Blurry Creatures - EP: 286 The Invisible College with Dr. Diana Pasulka

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Dr. Diana Pasulka returns to Blurry Creatures for an electrifying deep dive into the enigmatic world of ancient UFO encounters and the shadowy workings of the "Invisible College." As a trailblazer at the crossroads of spirituality, technology, and the unexplained, Dr. Pasulka unpacks groundbreaking insights from her latest book. Together, we explore how ancient sightings connect to modern phenomena, the esoteric knowledge held by elite circles, and what this means for humanity's understanding of the unknown. Get ready for a mind-expanding conversation that challenges everything you think you know about UFOs and the mysteries of our existence. Get MORE Exclusive Blurry Creature Content by joining our Supercast: https://blurrycreatures.supercast.com Get our Book of Enoch! https://amzn.to/4gpV4yZ New Episodes Drop Every Tuesday Blurry Creatures Socials https://www.tiktok.com/@blurrycreatures https://www.instagram.com/blurrycreatures https://www.facebook.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.twitter.com/blurrycreatures/ Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPilMKgeZRAJ2AVwSdFRL?si=09cb60f0aa504202 Listen on Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/blurry-creatures/id1526885135 Merch Store: https://www.blurrycreatures.com/store Outro Song: Timecop 1983 On The Run! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And Rough Green's really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. So Francis goes out and he's doing a prayer to the Archangels. It's the feast. of the archangels. And he's doing this prayer on this mountain, okay? And this is in Italy in the 1200s. And what happens is a seraph. And the seraph comes down and it basically has beams or something like light beams. So then he's hurt by the seraph, right? He has some kind of telepathic

communication with it too. And they go back to the monastery and they hide the wounds. They don't want anyone else to see. But you can see the radiation stuff or the light beams or whatever you want to call them. And this imparts upon him the wounds of Christ. Now we could talk about that because it appears that if this is a seraph, there's a tradition here of angel mysticism, of people being contacted by angels and angels imparting knowledge like the Jacob contact event. And it looks to be very powerful. And it looks to be very powerful.

The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right

and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church They have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to blurry creatures.

We're excited today. We have Dr. Diana Posulka in the studio, in the flesh here. And we did an episode, I think it was in the hundreds. It was 176. I looked up the other day because we were talking about Avon. And I was telling somebody, I was telling Doug Van Dorn. We had a conference recently, and one of our guests was, I was talking about you coming in and how it's been a crazy year or two for you. Yes, yes.

Because we initially had you on, we were talking before, a good friend of the show, a friend of my, Matt Marr, who's a worship artist. He's a Catholic guy. He introduced me to American Cosmic. And that's why I reached out initially to have you on the show because it's very, it feels like few and far between that someone in the religious space and you're a, a PhD of religious studies. You'd share the religious studies department at your university and that speaks and talks about or even contextualizes the UFO phenomena. And you started that. But here, as we were talking before, today, the actual day of recording here, we are the second session of the House Oversight Committee of UAPs is happening. Actually right now. And the last

year has been wild, at least for blurry creatures as well, because this has become a much more mainstream topic, at least discuss the mainstream. You just recently were on Joe Rogan, which is incredible. And I want to hear about how this last year has been for you. But these things are happening in the biggest forums in culture right now are having discussions around this. And now our government is also, at least in show, having a discussion around. Yeah, what do you feel about all that? Yeah. Okay. So first, wow, congratulations on your own, amazing stratospheric success too. What a great studio this is. I love it. And I remember when we had the first, you know, a podcast talk. And it was kind of, it was really new for me because I'm an academic.

So I started to get a lot of people who wanted to talk to me and I couldn't talk to everyone, right? So there's so many, like every single day. And so I'd basically just put them in a file and then kind of sometimes I just couldn't get to them. But blurry creatures. Mitch Headberg, I knew that. And I'm like, okay. You're one of the people who gets that. That's amazing. I'm like, I want to talk to these guys because they have a worldview here in their title.

And I asked you too. I said, is this the Mitch Headberg thing? And you're like, yeah, yeah. And I said, I'm in. I'm in. And since then, you guys have just gone huge. Like, I just love everything that you're doing. And you stayed true to the epistemology of it.

and I love the kind of, well, not the kind of the euphology and Christianity at the same time, because really that's what it's about. And I think that that's just really cool. So happy to be here again. Yeah, thank you. That's kind of what I want to talk to you about because I think a lot of times, you know, when you go on shows like this, you have to kind of start from the beginning and you have to sort of speak to the skeptics and the Christian skeptics.

And we don't have to do that today because I think a lot of our listeners have been here for the last four years and know that there's a lot of data and this is an ancient phenomena and also all the above is true when it comes to the UFOs. We don't have to sit here and go, well, it's just a government's sci-op and the government's just inflating it. Yeah, part of it is that. But also, people have been experiencing these things for a long time, way before Hollywood made it a cool, I guess, or interesting or put it onto the public scene. And so I think it would be good to just kind of pick up where we left off and not have to go through a whole hour of like, let's talk to the skeptics, because I know that a lot of people who were into the UFO space,

you kind of have to start there. Yeah, you do. But I don't feel like on our show where we're at, we have, you know, they can go back and listen to some other episodes and kind of catch up to where we are. And we say that a lot on the show, D, all the above, you know, like when it comes to anything from like Bigfoot to UFOs, there's, there are stories that are outside of whatever paradigm you have and you have to scratch your head and go, what is that? So I'd love to see where you are now and talk about the ancient part of it. Yeah. And the present as well. That's one thing I was looking forward because we touched on a bit because you told us all the stuff we never knew about the Vatican, right?

That there was this entire space where they had a wall or a portion of the library is dedicated to now the UFO phenomena, right? And this is because what I think a lot of people will say in our space and in the church as well is that this is a very modern phenomenon. Like, oh, yeah, since Roswell and Hollywood and I think these things all play into it. it. But what I like about your work in American Cosmic and now in encounters is you say, no, this isn't new. This isn't a new thing, in fact. Yeah, when did you get to that opinion? When did you start to think? Yeah, well, it began. Well, obviously, so remember in 2012 is when I started to look into this as something that was happening because I was finished with a lot of archival work where I had encountered aerial phenomena from Catholic, European Catholics from 1,200 to

1800, you know, so that's a long time ago. And even before that, okay, and I, and I kept this log, but it didn't occur to me that this had anything to do with UFOs. I just thought it was really strange. I included one in my book on the Catholic doctrine of purgatory history of that. And so what I did was I showed it to a friend of mine and he said, this looks like, you know, UFO, Stevens Spielberg types of things. And I thought he was wacko, really. And so, but, but I went to a UFO conference near my town. And I, and I, you know, and I, you know, talk to people. And so I started to then rethink how I was looking at these events, what I now call angel contact events, from history. And of course, Christianity has a lot of them, right? So the whole

Bible's filled with them, you know, and really we're kind of programmed. And you believe those are like UFO contact? Well, it's, okay. So what I think is that whatever we want to call that, it's, it's the same thing that we're seeing now. Okay. So, and that, so that recognition happened to me probably in 2000, late 2012. And why did it happen? Because I was, I had primary source material from the Catholic tradition, which is the Christian tradition. And this was the, the actual events where people were having contact events. And I saw that, that what was happening didn't look like how they were being represented. So they were being represented. So if you go back to the Bible and you actually read about the angel events like Jacob, wrestling with the angel and so forth, it's pretty intense.

Like, you know, we're talking about a high stakes interaction here that scares people. And with Jacob, he actually got a blessing. He fought this thing all night and got a blessing from it the next day. So there's some, so I was like, I had to say that I actually was woken up to my own religion. And I was a Christian before, but I became like a super believer after that. I was like, okay, this stuff is more real than I actually thought. Because we've been kind of lulled into not actually acknowledging that these are real things and they're still with us and they're still around. And people have these experiences. So that's when I woke up. Well, it's hard for us because we talked, we talked a lot of exorcists and trying to get to the. And I think if you have a highly focused, specialized field,

sometimes you have a hard time including all this other stuff. Right. And I think on our show, it's a one-stop shot for anything weird and strange, right? And we talk a lot about creatures specifically and aliens

and all that other stuff is obviously in that camp. But a lot of people who deal with this stuff, spiritual things, and our believers of spiritual things are also sometimes very myopic and like, oh no, this is a modern phenomenon. You're like, well,

we've talked to people who said this stuff goes all the way back and you've had UFO sightings hundreds and hundreds of years ago. So what is that? Is that true? Is it false? people making that up. They didn't even have a context to even say what it was. And they describe it

almost exactly. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill. And that's where MENTMobil comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge.

