Blurry Creatures - EP: 284 The Divine Council with Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Joel Muddamalle to explore the fascinating concept of the Divine Council. Drawing on ancient texts, biblical theology, and cultural insights, Dr. Muddamalle unpacks the idea of God’s heavenly court—an assembly of spiritual beings tasked with carrying out his divine purposes. How does this framework shape our understanding of the unseen realm? What does it reveal about God's relationship with humanity? COSTA RICA TICKETS! https://www.eventcreate.com/e/costarica2025 You can get our book of Enoch here: https://amzn.to/3xriiUB Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com & Parker Mogensen Outro Song: On the Run by TimeCop1983 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog's,

needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right? That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA. And thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it. I'm giving it to our two dogs. You know, I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting rough greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less, they're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old.

And Rough Green's really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. The framework of Scripture is kingdom. You've heard Tim said multiple times. Kingdom of Heaven. The Basileas Tautau Theo, that Greek word Basileas, like, that was used everywhere. That better probably translated empire. So you have kingdom language.

Well, every king has very central components of what that. Can you have a king without a kingdom? Why is it that we have this guttural reaction to resist the reality of other cosmic beings out there? Like, you can't have your pie and eat it too. We're going to release a special episode this week for those out there that have not been to one of our conferences. Let me give you a little taste. This is Dr. Dr. Jail Matamale. We did a trip last year to Costa Rica, and we're going back again.

And there's still tickets available, and you can get those right now at blurry creatures.com. Head over to the website, click the banner. There's still a handful of tickets left to Costa Rica 2025. That's right, Nate. For the first time in months and months, there's actually a couple of VIP tickets available. if you'd like to join us for an outdoor amazing excursion. Of course, you and I and the uncomfortable Timothy Albarino, along with Dr. Joel Motamale, are going to spend some time adventuring in Costa Rica,

and then there'll be a private party just for our VIPs. The day before the conference, of course, this is our second year going to Costa Rica. Pura vida, my friend, this is going to be a fun one. This year's going to be different because we're going to be having more vacation style. We're going to be hanging out with you and the guests doing nightly bonfires games, and it's going to be kind of a mix between a conference, and hang out. That's right.

Get your party shirt ready because we are going to Costa Rica, baby. So this conference will run over Valentine's Day. So if you've got a special someone out there and you're looking for the perfect Christmas present, this can also be a Valentine's present, gentlemen, if you like to double up on presents, join us in Costa Rica, 2025, February. There's still a few tickets left, but this is an amazing experience where we have a real casual but specific conversations around all your favorite blurry things. with Timothy Albarino and Dr. Joel Matamale.

So the alien guy and the theologian. It was a great mix last year. And this is a really good episode right in Joel's wheelhouse. You know, Nate, our show really owes a lot of, or a debt of gratitude to Dr. Michael Heiser. And one of the big things Mike talked about was the Divine Counsel. And of course, Dr. Joel Matamale is a student of Dr. Heiser. and in this session, an episode, we're going to go into the Divine Council. So this is a fun one.

This is a lot of theology that really finds itself into the blurry space. So excited to release this one and let people have a taste of what Costa Rica 2025 is going to be like. That's right. So head over to the website, BlurrierCreatures.com, grab a ticket, and airline flights are down right now. So it's a perfect time to grab a ticket. Get yourself a little vacation. Get out of the winter months, especially you guys up in Ohio near those mounds. What are you doing there all winter long?

Come hang out with us and enjoy the beaches, summertime in Costa Rica. Lett-Jolmala-Mal-A on this one. Thank you guys for supporting the show, and we'll see some of you there. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, Because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural.

This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermann event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. For those you don't know, Dr. Joel Mutamales in the house. Let's give him a... Joel maybe talk a little bit about your connection, how you met Luke, a little bit like how you got into the Blurierverse. Joel studied under Dr. Michael Heiser.

So I'm sure you have to talk a little bit about that. And then we can dive into the Divine Council. And maybe you and Luke can talk about how you guys became pals. Luke, you want to do the origin story first? I love origin stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, funny enough, we were at a conference last February, And here we are, Joel.

And at the conference, the guy that ran the conference, Amy and I, my wife, were just there just to be there, not for any other reason. And he asked me to come up and do like seven minutes on blurry creatures. And when I did, I talked a little bit about what we do and, you know, biblical worldview. You guys know the song I dance, but I did for about seven minutes. And talked about Michael Heiser and an unseen realm and stuff

because that's a really common anchor point for a lot of this. And then after that, I went to the back. to eat because there was a buffet. No irony there. But at that point, I read a Joel in the back, and he's like, hey, man, like I studied under Michael Heiser for my Old Testament doctorate. And he's like, like we were talking about.

So we just kind of hit it off there. We ended up smoking a cigar later that night and having a glass of whiskey just talking about, you know, about the Bible. And, you know, after getting to know, Joel just that night and over that weekend, I really wanted him to come on the show and talk about, he did

his dissertation on territorial spirits. It was an episode of episode 167. You can quote me if I'm wrong, but, you know, and from there, Joel became friends. He's like the coolest theologian I've ever met. He's a great guy who was very well versed in the Bible. And then, of course, you know, I really believe he's one of the folks, and we sort of say this in Jess,

but I do believe this earnestly that he's one of the folks who will carry on Dr. Hyder's legacy. There's not a lot of folks that can communicate and communicate to people that are also really brilliant theologians like Dr. Joel Mottomale and I wish I was there hanging with you guys because it's always a great time and having those late night talks with you and Tim. But that's how Joel and I met and we kind of became fast friends and friends ever since and he's been gracious enough to fit us into his schedule for a few episodes on blurry creatures.

And then also he's got an amazing book coming out in a few months here on humility. and he's a very humble guy. So there's no, that's not lost on, on us. And so I just feel, I feel like we're very fortunate to have Joel here just to talk about, you know, to have a theologian's perspective on, on blurry stuff. And he literally is the guy for the job. So, Joel, you can correct me if I missed anything there, but that was, that was it. And we got to hang out a few times since last year.

And he's got a wonderful family. And he's just a, as you guys will get to know him this week. He's the top-notch guy. He's one-of-one. Plus, he's a big MJ of a LeBron guy, which is big in my book. So we also agree on that. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think you nailed it, Luke. I think one of the things for me that was so interesting when we first met at that event is the way you were talking about blurry, and I had full transparency, I had really never heard about the blurry creatures podcast.

I don't know if I'm supposed to say that out loud. No, I really said. I didn't know what the blurry first he even was, you know? And so I'm talking to Luke. We don't know what it is, though. It's all good. I'm talking to Luke, and he's telling me about his friend Nate, and they did this podcast, and Mike was a huge part of kind of the genesis of the podcast and thinking about this. And you began to start talking about paradigm, paradigm shifts. And I began thinking, like, pretty deeply about that, because my scholarship, what I've done theologically has really

been trying to show and see that when it comes to paradigm, paradigms are so important, but paradigms themselves cannot contain all of God's wisdom, you know? And so in God's sovereignty, in his kindness, he's given us different perspectives. Like, one of the most significant pronouns, reciprocal pronouns in the New Testament is one another. It's Aalon. And Paul uses it everywhere. So whenever you're reading through the New Testament, you're reading all these letters that Paul's writing, he's al-on-al-on-l-l-on, one another. What is one another? It's a reciprocal pronoun. It means with the way that I would love you, the expectations that you would love me back, and in that is actually an invitation to exchange paradigms.

