Blurry Creatures - EP: 260 The Galactic War and Cosmic Geography with Timothy Alberino and Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: August 20, 2024

In this captivating episode, we explore the ancient war in Heaven, the rebellion of the darkness, and the profound impact of this conflict on our world today. Join Timothy Alberino and Dr. Joel Muddamalle as they unravel the epic conflict that predates time itself and its reverberations through history. Timothy Alberino, drawing insights from his book Birthright, presents thought-provoking theories on the cosmic battle between Heaven and Hell, including the shattering of Rahab and the epic struggle between the heavenly hosts and the Dragon’s forces. Dr. Joel Muddamalle, leveraging his theological expertise and doctoral research, examines the cosmic geography outlined in scripture—from the Deuteronomy 32 event to the actions of Jesus in the New Testament—unveiling the supernatural and cosmic significance of key locations in both the visible and unseen realms. This enlightening discussion, recorded during our Blurry Creatures trip to Costa Rica in February 2024, promises to be an engaging and thought-provoking conversation that you won’t want to miss. You can get our book of Enoch here: https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com & Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials. So we're moving in.

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So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's a real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floan it shirts or light and air to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio. If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer,

refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. I believe that some of the planets were inhabited by this angelic race, what I call the elder race, and possibly other, and there's very, very, very interesting things that we could tie in Miros, for example, and there's a lot of very interesting things. But I believe that there was this insurrection against the king of heaven, and there was a technological war. And when I say technological, I mean a kinetic war. And that as a result, our solar system experienced a catastrophic event in which a planet,

was literally destroyed. All of this is galactic in nature. It is a known existence that is perceivable, that there's a tangibility to it, there's a way to get there, there's a way to leave there. The question for me is what happens at the fall? What actually breaks fundamentally in this known world, in the cosmos, in this cosmic reality?

And so for me, I think sometimes we're saying some of the same things the same things with different inflections, but for me, I'm looking at it and saying, you can have something that is truly present here right now that is also unseen, and it's still galactic. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because it's a lot. if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem

with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, welcome back to blurry creatures. We got an awesome episode for you guys today. This episode is live. This is our Costa Rica episode. We had a awesome conversation with Dr. Joel Matamale and Tim Albarino and they're on this intro with us and we're doing it again but we're releasing you guys a teaser out there in the podcast feed because tickets are going live to Costa Rica to Monday at 7 p.m. Central time. So we're going to give you guys a little teaser, little taste of what it was like to be there. And again, so tickets for Costa Rica

part two next year, 2025, February 13. through the 15th, the IP event on the 12th, the day before. Those are going to go on sale Monday, August 26th at 8 p.m. Eastern, 7 p.m. Central time. But this is a taste, as Nate. So this is a taste of what we did last year. And of course, this year, Tim, Joel, Luke, Nate. And then we're having some virtual guests as well, Dr. Laura Sanger and Ashton Forbes. You recognize from the show, are also going to join us virtually for this, for this trip. It's going to be an amazing time of hanging out. Yeah. Going to the beach at night. Fellowship. and then sessions with these two stalwarts of the blurry verse

and some of our favorite most popular, probably our two of the three most popular guests we've had on the show. Gentlemen, tell us why you're excited about Costa Rica, too. What can people expect with the second? Well, we had a great time. We had a blast last year. It was really fun hanging out with Joel, hanging out with you guys and then with all the people who joined us.

As much fun as we had last year, we are actually improving the event, and we're going to have even more fun this year, because as you mentioned, we've added an additional feature to this year's event, which is a beach bonfire hangout that we're going to be doing every evening. So we're going to be still doing our conference sessions in the conference center in Manuel Antonio, and then we're all going to migrate to the beach where everybody wants to be anyway, and we're all going to hang out and play games and fellowship. we're adding that additional component because we know that that's one of the main reasons why people

like to get together, especially people in the blurry creatures audience, is to fellowship with each other and with us. I would say the thing that I'm the most excited about, one, Tim, I echoed that I think it was the first time we got a chance to, like, really meet in person and hang out, and man, we laughed like so hard. I still think back on that. And then my favorite parts of it, I've always said this, you guys, theology should always be done in the context of community.

And so my favorite parts were a Q&A where, you know, we were there. Tim and I were able to interact with everybody, kind of in real time, asking some very specific, context-specific questions. And for me to be able to learn from Tim and then also from you guys as well. And then think about ideas that I've never really thought about. And this is why I think it's so important. And I'm grateful for Luke, you and Nate, for having this vision along with Tim and the invitation to be a part of this, because at the end of it, we actually become stronger, I think, in our faith.

And we also are able to entertain ideas that typically we don't get. to converse about in other places. And the best part of it at all is it's with people you like and you're having fun and you're laughing. Like, I can't think of a better thing than that. This is going to be amazing. In a tropical, in a tropical paradise, it's set up. So it is part vacation, part conference. You're going to get your fill of blurry. And then you get to really, really just kind of sit and listen to the brilliance of Timothy Alvarino and Dr. Joel what Amali talk about the things that we talk about in our show and then walk out and go to the beach and the components this year as Tim said it really and this is 2.0 if you will we're creating

purecured experiences for for fellowship everyone there and of course there's going to be a VIP experience the day before on the 12th and that is going to be an amazing experience a group trip to a beautiful waterfall it's a hike or we're going to have lunch made for everyone there and then 80s party back 80s party back 80s party back at the Airbnb. That's right. And I think one of the things we've learned over the years doing blurry creatures is that a lot of people like the community aspect of this podcast and like they hang out. So this year we're going to incorporate more of that, more time hanging out, more fun, more questions, you know, sitting around the fire asking like, okay, I've been

listening to you for the last couple years. What about this idea? And I think that, you know, give people what they want is just a little bit more one-on-one hangout time and then on the beach and enjoy any vacation. So kind of a vacation conference, hangout, all. the above, everything you've, you've liked and you've developed sort of a camaraderie over the years with all of our fans. You can come hang out with us on the beach. We should also mention that this is Valentine's Day weekend. Yes, true. So this is a, so gentlemen, this is your perfect opportunity to surprise the lady in your life with a, with a Costa Rica beach vacation and blurry at the same time. Another like talking about aliens to get your

lady in your life excited about you know valentine's day somehow that all goes together but uh it does it does have a valentine's day that's out of this world that's there you go we're going to have tickets available again coming up this monday august 26th 7 p.m. central time go to blurrycreatures dot com and uh you'll see the flyer there click and get tickets a members will get the first rack at tickets you got to become a member either tim's community or community and you can get those tickets. And limited, right, Nate? Like, these are limited.

Yeah, very limited. 150 tickets. That's all we can sell for this event. Yeah. So when they're gone, they're gone. So last year they sold out in a week. So people need to act fast if they want to join us in Costa Rica. So we're going to have the conversation that we had last year on this week's episode.

And you can get a little taste of what that was like. If you want to come this next year, again, Monday, the 26th, 17. Central. Thanks gentlemen for coming to the event and doing it again. We're excited. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Get a simple bill. And that's where MittMobil comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. MintMobil offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number. Get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be.