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Your life deserves music. Your music deserves Bose. Find your perfect product at Bose.com. Yeah. I would love to talk about that. Yeah, there's a pattern match. Those ideas. Yeah.

And what you found in the text that because obviously not a lot of people have access to ancient texts. Like we just don't have, I mean, we can look it up on the internet and we can look on like old newspaper articles. But the average person just can't go waltz into the vows. Vatican and read the things. Right. Was the was collecting.

I mean, obviously it was archiving, if you will. This was the archival system at that point. There was no, there weren't governments that were saving this stuff. It had to do directly with Christendom. And they, so yeah, what are, I know you've talked about it in terms of like assent narratives, right? You have these events that are recorded and written down. Yeah, what are some of these that to you,

It's written as maybe something miraculous or a, in the Catholic tradition, there's a, it's a saint, and they have some sort of experience. But when you read it through the lens of today, you see what we would call like a UFO or experience or encounter. Yeah, okay, so the pattern matches. Sure. Right. The ones that kind of blew my mind at the time in that time period 2013 or so were ones that Catholics especially are, And even regular Christians who are not Catholic, they all know these saints. Okay, so one of them is Francis of Assisi.

Oh, Sisi, yeah. Now, Francis of Assisi is, like, super well known because if you go to anybody's garden, sometimes they'll have a statue and he has the animals around him and the, you know, the birds on his shoulder and such. So that's Francis of Assisi. He was like an original Steve Irwin, right? He had all the animals. That's right, yeah, he was. He was, yeah, spoke to the animals.

So the thing about this is that you do have to access these archives and be and why? Because even back in that time period, when a person had one of these experiences, and I'll go specifically into what happened to him. Yeah. And again, no offense, okay, to people who are, you know, have their St. Francis card. And, you know, I'm just telling you what it's what these documents say. And then my interpretation. Okay, so Francis, so he is a devout person, right? So he has an inclination to know God.

Okay, so, you know, people are born that have that inclination. And so this leads him to become a monk. And on, so, oh, first let me finish talking about the accessing of these documents. So in the United States, there's an archive in Philadelphia, which is, as how. It's a Catholic archive, and it has so much information that's primary source information. It goes back to the Aztecs. Wow. Yeah, so they have like stone records of like Aztec.

Do you have to be an academic to get access? You know, I think you do. But maybe not. Is it hidden behind Mount Rushmore? Is that the place that Nick Cage went? Is that when Nick Cage went behind Mount Rushmore with a repository? Of course, there's a Nick Cage movie reference. You have to be an academic?

What about Nick Cage? How did he get in? I know, I know. Well, I don't actually know. I know at the Vatican, you do have to be. It's not necessarily an academic, but you have to have credentials that you've been studying. Yeah, yeah. It can't just be anyone who gets in. But it might be at the Philly Archive. I'm not sure, but I'll look into it. But it's just an incredible. I had, you know, a lot of the stuff is not digitized. So you wouldn't know. You have to actually be a nice person who's nice to the archivist. Because if you walk in there and you're like, I want to see these digitized things, which I did. Because I had seen them online. And I was like, I want to see. see these things. And then after day one, the archivist took liking to me. And he's like, do you want to see some really cool stuff? And I'm like, yes, I do. And so, you know, we went down, down, down, like six stories. They have stuff, six stories down. And I was kind of afraid, you know, this rickety elevator. And we get down there and we see things among them stones of Aztec

sacrifices, like where you can actually see. And I had a student with me, who's now actually a professor. And I was like thinking, am I going to trigger her, you know? Because these are like really bad, these are bad images, right? But that's where I learned a lot of this stuff. Okay. So you see the primary source documents of a lot of those people who have these experiences actually don't write them down. One person did, and that's Teresa Vival and I could talk about her too. But so Francis goes out and he's doing a prayer to the archangels. It's the feast of the archangels. And he's he's doing this prayer on this mountain, okay, and this is in Italy in the 1200s,

and what happens is a seraph comes down, well, I call it a seraph. That's because that's what he called it, okay, and it looks like a seraph. Who saw the seraph? New song coming out. You saw the seraph, that's cool. Some Rob Marley, yeah.

He did, he saw the seraph. Anyway, keep going. Bad joke. No, that's all right. I get that joke. Sometimes. But do you know what you're looking for at this moment? Or no. No. You don't know what you're looking for. No, no. I'm just, I'm doing an examination of these documents because I want to know, okay, wait a minute, something weird is happening and I would like to know, but I need a lot of data. So you can't just go off one or two documents. You need like hundreds of documents to say, this is the pattern match, right? So, and this is one of the big ones. And you can't just say that because Catholics will get upset at you, you know? You can't just say.

He's a big one. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so there's, he doesn't write anything, but this is written about him afterwards. And so you have several different documents from. Interesting. Yeah, from, and they all say a little, they all say the same thing, but in different ways. And they're all like in Latin and, you know, stuff like that, inaccessible types of things, right? He does actually make a, he does actually write something to one of his friends, who's a younger,

monk named Leo, Brother Leo. He writes something very important that I think says something about this event. But this is what happens to him. So he's at this event. Most likely Brother Leo's with him. Some sources don't say that, but a lot of sources do. And I believe that Brother Leo is most likely with him. But here is Francis and he's praying. And the serf comes down and it basically has beams or something like light beams. And we could talk about this. And we could talk about this in terms of Gary Nolan's work too. Because you know I work with Gary Nolan. Okay.

Yeah. So, so this, so then he's hurt by this seraph, right? He has some kind of telepathic communication with it too. Really? Yeah. So there's a telepathic communication. It, it, I don't know if it intentionally hurts him to tell you the truth. And this is something we could talk about with respect to Gary Nolan's work.

He has this question. He doesn't think it's intentional. Okay. So this being then interacts with Francis. Um, Francis is wounded, okay? And they go back to the monastery and they, they hide the wounds. They don't want anyone else to see what has happened to Francis. So it's, and it is called the stigmata, right? The wounds of Christ. And we talk about the stigma associated with phenomena today. That's where it, I mean, I think it starts there. So there's no digital, there's no digital copy of the story anywhere.

There are. Okay. Yeah. Well, this is the, but you're looking at the source materials. You're not, you're not taking a copy. looking at the actual writing. Yeah, the thing is that I gave a talk on this in New York City like a year and a half ago, I think, and I knew that people would want to know the sources. So I created a bibliography. And if you're, I have a feeling your viewers are the same. Like, they're going to want to see all this stuff and I'm happy to provide it. I am. So the thing about my field is, it's transparent. Like if we have sources, we're not like the people in the special access programs who can't share anything. We do. That's what we do. And as an academic, you do peer-reviewed work, too.

So it's all very much. Yeah, and Dr. Michael Heiser got us into this and it started, basically was the academic that helped this show get started. Wow. You're lucky. And he came on a couple times in the early days, but he would do the same thing. And there's a lot of people taking shots at him now that he's even passed. But I realized that all of his work was peer-reviewed. And it's cited.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you can't publish anything. I mean, I've published with Oxford. That's what I love about this, though. Because I think in the space there's so much conjecture and everybody has an opinion because, of course, it's a phenomenon, right? But we always try to go back to the, what does the data say? And that's why I love the empirical work, your work is empirical. It's part of the scientific method.

And you're also compiling and citing these sources. Well, it's cool because like John Mack and you and we need these academics to kind of push this subject into the mainstream because nobody's going to take anybody else serious. So if you're like, oh, fire in the sky, I'm just this guy that got abducted by this UFO. Everyone's like, ah, you're just some guy and lives in a trailer. You know, and then we write it off. But we really do need the academics to help make it. Hey, this is happening. Here's the data.

So I appreciate that. So you were talking about John Mack. Yeah, so C-C has stigmata, as you say, and this is where you think the stigma, if you will, comes from when it comes to this. But what happens to him? He gets back, yeah. Yeah. So sadly, he ends up passing away, right? And it's pretty serious.

From that? We don't actually know. I can't say for sure. My opinion is that probably because it looked like he was, he was so wounded that they didn't want to show his wounds to anybody. How do you think he was, he was wounded, like shot at, or just like any person? No, it looks like he was, it looks like some type of radiation or some kind of light. This is the Gary Nolan. Yeah. So when you see those images of, by the way, even when you see the representations and paintings of Francis of Assisi and hopefully I'll send some for your viewers, but it would be great if we had him up here, you know, So there's a whole, there's a whole lineage. Yeah, you could show some of them. It's the stigmata. Is this connected?

