Blurry Creatures - EP: 262 The Sons of God with Timothy Alberino & Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

Join us for an unforgettable episode recorded live from our Costa Rica conference, where two of the most intriguing minds in biblical and ancient mysteries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle and Tim Alberino, dive deep into the enigmatic chapter of Genesis 6. Explore the origins of the Nephilim, the sons of God, and the pre-flood world as these experts unravel the profound implications of this mysterious text. Whether you're a scholar, a seeker, or simply curious, this conversation will challenge your understanding of ancient history and the Bible. Tune in and be part of this captivating journey into the ancient past! COSTA RICA TICKETS! blurrycreatures.com/members You can get our book of Enoch here: https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com & Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials.

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Every time this phrase, Sons of God is used, who does it attribute to? Outside of Genesis 6, Sons of God, in the Old Testament, it's always some type of cosmic being. These are the same beings that are mentioned in Job, the Sons of God, the morning stars that are shouting for joy before creation. So here's a hermeneutical principle. If the same phrase is being used in the same way, and now you're trying to say that this phrase is being used in a different way

in this passage, you better have really good rationale. You need to have lexical connections, which means word connections. You need to have contextual connections, which means imagery that's being recapitulated throughout the rest of scripture. Like, you need to have two to four specific ways to really substantiate a human reading.

And here's the problem. You don't have any of that for Genesis 6. Every time it's used, it's used in reference to cosmic beings. What's your favorite 80s speech movie, Luke? 80s speech movie. Probably Goonies. It's on the Oregon Coast,

It's not your typical beach movie. A beach in the last, right? Astoria, baby. The water's cold, but there's a pirate ship, hidden a sea cave. I think technically we can get away with that. We're excited because those who know, blurry is going back to the beaches. That's right. We're going to go to Costa Rica. We're going to be there next year. February 13th through the 15th in beautiful Manuel Antonio. Last week we released one of our sessions with Timothy Alvarino and Dr. Joel Matamale from last year's conference. And we're going back to do it's part two. Running a back this time bigger, better, and more intimate, more hang time.

It's going to be a blast. We can't wait to get back to San Antonio, of course. In the middle of winter here in the United States will be on the beach. You'll have to hide yourself from the sun because you're a ginger, but it's going to be a fantastic trip. There are only about 40 tickets left as of now. Last year, it sold out in a week, and I think this year is going to be even faster. So if you'd like to join us in Costa Rica for our second annual Costa Rican conference with Timothy Albrino, Dr. Joel Mama Tamale must be a member. So these these tickets are available to members only for now. Yeah, my mind is still stuck on 80s beach movies, Luke. So I'm having a hard time paying attention. You threw yourself a curveball. You never throw yourself a curveball. And you did it for the beginning.

If you're a little slow like me, a little ADD, a little distracted in life, you might need a second email says, hey, there are tickets. Okay, I want to go to this thing. That's, I know there's some people out there who are ready. People right there are waiting to buy the tickets. And there's people like me who are just like, oh, crap. Is there still tickets? Remember a major league, Nate? I heard of the Major League. Forget the curveball. Give them the heater, Ricky. You know, you haven't made any better off dead references on this podcast,

which I think is one of my favorite 80s movies, John Kusack, Better Off Dead. Yeah, you haven't. I want my $2. Two dollars. There's nothing to do with this episode or Costa Rica, but somewhat with the show because it's 80s. This is your tangential mind, Nathan Henry. It's right. It's like, we're talking about the beach and I'm talking about a movie where they ski the K-12.

Lane Meyer, my favorite part of that was the two Asian brothers that pulled up next to them, that they learned English by watching the wide world of sports. Remember that? Yeah. Those of you guys out there like our podcasts, appreciate you guys. Sometimes we have fun here. Obviously, we have an 80s theme. We have a good time.

And we're going to do this on the beach. And we're going to be doing more hangouts. I know a lot of people, the VIP tickets went in like a few hours because people want to hang out. I know that's a big part of this. So even regular tickets are going to be VIP-esque. We're going to be hanging out at night. We're going to be, have a little session on the beach. And it's going to be fun.

So if you want to come to Costa Rica, have some live podcast, but also like get to talk. about some blurry things that have been bugging you in the mind. Take those questions to Tim and we'll answer your favorite 80s movies questions. So don't bring us the hard ones and get maybe your theological questions you can throw at Joel. And we'll answer movie trivia, whatever you got. Yeah, and the dynamic duo of Tim and Joel played so well, obviously, last year we had to do it again.

I love these sessions. This is a taste. If you want more of this, join us in Costa Rica. Of course, tickets right now, there's only about 40 tickets left again. They're available only to members. So if you're not a member, go to blurrycreatures.com slash members, join up. And you'll get a shot at these last few tickets. This is an ultra-exclusive event.

When the tickets are gone, they're gone. And we'd love to have you. Us, Joel, and Tim, we're in Costa Rica in February of 2025. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right. Because if one person's right to bust the power, It all goes back to the fallen church.

And the problem with the modern-day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. I think we broke the ice last night, though. We had a good time. You guys have fun yesterday or what?

We're starting off with, I guess, the whole crew here. We're going to go right back into it. A lot of times yesterday, We pause and said, we're going to talk about that tomorrow, and it is that time, gentlemen, here we are. So we're talking about Genesis 6 right from the get-go, which is kind of sort of when I think that was the whole huge part of the podcast, is trying to figure out, okay, is Bigfoot a part of this Genesis 6 event? And that's sort of, Tim, you were kind of in the Genesis 6 space with a lot of the pioneers of the Genesis 6 space, like way back when. And I don't think Luke and I really had any idea of all these names, you know, the Tom Horns,

those kinds of guys that were pioneers of the Genesis Sixth Space, right? Right, Luke? We had no idea how weird this rabbit hole went. No, we did not, Nate. You know, yeah. So you want to start a podcast, huh? All right. Yeah.

No, I was just going to say that, you know, the Tom Horns and the Chuck Mistlers and the folks, L.A. Marsullis, right? all these folks that have been banging this drum, because Tim could correct us if it wrong, but there was a big Nephilim sort of kick or interest spike, I know, in the 90s. We're an 80s show, but hey, the 90s were cool. I mean, you and I were in high school, Nate.

And the Nephom thing was happening before we sort of stumbled into it, and intentionally trying to figure out this Bigfoot creature, as you said. So it was pretty interesting. I mean, I know personally, we always say it's a Journey podcast, right? And for me personally, this was... Pretty eye-opening. You know, you and I both raised in church. You went to Christian high school so you could play on the basketball team.

And... Did you come off the bench? Hey, hey. I wrote the bench at the D-1 school, but I started at D-5. Okay, come on. Yeah, baby. Yeah, baby. Big red in the post.

That jumper. No, but I didn't ever hear about this, you know, growing up in church. And this was a, you know, a big paradigm. shifter, you know, to use that word a lot, but it really was for me personally. I know you had already been invested in the space, you know, with 10,000 hours of remodeling homes and listening to Bigfoot podcasts, but it was pretty, it was a pretty big shift. And so it's exciting because I think it just, you know, Joel and Tim are,

and Joel being a theologian and, you know, Tim being, you know, researcher, scholar, adventurer, all the above, but he's, they're so well versed in this. it just was, it felt so new and exciting. It opened the scriptures for me. I don't know if anybody else feels that way, but it really does start to make things make sense, whether it be the conquest of Joshua, the flood, even the days of Noah stuff that Christ talks about,

you know, in the New Testament. It begins to all really, it feels like a key that unlocks a lot of that. And so I'm excited to get into this with two guys that are much smarter and have better licks, if you will, in this space. Yeah. Yeah. excited to see how your guys' opinions like match and maybe some different perspectives from both you so for a long time our Genesis 6 episode Tim was like kind of i think blew up and was our

like most downloaded episode and um went viral like last summer i loved i loved the the freshness and the more of the it just felt more like a star wars version i don't know where you can want to kick it off. Like, some things that we haven't talked about before on the podcast, but maybe we'll have to rehash some of the old stuff that we've already kind of kicked around. But I love your perspective on it. I'm confident that all of you are familiar with the general Genesis 6 narrative. We don't have to argue for a supernatural reading of that, right? No. No set of ideas in here. Cool. So, as you're well aware, the reference in Genesis 6 is somewhat amorphous and it requires additional reading it requires some extra