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Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. Would you guys guess? Would you guys ever guess that me and Joel are huge Star Trek nerds? Next generation.

Next generation. Let's be clear. Captain Picard. Captain Picard is my role model. Make it so. Make it so. Make it sell. So we are talking about

the Galactic War and Cosmic Geography, which is a new board game that we're... Yeah, we're working on it. We got a Kickstarter going, so... Rotti My Blurry Creatures podcast. Exactly. We're going to replace Dungeons and Dragons.

Yeah. Got a board game, got some new shirts. Luke can handle the merch. Does that do you know? Star Trek? Who is Nate now? Data. Data.

Nate is data. Clearly. What? Luke's Worf. We knew Luke's Worf. You saw it coming to. I can feel your stress. Your typecast to me, pal.

Now you guys get a little sample what it's like in our Airbnb yeah. All right, we get a series. This is great. Like, I like the, I like the vibe. And I think that's what we try to do

in the podcast, just kind of, just have everyone lighten up and have a good time and talk about things. So now that I made it awkward and did the exact opposite of what I just talked about,

you know, you know what I'm saying. How do we kick off this conversation? Where do you even begin, guys? Where are we beginning, Luke? Probably the Galactic War. It's first in line. Well, you know, what's interesting is we were just sort of brainstorming.

What would be a cool thing to discuss with all of us? together. Someone throughout cosmic, what's it called? Cosmic Geography. And which is obviously sort of a Heiser-esque term. And then anyone who's read Birthright knows I talk about a Galactic War. And so it was, we thought it would be interesting to explore the similarities and perhaps differences in those two worldviews. There's certainly going to be some crossover. We haven't really discussed it yet, maybe a little bit in private conversations, but there's going to be some crossover, but then at the same time I think

there's going to be some variation in the way that we view. Because the word cosmic, I think, means perhaps something different to Joel than it does to me. And I think that's why I use the term galactic. So I guess I'll start here, because that's what Luke told me to do. So galactic is, in my mind, it's, we're talking about something that's contained within the universe, the known universe. When I say known universe, I'm not talking about. I'm not talking about our solar system. I mean, the universe that we understand to exist

because of astrophysics, space, time, energy, matter, that universe, this one that we're currently inhabiting. And I asked earlier the conversation we were having earlier, does the Kingdom of Heaven have locality? And so does the Kingdom of Heaven exist within

this space, time, matter, energy construct? Or does it exist apart from it? and so and I don't know Joel and I haven't had this discussion yet or Luke and Nathanine my view

is that the universe as we know it within this universe this is where the kingdom of heaven is existent it's within the known universe I believe that the universe isn't just created for let's say

particular kinds of beings I think the universe is created to contain all beings. And I don't subscribe to a different realm for, and let's be careful with the word realm here. Let me not use that word here. Let me say this. I don't subscribe to a different universe for spiritual beings and then a universe for material beings. It's contradictory to me in regard to the biblical narrative. I see one unified creation. in which all things consist. In fact, this is what the Bible says in First Colossians 15,

or rather, Colossians 115, that the scene and the unseen, the invisible and the visible, all things consist in the Son of God. So that's sort of a unified field theory, biblical unified field theory, in which everything that was created through Christ, through the Son of God exists within the same boundaries. I do not, so therefore, and this is just my opinions, by the only, I'm just spitfiring here, some of my own thoughts.

Therefore, everything in this universe is subject to the same laws of physics and is subject to not necessarily coming from the same substance, but subject to the laws of physics, which would be universal. across the board. So this is the reason why, and I'm going to wrap this up, and then maybe we'll get Joel's perspective, this is the reason why I don't like the term supernatural.

Now, I'm not opposed to the use of the term supernatural, and sometimes it's almost necessary. But the word supernatural is not a biblical term. It comes from Latin, Soverenaturales, which means above or beyond nature. And I think that something above and beyond nature, outside of God himself, is an unbiblical concept. Now, and what I mean by that is,

there's only one being who is outside of time, outside of creation, and that is God. And everything else is bound, is in a synergistic relationship and bound by the laws of nature. That would include human beings in the animal kingdom on earth and it would include angels,

heavenly beings. I don't believe that there's, as I said before, a spiritual realm per se and a physical realm. I think there's... I do believe there are realms. I actually subscribe to what's... I thought I invented this term

and I come to find out I didn't. That's a bummer, isn't it? It is. It really sucks. I shouldn't tell you that. A plurality of worlds. So I come from a perspective that we're all within the same universe. When I say we, I mean angels and men, whatever else is out there. But there are plurality of realms.

And I have lots of reasons for saying this. And one thing, one of the reasons why I believe this way is because Joel mentioned that you have the term sons of God in a term that is associated with the term. terms sons of God is princes. Sorry. And a prince is, a prince is, the way that these terms appear in the text, it's like a, it's like a, someone who's an authority over something, right? Now, we use the term principality, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in many cases

it comes from the word archon or something like that. That's right. People use the term principality incorrectly because of the term, right, because of the term, in English at least, a principality is not an entity. It's not a being. It's a realm governed by a prince. Now, that's maybe a bad translation

of the original Greek in these circumstances. I don't know. That's something Joel can speak to. But when we say principality, understand, when we use that terminology, we're talking about a realm governed by a prince. And I think that's actually very accurate. Now, we talked about earlier

I'm going to wrap up in one minute. We talked about earlier that Adam was created to be in the family of God as a son. And there's a reason that he was given dominion of the earth, because the sons of God govern. And that's why I think that it's a family affair. It's a royal family. And so if you're going to create a new being, let us create man in our image, this decision that's being deliberated in the council and divine counsel.

In Genesis, let us create man in our image. I think, number one, I think, think that that statement is made in the aftermath of something that happened. And this is an inflection point. Let's create something new. But this new thing that we're going to create mankind, we're going to make it part of the family. We're going to make this new creature a part of the family. So I would say that that's why we're made in the image of God.

That's one of the reasons why we're made in the image of God, because it's a symbol of our membership in the family. but also we had to be made part of the family in order to govern the earth because the sons of God govern. And that's why this word princes is associated with the sons of God because the princes govern in the kingdom. So one more thought on supernatural.

So when I say I don't like the term supernatural, that's not to say that I don't believe in the spiritual. I make a distinction between what people consider supernatural and spiritual. So spiritual can be a form of existence that is different than embodied matter. Or maybe it's not so different, but we just don't understand it yet. We don't have the capacity to understand what that even means yet. So supernatural, the word supernatural is amorphous,

and I feel like it doesn't have any explanatory power, because you have to start from, I think, a flawed assumption that there are creatures, there are beings that are above or beyond nature. And I would say, yeah, there's one. God. Yeah, that's good. Everything else is within created order and abides by the laws of nature.

