Blurry Creatures - EP: 300 THE SHROUD OF TURIN with Russ Breault

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

For centuries, the Shroud of Turin has mystified scientists, theologians, and skeptics alike. Is it the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, or an elaborate medieval hoax? Enter Russ Breault—a leading expert who has spent decades researching this relic. Tune in as we explore the forensic evidence, biblical connections, and cutting-edge research that may finally reveal the truth behind one of history’s most controversial artifacts. Get our Book of Enoch audio: https://amzn.to/4aftwuc Get our Book of Enoch! https://amzn.to/4gpV4yZ Video Episodes Drop Every Tuesday! Website: blurrycreatures.com Blurry Creatures Socials https://www.tiktok.com/@blurrycreatures https://www.instagram.com/blurrycreatures https://www.facebook.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.twitter.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.youtube.com/@blurrycreatures Special Thanks for Platinum Members! Mitchell Moody Scott Cragg Joshua Drummond Maureen Munoz Amber Freeman Nicolle Benz Zach Mills Adam Dougherty Desiree Nichols Kate Logan Kimberly Lee Fayola Shakes Suzanna Wenzel Kent Denmark Michelle Watkins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they got, What's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. This is the most analyzed artifact in the world. It's been subjected to thousands of hours of scientific analysis. There's no trace of any kind of paint, ink, dye, pigment, stain. There's no artistic substances on the cloth to account for the image. The image is visible because something has caused the accelerated dehydration and oxidation of the cellulose fibers, composing the flax, but only in those areas immediately surrounding a body. So on either side of the crucifixion, you have this Jesus appearing as a being of light. So just do a straight Bible study, what would we assume would have happened to the body of Jesus, the very split second, his soul,

came zooming back into that lifeless body? I think you'd have to assume that there was an explosion of light and then gone. I mean, that's what I believe. I mean, Peter and John ran to the tomb and they didn't find a body. All they found was an empty burrow shroud. So here we have this incredible artifact that remains this profound mystery that goes to the very bullseye of the Christian faith. And if it's authentic, which I certainly think it is,

then it's the very cloth that led John to believe and become the first of the apostles to believe in the resurrection, The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. Joy to join. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it's right to bust the paradigm.

It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant. with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to Blurry Creatures. This is going to be a visual episode for you guys out there.

We have a new studio. And for those of you guys that don't know, they're listening in the radio show version of Blurry Creatures. We are now in the basement, and we've got full video episodes available on YouTube. And we're bringing on Russ Brayalt, who is an expert on the Shroud of Turin. This is like one of those topics

that has been around since the 80s, Luke, the greatest decade of all time. Right, I mean, Russ calls this like the greatest unsolved mystery, maybe of all time. And he's voted his life since the late 70s to working on researching, talking about, writing about the Shrout of Turin.

And this is really, you're like, what is this about? This is very blurry. We're talking about the alleged burial cloth of Christ and blurry blankets you could call it yeah this is a it's a blurry blanket indeed but this is fascinating right we're going to jump into the science the history behind this incredible shroud that a lot of people believe was the the burial cloth of Christ and he was resurrected yeah there's like a 3D image on this thing it's it's it's wow it's you know on the surface

it just looks like whatever, a forgery. But when you dig into the science of it, it's really amazing. And so we're going to hop into this episode. We're going to talk to Russ about it in depth and ask them as many questions. And this is a new topic for us. I didn't know a lot about this subject myself. But if you want to become a member, Blurricutures.com slash members. We just joined with Supercast and we have a bunch of awesome back-in stuff for you guys.

Ad-free experiences, tickets early, discounts on merch, and AMAs. so we just did one and you can ask us questions and you can watch those videos and those will get upvoted reddit style and then you know we will spend some time here answering those questions and putting them on our back end so support us blurrycreatures.com slash members see you in the back end and let's get uh russell on this one is there anybody who knows more than you rusks because we we feel like you've been doing this a long time welcome to the podcast thanks for coming on blurry creatures Well, thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. And there are various experts around the world that probably can go deeper into very specific topics, you know, getting deep into the physics or the chemistry or even some of the historical trail. But as far as general knowledge is concerned, I would be, you know, I'm up there. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean, you do something long enough, you ought to get good at it.

Yeah, exactly. And we talk about all the weird stuff on our podcast from, you know, more in the paranormal space, talking about Bigfoot, aliens, UFOs. And we all try to, we filter all these things to a biblical perspective. But this is one of those like relic things that is, we've touched a little bit about it, Luke, but we haven't talked a lot about relics in general. And we were joking pre-roll, which I love. And you're like, some people fish, people golf, I shroud. Yeah. And so I am more than excited to jump into this because this has been in the news lately, too. And so I am more than excited to jump into this. This has been in the news lately, too. One of the reasons that I reached out and we reached out to you was, in the last year or so, it even seems, there's been a ton of news about the authenticity and the testing and all things that are going on around the shroud. And as Christians, it's fascinating

because it's purported to be the burial shroud of Christ. And I'm gonna stop there because I want you to really take us, take us there and take our listeners to, you know, to, to the beginning. Shroutown. To Shroutown. It's always a good place to start. That's right.

The beginning. That's like Princess Bride, right? Go back to the beginning. This is where I met Vecini, so this is the beginning. Well, you know, when you look at John's Gospel, John chapter 20 versus 1 through 9, you have Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, the three women are making their way to the tomb early. The sun hasn't even come up yet. And they see the stone is already rolled aside from the entrance. And Mary peeks in there and sees that the body's gone, runs to

find the apostles and says, quote, someone has taken our Lord's body out of the tomb, and I don't know where they've put him. So Peter and John run down to the tomb. John makes a point of letting everyone know that he got there first. Then Peter, he finally gets there. Peter goes straight inside that tomb and sees the linen cloth lying there. And then John goes in. He also notices the cloth lying there and believes. Believes what?

