Blurry Creatures - EP: 314 Mind Readers: The Telepathy Tapes Uncensored with Joe Infranco

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Joe Infranco from Telepathy Tapes podcast episode 7/8 joins Blurry Creatures to continue deeper into the spiritual aspects of the telepathic phenomenon. We unravel more details behind these autistic apparent mind-reading abilities as well as the mysterious place they describe as “The Hill.” Is telepathic communication merely a trick of the brain, or are these children tapping into something far more profound? And what secrets does The Hill hold—why is Jesus reportedly meeting people there? Prepare for a deep dive into concepts whistle blown in the viral podcast known as The Telepathy Tapes. Joe gives us more clues into the spiritual explanations of non-verbal children meeting at the intersection of consciousness, faith, and the unknown.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story, they're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say, what is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December.

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Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. We were in a spelling session. We had Cody on a Zoom call with them, and they were all seeing with their spelling facilitators, and they're all doing their thing. Whoever's with them is speaking what they're spelling. And toward the end, I think it was Houston, said to Cody,

you should join us on the hill tonight. That's the first reference I ever heard. And Cody responds, I'd like to, it's so hard to go there and then come back to my body and the chains on it. So all of a sudden when we're going, really blurry here, right? So the next spelling session

with his spelling facilitator, I said, Cody, could you, like, what was that the hill? Could you tell me about that? And he spells out, ask, and he gives the name of his facilitator, ask her she's been on the hill. And we all look at her,

and the color literally drained from her face. And she said, 10 years ago, I had a dream. And in this dream, I was on this beautiful hillside, and Jesus was there. I could see his face distinctly. And it was an actual hill. And it was the most peaceful, perfect place I've ever seen. And she leans towards skepticism, which makes this more compelling.

And Cody then says to her, with no further comments from her, the children you saw there all had autism. And she goes, right, there were children all over the place. So apparently they come, from around the world, they'll talk about my friend in New Zealand or things like that. So it's not heaven, they're clear about that, but it's someplace where their spirit or soul, whatever the right word would be, disconnects from the body. And they go there and they just communicate in thought. So the spelling facilitator said, why was I allowed to see that? And Coe said, you were allowed to see that because Jesus knew you'd be working with us and he wanted you.

to know what we experience. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. Enjoy the journey. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right. Because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Real quick, I want to give you guys a heads up. We are going to Israel.

The trip is happening with Tom Doyle, Ali Siatitan, and Dr. Joel Mudamale are going to be tagging along with us. April 9th through the 19th, 2026. Tickets go on sale in one week on April 7th at 7 p.m. Central Time for all members. So if you want to go to that trip, you want to have a chance to get those tickets, blurrycreatures.com slash members. You'll get an email and a link right at 7 to buy those tickets. All the blurry spots, including Mount Herman, all the weird places we've talked about over the years. It's happening, excited.

Let's get Joe on this one and dive into telepathy tapes. Welcome back to blurry creatures. I know a lot of people out there are going to be really excited about this episode because we've gotten probably more than anything else in the last. few months people have been sending us clips and have you checked out this podcast and obviously it's blown up it's called the telepathy tapes and it's for those you don't know give it a quick Google or even listen to it it's it's about autistic kids mind reading having telepathic abilities with either like a parent or and it gets even stranger than that but we talk a lot about telepathic communication

in paranormal stories even stories revolving around Bigfoot we got Joe and Franco in the house today you were on the podcast and I think what we wanted to do was kind of get the Christian aspect of this because a lot of this this whole podcast is talking about you know the cosmos and it's spiritual but we go the next level and say okay how does this relate to our faith is Christian so welcome to the podcast and we got to kick it off yeah I'm great to be with you guys and I know what's coming yeah all right what your thoughts on Bigfoot and welcome to welcome blurry creatures. Yeah, thanks. It's great to be with you guys. It's fun to see you in person after hearing your voices, you know, so often. I get, you know, growing up in New York City or the metro area,

you know, there weren't many sightings, you know, we dreamed about places like the Four Corners in Arizona and all that. So you didn't have many sightings on like Madison Avenue or, you know, downtown Brooklyn. Yeah. But it was always, it's always intriguing. I have no stories to tell, no footprints. It strikes me there's probably a common story. There's something that happened somewhere. What disappoints me most is that we don't have any genuine bones or relics. I think you had a guest one time who mentioned there were some places that might have been Tibet or Nepal that claim to have whatever, an arm bone or something. And they were all tested and none of them were legit. They're all debunked. So what's a little tough for me and you guys have, you know,

explored this space a bit is sometimes Bigfoot is real physical, you know, like tearing apart sheep and all that. And then other times, he's kind of there and not. So I'm a little suspicious of making him, you know, other dimensional. So he's conveniently physical when we want that and conveniently absent when that suits the story better. So I don't know. I tend to think of him more as physical because it's just too much with the hair and all that kind of thing. And I don't know, there may be a few of them left or something. I know some of the photos were suspect. Some seem more legitimate.

It seems like there's something there. But other than that, I don't know. Well, I like that because I do a quick connection there, that that's kind of what this whole telepathy tape is talking about. There's this physical part of these children. And then there's this spiritual part where they can communicate. and they have this ability. Us normal creatures, you know, human creatures and the physical flesh don't have or had.

And we don't anymore. And I think that's the debate that rages on in the Bigfoot community. Is it just an animal or is it like some sort of spiritual creature? But tell us a little bit more about yourself. And then we're fascinated to kind of hop in and hear your point of view on this sort of phenomenon. But very pragmatic from a former or former or current lawyer. Yeah. Like, here's the case.

Yeah, well, my background is law. I was a litigator in New York for about 25 years. I left there and went to a religious freedom organization called the Lions Defending Freedom. I was there about 18 years and oversaw what was called the Allied Attorney Network, lawyers in private practice. There was kind of a lot of coaching and helping because if you don't do an area of law, you don't know it. So not many lawyers do constitutional law or play in the church religious freedom space. and all that. And, you know, if you gave me a real estate closing, I'd be out at sea. But on narrow First Amendment issues, I can, you know, I can go on for a while. So I was there and left there to fulfill my lifelong dream of pastoring, which I finally did. I'm an

associate pastor now about five years at Highlands Church in Scottsdale, Arizona, a pastor of adult education. So I get a lot into apologetics and cultural issues. They sort of slide me the issues that are uncomfortable that people don't like to talk about. Like Genesis 6? Yeah, yeah. I like that. So, I mean, but one of the things that's really interesting about is, is the connection there between that and telepathy tapes. And walk us down this because, as Nate said at the top, one of the reasons that we wanted to reach out to you and talk to you were on the show with Kai, but you also have what are called Spellers, these nonverbal autistic people in the congregation.

So where do we start with this? Because I think this is the fascinating thing. You've been in this about a decade before you go on the show. And where do we start? Yeah, and it's not even a decade. It's probably less than two years. Okay. So our church happens to have a big focus on special needs ministry.

We have one of the largest ones in the Phoenix Valley when we did Night to Shine this year, not long ago. We had over a thousand people on the campus, and you know, it's the Tim Tebow Foundation thing. And so we love special needs ministry. And I've always felt drawn to, I'm not in it, I don't do it. When the spelling started, and I was hearing about people's spelling, and discovering the way they would put it is, I'm really in here and people don't know. We have a human bias, and we see someone who's nonverbal. We tend to assume that they're, not really there. Like I have a friend, Brooke Brown, Brooks, been in a wheelchair all her life. She's

severe cerebral palsy. She's lost the power to speak. And people have always treated her like there's just, there's no, there's nothing happening intellectually. She's an honors graduate of Arizona State. She gave the commencement address with her voice activated device. She's a motivational speaker and author. And quite funny, she was Miss Arizona wheelchair. and then went to Miss U.S. wheelchair, and her platform was always assumed competence. Because she talks about how incredibly frustrating it is. I interviewed her on my podcast that, you know, somebody will come and they'll talk to her, and she can't give a verbal response.

So what do people do? They repeat it and they talk louder, you know, like Americans overseas. You don't speak English. Well, you'll understand me clearly if I just say it louder, you know, that's going to help me. So I've always been intrigued by that. And my intrigue with it was particularly, we're all image bearers of God. We all say that. Any Christian would say that and pass a lie detector test.

We don't always act that way, sometimes because we just don't know what to do. We see someone in a wheelchair who can't speak. It doesn't occur to us to go over there and start a conversation with them because it's not really a conversation. It gets awkward and all of that. But I kept feeling like, I really want to get to know these people better. I wonder what's going on. And then the revelation came that they were spelling. And they were saying things like, yeah, I am in here.

