Blurry Creatures - EP: 294 The Sins of Angels with Tim Alberino

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

Blurry Creatures welcomes back explorer and author Tim Alberino for a deep dive into the controversy surrounding the Book of Enoch! From the sins of the angels to the paradox of free will in heaven, Tim tackles the big questions that have left theologians scratching their heads. Are the Watchers to blame for humanity’s darkest days? Can rebellion exist in the divine realm? And why does Enoch's account still unsettle readers today? Tune in for a no-holds-barred discussion on the most controversial elements of this ancient text. Get our Book of Enoch! https://amzn.to/4gpV4yZ COSTA RICA TICKETS! https://www.eventcreate.com/e/costarica2025 Video Episodes Drop Every Tuesday! Blurry Creatures Socials https://www.tiktok.com/@blurrycreatures https://www.instagram.com/blurrycreatures https://www.facebook.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.twitter.com/blurrycreatures/ Special Thanks for Platinum Members! Joshua Drummond Maureen Munoz Ambet Freeman Nicolle Benz Zach Mills Adam Dougherty Desiree Nichols Kate Logan Kimberly Lee Fayola Shakes Suzanna Wenzel Kent Denmark Michelle Watkins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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They're having sex with human women. These women are conceiving and giving birth to these hybrid entities. That does not comfortably fit into the conventional Western Christian paradigm. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. God bequeaths dominion of the earth to mankind. You can think of that as the deed of the earth being given to Adam and his offspring forever. And so we govern this place. We govern the earth.

Fallen angels don't govern planet Earth. We govern planet Earth. Mankind. Good, bad, or indifferent. And so if their plan is to, A, take these women as wives, B, procreate with them, progener, a race of hybrid offspring, then it follows that C, their aim, their goal is dominion of the earth. Proximal authority through the agency of their hybrid sons, because their watchers are not human. They have no right to the earth, but their hybrid sons do, because they're human enough

to appropriate the dominion of the earth through the bloodline of Adam. The history of our earth is so different from what. what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right,

it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this. This guy defects from the kingdom.

That's a big deal. All right. Welcome back to Blurry Creatures. We have another episode with Tim Alborino today on the podcast. Tim's in the basement. Welcome to the basement, Tim. And our most popular episode last year was the Book of Enoch episode. And obviously we put out a book together, the Book of Enoch.

And we've been talking about that since the podcast started, Luke, and asking questions about, you know, is this sort of the Rosetta Stone, to how you understand a lot of the themes in the Old Testament. And so it's good to have you back on the podcast. And we're excited to kind of get back into a part two. I think the first time we did this episode, we talked about sort of, you know, the macro of the biblical writers had read this book. There's themes that even Jesus talks about with the Book of Enoch. And I think a lot of times people want to know what's specifically in the book of Enoch.

What are some of the stories in there? And we can kind of maybe zoom in a little bit and talk about. the actual content in the book, some questions that might arise. Obviously, we have the book out on Amazon and we actually have the audio now and the Kindle version. So we have three versions of the book of Enoch available to everybody. Well, it's good to be back in the Blery basement. Well, there is certainly a lot of controversy circulating around the book of Enoch. And I think the three of us are we probably have something to do with that. Because after we published our book, Book of Enok.

Yeah. I noticed an uptick in the conversation and controversy around the Book of Enok. The controversy is, in my estimation, generally speaking, unwarranted, although there are a couple caveats to that. But the Book of Enoch, as I like to say, you cannot separate the Book of Enoch from the narrative of the Old Testament or the New Testament, really. it is foundational in Hebrew cosmology, the way that the Hebrews perceived their universe and the origin of certain beings in their universe.

So you simply cannot separate it out. It's impossible. So people who say, well, the Book of Enoch is not true or it's not useful or it's not relevant just have not been reading their Bibles carefully enough. because it is inseparable. It's, now it gets complicated because there are three versions of the book of Enoch, as most people are aware,

first Enoch, second Enoch, and third Enoch. We're only interested in first Enoch here, although we do have all three of them in our book, in our published version of the, our version of the book of Enoch. But first Enoch is the only, version that is relevant to this discussion because second and third enoch were written later and are written in the Mercaba tradition. If you can listen to our first episode go back and that

that's like a long discussion of why that is. But I think there's so much in the book of the watchers, the intro basically, or the book of the Enoch that we're talking about. There's characters in there. It's very specific. and it's defined and it gives you, it's not sort of a black and white of like, how do we interpret these things? It's giving you actual details. And I think that's hard for a lot of people.

They want things to say vague and they don't want to implement those things into their worldview. So the relevant narrative, the relevant narrative that you're referring to comes from First Enoch. And it comes particularly from the first section of First Enoch,

which is the earliest part of the compilation. First Enoch is a compilation of text. It's not one author. It's definitely more than one author. And the different books appear to have been written at different times, or at least portions of First Enoch were written at different times. The book of the Watchers is the narrative. And that's what I call the Anacian tale. That's the story that undergirds, as I was saying earlier, it undergirds so much of what we'd find in both the Old and New Testament. And that story is remarkable. And most people are familiar with that story. It involves these beings called watchers who descend to the earth in the days of Jared. And the watcher designation is not

exclusively extra-biblical. It's found in the book of Daniel. So these watcher entities were known to the writers of the Old Testament. Again, we're not just in a realm of extra-biblical content here. And this, the Book of Enoch amplifies one of the most, I would say, one of the most famous verses in the Bible, which are the first verses of Genesis 6. But also very cryptic, right? Because I think, this is what we've talked about in the past on the show, is that you get four verses and then Moses, if we're a ascribe the Pentateuch to Moses, most people do, just moves on. And so, yeah, very famous, but also like there's not a lot of explanations. there and that's when we talked last time that's kind of where this that's where the book of the watchers comes in right this is this is the story that moses is referring to which i think we can assume that in the ancient near east the audience that moses is is is writing to in genesis and

is very familiar with this right because that's the that's there has to be the assumption otherwise it really doesn't make a lot of sense that it's just sort of left there hanging and then he moves on, right? This is a massive, massive epic of a story. I point this out in the action, in the introduction to our edition of the book of Ennob, this is perhaps the most mystifying, one of the most mystifying verses or a collection of verses in the Bible. Some people would consider it the most mystifying. And of course, we're talking about Genesis chapter 6, the first couple of verses which read when men began to multiply in the face of the land and daughters were born unto them.

The sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive, and they took as their wives any they chose. The Nephilim, or giants, were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man, and they bore children to them, these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. And in the introduction to our book of Enoch, I write, and this is something that I think escapes a lot of theologians

and even scholars when they read Genesis 6. I write, notice that no effort is made to further elucidate the details of this peculiar digression in the Genesis narrative. It is evident, therefore, that the author, perhaps Moses, is relying on the reader's presumed knowledge of the infamous affair, which must have been thoroughly chronicled elsewhere in the Hebrake scriptures and widely disseminated as oral traditions. This is why you have the writer of Genesis making this bizarre reference to the sons of God, marrying the daughters of men, assumedly copulating with them, and producing as a result this race of Nephilim giants. And the reason why this verse is so mystifying to us as Western readers is because we don't have the background. But the readers of Genesis did have the background.

They understood exactly this story that the writer of Genesis is alluding to here. This was not controversial to them, and it was not mystifying to them. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple.

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It matters where you stay. Hilton, for this day. Precisely because this story was known as oral tradition and I think was actually written in a scroll in the synagogue. Now, what that scroll would have been called, who knows? Probably not the Book of Enoch. But it is interesting to note that the same verses, the same wording is found. is found, almost word for word, is found in the Book of Enoch, in First Enoch, and curiously also registers these same verses in the first and second verses of chapter six. This was the R.H. Charles

version. This is from the Book of Enoch. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of heaven saw and lusted after them, and said to one another, come, let us choose wives, from among the children of men and beget us children. So in my estimation, the writer of Genesis is just copying and pasting from the book of Enoch. He's literally copying pasting from the book of Enoch. And the reader, the ancient Hebrew, would have known that, would have understood that that was the referent, right? It's important to note also that if you read the Septuagin, if you read Genesis 6 and the Septuagint, you're going to read instead of the sons of God, you're going to read the

angels. So the Septuagin is even more specific than the Masoretic text. Tim, you think you think it was that way? You think that Moses or the presumptive writer of Genesis is taking from Enoch? Or do you think the writers of Enoch are taking that from Genesis 6? This is where I strongly disagree with scholars, with most scholars. Most scholars will say that the writer of Enoch, of First Enoch, is being influenced by the book of Genesis. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense because obviously there's some kind of, at the very least, oral tradition here. And it's being assumed, it's presumed by the right of Genesis, that everybody reading this knows what he's talking about.

