Blurry Creatures - EP 308 Defeating Darkness with John Eldredge

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

What if the darkness in your life isn’t just personal—but generational? Bestselling author John Eldredge joins the show to talk about breaking family curses, defeating darkness, and rediscovering the childlike faith that sets captives free. From spiritual warfare to healing deep seeded trauma, this episode is a call to arms—and in a way a call back home. Are you ready to reclaim the freedom that was always meant to be yours? 👕 Merch from "Blurry Creatures" https://www.blurrycreatures.com/store Become a member! https://blurrycreatures.supercast.com Full Episode Here: https://youtu.be/DuMMqlb53H0 Get our Book of Enoch! https://amzn.to/4gpV4yZ Listen to Blurry Creatures: Apple Podcasts:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/blurry-creatures/id1526885135 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPilMKgeZRAJ2AVwSdFRL?si=f42b58855ac7417e Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Pqrl9X... Website: blurrycreatures.com Blurry Creatures Socials https://www.tiktok.com/@blurrycreatures https://www.instagram.com/blurrycreatures https://www.facebook.com/blurrycreatures/ https://www.twitter.com/blurrycreatures/ Special Thanks for Platinum Members! Joshua Drummond Maureen Munoz Amber Freeman Nicolle Benz Zach Mills Adam Dougherty Desiree Nichols Kate Logan Kimberly Lee Fayola Shakes Suzanna Wenzel Kent Denmark Michelle Watkins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. And so the mystics and the saints of ages past would say, no, no, no, the communion is first an inner communion. And you learn to hear his voice. You learn to recognize his presence with you, within you. And then the intimacy of that is the doorway into the unseen realm.

Then he can show you things, you know, kind of explain how things operate, help you deal with dark things that are showing up. And you are retraining your soul to be able to pay attention to the presence of God in the room with you, but most especially within you. And the things he's wanting to address, this is exquisite intimacy. But like anything else in life, you know, playing, you know, tennis or learning the guitar, you have to practice it. And then, man, like, God is all over it. It's not like he's trying to play hard to get.

It's just that we've all been on our phones. Jesus, for most people, is the blurriest creature of all. Like, no experience, not sure how to tap into him, don't hear his voice. What? You know, yeah, he's kind of like this wispy thing off in the corner. And like, that's not okay. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. Enjoy to church.

The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen church. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to Blurry Creatures.

You know, we say it all the time on the show. That's wild when we hear something bizarre. But today we got the guy who wrote the book on Wild, Wild at Heart. John Eldridge is coming on Blurray Creatures to talk about his new book, which is a little bit into the dive into the Unseen Realm and talks about a lot of these things. And it's had a blurry life. Started out in the spaces. Talks a lot about like his own beginnings and the new age and all the weird stuff.

He said he opened the door to things he didn't want to see. And then he knew it was real, which is a lot of what this podcast does is kind of showcases that, yeah, this stuff that we all think is conspiracy theory or part of Hollywood is actually true. And what do you do with it? How do you think about it correctly and also how do you get set free from it? This is exciting. This is John is Seminoles. We talked with in the episode from me. And I just love how he approaches these topics and then also gives us very simple about.

I think profound, you know, takeaways and practicums for this, for this space. And John is a deep thinker. He's 10,000 hours into, into his, his own practice when it comes to being a therapist and also writing on these profound topics. And I would an honor to have John Eldridge on, excited to get him on the show. I know. Yeah.

Take you back to 2001, back when you were just a young, young camp kid, trying to figure out what it means to be a man or a woman or a woman yeah true actually but it was like a it was like a dude's book at the old well I think that's why his wife came out with captivating which was the women's version of oh yeah yeah but if you want to become a member of this podcast and help support and produce the show blurrycreatures.com slash members and also we got a bunch of merch click the link below and help support the podcast that way too and we're going to start doing after shows for members and trying to get extra time with our guests. So lots of reasons to become a member,

not only to get tickets, discounts on merch, and other things, lots of cool things happening in the blurry verse behind the scenes. So blurrycreatures.com slash members. Let's get John on this one. I'm excited. All right, welcome back to Blurry Creatures. We are excited today of John Eldridge in the house.

You are a bestselling author, storyteller, and you help guide the untamed soul. You're joining us today. All of us Christian kids, I remember I was at camp when Wild at Heart came out, caused some controversy amongst the West Coast ladies and the staff lounge. But that's another story. But deep mysteries about walking with God. And John, we kick off our show asking this question.

We've asked everyone from Dr. Michael Heiser to some of the stranger interviews we've done. I think he's the most wild at heart creature, Bigfoot. John, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Do you have an experience? Do you know someone who has? I mean, you've been out in the woods a lot. Yeah. There's got to be a story.

I, yep, spent a lifetime in the woods, a lot of that time in the twilight hours, right? Silent bow hunting and, yeah, rafted a lot of rivers and scaled a lot of high things. I've never run into him, fellas. He might have been there. You just didn't see him, you know? Yeah, been out there. I've actually run into several angels out there. Oh, really? Yeah, oh, yeah.

Well, here we go. And you had a new book coming out, Experience Jesus, really. And it's all about the Unseen Realm, which is stuff we talk about on our podcast. So we're excited that's coming out soon. But you left us hang. Do you want to tell, quickly start with that angel story? You didn't see Bigfoot, but you saw an angel. And this goes, yeah, this will walk us into our conversation today. Well, because I think it's the same, you know, people like who have, you know, report experiences with different things in the unseen realm. Yeah.

You run into an angel, like the scriptural record's pretty right on in terms of, whoa. You know, multiple's reaction is, whoa. Beautiful, stern, armed, always armed, which is a really fascinating thing. Why are these guys always armed? And what do you mean by armed? Like swords, swords? Yeah, swords, bows, spears, yeah. All three, yeah.

Wow. No ARs? Nothing, nothing like, nothing like, yeah, not that I've seen yet. So wait, so I guess set up the scene here, you're camping or you're out in the woods and this, how does it appear to you? Oh, gosh. We've had a lot of really dangerous experiences, you know, bush planes that almost went down and experiencing, you know, experiencing, you know, it was just no question, last minute rescues, rafts that flip, my wife almost drowned. And yeah, yep, there have been moments where we could see that help was coming to us from the heavens.

Actually, it's interesting. The very first angel I ran into was not in the woods. It was right outside Westminster Cathedral in England. Wow. And it was the guardian angel. of the cathedral. And I was walking in and I turned to the side and whoa, there he is and they're big and they're impressive. And he just nods at me. What does he look like, John? Yeah. Well, you know, most of the classic contemporary arts pretty right on just in terms of

regal, massive wings, stern but kind faces. Like they're not, like they're not hostile, but they're also fascinatingly kind of indifferent to you as well. Maybe they don't know you can see them, you know? Oh, they do. They know when you see them. Oh, they know when you see them. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they'll acknowledge your presence. Yeah. You get like a head nod, John, like a what's up? Exactly. No worry. That's exactly. That's awesome. Yeah. So just a handful of these experiences then. Yeah. Uh-huh. And they do have wings because that's a They do.

Interesting. You think all angels have wings or just certain ones? Well, okay, so we're getting deep into the woods. We are in the weeds already. It depends on what, so there's different types of angelic beings, right? You've got seraphs and caribem and different heavenly beings. You have archangels and regular angels. You have principalities.

and it depends on what their purpose is in the moment. Because Paul says, hey, you know, you could entertain angels without knowing it. So they will appear to like human beings. He talks about entertaining strangers, right? And you might entertain an angel without knowing it. So it depends on what their mission is and what their particular relationship is to you in the moment. So your new book is very much about the supernatural. Can you talk about this?