And individuals who were being shown Barney and Elmo videos are finally communicating. And they were saying, hey, stop that. I hate that. You know, it's for kids. What happens sometimes with non-speaking autism is they'll tend to get into these patterns where they repeat words. They lose control of their body and their speech. So if they're being shown Elmo videos, they'll just keep repeating Elmo. And well-meaning parents go, oh, I guess they want more Elmo.

And you see more Elmo when you say more Elmo more often. The book we have kind of in production, now the first chapter is called, you know, the problem with autism. Cody, who is a young man, books mostly about, hates Elmo. Once they started spelling, Cody wanted to talk about World War II and sports. Another speller, same thing. We all thought they had the kind of mental level of six-year-olds. Her grandfather was a physicist. She's memorized the periodic table in chemistry and wants to study the brain.

Another one said, I want to learn how to trade stock. I don't know how to do options. yet. I want my father. So there's this mind-blowing thing that they're there. They have thoughts, they have opinions and all of that. I was just fascinated on a human level and a pastoral level, like how do I connect to these sheep who have been overlooked? So just for our listeners and for me, you start a ministry for special needs people at your church. It was pre-existing. It was running for a long time. We have maybe as many as 80 families on an average Sunday. We get a lot more if everybody showed up. But we wanted to, one of the co-pastors, they're a very close friend of mine, was the

start of it. When the church started, he went to the elders there and said, you'll only see either me or my wife because we can't leave our son here in church. People would call it acting up. He'll get verbal or, you know, yell or run. And elders, boy, to their credit, said, that's unacceptable. Let's start a special needs ministry. So it started with one person, one teacher who had a master's in special ed, one student, and no room to meet it. And from that, it's just grown because these families are really in crisis. Couples with special needs kids, it's sad to say, the divorce rate, if they don't get help, approach is 90%.

and they don't know how to relate to the kids. It's when they're in a restaurant and they act up. You know, people give them dirty looks. This is a lesson for all of us as Christians. They've said to me, when there were someplace public and the kid acts up, there was always one kind person who came over and said, you're doing a great job as a parent. Don't let this get to you, hang in there because somebody understood.

And those are like words of life to them, because we don't really get the community and the stresses in it. That was my heart before we had the revelation of telepathy and even seeing the spiritual world. Well, Joe, that's what I want to ask you. So the folks that are listening to the show or watching the show of this time, that haven't really dove into the telepathy tapes,

understanding what that is. Can you explain what a speller is? Because that may be something people don't understand. As a non-verbal, and then also, you and I had a chance to talk before yesterday and last night. And can you talk about what that is and then also talk about why that has been controversial and sort of where that is and where we are now. Yeah, so great place to start.

So they use what's called a spelling board. It's about the size of a sheet of paper, a slightly larger. And it has stencil letters of the alphabet. There's even a delete key. And there's a spot to touch that I'm at the end of a thought. And what spellers do is they'll take a finger or some use a pencil, usually a finger. and in response to questions or something they want to say, they'll start touching letters and they'll sequence the thought, and then somebody there is taking notes on what they're saying.

We have hundreds and hundreds of hours of video of this, and I've observed more of these than I can imagine over the last few years, and they are really there spelling and communicating. autism, and I've had to do a deep dive into autism to get this better, affects fine motor skills. Of course, it's a spectrum. Some people on the higher functioning and have almost genius type qualities. People suspect Elon Musk is on the spectrum, you know, they would say. You get deeper into it when people are, when their speech is not reliable, they use, the technical term they use is non-speaking. that doesn't mean they're not capable of saying a word.

It just means their speech is not reliable to varying degrees. So you might talk to them and you might say to Cody, hi, Cody, how are you today? How am I? How am I? How am I? You might get something, but the speech is not reliable for communicating. Yeah. So the autism affects fine motor skills. And you need fine motor skills, for example.

So they hear the question. How are you? And they're probably in their mind saying, doing good, doing great, having a great time, but it doesn't come out that way. So that's kind of what you're saying? That's right. And often they're not doing well because they're thinking they want to answer and the body's not cooperating. Because they don't have fine motor skill, they lose speech, they can't do handwriting.

But their gross motor skills still work. So they can cut new neural circuits and lift an arm and try. trained themselves to get the hand to the board and spell. It's a laborious process. It takes hours and it takes a long time until they, you know, they get tired, they can't go on. But they love it because they're in there and they want people to know that they're there and they want to be heard. How do they learn how to spell? This is a fascinating thing.

And when we get into the credibility of this, we'll talk about it a little bit. I'd love to get to the spiritual stuff and saying, you know, the dimension of angels and demons. But we have to kind of, we have to, I think, for people, dot our eyes and cross our T's, because there's an old body of scientific information that says it's not reliable. That's been really thoroughly refuted.

But the way they learn to spell is they teach themselves. We live in a print-rich environment. To the degree, our brain stopped processing letters. I'm sitting here with you. I'm seeing letters everywhere. You two might have pointed to the picture of Bo Jackson and said, oh, that's Bo Jackson. Remember when Bo did this?

They're looking and they're seeing those letters and learning to pronounce it. So they acquired these skills. And there have been peer-reviewed academic studies that show that they've developed this. So it's in there. They're essentially self-taught. And it develops at an earlier age than people realize. Do you think that their telepathic sort of gift with if they can read the mind of somebody who knows how to read or knows how to do these things? Does that help them learn that skill as well?

That probably is part of it. The telepathy is hard to summarize. Yeah. I don't want to go beyond what I think we can reasonably prove. Yeah. I love being open-minded. And you guys are. But I like, you know, some of the G.K. Chesterton quotes, we don't want to be so open-minded.

Our brains fall out. Oh, we said something like as a paraphrase. I like to open my mind the way I open my mouth to close it on something solid. We've got a good net here. Things fall out, but we catch on to it. Yeah, yeah. No, you all do a great job with that.

Well, I just, I think that was just the thing that you kind of learn real quickly is that like, okay, these parents pick up really quickly that, okay, it's not just, my kid is learning somehow and knows what's going on and they have to kind of expand their own paradigm in the moment of how does my kid know these things? The telepathy is inconsistent.

The few rules that I've observed so far, rules, observations I should say, would be that they do it more easily with someone they love or they trust. Very often they can read their mothers. And mothers are primary caregiver and all that. But there have been plenty of times I've gone into a session and I sit behind someone. when they haven't even turned around and seen me enter the room, and they'll spell something, hi, Joe, I see you're having a tough day today. And I'm, you know, sitting there. Initially, I'm thinking, how in the world do they? Then I've come to realize, okay, they're just, they're picking that up. And I think I, I mean, I'm, this sounds self-serving, but it's true. I genuinely love them.

I genuinely care for them. I have a pastoral affection for them. And I think they pick that up, and that makes it easier for them to kind of tune into me. So it's good to be like, sorry, new into this and I don't really know a lot of it. So you're saying that usually an autistic child will develop a specific relationship with someone they trust and love like their mother, and then they can read that one person's thoughts,

and that's kind of the beginning of the phenomenon. That's when parents figure this whole thing out. I know you've been years into this, so it's hard to tell people who've never heard this before, and that's kind of our job is to ask those questions to kind of piece it together. And then you will be, be, you know, somewhere.

And they're reading your mind, which is like the next step. Before you even meet these children, they can read your mind, just like they could read their mom's mind. So they can step out of the comfort range of, I can read other people's minds, too, which makes me think, like, you've got to be careful what you're thinking at church these days, more than you used to. That's a common reaction. Oh, no, I'm not, I mean, I've met people who say, I'm not sure I want to be around

them. And the answer to that is if they're able to detect those thoughts, there's nothing they haven't heard, you know. Yeah, right. It's like the old Mel Gibson movie. And it's not so much like word for word from my experience. It's just more like I'm picking up that they're angry about something. It's not so much like a typewriter automatically picking up literally every word. There's more senses.

And the interesting thing is it's in the physical world and the, I hate using an expression like a spiritual world. Let's say a spiritual dimension. So I think we're in, they're always touching in ways. So I don't want to give a sense that's something completely separate. I know some of your guests have kind of developed that thought. But example, Cody, the young man, you know, the book that's in production, so it's not available yet, it's called Decoding Cody.

Cody's grandmother was dying. She was on her deathbed. And Cody's mom, the grandson of the daughter of the woman dying, was in the bedroom watching her breathe, her last, literally taking her last breaths. The breathing gets shallower, and at one moment the breathing just stopped. Now, Cody might have been six or seven years old when this happened,

was already diagnosed, known to be non-speaking, you know, autistic young man. The moment his grandmother stopped breathing, He went running into the room, and he was jumping up and down and laughing. And he started saying, bye, bye, Grandma, see you in heaven, Grandma. Bye, bye, Grandma. And now, what do you do? His mother saw this event. If you don't know what to do, you file it away.