Well, believes in the resurrection, because that was the rumor that Jesus himself started that he would be crucified and he would rise again. on the third day. That's why they had a whole band of Roman soldiers out there to guard the tomb to make sure someone didn't slip in, steal the body, and claim some kind of resurrection. And so when John saw that linen cloth lying there, he believed. So it begs the question then, what did John see that Mary didn't see? So Mary peaks in, sees that the body's gone. But she doesn't go inside that tomb. Peter and John to go inside the tomb, see the linen cloth lying there and believe.

So obviously, the difference has something specifically to do with the linen cloth itself. And so now the question is, what did they see? Now, I think there's a couple theories on that. But maybe John went into the tomb and in the back of the tomb, this cloth was laid out on that stone slab exactly the way it was it was put there on good Friday. Nothing moved, nothing disturbed, except the cloth is just collapsed on itself, as if the body just poof, gone. That might make you believe something had occurred. Now, had the body been stolen, what would you have seen?

You might have seen that cloth balled up and thrown under a corner. Or more likely than not, why would anyone unwrapping a corpse. I mean, just take the whole thing and run. And so when Peter and John got to the tomb, they would have seen nothing. So begs the question, what did they see? Now, the scriptures tell us a lot, but they don't tell us everything. And one thing that's not in scripture is any specific reference to Jesus leaving his image on his burrow shroud. So now there's a reason for that. You know, it's called the discipline of the secret. When you think of when the gospel were written 20 to 30 years after the events in question, persecution was in high swing.

They had already killed James in 42. They tried to kill Peter. And so you're not going to have any overt reference to, oh, and Peter has the burial shroud containing the blood of the atonement and the image of resurrection. Oh, yeah, right. It set off a search and destroy mission immediately to go find it and destroy it. So there couldn't be any overt reference to it. But it's intriguing, though, how from the 6th century, there's this, there is liturgy that is brought to Spain by a group of Arab Catholics, and they translate that exact same verse, John chapter 20, verse 1 through 9. They translate it this way. Peter and John ran to the tomb and saw the recent imprints of the dead and real.

man on the linens. Well, now that's intriguing. That's not in scripture per se, but this is how they chose to translate John chapter 20, verse 5 and 6. Why would they translate it that way unless it was based on something that they were aware of, had seen for themselves? And so that's, and that's 1500 years ago. So does it go all the way back to first century? I don't know. All I know is that the first piece of evidence that Jesus had risen from the dead is specifically related to the burrow shroud, and John becomes the first of the apostles to believe in the resurrection based on that evidence. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it.

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Would there be any way to take a shroud off of a body, especially one that's been through a crucifixion? You know what I mean? Like without it destroying it? Well, you know, you would certainly, you know, break all of the, all of the blood stains and, you know, all the scabbing that, you know, all of the, that would be, I mean, you could, but it would be, you know,

it's certainly, that's not what we see on the shroud. We don't see the evidence that the cloth has just been removed from a bloodied body. Russ, I love that you visit that verse because it's one of my favorites to remember that John reminds us that he was the fastest apostle. Yeah. He's like, he's faster than all the rest of them. So you talk about, so the wide receiver. I mean, he was the fastest, obviously. And he wanted that, he wanted that set down for posterity.

But what's so what happens then? And so you have this translation in Spain. Where do we have the first mention or first evidence of the shroud appearing, right? Or showing up because I think it's so interesting that there is. Yeah, who took it? Well, I mean, Russ makes a great point. Like, my question was always like, why? Why would they keep the burial shroud?

But if it, what we have today, if that is, it purported to be authentic, which we'll get into. And I think I know Russ's thought process and answer to that. But then you have a, you have evidentiary piece. You have something that actually conties directly to Christ and is a, is not circumstantial, but hard evidence to the resurrection. So, but how long does it disappear before we, we have any record of the shroud being, I don't know, displayed or popping up or showing up in, in history? Pope Sylvester in 325.

made a decree that the altar in which they serve the communion elements must be covered with a long linen cloth representing the clean shroud of Christ. Then you have another reference the following century in the fifth century by the bishop of Antioch who has a catechism for how the mass, should be celebrated. And then he says that the two deacons that that walked down the aisle to cover the altar with the linen cloth, that those two deacons represent the figure on the linen cloth of Jesus at the burial. So it's a reference to a double image because one of the things you see on the shroud, let's just back up a minute and describe what the shroud is. Because this is,

this is a 14-foot long linen cloth. You want to throw it on the screen, Dan? But it's only three and a half feet wide. So it's a long, narrow cloth with bearing the front and back image of a bearded, crucified man. And it's about 5 foot 10 or 11 in height. And it's the image itself is exceedingly faint, but it also has a, an entire pattern of bloodstains that correlate with the wounds of crucifixion. Specifically, the wounds that correlate with the crucifixion of Jesus,

meaning the crown of thorns, which was a singular mockery for the man who claimed to be king of the Jews, scourging all over the body, wound in the side, no one's in the wrist, no one's in the feet. I mean, and so all this is evident on the shroud. and so it's clearly not the shroud of just anybody. It's pretty specifically, there's really no mistaken identity. If the shroud is authentic, then it's the borough shroud of Jesus and not some just like anybody who happen to get crucified.