biblical text to to fill in the blanks to enlarge the story and we find the the most detailed account in the book of Enok now I'm of the persuasion that portions of First Enoch were indeed written in the anti-delubian world, or at least were written after the flood through our tradition, through the recollection of Noah and his sons. That can be debated, but I do believe that portions of the Book of Enoch, I guess, if we're going to talk about Genesis 6, we probably should begin by talking about the Book of Enoch. Because without the Book of Enoch, there's really not a whole lot of material. There's some things. You have Second Temple literature. You have some references

elsewhere and extra biblical texts. But it really is the Book of Enoch in which we find the definitive narrative of what I call the Genesis Six affair. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the writer of Genesis, be it Moses or someone else, was actually copying. and pasting from the Book of Enoch, so to speak. A couple of those verses are almost verbatim. And R.H. Charles, who was the best translator of the Book of Enoch, who translated it from Giaz or Gies, the liturgical language of Ethiopia, because that's where the Book of Enoch was preserved,

fragments of it among the Dead Sea Scrolls, first Enoch. R.H. Charles, for whatever reason, ended up synchronizing the beginning of the story of the watchers in the same chapter where we find it in Genesis. In other words, in First, Enoch, chapter 6, verse 1 and 2, which corresponds to Genesis, chapter 6, verse 1 and 2, in which we find the famous reference to the Nephilim and the daughters of men, the sons of God,

who were desiring, lusting after the daughters of men. I think it's important to note that that term sons of God in Genesis, in Genesis 6, in the Septuagint, it's rendered as angels. The scribes who translated the Septuagint, which is Greek from the Hebrew, and Aramaic, they decided to use the word angel there.

So that is, I think, significant, and it's a real hurdle for anyone who would argue against the Sons of God in Genesis 6 being anything other than angelic entities. I'm sure you've all heard of the Sons of Seth theory and which I think is complete nonsense. I'm sure we all do. So we find the baseline narrative.

We find the we find the narrative that would have been familiar, I think, to all of the Hebrews, ancient Hebrews, we find that narrative in the book of Enoch. And again, it might be elsewhere. There might be lost manuscripts in which there's even more exposition on the watchers that we don't have or we don't know, but from what we know, it's the book of Enoch.

And it's very interesting because I'll try to make this short and then, and then I'm sure Joel has some commentary, but the book of Enoch is a very complex manuscript. By the way, I don't know how many of you know this, but Nate, Luke, and I are just about finished with our own version of the book of Enoch. That's what we've been working on.

Awesome. And it has, I write the introduction and commentary, and we have, and by the way, my introduction is, maybe it's going to be surprising some of you, some of the things I write in my introduction, but Nate worked on some concept scenes. So what we wanted to do was we wanted to create something that was different and that was unique.

And the commentary in the introduction is going to give you a different view for sure. But I think what's really going to give you a different view is the concept scenes. We have concept scenes in the book where there's like a description of an event, And then there's a, there's concept art, there's an illustration. And it's not your typical rendering of the Anacian tale.

It's a very unique perspective, let's put it that way. So it's good, we're really excited about it. We've been working really hard on it. That's coming out soon. So, so the book of Enoch is a very complex manuscript. There are unquestionably, and let's talk about first Enoch. There's three books of Enoch. First, Enok, which is known as the Ethiopian version,

because it was preserved by the Ethiopians. Second Enoch, which is known as the Slavonic version or the Secrets of Enoch. Third Enoch is very much Mercaba, and there's something called Mercaba mysticism or chariot mysticism, which was Second Temple. I guess you might call it an apocalyptic, second temple apocalyptic material that focuses around

that the focus of Mercaba is the throne room of God and sort of heavenly scenes and how that all works and it's all very mystical Mercaba and third Enoch is 100% Mercaba. We actually include all three versions in Enoch just in case people want to want to browse second and third Enoch. But first Enoch is differentiated from second and third Enoch.

because portions of First Enoch are unequivocally, were unequivocally compiled before the birth of Christ. The earliest portions of Enoch are B.C. And that's really important. Which is attested to the Dead Sea Scrolls. That's right. That's right. The Dead Sea Scrolls is proof positive that the earliest portions of Enoch are pre-Christ.

And that's really important because that includes, the Book of Venoch is divided into four sections. I'll try and wrap this really quick, so we can move on. It's divided in four sections. The Book of the Watchers, which is the primary narrative. The book of parables, which is, it's very Christological. There's a lot of messianic, prophetic content in the parables. And the third section is the courses of the heavenly luminaries,

which is, I'd say that's Mercaba influenced, and then the fourth section is called the Dream Visions. And in the latter sections of the Book of Enoch, you have fragments of the Book of Noah, which are inserted. So the Book of Enoch isn't just the Book of Enoch, it's also fragments from the Book of Noah, which I regard, and I don't know if you do as well, Joe,

I regard the Book of Noah as largely mythological. If you read the Book of Noah, I think some of you would probably agree. So it's a very complex document. Now first, the Book of the Watchers and the parables are pre-Christ, are BC manuscripts. Nobody knows exactly when they were written. It is possible, as I said, that the earliest portions might even have been written by the hand of Enoch

and preserved through the flood. Turtulian, the church father, he believed that indeed the earliest portions of Enoch were preserved through the flood, either an oral tradition or not. written forth and recompiled after the flood by Noah. And obviously, I'm sure you're all aware of the fact that there's a lot of controversy around the Book of Enoch, and there's always been controversy. The early church fathers went back and forth on whether or not First Enoch should be included in the canon.

And it's important to mention also that the early church fathers were quoting from a manuscript of First Enoch that we don't have. So there's more somewhere. There's quotations that come from the early church fathers that are attributed to the book of Enoch that you don't find in the Ethiopic version of First Enoch. So that's interesting. There was some other sort of manuscript circulating. We could keep going down that rabbit hole, but I'll pull back from that for now.

and just highlight a couple more things. So, as I said, the Book of the Watchers is the narrative of the Watchers. That's where we get most of our understanding, and I think where the ancient Hebrews garnered much of their understanding in regard to the antediluvian world and the Watchers and the Giants and everything that unfolded up into the flood. And it is very, very intriguing, but even more intriguing than the Book of the World.

watchers are the parables. And I think that the parables of Enoch, in my mind, function as an authentication for at least some of the content. Why? Because it was unquestionably written before Christ, and yet you have some of the most dynamic, precise references to Jesus of Nazareth that you're going to find anywhere. And one after another, for example, I'll give you a quick example. Jesus, out of all the messianic epithets, out of all the messianic titles that he could have used from the Old Testament, the illusions of the Messiah, out of all the symbolism,

but specifically the epithets, the titles that he could have used, the one he used the most to refer to himself was what? son of man and there's only really one place and correct me if I'm wrong there's only really one place from which that can perhaps be derived that title in the Old Testament and that's in the book of Daniel but I don't believe that that's what Jesus is referencing why because in the book of Daniel Daniel says that he saw one who was like a son of man it's not used as a definitive title, as a proper title. Rather, it's used to describe a human being. That's

like saying, I saw someone who looked like a human being. However, in the book of Enoch, you have the definitive title, the son of man. And the prophecies pertaining to that son of man are, I would say, foundational to some of the things that Jesus claimed, some of the things that he was referencing in his discourses, directly making reference to the Book of Enoch, Jesus of Nazareth, making reference to the Book of Enoch, and signaling to the audience that he was that son of man, which is very significant because

it is my opinion that if you were to go into a synagogue in Judea during the first century and you were to have access to all of their scrolls and you would have had more scrolls there than are represented in the 66 books of the Bible, certainly in the synagogue, and obviously none of the New Testament stuff.

So you would have more scrolls than what we have in the old testament. You would have found, in my opinion, you would have found the original manuscript of the book of Enoch in that synagogue. So when Jesus references, when Jesus refers himself as the son of man,

when he designates himself as the son of man, and you understand who the son of man is in the book of Enoch, then you realize, what a big deal. There we go. There we go. That really, that really, that really is.