Like, you can't actually love someone if you're not able to experience their paradigm. And they can't really love you back if you're not vulnerable enough to be like, hey, here's how I'm thinking about life and the world. And so as you guys started talking about that, I was like, oh my gosh, I think this is, so important. And I know Mike and I actually had conversations. I didn't know that it was connected to blurry creatures, but he had mentioned you Luke before in Nate.

And so it was just an honor, an honor to be able to do that. And then y'all shocked me with this question about Bigfoot on my first episode. And I'm like a thought, you know, you study a lot. Like, I study a lot. And I'm like, I don't like being caught off guard. And so I felt like I really, honestly, y'all, I felt like I sucked at that first answer. No, no, no.

No, you can say, you can be honest. No, it's, I mean, you had thoughts. And you're like, they weren't good thoughts. I just want thoughts. Just give me some thoughts. I don't care. Give me something else to think about it. I want to be in your paradigm.

I want to be your friend. Yeah, we don't judge thoughts unless you have none, then we judge. So Tim Mackie, sorry about that. But, uh, you know, at least you had something, you know. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. Like, what am I actually paying for?

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When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Yeah, I want to say something real quick about Heiser and how much he meant to me. I was in like, I don't know where I was spiritually for a while there. And just Heiser's approach to things started coming on shows like ours and asking, people were asking them questions that really just encouraged me personally. and it was just such an honor to, I think we did his last interview,

but he reposted me talking about this, and I teared up when he shared it the last few weeks of his life. And I don't think this show would be here without Dr. Michael Heiser. So it's cool to get a little emotional. But just his way of talking about these things, where I was in my life at that moment was just like, I couldn't stop listening to him. I probably downloaded 30 or 40 podcasts as I was remodeling this.

last house. And at the end of listening to those, I was like, this podcast has to happen. I see this. I'm not a theologian, but there is this thread of all this other stuff I'm into. So Mike kicked off for me, the sort of the juice, as we say on this podcast, too, to start Bloy Creatures and see it go. And then, but I will, you know, just the genesis of the podcast to Mike, Mike Heiser. So, yeah, I would, he's looking down, listening.

Oh, yeah, he's in the divine counsel. right now. There we go. Look at this. A pro. A pro. I mean, Hebrews. So, I mean, I would want to maybe start with a little bit, like it's very impossible for me to even begin to talk by Divine Counsel without maybe sharing a little bit about Mike. I don't, I mean, you can even overhear some of you all talking and some of you are in Unseen Realm. You've read through it already. You're rereading it. I think Unseen Realm is going to go down as a hallmark book, Theologically. I mean, I think Mike is going to be mentioned with the likes of the J.I. Packers and the John Stott's and the Luther's, I mean, the Cal, like, it's going to be significant.

But the thing that I think is so important for you all to know about Mike, and I think we could say this as well, those of us that I've met him personally. Mike was able to seamlessly talk about Ugaritic and Semitic language text and then talk about his love for the Green Bay Packers. It was fascinating. It was, like, I've got text messages while we're going through my dissertation process, and he would be critiquing me on how I was doing some Hebrew Transcars. with some pointing stuff.

And then the very next sentence would be like, so you think the Packers can actually make it this year or no? I'm like, Mike, I'm sweating, like, looking like, is he gonna even let me pass my dissertation? And he shifts to the, and then he would go back in. And when I think about that, I actually think that what Mike was doing was actually teaching and training me to always be in a place where you're able to not take thoughts and ideas and leave them,

30,000 feet unattached to reality. But you can actually fight really hard to bring them together in such a way that they make sense in our real world, you know? So I have a quick illustration, and then we're going to get into, I think, some divine counsel stuff. I think Luke and I are going to love this. I want a poll. I'm going to do a poll of everybody that's in here.

Who's the goat? MJ or LeBron? If you think MJ is the goat, raise your hand. MJ is the goat. Y'all are my people. Yes. If you think LeBron is the goat, go ahead and raise your hand. I know.

I know. Yeah. There's a word for those of you all that want to raise your hand, but you can. It's called Exile. Theme of the Scriptures. Okay, really quick, though, really quick. Notice what I said. I want to think about precision here.

When I said goat, what did I mean? But wait a minute. I did not say greatest of all time. I said goat. I know. So how do you know that when I said goat that I'm in greatest of all time and not an animal that is hairy that is running around some cliffs somewhere? What is culture? Contacts, right?

Okay. How about this one? This is great. Welcome to seminary class with Joel. Here's another one. How about this? Who am I, when I say MJ, who am I talking about? What?

But I just said MJ. How did you know I wasn't talking about Spider-Man's girlfriend? That's right. Right? Yeah. Or your daughter. Or my daughter. Yeah.

My daughter's name, MJ, E.M.J. named after the greatest of all time, you all know. Let's go. Or a very green substance, though. I don't know about it. Really, Nate. Mary James. Mary Jane.

We don't know. We don't know. Costa Rica. I didn't do it. So quickly with all the green around. You did do it. What? So there's a little bit of a method to this madness.

Because I think one of the... of the questions is, why care about a divine counsel? Why are we going to take the next 45 minutes to an hour talking about a concept in the Hebrew Bible that isn't typically the headline news of, like, the last greatest New York Times bestselling book, wasn't like, the divine counsel of Yahweh, right? Like, why even care about it? Well, in the same way that I'm able to say a word or a phrase, and this could go on to so many things, I could say 9-11, I could say, you know, ice cream, like, you can go and go, there's a great Seinfeld skit. I know Tim's a big Seinfeld guy.

There's a great Seinfeld skit where in the episode, they talk about this crazy reality, right? Where there are these aliens. Like, I can say this in this context. This is so great. Oh, yeah, you can do it in. I love being here. Whatever.

Like, there are these aliens, and these aliens look down, and there's this planet, and when they look down this planet, they come to this incredible conclusion. They look down, they're like, there are these four-legged animals, these four-legged beings, creatures, and they're going all over there. And then there are these two-legged creatures

that follow these four-legged creatures around everywhere. And the most fascinating thing happens. These four-legged creatures drop things out of their rear ends. And every time the four-legged creatures drop something out of their rear end, the two-legged creatures get down on bended knee

and pick up the thing. And they've come to the conclusion. Clearly, the four-legged creatures run this world. They're like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Right, some are you like, and they do, actually, in your house.

That's for therapy at a different date and time. But we're seeing how important culture and context and societal understandings are. Can you imagine being stripped from an ancient worldview? God and his providence chose to work through human agents, giving them flexibility to be totally Paul, totally Moses, totally the editors of the Old Testament. Like they could be totally themselves and yet be inspired by Yahweh and the ruah of Yahweh

and connect us to an ancient worldview. So why care about the divine counsel? Because the divine counsel is actually going to help us conceptualize the fundamental understanding of the Old Testament story of Scripture. And so many times when we go through a Bible reading plan or whatever it might be and you're like, I can't make sense.

Why is there a lying spirit coming to entice? Like, what is going on here? We can't make sense of this. way is totally distinct and different, but again, he chooses out of his own will, out of his own being, I would call this phrase divine humility, to invite a family to be a part of his household. And this household happens to be a kingdom. I did my dissertation on the concept of household, and they're synonymous consistently throughout the Old Testament, Beith and Oikas, They can be used to reference an actual household or a kingdom.