And years later, she remembered it. And she asked him in a spelling session, what happened when Grandma died? Well, he knew the date. and they often have prodigious memories. You remember the movie Rain Man with Dustin Hoff? Oh, yeah. He could look at a telephone book and he sees the server in the restaurant,

tells her her name, address, and phone number. There's often prodigious memories. That's based on a real life person, that character. And years later, when he was asked about it, he said, Mom, you were so sad. You were watching Grandma die. But I saw Jesus come and take Grandma with him, and grandma was so happy.

She was so filled with joy and don't be sad, Mom, because you're going to see her again. So here you see this kind of awareness. He's in another room, but he's aware of what his mother is feeling. He's getting this glimpse in this non-material dimension and seeing his grandmother leave with Jesus. And so it's all kind of coming together. We tend to want to make things clear and categorize.

I think a lot of this stuff defies categories. So the language is just one part of, it's almost like they're seeing into the spirit realm, like you said. Oh, they all do. I want to get to that. But can we handle this real quick, though, because I know there'll be people who listen to this and then Google this. And as you said at the top,

the recent research on Spellers has refuted the old research, which basically would try to debunk this as, and we were talking about this yesterday, Joe, it almost sounds like the initial studies were, the best way I can describe it is like a wee-jee, board in a sense where there's somebody helping the person their hand, right? So the only reason I bring that example up was everybody puts their hands on a wiji board which no one should ever play.

This is a course of disqualifier and we've talked about I've never played one. Right. You're moving this. And so the, and I'll let you opine on this, but like the all of the initial studies were were basically debunked because they thought there was an influence there. And so they weren't really speaking. But talk about that because I want to clear this up Because we, I think in order to get to move to, you know, Cody sees

And is telling his mom these things and he's able to see these. You got to speak to the skeptics. Yeah, but you have to understand. No, this is a legit. And my mind works that way. Yeah. You know, even when I was examining what the spellers were saying, I was going into old trial lawyer mode.

Right. Did people really see what they thought they did? Did they have a motive to lie? I think my cousin Vinny, you know. With those instinct writs. The laws of physics no longer apply on your stove. You question people's understanding of time or what they think they've seen or conscious motives to lie or subconscious motives that distort what they think they see. So, you know, to begin with this, and people with autism kind of deep enough in the spectrum to be non-speaking are very open to influence.

You can say a word and they'll repeat it. So the immediate problem is how do we know whether that's their thought or they just picked up a thought and they're running with it. In the early days of spelling efforts, and these go back to like the 1990s, in order to help the spellers, the spelling facilitator, it could be a parent, it could be a health care professional, would take the arm of the speller and move it to the board. Now, sometimes they did that well-meaning because certain people with autism don't feel their limbs at times. There's a disconnect with the body and sometimes just a sense of touch helps stimulate the connection, you know? So it was well-meaning, but if they're at a spelling board spelling and you have a hand on them, it's obviously suspect. The techniques were poor. So there were about 40 peer-reviewed studies that said, hey, there's no way you can know this.

The techniques are obviously problematic and all of that. Some people didn't give up on the concept. So you get past 2000 and certain organizations dedicated to spelling spring up and they said, let's change the way we do it. Let's make it. There's no touch at all. You never ask leading questions. they've got to learn to cut a neural circuit and make their arm move to the letterboard.

And it takes some time, but once they get it, they get more proficient at it. So once that happened, there's now more than 100 peer-reviewed studies that essentially say, look, facilitated communication is kind of an umbrella term for it, really works. We've underestimated their verbal abilities. One of the leaders has been the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia. And they are, you know, they're going after all those old studies. But now a lot of other universities have picked this up. UCLA, Boston University.

I'm going to mention Vanderbilt. They're involved in this. I feel like if we say Vanderbilt, there should be angelic music in the back, Vanderbilt or something. Oh, my brother played quarterback at Vanderbilt, so go doors. So there we go. And at the time we're recording, we, as I, for a couple teams, I went to San Diego State from a master's, so the Aztex lost embarrassingly to North Carolina at this point in the tournament. And rumor is, I was there on the basketball team.

The story keeps getting more insane about Nate's basketball career. I want to say something real quick, Joe. And I think that to save some time here for our listeners, too, like, obviously it's blurry. You know, people know that if you're on our show, we're moving past the, you know, the typical conversation. And I think if you're a skeptical person, you can go listen to the telepathy tapes and kind of quench the skepticism and kind of hear the data. I think what we're interested in is sort of like going a little bit beyond that and saying, you know, it's interesting that parents are getting like a 90 to 95 percent prediction. Like if they're looking at a word, their autistic child knows this. This is happening, right?

And I think we believe that it's happening. And I think our show, it's like, we hear this stuff all the time. And my first question is, you know, you were talking about, like, real question about this. You were talking about how they kind of get more of a color of a feeling about what you're saying, whereas sometimes people come on our show and say something was directly communicating to me. Like, I could hear a direct communication. That's not what's happening here. It's a bit more, or is it?

The thing is it varies. I'm reluctant to say it works this way. I've seen it happen in dreams. Sometimes meetings take place at what they call the hill. And that's going to be a new concept for people. You want to know about the hill. Listen to the telepathy. I learned about the hill.

We were in a spelling session and a few people from other places. There have been books written about them, Josiah from Josiah's Fire. and Houston, his mom wrote the Book of Heaven. I've gotten very friendly with the parents and all that. We had Cody on a Zoom call with them, and they were all seeing with their spelling facilitators, and they're all, you know, doing their thing,

and whoever's with them is speaking what they're spelling. And toward the end, I think it was Houston, said to Cody, you should join us on the hill tonight. That's the first reference I ever heard. And Cody responds, I'd like to. It's so hard to go there and then come back to my body and the chains on it. So all of a sudden when we're going really blurry here, right? Yeah.

So the next spelling session, we're with his spelling facilitator. I said, Cody, could you, like, what was that the hill? Could you tell me about that? And he spells out, ask, and he gives the name of his facilitator, ask her, she's been on the hill. And we all look at her and the color literally drained from her face. And she said, 10 years ago, I had a dream. And in this dream, I was on this beautiful hillside and Jesus was there. I could see his face distinctly. And it was an actual hill. And it was the most peaceful, perfect place I've ever seen. And she leans towards skepticism, which makes this more

compelling. And Cody then says to her with no further comments from her, the children you saw there all had autism. And she goes, right, there were children all over the place. Wow. So apparently they come from around the world, they'll talk about my friend in New Zealand or things like that. So it's not heaven. They're clear about that. But at some place where their spirit or soul, whatever the right word, would be disconnects from the body. And they go there and they just communicate in thought. So the spelling facilitator said, why was I allowed to see that?

And Cody said, you were allowed to see that because Jesus knew you'd be working with us and he wanted you to know what we experience. The very next day, another speller, and they don't talk to each other. They can't text, they don't own phones, they can't speak to each other. And the next day I asked this next speller,

Do you know about the Hill? And he answers me. I'm not ready to talk about it. Ask the facilitator, she's been there. And we just, like, looked at each other and smiled. And when I told, you know, Kai about this on the telepathy tapes, I'm thinking, wow, this is going to be really big news to her. And in episode seven, where I had this conversation with her, she kind of laughed and she said, it was clear Joe was hearing about the Hill for the first time.

He didn't know I've been hearing about this in dozens. of cases. So there's this place they call the Hill. And again, it's not quite heaven. Some of them have an awareness that heaven is not too far away, a celestial city, whatever it might be. I don't know. So, you know, there's this whole dynamic to it, but it's hard to know how much of this is clear. There's still an important question whether we should believe them or not. The Hill. It's like kids today, just sit around, connect with their buddies and play Fortnite. But all the autistic kids are like meeting, meeting on this hill at night.

This is part of the reason that, you know, that I wanted Joe to come on, the show in the first place, is this show, you know, we talk about the telepathy tapes. It's taken off. It was a top five. It was probably currently a top five podcast. It was number one. It was number one.

It displaced Joe Rogan. And the thing it's wild about that in our conversations, too, was that when you were talking to Kai, you would talk about how, when we were having our conversations, between us, you were saying that you had that there's a great opportunity to really talk about the gospel and the way that these kids experience Jesus. And that because of the host's leanings and her beliefs, that part gets completely removed

from the show. Well, it's like a lot of these, this is kind of why we started blurry creatures because a lot of these podcasts, they stay strange and paranormal. That's fun. That's interesting. But the moment you start to like incorporate like more of a explanation. bring Jesus into the conversation. It's like, oh, can't do that.

