Blurry Creatures - EP: 265 Alien Mummies with Josh McDowell

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

In this episode, we dive into the fascinating story of lawyer and researcher Josh McDowell, who along with his father and a skilled forensic team, made groundbreaking discoveries about the mysterious Nazca mummies of Peru. The findings shocked the scientific and historical communities and made international headlines. We'll explore how McDowell's legal expertise and methodical approach helped shed new light on these ancient remains, challenging longstanding beliefs and raising new questions about their origins. These enigmatic mummies could change everything if this investigation continues to uncover more evidence of a potential non-human origin. Tune in as we discuss the meticulous investigation, the team's surprising conclusions, and what this means for the future of archaeology and history. You can follow Josh in the future at: https://forensic-x.com/ and for now on www.mcdowellfirm.com. COSTA RICA TICKETS! https://www.eventcreate.com/e/costarica2025 You can get our book of Enoch here: https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com & Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was a prosecutor for years before I was a defense attorney, and so I've seen a lot of fingerprints. And I've also studied fingerprints, and I know what to look for. And I'm not just talking about me, but I'm also talking about a forensic anthropologist whose shoulder to shoulder with me looking at these things. And those aren't human prints. Those don't make sense. A lot of them have this similar feature in common, which is these elongated skulls, these modified craniums. And so it's a big question like, well, where do they keep finding these bodies?

And it's not that they keep finding them. The answer is they found them, they moved them, and they've stored them. We can't bring stuff into the United States that is part of the cultural patrimony of Peru. It's illegal. We're hoping that at some point the Ministry of Culture will say, let's take them, let's test them, let's find out what these are, and then let's bring them back. And if these are the most important find of the millennium, let's find out. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine.

The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right. Because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal.

All right, welcome back. We are going back to Luke's favorite place, the boson. Bonesome, we're going to talk about the Peruvian mummies. A couple years ago, this whole narrative surfaced picture. some video, there was some news articles, and then they look like powdered donut aliens in like sitting position. You know, when E.T. got sick, it's what they look like.

But are they real? Is it a hoax? We don't know. Let's bring on a lawyer who's been down there with his dad, who's a doctor. Let's talk to this guy. Let's talk to the pros. That's what we're doing. Yeah, no, the NASCAR mummies are really an enigma. Of course, there was a lot of stuff in the media about how some of this was faked, and there was some fake stuff that came out.

But Josh McDowell, who's going to join us here, defense attorney, whose dad is one of the leading forensic experts that there is, put together a team, went down to Peru to investigate and actually do a real, legit, scientific investigation into. to these enigmatic mummies. And, you know, find out, are they fake? If they're fake, let's just prove it. If they're not, let's try to prove that as well.

And there's been some media that's really hit the wire in the last month about some of the findings that Josh and his father and their team found in examining these mummies. And so it's great to have Josh showing us today to really talk about what's happening in Peru. You are these things legit. What are his thoughts? What are they doing around this? What are the stories behind these NASCAR mummies? And what's the real nitty-gritty of the story? Why are the llamas so mean down there?

They want to know. They only hate you, man. It's cool to have gone there. We took some blurry listeners like last summer and you guys came with us. And so it's cool to be talking about something that we understand a little bit more because we were there. But, you know, this one's interesting. It reminds me of a lot of stuff we hear on the story. Oh, yeah, Roswell crashed. And then the official story is, it's a weather balloon. And there's, you know, all these little, like, fake stories that try to

discredit the actual one. Oh, this, this bigfoot suit came out. That footage isn't real. Look at, we have the suit here. And we have the guy that did it. And it's just, it never ends on our show when something seems legit. And you actually get the x-rays. Then all of a sudden, all the fake stuff comes rolling out. So we're going to get into this whole, topic and story and kind of help uh help you guys out there that wonder if some of the stuff is fake because when this happens it ultimately you guys send us all the videos and then you know either we're already aware of that or we don't know what to think and usually we try to post stuff that's legit so it's good to talk to the guys that are actually there on scene looking at the x-rays and saying

look this is 100% real we have a pregnant elongated skull being i don't know what it is but you'll hear more about that on this episode if you want to support what we're doing doing here. Blurraycreatures.com slash members. Become a member. Help us produce this show. We are about to move into our studio. We are excited. Things are getting crazy here in the Blurrayverse. And we're going to have, we have a lot of stuff coming down the pipe. We have digital tickets to BlurieCon if you want to come from the comfort of your own living room. So you can join us at BlurieCon. Of course, tickets sold out in less than two hours. But there are virtual tickets. You can come and enjoy all the speakers.

All the pageantry, all the 80s fun that you can imagine at Blurikon to this year. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be wild. But for now, we're going to talk to Josh McDowell, who examined X-rayed and touched the Nazca mummies, what the press is calling the alien mummies of Peru. And Josh's got a fascinating story to tell about the scientific method being applied to some very enigmatic mummies from Peru. All right, so welcome back to blurry creatures. We have a criminal defense lawyer Josh McDowell on the show today.

And you helped organize this team of forensic experts to go down to Peru and figure out the mystery behind the NASCAR mummies. And we've talked about this just like a little bit here and there on the podcast. We haven't had a full episode on this. And like all these things in this space when something, some breaking news happens, you don't really know if it's fake, it's real, what's the deal? And there's so many, so it's easier and easier to fake stuff now. But up to 12 mummies now, it seems, at least close to that, have been discovered over the last couple years and brought out to light. And look at the alien, in quote, mummies in Peru.

And Josh, so you know, Nate and I and one of a frequent guests on our show, Timothy Albarino, we actually went to Peru last year. More so to look at the megaliths, so we're familiar with Peru. We didn't get to NASCA. But these mummies have been crazy. I know this has to do with the story where the gentleman presented these mummies to the to Mexican Congress. So there's like international scandal. There's, but these things are really enigmatic.

We've talked a lot about the elongated skulls in NASCA and the in niggas behind that, all the, all the studies. But this one is really fresh and new in a lot of ways since this is really the first time there's been forensic studies on, you know, on these mummies. And I butted in there. but if you've been listening to our show, and maybe you haven't, but we start off with all of our guests, whether you are a professor emeritus or a doctor or a theologian or whoever you are, we ask everyone across the board what their thoughts are on Bigfoot,

because we always joke it's the gateway drug into all the weird. So what are your thoughts, Josh? Welcome to the show. Nate, Luke, thanks for having me. Excited to be here and to get into that. I know there was about 15 questions right off the back. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, yeah.

And we'll get into it. You know, it's funny that you mentioned Bigfoot because since my dad and I have, you know, been looking at these mummies, we've been getting a lot of emails to go look at other weird things to do forensic analysis of other. And I do air quotes, alien bodies. And just last weekend, we were in Mexico looking at one of the strangest things you've ever seen. Another air quote, alien body, very, very strange. And over the past couple weeks, I've actually gotten quite a few Bigfoot emails. Oh, right. Yeah, from people that want us to look at biological, let's say, material, biological material related to Bigfoot. And last week I got a really cool Bigfoot video I've never seen anywhere before. United States that they say they have some biological material as well. So we've got so many projects going on.

My father and I were getting emails to do forensic examinations of X, Y, and Z. And it's fun, it's cool, it's a great way for me to spend time with my pops examining these things. And maybe that's one we're going to go ahead and take a look at. I'd be really excited to it. It's a video I haven't seen online. It's a video that's up close. It's a dang good video, but you don't know. You're teasing us, bro.

You're teasing us here. You've got, you've got Bigfoot videos. What are your thoughts, though? Do you think Bigfoot's a, what do you think? Do you think it's a real thing? And what do you think it is potentially? Just if you're spitball, we don't know. No, one knows, right?