Because by the time this comes out, our episode drops, your book will be out. It's out next week as we're recording now. But talk about why you wrote this last one. We kind of kicked off our pre-roll John talking about wild it hard. As Nate and I both had these experiences as young men reading that book. Oh, yeah. And it's just being, you know, I would say seminal for me, you know, particularly.

Refinding and re-understanding, re-understanding, re-grasping, you know, the elements of masculinity and being a man and understanding with those things. Especially when I'm in my early 20s at this time, really walking in that space. And so, but this is a different book. You maybe have seen the Barnard data. They did a longitudinal study over 20 years. And they tried to identify people who took faith somewhat seriously. Like, I read the Bible.

I go to church. I say my prayers. And what they discover is that in the last 20 years, 50% have left the faith. 50% have walked away. And you've probably seen different data on that. And you know these people, right? You know friends and colleagues and loved ones and people that used to go to your church. And they just kind of off the radar now.

And I have a long, long, long career as a therapist. I've talked to a lot of those people. And most of it is out of heartbreak. and disappointment and the lack of a real, like, existential, ontological experiences with God. You know, like I prayed, nothing happened. I cried out, and he didn't come. And that's not okay to me. Like, that, the deep experiential nature of all that the Christian faiths.

offers all of the unseen realm, good and bad, and how you deal with the bad and how you enjoy the good and all that. Like, folks, this was normal prior to the Enlightenment, really, and to the age of reason. And I sat with enough of the heartbreak to go. There is a way, you need spiritual fathers and mothers to show you the way back into that life. So I took a big risk in writing this book to share a lot of our personal. stories to share a lot of what we have come to know very deeply about the existential, ontological, you know, real experiences of the presence of God. And then the wild beauty of his kingdom, right? It's a wild place. Do you think that, you know, the last couple of years

that people are coming back and like people are waking up to a lot of that there is a spiritual realm. This story is serious. Here's a fascinating thing. So the number one growth group in the Eastern Orthodox Church are young, single men. There is a craving. There is an ache for something more transcendent, you know, for a re-enchanted worldview, which is a lot of what you guys talk about, right? Like a re-enchanted worldview, a reimagined worldview. that is richly shaped, right, by the, you know, Hebraic and then the Christian tradition. Yeah, that's going on. Here's the problem, guys.

There is a spiritual awakening going on in the world. It's taking place on all fronts. Yeah. So you've got, you know, Wicca and stuff or fastest growing, you know, faith movements in America. You go, whoa, like, people are opening all the doors. And you've got to be real careful with it. that, you know, the old Rocky Bullwinkle thing of, you know, be really careful of what you pull out of that hat. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like the church often is the last, the last group of people who

will talk about these things, right? Yeah. Oh, totally. And I think that's a big part of why our podcast kind of got shoved into some of these places that we didn't expect it to go. We were going to talk about Bigfoot stories and all of a sudden these Christians were coming on. Like, finally somebody will listen to my crazy story about how it ties into my theology. And then all of a sudden we're like interviewing people about all kinds of fascinating theological topics that we never set out to do. And then people are emailing us. I've been in the church my whole life and I'm finally understanding things. And I'm like, and so for us, it's more awareness.

We're creating awareness that, hey, your favorite theologian had a strange experience. And they don't talk about that on study. But they're welcome to talk about it here. So I would say that things like ancient aliens and some of these other movements, what we feel compelled to do is kind of give them more of a biblical understanding of, okay, if aliens are out there and this is happening, this is how it could fit into the biblical story. And people are hungry for that, John. They want to know. They want to learn. And I think we're step one.

And like, we're not, you know, we're not the truth bringers. We just connect people who've had the experiences, who've written the books to the audience of hungry and crazy. for more truth, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I think especially now to, because I call it being amphibious. Every human being has an amphibious nature. You know, you are created for the world of coffee and bikes and friends and dinner and to enjoy that richly. You're created for the outdoors and to enjoy it that richly.

But you are an amphibian. You are also created to live and move comfortably in the unseen realm. and we just haven't had training. Yeah. You know, in the last several hundred years, in the developed world, especially, like, you guys know this. Like, you don't have to convince people of this who are dealing with foul spirits in South America. You know, those folks don't need any convincing. They want to know, where's the relief?

Like, what do I do? Yeah, what do we do with this stuff when it shows up? And that used to be, right? and like, you know, Father Carlos Martin and others are, you know, kind of uncovering the history, but that used to be a really, really rich part of just what we would call Christian discipleship. Like, oh, yeah, and here's what you do with this, and here's how you commune with God. You know, there's the whole good side of it, too. But guys, like, here's the thing that is so frustrating.

Jesus, for most people, is the blurriest creature of all. Let's go. like no experience not sure how to tap into him don't hear his voice what you know he yeah yeah he's kind of this wispy thing off in the corner and like that's not okay that's not okay man john so i know you talked about like you're saying this this is the good aspect right of and then there's the bad i want to get into the good a bit because you said before we're a pre-roll you said that you wanted to call this book initially but it's not not the title like ordinary mystic And in your mind, writing this book, how should we engage in the unseen realm?

How should we as Christians sort of unlock that aspect? Because you're right on. This is what we've talked about on the show for a long time is that you get into the West. It's very much an anomaly. We have a luxury here to believe in nothing. A lot of skepticism, right? Which is crazy to anybody who's not in the West. Nileism and atheism.

You could believe in nothing? As we kind of unpacked that with guys like Dr. Michael Heiser and in some of these, and some other theologians, it's like the ancient Near Easterns, the Hebraic religion, they didn't have this separation. There was no separation. It was reality. Yeah. So what does that look like then? Yeah, what do you do? Yeah, what do you do? What are the practicums here for? Wow. Okay. Yeah. So you understand that's like a huge question. That's like that. I know it is. I mean, take that where you want. You know, we trust you with that. Take it where you want. Yeah. I think that and again, as part of what,

It was the barrenness of my own experiences of God that drove me into reading some of the lives of the saints. You read, like, Athanasius on St. Anthony. St. Anthony, the founder of monasticism, that guy's life was wild, man. He had angels showing up, demons showing up. He communed with God. What do you do? I think it begins with practicing the presence of God as the Karnelike Pryor, Brother Lawrence would talk about it.

It's very doable. It's not as inaccessible as people think it is. So here's the mind-blowing thing, is that because of your amphibious nature, it is actually quite easy to practice the presence of God. It is easy to tune into. And the real mindblower is for those who have given any sort of yes to Jesus Christ, he now dwells inside of you. And so the mystics and the saints of ages past would say,

no, no, no, the communion is first an inner communion. And you learn to hear his voice. You learn to recognize his presence with you, within you. And then the intimacy of that is the doorway into the unseen realm. Then he can show you things, you know, kind of explain how things operate, help you deal with dark things that are showing up, but that the epicensor. And this is what people are aching for ultimately.

It is that ontological existential union with the living God in your inner being. That's the good stuff. and we can talk about how to do that because we got plenty of time today but I would say it starts there. Yeah, that's wasn't asking. It's like how do you begin that practicum like on a daily?

How do you practice that? Because this is, I mean, there are so many books out there. I know you've written a book on this. Like that, and I think this ties into what you said before and what we've been talking about is I think the reason that the things like the New Age and Wicca are exploding is that it's a quick plug-in to a supernatural or spiritual experience.