That God, that we're established at creation, because God is not the author of chaos, but of order. So those are my thoughts. And so just one few more seconds. for me, galactic. Galactic means within the universe as we know it and not

some alternate universe in which spiritual beings dwell or something. No, everything is happening in this universe. I like it. That's good. And if Joel agrees, it's okay, but he's wrong. It's true. I did. True story. Maybe at the end of the conference.

I will talk about how I almost got all the Jamba Juice is shut down in Southern California by making a parallel universe joke. Did you know that Britt, my wife, worked at Jamba Juice? Really? Yeah, and that owner would never give me free smoothies. See? And I never went back. I should have got him shut down.

You should have got him shut down. Luke? I think... I think Luke wanted to insert something before you jump. Yeah. I was going to say, just one thing I liked... I liked what Tim was saying about principality. It made me think of municipality, right? And the idea that a municipality is an area

governed by a town or a local town, right? In the same way, the principality is a locality governed by a prince. And I like words, so I kind of, that makes sense to me. And I think what you said about the idea that we can sometimes, you know, use that terminology for the prince or for this territorial spirit or whatever, whatever the governing Elohim may be. I just like that and thought of that. So I just kind of put municipality and principality and it was like municipal.

This is a town, local government. That's the area that's governed by it, Prince, principality. Let's do a word search. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost.

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No, but I really do think that this is a big part of why the Genesis 6 narrative was kind of switched and turned into something else. Sort of the Sethi-I-I-D-you kind of became because they just didn't, couldn't conceptualize that, something that isn't from here could come here and mate with us and create these hybrid beings. I mean, it's still a pretty fringe belief of most of Christianity. Most Christians do not accept or have any concept of the blurry verse and the things we talk about. And I think if you have more of Tim's perspective, that's not even a weird thing to say. I mean, it sounds like a sci-fi movie, but maybe this is all more like a sci-fi movie. movie. You guys are Star Trek fans and stuff.

Yeah. By the way, what do we... What's good Joel's perspective on Cosmic? Yeah. There's a lot here. I think I want to start with, what do we agree on? So a couple of things that I'm trying to figure out in a lot... I've got so many thoughts. One is

theology should always be done in the context of community. I'll start with that. Very, very important that we have spaces like this where Tim can push back on some traditional understandings or non-traditional understandings where my paradigm is being pushed to limits

maybe even broken in some areas. And so I don't think I told you this, but birthright messed with me. I wrote, I disagree. A lot of times throughout birthright, and then I went back to him and being like, I think I didn't say that. I did say, but I think I'd get where he's coming from, right?

And so all of that to say, I think there's a couple important things. For the most part, two are actually going to say a lot of the same stuff. And I'm trying to figure out, okay, is this a difference with a distinction or not? If it's not a difference with a distinction, then who cares that it's different? Right? The distinction kind of has to matter. What is the distinction?

Here's the first thing that we both agree on. Supernatural is an imprecise word. Absolutely. In my dissertation process, actually, Mike and I ended up arguing over this a little bit. And I opted, instead of using supernatural, I opted to use cosmic, which is why the question of, well, what does Joel think? What is cosmic? And I get cosmic from the Greek word cosmos and this idea of the universe, the world. I'm less philosophical, more narrative. So I'm going to take a little to story here. What's happening in Eden?

For me, cosmic is the description of Eden. And Eden is a cosmic mountain. Where in the, and I'm going to try to use words, and you tell me if I'm using them imprecly or incorrectly, that all of this is galactic in nature. It is a known existence that is perceivable, that there's a tangibility to it, there's a way to get there, there's a way to leave there. The question for me is what happens at the fall? What actually breaks fundamentally in this known world, in the cosmos, in this cosmic reality?

And so for me, I think sometimes we're saying some of the same things with different inflections, but for me, I'm looking at it and saying, you can have something that is truly present here right now that is also unseen, and it's still galactic. It's still universal. It's still cosmic. I think the conception of a far-off distant somewhere else, like other realm, is actually severely unbiblical. The idea of heaven as a far-off distance somewhere else is extremely unbiblical.

The picture of heaven, and from my world, my vantage point is the new heavens and the new earth. It's a return to the cosmic mountain, which is Eden. So I think about a passage like with Elijah, and he's hanging out with a servant. You know, you guys remember this passage, and the servant's freaked out. He's like, we're all going to die. We're all going to die. And Elijah prays, Lord, help him to open his eyes to see.

So is he seeing something that is in another realm? No. I don't think he is because how is something in another realm going to make any type of direct impact in that present physical battle? It would be nonsensical in a way, right? So I think he's seeing something there.

So I would want to see a framework that says, oh yeah, you can see cosmic as both that encompasses all that is natural and that is spiritual that these places are breaking in. This is where I think is happening in Gahanna. This is why I think mountains are so important. I think these are,

are places where either for restoration or for ruin that things are being restored or ruined. I think Molek and Gahanna and the idea of child society, all these things that are happening, is desolation. It's a type of inversion of the super net, I'm using words that we said we don't like, of the cosmic. Stop using that word. Stopping. Of the cosmic that is to point us to something.

And then you have something like Garden of Eden. You have the temple of Jerusalem. Like, it's position on top of a mountain. Why is it position on top of a mountain? Is the meeting place of God? It is the connection point. I know you've got some great, like, interesting ideas on what these mountains actually are.

And so that's probably where I would try to point to the difference with the distinction and try to build a bridge where I think both can be accessible at the same time. And there's a really big issue of corporeal. What does it mean to be corporeal? What does it mean to be embodied? What does it mean to not be embodied? You know? Okay.

Push back. I shall. So let's think about for a minute some practical situations that we see unfolding in the biblical narrative. We have a situation in which Michael, I believe, is dispatched to reach Daniel. And he is resisted by the Prince of Persia. Okay. So there is a distance. that has to be traversed here.

Correct? Yeah. We have a distance that has to be traversed. We have a blockade of some kind resisting Michael from reaching Daniel. He's not like, you know, it's not like Aladdin, the gene in Aladdin where he can poof himself from one location

and appear in the other. So, and he was resisted for, resisted for 21 days, I believe. That seems to be a very practical scenario in which someone is coming from somewhere, distant place, and is encountering a resistance from getting from A to B. So there's a distance that must be traversed. It's going to take time. And there's lots of instances that we could think about. So I, as you all well know, I believe that angels use technology.

I think it's exceedingly evident that angels are using technology. And I don't think they do it for our sake. I don't think they do it just as some sort of a symbolic gesture. I don't think angels eat and drink because they just want to fit in and for whatever reason, eat and drink with Abraham and Lot

just because it's a human custom. I don't think that angels are like a genie and that they can take on a corporeal form and suddenly have a digestive system into which the food and drink go. I think that eating and drinking, and as I said earlier, singing and dancing and writing and all of this was in the universe before we were.

And I think we have a tendency to spiritualize things that are, evident and practical and we can understand them in the way that we understand them among ourselves, among each other, in our civilization. And so the easiest extrapolation for me is, oh, we have these things here. Therefore, they must also be there, including technology. And I would be of the opinion that when we see angels using chariots of fire, the chariots of God, the chariots of Israel, Right? I don't believe in Santa Claus.

