Blurry Creatures - EP: 250 The Modern Exorcist with Ryan Bethea

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Ryan Bethea, the voice behind "The Exorcist Files" podcast, comes back on the podcast to go more in depth about the real world of exorcism. As a dedicated producer and storyteller, Ryan brings to life the most harrowing and fascinating exorcism cases ever recorded. Each episode, he recounts true stories he's uncovered, sharing spine-tingling details and insights into the battle between good and evil. Join Ryan on a journey through the darkness as he explores the origins of demonic forces, the rituals of exorcism, and the personal experiences of those who have faced the unthinkable. "The Exorcist Files" promises to leave you questioning the boundaries of reality and the nature of evil. You can get our book of Enoch here: https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com &Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 You can get our book of Enoch here: https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

He heard the recreation. He said, you know what? I'm willing to come on the show and tell you what it was like compared to which you portrayed it as. And he goes, he's like, the only thing I would say is it was 10 times even scarier. But he goes, I took out this cloth and he goes, demon, do you recognize this? And he said the thing just like looked up and was just like, put your toe like, no. Like you could see like, I don't know that. Right. And he's like, but there was fear in his eyes. And then he just puts it on the forehead.

And he said, just hell broke loose. And this thing starts. didn't say who it is just like, and it's crazy. And so when you, and they start going bonkers, right? Which again, Acts 19, the handkerchiefs and aprons drive out demons. And so you go, what's happening? Anchorchiefs and aprons drive out demons.

The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, and if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right. Because if one person's right and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning

associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, welcome back to blurry creatures. We talk about ancient history all the time. And we have, we also talk about the book of Enoch a lot and one of our main topics is the giants and the, the blurriness that goes on with there. And supposedly the demons that come from the giants, the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. And so might as well talk to Rhybethae from the Exorcist Files and come on and give us some behind the scenes of what it's like to produce a full, a podcast that sort of deals full time with talking about what it's like when these people get inhabited by these, these entities.

and we talk more about the origins of them, Ryan, and less about specific. Sometimes we talk about specific hauntings or encounters with these things, but I'm sure your show is just, it's almost like you can take a deep dive into one subject. And sometimes we're all over the place. We're talking about a thousand things. So it's good to talk to someone who's devoted their life to just, what's it like to hang out with an exorcist all the time? And what are the stories that are coming up around that? I'm sure there's some things that you don't release and there's things you do release. It be fun to just kind of have an episode where we talk to you about producing your show.

Congratulations on all the success of the show. And thanks for coming back on Blurry Creatures the second time and getting into the Exorcist Files. I was going to say, yeah, if you haven't heard our first episode with Ryan and Father Carlos Martens, and you're not familiar with it, Ryan, you host a podcast called The Exorcist Files, which was a huge success, season one. I think you're somewhere north of eight to nine million downloads on that season. Season two's coming up.

I know that's kind of what we want to talk about too because you are producing the second season. And Father Martins came on and talked about, told some stories, talked about what was happening. And he is maybe the leading, if not one of the leading exorcists for the Catholic Church. And he's, you know, you guys cover a myriad of stuff. And season two looks wild.

You've done some previews where we got on it and see what's coming, what's coming down the pike and it looks crazy. But as Nate said, welcome back to the show. We love for you to do some story time with Luke and Nate here and talk about some of the things maybe that you experience that happened during the show and maybe to you. And then also some stories that drops of stories on us. This story time sounds like what we want when it comes to pulling back. the curtain and seeing what's what's what's been happening behind the scenes with the exorcist files. All right. So you're calling it. This is the this is the hot American nephalum summer. Is this it? Yeah, wet hot. Yeah,

that's a nethom summer. Yeah, bad film me made. And yes, Father Martin's again, he would never say this and there is no head exorcist for the Vatican. He sometimes get called that, but obviously spiritual warfare quarterly, you know, voted him top exorcists regionally, you know. What do you, what do you win if you get that? Is, Like a, do you go, there's like an award show. Wouldn't it be awesome if there was, if that was a thing? Or like, you were voted 40 under 40 top exorcists for, I mean, there's only a hundred,

I think. So he probably, it wouldn't be maybe a difficult award to win. But it is cool. 40 under 40. He's the hot new exorcist. Like this guy's really coming up. I mean, Jesus is the OG exorcist, right? Like he's the Lombardi, you know, but it is fun.

No, he's, I mean, it's a trip. I do want to clarify one thing because I have not dedicated my life. It feels recently. like I've been dedicating my life because I write, when you are at home alone, writing scripts after this priest tells you this story, which after you pick your jaw up off the floor and you're like, wait, what happened? There was a faceless man in a cornfield and a board, a Ouija board that wouldn't burn away

except the word no. Okay, got it. Thanks. Riding that down. And then, you know, we dramatize it. So I try to make it, you know, we're trying this is edutainment, you know. And so then, you know, someone will come in and, you know, later you family comes home and they tap you on the shoulder.

And you're like, ah, you know, it's a, it's very, I learned I had to do my writing in the morning in a well-lit area because it does, it does drain. And I will say this, this sounds maybe a little out there, but I think we've all, anyone who's done creative work knows it can be a slog for whatever reason. We have riders block. We, you know, we run up against things. We maybe just be disinterested. I know disinterest is not the issue with these stories, but I can say, I've written, you know,

I run a creative agency by day, thank the Lord and get to do a lot of comedy commercials and we work a lot of brands, which is such a, needed counterpoint to what I do with the show. But this is the most difficult thing I've ever had to write. And I don't know. It's hard to describe other than when you make this, it's like running in sand versus just running on, you know, pavement. Like it's, you're still moving forward.

It's great. But it's like, I just look at my output. And so I do wonder if there's some world where there's just these spiritual forces exerting on us on a variety of activities. And it's just happening there. So I've not dedicated my life to it because I wouldn't. wouldn't call myself for that, but somehow a Protestant ended up with a leading exorcist on a podcast on a show about Bigfoot that started off there. And here we are. And you have our success too.

We plug the show and the blurry nation got behind us and we're so grateful. So thank you. Oh, man. That's, that's funny because this is like a side note. We don't have to go into this, but you were trying to get the guys that produced nefarious on the show. And we had a thousand things happen every single time we try to get them on the show still haven't got them on yet so yeah something happened and to cancel last minute it's like it's crazy with it's like medical emergencies all people get stuck in traveling is it's the most we probably yeah we've probably scheduled that show off your truck wheel fell off my truck not 10 minutes before we did the interview this yeah but it makes sense is what we're saying is that when you talk about these subjects they're not popular and it

seems as though sometimes there is maybe some resistance yeah not to use nefarious you know oh that movie had a create i mean if you go go online encourage all your listeners go online and listen to the interview with it's either oh no father martins actually gives a great interview about what happened he did an exorcism of the hotel room i mean he heard a woman's voice in background i wasn't there for any of that you know i prefer my movie premieres you know just grab a quick bite two hours in and out Apparently there was all sorts of things happened. I mean, literally they had, you know, footage go wrong. I mean, one of, so this is something that gets interesting, right? One of the prevailing beliefs, and we have some firsthand experience with this, right? And again,

I want to submit, I could be totally wrong. There's all, we could all be psych, I mean, if you expect bad things to happen anytime you talk about spiritual warfare, it wouldn't shock me if things happen, you know, like there's some, there's some self-fulfilling prophecy there. However, it is very interesting when you interview people, look at Scott Derrickson and read the interviews about making Emily Rose. Like weird stuff seems to happen. Look at them. Set the Exorcist, right? Stuff seems to happen.

But one of the prevailing beliefs, if you talk to a lot of people in our space, and it's a niche space, you know, you know a lot of folks, is that somehow, and I'm going to call, we'll call them demons, but sure, I'm open. Maybe I think they're demons. I think, I believe the Christian narrative, but say they're whatever, call them immaterial, interdimensional entities that we're unaware of, right? Whatever they are. Somehow they can exert influence on technology.