Check this out. Or a temple. So what is the divine counsel? The divine counsel is God who is a king. And because he is a king, he makes the decision to reign and rule through delegates that he has that serve him. Now, we can get to some very particulars on what the actual divine counsel is in terms of hierarchy and taxonomy. me. There is an ancient context, ancient near eastern context, the Council of Al, it's Mesopotamian myth. This is my position. My position is that the Hebrew Bible is a polemic that is saying,

y'all kind of got it, but don't have it. You think you have the story of creation, but that's not actually even close. You've got fragmentary information that's out here. And so what the biblical authors are actually doing for us is to give us a cohesive understanding of the biblical text and bringing right order. I'm going to keep going back to some of the things that Tim said because it's so important. It's like ancient aliens. Yeah. Like the show ancient aliens, they do that same thing. That's more of a modern explanation, but a lot of people come on our show. They have that ancient aliens perspective. They take a little bits and pieces, try to make this whole other narrative. But in reality, they don't include Christ and in the epic of the story.

And I think that... Which gives you gaping holes. Yeah, huge holes. But there's like little bits of truth, so they've kind of fabricated this whole other explanation, but without accountability. Yeah. So the divine counsel concept is you have Yahweh who sits at the top. So this is my taxonomy of it. I think this is evidenced by the Hebrew Bible. You have Yahweh who's at the top. I hold to a Trinitarian view of Yahweh. So you've got Yahweh, the son, the spirit proceeds from the father and the son. And then you have underneath that, and these are technical terms that are used in the Bible. The Bene Elohim, the sons of God. The other language for the Beneahelaheem, the sons of God, is the princes. These are princes, they're rulers, authorities. Paul has specific terminology for them in the New Testament.

And then there's a third tier, the Malak, the Malakim, these angels, these messengers. There could be an argumentation for a similar four-tier taxonomy like the Ugaritic council. I don't know that I'm fully there with that because I think they collapse on themselves. So for instance, in Job, you've got, I say some of the stuff, sometimes in other spaces, people panic. I think you guys won't panic on this. The Hossatan that shows up, that Hebrew phrase has satan, the article is in front of the satan, where the article is present. This is a title, not a personal name. Now, we get into some kind of like, ooh, did he just say that? Is he allowed to say that? Like, we don't talk about that. And like, clearly it's the Satan figure. I think

I think you can get to the fact that this is a type of satanic figure that we'll get rolling out throughout scripture into the New Testament, but the Hebrew phrase itself is actually a divine council member. Introducing the new best skin ever ultra-slim precision concealer from Sephora Collection. It's full coverage with a matte finish and perfect for any look, whether you're building it up for a full glam moment or targeting correction for a more natural vibe. At only $12, it's great for affordable touch-ups on the go. Get this new must-have concealer at Sephora or at Sephora.com today. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one.

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And as king, he's got a council. And he's got roles and responsibilities for these council members. And so the framework of the divine council is, Al-Ai is a king, and he's got these council members that he delegates authority to. In a later session, we're going to talk about Deut Army 32 and the worldview therein of that. But this divine counsel framework is really important to understand how God works in and through humanity. So I guess one of my questions is, when did we sort of lose touch with this? And, you know, we've seen a lot of Christians kind of push back on this idea that, you know, there isn't one.

or it's sort of maybe, you know, heretical theology or some other things. You know, we see a lot of that in our channel. What do you say about that? Like, why do you think people push back on this idea? Gutteral reaction to resist the reality of other cosmic beings out there. Like, you can't have your pie and eat it too. Like, you got to kind of do both things. So how do we get to this place?

Here are a couple things that I think that have happened. Actually, I was having lunch right over there. We're having lunch, yeah. And we ended up having this conversation. I kind of have this illustration that I gave that I want to give here as well. I think what you have is consistent pendulum swings in the Christian tradition, right? You go from over-emphasizing something to over-de-emphasizing something. But I think there happened to be this perfect kind of collision of two things that happened.

And here's one of the collisions, the demythologizing of scripture. The D-Mothothal, because some of the stuff made us feel uncomfortable, right? It left us without coherent answers that we wanted to be able to give with definitiveness. And if you don't have the answer to give definitively, that makes you look weak and vulnerable. Like you don't have it altogether, right? So all this is happening. And then something else happened. It's called the Enlightenment Movement.

So look at this. The pendulum is going this way with demythologizing, and the Enlightenment Movement is rising. And I'm going to go back to what Tim said. the anthropocentric view. What is the anthropocentric view? It's a framework that believes that I'm at the center of the universe, which means I call it the unholy Trinity, me, myself, and I is all that matters. So this is what's happening. This pendulum swing is happening. And all of a sudden, you've got two sources of fuel that hit each other at the perfect exact time and explode to where we are now. And in that, we have denied the reality of real cosmic

supernatural beings, which would have been absolutely foreign to the ancient near eastern world of the Old Testament and the Greco-Roman world of the New Testament, even the early church fathers. Actually, I'm augustin for a lot of this, but I don't know if we have time to talk about that. Yeah. So what is like the sort of the smoking gun for you that there is a divine counsel? What is like the best evidence we have for this? Yeah. Oh, man.

Yeah. I used to, when I was, gosh, this was almost 15 years ago, Mike and I worked at Logos Bible Software together. Mike was scholar in residence. And my job was, I'd come in, I'd just finish my MDiv, and I helped them launch Faith Life, Faith Life Study Bible. So Mike and ended up working closely together. And I would go into Mike's office and as a punk and arrogant kid would tell him he's got everything wrong about Psalm 82. Can you imagine going into Mike Heiser's office? office and tell him he got it wrong about Psalm 82 and I did that's a big deal that's a big deal and now I would sit in his office and Mike would grin he's got a specific grin and he would just work me work like he would work me like I got worked but like it would you know work through the text and this was the big thing I'm Indian did you all know that I should just start with that I'm Indian so you know look I got you finally laughing it took almost an hour yeah took five episodes for Tim took you an hour. Thanks. Okay. I'm an easy, I'm an easy mark. Yeah. For me, it was like the pantheon of the gods. How do you have the proliferation of many

religions? How do they substantiate themselves over the course of many centuries? Here's one. But all the ancient Mesopotamian god is the god of thunder. There's iconography of him riding on a bull. guess what homeboys got in his hand a lightning bolt the god of thunder riding on a bull with a lightning bolt in his hand

sounds a lot like another deity doesn't it the Greco-Roman world who is the head of the pantheon Zeus and what is he known for he's the storm guy he's a thunder god got a lightning

what is he what is all the iconography of him a lightning in his hand We're talking across centuries. There is no Instagram or TikTok or Facebook Live to live stream one thought in one location into a totally different geopolitical place in a totally different... The probability is so impossible

unless there is a root origin story that connects dots along the way. So you believe that would die out over time if it wasn't real? absolutely you know in about 10 years nobody's going to be

talking about LeBron James I can't help myself you guys I'm so sorry I can't help myself no but I mean for real though

how is it that 2,000 years later we're still talking about a guy named Jesus eyewitness eyewitness accounts and like

let's just get super real can somebody please show me the body you all know the jury McGuire like show me the body like somebody please show me the body

they can't show us the body. Why? Because he's sitting at the right-hand mother right now. He's risen. He's risen. He's the resurrected body. We really think the Navy SEALs of the Greco-Roman rule, these legioners, these centurians, actually fell asleep. And then a massive, like a huge, massive boulder was rolled without nobody waking up.

