Blurry Creatures - EP: 303 The Paranormal Ranger with Jon Dover

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

Out on the vast, sacred lands of the Navajo Nation, strange things lurk in the shadows—things that defy explanation. Retired Navajo Ranger Jon Dover spent decades investigating the unexplained, from eerie Bigfoot encounters in the deep canyons to UFO sightings lighting up the desert sky. Tasked with handling cases most wouldn’t dare touch, Dover pulled back the veil on the paranormal activity haunting the reservation. What did he find? Who—or what—is out there? Tune in as Jon Dover shares firsthand encounters, ancient lore, and chilling experiences from his time as the Navajo Paranormal Ranger. This episode is sponsored by: https://quince.com/blurry — Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns when you shop now! https://drinkag1.com/blurry — Get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 & 5 FREE AG1 travel packs with your first purchase! Get our Book of Enoch audio: https://amzn.to/4aftwuc Get our Book of Enoch! https://amzn.to/4gpV4yZ Video Episodes Drop Every Tuesday! Website: blurrycreatures.com Blurry Creatures Socials https://www.tiktok.com/@blurrycreatures https://www.instagram.com/blurrycreatures https://www.facebook.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.twitter.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.youtube.com/@blurrycreatures Special Thanks for Platinum Members! Mitchell Moody Scott Cragg Joshua Drummond Maureen Munoz Amber Freeman Nicolle Benz Zach Mills Adam Dougherty Desiree Nichols Kate Logan Kimberly Lee Fayola Shakes Suzanna Wenzel Kent Denmark Michelle Watkins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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By identity, I mean, they're actual flesh and blood people. They do singing, they do chants. They have to have the skin of an animal that they're going to change into. We're talking about Navajo witchcraft. For Christians, it seems like there's a disconnect. Because if you talk about that kind of stuff in church, well, that's demonic. That's something that you should stay away from. Don't even talk about it.

don't go near it. And if it's happening to you, then, you know, what are you going to do? The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the phone chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they had a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. There's something strange from the Navajo Reservation. Who are you going to call? You're going to call

John Dover, who is a paranormal ranger and he has a whole history of dealing with the weird stuff on the reservation. John is also a born-again Christian, and he comes on our show and talks about all of his experiences through the lens of the Navajo and how they see things, which is obviously a lot of different than we see things. But he's been all over the place. He's been on all these TV shows and his careers. Him and his partner's career have really taken off. So he's been on the show before. I think it was one 13, 15 somewhere in that range. But he's coming back. It's been a long time coming. And Luke loves to reference this. I do. I love this. I loved our first episode with John's. I'm very excited to have him back. Shortly after we had him on,

there's an episode with John and his partner Stan on Unsolved Mysteries. He's been on the show Skinwalker Ranch a number of times and the spinoff show. So John and Stan, his partner have, they were both rangers on the Navajo Reservation for a really long time. And as you know, if you listen to the first episode, a lot of crazy stuff happens on the Navajo Reservation in this 27,000 square miles of blurriness. Yeah, so really excited to have John back. to talk about some more of his stories, experiences, his thoughts on a lot of the phenomena, and then a very fascinating piece on Skinwalkers. It's always something that's interesting in our space because it combines the dark arts and

witchcraft, shape-shifting. It's about as blurry as you can get. And it's very specific to the Navajo culture, and he dealt with these things, these critters. And that's why I made the joke in the beginning because he shows up. People don't know who to call. They call the police. Sometimes they come. Sometimes they don't.

They call the fire department. They call whoever. But if you run out options, you call John and John would show up. And a lot of people quit this job right away because they realized how strange and weird it was. But John's a great dude. And he comes on and shares his experiences and firsthand accounted with these people and interviewing them. Everything from Bigfoot to UFOs, like Luke said, Skinwalkers and aliens and all the other stuff. So let's get John on this one if you want to become a member of BlurricFectures.com slash members.

Join up. Help us produce the show. And you get access to unreleased episodes, no ads on the podcast, tickets early. and all kinds of great perks on the back end. Hit the membership button, help produce the show. Let's get John on this one. Thank you guys. All right, welcome back to Blurry Creatures, John Redbird Dover, the paranormal Rangers.

You guys have blown up since our last interview. You've been on Netflix. You've been on TV shows. Your partner has a book deal, and that's out now, and it's selling well on Amazon. And everyone's talking about your guys' history of your career as Navajo Rangers. 4,700 square feet. Square miles. Square miles.

It's a small ranch home otherwise. You know, in Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. And you brought you on the first time. He had a bunch of wild stories and we've been wanting to get you back on again. But you guys have been, you guys have blown up. So it's hard to get you on the schedule. But we're happy for you guys. Congratulations on all the success and everything going on.

And I'd love to get back into some blurry stories here now in the blurry basement. Welcome back to the podcast, John Dover. Well, thank you very much. We've got a lot of information, a lot of stories. Like you said, we did blow up. My book so far has 47 chapters, and it goes basically through my entire career. I was a technical accident investigator. I was in EMT. There were hazardous materials response, technical rescue instructor, things like that. So I'm getting into the whole thing and the paranormal is just a part of it because in actuality, the paranormal stuff only intruded less than 1% of our actual duties. Yeah, which is a lot. I mean, because I think some people spend their whole life and they never get to see some of the blurier things they're looking for. You know, if you're like some of these Bigfoot enthusiasts spend their whole life trying to figure out how do I prove this thing exists and they never get to see it. And you tracked one.

And yeah, you're trying to know. I love that story. I mean, John, it's great to have you back from just like a personal standpoint. I think our first episode is one of my favorite ones we've done. I knew so little. I'll bring it up. I bring it up. It's one of my favorite ones.

I knew so little about, you know, things that go on on the Navajo Reservation. I know that reservations in general. I have a few Native American friends are often places that where weird stuff happens. Just sort of, it's part and parcel with the territory, if you will. But I'm so, it's so cool to see what's happened with your story. I remember you talking the last time about how people would show up for the job you had for, you know, for what is it, 30 something years and they would, they'd last a day and be gone. Yeah. But you persevered and you have all kinds of wild, wild stories.