This is the fun of it. No, that's fair, guys. You know, I look at things that I always want to keep an open mind. I, you know, even with these mummies, I don't have a dog in the fight. It's me going down. Let's look at it. Let's see what the information is. And I think it would be the same thing with Bigfoot is I'd like to look at evidence.

I mean, you know, we don't have a body yet. We have a lot of blurry videos and we have a lot of stories, you know, historically over the years. My father grew up in southern Washington, and I'm sure, you know, he's got a million stories of people that have heard and secondhand. It's hearsay. So I don't know. I'm open to it. I'm not someone who has a strong position one way or another.

I mean, we know that there's Bigfoot-like creatures that, you know, the giganticapithecus that's what, maybe 100,000 years old based on the data. I mean, modern humans or anatomically modern humans. are about 200,000 years old. So there's probably some overlap between Bigfoot-type creatures and during the age of megafauna and anatomically modern humans.

So I want to keep an open mind to all. That's where we started our show. That's kind of how we kind of got on all these weird subjects, and it quickly went into like sort of alternate history and giants and things and all these other stuff that's been discovered. And, you know, these elongated schools,

you know, that's sort of the rumor that some of these ancient giant races that have been rumored to exist all over the place, you know, Peru might be one of the last places they were, they were, you know, ended up. And there's a lot of, you know, strange places down there. But these elongated skulls are interesting. And that was like one of our first episodes we talked about

just getting DNA testing about these particularly. We talked to Brian Forster about that when it, um, he was trying to lead a charge on saying that these are, these are anomalies, the way that there's certain parts of the school that are not like, they're not human, and they're different than human beings. And it's still just this controversy. Nobody wants to accept it. Nobody wants to actually, you know, it just blows a hole in a lot of narratives.

So how did you get started in this? What was the impetus of how you put together a team, went down there. I mean, in some ways you're like an unlikely candidate to a rowdy a group of guys together and go. Yeah, that's fair, Nate. here's what happened. I was on social media one day. I don't know if it was Twitter, X, you know, Instagram, what it was. But a clip of Jaime Mousan presenting those bodies in front of the Mexican Congress showed up on my feet.

And, you know, just as you do, you watch some of the videos. And I was, you know, kind of piqued my interest. So I went and watched the full video. I found it online and watched the video of the congressional hearing. Ryan Graves was there. He's one of the pilots that was at the U.S. Congress testifying with David Grush about these U.A. And so I watched it, and I, you know, piqued my interests. And at the end of the press conference, Hyman Moussaan says,

we welcome forensic experts from all over the world to come take a look at these. And it turns out my dad, as the former president of the American Academy, I mean of forensic sciences. He's been a forensic scientist almost as long as I've been alive. And I called him up, said, hey, you got to see this. I sent him over the video, and I said, what do you think? And, you know, he's like, this is odd. This is weird.

This is new. And I said, you know, what do you think if I call Jaime and Wussan? Shoot him an email and say, hey, we'll go take a look at these things. It might be fun to take a trip down to Peru to look at these things. And he's like, oh, yeah, nothing will come of it. Go ahead. And within an hour, I was on the phone with Jaime Mousan and setting up a trip. It's wild. Yeah.

So this was late Jan, early February of this year. And every year in February, there is the American Academy of Forensic Sciences Conference. And this year, it happened to be in Denver. I'm in Colorado Springs. My folks are in suburban Denver. and this year my dad was getting the big award, the Gradwall medallion. And so it was kind of a family event for us all to go up to the Academy's conference to support my dad to get the award.

And my dad said, well, look, if we're going to go down there, we need a pathologist, we need a medical examiner, we need an anthropologist, you and me going down there is we're going to be limited. we need the best, and it turns out the best are in the building. Let's go talk to them. And that's what we did. So first, I sat down and talked to Dr. Jim Caruso, who's the medical examiner for the city and county of Denver, a former DOD guy, explained to him, talked him into it a little

bit, and we called one of the best living forensic anthropologists, Dr. William Rodriguez, who works for the state of Maryland, who the stories that man can tell in the cases he's done are just incredible. And so we kind of put together, you know, my dad's dream team of who we'd want to go take a look at these things and said, guys, let's go down, let's do it.

And we found a time to go down and take a look at these bodies. And everyone was so welcoming, and they just, they rolled out the red carpet for us. They got all the best, you know, imaging modalities they have in Peru,

and they're not what we have up here. They're not as good or state-of-the-art, let's say. But we personally CT'd them, we live, we put them under fluoroscopy. We've looked at these bodies,

many of these bodies, together as a team. So that's kind of how my, you know, involvement came around. And look, in forensics, ultimately,

fellows, is, you know, it's the application of scientific principles and methods to legal issues. And so I deal with this all the time myself. I'm quite used to doing cross-examinations of scientists and doctors. And listen, when you're in a deposition or you're in a cross-examination, you better be ready to support your position and your conclusions with solid science. and so I think it was important for me to be down there and asking the right questions too I've done it I've had it thousands of times yeah yeah it's like I guess you're right I didn't really think about the extent of how much you're trying to prove your case and all the time it can come down to just little tiny details what takes a case from yes to no you know um or vice

versa and I think that you know what are you thinking when you're seeing this and what jumps out at you immediately. When I'm looking at the bodies for the first time, well, a lot of the morphology that's different, right? So number one, let's take Maria, for example, Maria is kind of one of the more

well-known, and Maria's about five foot. She's humanoid in almost every way, shape, and form, except she has an elongated cranium, a modified cranial morphology. She has three fingers, three toes. She has

extra phalanges in both her fingers and her toes. And so when we're talking about phalanges, we're talking about finger bounce. Humans, you know, in your three middle fingers, you have three phalanges. She has four, as do all of them. Yeah, their hands look like E.T. Right. You're right. They're much longer. So you see these elongated fingers and toes. It's because there's extra phalanges in both fingers and toes. And I've seen them under CT gentlemen. I've seen them under the fluoroscopy, which is almost like a live x-ray. Think of it that way. And if they've been faked, they're damn good. It, they look great under, under CT and under, under, under fluoroscopy. Josh, do you know, can you give us a little like history on, on these, like, when, when they,

when they were discovered and, you know, how long, if you know how long Peru's had them. I mean, because, I love the story because, you know, this is how our podcast started. Yeah. Nate used, it was Twitter then, so it was, but he, you know, he messaged me about doing a, quote, Bigfoot podcast, and here we are four years later. And it's an amazing connector. And I love that that's how this happened with, you know, with you getting involved. But the history of these, like, you know, because there's an article that came out two days ago, in the Daily Mail you were quoted in this. And actually, that's how I found you initially was, when we found you, was, was your, you being mentioned and talked about in these articles.

but they end up finding more five-foot-tall mummies that have sort of the animatic three fingers and all that. But these original few, you know, where, when, and where have they been previous to you guys getting a chance to look at them? And look, it's a great question. And that is one of the big questions of the whole case, if you will.

So they first appeared on the scene, late 2016, early 2017. That's kind of a ballpark idea. and they come from a group of what they call Wauquita, which are basically grave diggers, grave robbers, that found these bodies. Now, the original lore, if you will, was that these specimens were found in a citadel,

an underground temple, if you will, inside of sarcophagi with many bodies. Now, I don't believe that to be true, and there's a lot of reasons I don't. I was fortunate when we were down in Eka University to actually interview. His name is Leandro Rivera. He goes by Mario. So a lot of things you'll see him refer to as Mario.