It's the same idea with like psychedelics and DMT, right? Well, it's like a knockoff version. It's an easy button to have an experience. And, you know, as Christians, we're not, we're given a very, a very, there's guardrails. It's a very, a very specific way by which we do that. We talk a lot about how like the gods of Egypt were real, you know. They had, they had powers. They did stuff.

They were, they were luring. Yeah. And Christians, you know, grow up, don't, don't think that it's real or we're taught that it's not real. we're taught this sort of black and white version of the spiritual realm. And like when Heiser came on our show the first time, I asked him a basic question like I asked you. And he said, God has a family and he wants you to be a part of it. And for some reason, when we talk about the blurry creatures and we lay them out and we kind of have like a chart of all the different beings,

then you see Jesus at the top and he has a father and there's a family. You're like, I get it now. Yeah. I get it now. And that, I think that's a big part of what we do is we, we outline the different characters. Yeah, it's beautiful, guys. Yeah, that's really good. To the earlier question of like how the war right now, the war is for your attention. And like Nicholas Carr's book on the internet, the shallows, he almost won the Pulitzer for it. Like the internet has literally rewired your brain to be a very impatient. being. And you flit and your attention, you know, just is easily distracted to some of the first

steps towards the, the existential, ontological experience of Jesus really, like actually his presence, his voice, his love. And frankly, where I got into this guy is the reason that we really chase this heart is the healing of human trauma because you can't tell that little boy who is being trafficked to motel rooms in Chiang Mai, hey, if you can get $10,000 and you can get to a U.S. therapist, you can be healed. Like, that is jacked. Yeah. Yes, the soul is actually healed through union with Christ, actually healed. And we've done so much work with trauma. We've done so much work with people in all levels of fragmentation, that helping people experience Christ in them coming into the trauma. It's one of the most beautiful, exquisite things

I've ever seen. Every time it happens, it just, it's, it is awe and wonder. It's the very thing the transcendence that people are looking for. Well, to get there, you have to get your attention back. In other words, you have to have a space in your life every day that is your sacred space. And there's no technology and there's no interruptions. And you are retraining your soul to be able to pay attention to the presence of God in the room with you, but most especially within you. And the things he's wanting to address. things he's wanting to address. This is exquisite intimacy, but like anything else in life, you know, playing, you know, tennis

or learning the guitar, you have to practice it and you have to commit yourself to it, to a sacred space and a sacred communion. And then, man, like, God is all over it. It's not like he's trying to play hard to get. It's just that we've all been on our phones. Do you think some Christians are afraid of that? 100%. Why?

Yeah, of course you. Well, first off, because the presence of God is unnerving, right? Just like I was saying, the presence of angels is unnerving. Because it is out of your control. And we have placed a lot of capital on control. I mean, guys, seriously, you don't like the weather. You just get to walk over to the wall and go, do, do, do, and change the climate in your house. Like, you know, we have a staggering level of supposed control over our lives.

And when you step into the presence of the living God, you do have to relinquish that control. And yeah, that's unnerving. And when you do that, what do you think happens? Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

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Heads nod, feet tap, one person dances than everyone does. Awkward becomes electric. When Bose sound fills the room, you don't just hear the music. You feel it. Your life deserves music. Your music. Your music, deserves Bose. Find your perfect product at bows.com. When you start to open yourself up to God in that way, well, part of part of what happens is you realize how shallow the rest of your life has been. And I think that's part of the unnerving. I think the false self is just suddenly like, you know, you're so aware of your false self. But also, guys, we're also talking about being in the presence of the one who created waterfalls, right? And the Sahara and just a gorgeous,

exquisite beauty. Like, his presence is kind. His presence is creative. It's loving. And so there is this sort of push me, pull you experience of, whoa, I don't want to be out of control, but also, I am so drawn. So the old saints, the word for it was, they called it sucker. and consolation. So to be like Thomas Acempus, right, the Dutch priest, 1500s who wrote The Imitation of Christ, which at one time was the most published book in the world next to the Bible.

And Accompos says this, he says, his visits, talking about Jesus, his visits with the inward man are frequent. And he says his consolation is sweet. Like there, it is the care of the soul. And so there is this, whoa, I'm a little bit out of my, I'm in the depths, you know, but it's also so consoling. Well, we're California kids and, you know, obviously the hippies will say, well, how do you know you're not falling into the hippie waterfall and you're falling into God's

waterfall? Like, well, how do you know the difference? Because there's a lot of meditation, yoga movements, all that stuff that people are saying the same things. They're having, oh, I feel this love, you know. Yes. And it's like, well, what's the difference? There's two thoughts I have that some people who come out of the new age are super afraid of having an experience with God that feels like the new age. Yep. And so they attack us constantly. Like, oh, blurries, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, there's some spiritual maturity to know the difference to test the spirits. Yep. Those things. Yeah, that's right. Test the spirits. We can get into that. We should get into that. Yeah, yeah. But let me come back to. But see, guys, it's the same thing with human sexuality.

Just because people really mess it up and just because it has been a place of actually deep harm for a lot of people, you don't throw it away. Right? There is a wildness to human sexuality. There is an intimacy and an ecstasy to it from the living God. And this is exactly how the kingdom of darkness works. Harm people in the very place of the good stuff, right? And then they don't want anything to do with the good stuff, right? So, yeah, they get, you know, I mean, I did the whole thing, guys.

We should go back a little bit into my story because I did the LSD. We used to eat peyote and go out in the desert and look for God. And this is how I came to Christ was because I opened the door into the Unseen realm, man, and I found the kingdom of darkness. I saw people get possessed. I saw my best friend get possessed because we were out there eating mushrooms in the desert. And the foul spirits will walk through any door you open, man. These guys are freaking terrorists. And I realized that night, I'm like, fully smokes. We found the unseen realm, but this isn't what I was looking for. That was the moment the Jesus Revolution was going on in Southern California. Okay.

So I'm SoCal as well, right? A little bit ahead of you guys. A little bit pre-date you guys a little bit. And my encounter with Christ was very much like what the Muslims are experiencing in these dramatic conversion experiences. Jesus just walked into my room one night. Now, I didn't see his visual, but I felt his presence. Like, it was unmistakable. And because I was aware of the dark side of the unseen realm, I'm like, that's God.

That's goodness, that's truth. There was conviction of sin. And there was also comfort and consolation all in the same moment. What I'm trying to say is that, yes, the New Ages, I was there. I experienced that stuff. Of course, there's a danger to any sort of experiential-based worldview. you, but just like with sexuality, you can't throw it out because it's dangerous. God is dangerous.

His kingdom is wildly dangerous. I love when it's framed like that, John, because I think that, you know, as we kind of touch on the beginning, a lot of people, the last place they're looking for for a spiritual experiences is in the Western Church right now. And yet the juxtaposition of that is that, as you put, and I guess what attracted, even me as a young man, a wild at heart, was this idea that God is, the kingdom of God is advancing violently,

is what the Bible says. Like, how do we put that in a box that, with a church that is in some ways neutered? And this is a broad brush. There's a lot of amazing churches that are seeing God move, you know, in the unseen realm, in a supernatural way. But I just, I think that's such an important juxtaposition.

Yeah, your experiences. Yeah. Yes. It's just like nature, right? I was walking in the woods yesterday, and I was just reflecting on it is a wildly complex world. And there are plants out there that will literally heal your cancer. There are things that Papa has built into the world and mushrooms that are that are helping heal people's trauma. Yep, that's built in there.