We talked about Skinwalkers, Bigfoot, aliens, and coins coming out of nowhere. It was this, if you haven't listened to it and you're tune in to blurry creatures here, go check out our first episode with John. It'll lay a lot of groundwork for where we pick up. today. It's, yeah, it's great to have you back. It's so cool to see your stories or getting out there and resonating. You and Stan are doing the rounds and people are really interested in what you're working on. You've been on Skinwalker Ranch a number of times, the TV show, also the spinoff. So you've been a busy man, and we appreciate you taking out. Yeah, that's episode 115 we had you on. Yeah. So if you want to go back and listen to episode 115, where

you're at now, John, what's been some latest sightings and some paranormal stuff that you've been hearing about and some recent things. One of the things that, and by the way, we've got our own podcast here. It's called Native paranormal crossroads with the paranormal rangers. And we have a new member that's working with us. Her name is Michelle. She has a journalist background and an investigator background. And she's Native American also.

Utah. One of the things that I wanted to stay right up front, and this is what we've been talking about on our show, is that the government, everybody is waiting for the government to come out and say aliens are real, UFOs are real. And what's interesting is that There's a whole different thought about it here on the reservation. Native Americans as a people all across the United States, we're talking 574 different recognized tribes just in the states alone. They've known that these things are real for centuries. And, you know, it's kind of funny because we don't trust the government.

Right. out of 6,000 treaties that were made since 4922, not one of them was ever kept. So we've got a pretty good track record going with the government. And we don't need the government to tell us that these things are real. People just know they're real and live with it. So there's a really big difference in attitude when we work with people and we talk with them about these subjects. I think that's good, John, because I think if you, you'll come with this with no skepticism of the sense that I think a lot of people think the government's going to lie to

us if they tell us these things are real. They think that's going to be a lie. And when you look into the data, you're like, they're covering it up more. It seems to be the answer. Right. And one of the things that we did, both me and Stan, were trained law enforcement officers. I was trained at the in criminal investigations at the federal law enforcement training center in Glencoe, Georgia. And, you know, it's a whole separate class, you know, just for investigations. And what we did is we used the laws of legal evidence in investigating these things. We were being skeptical. We didn't go in and said, oh, I just believe, you know, because belief is.

is having faith that something is real. We went in and we said we want evidence that we could take to a federal court. And that's, that was our goal is trying to get proof that this thing was actually happening. And we got it hands down. We got a lot of proof that this thing is real. Talk about that, John. Talk about some of the,

some of the things that you, especially in this realm of the UFO. phenomenon that you guys, some of the investigations. I know there was one we talked about last episode about this craft going up, back up a hill when you were, you got a call and investigated that. But talk a little bit about that. And then maybe, before you get to that,

let me ask you this. So you talk about 574 tribes that have, that know this phenomenon is real. What is the, what is the overall, like the overarching belief or understanding of what, what this UFO phenomena is when it comes to the tribes and to the Native Americans. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

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beyond that, we started saying, is it possible that these, because Native Americans have what they call an oral tradition, history is passed down through oral teachings. And what we found out is that in just the Navajos, you have a ceremony called a enemy way dance. And that enemy way dance is over three different nights. It has about 240 different songs that you have to go through. The Medicine Man has to recite. They have to be done in a very specific order. And you can't mess them up. And they're done by memory.

And if any of that is messed up, people are paying thousands of dollars. for these ceremonies, that ceremony is completely negated and the medicine man can't charge you. So, you know, you better believe people are watching for any little mistakes. And these things are done. 240 songs are sung without error. And we saw this in a UFO landing investigation where, Bigelow Aerospace Research investigators came in and interviewed an old man. We had Mufon investigators interview him, and we interviewed him.

So three separate interviews, sit down interviews with him that were recorded. And in four years that he did these interviews, every one of matchup. He didn't embellish. He didn't leave things out. He just stated them exactly as, as they happened. And each investigation over four years had the same information in them. So that's pretty amazing when you consider that the guy was in his mid-80s. Right, it's precision, right?

You're talking about, like, the idea of remembering 240 songs in a row is an oral tradition, but it's precise. It's not, it's the same every time. and the same thing with this guy's interview. So what is that story, though, particularly? What is this guy to interview? Because if it's Bigelow and it's you guys, I forget you said the third party was,

this had to be a pretty significant encounter. We call it the old man case. This elderly man was at home. His wife and his daughter had gone to Phoenix. And Phoenix is maybe a four-hour drive for them one way. So they're living in this remote area And their nearest neighbors Probably a half mile away

And About, you know, one o'clock in the morning or so He sees lights coming through his front window And so he thinks, you know, that looks like a car coming. He goes to the window and doesn't see a car. You know, with the headlights on. So, you know, he starts looking and what he sees is this ball of light about 25 feet in diameter that's circling around his house. And as he watches it, it goes up on the hill behind his house about a quarter mile away.

And he says he doesn't know if it lands or if it just covers up there. something comes out from underneath. It goes down. He sees this thing go down toward another house near where he lives and go back up to the craft and then come down toward his house. He has a small blue healer pup that's maybe about six months old. And it runs out barking in the night, you know, toward where these things are coming in. And he says that he hears the dog yelp.

Dog comes running back to the house. It lays down in the front, you know, by the steps and doesn't move. You know, it just curls up in a ball. So about then he's getting kind of nervous. He goes inside the house. He locks himself in and starts looking out through the windows. And his description is that in Navajo, there's no word for, or alien.

Right. So he's describing, because Navajo is a very descriptive language, he's describing to us that he sees what he calls four small children walking around the outside of his house. And they have big heads, they have big black eyes that kind of wrap around. They're wearing skin tight, uh, metallic or, white colored, light-colored, you know, outfits. And as you're walking around, they're shining these collimated beam lights that look like what you would see out of a laser, but they're about a half-inch in diameter.

Each light is a different color, red, blue, green, and yellow. And they're searching, there's four of them, they're searching the ground like they're looking for something. They're fascinated with these solar lights around this house, you know, just average solar light that you would buy, say, at Walmart or Costco or something like that. And as they go around these lights, he says the lights would dim and go out. And then they'd back up and the light would come back on. And he says they were just fascinated with these lights.

they'd keep leaning in and the light would go out. Pretty soon he's getting upset. He says, what are these little kids doing at my house at this hour? So he went out the front door. They're in the back. And he's going to sneak up on them. He takes this square flashlight, the old dry cell flashlights. Oh, yeah.

And takes that out with him. As he turns the corner at the back of the house, he tripped on the backstep, their concrete steps, and falls. Now, you and I know that at, you know, 80 plus when you take a fall, that could be serious. And he remembers looking up and he sees these things sitting in a row one after the other, kind of like, you know, you're sitting on a tube or something. and they're gliding back up the hill making no sound. And they got back in the craft and the craft took off.