You know that Phil Schneider's story when he goes down in the underground base and he gets shot up? He gets cancer right after that. Yeah, it's very similar. Okay. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon.

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So when I started to do my research show in about 2014, 2015, aerospace people, well, even before that, but a lot of people who were associated with aerospace companies and corporations, started to ask me for my research and data. Yeah. And so I thought that was weird. That was weird. That felt kind of odd.

I thought it was weird. I was like, okay, I'm just an academic doing this work that nobody, you know, we all think it's interesting, but nobody else does. And that's when you're when you're starting to shift and see this? Yeah, that's when they started to, then I began to speak with them. And I recognized that they were looking at it. Like they asked me questions, what kind of light did they report? What was the color of it? Where was this?

You know, they were looking at longitude, latitude, hot spot type things. And they said, were any of the people damaged or hurt? Like were there any injuries? And I was thinking, yeah, there are injuries. And so, yeah, that's, so there's a whole history of that, too, of that image. It changes over time. So in this, in this one, this is probably an early one. I don't know if you can see Brother Leo in there, but usually you see Brother Leo in there. There might, Brother Leo might be. Right behind them? Yeah, I think so, right up the top there. But see how this, they're portraying this as, as the seraph. He says, Sidon and I came out to look at him, or at least Brother Leo said that because he presumably witnesses this. Okay, so there's two guys there? Yeah, there's two guys there. And Brother Leo is usually in the shadow somewhere witnessing this, and it's not necessarily

the case that Jesus is there. So he's not sure, he sees an eye, but that later gets interpreted to be Jesus. Okay. So they're not, so that's what I'm saying is that there are different ways of interpreting. There's one with Brother Leo. That's a later version of that representation. But you can see the radiation stuff or the light beams or whatever you want to call them. And this imparts upon him the wounds of Christ.

Now, we could talk about that because it appears that if this is a seraph, there's a tradition here of angel mysticism, of people being contacted by angels. and angels imparting knowledge like the Jacob contact event. And it looks to be very powerful, a very powerful. There's a lot of skeptics who think that sometimes those can be nefarious. Do you see any signs? In many cases, I think that they are. So right now, I am now telling people, and by the way, this doesn't reflect my university's position. So my university doesn't have anything to say about angel events and things like that.

They're okay with me doing this. Very happy. You can put it all on blurry. It's fine. We'll take it. Well, it was interesting about that. In addition to this situation where you have an injury or you have this, this UFO or angel injury is what you're just talking about as well is like we talk a lot about Genesis 6

in our show where you have the watchers, the rebellious angels that they show up and what they do, they impart knowledge. They trade knowledge for. For wives. Yes, absolutely. But the angels themselves don't feel dangerous. It could be the technology that they're moving around in because there's also these stories where UFO will land in some farmer's property, nothing grows around that area.

So could the craft that maybe they're rolling in on be the thing that hurts people? Yeah, this is something that people are trying to figure out as well. So do you want to say this? There's this congressional hearing right now. Yeah. The work that's being done, that's the actual work to move this forward, is not. in the congressional hearing. I mean, that's helpful and I love it that it's happening because before we walked into this studio, I heard Elizondo, Lou Elizondo talk about people being harassed

for doing this work. And I'm one of those people. And so I'm happy that this is happening, even if it's not super deep what's going on in Congress. I don't care. I'm happy that he's coming out and saying, you know, this is, you know, people are doing this. And because the people who do have knowledge about it, and by the way, it looks now that I've written American Cosmic and it's been a few years and the whole thing is happening, I basically wrote about one of those unacknowledged SAPs, special access programs. And so in a sense, I'm one of those people who know. So if they want the whistleblowers, thank goodness they're not asking me. But if they want to know about it, it's in that book.

So we have a unique opportunity then with you sitting here. We don't know what's happening at the moment as far as what's going on in the hearing. But we do, the last one, we know what happened. So your experiences, we talked about with Tyler last time on the show, right? He's to refresh on our last episode, he's a space force. If I'm my correct here, he's a space force also an astrophysicist or an aerospace engineer. I don't remember which one it is. But he takes you places and shows you some things that exist.

So having that and having seen things and knowing folks on the inside, what are your thoughts about the initial stuff that came out? Like, do you think David Grush has told the truth about what potentially these factions, unregulated factions as it would be of our government perhaps have? Because they said a lot of things, which is recovered craft, which I know you went to a crash site. Yeah, right? I'll talk about that.

And also they talk about non-human biologics, which is a very interesting, interesting revelation. Do you, is that, does all of that jive of the stuff that you have? It feels like a very massage press release. Yeah, okay. So I think, I don't know exactly what's happening. I'll just say that. Except that I do know that right now,

directly after American Cosmic was published, You talked to me a little bit right as that was happening. A lot happened. Okay. Part of what happened was that I got to meet a lot of the, I met all the people in the Invisible College. In fact, I think that they consider me a part of it. So even though I don't consider myself.

Because we didn't get into this. And this is something I was going to ask you that you talked, you touched on with Joe Rogan, but he never, never strung this out. And it was fascinating to me. Like you have the invisible college. And then you have what you called this pencils up, this oral tradition of the UFO narrative that exists that isn't written down. Can you talk about that for a bit? And we can maybe pull a few of those strings.

Because I feel like Joe moved on quickly. And I was like, what is this? It's okay. Because, you know, the thing is, is that it sounds so weird that I have said no to, I know. I have said no to the. some of the, like, you would know their names, like Joe Rogan and blah, blah, blah, you know, because I don't want to say it publicly, you know, because it's that weird. But I said it yesterday on Sean Ryan, and I'm going to say it here.

Okay, so there's a level to what's happening that's a, I would call it a non-human level. I would call it like, you know, when people talk about what is spiritual warfare and that type of thing, it's indicative to me that something like that is happening. So when we're talking about this pencils up tradition, first off, there's now talk about this unacknowledged special access program called Immaculate Conception. I promise you that's not what it's called. And also, they will change the name. So it'll be changed and it'll be numbers or else it'll be something that is passed along orally. There's an oral tradition.

This thing that gets imparted to Francis is knowledge, but it also, also could be something that's transmitted to his monks and then gets transmitted over time. Telepathically. Yeah, or some kind of like- Orally, like it's like pre-written history, right? Yeah. You have the Bible's passed down orally

until it's written down, presumably by Moses. That's right. Right, but you have these. Well, I mean, a lot of people can tend on our show, that's how all the biblical writers really got the kind of being told these things. I think so, yeah, I think so. Because how does it all match and flow and over centuries and time? And it's like this book supports this book,

and so on. It's like a living document. And the only way that- That's right. I just don't think human beings could be as involved with that process as we probably would think if we were just rational, like the rational discussion. Oh yeah, they wrote this book down. But it seems like there's something entirely different happening

with scripture. And you see Jordan Peterson on talking about all this all the time because he's, I don't know where his faith is, but he's mesmerized by the Bible itself. And I think that's because there were higher entities involved in communicating. the message to us, but that's my take. Yeah, I personally feel that.

So this is nothing I could do peer review. Like you can't, you know, oh, that oral tradition, that's unacknowledged. Let's peer review that. You can't do that. What is it then? Is this, it feels like esoteric secret knowledge, right? That's kind of how it feels like, oh, we've got this meta-narrative that's the truth that is only not being written down, but it's being passed from, is this one?

with the Invisible College is these people who kind of hold this, this knowledge about what's really happening. Is that? Well, okay, so the invisible college is filled with scientists who've been working on UAP, UFOs for more than 40 years. Okay, so they're, they're all like in their 70s and 80s now. And when is Jacques Valle, how put off? Since the great age of the 80s? Since then? Yeah. The great age. True, true. All the way back to the 80s. It's like, looks a lot like this. in some ways. You said this place was steps from the water.

We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now.

Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for this day. Even in the 50s. Some of you've been working on it since the 50s. So, you know, Alan Hydeck.

We don't know that decade here. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's Roswell. So you have the sort of the modern American. That's right. So there's this lineage. Now, the thing about them is that, and excuse me if they hear this. I'm sorry.

They're not part of the special access program. It's good. They're invisible. They're on the other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. So they're not like, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not,

secret clearance. No, they may be even, but they're not, I know from interacting with them that they don't know what Tyler knows. And it doesn't seem like they'll be able to. They're surprised even when they hear. Do you feel like there's like just several different factions all realizing they can't bottle this up anymore and everyone wants to get in control who gets to break the story? I think that's going on. Yeah, I think right now that part of the government is basically trying to manage the situation. But there's part of the government. see, they're not even in alignment with each other. And so I've been in the crossfire of that.