See, it had to be the sound bite. So the point is that, And I mean, we could go, we could, we could, we could, no, I like that. We could cover a lot of those. I like that a lot, because usually what people will say in the argument in defense of the Book of Enoch is say, oh, Peter and Jude quoted, right? But I mean, if it's coming from Christ himself, it's even more epic and more important to, you know,

we talked about that. We actually pre-recorded an episode on the Book of Enoch. It's going to come out with the book, so we've got, we got to be real in depth on that. But that, that's something that really, you know, hasn't been talked about a lot in circles were in is how much Jesus refers to the book of Enoch, which directly, yeah, which is way more important than just Peter and Jude. Yes, and so much of the doctrine of the New Testament of the apostles is actually based on content from Enoch, not kind of based on content from Enoch,

directly based on content from Enoch. And I want to insert very quickly. It's before I forget, and this may be the last chance to do it. Everybody who was on the VIP, you were supposed to get a signed copy of that book, It's coming. You guys will get the first edition signed copies of that book of Enoch. So I wanted to say that before we forgot. That was part of the deal. And I'm going to pause and let Joel chime in here before we go any further down the Enoch path. Yeah, I think that's really good. Just a couple of quick details on why I mentioned Dead Sea Scrolls. The Cromarion Cave is incredibly important because it attests to the earliest writings and datings of these scrolls.

And when you get into the book of Enoch, it's important to understand what came early, what is the most reliable, what are fragmentary pieces. So if you're looking at actual translations, you'll notice different stylistic inclusions that will let you know, oh, this is easily understandable. This was part of a fragment. So we can kind of make out probably what words should be there. And there are large sections that are inaccessible, or they're. that have been damaged.

And so that first inact, that first section of it, those first two sections of it, we've got the clearest manuscript evidence of that and the largest pieces of evidence for it. And I think that's really important. The other thing, and I want to get into Genesis 6 as well, but since we're on Second Temple literature, I want to affirm and re-emphasize what Tim is talking about here.

Jesus, and it starts with that illustration that I gave when we had first started with MJ versus LeBron, It is intellectually irresponsible of us to assume that the only context that Jesus and the disciples are writing from are within the pages of what we have in the New Testament or the Old Testament. You're like, is that, is he allowed to say that? There's a worldview that they're living in. There's a context. There's a Herod. There's a Rome.

There's a Caesar. There's an empire. There's subjugation. All of these things are present. And so when Jesus and the disciples are talking, they're talking within a particular context that they very well understand, which is why it is incredibly important for us to pause and in humility. Just ask this question, what is there something that I'm possibly missing contextually, right? Here's another one, and this will take us to Genesis 6, and we can dig a little bit deeper into that. And I'll do a little bit on human ruler stuff.

but the other massive quote that Jesus has in the New Testament, Son of Man for sure, the other one is unclean spirits. Where does that Greek phrase unclean spirits come from? It actually comes from Second Temple literature. It comes from Book of Enoch and other writings, animal apocalypse. There's all these other places that that particular phrase shows up. Okay, now think about this. when Jesus talks about unclean spirits, what is he referencing in the New Testament?

What you and I in English would refer to as demons. Okay. The English word demons is horrifically imprecise. Horrifically imprecise. The Greek word diimonion. It is class and category. It is not a specific type. Right?

In the same way that angel, Anglos is a. categorical understanding of a function of a cosmic being, a demon, a diimonian, is a categorical understanding of cosmic types of beings. But this is why the phrase unclean spirits is so important because it gives us the definition, the definitive understanding of what these spirits actually were. So in Second Temple literature, what are unclean spirits? This is where Genesis 6 becomes vitally important. Unclean spirits were referred to as, the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. Whoa.

That now brings exorcism, brings inhabitation, bring all of these things that Jesus is dealing with, even the specific words that come out of these demons, these unclean spirits. I think precision is important. So sometimes I've now refrained from saying demon and I say unclean spirits. This is why when they see Jesus, they freak out.

There's in, I think it's Luke 4, I'm forgetting where Jesus is at the synagogue and he rolls open the scroll. And it's the scene where he encounters an unclean spirit. And in your Bibles it might say there's like an ah, the unclean spirit goes, ah, who are you? You're the son of God, right? Like there's this whole thing, the son of the most high. Divine Council language anyways. The son of the most high. that ah is a Greek participle that is insert bleep it's a cuss word y'all this demon panics it cusses

it's like oh crap we've been found out why would these demons who i think have gone mad because they've been roaming the the earth endlessly since the genesis six historic kind of narrative why is it they have been i think tormented by the reality that judgment is a upon them. Their fathers, their parents are in Tartars. We'll talk about that in Genesis 6, and they have been roaming, roaming, roaming with this anticipation of the coming Messiah, and yet they don't know exactly who the Messiah is going to be. So every time David shows up, think about the war between David and Saul and the exorcism kind of scenes that are happening. Think about all this stuff that's happening. It is an anticipation for when Jesus shows up on the scene,

and these demons panic. They are unclean spirits. Now, what makes a spirit unclean? What makes a spirit unclean? I'm just going to ask that. You want to ask it? You can ask it, then I'll ask it. What makes a spirit unclean?

I'm glad you asked, Nate. That's a good question, eh? Well, it's a big deal. That's what it is. They're not originated from heaven. Why is it in Leviticus, all throughout the... Some of you are reading the Bible in a year, and you've hit Leviticus. I think Leviticus is the great...

of so many Bible readers, right? The bones of many Bible readers are left in the pages of Leviticus. Talk about Moses and the depth end of this book. Leviticus becomes much more significant when we realize that holiness is a serious issue for the people of God. Holiness, purity, sanctification, purification. These are serious things. God holds it serious. The people of God have always been meant to be a holy and set-apart people so that it doesn't stop at the holy and set-apart for no reason. so that we might be a winsome witness for the nations of the world, that they might be drawn into the family of God and see the beauty of God's kingdom. There's a purpose for it.

And in it that we are carefully warned of not defiling ourselves with the world. What are unclean spirits? These unclean spirits are the mixture of two things that were never meant to be mixed together. So let's go tonight, Genesis 6. You've got Genesis 6. you've got the Sons of God, the Beneh alohem. If you're to take, here's just a quick, like, if you're like somebody's trying to debate you,

for the most part, I'm not a fan of debates. Like, if people are trying to debate, I'm like, all right, see you later. Like, I don't, it's just, I don't know. I just get annoyed with debates. But if they're persistent on the debate, here's your ACE card for this one. You say, oh, that's really interesting. You think the Sons of God in Genesis 6 are men or human rulers.

It's really great. Okay, quick question. Every time this phrase, Sons of God is used, who does it attribute to? outside of Genesis 6, Sons of God, in the Old Testament. It's always some type of cosmic beam. These are the same beings that are mentioned in Job,

the sons of God, the morning stars that are shouting for joy before creation. So here's a hermeneutical principle. If the same phrase is being used in the same way, and now you're trying to say that this phrase is being used in a different way in this passage, you better have really good rationale. You need to have lexical connections,

which means word connections. You need to have contextual connections, which means imagery that's being recapitulated throughout the rest of Scripture. You need to have two to four specific ways to really substantiate a human reading. And here's the problem. You don't have any of that for Genesis 6.

There's none of it. Every time it's used, it's used in reference to cosmic beings. Now, the real issue here is how can a cosmic being and a human woman have sex. That's the bottom line. How can they multiply or be fruitful? And some people will be like, well joy, didn't Jesus say that we will be in the new heavens and the earth?

We will be like angels, you know? What did Jesus actually say about that? Did you say that angels don't have sex? What? They're not given to each other in marriage. That leaves some ambiguity a little bit here. Right? And you have the reality of inhabiting. as well. We're not told in the canon of Scripture exactly how this happens, but we are not demanded that it is improbbed that it can't happen. So we're just left with the evidence that's in front of us. So I'm going to keep moving. What is the evidence that's in front of us? That these sons of God,

look at the phraseology, we talked about this in our last session, they see, they desire and they take. I agree with Tim that this is, what's the phrase that you use? You have a, you have a, a really good phrase about it, about lust. Raging lust. This is raging lust. Hot raging lust. Hot raging lust. You put hot in there, I think so.

That's like Nate's footnote. Hot. A couple possible... I think this is all absolutely correct. A couple possibilities. This is my kind of take on it. I actually think what you have here is human trafficking. I think you have sex trafficking and it's origination.