So, you know, this is the story that he related. We did radiation readings on the surrounding area. We tried to find where the thing possibly landed or hovered, but we couldn't locate anything. No radiation readings up there, no ground. impressions. The dog, we found out later, when we went to investigate, the crew that was doing the background radiation readings were wearing Tyvec suits. And one of the girls that was in the crew there, she was a dog lover and she saw the puppy. And before that, we had showed up in

uniform and the thing was jumping all over us, you know, trying to lick us to death. And And, you know, when you're in a muddy environment, you don't want dogs jumping all over you. Because you're in uniform. And this girl, she was actually calling the dog. She was wearing one of these white suits. The dog saw the white suit, and it ran to the corner of the steps and curled up in a ball and stayed there. John, do you think that those suits that they're wearing are protection from the technology they have? You know, I don't know. I don't have any, I can speculate, and that they wear clothing at all

indicates that, yeah, it could be that there's some kind of a field there. And can we do understand that there are fields at work based on Bob Lazar statements, that there's a whole gravitational feel at play here. What are they wearing or not wearing? It's not something I know. know a lot about, are they described not wearing anything sometimes? Sometimes, yeah, the grays are said that sometimes they're not wearing anything. And in this case, they were wearing some kind of skin tight outfit. So what he saw was different than the grays. These aren't grays.

These are different. Yeah, but they had the big head. They were light colored. And they had the big black eyes. that are commonly associated. And he said that they were three and a half to four feet tall. Let me ask you this. Like when you talk about how Navajo is a descriptive language

and there's all of this oral tradition of the star people, are the descriptions of the star people the same as what this man's seen or the same as what we would consider be a gray? Or does that sort of description not come through in the old tradition? It's just sort of generally speaking. There are these beings called star people that visit and impart knowledge.

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the Navajo talk about coming through a series of different worlds into this world, depending on who taught you, could be five worlds or four worlds. And Stan goes into a lot of that description in his book. There's a world of darkness. There's a world of aquatic life. There's a world with insects, with giants, with other creatures. And then there's a hole in the sky that they climbed through and come out into what they call the shining world or this world. And so, you know, we started looking at that and we started saying maybe it's not just a fable. Maybe what they were describing is coming through a dimensional gate of some type.

And we started looking very closely at that idea. Now, today, this idea of multiple dimensions, there could be 10 or 12, there could be an infinite number. And actually, time is considered a dimension. And according to physicists. So we have this situation where the Navajos themselves may be describing coming through dimensional gates into different, places of being. And if that's true and their descriptions are accurate, they may have come through a series of dimensions to get here.

And that may be why, you know, other tribes have very similar origin stories, so to speak, that where they came from, that they came from under the ground. or from the earth or different places. And in those other realms, there were monsters, there were other creatures. And some of them were enemies, some of them imparted knowledge. So you have this whole civilization, so to speak. And so we started thinking maybe that's what links everything together. this idea of UFOs just popping into existence and then they fade out.

We've had people tell us that when they appeared, the pop was so loud that the sound hit them like a solid blow. They could feel it through their whole body. Then you have Bigfoot is a dimensional creature. He actually fades out. We've tracked him and his footsteps just disappear in trackable ground. ground. So, you know, we've already, and we've talked to people up in the Pacific Northwest that tell us that they've watched Bigfoot sitting behind a tree stump and watched him fade out and disappear. And that's why we haven't found a body. We haven't found, we haven't even found

their poop. You know, we haven't found any part of them aside from their hair. That's one of my, that's one of my favorite stories, though, John, the one that you just told about. It stuck with me from our first episode about you tracking the Bigfoot and then the footsteps disappear. And I think because what I love about your work is because you are, as you talked about, your trained law enforcement, trained forensic investigators,

you treated all of this paranormal stuff, paranormal ranger stuff in an empirical way. You could, measuring, collecting evidence. And the Bigfoot stuff is crazy. Like, as you said, this thing, there are lots of things. of stories about phasing out or looking like the predator like cloaked or um you know people just or people like in the missing 411 space like with david politis that feels very different than a portal

to me that's the interesting part like if big bigfoot can just slowly phase out versus these UFOs sound like they're coming through some kind of gate can you describe that popping like what that is like is it coming through like a sonic boom yeah like is it using its tech to open up something and go through because it still needs a vehicle once it's here. So there's a lot of weird questions. If they can just open these gates wherever, why do they need a vehicle? If they can just kind of phase in and do all that. That's the stranger parts of these conversations is why do they still need tech? One of the things that I did when I was at Skinwalker Ranch, I was able to sit down with Travis Taylor. And as you know, he's an astrophysicist. And, um,

I asked him if he was familiar with Nikola Tesla. And he said, well, I did Nikola Tesla as my thesis. So, you know, he knew he had reconstructed some of his experiments. And I asked him, are you familiar with Nikola Tesla's 369 theory? The 369 theory says that the numbers, 369 are you? magical. If you knew how to manipulate those numbers, you could literally do anything. Tesla was so enamored with these numbers that he would not stay in a room that the room number wasn't divisible by any of those numbers. He would get to work in New York and walk around

the city block three times before he entered the building. So, You know, you have this whole idea. And he gave each number an attribute. He said, three stands for energy. Six stands for frequency. And nine stands for vibration. And what I told them up there at Skinwalker Ranch is you guys have energy. You have something buried in the ranch that is emanating energy.

You think of it as a battery. I think of it as more of a capacitor that it can store energy and release it suddenly, and that's why people get injured for digging in the ground and stuff. You've got frequency that 1.6 gigahertz thing that keeps popping up in the series. I says, what you don't have is vibration. And so they brought a drum group up, the Blazing Bear drum group from Oklahoma. and had them do some drumming, and they had some really strange things happen during that time in that episode. So they're still searching.

There's, you know, all kinds of frequencies, and they're finding out frequencies can be used to heal. If they had the right frequencies, they could make a Klingon disruptor and cause your atoms to fly apart. So, you know, science is looking for ways to weaponize this stuff. Go back to that story about the old man's story. Was the UFO turning into a ball of light and going around the mountain? Or was he just perceiving it as light because it had bright lights? Yeah, it had bright lights. Because this is what people are describing right now with this whole drone phenomenon.

And we just released an episode on this, but we didn't really talk about how the things, theory is that these drones are looking for a nuke. But we know that UFOs show up when there's a nuke around. So there's like this whole, you know, it's like all these these things happening at once because people are describing, oh, yeah, I'm just seeing drones. And then people are saying, no, I'm seeing these balls of light, these orbs go around. And it reminds me of what you just described with this old man, this ball of light moving. It didn't sound like it. He saw a clear UFO. He saw something that was like a UFO. I don't know. He describes it as a ball of light, which could be an orb.