And then you said there's Angelic, who are also part of the disclosure? I mean, honestly, I think that we're in a space where good things are happening on that front. And it seems like there's a lot of pushback to that. And for people who want to know the truth, right, there's pushback to those people. And that's unfortunate. But that has always been the case, by the way. You know, if you look at the truth tellers, you know, it's not been great for them, really, in the end, you know. Right.

But they do it anyway, right? And I think maybe we're at a place where it might be okay, you know, to say the truth now. Yeah. So what is the sort of, what are the bigger, some of the more the bigger parts of this oral narrative? Is it, is it have to do with recovery or donation, the donation of these? Yeah. So if you look, again, now I even look at my own book. because now I'm thinking, because I just documented it.

I think I told you all at the time that I was just, it was like mad, furious rush just to document what I was experiencing. And now when I go back and reread it, I can't believe what I wrote because I say, okay, now that's true. That came true. This is what he was talking about. And so what you were asking me, what is it about? Well, it's important to know that this is a person who was in the Space Force

and, you know, part of the space shuttle program for its duration. Yeah. And very patriotic, you know, and then, you know, part of most likely looks like a crash retrieval program took me to a site, right? I work with Gary. He and I and Gary worked for a while together. And then what happened was he converted to hardcore Christianity. After seeing those documents, those primary source documents that I showed him, he then recognized

what he was doing. and who he was interacting with. And he became, just like I did. So in a sense, that book reveals my conversion and his conversion, even though I was already Christian. You know, I was like, wow, it's real more than I thought it was. Like, even though I believed it. Well, yeah, we were talking about that yesterday.

Like, Moses had a magical staff. You know that. You grow up, like, coloring those things and, like, you know, the children's department at the church. And then something happens in us where we get to do. older and we just like don't believe it as much or at all. No, we don't. But we're still, but we still believe in God, right? That's right. Yeah. And it's such a strange thing that happens. And then you see a UFO or you see big photo, you see something you shouldn't see. And then all of a

sudden you go, wait a minute. Like you just, you just become awake to the fact that this is, this is all spiritual. Yeah. Everything happening is spiritual. And that's another part of this conversation I wanted to talk. I don't know if you were done with this or not, but where the physical meets the spiritual, because that's the most confusing part of all this, because you have a lot of Christians like, oh, it's just demons, it's just spirits,

it's just deception. You're like, but you went and, like. Well, yeah, we have an exorcist game on the show and said it's just a manifestation. But we have craft. We have nuts and bolts. And you, you know, what is that? Talk about holding and touching these materials.

And Gary Nolan is, I want to see his collection. He's collecting these things to analyze them, right? Yeah, he is. Yeah. Like, we talked about, like, one of our bigger episodes was a Mormon missionary where he'd be friends of government trapper, you know, in Roswell, New Mexico. And he found a piece of this craft. And he had it in his, with all of his, you know, his bear traps and everything else. And he shows these Mormon missionary, like, hey, check this out.

And there's markings on it, like ancient markings, like weird languages. And they try to even just put a little dent in it and they can't. And take that story for what it is. but it's all documented in like the 70s, and he sent these letters back to his parents. And then his son finds them and then listens to our show and goes, whoa, why is this involved in my dad's like Mormon missionary stories, writing to my parents?

He just happens to, but there's like, that's a long story, but there are pieces of wreckage. Like how often do you hear, you know, spiritual stories that just are around the evidence is there. You could go and it doesn't happen, right? demons aren't building things. So we have to like figure out what that is. How does the spiritual physical collide? Okay. Now, I know this sounds odd, but this is what my purgatory book was about because I start off with a way too long introduction, by the way. So if anybody reads that book,

you can skip the introduction unless you're interested in Vatican 2, okay, which I'm sure you probably aren't. But it is interesting Catholics. So I start off by talking about. about this cave that people would go into in 1,200, even before that, so for hundreds of years. They're Christian, they're Irish. And this is like 700, 800, 900, right? So a long time ago. And they would go into this cave to basically go through

the afterlife. So the afterlife wasn't something that you just experienced when you were dead, right? So there's, so my question was in that book, how did purgatory become something something that was supernatural and non-material. Because back in the day, when people thought of purgatory, it was actually a place. And it was a thing that people experienced and they met demons and they fought them and things like that. So they're... Like they went to the underworld somehow?

Yeah, they just went through cave door and they were there. Like the gates of hell at Mount Herman. That is a, yeah, the gates of hell. They believe was the interest of the other world. So you think it was actually like, like you go into the cave, you know, and you go down and but you're still alive? Oh, no, yeah. So if you survive it, then your sins are forgiven. That was their version of purgatory. So the important point is that during the late modern or the early modern period, there was a shift toward the belief that angels and demons and spiritual things were non-material. Well, why? That was my question in the purgatory book. We inherited that culture. That there's a dichotomy between spirit and matter. Now, this is something that I hear exorcists say, not all of them, but a lot of them say, well, angels and demons are non-material. They're non-material. Well, okay, wait a minute. If you go back to the Bible, there are very real effects of these non-material. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are we're not. Yeah. They're not, yeah, they're not. They're Dislocate Jacobs.

Are you talking demons or you're talking angels? We're talking about angels here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. By definition, or disembodied spirits. So they have this capability to do that. Sure. And so when we then, we've inherited that worldview.

So to us, nothing exists other than what we, like, that's how we lose our faith, right? When we say we have our faith, we abstractly believe in God, you know, even when we're Christian. Like, you know, Colonel Carl Nell, I posted a quote from him. him on, I think it was in Instagram the other day, where he basically does this talk and he says that people are now going to have to confront the fact that they, what they believe, their religious belief, like of angels and so forth, he said, is actually real. And that's going to be difficult. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of just like, we're on both sides of this coin because

you have the Bigfoot scientists who are trying to say, this is an animal, right? Bigfoot is just an animal. There's nothing woo going on with. And then you have Christians say, it's just spiritual deception. It's not actually physical either. So you have these two camps that acknowledge that Bigfoot's a thing, but they don't agree on what it is. And then you hear people come on our show and say, it does both those things. It leaves footprints and it disappears. And you're like, wait, how does that happen? How does that work? And so you can't stay in one side for very long. Or you just have to deny all these stories and all these encounters and all these experiences. And I think that you're trying to do that to the angelic world and say maybe they build craft,

maybe they arrive on craft, maybe they're a part of these things flying around. And a lot of people hate Luke and I for saying that. That, you know, it's in some of our imagery. It's obviously in the intro to the show. We show that on Mount Herman where these angels show up, how do they get there? Do they just pop into existence or do they have to come from point A to get to point B? I think they more likely had to travel somehow and get here. And that's how they move around.

And that's what we're seeing since the dawn and time. But it's hard because we don't know which are the good ones, which ones are the bad ones? And what are they doing? And why? To that note, Dan, can we circle back to St. Francis? Because we were talking about his injuries. And you were saying that what you read seemed like radiation. Last time I spoke with Gary about it, he didn't believe that it was intentional.

He thought it was like collateral damage from being close to. So he was doing this work in at least 2017, maybe 2000, probably 2015, I'm thinking. But he had a lot of data and shared it with me when we were in New Mexico going to that site. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. Go further in a long-range Subaru hybrid with up to 581 miles per tank in the Forrester hybrid. Longer range, better fuel efficiency, and legendary symmetrical all-wheel drive, standard. The Subaru forester hybrid. Visit Subaru.com slash hybrid to learn more.

Maximum range based on EPA estimated combined fuel economy and a full tank of fuel. Actual mileage and range may vary. And so that's what clued me in, and even earlier with people asking me, the aerospace engineers, you know, are there injuries involved with these angel events, you know? And well, yeah, I hadn't thought about that, honestly, because we're just sadly trained to see angel events in a certain way, right? So many images show us what angels look like. Wrestling, right? Exactly, yeah.

Is that what is happening? We see, most people don't read the Bible, so you don't get those stories, right? And so, like, they're not passed on. They're not talked about in church, but, you know. Well, it took you a long time to know what you were looking for as well as anybody else in these spaces. Or it's almost as if God chooses you for this path and this journey because it takes a kind of skeptical mind but open mind at the same time. And usually human beings are on kind of one side of these things. But an academic too.

So there's a method. It's methodical, right? You have to, you're creating a case. Yes. So in the case of. But you can also just dismiss things or put them into entirely different category. like the sons of God in Genesis 6 aren't angels. They're just a race of humans.

