yeah, exactly. Well, Doug, I know you're a teacher.

We allow folks to end the show if you want anyone to interact with any of your, find your work, or if you've got anything you'd like to promote that you're working on or doing, you absolutely have the right if you don't. It's still apply too. You ask about it. It'd be nice. Our seminary, we're a Bible-believing seminary. We're fully accredited, top-line, ATS.

We have full talent. All of our props have terminal degrees in the area in which they're teaching. That's amazing. That's a Christian world. And it's just as a startup seminary. Well, you know, starting 2003, and we got accredited in seven, and then by ETS and 16, and God's just doing good things. We've got one of the world's best programming you ever heard of for a one year. We call it a gap year.

It's a gap between college and career, and it's a gap in the sense we're trying to close the gap between what you believe and how you live. So it's a wonderful 42 unit fully accredited one calendar year, trip to Israel in Laramie, Wyoming, Wyoming. It's Shepherd's Seminary. It's a good solid. Not trying to be more than it ought to be. No, I'll give a solid plug, Doug. Appreciate it. Yeah.

Well, thanks so much, man. And thank you to Kia for, for, for now. You're a good, good, good little piece of spice in my daughter's life. I love that. Well, we're grateful. We're totally grateful. Yeah. Thanks, Doug.

Appreciate it. All right, gentlemen. Thanks so much. Nice to meet you as well. I think I can ever do. Let me know. All right. Thank you, sir.

Lordland. Yeah. See it.