And that is just, I mean, from white noise to recordings going away. And every single person that I've worked with in this space has had something like that happened. And you might say, well, anyone who works with technology, you know, something will go wrong. But like one of the first things that happened when we started recording, we had a whole episode disappear. Like just gone off the file. Is that proof of supernatural? No. But like, isn't that interesting?

Like we backed it up doubling. It doesn't exist anymore. It was just gone. We did a whole recording with Father for like an hour. and it just disappeared. Maybe he didn't hit some it, but we're pretty meticulous that stuff. Nefarious, they had three people in like car accidents. They had, I mean, a whole litany. And I don't even like to get into too much because it's like, I don't want to build a narrative. Like one of the biggest questions we get on our show is if I listen to this and I learn about this enemy,

will I be a target? And we do not want to inspire fear in any way. Because the point of our show is to highlight and say, if the Christian narrative is true, then you don't have to be afraid of these things. If the, if the Christian narrative is true, then the J-man, you know, basically Jesus defeated all these things, and you an authority as a believer in Christ now can walk in authority and you don't have to fear these things. But you respect the threat. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying,

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Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Mintmobles for you, shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month $5.5 plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. yeah well we talk about that yeah no say real quickly quickly that's something we say as well right there's there's a lot of that in our space ryan where it's like you guys are obsessed or focused on the darkness and what i think is important as you kind of pointed out just to reiterate that is you know we go back to like ephesians 511 which is take no part in fruitful works of darkness but

instead expose them like there's something to be said for understanding that we're in a world at war and we're with you man like there's things can't at some point move beyond cohesion incidental. And in our space, the same things have happened. We've had a lot of similar things happen with some of our shows. And funny enough, like the whole technology thing seems to happen with Bigfoot. Our show starts out with Bigfoot. People talk about, you know, footage going missing, batteries dying, that were fully charged. A number of these things happened from a technology standpoint. And so I think this thing is this, I know this phenomenon is real. I know that the, you know, our view on the demonic is comes, it goes back to, you know, we have a number of episodes

is Dr. Michael Heiser. And from a biblical standpoint, the demons are disembodied spirits of the giants. They're the, they're the spirits of the Nephilim. That's a definition now. Now, of course, we contend there's a wide variety of creatures, if you will, in the supernatural, the spiritual realm. Yeah. I mean, from fallen angels to things we probably don't have names for or know about, but demons are part of that in our biblical understanding of this. And so, you know, in fact, they've been around for millennia and they mess with technology, it seems to me pretty standard.

And I think, too, like the idea that there's something to be said for, when we talk about spiritual warfare and, of course, not over spiritualizing things. People, like you said, people can have self-appelling prophecies. You can, if you have a negative outlook, you can sort of create negativity from for your life, right? So I agree with you. That's a reality. But there are a lot of things that happen that sort of are outliers to that, right? Especially if you're not living in that space. and, you know, we live in a world at war.

We talk about this ancient war that exists and continues to today, right? And as you said, like Christ defeated the darkness, really ultimately, ultimately absolutely did at the cross. But these entities and these agents, the darkness still exist and will exist and interact with humanity until, you know, until they're vanquished at the end. And we live in that space, right? That's where we're operating. We're in that space between. Oh, for sure. Well, also, I was not immune to spiritual warfare today, too.

I my deli sandwich they ran out of yars. Here we go. I was, I now have a sandwich delicious after this that does not have my Swiss cheese or anything. So that I knew I was being turned. The devil, Ryan. So this is interesting because, so actually in a great respect, I loved, I got to interview to Dr. Michael Heiser and I loved his stuff. You know, because interesting, so in the in the show, and I, you know, I, again, I'm Protestant, so I may not be exact 100% in my retelling of the official Catholic doctrine. But what the show espouses is that there are various ranks and choirs of angels that the demonic spirits that are battled in this room.

And what's interesting is some of these stories we'll get into today. They, I am confronted as the producer. So on the show, I play the skeptic and the journalists, right? Just to say, let's play. If a woman tosses a man across a room, you know, the Vatican calls that superhuman strength, right? That's actually a classic sign of genuine demonic possession, which is extraordinarily rare by their own admission, right? However, are there medical cases, are there medical frameworks and diagnoses that can account for humans exhibiting enormous bouts of strength under extreme duress? There is.

Insanity strength, right? However, those you typically find in life or death situations, not when someone's sitting there and Holy Water gets put on their head and they go. So I grew up in a tradition where we didn't really talk much about these things. I mean, the closest you got to spiritual warfare was like driving in the 405 at 5 p.m. And that was clearly something that would tax your soul. but not nothing like this and so obviously protestantism we don't have a framework for a purgatory we don't have a framework for i mean relics now that's another thing i've we should talk about is i've totally come around axe 19 paul's handkerchief people brought aprons just to touch paul and they'd bring it back to their

villages and put it on people who are sick or demonized and the demons would flee at the touch of these objects so i've gone okay so those are things that are used in catholic right of exorcism and What's interesting is, since you brought up the Nephilim and Disabody Spirits, what Father teaches on the show is that all these spirits are basically fallen angels that basically, in some way, which we know, a lot of this is conjecture. We don't know exactly what happened. Scripture alludes to this rebellion in heaven, you know, whatever happened. But these fallen angels, but that they were endowed with a particular purpose that they were supposed to have at first.

So whether it was, you know, heralding the birth of the Savior, stewardship. Interestingly, in exorcism, you exercise salt and water and oil together, or you do salt water first. And the reason you exercise salt is because salt is of the earth and the earth they teach is under the dominion of Satan still. While we are now repossessing it through Christ, but the earth had fallen and so you have to remove the impurities from it. One of the theories is, is that demons were actually angels who were used and were tasked with stewarding resources and stewarding water and their fall leads to now. natural disasters because they've abandoned their pose. And now in one of the ironies of God and

his like sort of righteous vengeance, that which they were called to steward is now used as a weapon against them to remind them. And so where's that? Where's that? Interesting. Where does that information found? So that's in the right of exism. It's blessing of salt. Okay. Um, it's called exercising salt. You can go on you two actually and listen to it. It's a really beautiful ritual. Is that's the book they use, right? If I'm to understand the book that the, right. The right. Okay. That's what. There's a Latin right and then there's a more modern right. And it's not just Catholics that will bless salt. Interestingly, there's a deliverance minister named John Thompson who's up in Toronto. I'm almost positive. This is from his book. We read one of the fun parts of prepping for the show is reading a

wide library of spiritual warfare. And one thing I really appreciate about Father Martin's is, I mean, he's Catholic, absolutely believes in the true and the primacy of the one true Catholic church, right? But he goes, look, Christ conferred the ability to vanquish demons to not Catholics, not just Catholics, not just those exorcists, but those baptized in the name of Christ, because we see it, it's not just the apostles. He sends out the seven to other people have the authority in Christ to trample on snakes and scorpions. And we see in Mark 16, of course, that, you know, that's something, hey, when you're not sure what to do, it's go out, heal the sick, raise the dead, you know, trample on snakes and scorpions. So, but I, John in his book mentions

that he was in a deliverance session and he felt the Holy Spirit. say you're going to bless this water and you're going to use it on the person. And he said, at that moment, the demoniac looked at him and said, don't you dare bless that water? And he's like, well, I'm definitely going to bless the water now. And yeah, and I hope it's, I know, I read, I hope it's John Thompson. If not, whoever wrote this, it's fascinating. And then he throws the water at the demoniac after blessing it, right? And they just go bonkers. And part of that comes from that you look in a lot of the stories where the Jesus encounters the demons and it's near bodies of water. And so there's something connected. Yeah, because I mean, well, there's the whole there's there's

we've talked about this in the show time. Brian, I think that's fascinating right there. The ancient Hebrew idea around water was is that it's this place of chaos. And actually that's what the demons were. And that's why in some way, in some way symbolically, Christ walking on water was so very significant in calming the storms because he was ceasing the chaos. And there's this. idea that the demons then return to their abode where they lived in the water. It's like Leviathan. It's this chaos

monster, but this is also the place in the abode of the demonic. It's very interesting. It's very, yeah. Can be more of, because I think some people think it's an actual dragon, but the more you think about it, it could be like just a spirit that is sort of encased in this.