I mean, it takes more faith, like, to believe in. And that, I mean, it's just, it's crazy to me. So, yeah, so there's a common story. It would have died out. It hasn't died out. And the presence of the world religions, it takes you back to the origin story of this divine counsel. And so I don't want to give away the Durham 32 worldview, but the divine counsel concept

is so, so important because the council does not stay obedient to the king. There are certain members of the council that decide they know better, they can do better, and they can rule better, and they deserve the glory and the unlawful. honor that only Yahweh deserves uniquely. And in so doing, they rebel. And in this rebellion, I'll argue this in my dissertation, you now have a competing war of households. You've got Yahweh's household, and you've got the household of the enemy.

And the whole goal is to proliferate division and disunity. So, I mean, I think one thing that we know about our show is there's these events and there's like a moment in time when something happens, like the Roswell crash, right? And then the whole town has like sprung up as like the epicenter for like weird aliens and this and that. But there was some people who saw it, saw the crash, saw the craft. And so you see this whole thing kind of spring up out around that. And years later, I mean, that happened, you know, almost 100 years ago. And it's still this mythology that's kind of carried on because of an actual event.

So did the Divine Counsel actually come to Earth? at some point and you know oh this is good yeah like was there like an origin of they were here and all these people saw them and so that's why it it doesn't die out yeah yeah this is a great um i had already skipped all over all the stuff i had some notes i was supposed to follow sorry podcast um why why does the story in genesis start with a cosmic mountain you're like wait a minute what mountain oh there's a mountain there we just got to read the details eden is one Mike's famous sayings, Eden is on Earth, but Earth is not Eden. Right? So Eden is a little, I don't know what little means, you know. It's a plot of land on Earth, but all of Earth is not

Eden. The opening phrase, and I'm really excited when Tim and I and Nate and Luke, we were going to interact on some different thoughts and ideas and conceptualizations. We're having some of these conversations late night already, but the opening phrase of Genesis 1 is that the Earth was, Anybody know? It was. Formulus and void. Yeah, okay. If you look at all the different translations of your Bibles, there's all kinds of different variations and nuances. There's a pro tip as you're in your Bible. Somebody actually did this for me last night in the dinner thing. She was like, hey, the Bible says this, but different translations say this. When you look at a scripture and you've got different translations of the same verse, this is a key for you to know that the translators are having

a heck of a time trying to figure out how to determine and accurately describe an ancient Hebrew word that might be a loan word from Acadian or different languages. So here's an example. I'm Indian. My wife is white. She's back there somewhere early on in our dating. Like before Netflix, we do Bollywood videos with subtitles. You all know about subtitles, right? Before that, like, we would watch Bollywood movies, which are Indian movies, Bollywood, okay? And there'd be a joke. We'd all be laughing, but it's in Telugu, she doesn't speak Telugu. So she would look at us like, hey, can anybody let us in on the joke? Y'all know what happens as soon as you try to translate a joke from one language to another?

Ain't funny no more. Right. So just, this is important information to keep in the back of our mind as we're reading the Bible. Again, fascinating thought. The Bible was not written in English. Okay? Here's another one. This one might hurt some feelings.

I just can't help myself. Like, the first translation, like, the first authoritative translation of the Bible is not the King James Version. The 1611 is not, like, the Dead Sea Scrolls weren't even around by the time the KJ, like, they haven't even been found by the times that KJV has been, you know, already been. It's basically focusing on the Latin translation of Jerome's Vulgate. So anyways, we can go into that. Some people are going to be mad at me.

I might not be able to come back. All of that to say, when we get to that Genesis 1 passage, the Hebrew phrase is, is Toho va Boho. So yes, it's formless and empty, but can also be translated as wasteland and wilderness. I'm really excited for when Tim tells you his idea of why there's a wasteland and wilderness.

If you read birthright, you already know. Why is this important? Because in this context, God is a God of order. He will not deal with the disorder. He's always going to step in and create order. Think about this in Genesis 1 and 2. He creates order through a series of separations.

the establishment of boundaries is actually the implementation of order. Boundaries don't come into existence after the fall. They're present prior to the fall. Because a king has order in his kingdom, otherwise it is chaotic. So there's order. The Garden of Eden, the language, the description of the Garden of Eden, is actually on a mountain because the rivers are flowing down. And then elsewhere in Isaiah and Jeremiah,

The same garden is referenced as the holy mountain of God that's on top of the holy mountain of God. Why is all this so important? The ancient near eastern world understood that God met with his family on the mountains, on the mountain tops. Why is it that you've got Mount Sinai is a place that Moses is hanging out? Why does the Mount of Transfiguration, why is it on the Mount? This is the place where Eden is a mountain. God's human family is on Eden. Who else is in Eden?

His supernatural family. His cosmic family. Why does Eve not freak out when the Nakash shows up? The issue isn't that the fact that the Nakash was there. It wasn't an issue of the appearance. It was the substance of what came out of the mouth of the Nakash. And the same issues are happening right now. We're being deceived because the appearance looks good,

but something can look good and still be absolutely evil. This is interesting because I think a lot of times on the show, you know, like Luke and I went to Peru, Tim, and we're up on Machu Picchu, right? And it's like, in the modern times it's hard to get to. Why are they building civilization on a mountaintop? Yeah. And so if they're counterfeiting and they're rebelling,

then they're going to want to create an alternate Eden, right? So they're all going to claim different mountains around the world and do their thing, right? Well, think about the Council of the Gods. If they go into rebellion, we're totally tiptoeing into Geronanthirtia worldview. If they are going to rebellion

and they know that Eden is a mountain, well, they're going to create territorially different Edens. Exactly. That's what I was thinking. Like, of course they're going to be a mountain. Mount Olympus. I mean, you know, it's fast. Like, there's nothing new underneath the sun.

Mount Olympus. Why does this battle, this is another massive one. Why is Elijah on top of a mountain having a battle with Baal. It's cosmic warfare. It is cosmic warfare. And there's a whole kinds of issues with cosmic geography,

which I think is our next session. But yeah, absolutely. This divine counsel has serious implications because if God has his family and his household on a mountain, and because of the rebellion of humanity and these supernatural beings, these cosmic beings, take place, and there's a consequence, that, now you've got the presence of cosmic beings who are trying to build counterfeit

households. Yeah, yeah. They want counter, well, where are they going to go on top of mountains? Why? Because that's what Yahweh had. And they're freaking jealous of Yahweh. This is the whole narrative of the serpent, you know, in Ezekiel and in Isaiah, like, why do we have these parallel passages?

Because the serpent looked on the mount of God and he wanted to be God. He wanted the throne for himself. and in so doing went into full-bone rebellion. Yeah, I mean, and it's evident on our show that they were not, not only were they choosing a location, a mountain, but they're building the same objects on the mountain, building pyramids or building megalithic structures. They're all building similar things.

So it's like, you know, it's sort of copying is the highest form of flattery, right? But they, they, there is a knowledge and they're all sort of, And that is always a question on our show. Why mountains and why pyramids and why the same? How did they all have the same knowledge all over the world? At a time when, like you said, they don't have TikTok. They don't have Facebook Live. They don't have a way to communicate.