Mario's kind of the main walkiero, who has recovered these bodies and has disseminated or distributed these bodies to various locations. And I got to ask him these questions. His position is that they were found in a cave somewhere in the Nazca, between Nazca and Pulpa, which are two cities in southern Peru. It's a desert region. It's

got, you know, it's mountainous, very rocky. What he told me was that he found him in a cave that was full of diatomaceous Earth. Now, diatomaceous Earth is this white substance that you see on all these mummies.

It's almost like a clay-like substance that hardens up and has created a, you know, a crust, if you will, around these bodies. And, you know, diatoms are little miniature sea creatures. And so algae. It could be algae. It could be living biological creatures as well.

It's like, you know, plankton or whatever. But he says he found him in a cave full of this diatomaceous earth, and they were covered in this earth as well. And they all are. And that's what that powdery white substance is. I have not been to the cave. I know a lot of people who I have. I've seen video of the cave.

And the story is Mario and his group removed all these bodies from this cave and have stored them in another location. And so it's a big question like, well, where do they keep finding these bodies? And it's not that they keep finding them. The answer is they found them, they moved them, and they've stored them. And the allegation or the story is that there's about a hundred of them. And, you know, and I'll tell you, I don't believe that they were found in this cave. And there's quite a few clues to lead me to believe that they were not found in this cave. I think it's a red herring.

Number one, they wouldn't fit. Even two or three of these mummies, these bodies wouldn't fit in that cave. He gives tours of the cave, charges several thousand dollars to take people up there. This has got a good thing going. He does. He does. But they weren't found in that cave. I can tell you guys with certainty that's not where they were found.

But that's what the current story is. And, you know, you have to, one of the problems is we don't know the provenance of these bodies. We don't have an archaeological site that we can go and look at and study and say, okay, this is how they were found. Because these mummies, these bodies are very different than any other Peruvian mummies from this era. You know, there's the Paracas era, which. which is right before Nazca.

And, you know, Nasca starts at about 200 BC, goes to about 6 or 700, 80. So we're looking at about 8,900 years of the Nazca period, and the Paracus is before that. Both of them had elongated skulls, both of them preserved bodies,

and we have many, many preserved bodies from both the Aracus period and from the Naska period. There's a great museum in a Paracas, Peru, where you can go and look at these bodies. And a lot of them have this similar feature in common, which is these elongated schools, these modified craniums. And what's interesting is about 60% of bodies found from this period actually have these elongated craniums.

So it's, you know, more than half. So that's a common thing. So what do I think? Well, number one, there was probably something that they did at that time as they were young. They did headbinding. and it created these elongated schools. Now, these craniums are large. They're very large.

They're bigger than you'd expect to see. There's a lot of other features that orbitals, the eye sockets are large on some of these mummies, larger than you would expect to see that would be consistent with a human skull. But what we haven't found is any other bodies other than this group that have been preserved in this same fashion, covered in diatomaceous earth. There's a lot of different mummy styles

that were ways to mummify. Mummify is an odd word because there's different definitions of the word mummify, but I'm just going to use the word mummy to make it easier for today. For example, Bill Rodriguez, Dr. Rodriguez,

the anthropologist who came with us studied many mummies from South America, and he'll tell you, he's never seen them, you know, stored, preserved in this fashion. So these are unique in that way and then certainly unique in the manifestation and morphology of the three fingers and three toes. It's interesting. Yeah, it's way interesting. Years ago, I listened to the story of Uzi, the guy that they found in the snow. And the only way that he was preserved was the ice was melting and then refreezing, melting and

refreezing. So it was kind of an anomaly that he was able to stay preserved for as long as he was. and he's like a primitive hunter basically. And so do you think that this is, there was some unique way that these were preserved other than a lot of stuff that just maybe decay breaks down, gets buried, gets eaten, something happens and then it's just scattered around. There was, all things were kind of in place

to keep these from totally being unobservable. It's a great question, and I don't think we know the answer. Yeah, Maine, I don't think we know. One of the theories is that the earth, the Diatimaceous Earth covering, protected them from bugs and from predator. And if they were in a location that had, I mean, this is a desert region, right? I mean, it's here and rocky.

And it's very sparsely populated. And so, but we also do have many exemplars of other bodies that have been found that are on display. And you can go see them in Peru at these holy sites where, the mummies are out in the open, and you can see these bodies from similar periods. These are bodies that are thousands of years old that have been preserved, and they're out in the open to go look at in Peru. The Ministry of Docher has taken these archaeological sites. Now, these are not covered and died to Misha Serve, and they don't have three fingers and toes,

but you can go see them. It's crazy that these particular ones, whether their particular anomalies are preserved differently. The part's really weird in a lot of ways, right? Yeah, because you talk about the paracus mummies. Those are preserved really because of the arid climate or anything it feels like because there's some sub-hair, right? And you laid out some very interesting enigmas with that. Of course, the other one is the frame and magnum is in a different location,

which is really odd. That wouldn't be headbinding. So you have something going on here that's much more different than just traditional headbinding. You might see other places in the world. Yeah, like mass and eye sockets. It doesn't really make a lot of sense that. Yeah, you can't really add more mass. your head very easily. I don't want to add any more mass to my head on top. So, Luke, you bring up

a big point. And you're talking about where the form and magnum is located on some of these bodies. There's different types of bodies. And I think we need to do some taxonomy and classify these bodies differently. And I've seen online some different classifications of where they call them different types or they're insectoids or humanoids. And I don't like any of those things. But When we're talking about these bodies that are about 60 centimeters tall, right? You're right. They do not appear human. Some of them have what are looked at as eggs in the stomach.

Well, that's weird. Yeah, it's very weird. Some of them have fins or wings. The head and where the form and magnum is, which is where the neck enters the skull, right? It's the whole. It's the hole. It's where your spine fits in. There you go. Good man. Okay. So the form and magnum on these 60 centimeter creatures, you're right. It's about darn near in the middle. Now, that's not true with these larger humanoid bodies. Maria, Montserrat, Sebastian, Santiago. They're very, very consistent with humans in where the neck and head, spine, meet. But there are very different bodies and very different types of bodies. And

right off the top, I think, and this is an important piece. Nate said, well, what about that press conference that was held by the Peruvian Ministry of Culture? And I think it's a great jumping off point. Because for people that aren't in the know, in January of 2024, this year, there was some bodies that were recovered at Lima Airport. And this is what made it into mainstream media is these two small bodies, maybe 16, 18 inches tall that looked very similar. They're still covered in that diatomaceous earth, and they're dressed very silly, and they've got sandals and dresses and headdresses, and, you know, the Ministry of Culture brought those out, a forensic archaeologist named Flavio Estrada, who works for the Ministry of Culture,

had a press conference and said, look, these are fake. These are made of animal and human bones with modern glue. These are modern fakes. And a lot of the mainstream media picked this up. And here's the big problem. What they've done is they've conflated these fake bodies. And I will tell you the bodies that Flavio Estrada was showing at that press conference were absolutely fake. The artist who made them has come forward and said, I made those.