Let's done, move on. And then you have all these other academics. Like, no, no, no. The language doesn't say that. These are a different, this is not human beings on, you know. And even the language says, you know, took the daughters of men. I think we as humans can create categories because we're afraid of what that means. There's angels and humans hanging out.

How does that possible? Exactly. Yeah. So there are unanswered questions. And as we go on with what's happening with the official disclosure going on, right? Sure, sure. It's really interesting to look back on the questions that we have unanswered. And so that's why, I think that's why, honestly, it's so strange for me because I did that research not knowing what a crash retrieval program was, not having that language, not knowing even not.

even believing in UFOs. So I did it fresh from the perspective of the scholar of religion. Yeah. And then becoming shocked, right? And then, but I keep going. There were times when I didn't want to continue, by the way. Yeah. I can imagine. Same with us. It's like, you know, you, you're just kicking so many things around that you, like we have the, you know, we have all the, we have the Mormons listening, the Flat Earthers listening, you know, the Catholics listening, the, the Christian's listening. The, and they all get. mad at us, but for different reasons. And they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're very vocal about certain things. Yes, yeah. I'm sure you've had a lot of conversations with exorcists

about these things. I have. And how's that, how does that go? Well, I had one, and, and these are amazing people. Yeah. Okay. Because devoting your life, sure, doing that is, is, is pretty hardcore. I think we can all agree on that. Um, so one of them suggested that I get out of this work, because of the spiritual danger. So around 2020, I'd been giving all kinds of talks. Like if a person asked me to go talk at their university or whatnot or their church or whatnot, I'd do it. And there would be mediums in the audience, people who... Really?

Yes. And I would think, okay, that's an interesting choice of career. However, they would then say, and that person in your slide, like of a government agent or whatnot, that person is my boss. And so this type of thing would keep happening to me to the point where I knew that this was, I was being targeted. And this was something that was not cool with me because what do mediums do? They get access to information that they have in a weird way, right? In a way that's not conventional. Like we're talking here.

It's not through talking. And so I recognize then. So the exorcist said, these things are going to happen to you and people will give you things. people give you things and you have to get those you have to get rid of those give them to a priest that can get rid of them basically you're talking about witchcraft I mean literally that's a medium it's like the medium witch of Indore right you're really just talking about

witch for in verna it's just vernacular right you have yeah like hexed items cursed items and things like that so so again I got a lot of things and so I had never thought about it from that point of view and then Taco Bell cups though no no I was blessed they were filled with holy water before they were It's something that academics don't want to talk about because, and I don't blame them, frankly, it is just very outside of our comfort zone, you know, and also weird for them.

Well, it takes a long time. It took me, you know, about a decade to kind of connect Bigfoot to these things. You know, you start out there and then it was David Politis and missing 4 and 1, the data of people going missing where you couldn't, every single explanation was finally off the table. People are going from our world to somewhere else. and you have to go, okay, UFOs are real, and these abductions or portals or something is real. It's not an animal, it's not a bear, it's not Bigfoot, it's not the Wendigo, it's something unexplainable is happening. And so the UFO abduction phenomenon starts to come into the conversation.

Year 8, 9 into researching these topics, where you're already open-minded, you're already down that road, and you go, okay, now I have room for this. And I'm not skeptical. I don't know what I believe about it. Let's just hear the data. Let's hear the stories. And I think guys like John Mack

were like having all these people telling the same story over and over again, you have to be like, either I'm not going to listen to people and say they're all nuts or this is happening. Well, he did a psychiatric analysis on those people. And he found that in every way they were normal,

except for that one thing. Yeah. Them saying, well, I was abducted by aliens, right? And he was like, sorry, but these are completely normal people. And I just, I think that's why you need shows like this and people like you to kind of push this on the mainstream. And I think that for some reason, a lot of Christians are afraid of these topics, these conversations. Yeah. Or very quick to say, it's demons.

Don't talk about it anymore. That's it. It's done. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not what the data says. And I think that's why we started here in this conversation. We've moved past that over the years.

And if you're still there, you know, stay with us, hopefully. But there's more data. and I'd love to talk about that where your mind starts to go, okay, you're at a crash retrieval, you're looking at the pieces, you're touching stuff. What's going through your mind then in terms of your faith? Yeah, so Tyler, this person, enigmatic person who is affiliated with all these government institutions, has the clearances.

So he takes Gary Nolan and I, Gary is a professor at Stanford, a scientist, and we go to this. And by the way, I invited Gary because I didn't want to go by myself. So we go to this place. You want to be blindfolded and take someone by yourself? No, I did not. That's probably smart move. Yeah.

We had to be blindfolded. It's a secret place. So it's in New Mexico. It was a crash site from apparently one of the ones in the 1940s, not Roswell. And so at that point, I'm not believing. I'm not believing that it's real. I think that maybe it's a setup. Maybe they're trying to plant disinformation.

Gary's on my side. You know, we're both academics. And so we both kind of talk to each other as the day goes on, and we do find debris. You know, we're like, is this a setup for us? And Gary's like, well, I'm the one who's going to assess these materials and we'll find out. You know, and I was like, yeah. So anyway, so we got the stuff and it looks like metallic frog skin. So everybody asks me, what does it look like?

So it looks like metallic frog skin. and Gary's going to take it... Big pieces, small pieces? Big and small pieces we found. And it wasn't easy to find, by the way. It was underneath rubble and buried, like really deep. And the rubble, by the way, this is why I'm really grateful to my then-self for taking good notes, you know,

because the rubble was important because I didn't understand it. Tyler told me that it was disintegrated cans, aluminum cans from the 1950s. After they excavated the craft, they didn't want anybody else out there looking for this stuff. But my editor of the book is my Oxford editor. So she said, this is weird, Diana, you can't put this in there. Like, why would there be rubble out in the middle of the desert? You know, and I said, well, you're right. It is weird, but we have to keep it in there because we don't know.

Yeah. You know, but it was there. Like, I'm not going to say it wasn't there, you know, that I'm supposed to be an honest person here. When they're doing that, so your metal detector doesn't work, right? Like, your pick, is it to kind of cover? Yeah, that's right, to put off the metal detector. Yeah, so basically you can't find a thing and you can't find the, you know, the needle in the haystack because it all, it all pings, right? That's right.

Well, we heard the same thing about that book, The Long Walk, when he sees the family of Yeti, when he's trying to get out of Siberia going through Siberia. And where's this going? Well, it's just the editor, the editor told him. Take it out of the book. Yeah. And because you don't want to, you're telling this story about how you escaped a prison camp. You don't want to be talking about a family of Yeti that you saw on the way home. You know, that, let's cut that out of the book.

But I think that there's a, there's a part of every author. It's not to be objected to the truth. I have to say what happened. That's right. You have to. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important.

This sort of observation then. Yeah, you're there. You're seeing it. And you're holding. You have to, how far are you going 10 feet down, six feet down? How far down do you go to define? Yeah, so Gary goes down, it looks like three feet down. Three feet down.

So he spends almost all day at this one rock. Because Tyler had configured the metal detectors to identify this stuff. You know, he knows what he's doing. What kind of metal is it? We don't know. Well, they're anomalous. So according to Gary, who then comes back and says to us months later, you know, I've done the initial look at these and they're so far.

But it's setting off the metal detector. Yeah, yeah. So he's looking for a certain type of metal, I guess. and knows what it is. Like an alloy, probably. And I don't know as a non-scientist. Is it light? Is it?

The metal? Yeah. Yeah. It's super light. What's the biggest piece that you guys found? So probably the biggest piece was probably like this big. Size of a subway sandwich? Yeah.

Like a bigger than a VHS? Yeah, bigger than a VHS. And then we found a bunch of small parts and there were some other types of things too. A couple questions. What other type of things do you find? there besides was it pieces of some other stuff yeah no it was apparently part of it but it didn't look like the frogs so you're saying frog skin you're saying it's it's wavy it's got texture or it just shines that way it's wavy it has texture like bumpy you know like frog skin has and like if you

took a frog and you took his skin off that's what it would look like but it was metal looking and kind of dark metal when did you do this again this was in oh let's see probably 2,000 17. Wow. So pretty recent. Yes. It's still out there. And that busts your paradigm, right? Because at this point, you said you weren't really a believer. You were just sort of chasing this narrative. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Then you're like, I'm holding this. I knew that there was something there that was substantial, but I didn't, I didn't believe it was what I was going to find out. And also, part of it was the context was that Tyler was bizarre. Like he could go, he had, he didn't have to go through TSA at the airport. You know what? He's, I mean. so many weird things about that guy. And so he told us what would happen to Gary once he got through the airport. So at the, you know, we had to take this stuff back, right? And so I say, I'm not taking it. You know, I'm not going to take this. Yeah, I did. I said, you take it, Gary. You're going to analyze it. Let him take it through here. Yeah. And so Gary's like, I'll, I'll take it. I'll take it in my backpack. So Tyler said, okay, this is going to happen to you, Gary. You're going to

get stopped. And don't worry, though, you'll get it. They're not going to, even if they find it, They're not going to know what it is and they don't care. But whatever, it's going to be tagged and flagged. And so you'll probably be known. And Gary's like, I don't care about that. And so, but he was sweating when he went through there. Really? Yeah, it all happened.