But they all are doing the same thing in the same way. So did one? How does that information pass? Yeah. Right? So how does that information pass? This is where Genesis 6 and the Anakic tradition is incredibly important. The information passes because it's,

these rebellious sons of God, take the information and they go to different places of the land to try to steal it and take it for their own. There's a whole backstory to that, but we'll get to that in a different session. Yeah, I mean, it just makes you wonder if they all came down, chose their, at one point, they were here and set up their little shop. So I think they were actually allotted. Okay. Yeah, so this is going to be Diderarmi 32, eight and nine, right in light of the depth of the Keeps him telling in to do the Romney 32. I can't, it's like, they're so close together. I'm trying to alley up here for you.

You want me to, but I think we have a whole different session. Joel, Joel, Joel, Joe, I, I, uh, I'm curious. I think one of the questions you hear people that push back are like, why does God need a counsel? Oh, yeah. And I don't know if we, I think that's an important thing because I, and I worded that way intentionally because he doesn't need it, but I think that's always the thing, right? And then, and then how do you interpret the language of like, you know,

a lot of times I think people can misconstru certain language as being Trinitarian when really it's divine counsel language. Can you talk about that for those two things for a second? Yeah, Genesis 1.26 and 27. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, so let's start with the first one. Why does God need a divine counsel? Well, you answered it Luke brilliantly. He doesn't. He doesn't. He doesn't need a divine counsel. But in his providence and in his wisdom, he chooses to do it. I think this should actually be something that elicit. it's love from us, his children, because this is, again, an expression of divine humility.

God wants to be in a relationship with his children. He wants us to experience the beauty and the blessing of doing real work that is of worth of value and consequence. He's not going to rob us of that, right? Like, imagine, like, you with your own children. You're not going to rob them from some of the best experience. It's like, hey, let's go to Disneyland or let's go, to this great theme park, wherever you might go and be like, oh, cool, you saw everything, we're leaving? How cruel would that be? Some of you're like, we've done that. I know. Again, therapy is great. Haven't seen the Yeti on the Matterhorn. Yeah. You know, like, so God doesn't need a counsel, and yet God chooses by his divine right. He's a king.

Right? So again, even our political understanding sometimes, we, our view, our conception is like, well, are we going to all vote for who's going to be like king in heaven? No. Because God is king. There is no voting system that's up there. He is king and we are citizens of a kingdom. And because we're citizens of a kingdom, citizens have roles and responsibilities. The role and responsibility is to reflect the goodness and the greatness and the grandeur of that king that we submit to. But here's the deal. There is a competing false ruler that is trying to con us into joining his false kingdom.

And if we participate in those things, we are not reflecting the goodness of God's kingdom. We're perpetuating the evils of a false kingdom. So one thing is, no, God does not need a consul in. yet he chooses to work through a council. Luke, you're asking, what was the second thing that you asked? It was about the language, right? I think that's important.

Oh, the let us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so in Genesis, you might have heard this. Well, clearly, it's a Trinitarian language. It says, well, God says, let us create. So clearly, let us create, and our likeness and image has to be Trinitarian. Well, it can't be. And if you look at almost any commentaries that are updated to this date,

all of the Hebrew grammar shows that phrase is directly connected to a divine announcement proclamation. So here's the example, and Mike gets into it in his book. I'm like, hey, a bunch of people are starting to get hungry. Hey, let's grab some pizzas. You're like, yeah, let's grab some pizzas. And then me and Nate walk out and we go and grab the pizzas and we bring it back. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, Use Indeed sponsored jobs.

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Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. So we announced, we proclaimed something but the action that's done is actually done by Nate and I that walk out to do the action. So Gordon Wenham is an Old Testament scholar, so he calls this a divine proclamation. This is a king who is proclaiming in his council that he is about to do something and he makes that announcement to the council.

Now, if you look at Genesis 1, 26, and 27, some of the stuff that Tim was talking about, it's then very specific in order to contradict any thought, right, about exactly what is happening. So it says, and they were made in the likeness of God, of Yahweh. They were made in his likeness and in his image. Those two Hebrew words, likeness and image are Shalem and Damut. They're used all throughout ancient Near Eastern literature to describe children of the royal divine king. They're used all throughout scripture that those two Hebrew words are in translation English, likeness and image. Dehmut and Shailam.

They're used to describe the children of the children. of the divine king. So, who are Adam and Eve? They're children of the king. There's another one, Psalm 82. If you want,

we can get it, Psalm 82. Yeah. That's what all starts, right? Yeah, that's where, that's, yeah,

this is like the, the big one. So here, like, if you, you know, your Bible, you got it,

it says, God, I'll do some transliteration for you. God, Elohim, stands in the divine assembly. Huh.

Assembly language is everywhere. That phrases Eladda. He pronounces judgment among the gods, this is Elohim. He pronounces. So this preposition is plural, gods is plural, yet the first Elohim is singular.

You can't have a singular Elohim in the presence of non-multipal beings or people. It doesn't work in grammar. So that phrase, Elohim Nizabba'at at a hell, it means that God, Elohim, singular, is in the midst of the divine assembly

and he's judging these Elohim, who are these Elohim? These are the fallen sons of God. Now, in various traditions, because of focus of demythologizing, they'll say, well, these judges, these Elohim, are human rulers. They've got to be human rulers. You don't even need to know Hebrew or Greek to see how incoherent this is. Look at this. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?

Provide justice for the need and the fatherless, uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute, rescue the poor and the needy, save them from the power of the wicked. This is an indictment against these Elohim. So if these Elohim were Trinitarian, we've got all kinds of issues here. Why would Yahweh be critiquing and reprimanding the other two members of the godhead?

So clearly that's out of the picture. So now it's like, okay, they've got to be human rulers because we don't want there to be a supernatural reading. Let's keep reading. They do not know or understand. They wander in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. Verse 6, it says this, you are Elohim.

Plur Elohim. You are all sons, Beni, of the most high. These supernatural beings are called children of God. But then look at this. Look at the consequence of their actions. However, you will die like humans and fall like any other ruler. it is incoherent and makes absolutely no sense for the consequence. If these Elohim were earthly rulers for their consequence to die like humans.

Guess what? You're already human. You're going to die. Why would that be an appropriate consequence? It just is incoherent. Now, if these Elohim are part of the divine counsel, they've gone rebellious. We're going to talk about this in Deuthram 3, 8 through 9, and then 4, 19 through 20. Now this starts to make sense. Because now their judgment is an association with humanity and humanity's judgment. And then this is just a little fascinating tidbit at the very end. This entire scene is a divine counsel scene.

And the way it's directed, think about a theater, like if this was like a theater kind of play, and imagine this entire time Luke was actually not on the screen, but Luke was actually off screen over here. He's listening to the whole thing happening, right? Look at the very end of this. However, you'll die like humans and fall like any other ruler. And then verse 8, rise up Elohim. This is singular.

Why would there be a singular Elohim that's told to rise up? Rise up, Elohim. Judge the earth for all the nations belong to you. Who is this? Jesus, Yeshua. This is the pre-incarnate son. Who is standing in the divine council, this concept, Tim and I, I will probably talk about this,

two powers in heaven idea, who's right here in the divine counsel. And by the way, what happens on the cross is actually the judgment that takes place. And the consequence of the cross is the reunion

and the restoration of the nations of God. Jew and Gentiles coming together into one family. It is in, it just, and typically you all should know this, I'm not this like, it just, but with this I am because it just can't.

Like, for almost, almost anything else, I'm like, you know, like, yeah, I could be wrong. I would be shocked if I was wrong about this one. I just, it's incoherent. It just doesn't make sense for it to be human rulers. It can't be. Just like Genesis 6 can't be human rulers, but we'll talk about that. Let's go.