You know, I've seen orbs. I've had one follow me for about 40 miles and, you know, at 2 in the morning. And that kind of gave me a real uneasy feeling that, you know,

having this green ball of light following your vehicle right behind you 100 yards to the rear and just, is merely following you along. And I'm watching it. At one point I thought, okay, I'm armed. Should I turn around and confront it?

And I thought, no, that's not the thing to do is be confrontational or get violent. You know, because, man, we are a violent species. You know, we poke it with a stick. We shoot a rocket at it. We do all kinds of things, throw rocks, you know. And that's just our mentality. You go to the pond and you poke a at frogs with a stick. Yeah.

You know? So I thought maybe the best thing to do is just keep, just watch it and observe. And at the end, it faded out. It just just flat, slowly dimmed, and disappeared. Is that a way UFOs travel? Like they, do they turn into orbs? Or is orb a separate thing from a, like a traditional UFO? What do you think?

Well, traditional UFOs were saucer shaped, and I've seen those, you know, disc. We've seen them as triangles. We've seen them as cigars. Back in the 1800s, there were a lot of cigars flying around. It's almost like they're in some way they're evolving. And then, you know, we started seeing orbs. and we've seen others that are not there. You know, you see shadow go across the ground,

and you look up and there's nothing up there, but you see a round shadow on the ground. And we've had a lot of those be reported to us. So, and when we go to conferences and we mention that, people come up to us afterwards. You know, I was moaning my lawn and a big shadow went over and I looked up in the sky, there, you know, between me and the sun. So, yeah, there's a lot of weird technology out there.

There's the big delta wing craft that are like the Phoenix lights. Something went over that was, you know, supposedly a mile wide. and silent. I talked to Peter Davenport with the UFO Reporting Center. He said that the pilots encountered that craft at, they call it Angels 10. Angels 10 is military reference to 10,000 feet in elevation. They said that when they encountered it at, 10,000 feet, people were reporting, they would say it was from here to here.

And so they started doing, you know, these guys, you're scientists, they're doing calculations. And they said, based on the angles, it wasn't a mile wide. That thing was 10 miles wide. The pilots that came down, one of the airmen contacted the National UFO Reporting Center and spoke to Peter and said that one of the pilots was so shook up that he had to be carried out of the airplane after they landed. And he says, I'm telling you this now because they're going to lock down the base and they're going to tell everybody you can't talk about this. And so I don't want to be in violation orders. So I'm calling you now ahead of time. Yeah. It's like Independence Day. They saw a Star Destroyer.

Like Independence Day where these things roll out And they're like big as cities And they park over You know which of course is cinema That would be hard That would be like a scientist seeing a big foot That doesn't think that it exists And then you have a pilot seeing this massive

Huge crap Are they sending out these orbs you think? This is a Bose moment You're 10 boring blocks from home Until the beat drops in Bose clarity And the baseline transforms boring into maybe the best part of your day. Your life deserves music.

Your music deserves Bose. Find your perfect product at Bose.com. There could be motherships, and they've been reported in the past. The big UFO flap in the 60s, I think, or the late 50s, where the UFOs appeared over Washington, D.C. They were said to be coming out of a mothership that was off the East Coast.

So that was, that description came from a book called Shoot Them Down, where the military had active orders to shoot everything in the site that was in the air, shoot it down and see if we can capture it and get the technology. It's like War of the World. So, yeah, because these four alien children that go into this ball of light. So it has to be some kind of craft of kind. You can get inside of it and drive it around, obviously. Yeah.

But is the ball of light away for them to sort of go from point A to point B without being suspicious? Because a lot of people describe these balls of light right now, but they're also saying they're moving like UFOs. They're just like shooting up and they don't, you know, this whole drone thing is, only a part of the puzzle of what's happening on the East Coast. I just don't understand the orb thing. And people describe orbs with Bigfoot all the time. Right.

What is the connection between UFOs and creatures like Bigfoot? What we saw when we were doing the investigations, we're taking 60 to 70 investigations a year at its peak. And what we saw was that every time there were increases in Bigfoot sites, sightings, there were corresponding increases in UFO reports. And they would come in what the UFO community calls flaps, which is periods of time where there's greater sightings. And then there would be gaps where there would be nothing going on. And then all of a sudden a whole rash of sightings again.

And so we saw the correlates. responding links between Bigfoot sightings and UFOs. We even had one case where a Bigfoot showed up with the UFO and was, tell us to that story. What's that story? This happened up near Crown Point, New Mexico. A young man had brought a college professor home to see what Navajo life was like. there's a small group of houses.

And in these houses, you know, the reality is when you live out here, it takes maybe 10 years to get a home site lease. And you get a 99-year lease for your house, one acre plight. So you don't own it. But if you build within a quarter mile of a relative, you don't need a home site lease. So you'll see groups of houses cropping up together, and they're usually related family that live there.

So they're all at this little Hogan, and they hear coming up the canyon there where they live, what sounds like cannon fire just says, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, it has a staccato sound to it. Like there's just random sounds. And as it comes up to the canyon, they describe it as a disc. And it starts circling their little group of houses. So immediately everybody goes and runs inside because they're afraid of it.

They said that as this thing flew over the pinion juniper trees in the area, the trees would literally be pushed down like there was a force pushing them down and then they'd stand back up after the thing passed. So they're describing this. It's already getting dark. The thing obviously landed or let something out and they said that there's all these little green creatures that look like something out of a TV movie. running around. They're small. They're like these little gargoyles, I guess. You know, maybe about two, two and a half feet, three feet tall.

And they're scrambling. They're running over the roofs of houses. They're doing all kinds of stuff and everybody's locked in. And then a bigfoot showed up and they said that they saw the big foot. And it actually pushed on the door. And if you can imagine your front door, you know, just like out of a movie, something pushing at it from the outside and the door is bowling. So they were getting shook up. They called the state police, New Mexico State Police, who said, you know, that's not our jurisdiction.

They called the county. And they told them you need to call Navajo Police. They called Navajo Police. Navajo Police told them we don't have any officers that can respond to that right now. And so they call the fire department. Fire department actually responded. They got about a mile away and saw this craft circling and turned their fire truck around, shut the lights off, and went back.