You're looking at this notion, and when the bishop of Antioch, he says that the two deacons represent the the figure on the linens, he's referencing the frontal image and the dorsal image that we see on the shroud. So that's from the fifth century. And the one I've mentioned to you first earlier is from the sixth century. So one of the really most important kind of from a documentary standpoint is artistically, your representations of what Jesus looked like, all change in the sixth century. You know, there are images of Jesus from the second, third, and fourth century that are,

that earlier ones are on the catacomb walls, and he's short hair, clean-shaven, and there's even mosaics of Jesus, again, clean-shaven, short hair. But beginning in the sixth century, everything changes. to show Jesus with long hair, full beard, large hollow eyes, long, flattened nose, stylistically, looking very similar to what we see on the shroud. And so what happened is, is that that's when the, because historically, the shroud, we believe, was taken from Jerusalem to ancient Odessa, which today would be in southern Turkey. And it was there, and it was brought there by the apostle Jude and is there and literally remains there for hundreds of years. And finally,

but in the later first century, persecution broke out. This cloth was hidden away inside of a wall for several hundred years. And then a flood hits the city. And then the rebuilding of the city, they rediscover it after Constantine. And so it becomes known as the true likeness of Christ, not made by human hands. And so from the early, from about 525 on, all of your artistic representations conform to what is known as the true likeness. And so starting in the early sixth century, there are no artistic representations of Jesus other than what has now become known as the true likeness. And so, you know, hence Jonathan Romney, who have the chosen? Why do you think he looks the way he looks?

And it's because stylistically, even today, you know, that true likeness instructs our understanding of what Jesus looked like. And so that's a really strong piece of evidence because that true likeness was based on the shroud itself. Russ, assuming this is what it is, how do you think the image goes from, you know, have you done? any screen printing or anything like that if you've if you ever printed something on a like a piece of cloth or a t-shirt you know it's a complicated process how do you think that image gets on to the cloth and is there any other linen two questions that's this old that we still have that hasn't fallen apart or you know oh yeah we have we have we have we have linens going back to of 1,300 BC.

So it's not really a matter of linen. If linens met out of flax, which is very, very durable. And as long as you, you know, keep it dry and it'll last centuries. When you look at the nature of the image, you started asking me about printing and how the image could have got onto the cloth. You have to look at the attributes of the image. So because remember, this is the most analyzed artifact in the world. It's been subjected to thousands of hours of scientific analysis.

You had a whole team of 33 American scientists go to Turin in 1978. They have access to the cloth for 120 hours, working around the clock and shifts. And all their results were published in 24 different peer-review journal articles, The top flight science, and it's, and the, and so what did they discover? Number one, there's no trace of any kind of paint, ink, dye, pigment, stain. There's no artistic substances on the cloth to account for the image. the image is visible because something has caused the accelerated dehydration and oxidation of the cellulose fibers composing the flax but only in those areas immediately surrounding a body so in other words the image

is literally a discoloration of the cloth with something having interacted with the flax fibers This is a Bose moment. It's 10 blocks from the train to your apartment door. 10 basic, boring city blocks until... The beat drops in Bose clarity. Streetlights become spotlights as you strut down the sidewalk, your own personal runway. With Bose, you get every note, every baseline, every detail, just as you should.

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it only penetrates one to two micro fibers in depth. Now, each individual thread is made up of about 200 microfibers. So that means this image resides on about 1% of a single thread. So if you were to Google the shroud right now, or look at an image in a book or a magazine, the first thing you'd see is a whole pattern of burns and burns and patches and scorch marks. Because the shroud was in a fire in 1532. It's kept in a silver box, the top of the box melted in a glob of molten silver,

fell down onto it, burning all the way through it, creating a series of 16 holes, because it was folded in 16 layers. And so that's the first thing you see. And so then you'll see a whole pattern of water stains. You'll see the blood stains. And so, of course, you see the image. But when you flip the cloth over,

you would see the burns, the water stains, the blood stains, but you will not see the image of the man. The image of the man is a purely superficial phenomenon affecting only the top one or two microfibers on the inside of the cloth facing the body. So this is probably the most intriguing attribute of the shroud. Now, I've got to tell you this, too, this is crazy stuff here. But when they analyzed the depth or the or the image density, it's the same. wherever you check it.

Anywhere on the frontal image, anywhere on the dorsal image, it's the same. It would seem that you'd need a piece of technology to accomplish that. So there's no variation in density, and it's a monochrome image, meaning it's the identical color. There's no variation in color. There's, and it's, so it's, it's, um, so it's, um, so you have a whole pattern of bloodstains. It feels like a perfect photographic negative of, you know, you take, well, right. Yeah. Well, that was that, that was the, that was the discovery that, that launched the shroud into the realm of scientific investigation back in 1898 when it was photographed for the very first time.

And when they photographed it, they, they, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what's square, he was the amateur photographer who got, who got, who had the permission to photograph it. And, in, you know, this is back in, you know, on that plate is this famous photo negative image of the face and he the his story goes he almost fell out of his apartment because he was so stunned by what he saw and and because because on the cloth itself it's very it's kind of faint and blurry and indistinct but in the photo negative it's it's much clearer much more lifelike much more much more pronounced in the photo negative now as i challenge audiences all the time i say now how many if you remember taking pictures with film, you know, nobody raises their hands, you know.

Yeah. You get a, you know, you take your 35 millimeter film canister and you take it down to Kmart, and they're not around anymore either. And you get your pictures back. And in the back of the pictures is a sleeve of negatives. You hold the negatives up to the light and say, who is that? You have to develop it to see what's on the negative. So then it begs the question, why then does the image look so much clearer?

so much more life like in the photo negative. And nobody could understand that. And it's, and well, the answer, I mean, we know why, but we don't really know how, is that the image that is on the cloth itself must be a negative image to start with. Therefore, what shows up on a photo negative is a positive image. Who knows why? It's the, so this, this. This discovery was what launched the shroud into the realm of scientific investigation.

And it's been the subject of scientific investigation for over 100 years now. Before that sort of discovery, they just were passing it around, like, from person to person over the centuries. Like, here, take this. Well, it was permanently installed in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in terms. in Italy. Okay. That was completed in 1694. And so it has been there ever since then prior to it being permanently.