But right next to it is a plant that'll kill you. Yeah. And what, and again, this is part of our, because of our separation from the natural world and most people like the comfort of, you know, their phone, their car, their door dash, you know, they've not been educated into, you are a very sophisticated amphibian designed to navigate a very complex universe that's full of beauty and wonder and danger. don't let that freak you out. Every story and movie you love, that's the basic plot line. Yeah. Jump into the story, folks. It's an epic story.

I think sometimes we put a very black and white, fear-based version of God on him. But like you said, he created this whole realm of sexuality for us. And then the bootleg version or the two-second version kind of gets in between building actual like lifelong intimacy with somebody. Yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of people come back to Christ because they, like, they did what, they had your story. They looked into the, they opened the Narnia and it's like, I'm in the wrong place here.

I do not want to go back there. Yes. The dark version, right? Yeah. They walked into the wrong wardrobe. Yep. And so what is your transition out of that then? when you have this knowledge and then you said Jesus appears to you, then how does your walk

with God change from that point? Well, again, God gave me a great grace through that experience because I was already tuned to accept the unseen realm, right? And I was already tuned to accept kind of the rich complexity of it. But I was also then wired through, because that was the last great movement of the spirit in the Western world was the it was it was the 70s it was the charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church and the Jesus movement of the Protestant Church that's happening again guys like God is moving very very powerfully in in the outside the west but it's breaking into the West and you've got Russell Brand and all that stuff going on where you know even famous atheists are having profound transformational experiences of Jesus

it comes down to, because we were talking about like the discernment of the spirits, this is what you, this is what used to be part of basic formation of disciples of Christ. Okay. So the old saints would use something called consolation, desolation, that as you move towards something, maybe it was a, maybe you think you've heard a word from God. It's time to change jobs or, you know, it's time to go back to grad school or this is the person that you should marry. They would use consolation desolation that as your heart moves towards it, you kind of test it. You try it on. And you go, well, if I let that be true, what is the fruit of it in my soul? Does it bring about just a sense of God's goodness? And does it have just the ring of truth to it? And the fruit of it is it, does it

producing me, I become a more loving person. Or as I move towards that, oh, man, I don't know. There's something, ooh, something kind of creepy around the edges. They would call it desolation. Like, you can test this. You're an amphibian. You can test experiences, words, and you're told to, right? You're told to test these things.

Yeah. So the answer is, well, we can't have people experiencing Jesus. because they might go off the hippie waterfall. You know, that's just cowardice. That is a very naive view of reality. Instead, what we do is we teach people. It's like the old thing with the counterfeit bills, right? The more you hold real dollar bills, you know, you can tell the counterfeit in a moment,

you know, through the practice of the presence of God, through the reliance of the scriptures, you get pretty good, pretty quick at I identifying, eh, I don't, I don't think, I don't think that's real. Okay, so let me, let me give me for example, why this is so important. So, we, we have kind of the law of 10,000 hours at this. Well, I'm not a theologian like Heiser. I loved, loved Michael Heiser and prayed for him and liked your show with him, by the way. Thanks. But I'm not Michael. What I do have is, you know, 10,000 hours boots on the ground of helping people deal with demonic attack, Kingdom of Darkness stuff. And we were at a time of prayer recently with a young man who is a beautiful young guy, but he was really getting, you know, nightmares and stuff going on.

And we're in a time of prayer with him. and Jesus, the religious spirits are demons that love to imitate Jesus. Look at the cults for heaven's sakes, right? Of course they're going to try and counterfeit that stuff. But as John says in 1 John 4, they cannot confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. So we're dealing with this spirit that actually looks kind of like a good guy. He's like one of the good guys. But this is what the religious spirits always look like.

These are foul fallen angels. He's trying to present himself, you know, as one of the good guys. And we just tested him and said, can you confess right now that the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth came in the flesh? And he was silent. He couldn't do it. And we're like, you are going to the judgment seat of the all. Almighty immediately. He's gone. This young man is better and he's out of that consternation and that confusion because he was he's being hammered by a foul spirit. When you talk about

your experience with Christ walking in the room, I can't help but think of things that friends I have who have had experiences in DMT and ayahuasca and also friends that have had experiences where they, I could think of there's a UFO whistleblowers. This is all going to make sense, I promise, named Jacob Baker, who just had this experience where he apparently gets connected with this entity. And to him, these people believe it's, they feel pure love and it's,

they think they're having a God experience. I've had buddies that are like, oh, I experienced God. I was on DMT and it was light and love. And I think you kind of answered that. But the way to do that is to basically, ask them who they serve, right? And if they can confess, confess that Jesus is king. Well, they're a created being too.

And so they're loyal to somebody. Right. Like there's, there's a story of a woman that I met that was hosting a camp like this. And she said that in the second heaven, a false Jesus would run around at their ayahuasca camp. Yep. And Jesus would walk,

it was Jesus walking around and they believed it. Yeah. But it's to, it's to a point. But sometimes, like in your experience, you say he did show up. So. And then John kind of asked that.

I was going to ask, what do you do? What do you do lineate? How do you delineate between, you know, it says, the Bible says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Yeah. You know. Well, and then he says, actually, in the same thing, he's like, if they're bringing to you any gospel other than the one that you have received that's, you know, printed right here,

some of the basic tests is what are they asking you to do? Who are they asking you to serve? And then you need to test your encounter. with any, you know, what Heiser would call Elohim, any spiritual being. Of course you do, for heaven's sakes. And this isn't freaky-diki, folks, because the first and most important thing is this. Let's start with the basics. You have got to join the right side, folks. You have got to hook up with the Lord Jesus Christ and your Heavenly Father and join the kingdom of God. Because happens then is that you get the spirit of God within you. All right. Holy Spirit is called the

Spirit of truth. Okay. And he is going to help you discern these things. You're not on your own to figure this stuff out. Okay. If you've gone off to an ayahuasca camp, you've already made a bad decision. Yes. Like you're, you are way out of the playing field here and opening doors to the kingdom of darkness, the Holy Spirit will keep you from going to that camp in the first place. If you make the mistake of going, the Holy Spirit will give you so many moments of don't eat that. Don't say yes to that. Don't pray that prayer. Don't chant that chant. We have the spirit of God within us that will help us. And then what Hebrews says is that with practice, you train your senses, to discern good and evil, right?

And yeah, I'm with, I mean, we're in the midst of a spiritual revolution in the world right now, and it's not just revival in Jesus that's breaking out. The entire unseen realm is breaking out. And yes, more than ever, we do need to be discerning. Step one, you bow the knee to Jesus Christ. You give him lordship in your life. Are you kidding me?

Yeah. Because what I was just writing recently, and it's in the book, I read a good deal on refuge, taking refuge in God, Psalm 91, you know, all the great refuge Psalms. And these guys are like, I run to you. Lord, hide me in you. I take refuge in you. Well, they were very aware. See, they're living in the, you know, in the free enlightenment, you know, enchanted world, right? And they knew there is one safe place. And in that time, it was the presence of Yahweh. Right. Now we have John 15. where Jesus is saying, remain in me, stay in me, are you nuts?