I think that, based off of what we know about the book of Enoch and this exchange of potential goods, that if you give us your women, then we'll give you all these incredible scientific advancements, all of that. I actually think what you have is sex trafficking. And so these men in a patriarchal society are actually forcing their daughters or their women to go into a relationship that they never wanted to be in that relationship in the first place. This is still abuse. This is still abuse. This is taking place. They have these children. These children are called the Nephalim. The Greek handles it. Oh, here's another really important thing.

Tim talked about the Septuagin. Why is the Septuagin so important? The Septuagin is incredibly important because the subtugin, in my opinion, and some other scholars would, I think, many of the scholars would agree, is the first legitimate commentary we have of the Old Testament. The Old Testament Hebrew was translating to the Greek New Testament, because after Alexander of the Great comes into the scene, he takes the Hellenistic worldview, which has Greek, as its primary language and proliferates it across the known world of the time. So here's the thing. Language holds culture and the culture holds meaning. And so Ptolemy around the time is like, yo, this is wild. Like we've got all this Greek everywhere,

but you've got the Hebrew scriptures that are in Hebrew. And at this time, we've got exile, and we've got these soldiers and strangers and they don't have access. Many of them aren't even reading and understanding Hebrew anymore. So he hires 72 scribes Jewish experts of the law to come in to do the translation. A really interesting thing, the subtugent, the Roman numerals or LXX, it actually comes out to 70. Big question, where did the other two go? I think they slept in the day that it was being titled, you know, so sorry for those two guys. But you got 72. And so it instantly, when you translate from one source language into another language, you're translating. There is very rarely a one-for-one word equivalent. So,

all this for a purpose. The Septuagin is vitally important because it gives us the first inclination as early as we can really get to what these scholars actually thought the original Hebrew meant. So two important places. I'll telegraph it for the next session. One is Durhamy 32, 8, and 9, the Dead Sea Scrolls actually give us what the original manuscripts actually said. And then two, the Sons of God, the Nephilim, the Septuagin actually goes and says these are angels, These are Anglos. Again, categorical term, not individual person, personality. Now, with that being said, you've got these Nephalim, and then the text is explicit in Genesis 6. With the presence of the Nephilim and the outcome, but the Book of Inak lets us know, with all of the scientific and pharmacaeo, pharmaceutical, all of this information, does good increase in the world or evil?

Evil. Evil. This is where we get the Raphaim. This is where we get these giant kings. This is where we get these unholy alliances that take place. And as evil continually increases, Yahweh steps in and goes, we can't have this. This is going to decimate my holy set-apart creation. And God is not a loser. He's a winner. So he's like, all right, I'll step in and I'll handle it. And that is the backup of the flood. I want to back up real quick and return to Enoch for a minute.

and then I'm going to fast forward, and I'm actually going to push back a little bit on something that Jill said, and we'll get into an interesting conversation. I love when Tim pushes back. Thence forward. I wanted to give you a sample of, just so you understand when we talk about First Enoch

and how critical it was, how critical it is, not only into understanding the context of Genesis 6, but also how foundational it is to the doctrines of the apostles of Christ, when they're writing the New Testament, and to the claims of Jesus of Nazareth, central to the claims of Jesus of Nazareth.

This is a, I'm going to read here the excerpt from Daniel, from which scholars who don't want to attribute anything to Enoch in regard to Christ's claims or the doctrines of the New Testament, and it's not usually scholars, it's actually theologians who do this, will use this text as the basis for Jesus using the epithet, Son of Man, for himself more than any other title. Okay, this is from Daniel. I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a son of man. And he came to the ancient of days and was presented before him.

And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people's nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. Now, I'm going to read an excerpt from the book of Enoch, specifically from the parables of Enoch, from which I believe that Daniel's excerpt is actually derived, not directly, but inspired. Here's 1st Enoch. And at that hour, that son of man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits and his name before the head of days or ancient of days. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created before the stars of the heaven were made. His name was named before the Lord of spirits.

He shall be a staff to the righteous. whereon to stay themselves and not fall. And he shall be the light of the Gentiles or nations. And the hope of those who are troubled in heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits. And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before him before the creation of the world and forevermore.

and the wisdom of the Lord of Spares hath revealed him to the holy and righteous. For he hath preserved a lot of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits. For in His name they are saved. And according to his good pleasure, hath abed in regard. to their life. Now that may have, I want you to consider this for a moment, and we're going to go right back to Genesis 6.

And really, this is, this is, these concepts are integrated into Genesis 6 to some extent. Now consider that, and there's a whole lot more of those in the book of parables. Consider for a moment those words being penned by the hand of Enoch,

the seventh from Adam. in the anti-deluvian world. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out.

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It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice.

Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak. And get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great, till the CFO sees them, that's bull's bend. And marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard, Confessions. I remember telling my boss.

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We are getting a presage. We are getting a, a, a, prophetic vision of Jesus of Nazareth and what he was going to do. And there's a lot more of those in the book of Enok, and I won't go through them. I have them in the introduction to our book of Enac. But the point is that so much of what Jesus said and what the Apostles written has a foundation in the book of Enok. So again, I would say that the parables of Enoch are the authentic

that's, now hear me very clearly, some of First Enoch is what I would say, and I would go so far as to say this, and I would agree with Tertullian, by the way, some of First Enoch is in fact inspired. So now fast-forwarding to Genesis 6, in the book of Watchers, we have this epic narrative that unfolds,

which corresponds to Genesis 6, in which we find this is the beginning. This is the beginning scene of both Genesis 6. And Genesis 6 doesn't really, it doesn't unpack anything. And by the way, that's a very important point. Why does Genesis, why does the author of Genesis not expound? Give a detail to account.

On this bizarre reference, this what would appear to be a strange, a peculiar digression in the Genesis narrative. Oh, the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful, blah, blah, blah. And he doesn't, he's just a quick little insert, right? Why does he do that? Because the story was thoroughly chronicled elsewhere.

He doesn't need to repeat the whole thing because it's already well known. So there's a manuscript out there that the oral tradition or both, probably both, that the writer of Genesis is not going into detail because it's well known. And everybody knows the story. and where it's written.

And I would contend it's written in the book of Enok. And whatever that was called at the time. We don't know if that was the name of the manuscript at the time. So this peculiar digression in Genesis is expanded in Enoch, and we find the opening scene of the story. And what is the opening scene? It's exactly what Joel was saying. It's watchers.

who are on the verge of really what amounts to insurrection against the kingdom of heaven. What's motivating them to do what they're about to do? And they know what they're about to do is, is, I don't want to use it. We're big deal. They know, they know that what they're about to do, that there's going to be potential ramifications here.

That's why, before they go and do this thing, they say, let us bind ourselves by mutual infrications. In other words, we're going to take an oath and we're all going to bear the guilt for this great sin. They knew exactly, they knew precisely that what they were about to do was an infraction against the kingdom of heaven and was going to incur the wrath of God, potentially. At the very least, potentially there would be grave consequences. And so they decide to bind themselves by mutual infrications, and they do so on the summit of Hermon.

But before they get to Hermon, which, by the way, is called the Mountain of Oath. Before they get to Hermon, there's something happens. This is what I call it. This is the first cause, what I refer to as the first cause of the sin of the watchers, of the fall of the watchers. And I guess before we go any further, we should probably just spend a couple minutes talking about what watchers are. Where do we get this terminology?

Well, we have to go back to the book of Daniel. Because some people, when they hear the term watchers, they don't realize, they think, oh, that's a weird, extra-biblical denomination. It's not. Because we have a fascinating scene that unfolds in the book of Daniel that uses the same terminology. And this is when King Nebuchadnezzar,

the haughty king of Babylon, is being judged by who? Who's judging the king of Babylon? The holy watchers are judging the king of Babylon. And there's this amazing scene that unfolds in which the watchers through Daniel. And very much like the watchers through Enoch in the book of Enoch, but Daniel's the intermediary here in this scene. The watchers are judging Nebuchadnezzar.

And it's really amazing because this is a, divine counsel seen, and it's the holy watchers of heaven, our passing judgment on Nebuchadnezzar, and you'll recall that they sentence him to have the mind of a beast for what is it three years or three and a half years, whatever it is, and he eats grass, and he's basically mad, loses his mind, and this is by the judgment and decree of the watchers, right? So when we say watchers, I think a lot of people, have a negative connotation to the term. No, that's incorrect.

First, we should have a very positive, it carries a very positive and holy connotation, watcher. So that's a good reference for us because this is not some, this is not some demonic serpentine, devilish group of beings. No, these are holy watchers who are about to do this thing. And that's why it's so, that's why it's so consequential.