Now, it's not on exhibit. I mean, it's sealed up inside of a special case. But it would be brought out for public exhibitions and it would be exhibited in that church. And then the process. The, prior to 1694, it was exhibited outside in the royal courtyard because the shroud has been in private ownership from 1453 until 1983. It was owned by all of the kings of Italy. And so that's over 500 years. It was in private ownership.

And so in 1983, well, the king of Italy was exiled from Italy in 1947 after World War II. And he went off to live in Portugal in exile, but he allowed the shroud to remain in Turin under the auspices of the Catholic Church. And so any time there was an exhibition, it had to have permission of the king in order to do it. But in 1983, he was dying. And when his only son got married in Las Vegas, he realized, well, I can't give this to my son. There's no telling what he'll do with it. And so at that point, he willed it to the current living pope. And so since 83, it's been owned by the Pope.

But prior to that, it was owned by the Savoy's. And it's, so having said that, so from, from 1453 on, it's been exhibited publicly, but always outside in the, on these platforms that they would build. And when it was in Turin, beginning in 1578, you would, you would have up to 60,000 people come during these public exhibitions that were held outside. they would build a big platform inside the royal courtyard. And then they would hold it out literally, by manually, by hand. You'd have five or six clerics up on the platform, holding the shroud horizontally. So then people could view it, see it, venerate it, whatever.

And so that's how the shroud was exhibited prior to when it was installed in the church in 1694. Russ, so you talked about how the scientists had this unique access to it. So can you talk a bit about the evidence that they uncovered to authenticate not only it's like it's age, but also things that they found in the science that point to it being authentic, right? Because this is always the thing is with relics or ancient things is like, how do you verify it's from where it's from? or the time period it's in.

And how do you verify that it's not, you know, a forgery? A forgery or an elaborate, you know, a hoax or whatever. But I know, as you said, this has been the most studied relic or piece of anything ever. So how do you do that? And then also maybe before that, let me ask you this. How different is this burial cloth from maybe any other burial cloth, right? Because if you're listening to the show right now, like the way that this image, showing, you know, what's purportedly Christ after crucifixion.

That's not everybody's burial cloth looks like this, right? No, they're all over the board. You know, burrows shrews, in different cultures. What's interesting is that the Jews, although they use burial shrouds, we don't hardly find any of them, is because they used uschewaries. And an ushuary is a limestone bone box, essentially the size of a beer cooler. And so when someone dies, they would place the body in the tomb,

wrap it in a cloth and a shroud. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice.

Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. But they would come back a year or more later and the body's decomposed. They take the bones, put them in a box, etch on the outside, whose bones they are. And then they could stack these boxes in the tomb. So you could have multiple people buried inside this tomb. And so, but hence, as a result, the shroud itself that it was originally wrapped in is burned or buried. And so we don't find very many Jewish burroshaas because of their use of ushawares.

But typically, a burrow shroud, even for Jews, could be wool. It could be, it could be an animal skin if you had very little means. You could always find an animal skin to bury your dead in. But the shroud is made of flax, which is a more expensive material. And specifically, the weave of the flax is a three-to-one herringbone pattern weave, making it very expensive, doable in first century using first-century loom technology. but what does the scripture say? Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man, purchased a fine linen cloth. Everything about the manufacture of the shroud of Turin would indicate that this is one of the most expensive fabrics you could buy at the time,

simply because of the way that it was woven. And now I have a theory on this personally is that when you look at who Joseph was, he was a member of the Sanhedron. It's like being a senator. I mean, he was well attached to the temple. He had access to the temple store. On the day of atonement, the one day out of the year in which the Jewish high priest goes into the Holy of Holies to sprinkle, because it's a goat and a bull, and they sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat. but before he can go into the Holy of Holies to make that animal sacrifice, he has to take off his street clothes and put on clothes made of fine twisted linen.

Fine twisted linen represents the holiness of God. And so it's intriguing to me that the shroud itself is made of fine twisted linen. It seems to suggest that Joseph is kind of honoring Jesus with the finest linen cloth that he could buy, worthy of a high priest about to enter the Holy of Holies. Wow. It's wild. Do you think that, so when he walks in there,

obviously I liked what you said in the beginning of the episode about how the body of Christ just probably slowly just disappears almost. Do you believe that that process of him going down? You know, we talk about all the weird stuff on our show. So, you know, where does he go for three days? We've discussed that in depth on the show, but he's gone for a moment. So that process of him leaving Earth and going in shale or wherever the theories are, that leaves the image on this in a way that's unique?

One of the things when you, again, you look at the attributes of the image and the, but let's let's back up a minute. you have you really have two sets of images you have the image of the man yeah and you have a whole pattern of bloodstains yeah and they are separate and they are they are they are separate in time as well so in other words we know that this whole pattern of bloodstains got on the cloth first followed by the image now when did the image get there i don't know maybe three days later we don't really know But all we know is that the blood was on the cloth first. Now, how do we know that?

Because there's no image under the blood. If there's no image under the blood, then that means the blood was on the cloth first, followed by the image. Now, that's very intriguing, is because that would be consistent with the shroud being authentic, right? Crucifixion first, followed by resurrection. But it makes no sense if it's the work of an artist. I mean, in fact, you know, there's been a half dozen attempts by various people to show how some alleged artists could have crafted this. You know, most of them are pretty terrible. There's a few that look decent from a distance.

They all break down under the microscope, but they all make the same mistake. They craft their image, then they paint the blood where it's supposed to go, no, no, no. You know, blood first, then image. You do that, and you've really accomplished something. But no artists would even conceive of doing that. because, because, you know, I mean, you have to, how would you line them up? We know from the alternative, again, you mentioned it, this, you know, this, this constant either or proposition is that it either is authentic or it's not. And if it's not, then what is it?