I made those based on what I learned and I've seen on the other bodies that have been. produced in the past. And so they presented these very fake, very rudimentary artisanal crafts as, hey, all these mommies are fake. Do you think that was on purpose? I do. I do. There's a lot of reasons I think it was still on purpose. What they tried to do is they've tried to conflate obvious fake bodies and to confuse the subject with other bodies that aren't fake. So are there bodies that are fake, yes. Are there bodies that we don't know what they are yet? And we've looked at with some of the best forensic doctors in the entire world under CT and that we've looked at and we don't know the answers to yet, there are. And so when a lot of people say, well, those have been fake, those have

been debunked, and they'll send you an article about this January press conference, well, yes, those bodies were. And there are going to be other fake bodies out there because this is big business. And so a lot of what's happened, gentlemen, is people have realized that these bodies are going for a lot of money. And it's been a lot of money. And they've been old these bodies, I know where a lot of these bodies are. They're in Russia. They're in Japan. They've been recovered in Brazil. One of the bodies, Montserrat, who is actually pregnant. And that's a great story to get into as well. There's a fetus inside

of one of these bodies. That body was in the possession for seven years of a Peruvian collector. He passed away and it was back on the market. Josh, real quick, real quick. So when you're talking about the guy who was the grave robber, and he's saying he got him in a cave, what you're saying, though, is that

these things have been found and purchased on the black market and have been are in private collections, some of these bodies right now. They're not actively discovering these and he made that pretty there's a repository somewhere you made that pretty pretty clear in as far as you believe but you're saying some of these bodies ended up in in russia japan in brazil and are only really coming to light because a guy passed away in brazil and and

realizing that these things have kind of been disseminated if you will because of these odd mummies yes but there's a lot more there's a lot more okay yeah i just wanted i'll make sure i was tracking because that's that's that's it's so it's really crazy like you think about like it reminds me what happened in Egypt of I mean sadly right is that is that these people would and still happens today it happens in Israel they where folks go and they find these things and then they black market these these sort of these priceless artifacts of well yeah you have third world countries and you have people that are poor they're going to there's multiple reasons versus americans where the discredit is just to as just to kind of crush the narrative but maybe down there there's multiple reasons why they'd

want to fake things and you don't think you don't think about that and Nate that's a great point and And let me, and I'm going to answer that question, Lou. But let me preface it real quick with, you know, part of what our idea was when we were going down to Peru was we're going to do everything legally. We're going to do everything ethically, scientifically, you know, and we're not going to break any laws. And we're not going to, you know, do anything that's going to disrespect the culture of Peru or of these bodies and what they are. That's really important to us. And that was, you know, a mantra for our team is that we're going to do everything legally, ethically, scientifically, and culturally respectfully.

Because, you know, number one, we want, we're in this to help. We've done open letters to the Ministry of Culture. And I've personally written a letter to the, I was asked to personally write a letter to the president of Peru to say, hey, we want to work and collaborate with whoever. any scientist, any, you know, any person of qualification and expertise that you want to bring, we're willing to work with you. We've got the best equipment, modalities, instruments, and expertise, and we're not asking for a dime. We're willing to go down there and give our time and expertise, and I shouldn't say,

hour, I mean, when I'm talking about my team, my dad, my, you know, and my friends, Dr. Rodriguez and Dr. Caruso, our team, to go down and look at these things and to help. Because if they are, you know, made of children's bones and some of these bodies, right, some of these bodies are integral biological specimens. Now, have they been modified? That's the big question. But some of these bodies don't make a lot of sense. some of these little 60 centimeter tall bodies is just even at first glance.

Never see anything like this in the fossil record. They don't make sense how they would walk or move. They, you know, in their shoulders and in their hips, we're not talking about ball and socket joints. There's oddities in these creatures. But we've offered, you know, our team's assistance to help any way we can. And it's very important that we do things the right way. And there's a lot of groups that have worked to be like, well, we want to be first.

We want to figure this out. And body parts and pieces have been studied all over the world. I mean, Southeast Asia, Canada, hearts of Europe, Russia. They've studied things. And once again, we have an issue here because, number one, which bodies are the real bodies? Because there's fakes out there floating around, number one. Number two, we have to look at what I call the three. recedes, which are collection, contamination, chain of custody. And if we don't have those things,

the testing methods don't matter. You can have the best testing methods in the entire world, but if there's contamination or if they're not collected in the proper fashion in a clean room by the best scientists doing it the right way, you get some carbon in there. And from something else, you're not going to get the right result on a carbon-14 dating. Same thing with DNA. If you contaminated DNA, you're not going to get the right answers. So what do we look at? Maybe a long bone, a femur, a tooth, something like that that's protected where we can get good, clean DNA. And this is ancient DNA, fellas. This isn't modern DNA. So we're going to have to use different techniques to get to that. I love it, though, right? It's like, it's like, it's a provenance is so important

in these things. And I actually really think it's integral that you being a lawyer are in this, because again, you have to build a case. And I love that you guys are going into being like, we don't have an agenda for this. Like, we don't have, we're not going in with a supposition this has to be non-human or it has to be human. We just want to figure out what's going on here with this enigmatic mummies and it get to the bottom of it.

And it's wild. I mean, the things you're just saying dropping on us already, like the hips are different and you have these, you have anatomical differences that are, that are enigmatic. I was going to say, like, I think listeners, you understand how things kind of roll in Peru, like Luke and I know how things are in Peru. This is where something like this would be found,

you know, because it doesn't have sort of the control in place to protect, like information doesn't have as many chains of command that it has to go through. Things can just pop up out of nowhere. I mean, if you've been down there, it's kind of a mashup of like a third world advance. It's kind of like a little bit of everything down in Peru.

You know what I mean? It's the Wild West, Nate. There is like great, like there's great food and there's the culinary is really, really great. And then there's like these really ghetto poor areas. And it's just like a mixture. And I think that if you're going to discover something, if you discover that here in America, it would be squashed. The universities would be all over it. And like we say on this show, the Smithsonian would show up.

Everything would disappear. But down there, it's still possible for this stuff to happen because it doesn't have the same mechanisms in place to squash. and to hide and discredit, you know. Or to whisk away, right? Like, you just, it can disappear. Well, you mentioned Grush, too, right? One of the things that Grush did in this year was both a whistle on the fact that, according to his testimony, which with whistleblower protection, protection of the legalities.

And with that, is he says that there's, you know, we've, we, but somebody in either the military industrial complex or a defense contractor has non-human biologics and pieces of downed UFO craft. And this is his testimony, right? And you said that. But where is that? Right. And this is the point in Nays making. In Peru, that may just end up up and someone's got it, you know, and you can look at it. Yeah. It's in Jorge's garage. He's got it over there, you know? It's not Aratheon. They're not holding it in their secret bunker or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers.

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right. I mean, it's a little different. I lived in Brazil for a couple of years. I've lived in South America. I understand a lot of the culture and it studied it a lot, too. I mean, since I've gotten involved in this, I've read every book I can on the Nazca and the Paracas culture. because I want to be very culturally sensitive to this too. But Nate, I forget it was Nate or Luke that asked the question, but I kind of want to go back to this, because I think it's a very important piece, is talking about the provenance and provenance of these bodies.

And I've got a blog. I don't know if you guys have been to my website. It's on my website, McDowellfirm.com under my blogs. And I'm moving those off, by the way. My search engine optimization guys are not happy with me that I've been putting on my law firm website. So I'm starting a new website. I do blog.

It's ForensicX.com, which was kind of a fun name my dad thought of, because we've been studying these other anomalies, these other forensic anomalies, and we think it would be probably better to put them in a different. Oh yeah, once you start, The weirder, it's weirder guts is kind of our podcast. It's like, get into one subject and it just explodes and people start sending you all kinds of stuff, and it's good.

No, it's, it is good. It's, it's been healthy, and it's, like I said, it's, it's been interesting, and it's been kind of, it's become a little bit of a hobby that every day I'm getting emails about something. And, you know, when the Daily Mail article came out Saturday or Sunday, you know, my inbox was full. And got a couple really cool new cases that they want us to look at that might be something there. Yeah. Dude, you're going to have to keep us up to date on this, Josh. I mean, if you've got to, yeah, I mean, listen, we might be our go-to man on the ground for, you know, real or not real. Deal or no deal.