The idea of learning to take refuge in God in the presence of the living God, again, that is a practice. That's not just an idea. It's not just a poetic thought. That is an existential ontological reality that as you learn to do that, you take refuge in the presence of the living God. You know, Proverbs 18, the name of the Lord is a strong. tower, the righteous, run to you, and they are safe. From that place, I was just saying, this is step one, guys. You got to hook up with the right team. Yeah. Yeah. And then that family, I like the way you put that, that family, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the saints, the angels,

they will help you navigate your discernment of spiritual experiences. You're not on your own to figure this stuff out. You know, we talk about Jesus' miracles a lot. But I think one of the things that I'm thinking is when Peter gets out of the boat and walks on water for a second, he's different than the rest of the disciples in that moment. There's the skeptical disciple of like, what's he doing? You know, but he's having a different experience with his faith. He's in the boat.

He's with his brothers. He's in, he understands who Jesus is. And then he begins to believe. He has a matrix moment. And we as Christians are afraid to do that. We're afraid to try to walk on water. So we create these very strict Christian. You know, there's some, you know, not to attack some of the reformed stuff that's kind of coming back.

But there's this whole other, like you could only see it this one black and white way. And I think that is a fear of getting out of the boat sometimes of, if I have a strict, rigid, I never have to actually get fall off sink in the water and make a mistake of maybe I do push the boundary. Yes. And I've actually counseled a number of those guys as well. Good heart, sincere people. A lot of their desire is actually the protection of the young in Christ, the immature.

And they're like, hey, hey, the way we can get people safe is to just keep them completely out of a reenchanted worldview. And I'm going, look, that reenchanted world will not let you. Okay? So you can kind of go la, la, la, la, la, la, as much as you want, but that's actually not the best protection for your people. The best protection of your people is to teach them Psalm 91. And what's fascinating about Psalm 91, guys? Like, we could do a whole podcast on it.

But it begins with this lovely, you know, under your shadow of his wings. You're going to find refuge. And then it starts going into, yeah, but you're going to live at war. And you're going to have angels assigned to you. And it gets down to where it says, you will trample the lion and the cobra. You will crush the great lion and the serpent. And suddenly, you who are trying to participate in the refuge of God are a partner. Right.

And this is a huge Timaki thing. God always uses human partners. You know, you are now partnering with God to secure your. home, your household, your kingdom, your domain against the kingdom of darkness by direct intervention. Direct intervention. And so that, I understand their longing. We just need to protect our people in this safe little, you know, thing over here. It doesn't work. Do you think they're like spirit of arrogance, like actual spirits that create a block? Yep. I have a confession that needs It needs to take place on this podcast.

Let's go. Let's go. So I had a deep ambivalence about coming on your show. And I couldn't tell where it was from. And here's the thing. Consolation that's like I couldn't tell. Isn't this the spirit of God? And so I really needed to linger and pray for a while about this.

And here's what happened. Jesus said, John, your pride is going to get in the way. And it is the pride of the law of 10,000 hours. Like we just have truckloads of experience with this stuff. And what he was warning me about, yeah, was the spirit of arrogance. Heck, yeah, they used that stuff. Are you kidding me? It is your self-life.

The self-life is the main entry point of the king. of darkness into your world. I appreciate that. We often, I don't think we really wanted to dive into some of these topics and sometimes, you know, we battle with like feeling inadequate ourselves

as interviewees, interviewers, as we don't have the knowledge. You know, I got a bachelor's degree in recreation. Yeah, you were throwing Frisbee's in camping out for a degree. I got kicked out high school for throwing Frisbe. these around. And, you know, doing the show for five years, sometimes it's like, you know, we all battle our own demons, you know, of like, some people come on our show and we don't agree with

them and they say the wildest stuff and we just trust that like, we, I think we have the same exact feeling of that you had is sometimes when we're doing this. It's like, God, whatever, can I just put my pride aside or my knowledge aside or I know everything aside give this person the grace you're a human being trying to figure it out as well as I am yeah and let's have a conversation yeah and I really I really think that's all we do yeah it's just I don't know I mean I people ask us all the time when off the show what do you think about this is I'm like I have no idea yeah I don't know what that is and every single story is weirder than the last one yeah so I don't know but the churches they don't want to say I don't

know. They don't want to say that. A lot. Yes. And I feel like there's a spirit behind it. This is another way to just kind of help enrich the understanding of your listeners. So the age of the other reason, the enlightenment, but now particularly discipleship to the internet, every single human being that has access to technology is a disciple of the internet right now. And I don't mean the stuff you look up. I mean the process. You are absolutely conditioned, for one thing, to immediate answer. I mean, you know, what's the proper temperature to bake a potato? You know, you get, you don't have to wait for anything.

Okay. Well, the internet life and the high left brain, you know, Christianity of the West, right? It's content. It's good preaching has literally baked into us a fear of mystery. You were just talking about, I don't know. Okay. There's a humility to, I don't know. But we have been taught to fear mystery, particularly through our internet life, because it's like, oh, it's a conspiracy.

They're hiding something. You know, this guy's lying. This is fake news. You know, all that. But folks, take a walk in the woods. Did you know that the trees talk to each other? Have you read the hidden life of trees? Oh, yeah.

Right? By Wall of Ben. Have you read that book? Like, the nature. is full of mystery, that's a good thing. Yeah. Mystery is okay. Because we have our Heavenly Father, because we have the Lord Jesus, literally living inside of us, because we have the help with the Holy Spirit, we don't have to fear it.

Right? And again, the saints of old would say, you know, Psalm 63, David says, he literally says, I've seen God. He says, I've seen you in the sanctuary. I've beheld your glory. He's like, your love is better than life. He is reporting an actual experience of a living God. Now, the songs are full of that. And they're also full of mystery.

It's okay not to understand everything. I appreciate your vulnerability to go back to what you said. So you have this moment. You don't want to come on our show. And I get that. No, no, I wasn't sure about it. I did. Oh, yeah, okay.

Yeah. Well, yeah, sorry. I misquoted you. Yeah, uncertainty. So I think this has happened. This is just a, this isn't about us. It's about a feeling that we all get in our spiritual walk where we're not sure of something. Yeah. What took like, what space did you create to have that conversation between God and you? Your internal clock is, your internal monologue is, I'm not sure. And then God is talking to you. Because we, our voice is, much louder, especially when we're younger. Yes. And then you get to an age where it's like you can hear God's voice more clearly. And you can balance it with your own monologue and then make a healthy decision. I think a lot of our spiritual leaders seem to have one voice higher than the other. There's not a lot of humility injected into the conversation. So I appreciate that. Yeah. And even just in the mission is obviously a lot of life. to be that honest. Yeah, honesty is your friend, folks.

Honesty will see you through a lot of things in your marriage, you know, and in your sexuality. So here's what I did. This is very important. This is what spiritual fathers and mothers do. Like you would go to a St. Anthony, you know, you would go sit under a Benedict, you would go to a St. Patrick and you go, so how do you do that? Yeah, that's fair. Like, that's how you learn stuff. Here's what I did. I put on worship and I kneeled right here at this couch in my office. I put on worship and I just said, first off, I just need to realign with you, God.

I'm not going to figure out the answer to the question until I'm realigned with you. And that you have my attention, but that you also have my worth. will, right? I'm bringing my will into submission to you. I'm so because I love you. Are you kidding me? I adore God. God is the best thing in my life. It is phenomenally rich life with God. I come back to you. I give you my attention. I'm on my knees. I'm worshiping. And I'm saying, I'll do what you want me to do. Give me discernment. Now, here's the beautiful thing about hearing the voice of God. People are like, how do you know if it's you or if it's God? Well, most of the time, I'm God's going to say stuff to you that you don't typically say to yourself, right?