Then it must be the work of an artist or the work of human effort somehow, some way, either as a fantastic fraud or as some kind of a devotional art of some kind. But it's not because that's one of the clear conclusions of the project is that there's no artistic substances on the cloth to account for the image. And there's no discernible process by which this alleged artist used to craft this image. Now, with respect, now, when you look at first, theories of how the image could have got there. Now, I'm in for light. I think somehow, some way, lights involved. And now, if you ask the question of what happened to Jesus in the

tomb, remarkably, this is the greatest miracle of all. This is the one miracle that establishes him clearly as the son of God. And yet there were no eyewitnesses to that miracle. There's a reason. there was a big stone put in front of the entrance. So if you're going to ask the question of what happened to Jesus in the tomb, you have to look at other verses of Scripture. And in your show, you probably explored all these. You know, you have the Mount of Transfiguration, which occurred six months before Jesus was even crucified.

And Peter, James, and John are at the bottom of the hill. Jesus goes up to the top of the hill and it says, and his face was transfigured. He was transfigured before them. and his face shone, became like the sun itself, and his clothing became dazzling light. So here you have Jesus. He's described as a being of light before the crucifixion. And then how does he appear to Saul, who becomes Paul, on the road to Syria in Damascus?

You know, and this is maybe four years or four or five years after the crucifixion, in a blinding flash of light so bright that Saul is, thrown to the ground. He can't see. He's blinded for three days. And you know, we all know he eventually became Paul and wrote half the New Testament. So, I mean, so on either side of the crucifixion, you have this, you, Jesus appearing as a being of light. So just from a, just do a straight Bible story, you know, study, what would we assume would have happened to the body of Jesus, the very split second, his soul came zooming back into that lifeless? body. I think you'd have to assume that there was an explosion of light and then gone. I mean,

that's what I believe. I mean, Peter and John ran to the tomb and they didn't find a body. All they found was an empty burrow shroud. But something caused John to believe that he had risen. Is this a clue as to what happened with the shroud? And I think so. One of the of the one of the theories that i i i i i like um and it comes to and again again none of this no we can we can replicate aspects of it but we can't replicate everything and one of the one of the intriguing experiments that that came out of with some physicists in in europe they published in a peer-reviewed journal in 2011 uh using a using a 40 nanosecond burst on a on a ultraviolet laser against a control sample of linen.

Now, these are industrial lasers. These are powerful things. And they determined that this 40-nanosecond burst achieves the same depth and coloration as we see on the shroud. And I'm saying, well, now that's cool. Because up till now we haven't been able to replicate anything with light. guess we just wasn't used anything bright enough. You know, we, we use a laser, and all of a sudden, we can do something. And so this, this, this split-second burst on a UV laser, you know,

so what does that, what does that remind you of? You look at First Corinthians 15, verse 51 and 52, where Jesus, where Paul is saying, listen, I tell you a mystery, we will not all sleep. That means to remain dead, but we will all be changed in a flash in the twinkling of an eye. And he goes on, he says, for that which is corruptible must put on incorruptible, that which is perishable, must put on imperishable. And so, so Paul's talking about an instantaneous, transformational event that occurs at the end of the age, hasn't even happened yet. He's not even talking about Jesus. He's talking about us, you and me. And so, but this is exactly. exactly what happened to Jesus in the tomb.

Now, how do I know that? Because Jesus is called the first fruits of the resurrection. If he's the first fruit, then that means we are the rest of the fruit that comes later at the end of the age. So now we pretty much know we're talking about just this instantaneous event involving light. And now we have these laser experiments that seem to correlate with that. So that's pretty profound. So I'm in for light. Introducing the new best skin ever,

ultra slim precision concealer from Sephora Collection. It's full coverage with a matte finish and perfect for any look, whether you're building it up for a full glam moment or targeting correction for a more natural vibe. At only $12, it's great for affordable touch-ups on the go. Get this new must-have concealer at Sephora or at Sephora.com today. Yeah, I like that you, it's almost like multiple layers here. You have sort of the blood is one layer and then you have this like negative image underneath it.

And I never really knew that. I never knew there was, and a lot of artists will do that. They'll layer their work and they'll kind of put negatives over each other. And you can kind of build out a 3D object. So this has like a 3D feeling to it. It was a back image too, right? So you have this whole, you had light coming from the body with the assumption, right? If you have a back image and a front image, you have this light event.

If we're to go with that theory, which I really like because, as you said, you have this, this depth that's uniform, which is, seems impossible. Honestly, like, especially, you know, in the first, in the first century. And I know that, like, from some of the I've read, too, that they, they found pollen. They found evidence on the shroud itself, which dated directly to the time of Jesus. Jesus. So this is also, you know, from from the first, the first century. Yeah. And yet it has a uniform, as you were saying, Russ, a uniform layer of imprint that's the same everywhere. And it sounds like a, like, like, like, like, I think light makes a lot of sense. Well, you know, anyone who, who knows what film is, film is one, the film is the photo, right? It's one piece. Now we have megapixel. We have pixels

that are all making the photo, but, but, but, but a film is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is one. piece. When you describe the shot as a photo negative, people don't really relate to it anymore, because we're not used to working with negatives. And nobody has a reason to digitally convert anything from the natural image to a negative image. But it's, you know, but it was a big deal back in the day. Did that change the perception? Like you were talking about that earlier, and I asked a question about that. When they took the photo and they looked at the, you know, the negative of the shrouded, did that instantly go like, okay, they knew what they had. This is, they're seeing something for the first time.