So obviously there's something there. Obviously, a volunteer fire department, right? Is there a, yeah. We didn't sign up for this. You got to call the little gargoyle leprechaun department. They'll come out and handle it, you know? So one of the one of the relatives over there starts, grabs an AK-47 and just starts shooting.

Oh, yeah. And in the next morning, he's telling everybody, I think I hit one of them. So the next morning, of course, Navajo police finally shows up. state police showed up. They're all, you know, doing what officers do, stand around, smoke cigarettes, and, you know, talk in a group. Yeah. And they're just all standing there.

And the people report that a black Cadillac escalade with government plage showed up. And the guy that got out is wearing battle dress uniform. armed to the teeth, goes to the back of the vehicle, or he goes over and talks to the group of people, goes back to his vehicle, opens, you know, opens the rear hatch and takes what is described as an ice chest out of the back, goes out in the field maybe about 50 yards away, opens this ice chest up, and they said smoke came out of it. So that tells me something like dry ice. Yeah. Yeah. And pick something up off the ground, put it in the chest, closed it, goes back to the escalade, puts it back in the back, and then drives off.

Now, I've driven GSA vehicles, government service administration vehicles before. And I can tell you from personal experience, the government does not buy Cadillac escalates. They go with the lowest bidder. Right. So when you see a government vehicle, that's the absolute lowest bid that they could get on a vehicle. We've got four tourists this year. Come on, everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. The men in black have a little higher, higher budgets, what you're saying. So for this guy to be driving a Cadillac escalade tells me that it could have been one of of Bigelow's people that were out there. How do you think they hear about this? Maybe are they listened to scanners? I always wonder like how it seems when we have a lot of these stories like you're telling

and whether it be like a big-foot-it shot or there's some sort of encounter where there maybe is biologics. This is the word they use now in the oversight committee stuff that somehow these these unmarked vehicles show up and they recover the evidence. How do you think they know? Are they listening to police scanners? How do they find out about these things with enough urgency to get there? I don't know. I speculate that, yeah, they're monitoring everything. You know, we know that there are supercomputers out there. We know that the government monitors for certain words that are used,

involving explosives, involving plots, you know, different things like that. And so these computers actually have some sort of artificial intelligence where they're looking at all this stuff. So, you know, they pick up on these key words. And if UFO comes out, I'm pretty sure that, you know, it runs an algorithm and looks at it to see if it's something. In this case, Stan was assigned to investigate this case. And he went out there now. Understand that we actually know these guys, these officers that are out there.

A lot of them we've worked with before. We know a lot of them by name. And he went out there and none of the police officers would talk to him. I mean, just flat out, cool shoulder. And that was unusual. And he went to the fire department. The fire department personnel, same thing. They would not talk to anybody.

Yeah. And, you know, really, really weird. It's just like they were told, you know, you better keep your mouth shut or else. Someone got to him. And I've talked to an officer that was retiring back. This is 1983. I talked to an officer that said he saw a UFO go down in a canyon. And it looked like it might have been disabled in some way.

There were two small beings that were walking around outside of it. another UFO looked exactly like the first, at another disc, came down and picked up the two occupants and flew off shortly after the government came by with a low-boy trailer and a bunch of soldiers and loaded this thing up on the low-boy and covered it with a tarp and hauled it off. And they were told, you keep your mouth shut or something bad could happen to you or your family. Well, he told me he was ready to retire. And, you know, he told me that this happened about 1977, uh, between, between Pinyon and, um, and Chinle in one of the canyons up there. So,

you know, I have no reason to doubt him. You know, he's, he'd been doing his work for 20 plus years. How strategic are they in picking locations where maybe there's like, like you said that, one guy was living out there and he doesn't have any neighbors around. Is it very isolated places where they can do what they want to do? Because it doesn't sound like they want to be seen. And it seems like they're looking for something a lot. And they have a task and they're trying to perform that task. And they just want a minimal involvement with humans as possible.

Sometimes it's strange. They're like they don't care. And then other times it seems like they really care. What's your take on the stories? you've heard over the years and the locations and if there's there any connection to isolated areas. Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO

sees them, that's bulls bend. And marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions. I remember telling my boss it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't. Cut the bullspend. LinkedIn

lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com slash campaign, terms of conditions apply. The government itself has put information out there that there could be as many as 54 different species of alien. And, you know, I find that amazing. I mean, we usually only think of, you know, three or four, you know, Nordics and reptilians and you know, the grays and tall grays.

But the government has actually came out and said, yeah, there could be about 54 different species that we're dealing with. If you look at the new world back in 1492, when people started coming to the Americas, they came for a whole bunch of different reasons. Some came for potash. some came for mass timbers, some came for gold, silver, jewels, some came for tobacco, some came to spread religion. So you have all this stuff going on all at once. And I think that's what we're seeing with these extraterrestrial or interdimensional creatures coming, is that they're coming for different reasons.

And we can't put our finger on anyone and say, oh, this is it. that is just too hard to comprehend. John, can I just say maybe a real general question? Ranger on the Navajo Reservation for 30-ish years, right? Why do you think there's so much activity? You think is it the locale in the southwest, in your mind? Is it the fact that it's such a vast territory that you just sort of, by numbers, would have more weird things happen?

or do you think there's something associated with the reservation itself as far as Native Americans, which I don't, maybe there is more paranormal activity around reservations because Native Americans are there. What is your thought process? Because it's like you have this, even though it's 1% of your job, as you talked about, you have these wild stories that seem to, you know, happen more with more frequency or more often on the Navajo reservation. Have you thought about or do you have any sort of hypothesis on why that is and what's going on in that space? I think that there's a greater freedom out here for UFOs and any other species to come here because we have talked to Navajo families over and over and over and we asked them, why don't you report this to a group like Mufon, you know, mutual UFO now? network, you know, and have them do an investigation. And they tell us, and this isn't just one person, this is everybody tells us, if we report it, they will send a bunch of people up here.

They say bellegana, which means white person. A whole bunch of them will come up here. And they'll all stand in a big circle and whole hands and sing kumbaya. And these holy beings will no longer come here. And we don't want that because they consider them sky gods or holy people. The Navajo have a dance called a Yevichai dance. There's mass figures. They have a blackhead. You'll see a poster of it on Skinwalker.

ranch. And I told them that this is not a skin walker. This is, this is a holy person or a holy being called a Yebache. And they do a dance every winter. There's usually 10 or 12 of them. The last one in the line is always called a clown. He does everything wrong. He does everything backwards. He doesn't listen. He clowns around all the time. And in Navajo culture, the clown represents the five-fingered people. So he represents you and me. Because we don't listen. We don't listen to the teachings of the gods. We do our own thing. We get in trouble. We go our own way. and so that's a very elegant way of looking at it that, you know, these gods are trying to teach us things.