Like, hey, John, it's your pride. The false self is not going to out your pride, right? The false self is going to say, you're such a great guy, you know. He'll say things to you like, I love you. Now, typically, that's not what your self-talk sounds like, right? Your self-puck is you suck, right? Yeah. Yeah, you suck as a dad.

You suck at podcasting. So that's one way you know you're hearing from God is you're like, oh, well, first off, I would never say that to myself. And secondly, is that consistent with the biblical witness? Well, he does love us. We do need to crucify our pride. So I aligned. I came into love.

I came into union and communion again. And then it was from that place when he said, hey, it's your pride. I immediately knew it was him. I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it sure is. So then what you have to do, this is the good old stuff of I crucify the self-life, a narcissist in me, you know, that sense of entitlement.

I crucify that. And then in that place, I can say, so Papa, what do you want me to do? And he says, oh, now you're ready to go on the show. Let's go. That's cool. Yeah. I love this, John.

I had a question based on something you said a little bit earlier was that, so what do we do as Christians especially? Because there's this big, you're talking about submitting our will and crucifying our will. What happens when we open doors? And we leave the door open in our homes, in our lives. Because there's a lot of debate, at least in our channel too, about whether or not Christians can be possessed. Yes, it's a whole conversation, but we know I'm pretty positive based upon the scripture that we can be oppressed, regardless of having the end dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So how do we, how do we clean our houses?

How do we get this stuff out if we've opened doors? Yes, because I think what you're saying is like, what was beautiful about that is that we do war against even ourselves. This isn't even just a spiritual thing. This is this is our pride. This is our flesh, right? Yep. but we also can have the influence of the kingdom of darkness because we've allowed it through a sin or a that's why i asked you because i i wanted to i think that's the first step to knowing deal with the bad guys

okay yeah so thank you for asking that because there is a there is a it's almost a catastrophic failure of christian discipleship to teach people how to deal with the kingdom of darkness in its different expressions. Okay. Let's take, for example, fear. Two nights ago, I woke up. Fear was just on my chest. Now, I'm not seeing a foul being.

I'm not seeing an apparition. There's just fear on my chest in the middle of the night. I'm not typically, that's not my norm, okay? And so I'm like, whoa, Jesus. What do you do with this? So this is what's so beautiful about Psalm 91. So when Jesus quotes it in Luke 10, every one of his Jewish listeners knew exactly what he was quoting. So in Luke 1019, he says, I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions

and to overcome all the power of the evil one. They're like, oh, that's Psalm 91. You will tread on the lion and the cobra. You will crush the great lion and the serpent. Like they knew the immediate connection. You have authority in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to do one of two, things. And now we're going to get real clinic here. Okay. Let's workshop this. Yeah. You sense there's a foul being or some sort of awfulness or kind of thing. You go, no, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I send you to the judgment seat of Christ. You can do that if that's what you're more comfortable with. Or you can crush the lion and the cobra in the room. Okay. You say, in the name of the Lord God Almighty and of the Lord Jesus Christ, I call down your judgment, you foul thing. And I order you to

destroyed in the name of the Lord God, Almighty, and the Lord Jesus. Because the thing of crushing lion and cobra, or the scorpion, right? When you stomp on that scorpion, it's over. There's no binding and banishing. There's no, oh, Heavenly Father, please make this fear go away. This is how you train warriors. This is how you raise up the people of God. is that God allows us to interact with the war around us because it matures us, for one, we have to deal with our stuff, right?

But on the other hand, like, you have to get very fierce with these guys. You call down the authority of Jesus, which he told you to do, and then you can either send them to judgment or you can call down their judgment. Does that make sense? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just real quick, some people say this is the difference between exorcism and deliverance. It's a posture of authority. Yep. That's right.

Yeah, Ephesians 2.6, folks, you've been raised with Christ and seated with him at the right hand of the father. Like, there is a reason that you are situated with Christ in authority so that you can exercise it through your realm. But I want to go back to the earlier question about, like, well, we're not possessed, but maybe we're oppressed. So in Ephesians 4, Paul says, don't let the sun go down on your anger and don't give the devil a foothold. Right? Okay. So this is a letter to Christians. He's talking very, very clearly the context of the letter is to people who are already members of the family of God.

They're already honoring Jesus as Lord. and he says, your undelt with stuff can often give, not always, but it can often give the enemy access to really hammer you. Okay. So a guy comes to me a couple weeks ago and he's like, I am devastated. I'm yelling at my kids. I'm angry at my own. I can't get a hold of this anger. And I'm like, well, let's see if there's an Ephesians four thing going on here with your father, an angry man. he starts crying. He's like, oh yeah. I'm like, what about your grandfather? All on. I'm like, so generational iniquity gets passed down through the bloodline. That's very, very biblical, old and New Testament. And what you do, so you're asking, what do you do with this stuff? Okay. So if you sense it's

a generational thing, you'll see divorce go down through family lines, alcoholism, sexual abuse, you know, shame, all kinds of stuff, come down, violence through, family lines, the first thing you have to do is renounce the sins of your forebears. You have to break with the tradition. You break with the generational sin. And here's why. We're going to get really technical for a moment. In the parable of the persistent widow, when she says to God, please grant me justice

from my adversary, the word for adversary is anti-decos. It's a Greek word that means the one who has a legal claim on you. okay you go oh well that's a cool parable i mean you can't really build a whole case off that well then you go to first peter five versus eight and nine where peter says this he says heads up be sober and alert your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour okay so this isn't like tempt you to eat a bag of donuts or you know or you know lust at your personal assistant these guys are out to steal, kill, and destroy, man. You're dealing with full-on terrorists.

And he says, resist him, firm in the faith, knowing that your brethren around the world are undergoing the exact same thing. A, spiritual warfare is totally normal. B, everybody's under it in some form. But the word he uses there, anti-decos, the one who seeks a legal claim against you. God is not a legalist, but Satan is. and open doors like sin, for example, are how he gets legal claim into someone's life or into a church or into a family line.

So if you have this generational sin coming down a family line of sexual abuse, right, that the poor heirs of that line are going to struggle with all kinds of sexual stuff. the enemy has a legal claim until somebody takes it away. And so what this young man needed to do was renounce the sins of his forefathers. I renounce that. He also needed to forgive his father's sins of anger against him. Forgiveness and renunciation are what break the legal claims. And then we were able to, he repents of his own anger. that's awesome. But then we also brought the victory of the Lord Jesus and his authority to send

this foul spirit of rage to the judgment of Christ. He texts me four days later and he says, no anger, no rage, all of the stuff that used to trigger me is still happening in my life is gone. I'm like, yeah, it's gone because this poor guy was under this generational Ephesians 4 stronghold. How do you determine necessarily like from a clinical standpoint with that is a generational thing and not a is it by so just I'm thinking personally if I walk around and I have you know these struggles whatever it is how do I as just as a regular person figure out if that's something that I'm dealing with is a generational line thing or if that's just like a sin issue or you know a flesh issue for for me personally in that sense. Yeah well you do need to do a little inquiry right

I mean, if you know that something is like, oh, my dad was so like that, you know, my grandfather or it can be on the feminine line as well, you know, it can come down through the mother's bloodline as well. Yes, we don't want to start blaming our own stuff on everybody else, right? So, you know, yeah, you got to be honest about, first off, even if this was generational, I'm making agreements with it now, you know, I'm perpetual. it. So you always start with your own personal repentance. But if you know that something has come down from the family line, or if the normal means of repentance and renunciation are not

getting you the breakthrough that you want, then you inquire into more. And this is where that, you know, the whole, the whole Christian experience is based on union and communion with Christ. So Ephesians 3, may God strengthen you in your inmost being, right, by His spirit within you, so that Christ may fill your hearts. Okay. So as we navigate the unseen realm, Jesus within us will often daylight things like he did for me with my pride. Or I'm sitting with a client and I'm like, Lord, I have no idea what this is. And he'll say, ask him about, ask a, I was talking to a gal.