Yeah. It all happened. Exactly. So Tyler sailed through. I go through TSA. Gary goes through TSA, get stopped, you know. And I'm watching and I'm afraid for him, frankly. And then I get out and Tyler's just hanging out there with his glass of water.

And he, Tyler has some of the craft and Gary has some of them. No, no, Gary has all of it. Yeah. Okay. Why wouldn't Tyler carry it if he can just go through TSA? Yeah. He didn't. I have no idea.

I mean, interesting. Because he just breezes through. Just take it with you, pal. Put it in your laptop bag. And you did how, you spent just one day digging for this stuff? Yeah. And you found all of that. What is Gary?

What is Gary's conclusions then once he gets it back to the lab? So, okay. So, again, he, at this point, and I checked this before I went on the Joe Rogan podcast. I checked it with Gary, so I texted him and say, okay, I'm going to go on Joe Rogan. What can't I say or can't I say about this stuff that you found? And he said, oh, he just said it was anomalous. And he said that we found anomalous, that of his stuff, he found anomalous stuff that's been found at a place where people have seen a craft.

So are they related? He can't say, right? It's a very scientific answer. Like something we can't explain that was found at a place. reportedly where there was an associated with a crash. Any serial numbers on there or any writing or anything? No, no. And why do you think they crash?

Yeah, so that's a question. So some people have this theory, and this is what Gary's theory is, is that, and this is what Tyler's theory is too, is that it's a donation, like they're giving it to us. And so how do they do that? They can crash. Well, to me that seems strange, but that's their idea, that is a donation. could this be so you you have to you have to assess all of these different theories could this be a government siop that i'm a part of and now you know sadly being duped i'm a useful idiot sadly being duped into

saying this for people well in my book i say i don't know maybe right but i'm being really honest in my book american cosmic i'm i'm still skeptical i'm like i'm not a believer or a disbeliever but what happens afterwards makes me a complete believer that there's another level to this Sure. And that there are forces of evil and good here at work. Yeah. And so now I, that's what I believe. Maybe the angel's wives just didn't put any oil in the, and the, in the craft.

Yeah, they let them drive. Or maybe they just let their wives drive. Their human wives drive. That would be. They wouldn't have crashed. Exactly. They would have crashed. That's the whole point.

I think it's hard for people to think that this thing is an advanced piece of technology. It doesn't have any fuel, really. It's, it's anti-gravity. It's going, you know, speeds we don't even know. 20,000 miles an hour and then it just crashes. Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. And, but I think that's, it's like anything, it's just one miscalculation or one issue. Or, you know, it's always associated with someone said that we brought on a gentleman who was there in the 60s in the nuclear base.

And there was this theory that, that our nuclear technology messes with their technology can shut them off, can cause. them to lose power almost and then they crash and if these things are nuclear and they're causing you know human beings to have almost radiation issues then Robert Salas Robert Salas yeah Robert Salas yeah and so if they're nuclear and our nuclear issues cause their problems and they crash because of maybe some sort of bomb that we set off and in the atmosphere and it caused them to lose power and then they go down but also we're saying that they have sort of you know well I was gonna ask about another idea with us not necessarily they're crashed but you said they're donated and I

wonder if any of your research whether it be the oral tradition or talking to Tyler or some this invisible college stuff do if you uncovered anything that would suggest that we have maybe an agreement or an accord with some of these extraterrestrials if you will like um because people talk about the eyes now or accord there's this idea that he went for emergency dental work and but he didn't really do that he went to Los Alamos and there was this it was saying donation it's interesting it's like that

you donate something is it goodwill or do we have some kind of agreement and there's been hypothesized things on our show about the abduction phenomenon and that

perhaps there's an agreement where there's a trade for technology this is of course someone's opinion or their hypothesis that we've traded technology for permission to abduct humans. Yeah, we have presidents met with aliens. Yeah, I know that one. Have you found anything that would make you think that maybe that's happening or is that just

sort of a lot of conjecture? I have not, I have not found anything to suggest that in terms of me talking to the people who are associated with those programs, okay, who actually maybe have seen the phenomena around nuclear sites and even where, weapons and stuff like that. Okay. What I do think, though, is that this is real about the nuclear power because, I mean, think of where the crash sites happen. They happen after the Manhattan Project, right? Over in, you know, where we're detonating, you know. A lot of New Mexico, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's right there. And so there's something there that those, and the question I got a lot from Tyler was why do they care so much about our weapons of mass destruction?

Exactly. They're always associated with them and they're turning them off. Yeah. And it kind of reminds me of those videos where the Chinese are shooting down those drones with those like big guns because people can't illegally fly drones. It's like maybe our nukes just turn them off and then they just free fall and they're like, ah, and then they do crash. Something like that. Something we're doing is causing that. And it's such a wild or it's or it could just be ambivalence. I mean, it could be that because we we have, we have, We had Gary, we had Gary Stearman and a gentleman on our show who has this UFO experience where his plane is going to go down. He's flying his plane and a UFO shows up on his wing and more or less saves him. Yeah.

He has a time slippage, which is wild. But this dude's a Christian guy who does change his entire life. But this UFO saved his plane. It basically took control and took it in and he landed in a situation where he shouldn't have possibly gone down. He tells a story. So then you have these anecdotal things where you. go there's a lot of evil stuff that happens. I think the abduction phenomenon is super evil.

We talk about demonic. It's evil. You have a lot of associations with UFOs as negative, quote, evil stuff. But then you also have this whole other side. And they kind of touched on it where you have things that kind of don't make sense. Like they're helping. Or we go back to Francis of Sisi. Yeah.

And you go, do you have an encounter with something that, like you said, maybe it was a byproduct of the encounter. was his injuries, but he's in prayer. Is this a positive? Like the good guys are also using technology. And that's what I was going to say into that conversation is do you, when you were going through the archival stuff, and this is I think fits the conversation as well. Are you seeing similar injuries?

Is that we almost got there? But is that the same thing that Gary's seeing? Are we seeing, are you able to look through and find these other, these more ancient UFO encounters and say, We have a modern day reciprocal of that. And this is, this feels a lot like someone having an encounter with technology, like a craft that we, that's purported reported as an angelic or a serif encounter. But it mimics the earmarks of someone having an encounter with radiation technology. Yeah, it could just be in different interpretation. Sure.

The same phenomenon. Right. I mean, it just seems so similar. Right. I think you made a great point. Like we've got this, and we talk about this in the show, we've this meeting, we inherit this medieval understanding of angels.

And the super, you know, we look at, you know, the work of Da Vinci and these things, and there's these chiro, there's babies, and that becomes sort of our unconscious understanding of a very real realm. Yeah. Right?

Yeah, it does. And so when you actually encounter that realm in real life, It doesn't. No, you were like, what the heck is that? Yeah, it doesn't make sense because you're expecting someone with a winged, a winged thing, a thing with wings and halos to show up and a craft shows up. Right. Right. Instead. That's right. And it's... And you know, Teresa of Avela had the same experience, and this was in the 1500s. Okay, this is in Spain. And so she, and by the way, this gets redacted. So this totally, the Catholic Church redacts it because it doesn't fit into their theology. Tell us that story. Okay, so she is a nun. And very intelligent woman can read and write and does all these amazing things. And she is just, you know, having a normal day when something shows up near her that's on her left side and it's small. And it's about three feet tall and it's all fiery on, you know, shiny. And she thinks in her head because she actually writes about it herself.

She gives her own report. She says, I think this might be an angel, but I've never seen an angel that looks like this. Another thing is that it is short. And another thing is that it has a dart. It has this dart that has fire at the end of it. Okay. And then it actually examines her kind of like what you see in John Mack. It does this, yeah, it goes into her entrails.

Okay. And so she says, and it was a weird experience, like, you know, very, she's ambivalent about. She says, well, she says it's both ecstatic and horrifying. So she says this, and she says it's real, it's not imagination. And later Catholic redactors change it to, this couldn't have happened because angels don't show up this way. So, yeah, so it's great that we have her own experience. And by the way, this is also like that. It's one of the most represented angel contact events in history.