That these ancient Hebrews who are reading Genesis know what he's talking about. So to me, it's a logical inference that something existed, that the Inocyan material, whatever form it had, oral written, existed first. It came first. And in fact, I believe that the Anacian tale, and perhaps even a manuscript itself of First Enoch, not exactly the way we have it today, that that manuscript, that oral tradition,

originated in the pre-flood world with Enoch. That would be my position. So not only does it predate the book of Genesis, it predates the flood of Noah. Now, that is not to say, I'll reiterate, that the book of Enoch, as we have it today, that it was written before the book of Genesis. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the original manuscript... The idea, the concepts. The oral tradition predates the book of Genesis. We were joking about Arnold Schwarzenegger before this, and it's like you watch Terminator 2, and you already understand there's this ancient war going on, or this is, sorry, this technological war going on between humans and machines, and you know kind of the backstory. And so it jumps right into the, it jumps right into the

tale of, okay, well, then this machine comes back. And this time, it's a good guy, right? And sometimes when you're reading the Bible, you're like, okay, there's a first movie somewhere that we didn't watch. There's like this whole narrative that we don't understand, but we can see it in the second, or in the scriptures that there's other, there's other, there's other parts of the story that we just don't know. That didn't make it. They didn't make it into this cut. So I think, you know, we've talked about that a lot. And I think, I think what the problem is a lot of Christians have, but like I said in the beginning is that angels are sinning, right? Angels are doing something. And I want to ask you some questions about that because we assume that the

garden is the, how everything's corrupted. And only human beings are able, or, or are corrupted part of creation. But this is like opening a door of like, wait a minute, angels are lusting after humans? Is that part of their knowledge? Are they able? What is their free will?

What are they able to do and not do? And what does that mean for humans? That means there's multiple things going wrong? Because I think we only want to subscribe. There's only one event in human history. That was a problem. And that was the Garden of Eden. And nothing else.

You know what I'm saying? It's like it opens up these doors that angels and humans, we don't really know where we are. We don't know where we stand. I think the problem that many Western Christians have when approaching this topic isn't so much that angels sin because every Christian I've ever interfaced with believes in quote-unquote fallen angels, right? I mean, the devil. Or the serpent in the garden, right? The quintessential or origin, our origin story, but also the origin of what we would consider to be like a fallen angel or a, yeah, something evil lurks in the garden.

So Christians axiomatically accept the idea that angels can be really bad, dastardly, malevolent creatures, right, beings. I think the real problem in the minds, again, of Western-thinking Christians is that angels can copulate. That's the problem, that angels can have sexual intercourse with human women, lust after them, and then actually commit the act. And furthermore, that they have the power to progenerate, to procreate with these women. Well, there's all the implications, right? Like, just biologically. And we've talked about this on the show with you. I mean, you've been, you're a double-digitist guy on blurry creatures, and if we love. But we've talked, I mean, yeah,

Because what I like about your approach to a lot of the stories and the pre-story is, is a pragmatic look at it. If these things are true, and we believe these things to be true of the word, of the inerrant word of God, then we can reverse engineer these things and we can make, we can make pretty strong hypotheses off of these based upon the end result. Right. What you're saying now is if if angels can procreate, then there's probably a set of assumptions that we can make about angels based upon said result, which is in the word of God, which I like

that approach because it has a linear logical explanation. Unlike a lot of, and I don't know we know the answer to this, but a lot of what we hear, right, outside of these conversations is like angels took on human form. We talked about this much on the show. It's poof, right? They just They took the form of. They took a form of it. And you know, okay, we can go, we can talk about skin walkers. We can get way off in the weeds about things that shape shift, if you will. But it doesn't seem like that's what the word is saying or what the Bible's saying. I'm going to highlight the critical flaw in that thinking. Here's the problem. Before they had sexual intercourse with these women, they lusted. That's conspicuous in the book of being.

Yeah, so semi, his name is Semihaza, right? Simjaza. Sam Jaza. There's the variations of his name, but Sim Jaze's the one. 200, 200 angels, right? 200 watchers, yeah. They come down on Mount Herman. There's like a, it feels like an old school story, you know, like something that's not,

it's like a fairy tale, right? And I think that's, so they come down, they lust. But that's what I'm trying to say. I think that the conversation is interesting. Where are they lusting? You actually got it backwards. They lusted first. Yeah, yeah, but where are they?

Now, that's an important distinction because those who say, well, they just materialized with flesh, they, I think that they would say, yeah, they can lust after they have flesh. But the problem is that they lusted first. So here's a question. Lust is a sexual impulse. And the only reason you have that impulse is because of your biology. Okay. Yeah. We, in the ancient times, a king would have a harem, and he would appoint a man, a male to caretake that harem.

But what would he do to that male first? It's a eunuch. That's right. He would make him a eunuch. He would cut off his manhood precisely so that that person could not, what? Lust after his wives and his concubines. So what I'm trying to say here, I'm trying to do it very delicately, is that if angels are lusting after women first, first before they descend to the earth, that means that they have the equipment, okay? They have the biology.

How does a spiritual being know lust if they don't have a body? And that's the first point of contention here. It's what I call the first cause of the defection of the watchers. They lusted. They burned with sexual desire for human women. Now, there's two things we can infer from this. A, we can infer that they have the biology that would be appropriate for the sexual impulse even to be felt.

They have manhood of some kind, let's say. And B. and B, they have the capacity to not only engage in intercourse, but to procreate with human beings. So what does that tell us about these creatures, about these beings? It tells us that they are reproductively compatible with us. They say everything happens for a reason, but I suspect everything happens for a reases. Like this commercial break, did you need 15 seconds away from music? Or 15 seconds to eat or Reese's.

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It's actually in chapter six. It opens up with some prophetic content that's relevant to us living at the end of the age. And then the narrative, the story begins in chapter six, just like that's alluded to in Genesis. and I just read the verses, that the watchers, they were looking down. This is what it says in Genesis 6, and this is what it says in Enoch chapter 6, that the watchers are looking at the children,

the daughters of men. They're observing them, and they're burning with lust for them. Again, the Genesis account says that they saw that they were comely, which means beautiful, but the Inakian version says that they lusted. Okay. And again, Genesis is deriving from Enoch.

This story is deriving from either the oral tradition or a manuscript that was in circulation among the ancient Hebrews. So the watchers are lusting. Not only are they lusting, they come up with this plan that they're going to descend to the earth. They know that this is going to be a great offense. against the king of heaven, this is going to amount to a severe transgression. That's why they bind themselves by mutual imprecations.

In other words, it's all for one and one for all. And we're going to, all of us reap the consequences of this great sin, they call it. The angels themselves call it a great sin in the book of Enoch. And they're going to bear the responsibility together. They're binding themselves by. mutual imprecations. So they know that what they're about to do is a great sin. And they have three things in mind. And two of those things are explicit in the text. And the other thing is, and the other, the third one is implicit. The two are, the first two are they want to copulate

with these women. They want to take them as wives and copulate with them. And the second thing is they want to, through these wives, procreate offspring. They want to have families. You think they know? They know what? Do you think they know that that, is it just the lust and they just want to go through it? Oh, no. It says as much in the book of Enoch that they want to take the women as wives and they want to create offspring.

They want to procreate with them. And then the third thing, as I said, isn't explicit in the text, but it can be inferred. There's a reason why they want these hybrid offspring. And the inference says that they want dominion of the earth. And that's what I write about my book, Birthright. These things are undeniable, okay? You cannot lust after a human woman if you don't have some kind of biology. If you cannot feel the infatis, the sexual impulse.

And so all of these theories about, well, they were spiritual beings and then they took on flesh. Or there's another theory out there that they inhabited. the bodies of men, other men, and like almost like demon possession, and then through these men, they copulated with the women. But all of these theories and any other that can be offered must account for the first cause, namely the watchers lusted. In heaven, lusted after the daughters. Yeah, maybe they have an upgraded version of a human body. But I think what the problem is, isn't really it's that it explodes your concept of when did sin entered the world what is sin let's view this let's go back a little bit they're standing let's say they're standing on the fields of heaven looking

over the edge right they're they're out of the house they're on the edge and they're looking down and they're having a sinful moment in heaven which is a very hard idea that's for christians to they can't connect these two because they're like no there is no sin in heaven that's a good point but how did lucifer Obviously, we don't understand heaven. We have, I think that we have a, in some respects, we have a very medieval view of the biblical content. We have these ideas that have been ingrained in us that are not necessarily textually justified. In fact, I would say that many of them are contradictory. even to even set aside the book of enoch even if we're just having a conversation about genesis six

right now we have the same problem see because the angels of heaven are are desiring human women they want to take them as wives so they're having their they're having their own eden moment they're having their own temptation that's a good way to put it yeah and that is we always think sin entered the world at one specific time it's one specific event And human beings are, you know, that is the ultimate problem for humanity. It's just that garden. That's it. You talked to guys like Heiser and he says, there's multiple things going on.