Right. It shuts it down and it's sad because there's so much evidence that you've talked about where these kids are experiencing having, you know, encounters with Jesus. But that's not going to make it on to a podcast like that. Because it's just, then you cut off half your audience, you know, make the money and all the other things. And then you're just kind of not taken serious by, I guess, half the population they just think i don't know but i tend to think also in that in that range

like if they were saying they were meeting with buddha or mohammed or something that would have a tricky subject because some of the spellers say that there are deceptive spirits who try to imitate angels satan can appear as an angel of light you know do you think do you think do you think they are because we've talked on the show a lot about or not a lot but i mean at in in various episodes about out-of-body stuff. So astral projection, we talked to former witches that have done this. We also talked to a former witch that basically said that it's biological. You can actually train your body how to do it.

It isn't necessarily ritualistic, but we have the ability to send our spirit places. And it happens by accident sometimes. Some people can get near-death experience. They get jolted out of their body. And, yeah, just this episode, this last week, was about a near-death experience. And he was saying there's a silver cord connected to being my physical body and my spirit. And it's almost like you have this leash where you can go out. And if they have that and they know how to do it because of their,

because they sort of have to think about how to communicate and live life in a different way than normal people do, maybe they can just go out of their body and meet on this hill. That's kind of what you're describing. Yeah, I'm going to take a brief detour on this. Okay, sure. But there's reason for it. So I think what you guys are doing is so important. that when Luke reached out, I immediately sensed in my spirit, you know, that God was behind this

and I was eager to come here and be with you. I feel like there's a giant jigsaw puzzle. And people like Mike Heiser, I'm a big Mike Heiser fan. And I've taught from his books. And, you know, it was a great loss for us that is not here. I feel like Heiser, was the kind of the visionary to say to us, hey, there is a big puzzle here. Here's a frame. Here's a theme. And now we're taking pieces and we're trying to fit them. And as we do that, hey, there's a house over here. Hey, there's a lake here and a mountain here. We're not always putting all the pieces in the right places. But the more we do this, the more we start seeing the connectivity. Like the message these speakers, these autistic young men and women give is very much about the work of Jesus in the world today, his soon return.

They're very similar to messages that, and you all did a show on this, it was a good show. You had a guest talking about how Jesus appears to Muslims and Muslim countries in dreams, in visions, and all of them. And that's been documented. There's a good book. It's called... Is this a version of that? Yes. That's what I'm talking about these connections in the puzzle.

There's similarities to the appearances and the things they hear. And so it's almost as if God is doing something in the world today, he's using unlikely instruments. You know, 1 Corinthians 1. 1.1, he's using the foolish things of the world. That should be in quotes, because maybe they're the right things. The foolish things of the world to confound. the wise or you know you see when the prophet Samuel you know knew that King Saul was rejected in Israel and David's father is you know bringing all his sons there and then don't you have another

one you know and David comes in from the field Samuel says something like you know man looks at don't look at his outward appearance man looks at the outward part God sees the heart and I think sometimes these autistic young men and women have a kind of heart, and this part, this stretches my theology. I'm orthodox, little O, in terms of my theology, I'm Trinitarian, the Divinity of Jesus, you know, inerrancy of Scripture and all that. A number of them have pre-existent memories. Now, I mean, is, is that possible? I mean, did we? In a sense, we, in a sense, we've all always existed. Certain groups have kind of distorted that

and built doctrines around it that become kind of risky, I think. But it's very possible that we were, we had some pre-existent state where maybe we had some knowledge of what was coming because a couple of them have even told their mothers, yeah, I picked you to be my mother knowing what I was going to go through. Wow.

And this is fascinating to me because you all have talked about C.S. Lewis, and I love C.S. Lewis, the kind of the, you know, the picture of things when we feel like we don't belong in this world, you all know, that I always found that spiritual truth felt to me not so much like learning something new as recognizing something. I became a Christian at 25. I was a skeptic. I was not new age, but I was into mysticism and Asian. I went to a Buddhist temple for over a year in New York City and studied transcendental meditation. I liked existential philosophy. It was very bleak. And I was 25.

And then I had a supernatural appearance. I'm telling you, the presence of God came into the room. It was unlike any experience in my life. There was no question, the reality of it. I felt the Holy Spirit entering me. I didn't even know what it was. I experienced things I had no context for. And then when I met Christians, they said,

oh, yeah, this is what happened. Really? Is that in the Bible? Yeah, it is. I'll show, you know. But all I can say is it wasn't like, sometimes I use the examples like in front of a safe and I'm turning a combination and nothing's happening. And suddenly something falls into place

and it clicks and it opens. Like everything in my spirit, my soul, every part of me knew, this is real. God is real. Jesus is who he said he is. I was reading the gospel of John when it happened, and this presence just came into the room. So I marked that as the beginning of my real Christian life.

And again, there's this recognition. So they get into so many topics that to connect the things that you guys have done, I feel like we're all putting the pieces of the puzzle in and seeing and those connections are fascinating and more of the picture emerges. Occasionally it strikes me that some people are trying to force a puzzle piece in the wrong place.

The color looks similar. But if we quit trying and just stay open as you guys are and ask the Lord, ask the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom and how these connections work, boy God's doing amazing things there's no there's never accidents in the kingdom of God this is crazy and I just want to say this

to be a little vulnerable when I was listening to the telepathy tapes on the way to the studio today and I have about an hour drive between dropping my kids off and here and I was listening to her speak I had a vision of a puzzle and wow and just thinking because I was kind of thinking of how do

I explain what I'm feeling right now because it's like she says when she first gets into it but she calls the camera guy, and she says he's a hardcore materialist. And I kept thinking, you know, there's these people that can see the spirit realm, but the way that they're putting the puzzles down, they don't want to include certain pieces. And that was the thought I had. Wow.

And I think what we try to do is throw the puzzle pieces with Jesus in there and say, this is all connected. We don't have it all. And then here you say that, it's just so wild given the topic we're talking about, but right and that's in the telepathy tapes it's important when I went on it my intention was to give the christian in a biblical perspective yeah these things are not surprising to me I've seen these I these you know they're manifestations of spiritual gifts you know first Corinthians 12 Romans 12 and I was offering that as my perspective of it none of that got into the the you know

into the podcasts because Kai's got a different perspective. And I'm not saying that in a mean or insulting way, and not in the least. I'm just saying she's got a perspective. And the thing that hit me was, gosh, we really need to have a Christian perspective because every speller I have met talks about Jesus, talks about his, he's the hope of the world.

He died for our sins. And I had a concern like, is that going to get out into the culture and is the message going to be, oh, we're part of like a Star Wars force field and we're just connecting to each other. And I was actually praying, you know, Lord, there's got to be a way to get the Christian response or perspective to this. And as I was praying that, I first heard from Luke and I don't know if you recall it, but you said in that one of those early emails, I think we need a Christian or biblical perspective, of a lens to, you know, examine some of this.

And I went, wow, talking about quick answers to prayer. Wow. And the data is that. And I think there's something you said, too, that I think is interesting, like the idea that these kids have pre-memories. And I've actually seen this stuff come up because, like you said, that topic, just to go back, we were talking about, has been hijacked. It's like this, I live these former lives and I had this former.

But if we look at what the Bible says, God says, I knew you before I formed you in here. And there's this idea, so there's this idea that can exist in scripture that doesn't make that heretical or antithetical to the scripture. Right. But it's interesting too that, like, we will try to explain that is, can be. Or it just gets in the reincarnation. That's the problem. That's where it ends up inevitably.

And none of them talk about reincarnation. There's nothing. If anything, they're, you know, they've occasionally been careful to say that that's not the case. Look, we know everything God creates is good. It's good by definition. It's who he is. And in a very real sense, we've all always existed in his mind, even before we were a physical form. And sometimes we say things, I think, the limit our understanding of God.

Like we'll say, oh, we have four knowledge. Well, that may be true from our perspective, but it's misleading in a way because he has all knowledge. Anything that can be known, he knows. And he's in every moment of time. because space and time are artificially created. And by the way, you have to have both. You can't have one without the other. Well, it constrains us, but not him.

This is what it is. I talk about time being linear and the idea that, like, for us, time continues on. And this is the conversation we have. But every good thing he creates, you know, every good appetite, sex is a gift from God, given in the context, we create families.

We partner with God in creating life. Well, it's corruption is lust. You know, it's good to have a desire for food. We need our bodies. It could be corrupted into gluttony or whatever. Every good thing gets distorted because Satan doesn't create anything. The Satan, the adversary, just looks to oppose God. Anything God gives for good.

Like God's apparently given signs in the heavens. You know, the magi knew the time. You know, the heavens declare the glory of God. But that can be perverted or misused. so people who have that interest or that fascination get into astrology. And suddenly there's charts because you were born here. This is your destiny. The stars tell all.

That's a misuse of something. So our tough job is to not throughout the baby with the bathroom, but to say, let's put aside the misuse of it. What's the good that God intended? And if there was something like that, I'm open to it. I, again, want to be cautious because it's been misused. I don't want to explore that with people if it's going to be a problem for them. I don't want my liberty to think about that to stumble the conscience of somebody who's, you know, closed to that.