Real or, yeah, these things are legit or not. So here's the deal. We don't know what the provenience is. We don't know. And so when we talk about provenience and prognance, so provenances, we're talking about where the things were located. It's an archaeological term as to say they were found in this location, here's the side, here's how they were removed.

Provenants we usually use when we're talking about art or other thing. Artwork. It's ownership and, oh, you know, X sold it to Y, et cetera. But they both apply here because these bodies have been changing hands. So the provenance is a big question, but so is the provenance, because all of this is illegal. There's memorandums of understandings and treaties. between these countries about items and articles of cultural heritage that are not to be moved

out of the country of origin. And so we can't bring stuff into the United States that is part of the cultural patrimony of Peru. It's illegal unless very specifically you have permission from, you know, the Peruvian government, probably the Ministry of Culture, and then also U.S. customs. and it would be for a limited period of time. And that's what we're hoping to do is we're hoping that at some point the Ministry of Culture will say, let's take them, let's test them, let's find out what these are, and then let's bring them back.

And if these are the most important find of the millennium, which they very well could be, if they are what a lot of people think they are, or if they're elaborate hoaxes, let's find out. Because of the bodies of, I don't know, you hear all these stories. Oh, they're llama schools or their children's bones or whatever. Well, that needs to be figured out. And then it needs to be handled accordingly by the Ministry of Culture in Peru. And when we just dismiss it and say, oh, these are dolls, we found them at the airport, and we've confiscated them, and they're all BS.

It's not helpful. What's really helpful is to look at it and to get the best experts and to see. study them to do the scientific method and then issue a peer-reviewed report on what our findings are. And what's an idea, man. This is an incredible report. This is incredibly hard to do. Look what they're doing with the Gobeckley-Tepe. You know, they built an orchard on the back, and it's owned by the World Economic Forum now, and they won't let anyone dig. What, I mean, this could get, for better words, this could get Go-Bekly-Tepied. It's just, we're not going to put it over here and nobody can touch it because it blows holes in everything we've been all these

narratives that we've been pushing forever it's like do you think that's going to happen to these mummies well there's there's some good luck and there's some bad luck that's happened the bad luck is that the grave diggers have been selling these bodies to private collectors and they've ended up in different places and i'm going to use montserrat she's the pregnant body that was recently found okay that And she was in the private collection and of a Peruvian collector for six or seven years until this collector died. The estate or the family had this, what I would argue is a priceless artifact didn't know what to do. And that artifact, that body ended up back on the open market. And it was purchased to be preserved.

And fortunately, there's been people that have been involved in this. since early that have worked to preserve these bodies because otherwise they're going to be sold into private collections. And so because these bodies are priceless. I know what they've gone for. I've been told what they've been paid for, and it's probably more than you expect. It's a lot of money. And some of them seven figures, fellas.

Wow. And they've ended up all over the world, and it's a tragedy because we don't know what these are yet. and are these part of the cultural patrimony at Peru? I think they are, no matter what they are. Now, if they're fakes, well, they're fakes, and we can say they're fakes, but if they're not, they need to be studied and they need to either whatever the culturally sensitive thing to do is, is to put them in a museum, to rebury them, to put them back at a site, whatever the Peruvian government ministry of culture thinks is appropriate is what should be done with them.

I firmly believe that. We need to know what they are. So Montserrat ends back up on the open market, so to speak. And fortunately, there's people and groups that have said, we need to preserve these and we need to study these. And one of those gentlemen is Jaime Mousan. And Jaime Mousan is a Mexican journalist for those who don't know, who has a UFO show that's been running for decades.

And Jaime has been very proactive in securing some of these bodies. and allowing them to be studied. And his position is very similar to what I just suggested, is we need to figure out what these are, and then they need to go into a museum or other location as the Peruvian government deems appropriate once we know what these are. And so, Jaime has been very instrumental

in preserving these bodies, and was very helpful in giving us access to these bodies. So, for the bodies, currently are at the University of Ica, and there's a baby named Wawita, which just means baby in Kichwa. There's Maria, who actually may be Mario, by the way. There's white chromosomes that they found in some of the DNA. And then there's two of the smaller bodies,

these 60 centimeter type bodies, and we were able to look at all of them. They actually U-Haul, or the Peruvian equivalent of U-Haul, in a fluoroscopy machine, which are huge. It's the size of a refrigerator for us specifically to do the tests, to do the imaging modalities on these bodies because they're not removing them from the University of ECA because they have autonomy. And as soon as you try to move them from the University of Eka, the proven government's going to try to snatch these up.

And they've done that multiple times. So there's a lot of other bodies that are in safe locations in Peru that are being preserved by different parties that want to see these tested and want answers because they're nervous that they'll disappear. So question is I was going to ask you, what do you think, how do you much do you think it would cost to fake one of these things? Because you have multiple of them. It's not like you just one pops out of the bushes and we got one specimen. And how much you think it would require to fake, especially the pregnant one, too? That's interesting.

Oh, that's not faked. I can tell you that Montserrat is not, you know, quote unquote, faked. It was a real biological, you know, a one-time living creature, 100%. It's not faked. And there's no doubt in my mind, you know, having looked at it with these, you know, like I said, three of the best forensic scientists in the world. And not just, and I'm not just. talking about, you know, the three that came with me.

I mean, there's these incredible Mexican and Peruvian doctors that have been studying these for years. And I'd be remiss to not mention Dr. Zuniga and Dr. Zalci Benitez, who's the head of the naval forensics in Mexico, who's an incredible doc, who's done great work on these things. And so it's not just, you know, the U.S. team, if you will. the guys that brought with us, but there's these doctors that have been studying these for years that are convinced that these are real biological living creatures. Now, once again, which ones, which bodies? Because we know there's some fakes. For a fact, we know there's some fakes,

and other ones are probably going to keep popping up. And so we need to, that provenance and provenance is a big problem. And so there's a lot of issues that are coming. into play. But so Monserat, the pregnant body, is not faked. The question is, is where does her unique morphology originate from? Was she born in this fashion? Was her cranium modified, or her hands and toes modified? Did she have fingers removed and philanges added? What has happened to this body? Is her morphology the way she was born, or is it modified either ancient? or modernly, who did it, why it was done. Those are the questions that we're trying to figure out.

And that's what the scientific method's about. And the first piece of it is you've got to go take a look. And so we have a lot of people that have been talking about these things that haven't done that first step, which is the visual examination, which is why we went down there. And, you know, we went down there with all the Peruvian docks were there, a couple of the Mexican docs were there, and we all worked together as a team to look at these. And so none of us is as smart as all of us. And so we were definitely working together.

So when I asked, Jeff, what do you guys find? I mean, because I've seen some of the articles where there's talk about fingerprints. And if you're doing the x-rays, the fluoroscopy, what are you all finding? I mean, that's the question, right? It is what did you guys, what did you all find? I mean, and what are your thoughts on, you know, at least your hypothesis on what you found? Right. That's the $64,000 question.

Luke. Ultimately, it's an ongoing concern. It's an ongoing investigation. And so what we've done is kind of what... Said like a lawyer. So very much like a lawyer. This is an ongoing investigation. So I don't know. You know, it's like you can't shake it, right? But, you know, what we've done is kind of what I've told you,

is we've done, you know, a visual inspection. We've done the fluoroscopy. We've done the CT. We've done live. And I'll tell you that the CTs that they have are not state of the art. It's, it's Peru, and they don't have what we have. It's almost like if you had a standard deaf TV, and now we have 4K, and we have 4K, CT, you know, this is an analogy, gentleman, but we have this high-definition modalities and instrumentation in the United States that they don't have in Peru, and that aren't available to us. And so it's almost, that we're doing a CT, looking at it, something in standard definition, instead of high

depth. And that's what needs to be done. Now, we did those live. A lot of people are like, oh, those could be faked. They're not real. I was in the room. My father was in the room. Dr. Zalcippinides, Dr. Caruso, Dr. Rodriguez, we were in the room. We watched it all done live. And I'll tell you they're real, the CTs, at least the ones I have. Now, I know some of those have been shared and some of those haven't. I have permission to share those with any scientist, any forensic group or organization that asks for them. I don't think they want them widely disseminated because I don't think they want them

to be altered or changed. But I've been given permission to share them with any scientific organization that is willing to collaborate. and to look at these. And so we're not trying to hide anything. And, you know, it's, we want collaboration. And the biggest collaboration right now is having the Ministry of Culture saying, let's do it together.