These are the holy ones who are about to go against the king. And what is the first cause? The catalyst, lust. It's in the book of Genesis and it's in the book of Enoch. The first catalyst, the first cause is lust. They're looking at the daughters of men that they're comely or fair or beautiful, and they're desiring them. Exactly. They're desiring them sexually.

Now, when I started to really digest this many years ago, it was like I had to slam on the brakes in my mind. Wait a minute. And first started with Genesis 6, and I remember reading the book of Enoch in a Barnes and Nobles. No, not Barnes and Noble. The other one that went up is Borders. In Borders, as a teenager, reading the book of Enoch sitting there in borders, and this just, and I borrow a phrase from the late Christopher Hitchens, this rearranged the furniture in my brain, the theological furniture in my brain.

It totally rearranged it because, wait a minute, the watchers of heaven are lusting, after human females? That's how this whole thing begins. They're lusting, but they're not just lusting. They're not just filled with this uncontrollable sexual desire. No, they actually concoct a plan. Because they're not, and Joel alluded to this yesterday, it's not just lust, that's the first cause.

They lusted after the daughters of men, and they wanted to procreate. They wanted children, offspring. So I think that there are three primary motivations to the fall of the watchers. Number one is lust. Number two is they saw how the union between a man and a woman was producing offspring, this amazing gift of God

that we can replicate ourselves through our offspring, that we can have families, which is a model, by the way. It's a reflection of God's family, right? It's really a sacred thing that are families. And that's why I think the enemy spent so much of us time trying to destroy families. So they're looking at these beautiful women and they're watching how the sons of Adam

take wives and the celebrations and the joy And then the children, the offspring that come forth from this union, they're desiring that as well. They want that. And then I would say third, and this one, the first two are explicit, the third is implicit. The third motivation is dominion of the earth. So first, they're lusting after the women. Second, they want to marry them. And this is where we might disagree.

They want to marry them because they're not just looking for sexual intercourse. They're looking for families. They want to procreate and progenerate offspring. But what kind of offspring come out of those women? Halfbridge. Hybrid giants. Hybrid giants. So I believe that the watchers knew exactly what they were going to do.

They were going to produce, they were going to produce. hybrid offsprings, human hybrid children, sons, who were gigantic in stature so that they could dominate the sons of Adam, but yet who were human enough so that they might inherit the birthright of Adam legally. I believe there's something very cunning going on here. And this is why I believe, and again,

Again, we can discuss this further, but this is why I believe that it wasn't rape. I think that women were willing partners in this transaction for two reasons. Number one, because the watchers, in my estimation, and I go through this in my book, for those who've read my book, are members of the elder race. And the elder race are, again, it's my opinion, that the elder race are exceedingly, handsome. They look like probably young men in their 20s or 30s. They're probably very tall, beautiful beings, and they look like Nate. Is that we go? I'll say Zach Ephron. And I think they would be blonde or golden blonde or in some cases strawberry blonde.

Exotic. Exotic and save. And so these are not grotesque, in my opinion. These are not grotesque reptilian freaks. These are the gods descending to the earth. And probably six and a half feet tall, right, like Fabio's, basically, descending to the earth. And I believe, and this is a stretch perhaps, Joel, and I admit that this is a stretch. But I have some, a little bit of extra-biblical text that suggests this. But it's my opinion that it was probably more likely the daughters of Kane who were marrying the watch.

I can't give you too much source material for that, but it's a feeling I have. It's probably the daughters of Kane in my mind. And there is some extra-biblical indication of that. So the watchers are coming down. Now, they have a plan to try and effectuate this scheme legally. They want to do this in a way if they can evade the judgment of God. They're going to try to evade the judgment of God here and do everything legally. So, and this is going to, this bears upon how I view Deuteronomy 32, which we won't get into,

because Joel is going to cover that thoroughly. Because I believe that, and I say I believe it, I can say this confidently. Dominion of planet Earth was given to Adam and his offspring forever. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. It was given to Adam and his offspring forever. God didn't say, go out and take dominion and wrestle it. He said, have dominion. He bequeathed to Adam, the deed of planet Earth.

And by the way, we see that deed show up in the book of Revelation. The scroll with the seals. Who is worthy to take the scroll and break its seals? That's a whole other thing. But it ties directly into this concept of dominion. So Adam and his offspring are given dominion. That's the birthright of mankind. We govern the earth.

We are the regents of the king on planet Earth. even though there are other entities in play who are more intelligent, who are more powerful than we are, who have more remarkable capabilities than we do. We have been given the deed of the earth, and we govern it. And it's not, the dominion of the earth doesn't belong to the righteous. It's given to the offspring of Adam, good, bad, or indifferent. Now, God reserves the right, and this is made plain,

especially in the scene I just talked about with Nebuchadnezzar, God reserves the right to enthrone or dethrone any ruler at any time. That is the prerogative of the king. We are not the king. We are the regents of the king. We govern at his good pleasure. And we are supposed to govern according to his kingdom and his precepts. And we've made a mess of it, right?

That was supposed to be the order of things. So God allows us to have bad rulers and so forth, and this is kind of a different topic. But the point is that dominion of the earth was given bequeathed to Adam and his offspring, and the watchers knew it. And so if they were to make a direct infraction into man's domain, a hostile takeover, what would have happened? There's armies in heaven for a reason. They don't stand idly by.

The hosts of heaven, this army we talk about, this standing army in the kingdom of heaven, isn't just a set piece in the biblical narrative. It's an army, and it enforces the will of the king in the universe. And so if there's an infraction, a hostile attack on planet Earth against the sons of Adam, then the armies of heaven will defend us and defend our authority. Because without that, without the backing of the kingdom of heaven, our authority means nothing. Nothing.

Very quickly, if I am a king and I have an empire and I dispatch a servant, if I dispatch someone who I'm going to elect as a governor for a far away distant territory, and I send that governor, and this is, and I'm talking about in an ancient context, and I send that governor to govern in that territory in my name with my authority, he can't show up empty-handed, number one. He has to go with something very specific. What does he go with? He goes with a signet seal.

He takes my seal of authority with him. So that when he shows up and he says, the king sent me, he shows the signet, whatever that is. What was the signet, usually? The signet seal. It was usually a ring that was pressed into a softened wax or resin. And it more often than not bore what? The image of the king. More often than not.

It would have a profile or the face of the monarch. And so that vice regent who is going to rule and govern in a sector of my kingdom is showing up to those people. and the mark, the seal of his authority, he's carrying the seal, which bears the king's likeness. That's the image of God. So if that guy shows up, if my governor shows up without that seal, he has no authority. No one will believe him, number one. Number two, if he shows up and he has the seal, but he doesn't have the backing of my army, he has nothing.

He has no authority. but if he shows up with the seal by my authority then if the people rise up against him or if there's a foreign army that tries to invade what happens my armies are coming my armies are coming and and everyone knows it because he has my authority that's Adam and that's us on planet earth

the reason why this place isn't just overrun taken over by more intelligent beings. The devil and his angels, for example, and a direct assault dethroning all the kings of the earth is precisely because the armies of heaven enforce our authority. So the reason, and I'll wrap this up and then turn it over to you guys, but the reason I wanted, before you ask you, the reason I wanted to say this was because

in order for the watchers to make this incursion into our realm. Our realm, make this incursion to our realm without triggering the armies of heaven and immediate judgment is they were doing it to some extent legally. They were going to make a transaction with the governors of the earth. And they were going to, through this transaction, they were going to surreptitiously take over through their hybrid offspring. Well, I guess a couple questions or thoughts, maybe. Can I respond really quick to the C intake? Is that okay?

Yeah. I think Tim and I are saying very similar things. We're getting to the end result in two different places. I actually ended up writing a little bit about this of why I do think, this is my defense for why I think the C and take language of Genesis 6 is in fact rape, that it is, in fact, violence against women. Let me give a couple background thoughts. One is that in the ancient near eastern world, it's a patriarchal society.