And we just, we would rather war with each other and have violence and rape and murder, you know, rather than listen to teachings that could actually benefit us. Yeah, it's wild. That's the feeling. Plus, There's a lot of empty land.

I mean, you know, we have 450,000 plus navvogs that live on, you know, 27,000 square miles. So there's a lot of areas where there's nothing out there. Houses might be miles apart from each other. And there's no, we don't have lighting. A lot of places don't have electricity. so it's it's pretty much dark all the time and you're able to to go out and look up if you live in the city you don't go outside and look up you know you're you're looking at what's going to come at you who's going to rob you or something right yeah yeah so you're you're looking around

you but you're never looking up well it seems like it seems like they're moving into the you know people are looking up now in the city is trying to figure out what the heck's going on and um i think it's become like um i'm talking about you're talking about you're talking about you're talking point amongst peoples, obviously since 2017 when we started talking about this in the public space. You know, this 54 different species is interesting to me. Do you think Bigfoot is on that list? Is Bigfoot a terrestrial creature or is the extraterrestrial? What do you think? My feeling is that he's interdimensional. And like I said, a lot of these things, UFOs, I think, are dimensional craft that are coming in.

I use the Hopi as an example. I really think that in times past, we were able to travel to different dimensions and visit other peoples. This would have been done by the priests or the religious leaders in each tribe. One of the first things that Spanish did in the 1600s when they came to the Pueblo's was to destroy the religious centers, which were the Kiva. and build their church on top of them. After that, they killed most of the priests that were doing a lot of this stuff. And so I think that knowledge was lost. Now, in the case of the Hopias, in the case of a lot of other public tribes, they have kachinas.

And everybody says, oh, these are representations of legends, you know, or stories. of these different gods. In the case of the Hopi, if you're going to collect kachinas, they have 240 different kachinas representing different gods. And if you had millennia

to travel an infinite number of dimensions, it's possible that you could come back with 240 different descriptions. of what you were seeing in these other places. And so we think that they had this contact. You look at the Skinwalker and he can run as fast as a vehicle. And we think that the way they travel vast distances is to slip into another dimension. And remember, dimensions are considered time as a dimension.

And if you can manipulate that timescape, you can slow time down, so to speak, for us and move very quickly, which is what has been described to us. I've interviewed people that were skinwalkers that used to be. And they tell me that when you affect the change into an animal, that your vision gets bled. and there's a red shift in the color spectrum, which indicates to me accelerated movement. Hmm. I see. Yeah, see you talk about that a bit.

I remember when we had our first interview, we did, you had one story about a skin walker that was a, a man turned to a coyote and it was shot, and then, of course, that man turns up at a hospital next day, and he's shot in the same spot. But are there any other skin walker encounter, you talk about interviewing them that you had on your 30 year tenure. And yeah, I mean, fascinating idea there, right?

Because when we talked about this before, there's a certain ritual that is done in order to become a skin walker to shape shift, right? Right. But does that, and you're talking about that in scientific terms, which I think is interesting. Like you have this sort of shift in the ability to maybe, maybe, manipulate time or dimensional intentionality. Obviously, if you're turned into an animal and that happens, something's going on. But what did what did you see in your tenure when it came to this, this, you know, really

enigmatic creature, shape shifter that, of course, everybody knows about now, Skinwalker Ranch and this thing. And I know a lot of nay peoples won't say them by name. But what other stories do you have encountering that kind of stuff on the reservation? Well, there's lots and lots of stories. In one of the episodes of Beyond Skinwalker, which is a spin-off of Skinwalker Ranch, the crew came out and we went out to a place where this woman had had encounters with skinwalkers.

The encounters got so bad. She was seeing deformed people walking upright. that just looked like they were melting. Animals coming by that were skin walkers. She was having polder guys activity in the house. In one case, this black figure, one of her son-in-laws was fighting with something in the room. I mean, it was an all-out fight.

And he came flying out the door and fell onto the floor. from the room. And she said when they looked inside, there was something of dark figures standing there and it had antlers, like a deer. And it jumped up through a hole in the ceiling and disappeared. Through the hole in the ceiling was one of these access hatches. So it jumped up into the attic and disappeared.

and she says that this poltergeist activity, piano's playing by themselves and things moving and Venetian blinds, you know, rattling and stuff like that. It got so bad. Her and her family literally picked up and moved out. I mean, right then, they didn't take anything with them. They left everything and they moved. They moved to Colorado and this thing followed them.

and kept torturing them. They moved to Phoenix, and it followed them there too. And she came to me. She was so desperate that somebody look into this and help her. And so we took it on as an investigation. As a result of that investigation, we found that there were two skin walkers involved. we actually encountered them during the filming. We saw one of them, but the film didn't pick it up.

But they were in the area around midnight. It was 15 degrees, so it was freezing. And we kept hearing these calls or hoots or whatever from two different directions. And we saw one of them standing on top of a mesa nearby that jumped down on the backside. What did it look like, John? In this case, we just saw the figure of a person, maybe 200 yards away. Okay. So we couldn't really tell.

And it being in the dark, and we focused a light on it. And that's all we could see. So we didn't get an accurate look at it, just a glimpse. But we knew something was there. Art Hardy was with me. He is a Navajo medicine man. and he said that that's what it was, was a skinwalker. As part of the investigation and looking into this thing,

I actually determined who these skin walkers were by identity. I mean, they're actual flesh and blood people. And I put word out in the community that if they continue to bother this family, that I was going to out them. to the community and let the whole community know who they were. And I happen to know both of them. And everything stopped. A month later, after the episode aired,

this lady came running up to me in Walmart, and she had the biggest smile on her face. And she says, everything stopped. I'm doing good. So, you know, there was something good that came out of that. John, why do you think, why do you think these two individuals were doing this? I mean, like, because there's targeted. Yeah, why do you think they were targeting this family?

What is the, if you will, like, what's the purpose of becoming a Skinwalker? Because it's like it's dark, it's dark arts, right? It's dark magic. It's this, I mean, I can't remember that. Maybe you could tell us last time what you have to, the process, I guess. Does you have to murder someone in your family or am I misremembering? Like, there has to be some sort of, like, there has to be some sort of, like, like blood sacrifice,

isn't there to be to get the ability to shape shift to become a skin walker? Yeah. You have to choose somebody who you love dearly to be sacrificed, to be killed, uh, for you to, uh, attain this type of power.