But that, I mean, we have to say, like, Lucifer was that the original angelic sin? Was his jealousy? Him wanting to. He defected from the kingdom and that was a big deal. And in my opinion, that happened a long time before the watchers' defection. Yeah, yeah. So I think. What does that say about heaven, right?

who have this being in heaven having this free will moment. I think that for a lot of folks, the idea, even the idea of angelic free will is a hard one. Even though we know there's rebellions in heaven, it should be like part and parcel. I feel like the idea that there is this, that angels have free will is even hard for a lot of Christians, right? Because I do believe what you say is true,

that like we have a lot of medieval thinking about sort of the operations, the operation, if you will, or the way things work in heaven. Yeah, I think that's a hard one, right? Like, what other implications does that have if angels have free will? Well, I would expect angels to have free will. From my worldview, I believe that the human species, that human beings are the younger sibling of the sons of God in heaven. We were supposed to be the sons of God on earth. Adam was a son of God, according to the genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth. He was a son of God.

Well, there's these other son of gods that clearly pre-exist Adam. They're referred to as the morning stars. They're singing together and shouting for joy. The sons of God are shouting for joy. The morning stars are singing together as the foundations of the earth are being laid by God. So that is a statement of angelic pre-existence. They pre-exist us. And they have emotions, and they have feelings, and they have thoughts, and their excitement. I'm like lust. They make music.

They're creative. See, you have all these trendy pastors here in America who say, well, human beings are different because we're creative. We have free will. We are sentient beings. Why are they excluding angels? Why? What gives them the justification, what scripture justifies the statement that they are not like us, that we are somehow more special than angels and that we are alone made in the image of God,

that exclusively mankind is made in the image of God, and we're so special because we're creative, and we are, we are, we have the same kind of sentient construct as God, and that makes us unique. Show me in the Bible where that is ever, ever said or even alluded to in any way. It's not. In fact, the opposite is true. Angels do everything that we do, everything. We see them doing everything in the Bible in both the historical narrative, a prophetic, context. Angels are singing. They're making music. They're eating. They're drinking. They're making

merry. They're celebrating. They're doing very dastardly things on the earth. They're obviously exceedingly emotional creatures, exceedingly emotional. And obviously also highly intelligent. And I would say in possession of advanced technology. So we're looking at a civilization here, And this is the problem. We approach, we as Christians living in the 21st century, we approach the scriptures like people living in the Bronze Age or the Iron Age or in the 13th century in the medieval times. LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business.

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for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com slash small business. And we don't feel like we are allowed to approach the same stories, to approach this content as a modern thinker. But I think I'm entitled to approach this content as a modern thinker. So when I read about angels in the biblical narrative,

when I see everything they're doing, what my mind does is it says civilization, civilization. It doesn't say the spiritual realm or the supernatural realm. It says rather civilization. This is a civilization. everything we do they do. Or the inverse of that because if we come after, everything they do, we do, right? And then Genesis 6th narrative is that, in Enoch, the Enochian narrative is that we do what they taught us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I was going to say is it's like we reject the book of Enoch more because it's theological implications rather than its proof in the context. That means like these being. show up and like what do they do they show us physical things so such a sorcery weapon making cosmetics astrology enchantment so they have this knowledge they teach us physical things but also why do they want to teach us that so what you know what I'm saying like corrupt mankind with the knowledge so but is that knowledge specifically wrong as it is that's a good see that's a very good question. The answer is no. It's about how you apply knowledge. Knowledge itself is not

bad and knowledge itself is not is not relegated to the realm of the occult, like secret knowledge. No, it's... It's not Einsteinian paradigm, right? Like what he said is it it wasn't that he understood the makings of the atomic bomb. We go to the Manhattan Project. It's that he he regretted that they took that knowledge and they made it into a weapon. Right. Right. It's the same.

Right. Knowledge itself is not bad. It is dangerous. Yes. Especially if it's handed to immature, exceedingly flawed beings such as ourselves. Too much knowledge and power in our hands becomes very destructive. We've seen that over and over in the annals of history.

But the watchers had an intent. And here's, there's two things here. They had an intent when they taught mankind these secrets. And they also, I think, taught these secrets to particular men. In other words, I believe that they were instructing the line of Cain. We know who is instructing the line of Abel. One, Enoch. Enoch was teaching righteousness.

In the book of Enoch, he's told to teach his offspring the path of righteousness. And this is carried on through Noah. And so you always have this dual. happening where the most important knowledge that mankind can have is being taught by God to mankind. And then you have this other body of knowledge, which is being used to cause men to be insurrectionary against God, to tempt them away from God, to become prideful, to become violent, to become destructive. But to your point, Nate, it's not that the knowledge itself is bad.

It's what was the intent? And then it's like, you know, giving a kid a lighter and setting him loose in a field of dry grass. The application. He's going to light a village on fire. I'm sure. Because of the immaturity. He doesn't understand the power of what he has. And this is what happens in the story of the Watchers in Enoch is mankind becomes corrupted through the knowledge of the watchers.

And what ensues? Bloodshed ensues. violence ensues, warfare ensues. It's precisely what the watchers knew would happen. It was what they intended to happen. Well, did they? Because, you know, there is some implications in the text that they were giving us tools to survive. Like, you need this.

We're trying to help you. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not, it feels as though they feel like we're jipped out of something. These guys should know about these. That's a deception, though. Isn't the deception this gift? That's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that God's holding out on. But they have their own God moment where they have their own free will and they think,

this guy should know this. If he's in the woods, he should have this tool to survive being in the woods. You know what I'm saying? Like they think they're doing the right thing. I think partially. I think they know they're rebelling, but they also have, I think, it feels when you read it, it seems like they think they're helping us. Well, I don't know.

I don't know. It's difficult for me to conceive of that because if I were to travel back in time with the nuclear warhead, and give it to a Bronze Age civilization. Could I have any good intent at all in that? I mean, I know being a person of the 21st century, understanding the incredible power, destructive power of a nuclear warhead,

handing that over to a Bronze Age civilization that I know they're either going to destroy themselves or destroy everybody else and themselves. There's no way I can have any good intention there. I must know that what I'm doing is going to lead to disaster, calamity. So I think the watchers knew that their knowledge would corrupt mankind. And I think that there's that the reason why, because this is the third thing, the third motive that I was talking about earlier, is because they wanted their own offspring to dominate.

They wanted their own offspring, the Nephilim, to dominate the earth. You know, these aren't just big, the giants, the Nephilim aren't just big, dumb, Disney giants walking around with clubs These are extremely intelligent beings You think they knew that was going to happen Yes, I think that they absolutely intended for their offspring Their sons to become To take dominion, to seize dominion of the earth

Do you think that also like when you talk about civilization Do you think that part of this too was the recreation of civilization here And they were like you guys are kind of like my minions If you will so we need to recreate civilization here because you guys are a bunch of knuckle-draggers, and here's how, here's the keys to it. Here's how we do it. Yeah, I think that's part of the equation as well.

So the way that I view the anti-Diluvian world, which I call this the empire of the gods, because you had 200 gods inhabiting the earth with men, and this, of course, was known to all of the ancients. This is in all of their mythologies, all the primary civilizations on earth, believe that there was a time that the Egyptians referred to as Zeptepe,

when the gods dwelt among men. copulated with human women who conceived and gave birth to demigods, in many cases who were giants. And that during this period of time, according to the ancients, this was a time where knowledge flourished. And in the, let's call it the pagan worldview, this was, they view it through a laudatory prism. In other words, this was a time of peace and prosperity. But from the Hebraic point of view, this, it was quite the opposite. This was a time when men became lawless. when there was much bloodshed on the earth, when they were led into idolatry.

And what was the idolatry? They were worshipping the watchers, the living gods who were walking among them. So let's reverse engineer this a little bit more. So that means knowledge and free will exist in heaven. And then knowledge was relegated to a tree on earth, right? And so there was a separation. So that means these beings have this knowledge in heaven as is, right?

Before. and I think that's hard for a lot of people to accept because it's like, wait, I thought knowledge was bad. I would take that further. I would say that the Garden of Eden is an allegory because why do I say it's an allegory? It's got all the elements of an allegory. Let's take the trees, for example.