Really? Yeah, it's called Teresa Vavala's, uh, to see. And Bernini made a statue about it that paints that being like a cherub. Like a little child. Yeah. So we think that it's this cute little cherub thing. That comes from, by the way, Greek culture and Roman culture. That's Eros. Eros, yeah. Yeah. So that's a pre-Christian. They're borrowing. They're borrowing imagery. Yeah, it's an image. Yeah. How many different factions of these alien angels do you think there are? Because I mean, on our show, we've heard the insectilins,

which looks like these praying mantis things that are down on the ground. The grays, the talls and the short ones, three-foot ones, two-foot ones, and then the eight-foot ones that are supposedly... Like a Nordic. Someone saw that in Vegas. The Nordics, these tall, paladian blonde ones. And then you have, you know, bigger, big-eyed version of the grays. And then Angelic beans.

He said, serif. Yeah, I mean... What are your thoughts on that? Because I think some people are just easy to lump it all into one. Aliens. Wow. What? Just like an angel.

What kind of angel? There's many different types of angels. Yeah. So there are taxonomy of angels, right? Sure. So that, okay, so medieval scholastics had this. And, you know, the thing is that they're kind of like mathematicians, right? Or scientists who are trying to understand quantum theory.

Like they pose some, this is our theory now. and it changes with time because they approximate it because they're trying to get this model of reality but they don't know the reality intimately that they can't say what it is so they approximate it

and then they have this theory about it I think that those taxonomies are theories about these beings I'm still trying to wrap my head around the reality that they exist and so for me to like try to make a taxonomy I'm not there

I can't do it I can only accept that there are many different ones because it appears that, you know, people talk about different ones. And I, you know, there's so many of these stories. But I can't, I don't know, like how many. Yeah, I just, I think that's, you know, we didn't even talk about the reptilians, you know, which sounds like, which sounds like the UFO wreckage. You know, maybe the reptilian is flying around the, the frog skinned one. Yeah, it does. Doesn't it? That's what people have said to me. Like, you keep saying that reptilian stuff. And I'm like, But hey, you know, people wrap their cars.

You know, you see the rose. Maybe the reptilians just wrap their UFOs and just cruise. Yeah, I mean, I can't deny that that's what we found, right? But that is a wild story. I mean, you actually went there and picked up. Not many uphologists. I mean, I think that would be like the Bigfoot event for all the cryptic seekers. You picked up and you held UFO records.

That's what Tyler said to me. Tyler said, because I picked it up and looked at it, you know, and Tyler was like, wow, your reaction. is so odd and I was like odd and he goes don't you get it this is historical what you're holding is historical yeah I was like where is it now I don't know I think it's with Gary but I don't honestly I don't know where he keeps it I know that Stanford supports Gary which is great supposedly the guy that we interviewed that had the wreckage went on a radio show old school radio show and then disappeared quickly after that what yeah they took him out and there's pictures of this

guy like he sent us photos of this trapper a guy a guy a guy He's sitting there by his government trap or he's sitting there by his government trust. And then he was just he went on a radio show and it's gone. He's gone. Yeah. That was the that was the backstory of that. So I don't I don't think that this is like something that people want circulating in the population. No, no, of course.

I've got a question like so looking forward, right? Your new book is encounters and you're talking about the sort of we're on the cusp, right? What, what, in light of also what's happening today in the halls of Congress, like what, where do you see happening next? Like, do you think that we have like a disclosure or a contact event? Do you think this thing is going to still slowly, even for show, leak out? What do you think happens next? Because you're really on the forefront of the research part of compiling everything that's happening.

And we are really in a unique time. You held pieces of reported wreckage of a UFO, right? These things are the biggest things that's happened to, you. humanity in the modern era as far as our post I would say post academic sort of era right like I think the idea of the interaction between angels and humans you know testament was much much more of a commonplace I mean I made a common place but just understood it wasn't weird but we're we've kind of jumped the shark across rubicon if you will maybe we're still having them we just don't write it down the same way it could be but what do you think happen what do you what do you

think happens next future yeah like in the next you know next whatever next few years with all of this. Yeah. Okay, so just a quick anecdote about me writing this paper that's taken me two years to write. Okay, so it's an encyclopedia entry for Oxford Encyclopedia on, they named it, not me. They named it aliens and UFOs. Okay. And it's, you know, how do you do that?

So it's good, you know, those are usually small entries, but it's huge because I had to. I solicited the help of all these scientists who've been doing this for the last 40 years. or more. And I cite them. Okay, so I want to give credit where credit should be due, right, to the whole history, in the United States, at least, of this. I do try to include Australia and some other places, too. So lots is coming from the Invisible College. Yeah. Well, the thing is, is that, so I write it and I send it in, and this is like two years ago almost, and it goes through peer review and what happens is it goes to most likely members of like the Galileo project and you know those guys right and so they say that um or affiliated not ovi lobe himself but affiliated with that and

they're they're physicists and astronomers right and they're they know this topic but they told me not to use these names of several of the people because that i named because those weren't credible scientists. Now, I know for a fact that those scientists that they say are not credible have been paid by our government. They brief our government on this topic. So that shows you how behind academics are on this topic. They're paid experts for our government. Yeah. So how can these people who you may not know who they are but you know, their work is legit and they actually work for your government and they're they're paid experts. on this topic and I'm citing them.

And so that was uncomfortable. That was an uncomfortable situation that I had to deal with. And it looks like it's going to be published. Okay, let's go. But I did have to rearrange some things, you know? All right. So that happens. So that's, that's, so academia, sadly, is, is probably not at the forefront here.

Well, yeah. Of what's going to happen next. Yeah, I mean, from the beginning of our show when we brought the Bigfoot scientist on, and he was kind of making it sound like if I wasn't a tenured professor, I would have been booted out of here because I was a laughing stock of the college. People, other professors making fun of me and putting Bigfoot statues around and teasing me because of my work. But I mean, the idea is like if your work is good, it's going to cause some controversy. That's true. That's true. That's what you have to embrace when you do this work.

Yeah. But someone who works in religious studies, because the way that information is disseminated now, do you think we'll have a disclosure event where our government will disclose? I don't necessarily think it was going to be the truth per se, but they'll, because you've talked about this oral narrative. So you really have these two things. You have what the public is fed or leaked or conditioned through Hollywood, et cetera, or what we're told or gets out. And then you have this meta-narrative of what's actually happening. Do you think we reach a disclosure point where the government says, okay, got us. We've got. Kind of like an Osama bin Laden, like, we got them. And then you talk to people behind the scenes and they're like, there's way more to this.

Yeah. Is it kind of one of those things? That's right. Yes, yes. So the thing is, is that the whistleblowers who are wonderful people and happy that they're doing that, they're always secondhand knowledge. Well, I'm a person with firsthand knowledge. Yeah. Right. And so they're going to keep putting whistleblowers that are safe up there in Congress as a show. Like this is what people are going to accept. On the other hand, the people that actually do know something, they're going to use tactics that are harassing to try to get information from us. hopefully all my stuff is out there published. So, you know, but I have had lots of people. Like, you're, you're so public. It's safe, right, in a way. Like, I feel like Bob did that be, like he came out. And I think his whole thing was, if you hide in the public, in the center of the public eye, it's much harder to be disappeared.

Or to, you know, then if you are, I don't know, anybody who's, who just happens to know something and says something offhanded, right? Like, it's a safe place to be as an academic. And then also, because everything is published, what are they gonna do? Like, there's not any secret knowledge. That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. We hope so, right? Right. So yeah, so that's what I think. I don't think

we're going to have that from the government. And I'm sorry to say that. I'm working with people who are working hard to do that. Yeah. And but honestly, I just don't think so. Just because we've had this since the 1950s and 60s. We've had these congressional type of hearings, right, where credible witnesses come forward and talk. And even more so, you know, well, we did have. have Ryan Graves and he has, you know, seen and he has, he has received so many reports from pilots. My friend, Dr. E. O. Whiteley, same thing. She's a pilot as well, trains pilots. So we do have these reports. They could get people up there to talk about the real thing. They really could, but they're not going to do it. They're not going to do it. It's strange.