And then you're brought in to basically, uh, you call it a coven or a group of people that practice this and they will teach you, um, how to affect, you know, just affecting,

the physical change into an animal is where it starts. But there's more. It goes into poisons. It goes into how to do curses and plague people. Sounds like witchcraft. You know, yeah, witchcraft, basically. But, you know, we're not talking about the witches that we know about. We're talking about Navajo witchcraft.

And it gets, it gets into what is classified as frenzy witchcraft, which is a very serious thing, because now you're concocting poisons to blow at people that can kill them without, and doctors don't know what it is. They don't know how to treat it. They don't know the first thing about it. They can't even diagnose it. But medicine men are able to cure it. I had a grandfather. who was trained to be a medicine man later on became a preacher. And he told me that when you're taught as a medicine man, you're taught everything. You're taught even the dark stuff.

And he says, you have to know that stuff in order to affect the cures. Because if you don't know what the witch is doing, you don't have any basis to affect a cure for that. person. If you get outed as a skin walker, as you threaten these individuals to do, what does the community do? Do they kill that person? They respond by, or do they, what happens? In Navajo culture, it has said that if you find out the identity of one, go there and knock on their door and tell them, I know who and what you are, that within three days, they will die suddenly. So they try to keep that, you know, like a superhuman. You know, you have to keep your identity secret.

If anybody knows who you are, you're going to die. And I have actually seen that happen in two cases where people that were suspected of being skin walkers passed away suddenly. No discernible reason. They just died. They were outed. Is that? Yeah. Somebody discovered who they were.

Is it like, you know, those stories of were like, there's certain time they turn into an animal? Like, what is the rinkable? ratio between, do you know more about how they transform into a creature and then when they're a human being? It's my understanding that they have a whole ceremony, that they do singing, they do chants, they have to have the skin of an animal that they're going to change into, usually a coyote skin. We think that they're using the DNA out of the skin. So we're not talking about chemical processed skins.

We're talking about, you know, just skin it off the animal and tan it and dry it and make it supple and then carry it with you. So we've been told that they can change into birds, into ravens, into owls. They can change into different types of animals, bears, deer, what have you. Depends on what you have the skin. And they can change into people that look like you and me. And if they get your DNA, they can change into somebody that looks just like you. That's terrifying.

That's wow. I mean, we've had a couple stories of that. They actually had some people email some stories where they were. reported in two places at once and I wonder if there was something like that going on where you know and just a lot of I think these stories are important because a lot of connection between like UFO sightings and government showing up or you know people seeing these skin walkers walking around or people saying I wasn't there but I was there people saying there's time slippage like a UFO showed up and then I can remember where I was and then suddenly I'm at my house

or suddenly we're like, and we're driving the wrong direction, or, you know, I lost four hours. I don't know where they went. I went from point A to point B. I don't know how I got there. I got there in a few minutes. So many strange things that like all kind of tie together where there seems to be a body of knowledge that they're operating on that we don't, we're sort of going on our merry way and have no idea, you know?

It's a different physics that we're talking about. You know, we've looked at physics and we said, okay, this is it. This is canon. And this is all there is. And yet we see UFOs. We see these other technology that's controlled with the mind. And we're just barely taking baby steps in that direction and haven't gotten there yet. Let me see.

It's 30 years. You're dealing with skin walkers and UFOs and big. was did you ever, aside from the time that the orb followed you home, were the other times you really felt like you feared for your own safety? Like your life might be on the line because of the work you're doing, investigating these things? In taking Skinwalker cases, you have to be very, very guarded. And, you know, I'm born again Christian, so I have my faith.

On top of that, I smudge myself and use different. Navajo things like bitter medicine and lightning-struck tree medicine and things like Pat. It's all put together and the intent is there. So I do pray and I've been protected. But for Stan, he's been attacked. He's been psychically attacked. He told me one time it was like somebody He was stabbing him in the back with a knife and twisting it. And then they took that invisible knife and stabbed him in the back of the head and just twisted it around. And he was literally dying. I mean, he was out of it, hurting so bad.

And we had a friend that was a psychic healer. And the friend decided to work on him and brought him out of it. And so they've had quite the relationship ever since where the friend will get contacted and he'll do remote healing for him. We had a situation in 2016 where we spoke up in Oregon at McMinnville. And we spoke there about Skinwalkers for the very first time. When we came back the very next weekend, between Stan and my families, there were. nine near intersection accidents or head-on collisions that occurred in our families just over one weekend. Stan almost got hit head-on by another vehicle, and I got run off the road by an 18-wheeler.

Wow. Did you attribute that protection to your faith, like the fact that God's protecting you from... Yeah. I rely on that. Yeah. Where was your faith when you started your country? career. It was the same. Okay. You know, I was raised in church and, you know, similar to what you would call Baptist denomination, but it was inter-denominational. And then I studied for two and a half

years Bible school. Okay. So, you know, I do have a background in religious studies, I guess, is what you could call it. You are like a Swiss Army knife, John. You're our favorite. You're a favorite person. Yeah, you are. That's what we do on our show all the time is sort of marry these paranormal

ideas with our faith and trying to figure out where they intersect and how we can make more sense of them. And I love that you're not afraid of these topics because I think a lot of people will explain away everything, but you seem to hold that. Did you pray for a lot of people when you were there on site? Did you have those conversations with people

when they were spooked? No, we just talked to them. We try to give them direction as to what they can do. A lot of times just being there and listening to them helps. We've had people come to us in tears after we spoke and told us that just by speaking about these subjects and bringing them out, they were able to talk to their families. and tell them about encounters that they've had when they were children. And it's like this big emotional release that you see. We saw a 90-year-old woman tell her kids, her grandkids, and her great-grandkids about experiences she had when she was a little girl. And she had tears running down her face, you know, thanking us and hugging us. And her family was just standing there with their jaws on the floor because she had never

told anybody these stories. Yeah, it's amazing. You give people permission to believe what they've seen. Yeah. And that you believe them. And I think there's healing in that, right? There's just, it's not a, I think so, like, you know, you walked in this,

but like I think so many people compartmentalize the weird things that happened to them when they put them away. Because it's easier to do that than to deal with it, right? But if you just let you tell them, I believe you, I'll listen to you with your story. Like, it's permission for them to accept that, oh man, You know, maybe I'm, it's not me.