Oh my gosh, I was in this story the other day. Holy smokes. So this gal had had multiple near-death experiences in her life, like near-drowning automobile accidents, almost died in childbirth. And this wasn't even the topic of conversation. We were having coffee. And she's telling me a little bit about her life story. And the amphibian in me is going,

ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. This is a wild story, man. this is some, you know, blurry creatures all over this stuff. She's like, yeah, when I was two or three as a little girl, I used to sit on the third story roof of our house because I heard a voice telling me if I just threw myself off, it would be better for everyone. Now, the thing you have to understand is she and her husband are in ministry.

They have a global ministry. And they had never even considered that the kingdom of darkness was involved. And I'm like, can I just point out to you that most three-year-old little girls don't sit on the roof of the house thinking that the part throw themselves off because they're hearing voices? I'm like, have you considered that there might be some foul things involved here? And then I began to do a little inquiry into the family line and her grandmother was a wicked, wicked person. I'm like, well, that could be the open door right there. Anyway, phenomenal time of repentance and forgiveness, renunciation of the sins of the forbearers. And then you bet, was there a spirit of death there?

Heck, yeah, there was. And we sent that guy to judgment. And it was lovely. When you're describing this, it kind of reminds me of people who live in a haunted house and they don't know it's haunted. And it's like the steps in their mind to come to the admission, my house is haunted. this isn't normal and we've interviewed dozens of people who've had a haunted house but in some ways you can apply the same the mechanics of that to yourself of like something's not right right i don't it feels more than human rage or the human experience i'm like turn into the Hulk and want to

destroy things and then it's like gone and it's like i don't it's like i was possessed almost and i think having that discernment, like tapping into, like what you're saying, like, turning everything off in the world and actually, God, what is going on right now? We're so skeptical of the haunted house. We're so skeptical it's happening. Yeah. I mean, come on, guys, all over the place, man. You live in a highly populated universe. Yeah. Yeah. Because we keep trying to make the kingdom of God like a front yard. it's all neat and manured the weeds you know the kingdom of god is like a forest it's it's wildly beautiful exquisitely organic and it is full of critters ruggedly dangerous yes are this dimension and fourth and fifth dimension critters as well is what we've discovered yeah yeah yeah exactly right

But the skepticism, I think, is a big part of how can you have a global ministry and be so far into like your understanding of the kingdom of heaven. But yet there's this part of you that has no idea. What is that? And is that what the book is trying to address? Yes, it is. Gently, gently. Because the thing is, first off, you're born into this hour, folks. Like, you don't know what you don't know.

You can't blame people for what they don't know because they're all disciples of the internet. They're grandchildren of the Enlightenment. They've been in this iron curtain Western developed comfort culture. But the other thing you have to understand is that the Kingdom of Darkness will try and operate behind the scenes as long as it possibly can. These guys do not like to get outed because if you're, you know, in Ephesians 2 6, if you're seated with Christ at the right hand of the father and you start realizing these guys are operating, their gig is up, man. They're up, up, done, over, like judgment. And so they'll try and hang in the background of a family line or of a marriage, you know,

of a church using the open doors, you know, somebody's pride, somebody's hatred, somebody's affair, somebody's, you know, they're trying to use the legal claims, but they'll stay in the background as long as they can because once they are outed, their day is over, right? And you can get that beautiful, beautiful resolution. Isaiah 61 is the passage Jesus quotes when he announces his ministry. And he says, I am here to heal humanity's brokenness and to set you free from darkness. right from the kingdom of darkness man and you get that you get that freedom uh the demons don't like that stuff so they'll um they'll try and cloak it veil it hide it as long as they can you know even the 40 years in this gall's life yeah the iron curtain could be at night or skepticism yeah they're both an iron curtain yeah that's good one of them's unbelit it's weird Hey John, what about the other side of the coin?

If we're to, your new book is about, you know, divine communion. It is experiencing God. Is the other side of that coin is that we can create generational blessings that go down through our line? Because it feels to me like as we sort of pull the string out that like all the kingdom of darkness does is counterfeit the kingdom of heaven. So is the other side of that coin is if we. follow Christ, we immerse ourselves in the presence of God, we commune and walk with Jesus, that we are creating generational blessings within our lines that will carry down to our children and grandchildren, etc. Absolutely. Yes, that's right. I love that. Oh, it's so beautiful. Yeah. And,

and children are little mystics, right? They are so open to hearing the voice of Jesus. They're so open to experiencing him that if you can get this worldview and this practice into a family early on, those kids are going to grow up with a truly biblical worldview and walking intimacy with Jesus, having him speak to you, guide you, comfort you, heal your trauma. They're ducks to water, man. They're not little skeptics. And so you can build that into the life early on. The kids often see strange things and people, they'll tell their parents. A lot of people email us and their, my kid is saying X, Y, Z is happening. Yes. And it's like, what do I do? They ask us. And we're like, I don't know. We've got kids, but I don't know. But it's,

that is so true. It's like they are open to the unseen realm on both sides. Yeah. Our Blaine, our middle son was especially, he was our little radar equipment. And we were, would go, you know, you rent a VRBO or you're going in a, you know, you're touring a foreign city somewhere and Blaine would just go, hey, it's really creepy here. And we would. Let's not stay here. We would give him our attention. We're like, okay, buddy, say more. What are you picking up? You know, he's the, he's the canary in the cave. Exactly. Right. From the mine, in the mine, in the mine, but yeah, I think it's a caring of mine. Canary in a mind. Just like telling you, it's not safe here. Dad, let's not go. Hey, John, I think me, my life,

last question for you is like you know as you spend these 10,000 hours you do all this clinical work you've written tons of books of course this new book coming out is is about rediscovering living within an unseen realm if you had to pick like one thing that you think has been most important or most seminal you might have already touched on this but for your experience and walk with with Jesus and immersing yourself what you call this enchanted world which is really what we we always talk about is is the not separating the natural from the supernatural but living in that space that the ancient Near Easterns and the Hebrews. What does that, if you had to pick one thing,

you think has been most important for you, what would that be, a practice or a mindset or a prayer? What for you has been most impactful, important? That's a brutal question for a spiritual father. What I want to say is, come spend a week with me. Well, I'm into that. We can do that. And you're welcome to.

But here's what I would say, Revelation 320. it's an exquisite invitation. Jesus says, I'm knocking. And if you open the door of your inner life, I will come in. And we will have a meal together as friends. The idea is a lingering intimacy with Jesus that is conversational in your inmost being. And what people don't realize is he's knocking through your addiction. He's knocking through your anxiety.

He's knocking through the things that aren't working, right? And if you will give him access to these realms within you, the inner life of the human being is very much like Narnia. The inside is bigger than the outside. I mean, your heart is a vast kingdom. If you will, or Teresa Villal would call it the rooms of the interior castle, if you will open the door to your fear, open the door through your sexual addiction and say, Jesus, I need you here. I need you in this place.