Why don't I believe in Santa Claus? Well, for one thing, reindeer don't fly. Right? Neither do sleds. Why don't I believe in angels flying around in chariots? Because horses don't fly. I'm allowed to do that as a 21st century thinker. And I don't feel like I have to be shackled to a perspective that belongs in the Bronze Age. I think I can take that material.

and as a 21st century thinker, not because we're smarter than those people, but simply because we have more information. And we can say, ah, okay, chariot. This was the most advanced form of conveyance known to them at the time. And so to us, it would be a fighter jet or something like that.

And so that's why when we see a, a saucer, we know it's kind of like what we have, but it's not exactly what we have. The closest thing we have to a saucer would be, I know, space shuttle, I don't know. Well, that would be using some of the saucer technology. So I think that angels clearly use technology. They're not flying on horses. They're not flying.

A chariot is not designed to fly. This is not. So they're not seeing a chariot in horses, was unless the whole thing is just symbolic, unless the whole thing is just allegorical and not to be taken as a literal encounter with something that came flying through the air and landed and picked somebody up. If it's to be taken seriously as a physical event, a historical event, then me as a rational thinker, I cannot accept that we're dealing with flying horses because, again, horses don't fly.

So, I believe that we're looking at the implements of an advanced civilization from which these entities hail, and that civilization is called the kingdom of heaven. And again, I'll reiterate, there's eating, there's drinking, there's music, there's writing, there's warfare. How does spiritual entities do harm to one another if they're not embodied? So I think that spiritual means something different than what we think. And it doesn't even necessarily matter to me. I don't know, this might make Joel a little angry. It doesn't even matter to me what the ancient Hebrews thought about the concept of what spiritual meant.

It doesn't really matter to me what they thought. They might have been inaccurate. in their understanding of what spiritual is and what it means. And because they didn't have enough information, they may have assumed that spiritual disembodied. And why do I say that? Because I have too many embodied things going on in the Bible. There's too many instances in which angels are eating and drinking.

There's the Israelites ate manna from heaven in the Psalm says that they ate the grain of heaven, the food of the angels. So bread didn't fall. Grain fell. What was the gluten content? That's a good question. That's a good question. Probably gluten-free.

Probably gluten-free. Probably gluten-free. So grain fell. Much easier on the digestive system, probably. They were walking a lot. Grain fell for the celestial whole foods. and it was gathered up by the Israelites, by the Hebrews, the grain, and it was baked into bread.

Were they eating the food of the angels? And if so, and if the answer is yes, then we have to back engineer it. Where was that grain harvested? What does it come from? Is it like our grain? Does it come from plants? How is it harvested? Is there baking and ham?

heaven? If they're singing and merrymaking and writing and all of this in heaven, is there baking? Is there cooking? Right? And I think the answer to all of this is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We're going to be us in the kingdom of heaven. Our bodies will be resurrected. We're not going to be bodiless. We're going to have our bodies. Right. Just like Christ, who did what? After he was raised from the dead. And he did so purposely in front of his disciples. did he not? They were spooked and he said, touch me. See that I have flesh and bone. Ghosts don't have flesh and bone as I have. And of course Thomas didn't believe. Touch my hand and my feet. See the marks of the crucifixion. This is his body. What do you think was different about his body then?

That's a, that's, that's, I think Joel has some very interesting insights. So I'll let Joel answer that. But, but I'll wrap with this. So not only did Jesus say, touch him, hands. What did he say next? Do you have anything to eat? Why do he say that? He's going to further prove his corporality. Corporal reality. Yeah, it's bodily arisen. Exactly. Fish, bread. He ate it in their midst, it says. Chewed it, swallowed it. The food didn't just disappear into some spiritual realm. It went into his stomach. So that's, those are my thoughts. And you're sticking to him. I'm sick at too.

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No, I think that's really good. And I think that where you and I will probably see differently is the nature of Elohim. I think you bring up some really great thoughts on how does a 21st century thinker about these ancient texts. So what is the purpose of these ancient texts? So we're going to have to go into some questions there. This is the way I view it. I view it as the purpose of the biblical writers is not to give a science class.

It's not. It's not, it would be ridiculous for them to do so. So the question is why? Why would God in his sovereignty and his providence determine that it would be in an ancient near eastern context, in a Greco-Roman context, to use human authors? So, you know, 66 books, 40 authors over the period of some 2,000 years across three continents, which means that you've got three major primary languages, all communicating one primary story, the story of God wanting to have his family back together. And that means by which he would do it is his son, Jesus, the Messiah. So what is it trying to communicate to us? This is, I think, the substance of this. It's trying to communicate to us what a return to Eden looks like. What does life in, what is it

supposed to look like? And this is where part of this is like interesting conversation. But I think it all comes, even in our areas of differences. Tim and I both agree on the corporeality of the risen Christ. Certainly. You can't get around it. So we talked a little bit about this other night late. I don't know if it was 11 o'clock or midnight, but we were talking about this. And for me, you said something very, very important, that Jesus' species unique.

Jesus is the article in front, the son of God monogenes, that Greek, word, which is where we get begotten. It talks about classification and distinction. There's no one like Jesus. So Jesus is unique. And Jesus is the first born of all creation. That he is the prototypical understanding of what the new humanity ought to look like. It is a return to Adam. So we've got to be very careful that we don't try to apply what is very unique and special, uniquely of Christ, which, by the way, the Greek term Christos is a title, not a name. Social Security card does not have Jesus, first name, Christ, last name. Christ is Lord Curios.

It's a title. In that, why is it that we get these particular descriptions of Jesus in his risen body? This is my, this is my assessment of it. It's to point us back to Eden. It's to point us to the eating. It's to point us to the drinking. It's to point us to the relational equity that Jesus had with his disciples. It's to point us to what life in Eden was supposed to look like.

Well, what was life in Eden supposed to look like? It was supposed to always be the place where God's two family household lived in union together. His cosmic family and his earthly family. And there was never supposed to be a divide or a distinction or a division amongst them. So for me, the fall, one of the tragedies of the fall, is that the creation becomes broken as well.

This is where I go and go, okay, this is where you can have the reality of one cosmic world and have things that we cannot see, and yet they are right there. And then your eyes are open, and you go, oh, whoa, you're right there. I think a very important detail on Daniel 8, 9, and 10, and the topic of this conversation is cosmic geography. So I want to get into cosmic geography. We're going to have to do a little bit of Dut Army 32, 8, and 9 worldview stuff,

but I'm going to save some of that for later. So you'll just have to follow with me. But the idea here is that these Sharrim, these princes, they are real entities and beings. Now, can a prince be a prince if he has nothing to be a prince over? No. Just like a king can't be a king if there ain't no kingdom. So these are real things.