I'm not a weirdo. This has actually happened. And I can deal with this now. You're like, you're a part-time ranger, part-time counselor, right? You're just helping people realize it's like, it's okay. What you saw is real, you know? What happened to you is real. Like this is, I've seen this.

And there's so much power, I think, in that. I'm going to get really controversial here. Believe it or not, both me and Stan truly believe that the job of a law enforcement officer is to help people. Yeah. So that said, it's not about, oh, I got a gun. I can shoot you. You know, I have all these, you know, I can beat you to death with a baton or pepper spray you.

It has nothing to do with that. That's just authority. And that authority is only as strong as the government behind it. Right. You know, you don't have personal power. You know, the old. commercial of the Volkswagen, they all look the same from the bottom up, you know. Volkswagen's going to run over you and you're going to see the bottom.

So you don't have personal power. You have that delegated authority by the government to do what you're doing. And when I used to stop people for speeding, I'd explain to them, you're out here in the middle of nowhere. If you run off the road and crash, it's going to be an hour before an hour. ambulance can get to you. So, you know, I'm just looking for your voluntary compliance to slow down. And if I can get that, I'll have done my job. Yeah. John, do you, do you have any stories of people having these experiences and then finding faith, like figuring out maybe there is a one above all of this, um, encounters with Christ or

anything like that? For most people that we talk to, a lot of them are, traditional. And they, it's just an affirmation for them that the, the holy beings are still there. For Christians, it seems like there's, there's a disconnect. Because if you talk about that kind of stuff in church, well, that's demonic. That's, that's something that you should stay away from. Don't even talk about it. Don't go near it. if it's happening to you, then, you know, what are you going to do? You just button it up and all that stress builds up and, you know, you feel like you're going crazy or why are these demons after you?

Right. On the demonic side, what we do advertise or what we do talk about is we tell people, don't let your kids play with Ouija boards. I don't know if you know this, but the Ouija board, was actually the what was that famous movie with the girl her head was spinning around the exorcist yeah that whole story actually started because of a Ouija board not surprised in reality and every young person that we talked to has told us that a Ouija board has ruined their life and they wish they had never seen it.

I've never heard a story that said, oh, yeah, we have a Ouija board and it's great. Yeah. So one of the things that we tell people is don't use these things because we've been told that a Ouija board is actually an unfiltered portal. And you open that portal up, you don't know what's going to come through. It might be something fairly innocent or it could be something really scary. And once you let it out, you can't close that door. I think there's probably more ways that they're figuring out

to get these portals into people's hands. And obviously, that's what we find in our show, too, is that there is this disconnect with Christians who seem to be afraid to talk about this stuff, seem to be afraid to name it and have a discussion that's difficult, right? That we don't know a lot. And for some reason, I don't know why the church has sort of put a lid on a lot of those conversations. And I think that's what we try to talk about them here is, you know, it exposes that, exposes the darkness.

And you were kind of hinting at that earlier when you were talking about the medicine man, is that he needed to know so he could help people, right? And I think in some ways, people need to understand this whole kingdom of darkness if they're going to fight against it, right? They're going to do anything about it, that it's after you. It's going to get you. And you could stumble into it accidentally because of naivity. You just make a naive decision and then you fall into it, you know?

And I think that more context, more knowledge isn't a bad thing. But for some reason, the church seems to paint it that way, you know? If you know that it. The church, organized religion, okay? I'm not talking about individual faith. I'm talking about the big church. You run into this situation where, well, I'm this denomination. And if you're a different denomination, you're a heretic.

Or, you know, you're going to hell. My way is the only way. You know, we look at it as, good energy, you know, positive energy and negative energy. And there has, they have to coexist. Really. You know, you can't have one and not have the other. You're going to make a Star Wars reference.

You know, you have the force and you have the evil side. And the thing is, is that they both, In order to have that yin and yang, that balance in nature, you have to have both of them. And it's up to you to make a conscious decision of what you're going to do. In Navajo, they have, you know, something called K or, you know, this idea of Hojo, which is balance. And you're trying to live in a balanced life. You understand that there's bad things out there. you have the responsibility of deciding for yourself which direction you're going to go and to keep that in balance.

In religious studies, you try to have so much faith that there's no chance that the evil is going to come up against you. And we do this in semantics. We have names for it. So we say demons and the devil. And, you know, demons, they're not little red things running around the landscape with little horns and tails and pitchforks. They are fallen angels that look just like a regular angel. And they're strong. They're powerful.

And they can appear as angels of light when they're actually. demonic in nature. Yeah. So there's room for a lot of confusion, and you can go down the wrong rabbit hole and end up somewhere that you don't want to be. Yeah, in the wrong portal, if you will, John. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many of those conversations we have on our, and a lot of people come out of

those things. And when you give them a context and more clues of, hey, that's probably not a good thing, you know. And it's hard because humans are impressionable, and we listen to things. and if it feels good, we go with it, right? And as we know, that there are a lot of ways that we can be manipulated, especially those who are more empathetic.

You can, all these good parts of us can be easily hijacked. So, John, thank you for coming back on our show. Thanks for coming back on Blurred Creatures and talking about this. We'll have to do this again. Hopefully in person. Yeah, there's so much more. We'd love that. Especially when your book comes out, John,

you have to come back and sit with us here. We can talk about the book and dump. and jump into this so much more, but grateful for your time. This is fun to do it the second time. Of course, I'm the biggest fan of our first episode in those stories. And I love hearing about your work and then how the intersection between your faith and your work, I think is really the fascinating juxtaposition of your life story. And we're grateful.

So thanks so much. And looking forward to the book. And let our folks know if there are somewhere they can interact with what you're doing, maybe when your book may come out, if they want to see how the places you've been doing interviews, et cetera. And your podcast, yeah. Yeah. Dan's book is the paranormal ranger. And my book is still in the works.

And then our podcast is native paranormal crossroads featuring the paranormal rangers. Well, thanks, John. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me again. Yeah. Great to see you. Yeah.

Thanks for being a guest and coming back. and we'll do it again. I know we will. And I appreciate you being honest and vulnerable about your faith and where it all ties in and just your whole career. And we need more people like that in this space. Especially with all the weird stuff coming down the pipe, we need more and more Christians.

You've had experience with these things to kind of give it sort of more context so people can have a better interpretation of what's happening and not be afraid and not come up with their own conclusions and come up with a while. ideas of what's happening. But we'll talk soon, John. Thanks, thanks again.

Okay, thanks. Good to see you. Have a good one.