At first in 1898, when, when Secondopoea revealed that, it was not accepted by the scientific, the community of, and it's because they thought that he was perpetrating a fraud and that, no, there's no way that this shroud has this attribute. And so it wasn't until 1931 when the shroud was photographed again, this time by much better technology, much better film. And that this is when that photo negative image was validated. Oh, Sakhanopia wasn't a liar after all. And so he was vindicated. And then that is when also when you had newspapers and magazines and and books with pictures. And so then this thing went worldwide after 1931. And the whole world knew about it through, again, through magazines, books, and newspapers. Russ, I was thinking about when Jesus

appears to the disciples after, you know, when they see him again, he goes through the walls, right? He he has a different type of body now. Do you think when he comes back into his body, this burst of light comes and then he can pass right through the shroud? He doesn't have to take the shroud off and set it down. He just goes right through it. And then he's in his resurrected body,

in his glorified body, whatever he would say. And so then he goes to disciples. Is that sort of how you see it? Pretty much. I think so. I think this, his return to the body was, and it's, well, you know, that's probably not a scientific term, but the glorification of his body, when it became a glorified body, you know, like we, you know, just literally transformed into a being of light and then, you know, gone. He just just went right through the cloth. And, you know, one of the things that's intriguing, too, is that the, the, the, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, there's a part of this theory of the body converting to a volume of light, and then light has no mass.

And so for a split second, the cloth was descending through the body until the body gone. And so as a result, we pick up the large hollow orbits of the eyes, some roots of the teeth. We see the elongated fingers, which were picking up some of the skeletal structure, in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the hand so we're looking at some we

believe in some area we're seeing flesh and bone simultaneously because as the as the as the cloth was descending through the body uh to about a depth of eight millimeters and then gone that's all part of this of this called the the collapse theory um postulated by uh by john Jackson and it's very intriguing and it's so um it it probably doesn't explain everything but it explains some things and it's um so how how tall is jesus you said 511 i think right 511 okay around 511 maybe maybe even six feet is that's um i know that he's um now his they did excavations of the bodies found at Masada. And there's a whole range of skeletons that range from 5'5 to as tall as 6 feet.

So it's not out of the range for another. That's usually the next question is that that's really, really tall. But it's not out of the range. So what are the implications, then, like in your mind. And this thing has been tested and tested this last year too, right? Like this last year there's been... It's on tour.

It's on tour, but there's been another round of testing. I know that there's a... Well, let me back up. The shroud's not on tour. It was, right? No, it's never been on tour. Now, there's some photographic exhibits that are on tour. Okay.

And you might... But the shroud has always been in Turin, except for the seven years, it was brought to a monastery south of Rome to keep it away from Hitler from 1939 to 1946. Interesting chapter. And it's the, but other than that, it has been in Turen and really only there since 1578. But what has come out recently, we've seen some rendition of what Jesus would have looked like based on artificial intelligence. That was really interesting.

We have to remember that there's still some interpretation required because, you know, because if you base it on the shroud, the shroud has photographic-like qualities, but it's not a photograph per se. And so, having said that, we're still going to be some interpretation as to the skin tone or the hair color or eye colors and things like that. But overall, it was a pretty impressive image. And then that came out recently. And the other one was, now dating has been kind of a conundrum because it was carbon dated in 1988.

And they said it had a date range of 1260 to 1390. So I guess it's nothing more than a medieval fake. Unless you realize how they bought the carbon dating and took one sample instead of three, and took that one sample from the most handled area of the shroud that now appears to have been part of some kind of a medieval repair. And because published in 2005, a chemist who was involved with the Shroud project was able to compare the thread samples that were taken for the carbon test and compare with thread samples from the main body of the shroud,

and they're not the same. They appeared, so in other words, it appears to have, been that corner. Remember, I've told you I was held by clerics. It went for hundreds of times over the centuries. And so they literally cut the sample from the most handled, most contaminated part of the cloth that you could want. And probably what, like we said, was subjected to some kind of medieval repair. And because they only took one sample and cut it in the three little pieces, instead of taking three different samples, you know, it's like what could go wrong? So now we know that that sample was not fully representative of the entire cloth.

We have no idea what we dated. And so part of the recent news that came out this year was using a new technology called Wide-angle X-ray scattering, which measures the amount of natural aging in fibers they were able to correlate the amount of natural aging in fibers from the shroud with linen fibers found at Massada, circa first century. And so simply by comparison to other fabrics, we know that the shroud is far older than the 700 years alleged by the carbon labs. And it's so so that's been some, was a real interesting.

revelation on dating. We've known historically that the carbon date is wrong, period. We know that the shroud was in Constantinople in 1204 and was stolen during the Fourth Crusade. Well, 1204 is already older than the oldest carbon date of 1260. It didn't just get there. It had been there for hundreds of years. In fact, it arrived in Constantinople in 944. So we know the carbon date's wrong. And it's, but the, but the, the question was, was, was, was how wrong is it? It seems to be pretty, pretty much significantly wrong. It's amazing you can devote your, your whole life to this, to this piece because there's so many skeptics, you know, you have to consistently look at it and analyze the data. And I think you've been able to

maintain a pretty objective view on this, given how you're talking about it. I like that, that, you know, you're still willing to look at the data and, and learn more about it as it comes and has the technology changes and we can analyze these things deeper. What specifically about the shroud tip the scales for you? Made you go, this isn't a modern, this isn't an ancient forgery. This is the real deal. What about it specifically changed your mind? Well, I'd just have to say that in my personal faith journey,

I was a believer before I ever learned about the shroud. and I've been involved in this for a long time. I mean, I was, you know, I was a writer for the college newspaper back in 1980, and news of the shroud was huge at that time. I mean, you had this whole team of scientists go over there in 78, 33 American scientists to go study a religious artifact. This doesn't happen. I mean, this is, this is so singular. It was almost like some kind of a lunar landing or something. We were just, you know, most of the scientists were involved in space age, you know, research.

And so people were hanging on what would they find? What would they, you know, what would be revealed? And it was very, it was just the knowledge of the shroud was everywhere at that time. I mean, in fact, do you remember the movie by the, with Dan Aykroyd and John Belushi, the, the Blues Brothers? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, this is, this is, this is going to be a flavor here. This movie was made in 1980.