It can only live in the water or something. You know, it's, I think one thing we've discovered right on our show is that there's a whole hierarchy of creatures and they seem to be growing. And there's not just a few things out there in terms of what we don't understand. It seems to be a kingdom of darkness,

which has just as many characters. Fylam, whatever you want to call it. Kingdom, phylum, family. Yeah. Kingdom of darkness, Philem, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, like, it's an animal kingdom, you know, of weird creatures and things.

And our show's kind of exploded. And when I was alluding to, the beginning is we have in each episode kind of goes down a different rabbit hole but it's kind of nice that you can just talk about these demonic possessions and try to understand what they are what you get some better answers for it because i think a lot of people a lot of spiritual people christians protestants are very skeptical to this stuff is real it happens there's a whole mental health stigma that comes with it and i think that you know we should get into that that's a big yeah you guys funny you guys are like the discontive the the i think

I feel like you guys are the document. You need Richard Attenborough to narrate. You guys are like planet fall on earth, right? And you could just have Richard Attenborough narrate about all the various kingdom weird stuff. Like that's actually not a bad documentary y'all should make that you do cover. I'm open to it. Let's talk about kick starters. Yeah.

No, I had a quick question though. Like before we get right into that, Ryan, like being a Protestant, right? And Nate and I are also Protestants, not Catholics. Welcome to Sephora. I'm looking for a perfume that's not too perfume. me? I got you. Serum moisturizer or moisturizer syrup. Let's get into

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What do you make of the idea that deliverance ministries on both in the Protestant world and in the Catholic world, you know, work, if you will. But their methodology seems very different. Like, it's interesting to me, and I know what I think about it. But I'm curious, like, you being in it, like, it seems to me, from the eyes looking, the Catholics are so regimentally in ritual, regimented and ritual about the process, the procedural nature of an exorcism. And that's kind of what I got from Father Martins, when we had the interview, there's this process that goes, and then you go, there's deliverance ministry. that exist in the Protestant world, right?

And, you know, this, that in between, people, people can have their own opinions about deliverance in general. That's sort of out the window, not either here nor there. We know it happens. We know that demons are exercised. They are cast out on both sides. What do you make of that? Because I feel like there's these two camps that say, we know the right way, maybe, you know,

or this is the way to do it. And they operate very much differently. And even the idea of their perceptions of the supernatural realm are vastly different. And my opinion is the name of Jesus works. That's it, baseline. That's my opinion. Luke Rogers thinks, like, listen, like, Christ said good to this in my name. You'll do greater things than me.

And I don't necessarily, but I know that there's two very different camps or or methodologies that exist. And you get to kind of, you've kind of split the difference being a non-Catholic with a very strict Catholic in the space. Well, the correct term for me is heretic. Well, there you go. I've, no, so I'd say, come so, bro, at a high level, one thing that I've deeply really grown in appreciation for, and again, and I'll get flack from, I'm actually probably going to get flack for us, you know, Protestant friends will make fun. I mean, be like, are you going over to the Catholic side and Catholics are like, come on, how do you get the privilege of working with us and not like, you know, with Father Martins and you haven't converted yet? One thing, guys, I encourage everyone is before you make blanket generalizations about either side is, one, there is tremendous overlap, right? If there's a huge difference between, mean, what is actually taught as Catholic doctrine and then what we might see people participate in.

I'll use Bethel as a great example too, right? Like, you could look at what Bill Johnson teaches. You could look at what you say here to sermon. And then the broader Bethel community makes up probably over a million people worldwide, right? And they're not a, you know, and if you meet someone who happens to be drawn to that and perhaps they're doing something that is really out there and non-sanctioned, you know, we have to ask ourselves, hey, what is doing what is formally taught, and what do we see practiced, right? To be fair to them, right? Because, for example, Catholics are very, it is very clear. You do not worship saints. You do not worship Mary. You worship is due alone is to Christ alone. However, there are levels of veneration, right? And you might say that's a bit of a cop out,

right? But it's like, no, but in general, you know, now you could argue the fruit of that and secondary nature, like, okay, let's get into that. But in general, I want to, I want to say that there's things that we might immediately go, ugh, that sounds like weird, like relics, like I mentioned. And I encourage everyone, like, just do your homework and look into what did the church look like early on? And then what is true that we started believing only during the Reformation? And it's just worth having a conversation. Speaking of exorcism, one thing I was shocked to learn is that you could not early church get in and become a, like the whole process to get baptized is a big deal. You had to have an exorcism. It was assumed that you, you were. It was assumed that you,

you pick stuff up just being, you know, not a Christian. And so the reality of spiritual warfare is very real. Today, if you were to become a confirmed Catholic, there is the oil of exorcism that is applied and a blanket sort of exorcism done on you. So as far as the different styles, one thing I've actually been really encouraged by, and I deeply appreciate, is something I really respect about Father Martins, is that there is a right of exorcism, which is what they call, that's a major exorcism. And to get one of those, that's a formal, like, right. that's being done that is extraordinarily rare. That one requires bishop approval, psychiatric evaluation. That would be what we see in the movies like the crazy cases.

Below that, and that is to be done by an extra at a priest of the Catholic Church, right? However, below that is what they call minor exorcism and what the rest of us might call deliverance ministry. And so that is actually tremendous overlap with Protestant teaching. So our show, the teachings being espoused are one, it's very rare to be genuinely demonized, right? It's more likely you have another problem going on than demonic. Mental health is more likely culprit. Secondly.

Right, right, right, right, right. More quick. So we say demonized. We're talking about possessed. No, meaning, so meaning like if you get in your car and it doesn't start, right? It's more likely we don't look to immediate spirit like spiritual causes. It could be. Cast the demon out of the out of the, out of the, out of the, F-150, yeah.

Yeah. Charles Kraft, professor of Fuller Seminary is a great book called defeating Dark Angels. And his thing is treat everything like it's spiritual. because he's like, even though most time it's not, he's like, worse, if you're wrong, nothing happens. If you're right, you just, you know, you exercise your authority. So, you know, I am in the CS Lewis camp of there's probably a lot more things going on that are more spiritual than we realize. I think in the modern West. And this one I tell people too are skeptical, you know, because I come into this very skeptical. But if there was this immaterial

adversarial, whatever it is, right? How do you know it'd play by your rules of observation? How do you know it would like what allow you to like, you know, be to discover it? And if they are, we talked about hosts earlier, if these things are inhabiting human hosts, they have every vested interest in remaining completely hidden and not, you know, think about if you saw someone like do this stuff, a lot of the people who are delivered in our show end up becoming very strong advocates against the kingdom of darkness. And so that's why it's such an interesting, you know, ministry. But just demonization.

Yeah. So full possession, et cetera. That is extraordinarily rare. And you will hear that from Father Martins himself. Like this is, we are documenting. documenting extreme cases to teach principles. However, demons do not just get in 99% of the time, right? There's God's sovereignty, which we see in scripture, right? There's a guy who was born blind, right? And Jesus said, this guy was born blind so that the works of God may be manifest.

There are some things that fall under God's sovereignty that we don't have a like calculation for, we want to say that's how you got demonized. You played with the Ouija board. You went to the medium, you know, but some, there are cases where it just, you don't know. We, we, and it's so God could work his magic, right, his glory. The framework here is that in 99% of the cases, demons have to gain rights. So an exorcism is a removal of rights. Father always says it is the job of the exorcist is not to cast out the devil. The job of the exorcist is to find out why the devil is there and then revoke his rights.