Do you think that, like, they've been communicating with us for a long time? Like, it makes me think about the crop circle phenomena and like some of it some of those are faked but a lot of them aren't and are they trying to say something to us communicate to us in some sort of way yeah so i do think that so i think that consciousness is a is a um an access point so i think that the early church like look what happened to francis he's up there on the screen now so um here he is he's he's trying to talk to angels. He's praying on a mountain and he's praying to God, right? And it's on the feast day of the archangels. So he's basically his mind or something in his consciousness is accessing this other realm. And they come, right? So I think that there is, now saying that, I think that

you do not do this. You don't try to access it unless you just, you know, because there are bad ones and I've seen this too so I've had so many people come to me like thousands of people at this point with information reports and so most most of them are really bad yeah so don't do this in your life right so religious traditions have evolved you know constraints on how we access these realms and listen to those like those are the things we shouldn't throw out we should you know we should be careful and this is kind of where I think we disagree, I personally disagree with like, with Joe Rogan and his ideas around psychedelics

because those experiences, and he says it. And a lot of people in this space who are in the psychedelic space say that they're having real encounters with real entities. But man, the people that, of faith that get there, they'll tell you quickly that there's like a false Jesus that walks around, that there are these entities that say, say these things and know these things about you. But it doesn't feel like we're supposed to do that.

Yeah, I would say don't. Yeah. Especially because I've had people come to me with knowledge of stuff they shouldn't know about me. And I know they were bad people, like I could tell. And so people don't have the discernment that the religious traditions suggest that you practice. Right. There's a way to access.

You know, we have the Holy Spirit. There's a way to access God, to pray to God. Jesus showed us that. in the garden how to how to pray they ask some very simple question which is a loaded question but like I do think I think it's interesting I just think this whole conversation is as we you know this is what Nate I've been doing for years is trying to unpack angels in some ways like what are we actually talking about these is a Greek word means messenger this is well I was just going to say that I mean messenger is a big part of the angels I mean it's their job to bring us

messages that's right that's right and I think they do yeah and I think that that happens I mean it sounds like that person who's playing was, you know, he was saved, his life was saved. I would call that an angelic situation, right? So. But associating angels and UFOs, it's not a wild. Is that where you're at? Oh, there's a direct lineage, historical lineage, because if you unpack what an angel actually looks like, that's imagery that we see and we've been brought up with, that's actually not even, that's pre-Christian imagery, right?

So that's imagery that domesticates the event, the angel contact event. And generally even, like, look at Mary, you know, be not afraid. This is repeated over and over again in the Bible for a reason because it's scary. It's a scary event. And, you know, when you don't ask for it and it comes and it imparts knowledge that you need from, you know, God is sending a messenger, I believe that that's true. I believe that that's good, okay. But I think that Allow that to happen

Don't look for it Yeah Yeah Yeah, I think so That's my I mean I could change my mind But after what I've experienced I'm not I don't think I'm

Yeah careful what you pray for sometimes You have to have that humility factor And I think a lot of people don't They go looking for it And especially with these people trying to contact aliens They're just out there on the shining lasers into the sky And they're like come down and hang out with us Independence State.

The beginning of Independence State where they're like, come. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, all dance on the top of it. Yeah. It's like, boom. And then it's like, see you.

But yeah, I think that it is a terrifying event. And you have to think about there's probably a lot of things going on in that event that not just a being standing there. But maybe there's an entourage of weird stuff that they've brought with them. And you're looking into. And a lot of people who are seers on our show, too, often will say some bizarre stuff and see bizarre stuff. And it's hard as podcasters and then hosts and know, okay, are you seeing good things? Are you seeing bad things? Are they manipulating your perception?

Are they presenting you a false light? I don't know. Like how are we, you know, how are we supposed to make sense of these encounters? I think that's where the Bible forbids a lot of these things. I think so to keep us safe. Yeah. Yeah. Because we have like if consciousness is an access point, it's very important to keep it sovereign.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just talking to the dead, you're not supposed to do it. It's not that you can't. Right. Shouldn't because you don't know. Go back to the medium. Back to the medium talk.

Yeah. You're not supposed to. It's pretty specific. You don't do that. Yeah. I guess one of my last questions is now, like, where, if you had a conversation with yourself 12 years ago before you got into this, you know, how would that go? And what would you, you know, what do you, how to, I know, I know, I know that's impossible

to do, but I'm just trying to think of like where you are now versus where you were. Yeah. Would you look at yourself and be like, you are nuts? you're out of your mind or is there a part of you that this truth, this understanding is all, you've always, you've always wanted to know the truth. It didn't matter what it was. Yeah. So, you know, I was, I had a conversion experience at 11. So I still have that Bible that I made my mother by me after that. It's the King James Version, red letter edition, still have that. That's cool. Keep it. And so I asked God, and it wasn't then. It was in my 20s. I said, God, I really want to know, you know, and then I went through training, right, to learn about the Bible and everything like that.

And I think that what I would say to myself in 2012, I know what my 2012 self would say to me now. I would say, are you crazy? Yeah. Like, why did you do that? But looking back, I thank God, really. I thank God for it. And I also, because God has showed me, right? Yeah.

And it was shocking, frankly. And I would say, Diana of the past, it's going to be okay. You're going to go out of your comfort zone, and it's going to be hard. And be okay with that because in the end today, you'll get a break. You'll get a break. Yeah. I mean, that's cool. I mean, you start this journey, and then you actually get to hold UFO wreckage, and not many people get to do that.

And early on, probably it probably might have been a little more of a, a mind grenade now maybe. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the time, I was... But I think it's great, though, because it's so organic, because you are so skeptical. You're not out looking for this in a sense,

like chasing this down. It kind of comes to you, and you go, and you go, I don't know. And then you're holding it and you go, maybe there's something to this. Yeah, I think that's incredible. Yeah, it is. I mean, because you, you know,

you just don't get those opportunities. It feels like something that God would do because I think that there are so many people truth seekers that are just desperately willing to sell their soul to see a big foot or to get on a UFO craft even if it's a terrible experience. They just want the tangible experience, but then it just kind of presents itself to you. And I think that's important. And, you know, I just appreciate you be willing to share with our listeners that because we find ourselves in a weird intersect between skeptics and believers. And I think over the years, we've, we've grown. Before this show started,

I mean, I was more in the Bigfoot space. And now I'm like, there's a whole, other world of blurry creatures in the skies, not just in the woods. And I also appreciate your work because I think it's so important as Christians that we create a framework to contextualize this, right? Because I do think that things that are this out of the box or that seem this far out of the box or mainstream church have the potential to derail people from their faith. And I think that's why the work, I think your work is so important because of where you sit and what you do.

Yeah. And because you are a professor of religion, looking at this provides framework within our faith. Say, our faith is big enough. Let's just looking back in the past. And we can go, St. Francis Vassisi. And this weird, looks like an abduction thing that happened. All these things are written down. And then we have the Bible.

We can talk about Jacob. And we can talk about Abraham and the angel of the Lord doing these things, walking, talking, eating, wrestling. And perhaps, not even more perhaps, but we believe in this space that this is, these are some of the most important conversations. to have because what's happening today in the halls of Congress, I think without context for Christians could be something that's just like, this disqualifies my faith. Yes, exactly. I think that's what a lot of people say, and a lot of people from the government are trying to get me to say that.

Like, say that this is going to make people who are religious, non-religious. And I'm like, no, it's not going to. It's going to do the opposite. Because look what happened to me. Right. Just last thing, the thing that Francis did write was the Tau Cross to Brother Leo convert. Now. That's what it does.

Wow. Convert now? Convert now. That's right. Everyone out there? Convert now. If you're listening to this. Yeah.

We'd love to tell our listeners where your books are or where to interact with you. Oh, sure. Yeah. I have a website, DWPasoka.com. And I also am on D.W. Posulka at Twitter and Instagram at this moment, I think on LinkedIn too. And on Amazon. My books are on Amazon.

Awesome. Luke's going to send you his first reggae Christian band. Oh, yeah. Exactly. With the hit song, I saw the seraph. That's right. That's right. I'm going to try that joke second time, see if the play it.

Yeah. New Books Encounters. Experiences with non-human intelligences. And for all our audio listeners, you can see all this stuff on our YouTube channel on the full video now. So I appreciate you coming into the studio. Yeah. Yeah. So happy to be here.

It's such a great studio. Yeah, we're having fun and hope you enjoy your time in Nashville. Yeah. And just thanks for being so great. We've loved all. Yeah. Just our experiences with you. Yeah.

Yeah, you've been amazing for showing up being here with us. We'll have to do another one because I feel like there's so much more information here, so many questions I'm going to ask. Yeah, I'm going to get into AI and things about we do. Yeah, we'd love to have you at our conference also next year. Love to come. Love Tennessee. Oh, come on, right.

Okay. Well, thanks, Anna. All right, thank you. Thank you.