And is this, okay, is this, obviously you were, you know, preaching and you're more involved in the church, and is this coming back? I mean, is this, when did. You know, it seemed as though the ancients knew this. They understood this worldview. We lost it for a while. Now it seems to be kind of making a resurgence through, you know, people starting to ask these questions and seeing these verses and not just writing them off.

Well, here's why I think we lost it. I actually have a, I'm supervising two PhDs right now that are doing some work in Divine Counsel, Unseen Realm and stuff, which is super exciting to know that Mike's work is going to continue through other dissertations. One of the people that I'm advising, his thesis is this question, what you just described,

where did we lose the Divine Counsel understanding from a, his major, his emphasis is historical theology. So historically, where did we lose it? I have a thought, I'm excited for him to do his work on this because he'll be able to, I think, scholarly way, prove it academically. But Augustine is one of the most

prolific and important early church fathers. He writes so, I mean, you know, city of God, it's very, very important. One of the things that Augustine himself is incredibly down on himself for is his inability to ever learn Hebrew. He's excellent. He specializes in rhetoric, right? He's excellent in Greek, excellent in Latin. He just didn't know Hebrew.

And he laments this fact. Well, it makes a lot of sense why. he takes a human ruler view when he's looking at the Septuagint, the Greek translations of Psalm 82, Psalm 89, Genesis 1, 26, and 27. He just doesn't have access to this. He breaks thought and understanding of a divine counsel in Pantheon and the Hebrew grammar that helps to see that this can't be human rulers. So I think what happens is there's a chain reaction of influence right there with Augustine and some other early church fathers. But then you have people like Irenaeus and Turtulian who absolutely take a supernatural worldview, you know?

So even amongst those early church fathers, you have competing understandings. I just think Augustine is just incredibly influential, and after that, that becomes the normative kind of understanding. But we'll find out in about three years, whether I'm right or not. I'll let you know with the dissertation. Joel, I have another question on this.

We're sitting here, right, and it's like you do some things, like you do some theology talks on Instagram. We do these theology, two. Tuesdays, I believe, or Thursdays. I can't remember which T-day it is. But, like, you know, we've gone through this exercise, not theologically breaking down divine counsel. Like, why does this matter?

Right, because we're sitting here in the, you know, this is blurry creatures. We talk about creatures and all this weird stuff. Maybe it's implicit, but, you know, why does this matter? Because, you know, people will say, it's like, okay, that could be the case, doesn't matter, like, you know, as long as you're saved, as long as you have Jesus. Well, yes.

But from like a paradigm standpoint, why does this matter so much, in your opinion? Yeah, I think it matters one, because it reminds us that God is a God who is inviting interaction with his children. He's delegating role and responsibility. We were not created to sit and twiddle our thumbs and have no aim or ambition. I think there was a question earlier. I'm like, well, what is the purpose? What is the goal?

I go personally back to Genesis 1 and 2 and I look at the command for Adam and Eve in Eden I go back to this thought that Eden was on Earth but all of Earth was not Eden so the y'all got me really nerding out when God tells Adam and Eve to guard Eden the Hebrew word for guard is Shamar

S-H-A-M-A-R we think of this this idea like oh, they're farmers. How cute. They get to cultivate the garden. Must be nice. This is the exact same word that's used of the watchman on the watchtower in Nehemiah.

This is the exact same word that's used to the Levitical priests to guard the holiness of the temple of God. Remember what I said earlier, and if Tim's thesis is true of something else that happened prior to Genesis 1, I'll let him talk about. that. There's real enemies outside of Eden. How the heck does a Nakash get in, sneak itself in, and Adam and Eve engage in conversation when they should have been shamaring Eden. This is dereliction of duty. So it matters because it reminds us consistently that there is one a consequence to our disobedience. And that consequence is never individual exclusively. It always has corporate and communal implications. I was reading an ancient, I don't even, I don't know if he's ancient, but a rabbi scholar,

Abraham Heschel, a brilliant, brilliant scholar who died recently. And rabbinic, though, just phenomenal man. And he had this thought that I just never thought of. He said, God created Adam and Eve out of the dust of the ground. He breeds the breath of life into Adam. Adam and Eve. Y'all, Adam, you and I were never intended for our bones to decay back in dust. The earth has to receive our death as a consequence of our sin. Earth never asked for that? Creation never asked for that? That's why Romans 8 talks about the whole earth is groaning.

There's an actual consequence to what has taken place. And so I think that. think the divine counsel paradigm is incredibly important because it reminds us that God is a good God who's framed as a father and because he's framed as a father all these familial terms that you and I are children of God. God always intended to have a two-family household. These angelic, these supernatural cosmic beings were part of the family of God. They had roles and responsibilities. We see this in the taxonomy of sons of God versus the messengers or if you have a craftsman group, you can include those in there as well. It doesn't matter. Regardless, this, there's role and purpose.

And when one, just one, fall out of role, fall out of purpose, it has a compound impact on everybody else. And so it drastically matters. Here's the other thing that's fascinating. Adam and Eve, when they're sent out of Eden, they're banished for their good. Right? God is unwilling to compromise a immediate compassion for eternal punishment.

So in doing that, he sends them out of Eden. In sending them out of Eden, he clothes them. Well, the language of clothing is incredibly important. That word for clothing is the same word that's used of kings who would clothe their royal children and send them out to do mission, to do vocation, to do work. Adam and Eve's work and vocation wasn't destroyed after the fall. It just became increasingly more difficult. But God and his compassion still equips them.

And y'all know this narrative, that he clothes them with what? Skins. Where do skins come from? animals. I have a question. What was part of Adam Adams specifically based off the text? What was Adam's role with those animals? Say that again. Y'all, we do not name things we don't love. Can you imagine? This is my boss Lisa Turkers has taught me this.

To put ourselves as best as we can into the human reality of the text. So I'm presupposing some thoughts and some ideas. here, but I think it's a helpful exercise. Can you imagine the overwhelming guilt and consequence that Adam and Eve felt when they heard the death of that first innocent animal? The weight of the impact of failing to be faithful children of God and the impact that it had on an innocent animal. Never asked for this. If I'd ever write a fiction book, I think I'd want to write a fiction book from the narrative standpoint of these animals in Eden. Can you imagine what their first things are?

Like, these knuckleheads? Can you believe they have one role in response? They didn't even do that. Now one of us has to die? Who was it that died on a cross as the innocent lamb of God? To cover our sins. To clothe us. This is Paul's language in the New Testament.

To clothe us in Christ Jesus. To clothe us in Christ Jesus. all of the echoes of scripture, these are seeds that are being planted in order for you and I to hear them in the New Testament, hear them elsewhere in Scripture. If we are not willing in humility

to expand our paradigm, to include a cosmic reality, we're missing the high definition of the scriptures that is so vital for us. This might be a dumb question. So good. Are we part of the Divine Council? Are we specious?

she's unique. And I was thinking about something else you were saying. We've heard the term we're imagers, right? Yeah. But, you know, we just think about imagers as created in the image and the likeness of God. But I didn't, I just was thinking when you were talking about even imaging the way that God, how the sort of the kingdom of heaven lives out and plays out, we're supposed to sort of image that lifestyle in Eden.