And because some of these things, as you know, as you guys kind of made a joke earlier about the Smithsonian where these things disappear, that's one of the big concerns, is that these things will disappear. And Nate had said something about a giant. And here's a fun fact. There's giant bodies down there as well. And there's little bodies. There's humanoid-sized bodies.

And there's giant body parts. Let's go, Josh. There we go. They exist. I've seen photos. I know where they are. We're going to become good pals. You know what?

You need the blurry boys to go with you at some point down there to take a look at this stuff. We're not scientists, but we'll take a look, you know? We took about 40 people to Peru and looked at like Sox-I-Waman and looked at the giant stones and all the things that are now. And Peru is like, it's just a gold mine of weird stuff. And you have some of the best preserved megoliths in the world. I mean, you look at these things. They're as big as buses put together like puzzle pieces. It's insane what's down there.

And I love to hear that because I think a lot of times people get so skeptical about the avenues that we go down in the podcast. but then you have real medical professionals looking at this stuff going, how do you pull this off? And what I want, I love the little details because even like the big, the famous Bigfoot footage,

she's a female. She's got breasts. And supposedly she's walking towards an infant. That's the rumor. And those little details kind of go, if they were going to hoax this, it'll take the time to make a, you know,

put a fetus inside of a mummy. And then, you know, it's just little details like that that I think are interesting and really help the skeptical people come to like, oh, wait a minute. You know, how do they, how would they fake that part, you know? How would they do that? And it's interesting because, you know, that body, Maria, Sebastian, Santiago, I mean, we've done some aging work on the teeth of some of the submature bodies like Santiago. I mean, we've done some aging work on the teeth of some of the submature bodies like Santiago and Sebastian to try to figure out how old they are. But once again, we don't know what they are. So their dictation is very, very similar or let's call it consistent with human dentition.

And so their teeth are something that we can look at. So we take a look at a body like Santiago. Santiago is a small humanoid body that was absolutely once a living creature and it looks to be about three years old if we do dental aging on it, three to four years old. And, you know, because you can figure out a lot

on age of submature humans based on their dentition. You know, baby teeth and permanent teeth and would have come in, etc. But a lot of these were definitely biological living creatures. The big question is, have they been modified to make them different? And to, you know, have they cut off fingers and added phalanges and modified their cradiums? And, you know, keep in mind, they don't have

pin up, which, you know, are your ears, your external ears. A lot of them don't have much in the way up a nose. They don't have hair. Some of them have eyelashes. You know, they have the larger orbitals. So there's all these other fascinating things. And the reporter from the Daily Mail, Matthew Phelan, called me up. And if you read the fingerprint article that was in the... Yes, I was going to ask about that at some point, too, because you're going down the road I was going to ask about the morphology and what you saw.

So this is great. These specifics, like no air, bigger orbitals, you know, no ears, no nose of what you can tell. This is your best conclusions based upon what you're seeing on the scans. And as you say, a standard K stand out of 4K scan, but still you're looking at what you can look at with the tools you have and prove. So, yeah, I was going to ask about the fingerprint thing because it also was very interesting. So, you know, the fingerprints were something that stood out to us right away.

And once again, a lot of these bodies are covered with this diatomaceous earth. And so it's hard to get, you know, a good look in a lot of the things. But some of the fingertips and toe tips have been cleared off. and a little bit of the diatomaceous earth has been removed. So we got a good look at them, and we've got hundreds of photographs. Yeah, these are on the three fingers, right? Right.

So I can travel. These are the three fingers. Three fingers, three toes. All of them are tridactal. And all for us. Wild. You know, species. Tridactal for your listeners just means three fingers, right?

But they all are. Even the little ones, the big ones, the fake one. They have metal implants. Really? And a lot of them. They've, yeah, yeah. Montserrat, the pregnant one's got a nice golden. I don't want to call it gold because I haven't done the mass spectrometry on it yet to know

what it is. But a golden circle on the middle of her forehead. Some of them have collars on their necks, implants and their breast bones. One of the earlier tests said that some of the material was osmium, which is, you know, it's a byproduct of platinum and is incredibly, incredibly expensive and incredibly difficult to refine. I haven't done or seen the mass spectrometry work on that. So I can't, you know, intently verify. Are you able to tell when your scans if these were post-mortem or they had these implants

when they were living? It's really hard to tell because once again, they're caked in this diatomaceous earth. And could you wipe it off with, you know, some water and could you do that? Yes. But I also think that's what's preserving these. And so part of our team's goal was not to do anything that could damage or, you know, potentially, you know, contaminate. I mean, once again, we talk about a forensic examination. We want to make sure everything's done right.

So we don't want to do anything too invasive until and unless there was permission given. and there was a plan and place on how and where this is going to be done. But, Luke, getting back to the fingerprints. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Don't apologize. We looked at them, and I've got, like I said, I've got dozens and dozens of photographs because it was something, you know, my dad's got his camera. He always has got his, you know, $10,000 forensic camera out there snapping pictures.

And he has a lot of photos and really good high-depth photos of. fingers and toes. And most of these fingerprints are not, as you saw in the Daily Mail article, boring me, they're not consistent with what we see in human fingerprints, loops, whirls, and arches. And, you know, I'm not a fingerprint expert, but I've seen thousands of thousands of fingerprints. And every day my clients are getting fingerprinted with the arrested. So I've seen them. And, you know, I was a prosecutor for years before I was a defense attorney. And so I've seen a lot of fingerprints. And I've also studied fingerprints, and I know what to look for. And I'm not just talking about me, but I'm also talking about a forensic anthropologist whose shoulder to shoulder

with me looking at these things. And those aren't human prints. Those don't make sense. And so that's not Josh McDowell saying that. I mean, it is, but it's also, like I said, multiple forensic scientists. Those are the details. Those are the little details. I remember Jeff Malcham was talking about the big foot footprints with the same, he could see the same things. Like how do you fake little tiny, like, you know, pads on the feet with little, you know, prints?

It's like the same type of scientific explanation. And then you, you, you, but you bring this information to the collective and then you get a lot of skepticism. Why do you think, why do you think it's so hard to introduce something that's outside of this paradigm into the paradigm. Yeah, I mean, that's a really big, I think that's one of the big questions, too, Nate, is,

I think a lot of people, it's hard to accept something that's so different and interesting, because, you know, I know you guys are Bigfoot fans, and it's always like, well. A dabble. You dabble. Right. But it's, you know, it's always, well, bring me the body. Yeah. Why don't we have the body?

Right. And then if you have the body, it's, well. Oh, you know, it's fake. And, you know, the bar is always moving. And so we have bodies. Now, you're never going to hear me say that these are alien bodies because I don't know what they are. I mean, if you were to say, I am a very pragmatic person and I'm with a group of pragmatic scientists looking at these things, trying to determine what they are.