But I know you guys take heat for that, and I admire you for doing it because I think to some extent we have to, there have to be missteps for truth to come out. We know in part, we prophesy in part. We see, you know, kind of a dark reflection. and persevering through the missteps. A couple puzzle pieces, so to speak. Yeah, you know, if somebody was, you know, I've been teaching for over 45 years, you know, just devouring the Bible

and any courses that they would teach in seminary and all that, have I taught things that were wrong? The question is more, have I taught anything wrong today so far? Countless times, but I would never say, oh, I'm staying away from teaching because it could be misused. know you shepherd gifts that God gives you. You explore, you press in, you correct your course.

It to me is a little like the parable, the talents that are given, and the fellow is one talent. So I knew you were an austere man, so I hid it, I didn't use it. He's called a wicked and foolish servant. And the idea is you try to protect it because you didn't want to misuse it. I think the greater error is to have those and not use them because you're afraid you'll, use them incorrectly. That gets into pride, like, how will I look and do it wrong? There's no humility in that. It's like, be humble and keep letting God correct you, you know? I like that. I mean, what you were just saying reminds me of Heiser, when we first had him on our show, the intro to that

episode was him talking about how David asks God if Saul's going to surround the city, and he says, yes. And he asks him a couple questions. And he said, yeah, he'll do that. He'll do that. And then he does something different. And then Heizer says, you know, God knew the, those things were going to happen, but they didn't happen. You know, so it, I, and I purposely edit that into the intro because it's like, it expands your knowledge of like, okay, God sort of knows the future, gives us a choice, has like, you know, choose your own adventure. All three things could happen and will happen if you do this, this and this.

And but he knows. And I just remember editing that going, man, you know, this whole podcast is going to do that. It's going to push us there. Yeah. And I think what you're describing. and what a lot of people fall in trap beliefs as Christians is all ancient people serve the deity and entity. They had a relationship with a false or a lower Elohim, you know, as Heiser would say.

They had a relation. They were getting something in return. They didn't have a spiritual belief problem. And what we're seeing as cultures were getting into like, oh, the spiritual world exists. Let's go to Burning Man. Let's do all these things. Let's take these drugs and have these experiences. But the ancients, they did all that.

And they knew all that, and they believed all that. The problem is they had the wrong guy at the top. They had the wrong, they were serving the wrong deity. They didn't know who Jesus was. And these autistic kids are saying, I'm meeting with him. We're going out on the hill. We're having moments where we know who the difference is. And you say that they know bad spirits.

So they know the difference between the good ones and the bad ones. Some of them have told me about the importance of testing the spirits. Interesting. That was I was going to ask, was that, is that we've, We've heard, you know, from mostly folks that have done psychedelic stuff, so DMT, ayahuasca, even mushrooms that they access. What we would, the Hebrew, the Hebraic understanding of cosmology would be the second heaven, right? God exists in the third heaven. The second heaven is the spiritual realm, supernatural realm.

And then first is where we live and what would be considered the physical realm. Now we talk a lot on the show about how we believe those things actually interact and are much less defined. but we've talked to folks who said that like this is not on the show but also just personal conversations of folks that said that there's a there's a false Jesus that runs around the second heaven at this ayahuasca camp that many false Jesus

and then we know that you mentioned earlier Satan masquerades as an angel of light you know you have a ton of folks that have these DMT experiences to come back and I experienced God and love and these things but you know I think a lot of us rightfully so in the church should be skeptical of that because there's an accessing of the second heaven in a way that isn't ascribed by God. And those false spirits, they won't confess that Jesus is Lord. It's also interesting to me that it's common with the spellers if somebody tries to ask

them a question. And you can't go up to them in the church lobby and ask a question. It has to be a controlled environment and they have to be feeling relaxed in their bodies. When people have come and ask questions, how often they will say, you shouldn't be asking me. You should be praying and reading your Bible and asking God. It's like they're clear. Don't view me as a divine vending machine. You know, I'm not the Irman and the Thunim you come to me for the yes, no answer. And it's more, they're always pointing people more toward you need to trust God.

In fact, I asked Cody at a spelling right before I left. I said, I'm going to be talking to a lot of people. Is there a message you'd like to give people? Like, there's one thing you wanted to say, what is there, you know? And this is the last thing he spelled when I left the session that he'd like people to know. God is active every day. We dismiss it and look elsewhere for our needs and fulfillment. It's kind of a basic message, but any one of us would know.

that's true. But Cody being in that autistic framework, you know, hearing that, wanting to remind us, God is active every day. Do we really live as if God is active every day? I think he's right. We routinely dismiss it. We look elsewhere for our needs and our fulfillment. You know, I mean, I've been walking this walk quite a while and have learned a lot about spiritual warfare. A lot to me, It's been confirmed about, you know, the Dimon or Dimonia and the demons and all that and their operation and things. And I feel like even with that, it's just still always that process, you know, we're continually pressing in. We really have never surrendered to the degree we think God's always revealing those things to us. What do they describe about Jesus?

This is fascinating. Every one of them whom I've asked, describe, you know, can you describe Jesus? Without exception, every one of them has answered first by saying something like this. He looks like love. He is the presence of God's love. He radiates God's love. Now, if you or I were asked to give a description, you know, what would we say? well, Haid, and he's got a beard or this or that,

their thinking framework goes to the reality of who he is and not something superficial. When I ask further, can you describe him physically? He's average height, dark hair, beard. They all talk about the holes in his hands. The thing they all comment on as well as his eyes. And there seems to be that kind of thing. You know, you see Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

There are times Jesus' eyes are blazing like a fire. There seems to be something in the eyes that communicates both his love but also his displeasure very, very profoundly. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple.

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When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. day. And one time I asked one of the, you know, one of the, a young man I was spelling with, could the holes have been here because there were stories that went around that maybe he had been, you know, crucified in the forearm. There was an old book called, I think a doctor examines, you know, Calvary. And he was saying, oh, the hand wouldn't support it. It was probably the wrist or the forearm. So I asked as one autistic young man, could it have been here, show me

and he got very insistent and he kept hitting the hand like this. Right after that, I was clearing out some old magazines and I found one, an old biblical archaeology magazine about crucifixion. And the article was written by a specialist who's examined remains and found the nails and all that. And he was saying, hey, that stuff about the forearm is misleading.

That came from this guy who wrote a doctor or looks at, you know, at the cross and all. He said the ideal place to crucify terms of support is to go through the hand, and there's some kind of natural anatomical tunnel, where the nail would go through at an angle through the hand, but it would give maximum support, taking example of this anatomical tunnel. So I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, the timing, I hear that,

now I find this article, and they even agree on a picture of what he looks like. A couple of times I've shown filled the table with artistic renditions, do any of these look the most like him? And they all pick out the same photograph, by the way, or painting, pardon me. If anybody's interested, it was done by a young woman. She was still a girl. She might have been, I don't know, 8, 9, 10 when she did it. her name was like achian or something like that there's a there's a painting of uh jesus and he's

smiling you throw that up dan if you yeah he's got not super long hair and and it's a fascinating you know pain but that's the one that they all go to is saying it looks the most like him i boy there's so much here and i know we're going around i just feel like for the skeptics it's important before we end today to maybe touch on why this is reliable why we should even believe this. Well, I was going to ask one question about that. Yeah, please. So when they're meeting, they see Jesus,

is he telepathically communicating with them, or is he speaking to them? It's always telepathic. When we say telepathic, we have to be careful of value-laden words. Some people can import their own meaning of what that is. It's just more that there's knowing,

that they're speaking. Nobody is, yeah, and that's the picture there. nobody is, you know, using words or a mouth, their thoughts are just known. And, you know, the Apostle Paul says in that they will know even as we're known. It's like there's no reason we have to hide anything or disguise things or put on airs or get caught up in pride in how we look and those things. There's just a full open communication. Do you think this has developed sense or just,

or actual spiritual gift. Like, you know, because obviously if you have limited abilities, you're going to work on the one ability you have and grow that. Yeah. Is this like a spiritual gift there? Yeah, I think it is. Again, I understood it in the framework of spiritual gifts, but I'm sure my understanding of spiritual gifts is too narrow.

Yeah. And the same way, you know, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, there's diversities are different gifts. they operate differently. You know, two people have the same gift, but they're different because it gets expressed through one's life experiences, history, you know, family upbringing, or whatever. They have those, you know, kinds of differences. But it seems at times they're even going beyond sort of the lane that I had built for spiritual gifts.

I think sometimes it's not even a good idea to be thinking of it that way. the beginning of 1 Corinthians 12 and Paul says, now, brothers, I don't want you to be ignorant concerning spiritual gifts. The word gifts, the charisma is added to the text. If you have a translation, you'll see it's in italics. The editor's thought to include it for clarity. What he says is something more like he uses a form of the numa, pneumatica.