Here's a good question. Here's a biblical question. It's not, it's not, we can ask a question in two different ways. You can say, what was the tree of knowledge? Or what was the tree of knowledge?

what was the tree of life? You can ask that question, but there's a better one. Who is the tree of knowledge? Who is the tree of life? And we know the answer to the second question because it's explicit in the biblical text. Jesus is the tree of life. Jesus is the tree of life. So who is the tree of knowledge? So it's not about a snake. It's not about a tree. It's not about a piece of fruit. It's not about our ancestors being naked vegetable gardeners. This is an allegory of a very profound historical event in which the progenitors of our race, Adam and Eve, were tempted to join the rebellion. The dragon. To join the dragon. It was a test of loyalty. And so I think that the tree of knowledge represented the dragon and what he was offering, interfacing with

them. You know, I mean... But it was, it was concentrated into a specific place, a thing, right? Like it a location? A location. I believe that Eden... In my, well, yes, that's true, but Eden, Eden is synonymous with Paradise. Is it not? Paradise is synonymous. with heaven. Heaven is synonymous with the father's house. All of these things are synonymous. So Eden, paradise, heaven, the father's house are all synonymous in the Bible. In fact, in the book of Revelation, we read that to those who overcome, Jesus is going to give them to eat from the tree of life, which is where. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way,

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In Eden. Paradise. In his father's house. Both answers were wrong. All right. So what you're right, you were right what you said. But I'm just demonstrating to you that. So do believe Eden was an actual location like that?

the confluence of heaven and earth. There's a place, like it was a place. Because we've had to talk about mountaintops and sort of significance of a cosmic mountain. And I know we're kind of in the weeds here as far as Enoch, but... No, this is great. I think it's not in the weeds. I think it's perfect. I think it's the micro discussions that happen, the Enoch, because people don't want to accept that angels had bad attitudes in heaven. That's not possible for a bad attitude. Smoking Marlboro Reds and driving, you know, driving fast cars. They can't accept that concept. So they can't accept anything in the book of Enoch. Well, let's return to this statement in Revelation that, you know, because the father's house

is synonymous with the paradise of God, okay? And so where is the tree of life right now? Where's it at? Where'd it go? If Eden is on earth, where is the tree of life? And where are those cherubim who are guarding it? It's a portal. Where's it at? Well, you might be onto something there. So, in fact, that's what I suggest in my book. Yeah, yeah. Well, I would say the gate to Eden. There's a gate to Eden. Yeah, yeah. Eden itself is synonymous of the father's house. I mean, and this goes back to the parable of the prodigal son. Where does the parable begin? In the father's house. And there are two

siblings, an older sibling, who I call, who I denominate, the elder race and a younger sibling. Where do they begin? Together in the father's house. So you get to the end of Revelation, oh, you get to the book of Revelation, the end of the Bible, and you discover that, wait a minute, the tree of life is still around, apparently, but it's in the paradise of God, which again is synonymous with the father's house. So, so obviously that tells me two things. It tells me, A, that the Garden of Eden story is an allegory. Now, that's not to say that Adam and Eve were not real people. That's not what I'm saying. It's telling us in very simplistic terms, something very complex, something much grander than the narrative we have is alluding to something much more.

It's alluding to something much grander. This all begins in the Father's House, in the Kingdom of Heaven. That's where everything starts. Even our story starts there. But what we think is possible to go on there, take place in that Father's House, is why I think there's so much controversy with the Book of Inok. if we eat of this and we become like angels, are angels in a fallen state? What are we then?

What were we before? Were we naive? Were we created as a- We weren't naked vegetable gardeners? But were we in a state of naivety? Were we unblemished? Were we pure? And the angels, if they have this knowledge,

then they must be corrupt, right? And so we have these hard theological... There are two, I don't have the receipts in front of me here, but there are two very, yes, there are two very, very interesting verses in the book of Joe. I believe they're both in the book of Job. And again, I don't have it in front of me here. But there's one verse that says something like that God put no trust in his holy ones. He accused his angels of, I can't remember the word, that he...

Sedition. It wasn't sedition, it was he accused his angels of. of something, I can't remember, it's not in front of me. It's in my book, birthright. But the point is that I believe that mankind was created in the wake of a monumental event. Something happened that preceded us. There's a prelude to our story that we are a little aware of. We don't just pop into existence and everything starts with us.

We come along in the timeline, in the course of history, and the timeline of history, and behind us, I think there's eons of untold history, and that history includes a cosmic rebellion. We're talking about kinetic war here. We're talking about one of the most, if not the most powerful princes in the kingdom of heaven. Which is hard for a lot of people because they don't want to believe there's any creation, anything happened before humans. Humans was the beginning. It was all based around us and the earth. Christians don't like to think about.

Just this foundational understanding of what sin is, when it enters. No, these are all very good theological questions, and they all have very standardized traditional answers. And I'm not one for standardized traditional answers. You don't say, Timothy. And I don't, you know, I make logical inferences from what I see, from the stories that are unfolding, from the information. For example, I'll return to this point. The logical inference, if you see that the tree of life, is in the Garden of Eden

in the beginning of the story and then at the end of the story it's in the paradise of God or in the father's house then I simply draw I deduce from this information that we're looking at an allegory the tree of life is a person

it's Jesus and he's the one who gives who gives everlasting life it's a gift everlasting life is a gift that he gives us And the right to eat from the tree is synonymous with the right to go back into the family as a son of God, to go back into the family, back into the divine family through Christ.

That's, that's, you know, the story of the prodigal son, the parable of the prodigal son. Well, let's use that analogy of the father's house. We're all fathers here. We all have children, right? It's mostly under control, but there's this element of chaos. and if it's a micro version of how heaven might operate, that is really hard for people to accept. God has children.

They're not always doing the right thing. Right? And so when you become a father, you realize right away, I love this fallible creature. It's going to do what it's going to do. This kid's going to make me joyful one day, and then he's going to bring me to tears the next thing.

That's the consequence of free will. And there is no reason, no reason to assume, none whatsoever that only we have free will. That's absurd to me. Well, we know. We know it. It's biblical to say no, that angels do have free will. Obviously, they rebel. There's such a thing as quote unquote fallen angels. Yeah, I know, but it's like, so we take, we believe that, but then we reject everything else that comes with that. That's true. All the other implications come with that. That means there has to be some sort of blemish in the kingdom of heaven, some, some. Well, the kingdom of heaven is a much more practical place, I think, than we have countenanced. It's in many ways.

I mean, everything that we do here is modeled on something that preceded us. We did not invent civilization. We inherited it. So if there's eons of time behind us and untold eons of time and history behind us, then what were these beings doing all this time? They weren't service, they weren't serving us, right? Because there's this notion that angels exist, their sole purposes to serve us and to minister to us. I think that's a false, I think that's a misconception. That's one of the things that they do now, some of them, they act as envoys and messengers, and they come and they minister to the sons of men, as we're told in the New Testament. But that's not what they do all the time. This is a civilization, okay? And really, this is the paradigm buster for a lot of people.

the kingdom of heaven is a civilization it's a civilization it's not just some some spiritual place or some supernatural place that's so different from what we do here on earth that we cannot contemplate it no it's quite the opposite actually everything we do on earth this this isn't the first time these things have been done so when we think about a civilization we think about um we think about a kingdom. And this is exactly, this is exactly the terms that Jesus depicts heaven, the kingdom of heaven, in the terms that we can understand. In a practical way, the kingdom of heaven has everything that we have here. It has courts. It has judges. It has a council. It has messengers. It has a standing army. Well, let's go back to the book of Enoch. Clearly it has a place where they know about cosmetics.

They know about making their face look beautiful. They know about the way astrology. They know how to make tools, right? So they don't... They're technologically advanced. They don't just pop into our existence and say, hey, I, like the Matrix, this is all downloaded into my brain. Now I'm going to teach you. It's like, no, they knew it.

That's right. It's like if you pass on... They're a very, very ancient civilization. Yeah, they know these things. And I think we are, it seems as though that human beings are in a state of, we are naive creatures. And they know that we are naive. and they have this dilemma, right? Like, well, obviously we can take them.

We can do what we want with them. But we were created in a state of naivity, it seems. Like, we weren't supposed to have this knowledge. We weren't supposed to know these things. I would say that Adam was much more magnificent than us, both physically speaking and intellectually speaking, that we are shadows of Adam. But not an angel, not, did not have this built-in knowledge.