And devil meaning just demons. So demons need permission to afflict you. And in scripture, I think we see this alluded to. Job is the big one. And then Peter, you see when Jesus turns to Peter and says, Satan has asked to sift you. There seems to be God's sovereignty over this divine counsel, everything, right? And the enemy seems to not be able to move, even when he has rights, he still has to get permission. And so when we sin, when we step outside, it seems that, and this is what the show teaches,

is that through those sins, that is how demons gain access. And then the creepy part, not to get too scary, but like is that just because they have a right, doesn't mean they will exercise it immediately. They might return to it. So Father might say, hey, I have a timeshare in Florida, right? I own it. I've gained rights to it. You don't know when I'm going to pop in, right?

And so that is why he would say it is important to, you know, if you got wounds and trauma, get therapy, right? Got unforgiveness. One thing I've really been moved by in the show is he said the biggest doorways are unforgiveness, sexual sin and obviously direct dealings with the occult, etc. But I thought the unforgiveness thing was really interesting. He's a huge fan of, if you got traumas, wounds, et cetera, he's like, enemies, the enemy is just attracted to these things.

And that's why walking with God, avoiding all the pitfalls that scripture admonishes to, is just a surefire way to keep free of that stuff. And so when you remove those rights, and that's why you'll find in our show, and this goes back to your original question of the different, you know, when I go to or I know Protestant deliverance ministers, it's the exact same thing. They may not say rights. They might say permissions, strongholds, and it comes down to the same thing. Having someone say, hey, are you involved? Have you committed a sin that you've not asked God to forgive you? If the person is not willing to cooperate, he'll say this too. You can't have God's

protection, mercy, all the, you can't join the kingdom of heaven without actually signing up for the kingdom of heaven. And we see obviously stark warnings against that in scripture of trying to just buy, you know, God's power, et cetera. So he'll say too, look, I can only do this. so much. And then the last part, I'd ask you like, how does healing work, right? What's the way to do healing? It's like, well, one, it's sovereign. If God doesn't want to heal someone in that moment, there's nothing we can do. So same with exorcism. There's no formula. Every exorcist brings their own flare and style, but there is in the rights, they are essentially saying, look, we're going to call down the force of heaven against you. You're going to tell us your name. You're going to tell us

what purpose this demon had in, you know, pre-incarnation. And then do you have it? And then the weird one, we can get into is they ask the demons what's your nemesis in heaven um so apparently on this council that dr heiser talks about we got some rivalries going on and they want to know uh who's going on there so that's a lot that's wild they do love that though because we've talked about this in the show like the legality of the supernatural spiritual realm if you will right and your examples right we're perfect it's it's job is the real real one of satan arrives and has to have permissions there's this there's this permission there's allowance that that happens and in that case god allows that to happen and right but but all the things that they can do that he they can do wrong to job really makes you

kind of scratch your head i was thinking about this the other night that you can do everything but just don't kill him which means you can affect every aspect of his life down to his finances you can even give him diseases but just don't kill his family and they kill his family yeah i mean it's just it really gives you a window into how much they can do what they can do it and affect it's like yeah maybe they can make your car not work right but it's just you just is interesting. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet.

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and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton. this day. It is too. I like the authorities is really fascinating too, right? The idea that, that along with permissive permission and permissible actions is that is the legal authority then. You take the authority by the, by the right of the king in these cases with Christ and you take authority and revoke permissions. Essentially, I don't know how to put it, but that, that,

it's an interesting. I find that stuff is super fascinating that the legal, because you talk about the divine counsel, right? And we talk about a little. We talk about a little. lot and you talk about the number of court scenes that we are invited into in in the old testament especially and you realize that like god is a god of laws and we see this through the beginning right here's they just don't do don't eat from that tree and then when it's you know when it's when it's when it's exodus it's it's it's here's the law here's what you can and can't do yeah and those things are meant to protect us ultimately we don't they're not they're not constrictions it's not to enslave us it's meant to protect us and in the same way

the the kingdom realm the heavenly realms this spiritual room, whatever you want to call it, operates very much legal, legally. You don't think about that with sinning either. Like when you grow up in the church, you don't really apply, you know, your parents tell you not to do bad things and you don't really think that you're giving entities access to your mind, to your life, to come in. I think that's a, I mean, it's hard for people to wrap their minds around that, but that's more, that's a better way to explain, like, why you shouldn't do something. And it's, and it makes you kind of explore, exactly what sin is. And then you can kind of get into a whole theological conversation of what

what are we doing when we're doing sexual sins or what are we doing when we're not forgiving somebody. Really? That's wow. The forgiveness thing is pretty crazy, Ryan. And that's hard to, it's hard to forgive people. It is. Oh yeah, and that's why he wants you to take care of it. And I so appreciate that because you think about like all of us have someone who's wronged us or have an injustice done to us. I was with a friend last night and he was telling me a story that happened to him 20 years ago. And I had never heard this story. And he started tearing up during it.

And you could see the anger. He was, you know, he was wrongfully punished for something he didn't, he didn't do. And then he got exonerated, but this time was like lost from him. And he still started tearing up. And I got, man, like, that's, it's been 15, 20 years almost. And it's still, and you're like, I mean, wow, like, we all have those stuff. And so we've all tried people in the courts of our, I mean, think about what we do on a daily basis, right? And I love Paul's admonition and take every thought captive.

But like, you know, think about that person that just drives you nuts or someone. And like when you just, you start doing that mental, like put them on trial and you like, you know, say all the things you tell off and say to them, you know, and it's like, just because you're disciplined not to say it doesn't mean that thought work. And then somehow these, and this is where it's a whole other rabble hole to go down. But we know that the Holy Spirit and God can like impart thoughts to us. Like we can have divine inspiration. there seems to be in my research like just it's blurry about how do demons incite that stuff right on one school i've heard is that they know how to engineer circumstances because they're they're they're they're eternally brilliant slash stupid right they committed the dumbest act ever by turning against god but somehow but also they know their

scripture better than you do right and they can have been around forever so they've read a lot watching you since you've been born on the other hand they can't you know we said us on a show too they can't read your mind, but they can, but they're liars. And so one of the things that as a pure character study, which I find very fascinating in writing these stories is that, you know, Father will say, it's not the head spinning, the levitating, you know, that's stuff like, that's the movies, you know, no one's head spins, you know, people don't die. And to your point, because frankly, if the person die, that ends the whole debate. It seems like all this, like the Job matchup was like a bet. And if you killed Job, well, that doesn't really help us solve the bet, right?

But, you know, what gets interesting is the psychological warfare. I'll give, so here's a whole story, right, I'll give you. We have a little story. We have. a case coming up and without giving too much away one of the the demon when it's um you know he's attacking actually one of the people so in an exorcism there'll be about eight or nine people in the room which is very interesting right so one never going alone that's also protestant you wouldn't go in by you might pray for someone at church off to the side but if you suspected full-blown deliverance ministry time i'm assuming either one of you would just go by yourself uh into a dark room. You'd be like, let's, let's pray.

You know, let's, let's bring in some, you know, there's more people to pray, right? Well, it's like, it was like, it was like, Jesus says with two or three, you're like, well, I want, I want, I want the king here as well. So let's let's get a few, let's get a crew, right? I mean. Well, Father said it's like going to war. He's like, I want as many good soldiers that you can spare. Like, give me, you know, there's no minimum amount to get the job done other than me and I need, I can't go alone. But like, beyond that, let's get the soldiers in. And so, uh, your listeners might find this interesting, right? So you've got the priest who leads the right. So in a. And we're talking a major exorcism.

This is months of study, the bishop of the diocese has said, you know what? This is the best treatments. Like, we've tried everything. This is clearly a spiritual. We think this is a spiritual problem, right? And I think people should know, like, it is hard to get an exorcism. This is, they don't, they treat this so seriously. And there's mental valuation.

I think you guys, we've talked about Dr. Richard Gallagher. Has he been on the show? No, no, but we, okay. We'll set that up, man. Yeah. I love that. Our last episode, our episode, we did. actually went through because I wanted you to spell out. So if you haven't listened to our previous

episode with Ryan and the exorcist, Father Carlos Martins, they walk through the process by which you are sort of qualified, if you will, or permitted to have a, and it's very rigorous because essentially they want to separate, you know, something scientific, whether it's mental illness. And so I think that gets blurry there as well in a lot of ways. But the idea to make sure this isn't something that's treatable conventionally, this is actually a supernatural problem. And as you're saying, just to reiterate that sort of quickly, there's an evaluation process by which these things happen that isn't just like, not Oprah.