I agree with him. This is actually a legal issue. I actually wholeheartedly agree with that. The normative understanding in this time period, again, accommodation, God's working through time and space, is the women aren't making their own transaction rights. They're passive participants in whatever the patriarchal society they're being levered. This is horrific. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying this is what we have evidence of,

that they are, in fact, many times unwilling, reluctant victims of being utilized as bargaining tools and chips in order to get whatever the patriarchal society want. Think of Jacob and Laban. Right? This is going to come in very important. I wrote this, so let me just do it because it's going to be way easier than me trying to speculate or just bring it from my memory. So typically conversations around Genesis 6 focus on the famed cosmic beings, the sons of God, and the children that are produced as a result of their union with human women, the Gibberim, who are warriors of renown and are associated with the Nephilim. Now, one thing that is often overlooked is that the supernatural beings are actually engaging, and this is what I think is important, violent acts against this women.

Side note, I think this is why God cares. God is a good God who does not want his children, including his daughters, to be misused and abused. So, in fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the language has overtones of forced intimacy or, in other words, rape. Let's look at the text. So, and I'm doing a little bit of Hebrew here. So Genesis 6.2, the sons of God saw Rahah, that the daughters of man were beautiful, and they took Lakha, any they chose as wise for themselves. The language of saw and took is repeated elsewhere with the same Hebrew words, which creates a pattern that we should be keenly aware of. What we see is beautiful and take because we believe it should be ours always has tragic consequences.

When we were never intended to experience those things in the first place. So let's look at the pattern. Genesis 3-6, the woman Samad-Eev saw Rahah that the tree was good for food and delighted to look at it and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom. so she took Lakha some of its fruit and ate of it. Genesis 342, very important one. When Shechem, son of Hamor, the Hivite, who was the regent's chieftain, saw Rahah, her, one of Abram's daughters,

he took Lachah, her, and raped her. In 2nd Samuel 11, we found the same pattern with King David. David saw Rahah, Bathsheba, and then took Laqa her. As a result, David has Uriah killed. So this shows us that the sons of God in Genesis 6, seeing and taking human women is likely connected to violence against them. The result of this union is the Nephilim which perpetuates violence and sends the world into deeper chaos and evil. This is the background or the origin story that necessitates the flood. A footnote or a caption that I would make in that is it very well could be that these women are willing but reluctant.

I would make the argument that willing but reluctant, this is more an ethics issue, willing, theological ethics issue, willing but reluctant, does not diminish the fact that this is forced and inactive rate. There's a problem, though. What's that? Yeah, same thing.

Well, here's the problem. The book of Enoch, in the book of Enoch we have, in the, when the judgment is passed down in the watchers, who's included in the judge? judgment. The offspring, the Nephilim, and the Watchers' wives. The Watchers' wives are judged very severely. In fact, the Book of Enoch says that they're turned into sirens. But the point is that the women bear the guilt. They bear the guilt of the Watcher's sin. So if these women were taken by force, then why would they bear the guilt?

I think they were willing participants. Perhaps, as you see, said, we have a middle ground here that we can agree on. Perhaps at first they weren't. Perhaps it was against their will. Yeah, this is a good point. And then over time, because in the book of Vianak, it says that the watchers taught their wives and their children the secrets of heaven.

And so maybe the women were ultimately beguiled by the knowledge of the watchers and so forth. So that's potentially middle ground. But something I think we're agreeing on here, and this is the essential point, there was a transaction. Yeah. There was a transaction. And that transaction is pivotal because I think there's going to be another,

and there is another transaction happening in our day, and there's coming other transactions that are in this vein. There was a transaction. The transaction was, remember the watchers descend, they take the oath on the mountain of oath, Mount Hermon. They descend into the plains below, and they begin to choose for themselves wise from the daughters of men. Now, each one chose for himself, one, one wife, which I think is also indicative of the desire to have a union with one woman to create a family.

So they're not just looking for a good time on earth. They're very specific. They're choosing a woman who, A, is beautiful and B in their mind might be a fit childbearer for what they're about to do, right? So they choose these women. and then I don't see it as they're breaking open the huts and grabbing the women and throw them over their shoulders and walking away with them. No, I think they're looking through the communities. Imagine, and this is something really cool that Nate's been doing is generating these images of watchers,

and it's very atypical to what most people think. It's what we describe, tall, young, blonde, handsome men. Imagine them walking in robes, perhaps white robes, walking around, observing, observing the, activities of the daughters of Adam and Eve and choosing for themselves. I want that one. I want that. And then what do they do? Joel's exactly right.

What do they do? They can't go up to that woman and say, will you marry me? That's not all the ancient world worked. Instead, they went to the father. Will you give me your daughter's hand in marriage? And it was the father who had the authority. It was a dowry system. The father had the authority over his daughters,

and he could give them in exchange for whatever. he wanted. And so this is the way I see it. So they're looking and they're choosing, and then they're going to the fathers. And the fathers want something in return. And we know what they want, because the Book of VNAC tells us. The watchers taught them the knowledge. They were what? Striving to learn. So here we have a transaction. Okay. All right, these group 200 watchers, They've chosen their women. They've gone to the fathers. And this wouldn't be a private thing.

This would probably be a collective meeting. It's communal. Yeah, the sons of God have descended. The gods have come. And they've chosen these women. Well, I think Genesis 6 to me is always on the show been a bigger version of Eden, right? So I think, I've maybe a middle ground

between both of your guys's ideas. I think more the watchers' war were basically taught or told by somebody. else. I think that if the serpent is more cunning, he's a chess player, he sacrifices his players to get where he wants on the board. They seem to have been watching women for a while, and I wonder if they were, hey, you see that? Go get it. But he knows that their offspring, what's going to happen? Because he's the most cunning, right? He's smarter than that. Because it seems as though they just had this moment where they just weren't thinking clearly

and they went down. I don't know if they knew their children would be giants. I don't know if they knew that they would... The women? The watchers. I don't know if they knew, like... And here's the question I really want to ask, who knows that Christ is coming?

Do the watchers know that Christ is coming? Or is it just Satan in the garden that knows? I think it's encrypted. So I think in Genesis 3, it's referred to as the proto-e-angelion, the first glimmer of the gospel, that when the consequences are being handed out, to Eve and to the serpent that, you know, it's the famous passage.

We all know that the serpent is going to strike the heel, but the heel is going to crush the head. And there's this question of the seed. In Hebrew here, it's a flipping between singular seed and plural seed. When it talks about the Messiah, it's singular seed. But when it's talking about the household of the enemy, it's plural. It's a very fascinating concept. So I think that these enemies have some understanding that something's happening,

but they don't have full, they don't have security clearance. Well, there's actually in the book of Enoch, chapter 54, there's actually an indication in this, you know, at least in second temple, in the second temple, from the second temple perspective, there's actually some indication that what you're saying is true. Chapter 54 of First Enoch, there's a, Enoch sees this vision of angels

being bound in iron chains of immeasurable weight. Right, and these chains are being prepared for who. He said, for whom are these chains being prepared? And he said, the angel said unto Enoch, these are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, who is one of the angels in the company of watchers, so that they may take them and cast them in the abyss of complete condemnation, blah, blah, blah. Then it says this, and Michael and Gabriel and Raphael and Fanuel,

shall take hold of them on that great day and cast them on that day into the burning furnace. Now, isn't that reminiscent of someone else who's going to be chained and cast into a burning furnace? Then it says this. the Lord of the Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness, the Watchers, in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth. So there's actually an indication within the Book of Enoch,

at least from the perspective of Second Temple thinkers, that Satan led astray the watchers and that their fate is now going to be his fate their fate is going to be what his fate is, which is to be bound and changed and cast into the abyss of burning fire. So I think there is some indication that you're on to something. And if we're to follow that timeline, Nate, from a chronological standpoint and connect some dots from yesterday with the Rahab deal. So if Rahab is an origin story, regardless of if you take it planetary or not, if it is potentially the origin story of the serpent falling to Earth, that sets in motion a historical trajectory of this being, this cosmic being antithetical to Yahweh being

present in some form and some fashion on the earth in order to build his team. He's building his team. So you've got the first scene of rebellion, you've got the second scene of rebellion with Genesis 6, and then in a couple sessions we're going to talk about what I think is the third and final scene of rebellion, which is the Genesis 11 and Dut Army 32, 8 to 9 event. A last thing. detail on the watchers thing that I think is really important of the ambition of the watchers. One, I personally believe that the watchers are in the same taxonomy, the same category. We talk to divine counsel as the sons of God. I think these are synonymous, that the watchers are high-ranking supernatural beings.