And extraterrestrial doesn't make my top ten of what my theories might be. What they are? I don't know. And I think it's incredibly premature to say, well, I think they're this. And just as you guys ask me about Bigfoot, that's what I always like to ask people that have been studying these bodies, is what do you think they are? And, you know, the answers I get are all over the place. They're hybrids, their extra-terrestrooms, they're time travelers, they're, you know, and the list goes on, everybody's got their own idea. And for me, just maybe this is, you know, my background or how I was raised, I think generally there's going to be a prosaic explanation for what these things are.

But, you know, we're finding new things all the time. Every year we're finding hundreds and hundreds of new specimens. You know, we're pulling a celicamp out of the Indian Ocean, you know, not just too long ago that thought was to be extinct for millions of years. And we're finding all kinds of new humanoids. we're finding, you know, the hobbits or the Holoflorencis, and we're finding all sorts of new things. And so I think it's important to keep an open mind as to what these might be. And, you know, I think you have to filter out some of the online negativity and trolls. And it's just something I don't like to read the comments too much, because I know that they don't even have enough basis or understanding of the,

the basics of this to make a comment. Whereas like, oh, these are, for Meshay, you know, these are, you know, whatever, and they're not. It's just great to have these discussions because like our last interview, the last interview we did, and Luke, we've devoted our lives to this now,

so what we do all day. They bought a farm in the Ozarks and they can't even get their four-wheelers into this area. They're walking through their property and they see little tiny footprints in the mud. And they're like, you know, these are the stories we hear. And then the next episode is,

look at these things. You know, they have three fingers, and there's little tiny ones. And you're like, okay, this oddly lines up. You're talking about previous guests as there's little footprints in the middle of, and like thick stuff that you can't even, a human can't even barely get into.

And then here you're describing these little creatures. It's like, I think the problem is, is it's not one story, particularly that blows the hole in a lot of these narratives. It's like you have to piece them all together like a weird pizza and say, look, well, this story and this story, this story. And then you start to see, okay, there's something here. And I think that's why, like, the podcast format, because, you know, if you listen to it in order, you kind of go, okay, all these stories sort of, they're not the same, but they kind of have similar, you know, little tiny things. And that's hard for the scientist because it's like, well, I'm just looking at this one particular body, this one

particular footprint or fingerprint i can't i can't bring all this other stuff into it but it takes more of i guess an art artistic mind to kind of put all these pieces together and go look there's there's all this anecdotal evidence that this creature is a thing um but for the most skeptic i mean looking at an x-ray is this is as good as it gets right like how what else you what else do you want what else can you actually ask for yeah you're right it's it it's it's it's it's where the evidentiary bar is. And it's getting me, it's really difficult. And I'll tell you, you know, when you talk about these little bodies,

last weekend, we were invited to Monterey, Mexico, to look at this little body that, you know, it's in a fetal position, curled up, about the size of a racquetball. And we CTed it, we x-rate it, and it's a fascinating little thing. And there's stories of, like you said, There's footprints and little people. And I've looked at one.

Now, what it is, gentlemen, I don't know. Is this a human fetus that has, you know, multiple genetic abnormalities? Yeah. Maybe. I mean, that's, you've heard of the Atacama, I'm sure, skeleton that, you know, about six or eight inches tall that was studied. And they took it to Stanford. And they said, well, yeah, it's a human fetus that has, I think it was 60s.

or some very large number of genetic abnormalities. And maybe that's what this thing is too. And it looked a heck of a lot like that, Atacama skeleton. And there's more. There's several of them. Why are there several of these things? Are these a different genetic, actual biological creature? Or are, you know, was an ancient culture bearing their miscarried bodies of their children

that had genetic abnormalities and couldn't make it, you know, through pregnancy or died very shortly thereafter. I don't know, but I can tell you, these were once-living creatures because I've looked at them under CT. I've looked at them under X-ray with one of the best in the biz, and they're real, they're something real. And like I said, we keep getting these things. That was one of my dad, and I said, hey, we're free this weekend. We'll do it. And so we went down and took a look at that. And we've got two or three more that we've been asked to two or three more things that we've been asked to look at.

And it's been really fascinating. We're trying to, you know, sort through things that because we want to look at things that are, you know, current testable novel. And to find, you know, a team of guys that are the best to go look at these and to keep an open mind. And if these things are BS, I want to be first in line to say, it's BS. Here's what it is. We've explained it. This is what the answer is.

And it's, you know, it's a llama school or whatever, you know, ideas are. You know, I'll be first in line to say that. Because once again, I don't have a dog in the fight other than let's get to the truth because these are incredible forensic mysteries. And there's tons out there. It's amazing that you said, like up to 100 is wild, maybe 100 or more. I mean, so my question then is, what's next, Josh? I mean, you guys have gone to Peru.

I know that some of the articles on Daily Mail talked about a congressman named Tim Burchett from our state here in Tennessee, who actually we have a bit of familiarity with because he sits on the House Oversight Committee on the UAP hearings and has met with a few, with one of our guests about questions to ask of whistleblowers, et cetera, which is a wild story of itself. But what happens next, right? I mean, obviously you want to be, you want to, I know you said before, you want to level up the testing on this, but how does that, what does this go next in this investigation of the Naskamami? And that's great question. There's a plan in place. I do know that members of Congress are familiar with this issue. And if just even a week, week and a half ago, Jaime Moussan was talking to Timber chat.

Jaime posted the video online. You can find a good portion of their conversation. there's some interest in these. And it's interesting that a lot of the people that are open-minded on the UAP hearings, you know, Luna and Moskowitz and Burchett, and the list goes on, are maybe some of the same parties that might be interested in these bodies. And once again, I'm not saying that these are extraterrestrial. But what I am saying is they're a forensic mystery, and they're weird, and they deserve to be studied.

And we need to get to the bottom of it. And, you know, I think that's great. It's if we don't keep an open mind and if we're not willing to look at the weird to figure out what it is, we're not going to advance. You know, at the turn of the century, you know, a platypus gets shipped back to England. And, you know, the scientists there are like, come on, give you a break, right? This beaver's got a, you know, duck bill. It lactates, it's got poisonous, you know, claws, and it makes no sense. And it's a great corollary or analogy as to what is this thing?

Is it something that's unknown and new and it needs to be investigated, or is it something that's a very, very elaborate hoax? And that's what we tend to find out. And so next is, you know, if members of Congress want to get involved, powerful people that I believe are genuine and earnest and wanting to get to the truth on things. And then second is getting Peru on board and saying, hey, we want to work with you. It's a collaborative effort. This isn't something that we want to disappear. This is something we want to study.

and then once we find out the answer, then the people in charge down there, the Ministry of Culture, can figure out what's appropriate to do with these specimens. That's not my... You guys are you going to go back? I mean, you have plans to go to return? Or are you kind of waiting on what happens

with sort of the political aspect? Well, yeah, so there's a big political aspect. There's a couple lawsuits that have been filed down there. One of those is by Hamim Mousan. There's actually some others that have been filed. and the next step is dealing with the Peruvian government. What do you think their take is? Do you think they want this stuff out or no?

No. My take is no. And, you know, I don't want to talk out of school too much. I've, when that meeting happens, I'm going to be in the room. I've been asked to be there and with the Peruvian government. And, you know, I'm going to bring the science. And hopefully the scientists with me. to explain, well, why it's important.

And it's a developing issue, and it's something that I'm really excited about, because it's just getting to the bottom of what this is. And, you know, I don't think they want them to leave. And I think part of that was we see that with the press conference in January, where they bring these obviously fake bodies out and say, nope, they're all fake. And that made it into mainstream media. If you do a Google search on the bodies, you know, most of the first searches are going to be, you know, debunked and fake bodies. And it's like, well, yeah, because you've looked at, you know, a very small percentage of obviously faked.