The question of how this happens, what is happening in the cosmic realm, the battle that's happening. The biblical text, to me, doesn't give us the answers of the how. It doesn't give the specifics of it. Could it be technological? I'm okay with that. My paradigm is big enough to be like, yeah, sure, it could be. Could it be, here's a fascinating kind of crazy thought that I'm kind of thinking

through right now. Could it be that not all the animals fell at the fall? Eden left. Eden left. Could it be that there are some animals that did fly? Could there have been actual unicorns out there? Like, this is getting real blurry now. Mermaids.

Real bros. Could Ariel be swimming out in the sea somewhere? So there's got to be an openness to the possibility of it. But this is geopolitical, because the question is, why is this battle taking place? God is trying to reclaim the earth. Because the people live on the earth and the people are God's people.

So the earth is gods. So it's a reclaiming of the nations. And so that to me is kind of this the cosmic warfare idea and why Daniel 8, 9, and 10 and the idea of the Prince of Persia, who I actually think is the embodied figure, of Satan is

of Satan is actually fighting against and then there's another figure that shows up at the end in Daniel 10 and it's not Michael. He's just called the prince. He just shows up. Who the heck is the prince? Jesus. Jesus is the prince of princes. The prince of princes. And he shows up.

And so and because he's fighting to have his family back together and that's what's taking place on the cross. There's something else that you had said that I wanted to comment on what's the body what's the difference between the resurrected body of Christ

yes yes yes yes yes yes the point of the resurrected body of Christ is to point us back to what our new bodies in heaven are going to look like or they looked like or they look what Adam probably had what Adam and Eve that's right would have that was their natural state of existence

that's an important distinction right there I think that we have a Western Christian perspective in which a lot of Western Christians, for some reason, have sort of forgotten about the resurrection. And really, and it's just about... Are we being serious, though? It's just about dying and going to heaven.

Yeah. A far off place. Exactly. Or Jesus comes back as like a ghost. Well, you just die and you go to heaven, okay? But there's that transformation that is absolutely necessary before you can go back into the family. And it's called the resurrection.

And I believe that the resurrection is a reset to the blueprint of Adam before the fall. In other words, it's taking your genetic blueprint. Say, Nate, you're still going to be Nate after the resurrection, but it takes your genetic blueprint. Well, there's a really good Star Trek analogy here. I'm not going to use it. We've got another, like, two days, save it. We've got to save our stuff.

Less freckles, less red. It's going to take one. Not man, you're taking your genetic, your genome, we all have what's called mutational, a mutational load. So from deleterious mutations, deleterious just means negative. So we accumulate deleterious mutations over the generations. We all know that a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy is much crappier than the original, right? And that happens with our genome.

So Adam's genome, Adam and Eve, their gene, genomes were perfect, not a single error, 100% perfect. The expression of their humanity was purer than ours. They were more human in some sense than we are. They represented what a human being truly is. We're all a bunch of broken down crappy versions of Adam and Eve. And that's why I think inherent in this condition, this pristine condition at the beginning were extraordinary capabilities that they had that we've lost, including, I would argue

very strongly for telepathy. I think that they were highly empathic. I think that human beings and angels, in other words, Adam and his elder siblings, communicated telepathically primarily. I think that there was a connection, there was a very intense connection that we've lost and that part of that connection was the way that they interfaced with God. And we have it still, but it's broken. It's a broken radio. We have a broken radio. Our communicative, our mechanisms of communication.

Communicative. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's Just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice.

Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. Mechanisms are impaired because we are broken down, because that was consequence of the fall. So there was something in Eden I'm going to try and constrain myself here There was something in Eden

I mean constrain my thoughts So I don't go all over the place There was something in Eden That was regenerative And we can talk about later on What Eden is We can talk about that later on There's something in Eden that's regenerative

Because there's two kinds of immortality And somebody just slapped me If I can go in the wrong direction There's two kinds of immortality which is conditional, unconditional, well conditional and unconditional that's right

or I call it intrinsic and extrinsic so intrinsic immortality is you are created as an immortal being period and then there's extrinsic

and intrinsic means it's part of your nature extrinsic means it's something that's outside of your nature but that you are it's sustaining you extrinsic immortality is an immortality that depends on something. It's conditional.

It's a much easier and simply way to say it. Conditional. In other words, there's something that you need access to in order for you to maintain your immortal condition. Well, that, of course, is the condition that Adam and Eve had. And the angelic beings. And supernatural beings. And the angelic beings. Very good point.

So I believe there's only one intrinsically immortal being, and that is God. Yeah. way, yeah. And in fact, Paul says so much, does he not, that there is one who has immortality. That is God. Yeah, and this is a big, this is a very important distinction as well, because this helps us to make sense of the point that Tim brought up earlier of the, like, the warfare component, because a lot of times we will think, well, they're immortal, they can't die. Anybody watch Highlander? You guys remember that show? Highlander, anybody? There can be only one, you know? Yeah. Where did they get that idea of cutting off people's heads, by the way? I know

you care a lot about head cutting, like that whole Glythe thing. Yeah, no. That's a big question. That's a big deal for you. That's a big, that's a big deal. But you can be. Dude, that bad drop. Look, is so happy right now.

He's so happy. Any time we can poke Tim a little bit, like with that, I know how much he takes to take it off the intro. We're never taking it off the intro, Tim. I think that's an important detail. I think there's an important detail. I think there's an important. detail there that is you can be immortal and conditionally and die.

Yes. You can be immortal conditionally and die. There's a real cost to the cosmic warfare that's taking place. Yes. The uncondition, this is an interest, I don't know what you think about this. The unconditional immortality for me for humanity is reserved when Christ comes back and gathers his human family back together with him, at which point I don't see a relapse a potential of a relapse of this whole story and saga happen again.

I know your probably your brain's going all into different places with that. Let me say one more thing and then you can respond to it. Or if these guys jump in it. Yeah. And then the last thing that is that Jesus' resurrected body is both and not either or. I agree. So both and not an either or. So this is where, again, might be a place of contention between Tim and I,

Why wouldn't that also be the possibility for supernat? I keep going back to that. I'm going to have to strike it from my vocabulary from cosmic beings. I don't know. You know? So I think something fundamentally broke at the fall. And I think, here's another one, big, big, big, very important one, is Eden goes away. I know you've got some thoughts on where it goes.

I think it's accessible. I think Eden goes away, but it's accessible. It's temporal. But then it comes back in Revelation. Anybody remember what the distinction is, but the difference when it comes back, is it still a garden? It's a garden city. It's a city.

So how in the world does a garden leave and come back as a city? I've got thoughts, but I'm going to hold those thoughts, too. Luke, Nate? Star Trek analogies. I don't think it's ever happened to you. I mean, I feel like you guys have all. No, I mean, I think I think that I try to

I try to think for the blurry verse here, right? You know, I know a lot of people send us questions and emails. If an angel doesn't have a body, what is it? Because a lot of people think they shape shift. They just shape shift into this.

They shape shift into that. What is it? If it's not in its normal state, as God made it. If it can just shape shift in anything. To genie. But what does it go back to? That's a good question.