He says, brothers, I don't want you to be ignorant concerning spiritual. And the word in Greek for spirit, also in Hebrew, Ruach, the same word can be interpreted, spirit, wind, and breath. So you find the spirit of God associated at times with breath. How does God impart spirit to Adam? He breathes into him. The end of the gospel of John before the Holy Spirit falls in Acts chapter 2, So it says Jesus breathed on them and said, receive the spirit.

You see that picked up in like C.S. Lewis's Aslan character will breathe on someone. He's telling us in fictional form, it's an impartation, you know, of the spirit. So Paul's actually saying is something more like, brothers, I don't want you to be ignorant about spiritual things. He's talking more about the idea of a moving of the Holy Spirit in ways. that he'll go on to say encourage, exhort, build us up, he'll use the analogy of the body and all of that. And we being, you know, Americans thinking the way we do, we tend to have categories. Oh, that's this gift. Oh, that's this ability. You know, we almost sometimes I think cheapen the concept a little bit by making them almost like personality traits.

And very often with, I find if the spirit is moving, it's like often gifts combine perfectly soon. to the situation. So, you know, someone can be teaching, and then at the same time, they're encouraging, they're exhorting. They have, they say a particular thing. I've had it countless times. I throw something in. I wasn't planning. And somebody comes up after I'm done teaching, and they go, that's exactly what it was praying. You know, you get it. The Holy Spirit is combining these things, but we, again, want to break things down into categories. The same way we oversimplify, oh, if they're good, they're angels. No, and Angelos is a messenger.

We oversimplify demons, too. The daemon or the demonian. In Greek, it wasn't necessarily a bad spirit. You go through, you know, the dialogues of Plato. Socrates talked about his daimone was his conscience. We now, you call them bad because every time they appear with that word in the New Testament, they're bad. So by conventional usage, okay, we're using demon to mean somebody on the bad side. And the spellers are like reinforcing a lot of these things.

But you've got sort of the little low-lying ones that want the body experiences that push people into anger, hatred, lust, things would be the opposite of the gift of the spirit. But you also have the territorial ones. And you guys have hit on some of this. What is the prince of Persia? What is the prince of Greece and all of the? that and I'll just tell you one quick, the most intense experience I had with the territorial spirit, I was in India on an extended stay. I was on a rotary scholarship. So we were cultural ambassadors.

And we were in one particular state and we went other places, but they were taking us around. You know, it was interesting. We went to a board meeting of the third largest bank in India. and the chairman said, okay, our time is done. They're taking you to meet the witch doctor now. I was thinking, imagine being at a Chase Manhattan meeting, okay, we're done, we're taking you to the psychic. You'll realize they live with the supernatural world.

That's true through many parts of Asia, through Africa. We just have this materialist bias where if you are open to a spiritual dimension, you're somehow unintelligent or something like that. And they took us to this witch doctor who knew things about people. Now, I have no problem. I was already a Christian at that point.

I understood the source of information. And then they took us to an actual devil worship temple. They called it that. And I think I was the only really believing Christian on the trip. And we're walking into these hideous statues and all. And there were priests there, you know, ministering at the temple. So, I mean, I went to them. And I said, can I ask you a question?

and you know you're worshipping devils, right? They have their Elohim there. He said, yes. I said, well, if you know they're devils, why are you worshipping them? And the answer surprisingly made more sense than I thought. He said, well, because they're evil and they trouble us, and we hope that by doing this will pacify them and they'll leave us alone. And I said to him, where I'm from in New York, we call that paying us.

protection to the mob, but the humor got lost in the translation. And then I asked him, is there a, like a chief demon here? And he said, yes, and he pointed to a spot. And I walked toward it. There was a little sort of concrete cinder block structure. It was maybe four or five feet tall and maybe five feet by five. The inside was hollow. And there were all these little trinkets and things that I couldn't quite see. And as I'm walking, I thought, I'm going to pray in the spirit. I'm wondering what's going on here. I don't know how to describe this except to say it was like at one point I walked into a wall of pure evil hatred. It was like ice cold in my spirit. It literally stopped me in my tracks. And I'm looking ahead and I heard the spirits as kind of speaking to me. saying back up and go away. You don't know what you're dealing with.

And I backed away from it the way you would if it was like a rabid dog. I'm keeping my eye on it. And afterward, I'm wondering, what in the world was that? Over time I've come to realize, you know, the one thing I know for certain about the spiritual world is it's incredibly more complex and diverse than any of us will ever guess or estimate.

You know, the Elohim Council suggesting what'll get Ahab into... Yeah, the dictionary of deities and demons is a big book. It's a thick book. And that's what we talk about a lot on our show is that... Yeah. And then, you know, people have a low-level analysis of what's going on and they just throw a word. Good angel, bad, right, right. Yeah, fallen angels.

Aliens are just fallen angels. Right, right, right. Okay, I mean, you know, that... And it's because they don't... want to have to read that big book and go, oh, there's this spirit. You know, Paul doesn't say, we don't battle only with flesh and blood, but against demons. He's like, no, he lists a whole bunch of stuff. And he doesn't even give you, like, specific names.

He just gives you broad principalities, powers, thrones, dominions. That could be endless amounts of entities and creatures and spirits. Right. Some of which is a desire embodiment. And back to the, and back to that. And we've covered that topic a lot. but you said something earlier. It's like you don't want to call it spiritual gifts necessarily.

It's almost like we all have this ability. We all have a spiritual part of us that either's been subdued. We don't believe in it. We haven't developed a relationship with God in that way. What are the gifts of the autistic, the range of things they can do? Because certain autistic kids can do this, and some can do this. They're all varied. They're prophetic.

They're what charismatic traditions would call, word of wisdom, a word of knowledge. They have an understanding of something that's happening to a person. I've seen them tell me things that are about to come. That freaks out some people because they go, wait a minute, you're getting into prophecy and the time thing. That's a human limitation because, again, time is a continuum that exists. We're not surprised that prophets in the Old Testament are, you know, giving great details, where Christ will be born, is triumphal entry in a donkey and all these things. So that dimension can, you know, and they'll say, well, that was only for the Old Testament

to create the books of canon. Well, no. I mean, you find the prophet Agabus with Paul, you know, he foresees a coming famine. And they're storing up to help the church in Jerusalem. That time limit is a thing that we impose on ourselves. Like there was this one young woman, and, you know, I met her dad, and he was kind of a skeptic, and he came to see me, and he said, you know, I've never really prayed to accept Christ, but I'm seeing this. I have no explanation for it. And he came to faith, and he's growing. It's great. And one of the things he told me was she keeps, my daughter keeps warning me, I'm going to fall on ice and get hurt very badly. Please, please, please be careful. Now, we live in Phoenix. You don't.

get many, you don't get many snow storms and ice, right? But he was on a business trip, somewhere in the Midwest, and then forget, he texted me. He said, Joe, you're not going to believe this. I'm in a hospital. There's my last night here. I was going back to my hotel. There was a patch of black ice. I couldn't see it. I slipped. I'm in a hospital. They're putting hardware in my hip right now. He even sent me pictures of the, of the x-rays. And he said, this is unbelievable. So at times they'll know things. At times they'll give warnings.

They're not necessarily going to happen. Look, Jonah goes to Nineveh, right? He doesn't say, oh, you better get your act together, it's going to be bad. He says, 40 days, and it's the hammer. You're done. You're toast. Was he wrong? No.

He was stating the principle of what had to happen based on their behavior. We know from archaeology, they were incredibly wicked and cruel. and the whole city repents, and Jonah, knowing the character of God, soaks. That's why I didn't want to do this. I knew they were going to repent and you were going to forgive them. So sometimes there are things that are talking about the natural order of God, what's going to come, their warnings. So they absolutely are in that space, but they know things about people.

They discern spirits. They see things happening in church activities. pretty much all the spiritual gifts. I've not seen any of them like pray for healing and somebody getting physically healed or something like that. But in terms of things that can be known, they're really active.