Yeah, the lie gets around the world where the truth puts his pants on or whatever they say that the old, the old saying, you know. It's like, why is that? It's like the lie, the one fake story is what everyone knows, but the 10, like, you know, actual truth. These are biological anomalies, doesn't. That never sticks. It's always the hoax that sticks. And that's kind of why I've been blogging about it.

And, I mean, you look at some of the new articles. It's in, you know, these tabloid-type magazines. It's making it into the New York Post or into the Daily Mail or, where have you, and it's funny to me that these are the journalists that are taken out serious. And this weekend, there was a great piece in the Daily Mail. Well, people I have a Daily Mail. It's a gossip rag. But, you know, the author, Matthew Phelan, took it seriously.

He did his research. He did, you know, he got an interview with my father. I granted him an interview because I believe that he, he, you know, he got an interview. because I believe that he was going to write an earnest piece about this. Because what, the New York Times and the Washington Post isn't calling me. But this weekend, I got multiple media requests to talk about this, but it still wasn't the LA Times, the New York Times, or the Washington Post. But they should be looking at this because if they knew the real truth of this,

instead of this manufactured, where they've tried to conflate and confuse the issue, I think they'd understand a lot more. And even the press conference we held, and when we were down there, Hyman Mousan had a press conference, and we were asked to be there. The Ministry of Culture busts down the doors.

It's crazy. Yeah, I saw the video. They bust in like it's a SWAT team or something. Yeah. Federal Prosecutors, Ministry of Culture, and multiple armed, policemen bust into the room. And, you know, the hopes was to collect a body. And there was no body there because I think there's a lot of smart people that are working on it and know what to

expect. But they came in and interrupted the press conference. And why? Is it because they believe it's cultural patrimony of the, you know, Peru, probably. That's a good part of it. But also, did they want to give it the Smithsonian treatment? We experienced this in, at Machu Picchu. We had a group of people. We were talking about something. Next thing you know, we got in trouble. And a bunch of radios guys come around. They were going to kick us out of Machu Picchu just because we didn't have an official tour guide, even the official narrative of the official whatever it is. So we had to like call in some locals to help us get out of the situation. So it's just, it's dumb. It's just it's like what? Just a group of like 40 people in Machu Picchu having a conversation? No, you cannot do that here. which is so straight. It's just people don't think this stuff happens. It happened to us.

And we're nobody, you know, so. I want to iterate this is that I think it's so important to work you guys are doing because whatever happens with things on the, on the fringes in these spaces, is that it becomes sort of like shoddy work, right? Which you can easily poke holes in. And what I think things like these enigmatic things like the NASCAR mummies, and like other things, even like you're talking about the Bigfoot sort of dilemma or. things you're getting reached out to is there, to date, not too many or any people have actually

applied the scientific method to these things to get real actionable data. So you can put together a real case for this. And so then it remains. And yeah, then it remains in this like, you know, this amorphous space that isn't, that people can't really take seriously. And so I think it's so important. Like, and I love that you guys are taking such a pragmatic and regimented approach to this because people deserve to know. And as in like we said it maybe a couple times in the show, it's really a blessing in Peru and not here. It's a blessing that in a sense that you can do these things to the extent you can or have so far. But also that you guys are being, you know, so empirical about the data because the data is what was important, right? People are always going

to try to debunk things that break their paradigms. That's just the nature of humanity. There's a physical reaction where you're just like, I don't have space for this. So it's not real. But to build a case for this and to actually get hard answers, either direction, to it being a modified human that was, you know, digits removed and head shaped, etc. to it being, you know, finding biologics of something that isn't human. But it helps a lot of people who've had these stories and have heard these stories and actually can go, this isn't made up. This isn't fake. I mean, it helps. corroborate so many other things, experiences that people have had.

It's credibility, right? Like, if you can point to it, and as you said, I mean, I loved it, peer reviewed, to a peer-reviewed, to a peer-reviewed conclusion of the data and the study. I just think that this work is so important, and I'm so glad it's not happening. We just live in a world where science is happening in, like, dark alleys and backrooms now because people are so afraid to do science in public. Well, because science is funded.

Because science here is funded by, they work reverse. There's our conclusion. and work backwards. Here's the money, right? I mean... What are you guys doing in there? We're doing some science. No.

Well, not allowed. And I'm glad to hear that from both you guys. I think you really hit the nail on the head. That's the real issue. Is let's just get to the bottom of it. Let's use science. Let's figure it out. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Let's not do anything where we're doing backroom science. And we're sending around, you know, samples that have been collected from who knows where and sending them to XYZ LAC, and, you know, oh, here's the result. We've got the conclusion. That's not how science is done. There's methods to it.

And what you do is you get the best and you put them together and you get a team and you come up with conclusions and you follow the scientific method. And then you send it out for peer review and you come up with an answer. And even then, still it needs to be subject to, you know, future studies and future scrutiny. Yeah. Well, Josh, if you ever want to put the law hat down and take some tours down there and take some blurry fans with you, we'll be the first to go on one of your wild excursions to see all this stuff because I think a lot of people want to see it for themselves. And if you do ever do a tour, let us know. We want to go to the caves. It's quite a hike, too, I've been told.

Yeah. Again, thanks for the time here. Yeah, I appreciate it. What you did. And honestly, you're welcome back anytime. I'd love to have you back when you have some more updates on this, or if you end up finding things out, about others and other spaces and you guys are doing your forensic work.

You're always welcome back on blurry creatures. We love these conversations. These are important conversations, I think. As much as the work you're doing it, I think is paramount in providing actionable data. These conversations about getting to the truth and procedurally how that's happening and what's happening.

Great for the time, man. So, again, tell our listeners where, I know you say you're moving your blog, but where they can follow your work and then, man, you want to jump back and tell us about you got you got DNA from Bigfoot or whatever they're having you work on you you are welcome back in this space man it's been it's been fun to have you no i appreciate it fellas so um my ex is at pike's peak law um and uh you can follow me there that's where i released that

video of those new bodies that video sent to me and you can go check that video out um right now they're currently on my my law firm's blog macdwell macdell firm dot com go to my blog to my blog look for the NASCAR mummies. There's a lot of stuff on there. You can read about DUIs and lie detectors. All sorts of stuff. That's probably interesting to your listeners. But I'm going to move those off.

We are starting a new blog at the insistence of my SEO guys that I need to do that in a different location. So it's going to be ForensicX.com. And I'm going to be moving my blog over there and do blogging about some of the other things that we've been looking at. and Josh, Igu. We've got a list of things that we're doing. We've got a lot of really cool stuff that isn't in the media yet. Let's go. All right, man.

You got us running over there now. Yeah, we appreciate it. You need a good defense attorney and you're in the Denver area. Colorado Springs is where I. Colorado, sorry, the Colorado Springs area. I digress. Josh is your guy who also happens to be an expert on the NASCAR Mummies. That's quite the package.

I don't know there's another, I don't know there's another defense attorney to contain that in the United States or anywhere, maybe Peru, but that's a stretch. Yeah, the anomaly of the three-fingered creatures of Peru. I'm trying to think of here, I don't know how to market this show, but it's definitely, like, it's interesting. Rumor is, Luke, there was some guy in the 70s that could throw a real nasty curveball with three fingers, but I'll let you look into that, you know what I mean? Raleigh, was his name Raleigh?

I don't know. Anyway, well, Josh, thanks, man. Yeah, Josh. Appreciate it, Brian. It was a pleasure. And happy to do it. Nice to make you, Alice. Yeah.

Appreciate it, bro. Thanks, man. Take it easy. Thanks for time. See you, Josh.