What is its natural? Yeah. It's a natural state is its taxonomic purpose. Huh? If you are a cherub being and your role in responsibility is to be a guardian throne being, that's what you're supposed to be. If you are an angel, if you're an angelus, if you're a messenger, that's what you're going to be.

What's happening in Isaiah chapter 6 with the seraphim? And, you know, they're flying and they're covering and they're the holy type of, they've got a function. They've got a role. They've got a responsibility. That's what they're, there's a functionality. There's a functionality to it. What do they look like?

Well, yeah, like I would say the reason that angels lost it out. They look like elves in the Lord of the Rings. That's what they look like. Naturally. Naturally. The reason that, yeah. And Eden is like that. Nate.

Nate. Hey. Let's go. Anybody out there ever watch Ali G back in the day? Allie G. Did you say? This feels like an Allie G moment where he used this thing was like, What is it?

What is it? Exactly. Yo, what is it? Listen, like, I'm not going to answer this question or even ask a question. I'm just say this is one of my favorite. Maybe my most favorite segment. I think we've ever did. Someone about this I love.

I love that we can come together. Joel, I think he said it really, really well. Like, theology is best done in the community. And we can have people that have the same, the main thing is the main thing. And we can talk about the peripheral around it and kind of explore that, like in a thought experience. And I just, something about this I really love.

Like, because I think people take such hard lines with theology that they can't be flexible and people have ideas they still trapped themselves into and the reality is we know so little about this I think in general like as you said the Bible is not explicit so I just

I just love this I don't know I'll say that it sounds weird but I really just love this conversation aside from the allergy reference I just think these are these are important things and I'm saying I'm being serious and this is one of the most favorite discussions we've ever had Nate just because

I think you guys are so smart and also courteous and also coming from different places. I love you guys and I love this. You see us in the Airbnb at night. I sound like Nate here. I sound like Nate's like refereeing. Tin man got a heart. We got it there. Nate, you're the emo guy.

But I do love this. And I just had to say that. I think this is such an important thing. From a corporate church. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. It's just, you know, theology.

you, what is it? It's just one of these emotions is true. Anyway, that's all I got. So, let's put... Here's what I want to say before that. Would you lust after something that you weren't like?

Hmm. Why would an angel lust after a human woman if he wasn't like? What about bestiality, Nate? Look with there. This is a family show. This is a family show. I think that's a different thing.

I think that's a different conference altogether. That's a different conference. And thanks for coming. Yes, but we had a real good time. We had a real good time. We may explore this a little more. Luke's going to act like it glitches. Even with beast reality, though, you're still,

you're still, you're still approximating something. Are you not? You're still approximating something. We won't go any further than that. But it's still the same mechanisms, the same reproductive. organs. You're just... I'm sorry.

It's an issue... I'll try to rein this back together. It's an issue of curiosity gone wrong. It's an issue of curiosity gone wrong. Curiosity without limits is chaos. It is always chaotic. And so the question, from my vantage point, the question about why would the angels

long after something or less after something that they were not already like? I actually think you answered the question by the very basic presumption that they're not like it. So if you're not like that thing, and you have a curiosity of what it is to be like it, and now your thought is, well, God's holding something back from me by not making me like that thing,

and this is a cruelty of God, not a kindness of him. And now I have to, we talked earlier, see, taken desire of that thing of my own, then it kind of starts to make sense. I don't think we have to... I would say it's an issue of raging lust over curiosity. I think you're right, but I don't think that you get to raging lust without first curiosity.

Well, sure. I think it opens the door. Like, you don't become a porn addict unless you see something and you're like, whoa, I wonder what that's like. Well, I mean, I'm more saying, let's look at it from like a one-two scenario. Like, you would lust after something

that's kind of like you, but not. But then the smoking gun in this whole story is that if they shape shifted exactly as humans, became humans, they would not have this genetic hybrid children. They would not have this wild card of giants. Their DNA would be the exact

same. Right, because something's mixing. It's an unholy mixture. You're taking a... What's mixing? You're taking an angelic DNA and you're putting it in to a human woman. How do they do that, Nate? Oh. Well... Ginger's don't know, but

we can speculate a lot. And welcome to Blurry after dark. This is like, you know, the club Shay-Shay, like Shannon Sharp after after dark. This is like, oh my gosh. Somehow the gingers keep coming out of nowhere, but it's usually like two dark-haired people, and this ginger comes out, and they're like, what? It's supernatural.

It's supernatural. It's supernatural. That's a big deal. But, no, but I mean, you know, these giants, their anomalies. You know, it seems like they're different. Are we supposed to talk about that? We're going down to Genesis 6.

I know. We're burning all our content for tomorrow. Yeah, we are. We got more. Luke's got lots of... Let me reorient us. Let's go back to Eden. Yeah.

Let's go back to Eden and then let's try and get before Eden. I love Eden. Oh, God. Can you talk about Rayhab? I want you to talk about Rehab, too. I'm trying to get to Rehab. I know you're trying to get to.

I'm like, get to Rehab. Because we need to know what White Tovobobobob. It all goes together. I think this is fascinating. Okay, well, let's say, Joel, this is very Tim. This is very Tim, because we'll get an hour in the episode, and Tim's like, now that we've got the introduction done.

Yeah, by the way, you get two-hour episodes. I get like 60 minutes, that's it. I'm a big deal. That's a new line. That's the new line. Make it so. Make it so. Oh, my God, this is going off the rails.

Okay. All right, Rahab. Okay. So I want to go from Eden back, get this conversation funneled back into the cosmic, whatever, and the galactic. So here's a good question. We could sit here and talk about Eden for a long time. Eden is really, really fascinating. And we probably have some very divergent ideas, but then I would guess that we have some ideas that converge.

And I'll bet you that me and Joel are probably in the minority. on some of the things that we agree on in regard to the scholarly community and and certainly in regard to um traditional protestantism even even catholic thinking so as i said i believe that the resurrection resets us to the blueprint of adam jesus is the second atom so it's through it's it's by way of this reset genetic reset to Adam that we can go back into the family. And so it is a return to Eden. I absolutely agree. It is a return.

And by saying it's a return to Eden, I would say it's a return to Eden, hence to the house, to the father's house. See, I believe, I don't know, you might disagree with me here. I think that the term heaven, now heaven's a little different, but we'll use it. I think that the term heaven, Eden, Paradise. and the father's house are synonymous. Yeah. And can be used interchangeably.

And this is why, you know, as you... And they are used interchangeable. And they are used interchangeable. And Hebrew word Bayeth is used, we talked to us earlier, kingdom, temple, and household. And the temple is the cosmic household of God. Eden is the literal household of God. And you've got the temple imagery that's happening

all the way throughout the Old Testament. Very good. So Eden, this is why you have the... Eden as a city, in the book of Revelation. Also, think about the tree of life. Where's the tree of life? Well, in the book of Revelation says that the tree of life, for those who overcome, Jesus says,

he will give them the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Well, where is that? So I don't think he's referencing an earthly location there. So what I see, when you take Eden, when you take heaven, What I see are a variation of terms that are referencing the same thing, and the same thing, the nucleus is the family. That's the point.