But even Adam, Even the zenith of mankind, our original progenitor, Adam, the prototypic human being, his genome was perfect, not a single error in his DNA, right? We're talking about the apex of mankind. Even he, according to David, was created to be a little lower than the heavenly beings. Now, just contemplate that for a moment. Contemplate the best physical specimen of a human being. Let's say Arnold Schwarzenegger times 10. And then the smartest human being that's ever lived, let's say Isaac Newton or Einstein, times 10, consolidated in one person. That's the person we're talking about. And that person was created to be a little lower than the heavenly being. So what does that say about the heavenly beings? So the dumbest of the heavenly beings are still smart. So what is that? He's that we're the

dumber, younger brother. Now put Adam in that in the kingdom of heaven. Here's Adam in the kingdom of heaven. He's the new guy, right? He's the new sibling in the family of God. As extraordinary as he is, he's still not as extraordinary as his elder siblings, namely the sons of God, those morning stars who pre-exist him, right? They have knowledge. They have understanding of things that he doesn't because he's the younger sibling. They have a whole history behind them. So there's knowledge that they can give him, but to give him this knowledge could be corrupting to him. So what happens?

This is the Garden of Eden scenario. So you have Eve being tempted by the serp. She's not being tempted by a snake to eat a piece of fruit. Right? Because what is the serpent say to her when, in order to entice her to eat this fruit, if you eat this fruit, what's going to happen to you? You'll die.

Oh no, you'll become like the gods. You will become like the gods. In other words, if you put you, put this in, I think in the proper context, you're looking at Adam and Eve, these extraordinary prototypical human beings who are interfacing with their elder siblings. And one of these elder siblings in particular are saying to them, hey, you know, if God really loved you, he would tell you everything. Or why doesn't he tell you everything? Why does he withhold information from me. Well, what do you mean? Well, there's things that we know. There's things that you don't know about,

and he's not telling you. See, this is called Luciferianism. It's the inversion of the gospel. Luciferians believe that Yahweh or Adonai was a tyrant, and that the Garden of Eden was actually a prison, and that God was withholding knowledge. Yahweh, Adonai, was withholding knowledge from Adam and Eve, and Lucifer was the friend of mankind. He was this benevolent being, the benefactor of mankind who was trying to enlighten us and free us from the shackles of ignorance and from thraldom to Yahweh.

See, this is Luciferianism, right? And that's precisely what was happening in the Garden of Eden. This is what Adam and Eve were being tempted with. This is what they were being told that God is withholding things from you. I will tell you, I will teach you. They don't want you to become like,

and by the way, it's they, it's not God doesn't, it's they, the Elohim, don't want you to become like them. They're withholding things from you, but I will teach you these things. This makes a lot of sense to me in the context of the kingdom of heaven. That's what I was saying, the Genesis 6 feels like the 200 watchers had the same vibe.

Now, I see where you're going with that, but perhaps with the same. same intention. See, because the devil knew, the dragon knew that by enticing Adam and Eve with this knowledge, that they would transgress. They would commit an act of insurrection against God. And what happens, by the way, when they commit this act of insurrection? What happens to them? See, I'm trying to get us to think of these terms. I'm trying to get us to amplify an allegory. That's what I'm trying to get us to do, okay? Most Christians can only think about the snake and the tree and the fruit, right?

But I'm telling you, it's not about a snake and a tree and a fruit and naked vegetable gardens. Well, that's why they reject the Book of Enoch, I think. That's ultimately why a big portion, they just can't, that's all they can accept in terms of what's wrong here and why we are separated from God. It's just that one story is, everything kind of revolves around that one point, that one thing. And I get it. You're right. You're absolutely right when you say that they can't handle the theological, or they're unwilling to contend with the theological implications of Genesis 6 as amplified

in the Anacian tale. And if you do, it forces you, forces you to rearrange the theological furniture in your head. And that means you have to get uncomfortable for a little while. Because it injects a bit of chaos. you think you know something, and then when you realize that you don't actually know this like you thought, it creates a little panic until the pieces get put back together in a different order. And that's the emotions that people go through when confronted with this kind of information. And it's precisely what happens for a lot of Christians, when they pick up the book of Enoch,

and they read the book of Enoch, and they're confronted with angels, are lusting? Wait a minute, wait, they're not just lusting. they're having sex with human women. These women are conceiving and giving birth to these hybrid entities. That does not comfortably fit into the conventional Western Christian paradigm. It doesn't. And that's why so many people are so intrigued today with the Book of Enoch. Not when I was a teenager with, you know...

In the jungle with leather-bound copies trapped around, yeah. That's pretty, that's actually true. not when I was a teenager in Borders bookstore sitting there reading the book of Enoch and then I took it home with me. I bought it. Okay, you bought it. That's good.

And I must have been 16 because I drove myself there. I went home with this big, it wasn't just the Book of Enoch. It was like the Apocrypha. And it was one of these big, old-looking books that I got from Boehors. I brought it home and I walk in the door with it. And my dad says to me, my dad was the pastor of our church.

Sure. And I had a phenomenal father. by the way. And my dad was a pastor of our church. And he looked at me and he said, what's that? I said, it's like you brought in. It's the apocrypha. Why'd you buy that? I said, I was, I'm interested in the book of Enoch. And my dad said to me, well, his first question after that was, why? And I said, well, because I noticed that it's quoted and Jude quotes it. I just interested in the story. And then what he said to me was, that's dangerous. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

That's dangerous. You need to be careful. That's really dangerous. Tim, that's that, you shouldn't be messing with that. Almost as if it was like the, you know, it was like the one ring

and the Lord of the Rings, you know? Or the anarchist cookbook. You're like, Tim's started building bombs or something in the basement. But for me, it was just, and I don't know why I'm going through this little anecdote here,

but for me it was, it was, I knew, that there is a depth here. When you read the, when you read the scriptures, it's deeper. The pool's deeper than six feet. It goes really deep.

And I wanted to plumb the depths. Yeah. And we don't remind folks, too, that when we're talking, this conversation is about the Book of the Watchers, right? There's multiple parts of what we consider to be First Enoch in our book,

but particularly the part that you wrote commentary on that we're discussing is the macro narrative of Genesis 6, which is found in the Book of the Watchers. So that's what we're primarily... That is the anchor of the biblical verse. Right. That's the part that's quoted in.

And then we're trying to give that context. In Jude, that's the part that's referenced in First Peter is from the book of the Watchers. So just to be specific, yes. That's right. That's a good delineation. For example, none of the stuff about DeGarden and Eden or any of that is in the introduction to Enoch. But we're just riffing.

We're doing some theological riffing here off of the... Off of the concept of the elements that, as you say, that your dad at the point and this sentiment is dangerous is really just the filling in of the story, right? It feels like Tolkien. It's like all of a sudden we're open up, we open up Middle Earth. And you go, there's a lot of things going on here that kind of make this story makes sense. Like we get, you know, you made the one ring reference. Like if you don't understand what the ring is and where it was created and what the significance of it is, Or the war before the rain.

Then the idea that Frodo's got to return it to, you know, the fires of Mount Doom doesn't really make all the sense. That's a good analogy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd also think that, you know, when we're talking about these beings, we're talking about, you know, Genesis 3, the original temptation. It's the chief being, created being, right? The chief, created being comes in and tempt us. And then you have maybe this sentiment that lingers for a while, right?

And if we think about that, then the watchers are like, we can do this too. Right. So they watched that Genesis 3 event happen. They must have. They must have known. And that was like a single event. And then they created kind of a bigger version of that event. Same thing.

Right? Like, oh, you can become like the gods. Here's, here's all the knowledge. Here's what you can do. And not only can you become like the gods, but we are the gods. And that's, that's, I mean, I mean, imagine living in the anti-deluvian world, and suddenly these, for lack of a better term, extraterrestrial beings, sure, come into your midst.

They have all this knowledge. Obviously, you would contemplate these beings as the gods. These are the gods. They've descended from heaven. They're bringing gifts with them. What do they want? What do they want? They want to wed our daughters.

I mean, could you imagine being a father of one of those daughters? You hope that your daughter marries like a chief dinner or something. And here's a God. And by the way, I don't believe that the watchers were ugly. I don't believe the watchers were grotesque and reptilian. I think they look like the angels in the biblical narrative. So in other words, they look like us, but a lot better. Looks strikingly magnificent.