It's not Oprah saying, you get an exorcism and you get an exorcism and you get an exorcism and everybody gets an exorcism, right? It's not that. It's very much a calculated process. Yeah. Anyone can get deliverance prayer when they should. They'll say, like, Father, when we were in Tennessee last year, I don't know if you all remember this, but Father left the conference.

You know, he spoke at Think Conference. And there was a friend of a friend who needed deliverance. And he's like, hey, I'm just going to go pray for this person and brought a friend. And he drove an hour outside. I mean, that's how serious this guy takes his job. He went and prayed for someone who just needed some delivery. Now, he's not doing the formal right, et cetera, at that point. And most people don't need the formal right in their opinion.

And it's, and I would argue the formal right is like surgery. It's like your doctor is going to say, how can we treat this, you know, over the counter first? Can we treat this with the doctor's visit? Can we do this with a local, like, oh, and all right, we're going to save the big guns. And in that case, you know, they've, they suspect, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be a big deal. And so that's where this, and so Dr. Richard Gallagher is a very prominent psychiatrist, board certified, Yale, Columbia. I mean, this guy's smart. And he's like, look, you know, I'm a mental health professional, right? It is a complete joke for people to say that, you know, we can't tell the difference between, you know,

mental health and issues and demonization. He's like, how many mentally ill patients wake up speaking fluent Latin? Right. He's like, it just, and so that was really interesting. And actually, what I found interesting is we did some research on this, all the way back to like the 1500s, the church had comments about, hey, this is what we today would call Tourette's and this is what would probably be demonization. They recognized early on like, hey, that person just talking to themselves out loud, that,

you know that's that may not be this right so so yeah like mortimer can't stop flipping off all of his friends and everybody all all the strangers in church as well but it's just a uh it's threat syndrome it's not he's not he's not possessed oh yeah or seizure you know people say this about the gospels like we're just we're these just people having seizures and jesus guilt it's like i mean you really like i mean listen to what they say what they do there were witnesses um and there's a and there's a whole history of this stuff too i mean you have a long list from the catholic saints orthodox I mean, people have just reported encounters with these things. There's too many.

And the Dr. Gallagher makes this point. Every culture on earth has a framework for how to deal with evil spirits. You know, how do we do? And one of the reasons Christianity spread so well was its efficacy in dealing with these spirits. You know, before that, it seemed interesting. I've read some, you know, there were Jewish exorcists, but it seems blurry to me about, like, you know, whether that was widespread belief about these. You know, it is an interesting change from Old Testament to, you know, New Testament. recognize that this was this was a thing so it's but to your point it is very difficult to uh to get one

of these things and then there's a whole like team of people brought in like you got a literally it's like predator you got the whole a team being assembled and everyone's got there's titles and roles and everyone has a job in the room um so it's great amazon presents jeff versus taco truck salsa whether it's verde roha or the orange one for jeff trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flame thrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like Habinier, yes.

Save the everyday with Amazon. I guess with that, then, you know, where were you when you started this show and where are you now? Like, what are the sort of the, because I know where we are, you know, after four years of interviewing people and hearing all kinds of stuff, what are some more, like, challenging things or some changes in belief or new ideas or just the growth of what you see this as now versus what you thought it was before you got into it. Yeah. So I mean, the world is, just to keep plugging you guys, I think the world's a lot blurrier than people realize. That's

going to be frustrating for some, but like my theology, so one, on the first principles, I'm more confident than ever. Like we talked about Jesus's ability to, you know, know, and his authority to eradicate whatever we want to think these things are. I'm open to debate. I could be wrong. People ask, are you living in a simulation? Like, how would I know the different? You know, I don't know. I'm, but I'm confident enough in what I've seen now. Early on, I had a few friends that were of sound mind and not on any pharmaceutical intervention that I could be aware of that told me, I remember in college, I had three friends who told me the exact same experience, independent of each other, about a dark shadow hovering over their bed

one night after they did something occultish. And then it tried to jump on them and say, submit to me. Now, when you hear that from three different people, like, and again, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, man, I was, you know, I was 14 and whatever. We, you know, we had brought out this Ouija board and like, oh, I was weird, right? You go, okay. Also, when people write into the show, you know, now I do get some very interesting letters. My cats possessed. I had a Satanist right in and say, thank you for honoring us and showing, you know, telling us the people that were real. And I was like, you're welcome. Wasn't very flattering.

Wow. Some crazy stuff. One woman rode in and said, I think my husband's possessed. He won't do the dishes when I ask him to. I was waiting for the LOL, but it was a serious. So I would say I've, I've always been open to the supernatural. When I was a, you know, you know, and getting early on in my career, I just, I, I knew too many people and they're like, dude, this happened.

And then I have seen in a. context I can't go too much into it to protect their privacy but I have seen someone like a pastor go like if there's in the name of Jesus if there's something there you need to show yourself there was a suspected case and this pastor snapped his finger I'd never and then this individual just you know bro like on the ground just like you know tossing and turning and you might say placebo I was sure like totally possible who knows but I have seen I have seen that and then I saw Jesus take it out and that was wild and I was like one eye open one hand on going like what is happening you know and like they're like anoint him with oil and I'm like wait like coconut extrovert extra virgin probably

what do we do there so that's that and then as I mentioned earlier I've grown a real deep heart for reconciling as much as possible Catholics and Protestants together because there's a shared savior shared enemy and there's some things that we might go oh my gosh that's just crazy and you look back and you're like the early church really believed that's a newer thing that happened you're like oh that's that's interesting and like father's very holy spirit led in these sessions like a lot of exorcism is him going holy spirit what do you want to do like is what should we do right now i mean i was so moved by in his ministry half the time is him fasting and praying to see if god is going to give a word that's going to because his job's a detective right i'm like trying to you don't just shout

prayers at this thing right you got to figure out and sometimes now in the cases he gets called in they're the most extreme, right? But like, what do you do when there's a mute spirit? Those are clearly mentioned in scripture and they're scary because he's like, tell me your name and it's just like, you know, right? And he's like, Holy Spirit, I don't know what to do here. I am helpless and I need your helper right now. And so that stuff, you know, I'm going, you know what? We're a lot closer than we think. We clearly have some big divides. I don't want to, you know, sugarcoat it. There are some very clear divides there. But I just encourage everyone like, go back, look at how the Bible was assembled, look at church history. You'll see, man, X, X, it was a big deal. Like, that was a thing.

And I'm a lot more, I guess, orthodox in my views now, having come into this. And like you all said, I keep a very open mind. When you meet credible, smart people, tons of them. We just had Dr. Brown on. I don't know if you guys have met Dr. Josh Brown, who did deliverance ministry with Randy Clark. And he'll tell you these stories. And this guy is a PhD in neuroscience, right? And he was delivered himself of a brain tumor. It was healed instantly of his deliverance. And I should say, and then the brain tumor over a couple months, he was given a diagnosis of an inoperable brain tumor.