Yeah. And I'm wondering if sort of answered my own question earlier, like, what's the point of what are we doing here? Yeah, I don't think... Are we made in image, we're all supposed to image what, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not just, we're created like that, but we're also supposed to replicate the lifestyle. Yeah, you do a lot of what I do, Nate.

You ask about five questions in one question, and now I'm feeling the pain of that, you know? Because I'm like, brain, remember, one, two, and three. I don't know if they're good. There are great questions. Let me go with the first one. The first one is about the image and likeness. This is my view, personally, that I hold.

I follow a bioethicist scholar by the name of John Kulner. He's got a great book called Dignity and Destiny. I view the image of God as an ontological status that was given to us that requires a standard to live up to. So we are made in the likeness, similar to what Tim was talking about. To me, it has nothing to do with cognition. nothing to do with creativity, has nothing to do with that. It is an ontological, real symbol that is placed upon us, that cannot be revoked.

So here's what I view it as, and I've got a paper that I've written about this. I do not believe after the fall of the image of God was broken. I don't. You know what was broken? Humanity was broken. The human was broken. Consistently throughout the scriptures you still have in humanity, made in the image of God, made in the image of God, made in the image of God. So if the image of God is a status and a standard, how does that flesh out?

We've got a blueprint. Let's say you've got a blueprint and you're building a house and the blueprint is perfect. And so, you know, they're building. All of a sudden they're building, there's a faulty foundation that they have poured the cement improperly. Now, if that faulty foundation has been poured improperly, does that mean that blueprint was faulty? No. Right? Okay. Because of the fall, the human was broken, but the status is intact. But because the human is broken, we are no longer able to live up to that status. We're not able to live up to it. This is why Christ was necessary to come in humanity, to be the firstborn amongst all of creation, to live the life that you and I could never live, to pick up where Adam and Eve left off that they failed so miserably at, so that we could regain that true humanity.

humanity, to live in our, out our true humanity, to live up to the status and standard that God had given us. Okay, then the second part is, are we part of the divine counsel? This, I haven't written much academically on it, so this is dangerous for me to say this out loud. This is just me with some friends thinking through this, right? I think one of the reasons why the angels, why these sons of God get so ticked off is because of the creation of Adam and Eve. This is just me thinking out loud with y'all. The language of these, that's what I'm here for. That's what I'm here for.

The language of these cosmic beings is that they were given rulership and authority in different spheres. Remember we talked about this council concept, that they have role in responsibility. A couple of things that are fascinating to me about it. One is we don't have in scripture, that I'm aware of, that these beings were given the status, the honorific status of being in the image of God. So can you imagine all of a sudden these humans are created? What gives them the right to have the image? We've been here doing this work the entire time.

We're the morning stars that have been singing for joy when they were created. What gives them the right to have something? Okay, so jealousy. The other thing, and this is very theoretical in my mind, other people are like, no, I totally buy into it. Cool. I'm an academic theologian, so I've got to kind of work within my framework. I appreciate the grace y'all give me.

There's not evidence that I'm aware of that these supernatural beings have the ability to multiply. They're not able to have children in their naturally ordered state. What are Adam and Eve given the commission to do? Can you think of any... I want to say something. I want to be very sensitive. I want to be very, very sensitive in how I say this, right? Because I think it's important to have compassion, how we talk about it.

But I've got some close friends. We've got some friends that have desired for so long to have their own children, their biological children. They're unable to have their biological children. And then their friends end up having biological children. And it can be a painful reality. They're trying to navigate these things. Right?

You long for this thing. and then you don't have it. What is happening here in the, I think there's real jealous, I think there's real sibling rivalry. I think there's a real reason why they're like, forget all of this. If Yahweh's not going to give me what I want,

I'm going to go out and do it myself. Why does the Nakhash suggest to the serpent to go and to eat of this fruit of itself? In doing so, humanity loses the very thing that they're already in. Their true humanity. Their humanity's broken in the process. That's the dissoning.

seat of sin. It presents itself as pure and beautiful. It just places you in a prison of your own making. So yeah, I think they're part of the divine counsel. And I think that's probably the origin story of this significant conflict in the Genesis 6 narrative of why they come and they take human women. Which, by the way, I hope, I probably shouldn't say that. Should I say it? I think I said to see you guys on a call. The Hebrew grammar of Genesis 6 of they see and the take the desire is the humor grammar is the grammar of abuse. It's rape. It's the exact same phrasing that's used of David and Beth Sheba. It's the exact same Hebrew phrasing that's used of the garden when Eve looks, she desires, and she takes something that doesn't belong to her. It's the

exact same phrase that's used in Genesis, oh, I'm forgetting the passage, but Lot, when there's this passage between Abraham and Lot and they're like, we've got to separate ways. And it's fascinating in this text. I think it's 37. I can't remember. But the text says Lot looks at the Jordan Valley. By the way, they're supposed to stay in the promised land. This is cosmic geography stuff. Very important. They're supposed to stay in the promised land. So what Abram tells Lot is, hey, bro, you can go to the right or you can go to the left. Well, this is directional in Hebrews. You can go north or you can go south. You know, we're not supposed to go east or west. Why? If you go east or west, you go out of the land of promise. If you go out of the land of promise, you're out of the protection of the God of promise. So stay in the land of promise. That's the whole idea.

You know what Lot does? He looks up. He's like, East and West look great to me. The Jordan Valley is beautiful and pleasant. Just because something looks good doesn't mean that it's good for you. Just aside now. So looking up, yes, this is beautiful. And he goes outside of the land of promise. And then the text says this very explicitly. He sees that the Jordan Valley is good. He desires it. And then he basically takes possession of it. What's the consequence of it? It's right next to Sodom and Gamon I know you have some interesting thoughts of what's happening in Sodom and Gamora. But like, you know, and then you have this whole narrative of what's going on with Sodom and Gamora.

And so, yeah, I think all that is taking place. Yeah. I think some weird stuff's probably happening there. So, um... What do you think is happening to? I usually tend to think that cataclysm's sort of seem to birth out of genetic tampering some kind of, you know, abomination, which kind of, I feel like an abomination is something that shouldn't,

was just never supposed to be here, never supposed to happen in that way. And it's, it's sort of forces God's hand to deal with it in a way that he doesn't normally do. You know, it's not normal for him to flood or shoot a comet down and blow up a city, right? as we see a lot of evil that's allowed to continue, but it doesn't just get the, nah. The wipeout response. The total wipeout. I guess I've always had a question I asked, you know,

this to Hauser on our show the first time. What changes when Christ is crucified with the divine counsel? Like, they're, you know, what sort of happens do you think, on a spiritual level at that moment, like what they were before and then after. So there's a big question in scholarship, and this idea is prompted by a guy named Walter Wink. Wink was a brilliant and brilliant scholar,

and we owe a lot to Wink for his pursuit of exposing the supernatural realm to spaces that it typically would be very rejected. He took a lot of hard knocks for us, so I want to be very, very careful on how I talk about this. And Wink held what I think is absolutely unorthodox, and there's no evidence of it in Scripture, positioned that the powers could be rehabilitated. You know, there is, in my estimation, as an orthodox view, there's no view of the powers, the supernatural realm, the cosmic, these cosmic beings of being rehabilitated. for them to repent.

And like there's, this is Psalm 82. This is a judgment scene upon them. So what happens at the cross is the execution of that judgment scene. I hold to what's called an inaugurated eschatology. It is on the cross that the kingdom is here and now and not yet. Right? And so the judgment has been established. There's this story of animals.