That's the right word. Strikingly handsome, right? They would have been very beautiful beings. They would have looked like us, probably taller than us. And you can imagine as being a father of a maiden and one of these gods approaches you wants to marry. your daughter. See, there's this notion that it's a prevailing notion and I, I, I, I, um, me and uh, Joel had a little scuffle about this in, uh, in Costa Rica. Um, I think Joel believes that

the watchers raped the women, took them by force and rape them. I don't see that in the narrative. I see them, they desire to, yes, they desire to copulate with these women, but they want them as wives. Not as prostitutes or concubines. They want wives. They're looking for wives. And they only take one. Each of them only takes one. Okay. So if the watchers are looking to come down and wantonly rape human women, why would they take a singular wife to wed? Why? Because it's family. It's family. It's contractual. See, that's the key here. They're looking to marry these women, according to the customs of men, which is what they did in the bond of matrimony. It's a contract.

It's a legal contract between them and not the women. Back then, women didn't decide who they were going to marry. The fathers decided. It was a patriarchal society. So the watchers would have gone to the fathers and asked for their daughter's hands in marriage. And by the way, back then, what did you have to give a father? A dowry.

A dowry. So what was the dowry of the watchers? Knowledge. The knowledge. They are simply fulfilling... Hoverboards. Come on now. Let's get real into it.

They wouldn't goats and chickens this time around. That's right. Here's a hoverboard and I want your daughter. No, but I think you're right. I think some of it could have been both. I think it could have been both. I think majority of it was probably... But why?

Defend that thought. Well, once they have access, then they can do what they want. But they didn't. They took one wife. Each of them chose one. That's very specific in the book of Enoch. Each of them chose one.

And then what they do? They married these women. And they didn't marry you secret. Believe me. Was there like a, was there some sort of unwritten rule they couldn't? You think? Like if they did?

They're not legally allowed to do whatever? Well, they're looking for, they want to do this legally within the covenant of marriage. They are skirting the law here. Sure. They are trying to do something that enables them, at least in their mind, to avoid the wrath that is coming. And so they're trying to walk this fine line. So if human beings are given, and we are, we're bequeathed dominion of the earth right in the beginning. And by the way, Paul says that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

irrevocable. So God gives dominion of man, and he never takes it away, by the way, ever, even in Revelation, who governs the earth at the end? A man. One, Jesus Christ, a man. So the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. God bequeaths dominion of the earth to mankind. You can think of that as the deed of the earth being given to Adam and his offspring forever. And so the watchers, we govern this place. We govern the earth. Fallen angels don't govern planet earth. We govern planet earth.

Mankind, good, bad, or indifferent. We govern the earth. And so if their plan is to, A, take these women as wives, B, procreate with them, progenerate a race of hybrid offspring, then it follows that C, and I again, I elaborate on this in my book, C, their aim, their goal is dominion of the earth. To usurp dominion of the earth from the sons of Adam through their hybrid offspring who are human enough to inherit it.

I wonder if that became the goal after the fact. Oh no, I think that was the goal right from the beginning. Well, it's interesting because I think when you describe this story to me and you describe this, you know, this idea of the book of Watchers, the hardest part for Christians is that that heaven is like Earth. And I think we want to separate and divorce these two and say, no, Earth is a completely different messed up thing. And heaven is nothing like Earth. And when you start reading the book of Enoch, you're like, wait a minute. These things are way closer together than we want to admit. And I think a lot of Christians can't put them even in the same room, let alone this one influences this one, and this one's kind of like this one.

It's because of what I call a supernatural, well, not what I call, but what is called a supernatural worldview. And that supernatural worldview, it spiritualizes everything. Yeah. And so everything to do with God and angels and the kingdom of heaven is spiritual, then you have a disconnect. In the book of the Watchers, the book of Enoch shatters that paradigm. Exactly. If you take it seriously, and I do take the first two sections of Enoch seriously, I take the book of the watchers seriously, and I take the parable seriously.

By the way, those are the two, the earliest portions of Enoch that are confirmed to have been written long before the birth of Christ, right? The other content in Enoch, you know, the Book of the Heavenly Luminaries, the dream visions, and all the rest of the content in First Enoch. was written after Christ and is heavily influenced by chariot mysticism, I don't take that at the same value as the earlier portions. Yeah, we've talked about that a lot. Well, what I'm saying is that, so I read this narrative as a true narrative,

and if you take it as a true narrative, then you have to accept certain propositions. You have to accept that these beings called watchers have the biological capacity, as we were saying earlier, to copulate with human women and procreate with the human species. That's a given from the story. And again, you can't wiggle out of that by saying, well, they took on flesh, no, they lusted first.

In heaven, lusted. So what you're saying is absolutely true. Because I think a lot of people read Enoch, and they read a lot of other things in the Bible, and it doesn't penetrate their brain, doesn't penetrate. Because if it does, it should be like... Shake it up. Well, it should be like someone, you know, what do you call it when you when you break the rack in billiards and pull?

It should be like that cue ball busting apart those those that finally organized. It's when the drum set gets into the Baptist church. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, what are we doing here? It injects a little chaos. It breaks apart this very organized thing that you had in your head all your life. If you grew up in the church like I did, it's just this nice, tidy, organized.

thing that all the theologians and the scholars support and everybody, and then suddenly when it gets busted up, it's chaotic for a minute. And what happens, I think if you think these things through properly, what happens is exactly what you're saying. Your perception, this thing that you just kind of pushed off as supernatural and spiritual suddenly becomes very pragmatic and physical and real. And to me, what that does is it excites me. To a lot of other people just confuses them and it makes them feel nervous. Is that why you think people consider or label this dangerous like your father did?

Yes. Well, and I think, you know, my dad had a legitimate concern, too. He didn't understand the apocryphor, the book of Enoch or anything like that. This is way before it was trendy to talk about the book of Enoch. Today it's trendy to talk about the book of Enoch and to read the book of Enoch. And a lot of believers understand the

they've heard about the watchers and the Nephilim. For the last decade, Nephilim has been one of the top search queries in Google. One of the top search queries in Google has been Nephilim. So there's a lot of interest around it now. But back then, you know, when this kind of stuff was still in my life, back then walking in the door in a traditional Protestant, charismatic, non-deny, denominational church or household, walking in the door with this apocrypha with the intention of reading the book of Enoch, was viewed as dangerous and edgy and all of that. But today it's not.

But yeah, I mean... I think there's more paradigm busters. There's more videos of things circulating. People see creatures that don't exist, supposedly. People see UFO. People see... You know what I'm saying? It's like there's more and more evidence to suggest that, you know, you know, Yeah, like it is physical. There is physical phenomena happening. They're building something. I saw this thing that I can't explain.

And I think that before that information didn't travel from person to person as much and you couldn't make sense of it. So you just wrote it off in your mind. The ideas were not being widely disseminated as they are today. There wasn't any evidence. Like say you saw Bigfoot in 1850. You go back home, you tell your friends. Okay.

Like ape canyon. Yeah. Didn't happen. Then in the 60s, we film one, supposedly, and I believe it's a real footage. And now of a sudden it's like, wait a minute, we've been hearing stories about this thing for hundreds of years. And so I think that's what the Book of Enoch does, is it actually forces you to put... It's a paradigm buster. Like this either happened or didn't happen. It's a paradigm busting bomb. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what it is.

It's a PBB. It's a Moab. But I don't know if a Zazel, I guess what I'm saying, people like that, and it specifically called out are fully aware that they're doing something wrong. I think they might think they're doing something right. That's like an oath of mutual. They know that they're breaking the law, but they, I think they are morally feel like they're doing the right thing. If you start off, if your first act in this entire saga is open insurrection, then your intentions cannot be good.

I'm saying that... Ultimately, maybe in their own minds and hearts, you can be right. Maybe they thought that they were going to, and I would agree with you here, maybe they thought that they were going to lead humanity into a legitimate golden age. Well. That God was not... God was withholding stuff from mankind that, look, they're rubbing sticks together to get fire. You know, we can go give them a zippo.

I mean, you know, maybe that was part of the desire. And dare I say, maybe even in the Garden of Eden with the dragon. I mean, it's not hard to conceive of a situation. Even a guy like Adolf Hitler had good intentions for his own people, even though what he did was horrendous and heinous. you know, so I'll grant that. Well, it's like disgruntled employees in heaven. You know what I'm saying?

Like, that's kind of what we're saying here is that these guys were sitting around going, man, I kind of want, I don't want to be on the clock anymore. I won't go down there. I want to hang out with them. And that is hard for a lot of Christians to suggest. They were literally saying that because they're looking at these men with these wives and they were envious of their wives. Exactly.