And we still never got to why we should believe them. Well, I want to ask two questions first on this is that you have, you've got spellers in your congregation. You're obviously, you're an expert because you went on telepathy tapes to talk about this. do they ever tell you my two questions are real basic but it's like how

do they describe them going to the hill how does that how does that happen or how do you how do you believe that happens and the other thing is why my big question is why why do you think or why do they say what do they say about why autistic folks

have this ability that's that is special it seems it's much different than most of us that aren't on that aren't on the spectrum that don't go to the hill that don't necessarily now seeing the spirit or as you say I know folks do claim that that are not on the spectrum but but like have you have they said how they how they leave their bodies to do this

or how that happens with the processes and maybe why you believe this subset of people have this unique ability they don't give details on the process we wish we could get it yeah the process of spelling is so slow and deliberate it's hard for them to give a lot of details But they all say that they've always seen into this world. They have since they were in their cribs. And they get used to the idea pretty quickly that they see things that other people don't. So they just learn to function that way. Their axis there, on the one hand, seems to be a grace of God,

a kind of strengthening for people who have this really difficult life. That's a biblical principle. You know, in times of suffering, God seems. to give a special grace. You know, in Acts 7, when Stephen is being, you know, executed by stoning, it's as he looked up into heaven. And he said, I see the heavens open and I see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. You find times, you know, Paul on the ship, an angel, the God I served, appeared to me last night. He's going to give us all the lives on the ship. There just seem to be times that God meets us in human weakness and maybe gives us a special grace

or so. And I get the sense that that's happening with them, that they have a difficult life, but every one of them has told me they use the word herald. If you or I use that, that would sound really egotistical. They don't mean it that way. Every one of them has told me, we're supposed to be herald. We're supposed to share the message of the gospel with the world, and this is the time. And I've asked them, how did you always think that when you could speak and nobody knew you were there. They never doubted it for a moment because they had heard it from the Lord and they knew it would happen and now this is just the time for it. They knew God would make the way and the message would get out. It could be part of an end time movement. You know,

we maybe were the generation, it'll see the second coming. God wants every generation to have that anticipation. Obviously we don't set dates. Right. But, but, But we'll want to have that sense of imminency like it could happen. And between what's happening in the Muslim world and other pieces of the puzzles that I'm seeing personally, it looks to me like there's a pattern of God doing something in the earth that's preparing the world for something really dramatic to come. I don't know what it is. I stay open and all. Do you feel like they're just accessing a different part of their brain that gives them this?

Lane? Great question. So they don't, and I'll say a non-material dimension. I hate calling it a spiritual dimension because that suggests this kind of strict separation. Let's just call it a spiritual dimension as a placeholder. I think something happens deep into the autism spectrum. There have in studies, and I kind of go into this a little bit in my book where if somebody loses one sense, the brain actually undergoes a kind of rewiring to heighten remaining senses. If you've ever tried to feel braille dots, they feel like almost nothing. But somebody who doesn't have sight, that person will often have an extra sensitive sense of touch. Helen Keller, you know, blind and deaf developed senses so profound that she would listen to music.

She would feel the vibration. She would put her fingers on your throat and try to make out words. She went to college. She studied Latin, you know, and this part is freaky. I don't know if I've seen accounts of this. I don't know if it's anecdotal or not. But she loved flowers. And there are accounts that say she would put her hand over a flower and know the color.

That's crazy. And now you and I would say, come on. But, you know, if Bigfoot is brown, it's because he's absorbing every light band on the spectrum and reflecting brown, she might have been able to detect something. So this is a tough part. And I've talked to people with physics backgrounds on this. And the science department at Grand Canyon University wants to really get into this and have a conference on this. I think it would be fascinating.

And there's brilliant physicists there. They're talking about things I'm not getting. But they get the idea that all matter is energy. Matter and energy are interchangeable, equals MC squared, and all that. It seems like when you get deep enough into the autism spectrum, one person described, I'm not going to do it justice. I can hold up pretty well with theology or law, but I'm way over my head, so I'm probably going to use the wrong terms and everything. So just bear with this highly imperfect effort to describe it. Yeah. It's like we have a filter or a barrier or a layer

for our physical bodies because we live in a physical world. We wake up, we have to drive the kids to school and get dressed and shave or do whatever we do. Well, you guys don't have to shave. But we necessarily interact with the physical world. And this barrier kind of limits that access in most people because these things are more pressing for survival. And people with non-speaking autism disconnect from their bodies. They sometimes don't even feel the body.

I say that because I had a traumatic brain injury, and I had that for about two hours. I was out of my body. And so when you were talking about this, I'm like, if they have access to a different part of their brain, they can leave, they had this. Did that happen to you? Yeah, yeah.

And I was too young to really understand what was happening. It was like they say out of body experience. And then it took a couple years later to go, that's exactly what happened. I was like watching myself sit on, because it was in football game, hit my head. And I couldn't remember. Oh, I thought it was in your NBA.

Yeah, NBA. Hearing this again, remind you. It makes a lot of things make sense. But I wonder, often we talk about, like, you know, the three rebellions in Scripture, that Eden was a loss of something. And it was a gain, we gained the knowledge, but we sensed there was a loss as well. And if you think about all the rebellions that Heiser talks about, they're all a sort of a physical thing. You have this genetic rebellion in Genesis 6.

You have this loss of immortality in the beginning. And then you have this Tower of Babbel. we can't communicate all of a sudden. Right. It's all like the sin or the rebellion caused a physical change. Yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing is we all access it at times. I've, you know, had conversations with the most hard-boiled cessationists.

And, you know, nobody else is around and they'll look, you know, kind of like Nicodemus at night. They'll lower their voice and they'll say, I will say, this happened to me. And everybody has a story. You know, the phone rings. I think of Aunt Sally I've not seen, and then it's Anne Sally. They've all got these stories. What happens is instead of realizing they're accessing some interdimensional reality, they default to the normative and basically the ethos of the culture,

which is, oh, materialism, rules. So it doesn't fit easily in the paradigm, so it gets pushed aside. Yeah, you know, when we're doing trial work, you realize the most important part of a trial is actually your opening statement to a jury or even jury selection. Because what happens is if you cast a narrative that people hold on to, the mind acts like a filter. The things that are going to get through the filter, those are going to resonate most closely with that initial idea.

The confirmation bias, right? The confirmation bias. If it doesn't line up, it's less likely to make it through. It can, but it's harder. There's that cognitive dissonance. I think we have so strong a materialistic bias that even when people experience those things, their first reaction is, oh, that's not normative, doesn't fit, I'm shoving it aside. I think people deep in the autism spectrum, just there's something in the brain wiring,

there's something about the barrier or filter, whatever you want to call it, that gives them access to, that dimensional aspect it's hard to even find it's like they're kind of born in that with that ability to go there yeah a lot of a lot of normal like I say us I mean I mean like

neurotypical they'd say we do drugs to get there right which is an altering the brain and people go well are you actually going somewhere on DMT or is it just happening in the mind right and we would say both you know like after doing the show for five years It's usually all the above is happening.

Well, I'm sure you guys know, the Greek word for it's often translated sorcery is a variation of pharmacopoeia. Pharmacia. The idea of, right, it's associated with drugs. So maybe they just have this from birth, because some of them say in this, that they knew in the womb, they had this ability. Well, not in the womb, but they, I never met somebody who maybe said I remember the womb, but from the time that they, from the womb.

can form a memory or think about things they have a existence that goes back before even the womb that they're in some heavenly aspect where they have knowledge of how they're going to be born I mean one that's crazy person you know even said to me I'm I'm usually reluctant to even talk about this because he'd be so misunderstood that she was offered the choice do you want to glorify me in this body that's going to have all these problems, but I'll use you for my purposes. And this is a fascinating thing, the correlation between a willingness to suffer, which is that comes to the fullness in the life of Jesus. You know, when Paul is struck blind on the road to Damascus, he's there and God taps a

local disciple on the shoulder and says, go and tell him. And the Lord gives him a message to this effect, and I must show him what great things he must suffer for my sake. Paul's willingness to embrace that suffering allowed God to use him. So you almost wonder these people we've written off because they can't speak, or they're autistic. They made me more profoundly walking with God than any of us know. And I would just say this to everybody, families right now. you've got a child who's autistic or there's whatever cerebral palsy. There's initially kind of a despair for parents.

And when parents discover something you all like to put it, rearranges the furniture in your head. When that happens and they see that they're entrusted with a child who has these extraordinary gifts, the reaction I always see, they break down in tears, this transformation of, my son, my daughter is not a burden. This is a profound responsibility. It changes the family dynamics.

It changes the commitment to the marriage. One of the things we want to do is develop materials that we're going to make available to people free to help marriages survive with special needs kids to get help. Spelling can be expensive. We want to help families and minister to them and see how much this can come to fruition.

Joe, I got a quick question, though. Like, your context is in, is really been inside the faith, inside the church with believing parents. Have you had any contact with spellers that are not believers? And do they have a similar, because I'm talking to the hill, meeting with Jesus is very much like a. Sounds like they get converted.

Do they, do they? I mean. Great, great question. One of the, again, this goes to why they're reliable, which we still have to. We have to get to that. Yeah. is that, oh, well, they're in church.

They've hung out in churches, and they've heard these things. So naturally, they're talking about it. They're projecting their church experiences. Not so. I mean, I'm thinking of one young man and his mother now is a Christian, but she would say I wasn't living in faith. We weren't going to church. I got awakened to this when he's telling me about Jesus

and talking about things. the Bible. It's a Muslim dream, right? This is, this is the, this is what I love. This is the Muslim woman. No, but I mean, but this is the connection. We've talked about is that even for non-believers, right, behind, behind, you know, behind the caliphate, right, that are having these dreams about Jesus. They're not believing, but their reality is changed because they experience Jesus, right?