And, you know, and Jake and Elroy and Jake's getting out of Juliet prison, and they're going to put the band back together because they need the race. $5,000 to pay the back taxes on the, for the, for the orphanage that they both grew up in and they're in Kellyanette City in Chicago, right? That's the whole theme. And so now, do you, do you know the name of the orphanage? It's, it was, it's called, um, um, St. Helen of the Blessed Shroud orphanage. Now, why would they do that? Why would they? Because it's total fictional, you know, they, but they, but they threw it in there because, Because back in their late 70s, early 80s, the knowledge of the shroud was, everybody knew about it. And it's, and so the, so it was, you know, but so you had all these, all these, you know, scientists.

So from my standpoint, my interest was, was not from the standpoint of confirming what I believed. I believed anyways. but from my own personal journey is that my father had become a professing atheist. And so I looked at the shroud as a kind of an apologetic way of reaching an atheist dad, as well as all my friends, and none of them were believers either. And so I looked at the shroud as an intriguing tool, if you will, to present the evidence of the gospel in this really cool way. And my dad actually did come back to the faith 20 years later.

It took a long time, but he actually did before he passed away. And so for me, I never needed the shroud from my own faith. I always looked at it as an apologetic tool, if you will. I don't know if that's a good term or not. You know, I'm not interested in other linens. I don't care. I mean, if this was the shroud of Julius Caesar, who would care? No one would care.

But because of who it purports to be, could this be the burial shroud of Jesus? Could this be literally an archaeological artifact testifying to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. I mean, so it's all about potential, you know, because right now, it's an unsolved mystery. And there's plenty of evidence to support it. You know, it's a few things like carbon dating that may, we have other dating, you know, methodologies that say it's first century, but the scientific purists, you know, won't be happy until we carbon dated again, but that's never going to happen. The church isn't going to allow it. I say the church, I'm talking about the Catholic Church.

And so you have this fabulous mystery, and it is absolutely ridiculous to call the shroud a relic. You know, fine, if you have the finger bone of Saint so-and-so, yeah, you call that a relic, how do you know? How do you know it's for real? You don't know. This is why there's such skepticism around relics in general. But if you found a 400-foot boat, 7,000 feet above sea level in the mountains of Turkey, you wouldn't call it a relic. You'd call it an archaeological find of the century.

And that's exactly what the shroud is, you know, because it is measurable. It is testable. And it's, you know, and there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, reason why people think that this is the brood of Jesus, because it perfectly correlates with the gospel account. So applying forensic analysis, we can identify who this man is. Why do you think people still remain skeptical of it? Why do you think people are still, like, I don't know? Because, I mean, in our spaces, a lot of Christians are, the first people to throw shade and doubt at some of these things. Well, you have to look at, you know, there is a divide

between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church, and John Calvin put the cabotch on relics. And, you know, I mean, like I say, it's certainly reasonable to be skeptical about these things. But again, when you lump the, I think that's the number one issue is because there is, you know, well, isn't that thing Catholic? Well, of course it's Catholic. It's been in Italy and France for the past 700 years. It's not going to be a Baptist relic. I'm not even sure those two words go together. But prior to it being a Catholic relic, it was with the Orthodox.

And it's so, you know, it's intriguing to me that the shroud, clearly from the Gospels, is the first piece of evidence that Jesus had risen for. from the dead, causing John to become the first of the apostles to believe in the resurrection based on that evidence. Now, in Acts chapter 1, verse 3, it says Jesus showed himself to be alive through many convincing proofs. Now, most of those proofs were all post-resurrection appearances, but the first proof was the linen cloth lying there in the tomb. Why is it such a stretch then to believe that that cloth was kept, maintained, passed down through generation, and is in Tehran, Italy right now? Now, I think the shroud was a real conundrum for the Jews, because, number one, it wrapped a corpse.

Number two, it's covered with blood. So it's doubly unclean. But wait a minute. Jesus was dead, but now he's not. So is it unclean or is it clean? And so I think they said, well, we don't know. Let's just give it to the Gentiles. Let them figure it out.

And so I think that's why it quickly, that plus I think there's a tremendous amount of persecution going on. I think the first thing that they had to get out of Jerusalem was the linen shroud. Because of anything, of any artifact that might have been associated with, with Jesus or even his apostles, you know, the pinnacle would have been the, the burial cloth that contained the blood of the atonement. And so that had to leave first. And I think it went to Edessa, which was a city, the king of Edessa, Abgar, the fifth, he became a believer. And so he could provide the safety for it. And so that's that's kind of one of the, one of the historical theories.

It's a smoking gun of the resurrection, right? It's the, it's the original piece of evidence. It's, oh, I love, I love this, Russ. It's so interesting. Well, I want you to think just apologetically. Yeah. A lot of apologetics teachers don't, don't touch it. Some do.

Lee Strollable does. He talks about it was in his movie case for Christ. He has it in here twice. It just depends on the, from an apologetic standpoint, there's nothing more powerful than the shroud. And it's because it goes to the bullseye of the Christian faith. as a lecturer and a presenter on the shroud, I present in Catholic churches all the time, Protestant churches, Orthodox churches, and I make no change to what I do.

I don't have a Catholic version. I don't have a Protestant version. I have one version, because all branches of the faith should be able to agree on the life, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus. We might argue over, over communion, we might argue over baptism, but we're not going to argue over that. Because if you do, you're not a Christian. So here we have this incredible artifact that remains this profound mystery that goes to the very bullseye of the Christian faith. And if it's authentic, which I certainly think it is, then it's the very cloth that led to the very cloth that led. John to believe and become the first of the apostles to believe in the resurrection, is it possible

that the shroud comes full circle now? Do you think that the shroud could be used to reach a generation that is unchurched and thinks that the that the Bible, or they've been taught, that the Bible is full of contradictions and errors and mythology and, you know, but here you have this, You know, I have a nephew. He kind of fell away from the faith. And I asked him, what caused you to lose your faith? And he said, he said, science. I said, what science?