And then it just disappeared. And you go, okay, I know something is happening, like Morpheus. Like there is a splinter in my mind. And I know that everything I see in front of me is not all there is. And I don't believe that everyone is wrong who is saying all this stuff, et cetera. And on the other hand, I do think it's entirely plausible. that there is one giant agenda. If there is an adversary,

I think this could be a brilliant hand to keep it blurry, to play it all, right? Because then you keep it all like, well, who knows what it is, right? And again, I'm open, I could be wrong. I totally wrong this stuff, but it is interesting. When you see these things come out in the name of only Jesus and then it disappears and they're totally healed

and their family lines healed, we didn't get into generational sin. Like that, you start going, what is, you know, what is happening? So yeah, I'm a lot, I'm just, more messed up and I'm blurrier than I was before. So I'm drinking my McBlurry right now. I love it. Dude, it's, it's, as well, like it. It's fascinating to hear because you get, you know, in some ways, you kind of do what we do, not, not, not practically, but in the idea that Nate and I always say we're along for the ride on this. Like we, you know, we get to, we get to talk to the academics and the experts and, and we get to to learn it and experience and, and learn from

what they, what they've learned, right? And so in the same way, you kind of, you get to do the same thing. And our, our, my views, I know Nate's as well have changed over the last four years and what we, in a sense of, or grown, if you will, like in, in what I, you know, what I believe and, and the theology, et cetera. And I, and I, I, I think that journey is so fascinating because, you know, as a non-passive participant, you really are actively participating at the same time, you're really passively experiencing these, these things. And it has to change you, right? You're seeing God work, do the things that. he does, whether it be healing or exorcism, which really essentially have the same things in some ways, but differently, different operations. I want to hear stories, though, man. I know, we need to get to stories. I got you too much with theology. Yeah. What's rattled your mind? What's rattled your brain? Well, remember two, the demon Kaiser Sosei, what did he say? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he didn't exist, right? That's right. So true. And if you ever do me, the demon named Kaiser Sosei, run away. Do not, do not engage. So, so. So,

So one of the stories, and I don't want to spoil anything, but all right, so let me go, let me go. So season one, one of the things that totally blew my mind was this Ouija board episode, where one, the history and founding of the Ouija board. I don't know if y'all have done an episode or looked into this. It is just crazy. Now, again, I, the, what happened? But I don't want to spoil this, but if everyone who listens to this should go look up, what happened to everyone involved in like the OG crew of propagating?

the Ouija board and you're going to be like, it's, oh, it's the movie Final Destination. It's, yeah, and like, again, some of this is apocryphal. We don't know for sure, but like there's even a story and I think this is not 100% proven, but if it's, if it's at all true, this is crazy. But the way they were given a trademark for the board was that the spiritist involved with the board said that if the board tells me your middle name or your real name and no one knew that this agent's in real name, then you'll give it to us. And so they did the board.

the board gave the name and the guys like, okay, that's correct and gave it the, you know, and gave it. So and then I believe that same spiritist, one of her last phrase when she dies is, it lies, it lies. And so it's just great. So obviously, I encourage everyone if for, and those haven't started our show. I would start with spiritual roulette part one, which I think episode seven. It's a crazy story about these six guys who get together and they play a Ouija board just because, you know, why not? Another Friday night. And they make, contact with an entity which identifies itself as a seven-year-old boy named Stevie. But Stevie knows a lot of stuff that a seven-year-old wouldn't know. Stevie is like Google. They start

asking the questions. Then they start doing what you're never supposed to do, which is like, well, if you're real, do this, do this, do this. So they start really egging it on. And of course, it answers, right? And his father says, you know, when you dabble in the occult or this stuff, He's like, what you're doing is, you're drunk dialing, just cold calling numbers, right? And most of the time, you probably get a dead signal. Nothing happens. You know, whatever. He's like, but you make contact with it.

Suddenly you got a relationship with something. And just because you want to hang up, it doesn't hang up the call anymore. It traces your line now. And so these guys start having this trouble with this Ouija board. And this thing starts getting real aggressive. And so they flee. And then I won't spoil it. But essentially, there's a climax at the end of this thing where the Ouji Board, they leave.

they leave and they say, I'm done with this. And their lives start falling apart from all this stuff that starts happening. And it's a pretty awesome ending what they have to do to get rid of this thing. And so I heard that. I was like, this is nuts, right? People rode in. And the amount of people said, I've had similar experiences with Ouija boards. And when they sell this at Toys R Us or RIP, if that's still around, or Target.

And I'm like, this is crazy. So that's interesting. The other thing that's been rattling in my head, Father has three questions that he always asked it even. This is not Catholic doctrine. This is just his best practice, right? So, for example, you are not required to fast and pray. He's like, I only go in fast and prayed.

If there's certain kind that can only come out through prayer and fasting as that scripture says, he goes, I want to be fast and pray just in case. I'm like, that makes sense. What's your name, right? So you can have name, identify it. The name also these demons have is a connection usually to its doorway, right? it's the sin and oftentimes they'll identify themselves by a sin you know they're royally stupid in that sense right um so they'll do that they'll also he'll say what was your purpose right what purpose did

god create you and these things will sometimes say i was made to like you know show like to herald the birth of christ and so he'll turn around and he'll say oh my like you know he's like all right intercessors let's start singing a christmas carol right now right and they'll start singing and this thing will just like go stop it, stop it and, you know, makes it irrational and crazy. And then that weakens it and he issues more commands to it. And then the third thing is to say, who's your nemesis in heaven? Which is a Protestant, I have no framework for. But in one of our stories, this, this demoniac says like over time, he wears it down and finally. And so him issuing commands is like a KGB. It's not, he says a command and it always responds. Yes.

It like breaks down its will. So he's like, tell me your name. Like, no, tell me your name. F you. tell me your name. And so something is happening in the spiritual realm where he is exercising this authority and over time it is wearing him down, which brings up the question, how come Jesus when he just says do it, they do it. You know, it's hard to know. We don't know when he was doing exorcism if he was operating with full God mode or if he was man doing exorcism mode. So the demons will resist and then they'll say, my nemesis is Thomas. And I'll say, which Thomas, right? Because there's a couple of Thomas, like, St. Thomas, and he's like, no, who? He's like, Thomas Aquinas. It's like, no. And he's like, Thomas Beckett. He's like, oh, fascinating story. Beckett, this priest who was murdered by his king and his, like, and a really terrible treason. Father happened to have a relic of a cloth that was still stained in Beckett's blood. He's from a medieval times. So the priest doing this exorcism told father this, because they compare notes. They talk afterwards, like, what happened a day? You know, like your therapist i think we're out of time today but we made good progress you know and uh he says the

nemesis was becket and he's like i have a piece of his cloth i'm gonna fad x it to you also wonder like the fed x guy when you walked in like would he if he only knew right so he ships this thing and then so the next session is priest who actually came on our show after he heard the recreation he said you know what i'm willing to come on the show and tell you what it was like compared to which you portrayed it as and he goes he's like the only thing i would i would uh is i would say is it was 10 times even scarier um but he goes i took out this cloth and he goes demon do you recognize this and he said the thing just like looked up and was just like put your toe like no like you could see like i don't know that right and he's like but there was fear in his eyes and then he just puts it

on the forehead and he said just hell broke loose and this thing start he didn't say who it is just like and it's crazy and so when you and they start going bonkers right which again, Acts 19, the handkerchiefs and aprons drive out demons. And so you go, what's happening, right? And so the working theory is that this object still has some connection of ownership, right? You own an object. There's some immaterial connection between it. And so it's linked to this now saint, you know, someone just in heaven right now, right? And because the demon is occupying a physical host, right it is now subject to the physical pains etc and so when this object basically helps usher in heaven on earth and now the demon is exposed because this physical object which he normally

couldn't touch because he's an immaterial being but since he took up residence in a physical being they put that object on and it's just he's like it is the things begging for mercy and you know they'll stop and be like come on priest like just leave me alone i'll be good i'll go away right They'll try and bargain, like last minute. That's also weird too. It's like, you're like, really? You think I'm going to like, oh, okay, well, you be good. I'll be good.

We'll just part his friends. Like he's like, it's just gnarly. So those two stories just like, yeah, I still wake up and go, that is just bonkers. Because as the Protestant, I have no framework for nemesis in heaven. But I only hope one day that I live a life where demons or disembodied spirits could refer to me as their nemesis. Yeah. Do you have a nemesis? Do you guys have a nemesis?

No, yeah, you know, I don't know. It's like when, it's like 80s wrestling, right? It's like Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan, you know. That's, or Randy Savage when they were the mega powers and Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and they split up and then they were nemesis. That's the level I hope I'm on with the mega powers. Well, let's all agree. If in 30 years we don't have a nemesis, we can all be each other's nemesi, you know?