They're synonymous with the sons of God, which then brings coherence to the Daniel passage that these watchers, these holy ones, the Kedoshim, are bringing judgment on the king of Babylon. Think about that. It's the king of Babylon. Keep them in the back of your mind for this next conversation. we have on Durham 32, 8 through 9. But one of the things that the watchers do in this exchange of trades

is they're so deceptive, y'all, that they give to humanity, what humanity believes, will be fruitful and profitable for them, but all it does is sets them into a downward spiral of total chaos and destruction. For instance, why would the watchers at this point in time give them the knowledge of metallurgy in order to create swords? swords have one definitive purpose that's to kill, to take life.

That was Azazil. Yes. And that's why he's judged most harshly. Yes. Because it seems that he injected into the world the murderous bloodlust that had not previously existed. Which precipitates the flood. That's right. Yeah.

So go ahead. Well, I just think that, you know, if there is, you know, the traditional Satan view, if he is the most cunning and he's the god of chaos, then he's going to be thinking, you know, long-term, all these plans put into motion, create more and more chaos, you know. But it's going to be very subtle, I think, and then it turns to this much more bigger deal in terms of more chaos spreads.

And I don't know. I mean, I feel like it depends on what rank the watchers are, you know, how important are they, in the Divine Council. Are they, you know, freshmen in heaven? They're not freshmen. Or are they seniors? You know, you would say these are like the princes. These are the princes. Yeah. And I would absolutely agree. My view, these are the princes. These are the Sarim. That's right. The Sharram. This is when we get into Divine,

Gerroman 32, 8 and 9 worldview. We'll talk about Daniel 8, 9, and 10 and the princes. All of these language, these terms are synonymous with each other, which then connects to the New Testament in Paul's language, Tim's talked about this, of ruler authority, principality, powers, Therone's, Thronei, these are all ruling, they actually have militaristic backgrounds in the Greco-Roman world. These are ruling titles, titles of rulers. A ruler that has no jurisdiction to rule, by definition, isn't a ruler. And where's the one place they didn't have jurisdiction to rule? On earth. That was given to Adam.

And by the way, and we only have 15 minutes left. Do you questions? Well, no, actually, I would like to finish the narrative. For those who maybe are unfamiliar with it. So the watchers, they take these women. I think there's a huge celebration of wedding scene, and we depict some of this in our Enoch book. I mean, imagine the celebration.

The gods have descended to marry your daughters. they're going to teach you, they're going to give you the knowledge that you've been striving to learn in exchange for the daughters. But it was a Faustian bargain because the men didn't realize that the fruit of the womb

of their daughters would be giants who would ultimately turn to devour them. It was a Faustian bargain. And that's why I believe the objective was dominion of the earth. Now the watchers themselves do not have authority to take dominion from Adam. But their hybrid sons do,

because they are, in my estimation, human enough to inherit the birthright of Adam. They're human hybrids. And they do just that. I believe they subject... Now, I'm going to... I'm going to launch into a realm of speculation, and I'm launching off into the distance of the story

because the narrative of Enoch doesn't really tell us a whole lot more. It really ends quite abruptly. In fact, it's frustrating because the narrative ends, and you get all this symbolic stuff and visions of this and that, and the narrative just sort of comes to an end. It doesn't even actually get to the flood in the book of the Watchers. You don't even get to the flood.

You just get to the judgment of the watchers, and they're judged, and we'll get to that in a minute. But what I think happens, so again, this is now Tim, extrapolating forward the story. We know, according to Enoch, that the watchers, I'd rather that their hybrid offspring, who are giants, turn on men, and they begin to devour all the acquisitions of the land. In other words, all of the toil of mankind is now going to shovel food into the Nephilim's mouth, basically. There's 200 watchers. So take 200 watchers. Each of them has a fertile wife who is producing offspring. So you have hundreds.

and hundreds of giants walking the earth. And these giants become dominant because the human beings are spending all of their energy to feed them so much so that when they can no longer sustain their enormous appetites, the giants turn and begin to devour men. Now, I don't believe that these are big, dumb giants, you know, the Disney giants, the clubs,

and just eating human beings in a chaotic fashion. I envision something else happening here. Remember the watchers, the gods are on earth. So this is a very unique period in time in which the gods are walking openly among men and their offspring are on the earth with them. And I believe their design is to rule the earth from behind the thrones of their hybrid children,

their hybrid sons and do so legally. And because that's, that's, it's what I call rule by, proxy they don't have the authority themselves but they can extend this they can extend their their their their governance of the earth through their hybrid offspring who do have authority because of the birthright of Adam so the high the giants are subjugating mankind and I what I envision and again this is just me extrapolating the story I envision a scenario in which human sacrifice

has initiated That this is a ritualistic procedure, that there's a quota of human flesh that has to be brought and sacrificed for the consumption of the offspring of the gods. Why do I think this is the initiation of human sacrifice? Because in all of these pagan traditions, the gods are bloodthirsty. And they reenact this very thing. Do they not? The Aztec, reenact this very thing. Highly despicable to Yahweh.

Yes. And it's abominable. The Canaanites reenacted this very thing by feeding their children, by placing their children under the searing idol. And in some cases, they would go down into the belly of the aisle. Their babies screaming being consumed by the flames. This is a reenactment of something that happened in the world before the flood. And I think it's a reenactment of the ritual of giants. devouring a quota of human flesh to sustain their appetites because the human beings could not

satisfy them with the acquisitions from the land, with their toil and with their harvesting and with their livestock and so forth, although they weren't eating flesh, and that's the whole other thing, they weren't eating flesh, and the giants began to eat flesh, and that's why it says that they sinned against the animals, and then under that it says they were devouring flesh. So the giants were against the prohibition of eating flesh. The giants began to devour flesh. Makes sense of the Levitical Law of Flesh. That's right.

A couple, just, you know, I don't get to speculate much in scholarship, so I'm going to do some speculation. You can speculate? As much as you want in this room. You're giving me encouragement to speculate. Let me just a couple speculative things I think actually rooted in high plausibility to build a bit more even on what Tim is saying. I think that these watchers take up residence on various mountains on the earth,

and they build their own types of pantheons. And I think each of them probably have their own cosmic, their own kind of cosmic councils, counterfeit councils that they have created. Because, again, if they're militaristic, if you think of some of the best armies and militaries out there, This is the whole idea of the Spartans, the 300 Spartans, like you've got King Leonidas and you've got his 300, and they're special elite soldiers that are trained in a specific way. So I think there is some type of even unholy allegiance with some of these lesser divine beings that have made connections. I also truly, truly do think, speculatively, these are all of our origin stories of Hercules and Gilgamesh and how do you get demigods? How do you get these narratives that are flowing across civilizations, across societies, across time, without any means of corroboration?

There's no way for them to be like, hey, y'all over there in China, you do this, y'all in India, you do this, y'all in Greece, you all do this. They just don't have a way to do it. So there's got to be a form, a means or a method of corroborating this type of source story. And I think the source story is actually the watchers, but I think the watchers are a bit arrogant. This is why they're different in different places, because they're not trying to rip off what the other person did. They're trying to experience their own unique identity, their own unique source story, their own unique thing. I'm debating, well, they're not even, I should say this, but... Luke, don't put this on social media.

I think the myth of werewolves and vampires, devouring flesh, has to come from somewhere. Where does it come from? I don't know. Actually, I think I do. Yeah, can't be live on Instagram. Cannibalism. The Murphal. Inside joke.

Yeah, I love it. I mean, I think, no matter what, I mean, it's a demon. It's a demon. You know, I think that we've talked a lot about Genesis 6, and I think maybe, are we, I don't know if we have enough time to wrap up this up, but it wasn't just humans. Seems as though it's spread everywhere to everything else. Let's just go ahead.

Let's just go ahead and tell them. I think I'm going to tell them. I don't think that, should I say this? I'm going to say it. I don't think that the flood was universal. Get out of here. Oh, why did I do this? I'm sweating.

I think there's very, very good evidence for the flood to be a localized. hear my words here precisely before you get very mad at me localized but not universal i think that and if you look at this idea of a deluge that's happening across the world that you can have the presence of localized floods in many places across the world that has the same catastrophic impact that leaves room for how in the world are there still Raphaim, Anakim, and this giant issue after the flood.