It's the family. So Eden represents mankind's original condition, which was unbroken fellowship with the father and with his elder siblings, the other sons of God, in the family of God. That's what Eden represents. And to segue into the Rehab stuff, we can sit here and talk about Eden for an hour, but to segue into the Rehab stuff, I'm interested in a question that I don't know that many people reflect upon,

why did God create Adam in the first place? Why? Why was the counsel deliberating in Genesis? Because that's what you have. You have a council, the divine counsel, right? deliberating. Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,

and let him have dominion of the earth. Well, we know that the us is the Elohim, to the divine counsel. But why is that decision being made? Why are they deliberating? And this goes back to what we're talking about, and why, you know, the spiritual verse, the spiritual verse,

the physical I see a council deliberating. They're sitting there, deliberating. It's in the kingdom of heaven. It's in some sort of a, probably some sort of magnificent building or something like that.

So, I'm seeing civilization here. I'm seeing an event that's happening in a timeline that pre-exist us. How did we get to where the council is sitting there deliberating? Are you following me? How do we get to the deliberation? Yeah. What happened to

motivate the council, and of course the king who's presiding over the council, the son of God presiding, the prince of princes, as he's called in the Old Testament, presiding over the other princes, who I believe are themselves governing other realms? Why are they deliberating? Why are they creating mankind? And I believe that the answer is, and this is, again, not many people consider why create mankind the answer is because something catastrophic just happened something happened and God is going to renew the earth he's going to renew this realm and they need a new governor now you're going to have to help me here Joel there's a very interesting couple of

verses so this is the writer of Job I believe describing the king's disposition at this event, at this moment where the deliberation is happening to create mankind. Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight. Well, that's interesting. Even in his servants, he puts no trust, and his angels, he charges with error. I'm sure that there can be an argument here for that for this falling within the context of the

Deuteronomy 32 worldview and all of that and I think that's legitimate but I don't view it that way I think what we're looking at is a scenario which as I said something catastrophic happened the council is now deliberating to take to make a decision

to rectify something So what was that catastrophic thing that happened? Could it be, Tim, like, God the Father and God the Son deliberating? Not the council? No. You don't find, typically you're not fine. It defeats the whole purpose of the council. You know, like, there's, and we're in talking about this later, is there's two powers in heaven idea.

This, like, Psalm 82 is a judgment scene, but every, like, judgment. one opening scene, First King's 12, I think, something like that. These scenes are council scenes where Yahweh is like, poses a question or elicits some thought or idea and then invites the angelic host or the cosmic beings to come and give their thoughts and their ideas. I think this is clearly a divine counsel scene. Yeah. And so again, what is it that happened? I think we all know the answer.

there was, in my opinion, there was a galactic rebellion. It was a rebellion. Where do you get the rebellion from? From here. So, now this is not, I'm going to say this right out of the gates here. For those of you who read my book, this is not something that I would consider to be plainly evident in the Bible. This is something that requires out-of-the-box thinking, maybe it's stretching. it, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'll give you my perspective.

And those of you have read my book, probably know where I'm going here. So there's a name, Rahab that shows up in the Old Testament on several different occasions. Now what's really interesting about the word rehab is the connotations of the word rehab are fierce, insolent, proud, and boaster. And these are the calling cards, I believe, of a renegade prince. A character who is never actually named. I do not believe that Lucifer is the name of Satan, of Satan, the chief of the Satan's, let's say. I believe that Lucifer is actually a misnomer.

Lucifer's a light bearer that was Jerome made. it into a proper name. This character, I don't believe, is ever actually named in the scriptures. I think he is so abominable that he is not given the privilege, let's say, of a name in the scriptures. He must not be named? Exactly. Harry Potter River.

So it is exactly like that. It's he who must not be named. Yeah. And he is so abominable. And what he did was so terrible. It created so much chaos and rebellion that he's just referred to in a very indirect way. In the Book of Revelation, I think we have the, well, we certainly have the dragon denomination. And the dragon denomination is associated with the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan.

Right? So these are all monocers. None of these are names. They're monikers. They're appellations of somebody. They're not names. And so when we encounter this verses regarding related to Rahab, this is a little bit difficult because it's a very technical when I'm trying to condense it.

When we encounter verses that have references to Rahab, they're always in, they always have the same connotation. I'll give you some examples. They're distinctly bellicose, always, and directly associated, I believe, with a rebellion, with the dragon's rebellion, and the triumph of the king who vanquished him. So here's some references. The pillars of heaven tremble

and are astounded at his rebuke. By his power, he stilled the sea. By his understanding, he shattered Rehab. That's very interesting. Shattered like a pot. Shattered Rehab. Here's another one. awake, awake, put on strength, oh arm of the Lord, I think that's a reference,

who be son of God, awake as in days of old. That's interesting. The generations of long ago. Was it not you, son of God, who cut Rehab in pieces who pierced the dragon? Now we have dragon and Rehab being associated. Remember Rehab, always bellicose. The connotation, and Rahab means fierce, insolent, proud, boaster. Here's another one.

You rule the raging of the sea when its waves rise, you steal them. Who's it talking about here? Who's, I believe we're talking about the king. This is the king. This is the triumph of the king over something. So the raging of the sea, you still them. You have broken Rehab in pieces as one who is slain. You have scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

I'm going to read here what I wrote in Birthright. Stilling and ruling the raging Sea are metaphors for quelling and subduing insurrection. The shattering of Rehab was the decisive blow that pierced the dragon and brought his rebellion to an abrupt and devastating end. And then I go on to explain what I think Rehab was. I think Rehab was a planet. And again, I know this may seem out there to some of you, and it's just my conjecture, food for thought, if you will.

And I believe there's all kinds of stuff like this that's laced throughout the Bible, especially the Old Testament. So I believe that before the creation of mankind, the, let's call the angelic civilization was inhabiting the universe. And this is a timeline we know nothing about. God doesn't have to tell us anything at all, let alone things that don't pertain directly to us.

And this does not pertain directly to us. This would be a timeline previous to the existence of mankind, a pre-adamic paradigm. There was a galactic war. And when I say a galactic war, I mean a, not just some sort of a spiritual battle, I mean a kinetic war in which the king of heaven went to battle with his adversary, who is referenced as the dragon in the scriptures, and who drew, and I don't know if it's one-third, I don't know if I did the one-third, they wouldn't have to go there, but who took at least his realm. And I believe, by the way, that the dragon in the book of Revelation has seven heads, that these are what I call the seven dragon princes. I think these, you have the primary guy, and then you have his subordinates who are with him,

the devil and his angels that were drawn into his rebellion. And they went to war against God. And when you say they went to war against God, who are they warring against? They're warring against the king and the kingdom of heaven. What did Jesus say? The kingdom of heaven suffers what? Violence. Violence.