You know, it's like, you know, because there's this, there's this, there's this, a belief that science is going to figure everything out. Right. But it's science itself that has revealed. the mysteries related to the shroud. And so, you know, so the, I think the shroud is, is here for a reason. I think it's been, has been kept and preserved and has had an impact on each generation in its own way. But now today, in the 21st century, I'm intrigued by what science is going to do next. Yeah.

Because it was, because it was science that revealed the photo. negative in 1898. And then it was, and then 1975 using a special computer called a VPA image analyzer, that's when we determined that the shroud has distance information embedded into it. In other words, a three-dimensional image. Well, how can that be? And it's, and then moving forward now, you have all this, you have artificial intelligence is going to take us into another leap. And so every time, you know, science keeps it alive and keeps it moving forward. And it is science itself that brings us to this point of saying, you know, this thing could be authentic. And then so, but wouldn't it be just like God for to use science to affirm the faith?

I look at the shroud as a proverbial two-edged sword because you have, you have, well, you know, it's like Pope John Paul the second. He compared, you know, faith and reason as being the two wings of a bird. You got to have both. You got to have faith. You got to have reason. And the bird's not going to fly without both of them. Well, the disciples were skeptical. You know, obviously they're like, do something else.

Prove who you are. You know, show us that you're actually resurrected. And I think that's something that speaks to all humans. And there are some that are more faith-based on that side of the wing. They feel like something else is revealing the truth to them. But there's also the people that need to put their hands on something and go, this, okay. Thomas, he's got to put his hand. He's like, he's got to put a hand on the scars and the holes in the hand.

And he believes. I think that's what you're saying, which I love, is that in this time of empirical evidence and the scientific post-enlightment academic paradigm, we now find ourselves in, the shroud itself is holding up and proving, proving the faith. And I hope they open it up. They let it, they let them carbon date again. I hope we can get into to get more data on this. But it seems everything you presented seems like this is the real deal.

And this is, this is something we can not physically touch, but we can, we can, yeah. Let me just mention about approach, because that's a real important. Yeah. I mean, personally, I think the show. is, you know, authentic. I always tell people, I'm 90% there. Okay, fine. I'll give 10% to the notion that I did that there's some artist who predated Leonardo by several hundred years.

We don't know who he is, and we don't know how he did it, and he never did anything else. I guess that's, I guess that's conceivable, I suppose. And he used lasers. I always have to leave a little bit out there for that. But I think it's it's from an apologetic standpoint, I always say, look, I don't know for certain that the shroud's authentic. I just think it could be. Let's explore the message. Let's explore the mystery.

And what are we going to do? We're going to encounter the message. And the message is pure gospel. And so you don't have to be dogmatic about it. You don't have to say this is the burrow shot of Jesus, and I'm going to prove it to you. That's not my approach. I'm just saying, hey, look at the evidence. I just think it could be.

And as you explore the mystery, man, it just goes right to the heart of the gospel. Let's just assume it is legit, that the blood of Christ on this thing has given it some sort of unnatural life, longer life, that it is something different than any old trout out there, that there is a, you know, the residue of the Son of God on this thing that's keeping it. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it than that, but is it a natural long life? It reminds you like the ring and Gallum when he's, he just lives forever because he's got this ring on, right, in the Lord of the Rings.

And it feels like there's something else that's keeping this. Well, there's something mystical about it in terms of the way that it is so well preserved. And it's, and it's. But, you know, again, you know, there's there's all kinds of mystical stuff out there. And, you know, and it's, I was featured on a documentary for the History Channel called The Real Face of Jesus. And the first thing you hear is, is me saying, is it possible that this ancient linen cloth captured the greatest paranormal event of all time? And, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And the producers got all wide-eyed and said, man, we got to use that. Yeah, so do we. There is something clearly mystical about the shroud. And who knows if part of that mystery is its preservation. And it's, so, yeah. Oh, Russ, thanks so much for being with us. And thanks to your work. I mean, your dedication to this is, you know, made you an expert for the History Channel

for, you present all over the world, you speak internationally. But yeah, let our listeners know where they can interact with your work, find your books, talk about, and your, your work, what you're, what you've been working on. Well, my website is shrouden counter.com. You can find out everything about me and if you're in it, I can, you can bring me to your, bring me to your church or school and I'll put on a 90-minute, you know, a big screen extravaganza. everything on, you know, and so I just published this book back in June, which is called Shroud Encounter, Explore the World's Greatest Unsolved Mystery.

And it's, and it's, so I'm very excited to have that book. I got about 75 images in it, and it's got a great price point. I think it's 1895, and the, you can buy it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. You can go to my website, shroudencounter.com. and so yeah and so this is this is what I love to do it's

people often ask me how can you be interested in an old piece of linen for so long it's not about the linen it's about the message and the yeah no I think that's a big part of what we do here

in Blurry Creatures is try to give more bring the scientists bring the authors bring the experts on the show talk about these things you know whether they've had a big foot encounter You know, the skepticism ranges from all over the things that we talk about. And Christians love to form an opinion before they actually look at the data.

And then they go, oh, I can't accept anything. And now we have this whole conversation with UFOs and there's crash and pieces. And people are just explaining these things away. But I think it's important for us to go back to the data, go back to the science and say, look, these, there are things that make you expand your paradigm. You have to think bigger. You have to think outside of the box a little bit. more. And yeah, this shroud is awesome. We're going to put the link to your book in our show notes and we'll also put it on our website. Thank you so much. Thanks, Russ. Russ for coming on.

Yeah, yeah, talking about it. My pleasure. Glad to be with you. Let us know anything comes up with a shroud between, you know, after this and we'd love to love an update. Okay, great. Well, I'll certainly do it. Thanks, Russ. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.