Or we could just partner and we could, they could be like there's these three guys. Oh, collective. Like, who are there? It's like Captain Planet. their powers combined. Oh, man. I'm gonna end up with... For meditable men of themists.

I hope I get the cool power, though. There's that one guy who just had heart, you know? Yeah, and I're like, dude, weird, man. Wind, water. They ran out of elements. Yeah, they're like, this guy's just heart. He was like, gosh, you give me the worst one. What you're talking about too, Ryan, reminds me of like,

there is a lot of paranormal stuff that's associated with like some of the creatures like Mothman, for example, like... Oh, yeah. When people see these creatures, then this, like, terrible stuff starts to happen. And you're talking about these people that start this Ouija board and then their lives sort of fall apart. And there's, there, there seems to be like a connection of events oftentimes with sort of the strange and the paranormal that isn't just like, well, this one instance happens. It's a string of events. Someone let this thing in the door and then it goes through the

house and it creates a bunch of problems for people. But I don't know why Westerners, we, we tend to just write that all that off is crazy like but you know many people around the world will say that this this almost like a curse happened and then you read about curses in the bible and then you're like like you said these handkerchiefs and i think there's so much humility that is required when you do a show like this or you talk about these things because you can have it all figured out in your head and then you hear someone tell you a story you don't think they're lying and you go well that changes things for me that changes things like i know what i've been raised to think and I think I have it all figured out and so many people get mad at us all the time because

we just bring somebody on and listen to their story and we don't we don't know like are they telling the truth are they not and there's just so much humility involved in being able to listen to someone's story and go wow maybe that happened and I know that maybe that counteracts some of the things I was taught to very rigid thinking on what happens and what's okay but if Paul's handkerchiefs are casting out demons, that's hard for the lot of Protestants. They don't want to hear that stuff. I don't know. I have no idea. I feel like we should read that verse. Just so, all right, this is Acts 19, 12 through 15, the NIV. So that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him, Paul, were taken to the sick and their illnesses were cured and evil spirits left them.

It's a wild, bro. It is wild. Holy goes better, though. Some Jews who went out driving out, evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon possessed. They would say, in the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out, seven sons of, I think it's seva, it might be skeeva. A Jewish priest were doing this. One day, the evil spirit answered them, Jesus, I know, and Paul I've heard about, but who are you? And then it routed them. And you go, that's weird too. demons can tell if you're currently a representative of Jesus, right? They know if you're somehow, like, I don't know how that, this is something I was thinking

about. How do they know? So we have stories coming out where they know if you're in sin or not. Now, one, they saw it happen. Now, what demons may try and do is they may try and we have a case where a demon is calling out a sin in someone. And he says, like, all these things which make you think he's been spying on him in a way that's like, or the guy that he's reading is the guy's mind.

But the reality is we have to know is like, well, no, if these things can exhibit different things, you know, they watched you do it. On the other hand, though, in that case, that was the demon saying, you're not an actual, you're not an authoritative representative of Christ and he knows it. And I'm like, how do they know that? I mean, maybe just they maybe they watched it and they just knew who this person was. But can they actually tell if you're like grafted into the vine? That's true. That's wild. That's really, really wild.

that is why. So new seasons coming out. First season's out. First season's been spun nine million times or so. Give us some previews of what some of the things that are coming down are going to be launching this. I know you had a real successful Kickstarter. We talked about this pre-roll before we got on the recording here, but there is a season two coming out. And there's some wild stuff in there because you can look at the preview on the actual Kickstarter on your website.

But what are some of the crazy things that are coming in the next season of the X-Siles? and when's that coming out? Yeah, so most likely we're going to drop the first week in July unless something, I mean, what could happen, you know, what could go wrong? Based on our conversation, a lot, apparently. Yeah, I know, right? So, yeah, it's cool. It was a whole miracle of how this whole thing came together.

There was a lot of work, but, you know, I'm so grateful where we're at. So, yeah, we've got about, I think there's going to be 12 new episodes. We're going to do one a week again. we do love the Game of Thrones model and the old ageful. I love the water cooler talk. But so this season, our season opener is pretty dark. I was, I was torn because I again, you want to highlight. Our goal is not to scare people, right? But we do use it is there are people, one thing is people who won't listen to this sometimes. There are people who won't listen to a sermon, but they would listen to this. And so, and while our goal is not just to proselytize, right?

It's also, I mean, I love old time radio. I grew up on like shows where you'd shake the tinfoil or whatever or the paper is for sounds of thunder and i loved all that stuff so this is this is kind of cool to see it all come full circle but there are we deal with a lot of generational curses in season two uh we heard tammy comers testimony from season one there are a couple cases like that that i know are going to ruffle feathers where a spirit-filled baptized christian with no overt sin and you know nay you brought up a great point which is that people look and they say oh man look at this person like that's so unfair they did like we don't know all the information right we had an orthodox exorcist come on our show which you guys should have on as well father nectarios and he says when

people ask like you know what about that person he goes do you know that person like you think you do you know everything they've done up until now do you know every action because if this framework is true like you don't know right and there's some crazy stories about that so anyways there are some generational things where their ancestors made some pretty over overt occult decisions. And those decisions all of a sudden are just called in, are those like frameworks. We deal heavily with Freemasonry.

I don't know if you guys have touched on that. That was wild to go through the oaths and everything. And like there's a whole episode. And we bring on other exorcists to talk about that. And again, that's to your point, Nate, where you can say, this sounds crazy. Like, you tell me digestive issues are caused by Freemasonry in my family history, you know?

Well, one, you read the oath that we found in our research, et cetera, and it's like basically self-cursing if you ever leave. But secondly, when you have two priests like next to each other, look you in the eye, you know, and say, yeah, I've seen whole family lines healed when a curse is broken over that. And you're like, okay, people are going to get mad. They're going to say, that's crazy. And I'm like, well, can't you at least rejoice that they're feeling better, whatever heal them then? We're going to deal with Freemasonry, which is a very hot topic. actually the Vatican issued a document late last year even, you know, reminding and doubling down saying you cannot be a practicing Catholic Christian and a member of Freemasonry.

That's a really wild history. So it's fascinating to get into. So we'll cover that. Father's origin story, which I'm really excited to bring on how one becomes an exorcist. And there's a possessed music box, which we allude to in our trailer, which, you know, that sucks. I think he told that story on our on our show. most probably so we decided to dramatize because he was just thrown into this there's an old saying that you don't seek out exorcism it finds you he got drafted he was a first round pick you know it was a

first round pick something the supplemental draft maybe but it was a it was the draft it was the priest was the exorcist was tired and was like i don't deacon go get rid of the devil is the famous line he's like what do i do is like get rid of it right and uh actually that one has and then we have some deep dives into blessing of salt i i am excited to actually do a little bit more you know kind of history and stuff on the weapons of warfare and demonic tactics. So we do tackle the issue of can demons jump from one person to another? That's a scary one. Well, they do with the pigs in the demonic at the tombs, right? That's right. So Christ also commands them into there. So I don't know how that whole thing plays. Yeah, that one, that one does get away. We also have an episode about

yoga. So, is it hot yoga or just regular? So hot, so hot right now. It's so hot right now. So So hot right now, yoga. So no, but the cases are there's some, there's some dark ones in there. And then interesting a lot, there's a couple cases where demons are trying to get people to commit suicide, which is a really tragic, sad topic. But that's a hallmark symptom of heavy demonization is these self-harming thoughts. And it brings up a great question. We really want to, you know, do a dive in.

And, you know, we talk about mental health a little bit earlier. And there's no law that says it can't be both. And so that's a, and that brings up a great question of is all illness of the the devil is all illness in a Christian framework is like is any death entered the world? Is it just a broken universe or is at some level every sickness caused by it? I don't know. And so that's some tough. So it's some edgier stuff.