And the violent take it by force. This to me speaks of incursions into the kingdom, and the armies of the kingdom expelling the intruders. Now, why do you have an army? What is the purpose of an army? The only logical purpose of an army is to protect the borders of a given realm. There is no other purpose for a standing army. So a standing army repels invaders, does it not?

And so the kingdom of heaven has enemies. And these enemies aren't just spiritual things. There are, there's violence that's done. And there's battle, battle, there's wars that are waged. And this is, and I'm going to finish my thought here, so these guys can all chime in. But so I see, before the creation of Adam, I see. see a catastrophic war breaking out in the cosmos, in the universe, possibly even in our solar system.

I believe that some of the planets were inhabited by this angelic race, what I call the elder race, and possibly other, and there's very, very, very interesting things that we could tie in Miros, for example, and there's a lot of very interesting things. But I believe that there was this insurrection against the king of heaven, and there was a technological war. And when I say technological, I mean a kinetic war. And that as a result of this war, it came, it came, as a result of this war, we, the universe, let's make it our solar system. Our solar system experienced a catastrophic event in which a planet was literally destroyed. And I believe that that planet is Rahab, and I believe it is located. It is the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter.

And this may sound fanciful. There's a whole lot more I can't say because it would take hours and hours and hours. But there are so many hints to this pre-ademic timeline and this galactic war. And it makes perfect sense that after this, remember, he puts no trust in his holy ones. After this conflict, we get to this inflection point where it's time to create a new member of the family. somebody who is untainted by the events of the past

someone who could be trusted to govern the earth which is going to be renewed given into the hands of a new prince, a new member of the family. So I think that's where the human story begins.

It doesn't begin from nothing. There's a timeline that precedes us. Now, this is all conjecture but I find it fascinating and I could be of course completely wrong but I think there there may be something interesting going on here. Yeah, I mean, you guys, we've talked about this a lot on the show, but, you know, I think

there are hints a lot. I mean, I think about just bigger pictures. I mean, we talk about some of these subjects. There's little hints and clues that, you know, okay, these giants existed, and there's no one smoking gun. And I think what you're trying to say is like, look, there's little verses that hints that that we aren't starting at episode one. We're starting at episode four.

Precisely. That's a good point. And, you know, we get into these stories and everyone wants to go back. Okay, Game of Thrones is huge. Let's, what's the origin of that story? You know, let's go, let's, you know, and I think we all want to know. What was the beginning of the beginning of the beginning, right? And I think that it is a little, I think all of us feel like there's, there's a lot going on before we rolled on to the scene.

The thing about that view that appeals to me is it helps to be. bring a little bit of a better picture to that opening sentence of Genesis 1. That's what I was talking to Tim about earlier, is that Toho-Vabojo, Wasteland and Wilderness, typically there's not very great explanations for why do we start with that? Like, did God initially intend to start with wasteland and wilderness? Right? So there's some questions.

So that's at least from my standpoint as I'm processing through this kind of in real time and working through. I'm like, oh, that kind of helps to make sense of some of that. Some background, ancient areas from context on it. Rehab was also viewed as one of the sea monsters. So there's this, I don't know if you got into it. I remember reading this in the book. But there's a weird passage, I think it's Psalm 40.

One of the passages where the plural for Rehab is used, Rehab Beam, which I think is building some of the foundation for what Tim is talking about here. and that Rehabian, that plural, is referring to demonic, categorically demonic entities or beings. And then there's this whole ancient Near East and Mesopotamian story of, anybody watch the Eternals? Marvel Eternals, yeah? You know they just ripped off the Mesopotamian Near East, right? That whole thing. Tiamit, the sea monster, the whole nine yards, that is ancient Mesopotamian myth.

They didn't even like try to plagiarize it well. They just used the same names. It was crazy. But that is the story of Tiamit. I mean, Tiamit is another name that would have been used for Rehab, and the whole idea of the origin story of creation, which is chaotic. It's destruction.

So, yeah, some other kind of hyperlinks back to that thought. Now, we are coming up on 830, so I don't know if we just want to roll through that. But it depends on you guys, how late everybody wants to go and everything. But let me put a cap on this here real quick. So let me give you a sense of what this may have looked like. Okay? I'm going to read here from Birthright.

When Rehab exploded, its smoldering shards rain down on the planets in its vicinity. Each one striking with a force many times thousands... Who wrote this? Each one striking with a force many thousands of times more powerful than a nuclear bomb, igniting their atmospheres with a firestorm, hot enough to liquefy solid rock and vaporize everything else. The impacts would have triggered chains of volcanic eruptions and mile-high tidal waves, melting and washing away every vestige of the rebel kingdoms so that nothing would be left to posterity.

Now listen to this. Personified as a spectator to this cataclysmic event, the earth saw and trembled as the insurgent forces of the apostate princes, the gods, were incinerated before the Lord. His garments stained with crimson, striding forward in the greatness of his strength. And this is a verse from Psalm 97. Fire goes before him and burns up his adversaries roundabout. His lightning lit up the world.

The earth saw and trembled. The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord. Now listen to this. Who is this addressed to? Is this addressed to us? Worship him all you gods. Zion heard this and was glad, and the daughters of Judah have rejoiced because of your judgment,

O Lord, for you are the Lord most high over all the earth. You are exalted far above all gods. That to me, I see the king of heaven vanquishing his enemies, who we would call gods, before mankind was created, shattering Rahab like a vessel and bringing this insurrection to an abrupt end. And here's what I say, I'll just continue here.

Psalm 89 provides a fitting synopsis of the concepts that I was presenting in this chapter. Written in, in my opinion, written in Memorium of the Dragon's Rebellion, the Psalm proclaims a solemn warning to all those who would dare to defy the king of heaven and rise up against him. For who in the skies of cosmos

can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord? This seems to be really addressed to somebody else, not just human beings. A God greatly to be feared in the council of the Holy Ones and awesome above all who are around him.

O Lord, God of hosts, armies. Who is mightier, who is mighty as you are? O Lord, with your faithful all around you, in contrast to those who are in rebellion against it. You rule the raging of the sea insurrection. When its waves rise, you still them. You crushed Rahab like a carcass. You scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

And the arm of the Lord is the son of God. The heavens are yours. The earth is also yours. The world and all that is in it. you have founded them. And then I go on to talk about how Jesus, what does he do when he's crossing the Sea of Galilee? He calms the sea. This is a depiction. This is the king who quelled the insurrection. And there's reasons why I say that. So when I talk about Rehab, and this, by the way, ties into directly into Idom. Edom is another very interesting, I think, illusion. Edom was one of the arch

enemies of Israel, probably the arch enemy of Israel. And EDAM means red. Comes from Esau. And it's associated with Esau. And I think it's also symbolic, certainly has a historical context. I'm not denying it's very obvious historical context. But I think it also has intimations of something else. I think Eidom is a reference to Mars, personally.

But so I see a galactic war erupting in the cosmos, erupting in the galaxy, before the creation of mankind. and that it is this war that precipitates, that catalyzes this decision to create mankind.