I think there's one story of like a lion, a line that's wounded. It's like the most deadly in its, in its' world. wounded moment because it knows that it's on its way out so it's got nothing left to risk. This can go all out. That's what I would hold of these beings. Like that's what happens on the cross. They're mortally wounded. And yet they're still active. They're still working. And they're more prone, more devious, more conniving in trying to divide the family of God. And so there's a passage in 1st Corinthians that says if the powers knew what they were doing, which by the way, the powers, the phrase is

archon or excusia in Greek, its technical terms of Paul is using for the sons of God of the Old Testament. If the powers knew what they were doing, they would have never sent Jesus to the cross. We've never done it. They think that Jesus to the cross

is their triumph scene. They have no idea that it's their own execution scene. Which, by the way, this is a recapitulation of story of Haman in Esther. Haman builds the gallows from Mordecai, thinking, I gotcha. The only thing is, Haman hangs on the same gallows that he builds. Here's a question for you.

Do you believe that, like, figures like Zeus or some of the, like, you know, the names that we know are different than angels? Like, they, like, the Divine Council has ranks. Yeah. There's bigger, there's MJs in the NBA, you know what I mean? Like, use your sort of analogy. Yeah. There's guys playing, but there's like I feel like I've made it that now you're using my analogy is like with me.

That's excellent. You know, become all things to all men. Yeah, easy joke there. Yeah, I do. I do. I would, again, hold to that taxonomy idea that I would put the pantheon, the Zeus, all of them, in that realm of the sons of God, princes, kind of order. And underneath them, you have lesser gods that are doing the work. They're kind of doing the delegated work out of them.

and then you have supernatural beings, even underneath them, that are, you know, kind of acting wild. It could be a lot of characters, kind of. There could be a lot of characters at play. I don't think the biblical narrative tells us exactly what all these characters are. And exactly, like, the goal isn't to give us, I keep using the word taxonomy. It doesn't, the goal isn't to tell us exactly like a glossary, here's this being, here's what they do.

You know, like, my kids have this Marvel book. It tells you every superhero, all their powers, what their weaknesses are. It would be so nice if we had that. in the supernatural realm. We're in it. But we don't. Now, the Second Temple Literature tries to do that for us.

It's blurry. It's very blurry. But, yeah, I think the pan... And here's the other thing I think of these Sons of God. I think that they're wearing masks and they're constantly changing masks. So I go back to the Marduk and the Zeus idea. Same, I think, deities

that are connected geopolitically and even cosmic geography kind of idea. And I think they're just changing masks for different seasons in different times. They are very, very devious, incredibly smart. What do you think, I mean, how do pastors and people teaching this when they come up to, you know, like the Ten Commandments,

don't have other gods? I mean, what do they say these things are? I mean, I kind of heard some phrases, but how do they reconcile the story without incorporating this idea? I mean, it's hard for me to, I want to be compassionate, but also it's just hard for me because it's like these non-existence statements are not non-existence statements. They're non-comparability statements. Huge difference. When the scripture's saying there is no other gods, it's not a statement of non-existence.

It's a statement of non-comparability. Yahweh is species unique. There's no, there's, he is in a class of himself. So then what happens is because we don't have, I don't know, I don't know what's going on in the hearts and the minds of the pastors, and I want to be compassionate, maybe they feel not equipped potentially to be able to like communicate this in a way that is clear and concise and out of fear. By the way, a fear hermeneutic is always a horrific hermeneutic. Like if your method of reading, interpreting, and understanding the Bible is rooted in fear. it's instantly unhelpful. And I think a lot of what ends up happening is there's a fear hermeneutic that's kind of taking place.

This is why something like the unseen realm in the hands of as many pastors as possible is so important because Mike gave language for us. He's able to synthesize the scholarship in a way that is accessible. And if Unseen Realm is too daunting, read supernatural. Like he wrote that specifically for a little bit more accessibility. One day I hope to take my dissertation and we're in talks right now to turn that into a trade book. My hope would be it's going to be the follow-up for the book that Mike wanted to write that he never got a chance to write, which was why he was leading through my dissertation process the way that I was, because he hadn't done work on Paul and territorial spirits.

And so I would write that in his honor. Let's go. I think we need to get some questions to some Q&A here, Nate. Just so everybody can get the buffet on time. at least some types of questions here. Luke wants to get the buffet. Just trying to keep you on track, bro. This is what I do.

The Flurry buffet has to happen. Luke. Hi, so my name's Seth, as I meet you guys. I had a question about your statement with the Eucharitic text describing a four-tier system and the Bible, of course,

describing a three-tier system. Yeah, and I've seen how Michael Heiser talks about that, and I love all of his works on that stuff. Yeah. My question would be, is it possible that the three-tiered system is true, according to the Bible?

for God's kingdom. The four-tiered system is true, but only for the kingdom of the devil, given that the spirits of the dead Nephalim could be that new rung. That's a great question. Very thoughtful question as well. I think it's plausible, but I probably wouldn't go there because I think, and we're probably going to have to have a different conversation on what demons are. Tim brought that up. What exactly are demons? The Greek were Diomonian is a technical term of a classification of supernatural beings, disembodied spirits. It equates, very clearly with Elohim. The challenge that you have with the disembodied

spirits of Genesis 6 is that I hold to, they're the demons of the Gospels, and I actually think they've gone mad. They've been, they've been tormented, they're going across the world, and they were embodied, which

makes sense why they're trying to embody other people in the Gospels. That's the only time they can feel some sense of like, oh, I'm back to some embody, you know, And this is why they freak out when they see Jesus. They freak out because Jesus is casting them out, and they know that he is the only one that has the authority

to take them from disembodied existence into Tartarus, which was the holding place of their fathers, essentially, you know, the watchers. Which, a side note, did you guys know that of all of the miracles that Jesus does? There's one miracle that has never done in the Old Testament that only Jesus does. You all know what it is? demon exorcisms. Never find it.

Never find in the Old Testament. You find in the New Testament. Why? Because he's announcing his kingdom. He's like, y'all lost. Next person. So with the way you're explaining divine counsel and hierarchies and your confidence in Hebrew, I'm curious if you have looked into the Kabbalah or the tree of life on that side of things and how you reconcile that or compare it with our Bible and the divine counsel, you're, you know, is there any similarities there, or do you just dismiss it and say, you know, that has nothing to do with the divine counsel you're discussing in the Bible, or do you see that as

similarities but from a different religious perspective or a different, you know, cultural perspective? Yeah, I can't wait for our Q&A. This is going to be so good. I will not dismiss it. I think it's lazy intellectualism to dismiss anything like that. So my rationale for it, though, is back to the Divine Council idea, these beings have the source true story. They have the source true story. So they're going to fragment and counterfeit a true story in order to mimic it into their own mythological narrative. This is why you have deluge type of stories everywhere.

You've got tree of life imagery everywhere. You've got Gilgamesh epic kind of stuff going. You've got all this, why are all these different kind of? you have the same well that is the source story but it is a counterfeit story so I'd go back to where I first started I think the Hebrew Bible is a polemic against

that of saying you know this is like an orientation to what is true and right and just so I wouldn't dismiss it I'd also be very careful to adopt it like I think these are helpful but they're not canonical you know and so I want to kind of keep going back

I'm a bit more traditionalist in that way. Thanks, guys. Flurry Buffet. Thanks, Joel. Give it up for Joe.