You will discover that the soul is healed through union with Christ. It's healed. You don't, you don't just have to manage your brokenness. Like there is a recovery of wellness that comes through union with Christ. I say that verse and that one practice will bring people so much rickin' joy it's incredible do you think we're taught often we open the door one time but we have to we have to continue to open the door you got to keep opening the door because there are parts of you it's there are literally parts of you that are unconverted right there are parts of you that thoroughly belong to god now and there are parts of you that don't well he's not primarily after the parts of you that are open He's out to the parts of you that are not okay.

And so you have to keep opening the door and giving him access to your inner world. What things can you do to daily open the door? What's like some practical things that we do? Jesus, right? Because we're talking about don't open the door to the bad. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. You know the simplest practice is that you have a safe. We talked about this, the very opening the show. You have to get off the screens, get off the technology. You've got a little sacred space in your morning. And I would simply love God. You just say, Father, I love you.

Jesus, I love you. I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. Because loving God opens the soul to his presence. And he is able to more richly inhabit you. So, so salvation. correctly understood is to be thoroughly inhabited by Jesus Christ. More and more of me, as Dallas Willard said, belonging to more and more of him. I would make the simple practice of loving God, one of your irreplaceable things. I think that's profound, John. You think about how often we ask God

of things in our prayer life and we're asking, asking any help with this, any type of this, and the juxtaposition of just sitting and saying, I love you. I mean, I think that's a, it's kind of making my brain go, man, how often do I just come with my, you know,

supplication, like the idea that here's what I need, you know, I'm, I need help, I need help with this. And he made kids to sleep, I need, this is the business thing and everything else that's going on. And as you say, he just wants to, he wants to hang out with it.

He wants to sit, he wants to sit with us and, you know, have all end well and have all. I love that. I, um, simple but I mean but so I think so profound as far as a posture in our in our prayer life it's funny because uh I see it I see a therapist John and that's exactly what she was trying lately she's been telling me to do and in the morning first thing get up and do that exactly what you said and it's like we get up and we just go we get in we plug it we plug back into the matrix and we just become the rabbits in or the the the uh just the cog and the wheel, and we forget what we're part of. Even doing this, which is supposed to get you out of that,

you could still find yourself. It's like we're such creatures of habit that we're sort of, we don't know how to break out of our patterns very well, you know. That's right. So you choose simple things, like her advice, you choose simple things that will help you begin to create new habits. Yeah, you have to become a kid again, you know? Very basic.

I mean, a lot of this conversation is simple in nature, but very complex. Very hard in execution. Yeah, the execution part of getting through all of our old habits and pride and everything else to get to that, I think is the difficult part. Yeah, if you have a narcissistic trade in you, the hardest thing is to say, I'm wrong. And it's like, you know those people that will never say I'm wrong. And a big breakthrough in your own personal development and approaching God is to say, I'm wrong.

But sometimes it takes 50 years to say those words. I don't understand. Even though you could build an empire of a business and you can be a massive success, but you can't say I'm wrong about something. Yeah, not until your wife says she doesn't love you anymore. Dude, yes. God will knock. He will knock.

And he will knock through your teenage daughter's anxiety. He will knock through your pornography addiction. And he'll knock through your wife telling you she thinks, you know, you're an absolute. And then I can't fill in the last word. But then you have to face something, don't you? Right? Yeah.

I think that we sort of live our lives in reverse sometimes. And we keep coming back and the basics, you know, like I think when we were kids, we sang these little simple hymns. And it's almost like we have to do that as adults. you know, Jesus loves me this I know, you know. That's what you, you know, and I love you back, Jesus, you know. Yeah. And we're, it's funny, I like these episodes because I think sometimes we get into the complexity

of the supernatural world trying to break down like, okay, what is this entity, what is this creature? And sometimes we have to just be reminded of the basics. But I think a big part of it is, like you said, having a knowledge of how to be getting to dismantle these things in our generations and our lives. Yep. It almost makes me think, John, like, if you're open to this, I know a lot of our listeners constantly hit us up, and they want materials on how to do these things.

And we don't know what to do. If you want to help us create some of that stuff, we'd be open to it. 100%. Because we don't know what to do. We don't know how to point people. Daily messages of, like, what do I do? We kind of need, like, a man, something to point them.

in that direction. We'd love to partner with you on that or help our listeners. Okay. John, I have to say, I mean, thank you. I don't, seriously. In some ways, it was funny like when Nate, we had Mike Heiser on first time. I wasn't, I hadn't, no familiar with his work. And so it was really interesting, an eye opening and then it seemed around open my eyes and it was early on in our podcast. But in some ways, this feels like a Super Bowl for me. Like, I, it's such a profound honor. Like, I think your work has been so impactful on my life that it's really been an honor to have you, man. I'm really glad. that you took some time out of your day

and spent time with us. Yeah, thank you. It means far more than you can imagine, at least for me personally. Yeah. I've found so much life in the words you've written and your outlook that it's, in some ways, kind of my Super Bowl, and I think if, if.

Yeah. Having Mike on the second time was crazy because I'd read all his stuff, but this is such a, yeah. It's a profound honor for me. And I'm grateful. Yeah, but you have a new book out? Let's talk about the book out.

book and plug the book where people can get it. So the book, the book is an invitation to become an ordinary mystic, to walk in the tradition. You know, Paul didn't become a Christian because somebody walked him through the Old Testament and showed him Jesus. He encountered Jesus on the Damascus road. The book is an invitation to, here's how to open your heart back up to that. And then some very, very practical guidance. even practical prayers on, well, if you're dealing with this, try this.

If we're, the exquisite part, the epicenter of the book is that Revelation 320 inviting Christ into places of trauma, places of loss, places of bondage, experiencing the soul's union with Christ healing. So it's a lovely kind, it's sort of like a hitchhiker's guide to the kingdom of God. I love it. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I mean, it's, thank you again for being vulnerable and sharing your story. And it's, it's good to know that, you know, we can all still just be honest and truthful and vulnerable in a daily basis. And I think that's a big part of what we're called to do down here, you know.

Right on, guys. You're doing a great job. You're really underselling yourselves. Well, thanks. I appreciate that. It's just, yeah. This has been cool. Dude, I may, I may take you up on coming and hanging in Colorado

the next time we're out that direction because that would be an honor as well, man. I know that that's, yeah. Yeah, just, again, I mean, I really appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty. And it's really encouraging because this is a hard thing to do daily. And it wears on you. Like you're talking about the voice inside. And there's days when you're just like, I don't, it's so much opposition. A lot from the church, people are just so mean and so cool.

and don't know you. And they said, and it's just wears you down. It's so refreshing to have, like, your voice and encouragement through just a great conversation. It's just really a warming thing for my soul. So thank you for that. Your, your Papa is really proud of you. He is. And can I just give you another little tool that's going to give you a lot of joy?

So when people say those horrible things to you, that's a low-level curse. Okay. Blessing, life and death are in the power of the time. tongue what you do is you say later Lord I bring your cross and your blood against their hatred against their words and I cut those judgments off of me in the name of Jesus Christ and you're literally going to feel cleaner and lighter and more joyful that's cursing man that's horrible stuff mm-hmm yeah power the tongue as blessing and cursing was.

So I bring the cross of Christ against those words, that email, that phone call, that person, right? And I cut the power of that off of me is so joyful and relieving. It's like, oh, thank you, God. That's a good word. It's a great way to end. John, what's your website for people

who want to check out your website? Wildatheart.org. Thanks again, John, for coming on, blurry creatures and giving us a chance. I'm so glad I did. All right. I did. Thank you.