And so I think that's hard for Christians to accept that, like, wait, these beings in heaven are feeling a little frustrated, they're feeling like they don't want to be there. Why would, that's impossible. By the way, that's why you get to the New Testament. Paul tells women to cover their head when they pray. Well, sure. Yeah. That's the context. Yeah. Because they understood that angels can be tempted and can be envious and can be lustful. So what I'm trying to say is that conceptualization. And that's hard for Christians because we have such a precisely, but it wasn't hard for the ancient Hebrews. It wasn't hard for the Jews. They, both in the ancient context and in the first century,

it was not hard for them to contemplate that angels lusting or angels being envious that was part of their worldview. Well, every child hates their parents, right? Every child goes through that age where they hate their parents and people can't conceptually think that sons of God are frustrated,

don't like their dad, don't like their family, don't like their father. But that seems to be suggested in this book. Well, what happens in that scenario is catastrophic insurrection. Yeah. I mean, that's precisely what I think happened before we show up. Okay, let's follow this line of thinking here.

So let's say that that happens, right? You have, well, first, let's preface this with catastrophic insurrection. First, you have the dragon and the other princes who rebel against God in a preademic context. And there's this massive war that breaks out. And then fast forward, the earth, in my estimation, is renewed. This realm, the terrestrial realm. God's going to renew it. And instead of appointing one of these high-born princes who are already in existence

to govern this realm, instead, he creates a new kind of being a younger sibling in the family and gives him dominion of that realm. That might cause some envy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That might cause a man. But that's hard. That's hard for a Christian because we come to the table and we know exactly how heaven works. And we know exactly how the kingdom of heaven operates. Somehow, we've, we've concocted this whole idea. It's the spiritual realm. Yeah. Instead of letting the

scripture and the stories dictate that. But see what I just said, it's the spiritual realm or it's the supernatural realm. What that does for people is that it gives them an answer that they can just take this thing and file it away on the shelf. They don't, it's not, their face. It's not raw. It's not... It's comfortable. They don't have to deal with the discomfort of the data. And that's... And by the way, there's a lot of different views on Genesis and obviously dozens and dozens of different views and in Judaism. For example, you take Michael Heiser's view. He believes that the original rebellion, even with the dragon, started in Eden. I don't because the story doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense if that's

the case. I don't. My view is that, as I said earlier, we come into the picture. There's something I write in my book, and let's see if I can get it right here. We were born into the world, not with it. So there's already this martial conflict, this political environment that's extant when we are brought into existence. It doesn't all begin with us. It doesn't all begin. And I say this often. When you open up the beginning, when you open up the first chapter of the Bible,

you have the book of Genesis, and people assume they're opening up the first chapter on the universe. And that human beings begin on page one of chapter one or whatever it is. So we're in the beginning of the story of everything. I think that's a misconception. I don't even believe that the Jews thought of it that way. In fact, I know that for certain that there's a lot of Second Temple thought and a variety of thoughts within Judaism that would not hold to that view, less so

in Protestantism and Catholicism and in Christianity in general. But the reality is that when you open up Genesis, we're not being told what happened before our chapter starts. And our chapter is not chapter one. Our chapter is chapter whatever in the story. And so if you have all of this other stuff occurring behind us. And you can accept that. Everything kind of makes sense at that point. Because remember what Jesus says about the kingdom of heaven. He said that the kingdom of heaven suffers violence.

And the violent take it by force. That sounds like insurrection to me. Sure. That sounds like incursions into the kingdom. And then the armies of the kingdom are pushing out the invaders. It sounds like warfare to me. And so I think when you, when you, When you approach the Bible from that sort of a pragmatic worldview, the story of the watchers in the

Book of Enoch fits right into that. There's no conflict here. There's no contention. Well, let's go back to the book of Enoch and like continue the story. And I think sometimes people have a view of heaven like a hospital. Like it's this purely sanitized place that just, just like mechanical. It just goes. There's nothing. There's no, like you said, there's no creativity. But so these these beings are, they obviously commit this horrible act. There's this fallout with these children. And then there's this deferred judgment, which even suggests so that they're bound

and they're put into the earth or whatever. But God doesn't just wipe him out right then. So God has this sense of patience. That's right. He's long-suffering. What does that mean? How can God have patience? He waited patiently in the days of Noah.

But how is that even possible? See, you know what I'm saying? It's like, we have to inject just God has patience into this story. I would submit to you because the watchers were walking a very fine line. They had made a transaction with the legal. He loves his children. With the legal regents of planet Earth. That's true.

But the watchers, they made a transaction with the regents of planet Earth. And it's kind of like you reap what you sew. And if you read the book of Enoch, when does God intervene? God intervenes precisely when men began to call out. to call on him to petition. So there's an act of petition that happens. In fact, in the book of Enoch, the angels hear the petition. They carry the petition to God in the book of Enoch.

They hear the children of men. They see the suffering. And men are petitioning the courts of heaven. Redress for the action of the watchers and their offspring. Because remember, the giants, when they grow, they are consuming all of the acquisitions of the land. In other words, it takes a tremendous amount of effort to feed them. And when men could no longer sustain these enormous appetites, the giants began to devour men. So in the beginning, it might have all been great and wonderful in technology

and knowledge and the gods are with us in celebrations. And it slowly descended into chaos and havoc and bloodshed and giants devouring people. So it wasn't like immediately the evil effects were felt. It had to mature so that that transgression of the watchers, it didn't immediately produce all of the negative things that we see at the end of both this story and in the biblical narrative. Rather, this occurred over a long period of time. I mean, if you take the Septuagint rendering of the genealogy of Genesis 5,

which lists the genealogy from Adam to Noah before the flood and Noah's sons, if you take the Septuagint rendering, you and you add, you calculate that the time between Jared, the watchers descended in the days of Jared to the flood, you get something like 1,200, more than 1,200 years. Think about that. It's a long time. And I think it was a lot more than that. by the way, because I don't take the Genesis 5 genealogy as a linear progression, hereditary progression. That's a different conversation.

But at minimum, from the Septuagint surrendering, you get over a thousand years. So just imagine that. A thousand years from the advent of the watchers descending to the earth and the flood of Noah. With advanced knowledge in the earth and the offspring of the giants, and more offspring being produced through the watcher's wives, and maybe the watcher's wives die, and they take another wife, who knows? But the point is, you have a thousand years for the Nephilim to propagate in the earth and for all of that iniquity of the watchers to maturate.

And God is just waiting. Yeah. The whole time, he's waiting patiently. He's long-suffering. He's waiting in the days before the flood, and he's waiting for men to petition heaven. Why would he do that? Because we are the regents of planet Earth.

We're the governors. He gave us dominion of the earth. Maybe, maybe, Tim, it's this element of random that people don't want to accept. It's like in this creation, in this plan, in the law, there is an element of random. It's like programmed into you and me. And even these other beings, well, they're going to do whatever they want to do. And they're able to. Well, that's certainly part of the equation.

we do whatever we want to do. Yeah, exactly. And that is hard because we have this idea. Nothing random happens in heaven. That would be an element of volition, a free will. And certainly the Watchers had. They were entities operating under their own volition, and they determined to do a thing.

They came down. They did it legally enough so that the response would not be immediate. because we authorized them to do it. We gave our women to them in the covenant of marriage and received in exchange what we wanted. What we wanted. That's a legal transaction. That's a legal transaction.

Yeah, so we both kind of want what the other one has and we're both sort of don't have. It's a Faustian bargain. Okay, so let's keep going with the story and then we can wrap it up. It's that, you know, there's this initial judgment after a thousand years, finally like we're going to wipe out, we're going to wipe these things off the earth. Human beings have become corrupt,

largely in part. Now there's giants. There's all this, you know, all this knowledge has increased and it's gotten to a place that's way beyond Vegas in terms of its sin and depravity. And then there's a final judgment coming to. So we're somewhere and three quarters into this story, right, where we are today. And then there's this final judgment coming for these 200 beings. For everybody. And everybody else. but that's a long time. We're talking, you know, this, we've been able to sort of continue this story here.