And since we all cover really interesting topics as hosts, I fully expect a litany of angry emails. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we can't. So we should forward them to each other. It'll be fun. We can sort of. They come in. Or even better, we could do like,

What is that show where they make you read the mean tweets to you? You know, talk about the people, the celebrities have to read the people that make fun or it's, we can just do that, but not publicly. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, I like that you say that because I think sometimes people think that, you know, you have to have sort of one sole mission in life and you can't, you can't be a curious person who is just interested in the weird and weird stories and trying to figure it out. You have to be, you know, you're either like a secret agent for the darkness or whatever people will tell you or, you know, you're, you're causing people

to go astray and you're like, that's one thing I always loved about the scripture is the scripture doesn't shy away from anything. You know, it tells you exactly. And I think that sometimes people are so afraid of, well, if we talk about a Ouija boards, then someone's going to go buy an a Ouija board and then they're going to get sucked into the darkness and then they're going to get their life. So you can't talk about anything. It's like, well, you know, the Bible doesn't treat people like their little kids who can't hear things. It just tells you this. Don't, don't practice necromancy. Don't talk to the dead. You don't want to talk to the dead. You don't know what's going to happen. It's forbidden. And you don't know why. It doesn't, it doesn't just shy away from the

whole subject altogether. It just says, good luck if you try this. Bad things are going to follow you. So it's good to sometimes be reminded of why we started blurry creatures and where it's gone. And now that you're coming into season two, there's always these moments when you're producing a show where you feel like, why am I doing this? What's the point here? Is this helping people or is this just spooking people to death? Are they like scared out of their minds? But I think that sometimes Christians and people who are asking these questions, they've had a similar story. and it's good to be like, okay, that happened to me, I'm not crazy, and maybe I'm going to rethink

how I view my own life and what I think sin is. Maybe I'm going to stop participating in things because maybe they have more effect on me than I will. Maybe they're affecting my health. I have no idea, you know? And how would you even come to that conclusion if you didn't dive into some of these subjects at the level that you are into them, right? Where you would even think that, you know, because so many people who live in this rational world that we've created don't think that there's no way a demon could affect your health like that. But you hear these stories over and everything.

You might change your mind about that. So I think it's a good thing that what you're doing. And I think that despite all the flack and the, and sometimes we're, I'm just saying this to ourselves because we deal with it every day. You know, people are, it wears on you, you know. And I wonder if that is a spiritual. attack just to get you worn down and you just want to give up. You don't want to keep producing and keep putting this stuff out in the world. Oh, yeah. Now, and I, yeah, we, you all should do is you should,

we made a video of like all the thousands of emails that have come in and just like testimonies that people have come to Christ. I mean, I have, I have, I answer. That's the best. That's what keeps me going is I have people write in and say, a lot of will say, hey, I reconfirmed my Catholic faith or I walked away from the church. I have a lot of people say, look, I'm not a Christian yet. I'm not quite sold in that, but I absolutely believe in the reality of evil spirits. And this makes me just, you know, want to guard. And I will say this too. Like, I mean, yeah, we should not want to sin because if we're Christians and God is who he says he is, then yeah, we shouldn't sin because he said so and we want to honor him, right? But we're humans and we're dumb and we usually need,

you know, reasons not to do things, right? And I will say it is interesting, you know, when you start, like, when you start viewing all your decisions as having a spiritual currency and like there's a spiritual counterpart. We talked about like legal agreements, right? What's I found really interesting is that in the spiritual realm, right, everything is about these agreements and authority. So this is a weird kind of, you know, double think or willing thing. But like, for example, all of us baptized in Christ have authority to pray for anything and direct access to talk to the father and ask him, right, to grant our request. On the other hand, So we're all equal in that, right?

On the other hand, there are levels of authority where you have parents who this has happened many times, who whether inadvertently or in tragic cases intentionally, dedicate their children to demonic forces. This happens a lot. You say that's not the kid's fault, et cetera. It's like, well, you know what? That parent has authority, right? And they will say that spiritual authority often mirrors earthly authority. So if you are a father or a mother, you have an authority over your children. And from the cases we've documented, you have a special authority to both bless and harm them.

And so it's interesting to ask ourselves, what areas do I have authority in that I'm not exercising? And, you know, maybe kind of a parting encouragement. I've had issues in business now where I literally, it's changed my prayer life, where I say, I will reaffirm out loud and speak this to myself and say, hey, Brian, like I, in this particular case, like if I'm the like, so one of my companies, I am the CEO and I'm the leader and I'm in charge, right? And there's, I have six people who work for me. And I say, Lord, I am, I'm, you know, I want to affirm my authority under you. Uh, just like the stole of priest's where says, I have authority because I'm under authority. But under this, I have authority. And I want to extend that authority.

Every one of these people has a relationship with me and they work for me. And I want to bless them. And I ask that you extend my protection. And we've had issues. Um, we're disagreements or we feel like something's, you know, off or whatever. And I will just pray and say, Lord, if there is any spiritual attack on my team, right, because of something that's happened, I break that off by my authority as the team leader here, right? Is that explicitly biblical? I don't think it's unbiblical, but like, you know, that's just a thing that Dr. Kraft, Charles Kraft, you know, I think really imparted to me from his book. And I've seen situations turn around instantly. And I do wonder sometimes as Christians, and I'm not a prosperity gospel or I'm not a you know you just didn't pray hard enough

et cetera not at all but I do wonder if there are things in our lives right now that we are not exercising our God-given authority to do and we should think through it so that's a big change that this show has had on me because the cost is to are we if we weren't in a battle Paul wouldn't have given us all this rich allegorical language about how we need to have weapons of warfare etc. That is part of being a Christian is there are fiery darts coming at you. And I think a lot of us, including myself, were maybe a little more asleep to it because that seems to be like the Western strategy is just lure us into health, wealth, house and spouse. And so I hope this show is a fun wake-up call for all of us, because it's exciting. It is gratifying to undo the works of the devil

and to play a part with Christ on that. So, yeah. I think one thing that they made me think of when you're talking is that, you know, the greater is he that is he that is in. in you than he is in the world. Like, if you can come with the realization that there is a he in the world, there is an adversary, then there has to be an advocate. And that advocate is always been,

that advocate is God. And I think that's what's so important about some of these things, that people is not being focused in the darkness, so much to expose the darkness. And if that becomes a reality, as you said those emails, people like, I believe this stuff is real.

If you believe that, the next step is believing that there is a God that has authority over all of this. and he made me, knows me, loves me, knows my name, and he sent his son to die for me. And that, I think, is the amazing thing. As you said, like, the reality for Nate and I, and the same for you is that, is it in this weird way, people encounter the gospel. And that's, that's, makes it all worth it.

That, that is our highest calling. And he established the church, right? And he said, look, I am establishing my church. and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So it's like, it's weird. We've won, and we're just documenting these, like, extra skirmishes now that the war's decided, and, you know, we got to go keep taking territory back, et cetera. So it's, yeah, so bring on the negative reviews.

But you know what? That's why, in it funny, it's always the one negative review always rings so much louder than the hundred five stars. And I don't know. And it's just, you know, it's so funny. So I will go leave a five-star review. for you guys on this interview saying I loved it. Brian. Yes, talk

too much, but I liked him. It happens. It's part of the dog. You're supposed to do. Yeah, you're supposed to talk. But we don't want to. Yeah, that's always one of the things to do. That's funny you say that man. But man, thanks for doing this, Ryan. Thanks for being a friend of the show, man, and a friend in real life. And again,

the next season is supposed to drop early July, as you said, right? And so go out and listen to first season. It's already out there. the Exorcist files is basically anywhere you can find your podcast episodes if you want to contribute to what Ryan's doing there you can late donate to the Kickstarter but it's an amazing it's an amazing project baby and we're just it's great to have you back thanks for sharing all this

I love being able to look behind sort of you know behind the scenes and see and hear the stories because I it does ring true I think to a lot of things that Nate and I have traversed through as well so man awesome stuff looking forward to season two and uh yeah and thanks for some time with us here on blurring features absolutely thank you guys and as we say on the extras files the spin stops here that's good i love it dude thanks brother thank you guys