The remnants of these beings that are still out there. So I think that... And I think we talked about this at the Airbnb because you brought up some good points. I hadn't really considered that God still has to preserve certain parts of the ecosystem.

Things have to, you know, the whole world is flooded. I don't know where I fall on this, but freshwater water fish was another idea. How does that happen? And other things, and what did they come? Underwater eco, like, if you've got

an aquatic realm, what's going to happen to the underwater, like, it's a shock. It's a shock to the entire system. And people come up with some really bizarre, I mean, Luke and I have heard some pretty bizarre stuff of how do the giants come back? And it gets really weird.

And that would kind of make sense that, you know, it's mostly dealt with, but somehow they survive. And that phrase, the flood covered the whole earth. You're probably like, wait a minute, Joel, the Bible says, the flood covered the whole earth, every mountain top. That phrase is a phrase that's used of the known world of the time. So you could say it covered the whole earth, and the whole earth could just be, well, what you know of, what you conceptualize. And you actually find evidence of that all over the

place. There's actually a Babylonian text that talks about Babylon being like the only nation in the world. Well, clearly, obviously, Babylon is not the only nation in the world. It is hyperbole. It is a kind of a type of exaggeration that's taking place. And I think another good point that we talked about was how do the flood myths then get preserved in each culture? Yeah. If they were completely wiped out, they wouldn't have any memory of that. Well, I agree with Joel.

I actually hold a very similar position, if not the very same. I think, and most of you probably know, I subscribe, currently subscribe, to the Younger Dryness Impact hypothesis. I think that sometime around 10,000 BC, we have this catastrophic event in which a comet breaks up in our atmosphere and pummels the earth, specifically the Laurentide Ice Sheet, North America. And you're talking about mile to two mile high ice sheet, and it causes massive flooding. Most of North America is instantly flooded, but also it causes wildfires. There's a word for that I can't, I don't remember the scientific term, because we're not just talking about a small wildfire,

we're talking about continents on fire. And it causes flooding, and it causes all kinds of catastrophic things to unfold on earth. It's a civilization-ending event. It's an extinction event that happens. And one of the most catastrophic results is the flooding. So if you're living on a river, and civilization was concentrated, for the most part, on rivers and on the coastal regions. And so those regions are obliterated, 100% gone obliterated because of the flooding. Unless you got a big old boat.

Unless you got a big old boat, that's right. So I view it as a global cataclysm and that there was global flooding. and that the entire Earth was affected and that it was a near extinction event. But not every single mountain on the planet was underwater. And there's a lot of nuance there. And by the way, there are many scholars who would hold that position. This is not like some sort of a radical position. It's pretty prominent, actually.

It's pretty prominent. It's probably 50-50 at this point, scholars. and I don't know that. I'm just throwing that out there. But from what I've seen, it's, it's probably a little more like 60, 40 that would hold to localize. 63, 63. 61 and a half. Luke, what do you think? Luke, what do you?

Yeah. Yeah, Luke. Are you about to pull the plug on us? Luke's like, what? No, I mean, somebody has. Somebody has to. I kind of blacked out after Tim said as a teenager, he used to go to Borders and Ray Enoch. And so I'm imagining, imagining, imagining, imagining there.

All the other teenagers are reading, like, twice. and vampire galleries and Tim's there like, dude, I'm breathing Enoch. And I had dreadlocks. And he had dread? Yeah, you had dreads? We got pictures? Oh yeah. Sorry, I'm sorry, cloak.

It's not a cape, it's a cloak. The cloak came later, Luke. No, I just, I love that, I love that about, about Tim. I can, I can, it's nothing about that surprising. But I know we are at the end here, so sometimes I have to keep things on the rails with, with Lordy Creatures in general. Just make sure we get our time. Let it go. Just let it go. I know this is we're bleeding over right now.

So I don't know, you know, not being in the room if we want to do a quick couple questions or if we want to kick off the next session with questions or how you guys want to do that. I would like to. We're kind of at our time here. If I get two more minutes, I want to finish the two minutes to finish the narrative.

That's 10. That's 10 minutes. Two more hours. Give me two more days. I need two more days. Timmer won't work for him. Time of one work. We call it tin time.

I think it's really important. I think it's really important. We've gone so far. It would just be a shame. It would just be a shame without completing the narrative. And just give me two minutes. Here we go. So we're all familiar with Atlantis.

We're all familiar with Plato's Akhen of Atlantis. We're all familiar with the Greek mythology. And what happens in the beginning, the gods, the Greek gods come and they look at the earth. And what do they do? They apportioned the earth amongst them. themselves. Each God takes, and again, Greek mythology, each God takes a portion of the earth for himself, and he does what? In many of the cases, if not in all of them, he marries a human

being. Let's be specific, Zut, rather Poseidon. Poseidon takes for his allotment, he takes the island of Atlantis, or the region of what would become Atlantis, and what does he do? He becomes enamored of a human woman. He copulates with her. She gives birth to 10, to five sets of twin sons who there are very strong indications that those sons are giants, including among them is Atlas, who's the leader of the king of the giants, what I would consider giant kings. And then what happens? And this is not just happening with Poseidon.

All the gods are going to their respective realms, and they're building, Poseidon builds Atlantis. He raises this kingdom, and his hybrid offspring are governing. Not him. his hybrid offspring are governing in his realm. And what happens? Over here you have Athena. Athena does the same thing.

Athena chooses her area, her allotment, which is over in Athens, and she builds this civilization, and she has her people, who are the Athenians. And then what happens, according to the Greek mythology, their kingdoms go to war. They go to war. This is the legend of Atlantis. And the Atlanteans, they were so few. that nobody could withstand them, and they were just steamrolling all of their neighbors

until they encountered the Athenians. And they were locked in this conflict, and I believe that, and there's even indications from Plato, that the Atlanteans were a very advanced civilization, and there's a lot of reasons to believe that in the Greek mythologies. And so you probably have these high-tech civilizations. High-tech, they would have had a different technological stream than we have today. so you're not talking about combustion, you're not talking about cell phones and laptops. It's a different stream of technology.

We don't have time to talk about that today, maybe tomorrow. And they're going to war with one another. Way to bring in a distraction, Luke. What's on? What's up? Right when this thing is about to get bloody. You bring in your... Child, innocent baby child.

So these kingdoms are going to war with one another. So you have... That's why I took his headphones off, Tim. Yeah, the kingdoms of the gods going to war with one another. They're hybrid offerings, the king of these, the kings of the kingdoms, the rulers, they're locked into this conflict. And then what happens? Cataclysm.

Atlantis is destroyed in the day and night by a massive flood in tidalways and this earth-shattering cataclysm. Where did that story come from? That's the story of the Antigiluvian world, according to the Book of Enok. Exactly the same thing happened with the watchers. They divided the earth, and they each took an allotment of planet Earth, and they built their kingdoms. This is what I call the empire of the gods. In the beginning, it was unified. That means the technology was universal.

Why do we find megaliths built the same way all over the planet? Because it was ubiquitous. The knowledge, the technology was ubiquitous. It was universal because it was the empire of the gods and the offspring of the gods. And so they were building with the same technology. And I don't think that there was, you know, all the civilizations, the human beings who were subjugated to these civilizations, to these kingdoms, were advanced. They had advanced knowledge. Rather, I think it was more like the fraternity of the offspring of the gods.

The fraternity of the offspring of the gods were advanced. Have you guys ever seen the movie Stargate? Not the show, The Movie Stargate. And remember, it's a Bronze Age Egyptian civilization who are subjugated by this extraterrestrial who's pretending that he's Amun Ra. I forget which God exactly. and his minions have advanced technology, right? But the rest of civilization is Bronze Age. So it was probably something like that.

And part of the judgment of the watchers would they would have to witness the destruction of their beloved sons. And so the angels, God dispatches the angels to cause conflict between them, to incite them to war with one another, and they go to war with one another. And I think we're looking at,

and I'm wrapping up right now, I think we're looking at, it's just going to bleed into our next talk. I'll end right here. I think we're looking at a high-tech conflict in the Antediluvian world, in the Empire of the Gods, among the offspring of the gods, previous to the flood. And that explains, I believe, some of what we find around the world in regard to megaliths. Period. Thanks, gentlemen. We're only seven men yourself, but that wasn't bad.

Well, I think we can all agree, and this might certify my singleness, but women create problems. In all realms. Just kidding. Nate's not making it out of here life.