And then what is the new earth? Is that element of random still available even then? When we put the thing back together? What is the new earth? That's a loaded question right there. No, we are. We're coming to the end of the age, and that's why I like to say that what began on Hermon ends at Armageddon.

and you know this is the moment in time at the end of the age when christ returns to the earth that he returns to be the king in the line of adam he's a human king and he governs the earth and he does it right so there will be a period of time where the earth is governed the way it was supposed to be governed from the beginning and it will be governed by an offspring of Adam, namely Jesus of Nazareth. That's the crescendo of all this. But at the end of the age, I think what we're headed for is a new golden age, a golden age 2.0, if you will, Genesis 6, 2.0 scenario in which now, do I believe that giants will be roaming the earth and devouring people? I don't know. I don't necessarily believe that. But I do believe that the earth is going to be

governed by hybrids again, just as it was, the offspring of the world. watchers in the anti-deluvian world, the Nephilim. I believe they governed the earth. And the watchers, by the way, were exercising what I described in my book, birthright, as rule by proxy. It was proximal authority through the agency of their hybrid sons because their watchers are not human. They have no right to the earth, but their hybrid sons do, because they're human enough to appropriate the dominion of the earth through the bloodline of atoms. So at the end of the age, we're going to be in a scenario where I believe that the governors of the earth are going to be hybrids again. And when I say hybrids, I mean the offspring of the gods and men, of some angelic

faction and human beings. Specifically, the dragon and his angels are going to, are going to copulate with human women and produce hybrid office. At the very end, when he knows his time is short and he plays that final card. Because that card will reap swift judgment. And it does. This is why this person we call the Antichrist is permitted to govern for a while.

Because he's human enough to appropriate to operate as a legal governor on earth. This all gets very complicated. But the point is, is I believe we're heading into a new golden age. I think that's what the mystery school adepts are working toward and have been forever, well, since the initiation of the mystery schools. And in that period of time, I think that there's scarcely going to be a human being left on

planet Earth. Humanity will have directed their own, the trajectory of their own evolution and become post-human through the agency of the technologies we're developing right now. It's kind of a different story. The point is we are headed for a Genesis 6, 2.0, to some extent, at the end of the age. And by the way, we are at the end of the age, specifically the age of Pisces, which is the age of Christ. Yeah, it's so many difficult topics in trying to put, I think we were afraid to put any kind of human character trait, you know, beyond our realm into somewhere else because the implications of that. And I think, you know, Tim, it's always great to have these conversations with you

and specifically talk about sort of what the book of Enoch means. Well, that's kind of what we did because we went far afield from the actual content of Enoch, but we did get into, I think some of the logical implications of the story. Which our first episode launched us into that controversy, all the comments and there was a Oh, there will be more controversy after this one, I can guarantee you. But there's a lot of videos that surfaced and kind of people saying, oh, yeah, you know, You know, the book of Enoch is radical. It's dangerous.

Like, you know, like your dad said. And I think a lot of people feel that way about a lot of these topics we talk about on our podcast. But I think that those, I don't think that the ancients are afraid of information. The more information, the better. It's like, that's why we didn't edit out the second 30 knock on the book. Like, read it. Well, there was this one guy named Solomon.

Yeah. Who's the wisest man who ever lived. Yeah, information and knowledge are not in themselves corrupting. It's the human heart that's corrupting. Yeah, I mean, it's like the old school, like, no, we know what the truth is, and you guys out there don't get access to the Bible. Because that would be too crazy for just common people reading the scriptures, right? We can't have that. So the church was a gatekeeper for a long time.

And then we felt like, no, everyone should have a Bible and figure it out for themselves. That's the best thing for... That was the Protestant Reformation. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that in some ways, you know, people are afraid of context. They're afraid of information. And you can get this book right now. Where can we get it, Tim?

And what are the other parts of the book that we can get? Throw a plug out there. I believe we can get this book at blurry creatures.com. And signed copies. Sign copies. That's right. We are going to wear our hands out later, signing a whole lot of copies of this book. Yeah, but what I like about our copy or our audition with bias, of course, is that we talked

a lot about the book of the Watchers, right? The first portion of this is really applicable. to Genesis 6 and what's referenced in the New Testament by the author of Jude and by 1st Peter. But there's also commentary there. So a lot of the ideas that we espoused today and expanded upon today and addressed today within this book are a lot of those thoughts. And Tim, that you have about these things are also written along with the connections to the scriptures. So you can get a lot of this as you read with a commentary on the book of the watcher. and, you know, blurricatures.com, also Amazon.

You can find it on Amazon. We have our audio version out, which, by the way, is read by the very talented John Moore, who's a professional voice actor. You're not going to hear better. We have the best, I think we can say this confidently. We have the best audio version of the book of Enoch anywhere. Yeah. It's just, John did a phenomenal job, John Moore.

It's just like butter in your ears listening to that. So you don't want to read. You can listen to it. You can listen to the dulcet tones of John Moore. That's right. Or if you want to read it digitally, of course, you can get the Kindle, the e-book version, also on Amazon. And it's an important conversation, right? I think the first episode we talked a lot about some of the initial pushbacks, too.

We did the macro narrative, but also like, it's not canon. It's not the things that people have these initial dangerous monikers with, right? And then also a lot of that's addressed in your introduction. In the introduction, that's what I was going to see. Where do the book of Enoch come from? That's right. You know, why do we think we can trust it? What are the early church fathers think about?

100%. By the way, the introduction is about those things. It's not about Eden and all the other things we were riffing on today. It's about the book of Enoch. I wrote the introduction. And it is, you are going to discover why it was rejected, what happened to it, where it was discovered. There's a very interesting story

right at the beginning that most people don't know about the man who discovered it. He happened to be a Freemason of the Scottish Right. And he was in Ethiopia when he discovered it and he might have been looking

for the Ark of the Covenant. So there's a very interesting story at the beginning. And I walk through the dating of First, Enoch, the difference between first, second, third. This contains all three, by the way. Our book contains all three

for those who are interested to read second and third Enoch. So it's a very scholarly approach. in both the introduction and the commentary. So people who are interested in just, like you were saying, you just want to know what the Book of Inak is, where it came from all of that. It's here.

It's in this book, too. I'd like to remind people, too, that the oldest copies that we have of the books of the Bible, far and away come from Qumran and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Fragments of the book of the Aramaic. So of the Bible. The oldest copy of Isaiah.

That's right. there's fragments of numbers found from 650 BC, but these are predate Christ and the second most copied scroll by the Ascines. And it found in Qumran is the book of Enoch. So everyone who likes to dismiss Enoch as a modern phenomena or as something that is post-Christ or lifted from the New Testament, that really blew that narrative up. So not only is there provenance back to BC times before Christ, but it also, at least to these scenes, was so of such paramount importance that it was one of the most copied read books by that sect of Judaism then.

And also what I think will surprise a lot of people is the remarkable creastological content in First Enoch, specifically in the book of parables, which is one of those older sections that I was referring to before. before. A lot of people aren't aware of this. We documented in the book, you will see how profound prophecies pertaining specifically to the son of man, i.e. Jesus of Nazareth, are in the book of Enoch. And by the way, in Revelation, what does the angel tell John? That the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So if you have a document written long before the birth of Christ, testifying of Christ with the same degree of accuracy of those verses from Isaiah and elsewhere in the Old Testament that describe the death of Christ. The same kind of accuracy is in the parables of Enoch, testifying of Jesus of Nazareth.

This is one of the primary reasons why the Jews rejected it, why didn't get into the canon of the Jews. And this is one of the primary reasons why many of the church fathers defended it, including Tertullian. I love it. Well, thanks, Tim. I think one of the best ways to interpret the story, and especially when we're reading the macro narrative is in familiar terms, you know, that there's a family involved. It's always about this idea of the family and the son of God being, you know, having a relationship with his father. And I think that, you know, was something that the watchers wanted and they lusted after. And it's this whole narrative of family that I think is lost in the church sometimes. Because like you said, we can, we can, we can. conceptualize these things as far away. They're not here. It's not, it's not, there's no, you know, connection between heaven and earth, but there is, you know, there's a, there's a great connection. I think that's what Eden was. And I, I appreciate these conversations. I think it's been a huge part of our podcast from, from the, from the get-go. I think we had you on episode 19 from the beginning, and here we are almost 300 episodes in. So thank you so much for coming on

our podcast, coming into the basement, the blurry basement, hanging out with us, getting a little nostalgia, but also, you know, breathing another round of interest into this ancient story that we're all a part of. And the weird blurry things that people still experience at this day, whether it's abductions, UFOs, Bigfoot, all this stuff that it's on the fringe that we talk about here. So thanks, Tim. And thank you, gentlemen. We'll see in Costa Rica. We have a few more tickets available. That's right. Yes. If you want to join us in Costa Rica. And this is like Costa Rica what's happening here. Yeah.

Except it was up of Hawaiian shirts and they are just as hot in here, too. Yeah, I think we have about seven or eight tickets left. So if you want to join us in Costa Rica, go to blurrycreatures.com. Main page, just hit the link. There's a, there's a banner there. There's a few tickets left. You can come hang out with us. We're going to be doing a lot of these discussions on the beach.

We're going to be having more time to hang out. Kind of like a blurry vacation, if you will. And thanks, Tim. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming in. Of course.