And that's where I see, so we talked about. A couple. And remember that Jesus, you know, Issa and the Quran is heart. highly revered. He's considered the greatest prophet short of Muhammad. They believe he did the miracles and all that. A lot of the conversions, it's interesting, they retain Muslim trappings, a skull cap. They go to the mosque, but they're reading the New Testament. You know, there's a lot of interesting dynamics to this. So the way, you know, the telepathy tape puts it is, well, they tend to see God in their religious tradition. the spellers warn that there are deceptions at the hill and that not everybody at the hill is a follower of Jesus. Now what that means and what the dynamic is, I have no idea and I'm not going to, I'm going to be more cautious about speculating there because you get into issues of what it means to be saved, for example.

So there's something fascinating about that that they have, but, The ones... Do they all go to the hill? They all go to the hill and they go whenever they want to. That's wild. I asked Cody one time as, you know, kind of like they have hot tickets to a playoff game. If you get an extra ticket, can you invite me? It'd be kind of boring to hang out here if you could go there.

Yeah, and Cody said to me, oh, well, you're going to go to the hill. First, I'm all excited like, all right, but then he added, I just don't know if it's this side of life or after. You're like, thanks, bro. Well, I'm still hoping. You know, I still have nighttime before I go to bed sometimes. We'll say, how about tonight, Lord, the Hill, maybe? Well, I talk about this all the time on the show, but it kind of, one of my favorite 80s movies is Field of Dreams, right?

Yeah, yeah. And there's some people that can see the players on the field. And then he gets mad because he's like, I want to go out in the corn. He's like, you know, you want to stay. Only James Earl Jones got invited, right? Yeah, yeah. But there's this, like, difference. And so what you have here in a way is kind of.

like I love that movie because it it just sort of outlines how humans think about things and you have some people that believe and you have some people that believe a lot and some people have yet to see signs to believe so you have the telepathy tapes which is like we believe in spiritual things and something spiritual is happening and there's this whole other world that we don't understand but they stop at Jesus they stop at adding that and then you have Christians on the other side we believe in this spiritual story we believe that God raised you know son from the den and and he came back for us. But humans don't have this ability.

So there's a skepticism on both sides. We have two even spiritual camps who believe in spiritual ideas. And then there's this lane in the middle where you're like, they're all going to a hill. Every speller that I've met talks about Jesus and what God is doing. I mean, they're fully gospel messages.

And even, you know, I just met a, I keep meeting new couples and there's spellers. I recently met J.D., who's 12 years. old and his parents live in Illinois. I hear from all over the country. After this, I can't even imagine. And I try to speak to all of them. And, you know, we've set up Zoom calls or whatever. And they're telling me, look, I mean, we're Christians, but this is something different. JD just, we showed him aboard when we heard about this with letters on it. And he just tore into it

and they're recording everything that he's saying. And the first message they sent me, you know, J.D. is talking about Jesus and his beauty and God's plan of salvation. He's the only way to the Father. And he's 12 years old. And the parents are like looking at each other asking, what has God entrusted us with here?

Where is this going to go? Because they have really hard experiences. We want to really love them and help them and be sympathetic. Because when you have a kid with non-speaking autism, it's hard to go in public. They'll act up. They'll yell. You can't just go to a restaurant easily. Are they seeing things at restaurants and places that cause that behavior, you think?

Very, very possibly. Some of them I've seen on occasions are acting up somewhere. they're having, the expression they use is they get dysregulated. And afterward, the parents will tell me, you know, this boy or the girl saw all kinds of demonic activity and it was very hard for them. You know, they've said to me often, seeing angels is a great blessing, not seeing demons. And they get the sense of hatred from the demons. and, you know, I'll counsel them and I'll say, you know, the demons said this, but remember what Jesus said, the devil's the father of lies.

When he lies, he speaks his natural language. And they're getting to understand that. They're also getting to see they have authority in the name of Jesus to take, to remove them, you know, to cast them out. And also fascinating, this will have to be another time, the demons hate spelling. They hate it. They try to attack the people who help with spelling. They try to use every kind of thing. Why do they hate spelling so much?

Well, for one thing, it's transformational that we see every human being in the image of God. We're hearing the testimony that they have for us. We're seeing God moving in incredible ways. In fact, when one speller said to me, demons don't want to be known they try to hide they hate spelling for that reason i said oh there's another chapter in the book yeah demons want to hide why they hate spelling you know if they don't want it well in as believers we should want it we should want the word to get out and i know a lot of parents

with special in these kids and it's not just autism with where these things happen it happens i mean i have one woman and i haven't confirmed this yet telling me she's seeing it with young men and with Down syndrome. I don't know. I don't know the dynamic. That's a genetic issue. So again, still a lot. There's not a week that goes by, guys,

that I don't have a surprise and the furniture gets rearranged again, you know? Yeah, what's the most impactful thing you've learned through this whole experience? The one thing that you heard or changed you the most. Yeah, boy, great question. I think it's really deepened my compassion

where I always cared about special needs ministry and families. But that was usually writing a check to Johnny and friends or something like that. I feel like God's called me into a ground game to be doing life with people, to be there when someone passes, to be there when I feel like it's, you know, those people who are kind of on the streets helping, and the hardcore drug addicts and things like that. That's not an easy place to be. It's nice to exist in a theoretical, academic world

on issues and debate Calvinism versus Armenianism and all that. And that's nonsense to God. God wants us loving people entering into their lives and their space and not discounting anybody. When we discount people with disabilities and bear this in mind, The horrific Nazi exterminations that started in the 30s started with people with disabilities.

They have a statist view. You know, everything is in the state, for the state, nothing can exist outside the state. That was Mussolini's formula. It was a Stalinist formula and all that. And those people did not contribute to the state. And so they could be executed. That is a horrific anti-God philosophy. It drives more than we know.

How do the parents react when they're in the OBGYNN office? And the doctor says the test doesn't look good, right? What drives us as Christians, you know? I know my daughter and son-in-law, you know, had five kids and their view is the same as my wife and I. You could do or not do a test. We don't care. We're not doing anything.

And all to say, I should have done this sooner. My daughter and her homeschool friends in Phoenix or a huge blurry creature fan. My oldest grandson, Jack, is a big blurry creature's fan. So a shout out to Leanne Jack and all of you, wonderful homeschool moms in Phoenix who are blurry creature fans. Keep with it, keep going on.

My son's Jack. That was my kind of high mom moment, right? You know, I love this conversation because... Oh, I still want to get to the... Well, no, I know. I just want to say something real quick. I don't wrap up, but I don't want to wrap. I want to keep going.

a lot of when I grew up in the church you know a lot of the debate was what about people in the history who haven't had they've been cut off from the gospel and didn't have access to the Bible how would they know about the gospel in Jesus how would they become saved and it it just seems on this show

there are no boundaries borders in the kingdom of heaven the gospel can go anywhere it wants to go to autistic kids to Muslims to natives of all all race and religion, Jesus shows up. He comes and he meets with people. Absolutely. And there's a probably, and I love missions. Probably the best single book I read on missions was called Eternity in Their Hearts by Don Richardson, who was the author of Peace Child, his bringing the

gospel to tribes that have been cut off from civilization in Papua New Guinea and the breakthroughs that happened. And in eternity in their hearts, he kind of wrestles with that question to the extent you could at that time. He's a kind of an, he's no longer with us. He was an academic guy. And he collected all of these stories about this tribe in a remote area of Thailand who the missionaries came and they said, oh good, you're here to tell us how to find God. How did you know that? We had the prophet in the village who said when the two tall men come with the black book, they're going to show you. I mean, these stories are all around. I heard them from friends in Hawaii, how they were expecting the God of light to come and bring the real truth, the

truth of God, and kind of override with the cannibal headhunters from another island had brought the darkness that they brought to the islands. These stories are all over the world, and he collected them. So again, I think God works in a dimension of the human heart in ways we just don't get. And his judgment on these things is just perfect beyond beyond our comprehension that's amazing because like you know what the responsibility is ours right is to take the gospel to the end of the earth yes but god is not we're not relieved of that responsibility but god isn't not limited by that right like he's not if we don't reach the folks in papa new guinea god still cares right god was still i love that we just actually have a um a members episode

that will probably it will be out by the time that we release this but john read sounds like it's your story he's real recent in the Amazon and has a dream about a man with a white beard in this remote village that comes out and says you're gonna tell me what happens when we die. And then he shows up at the village. They're supposed to be hostile.

Man with a white beard comes out and says, I had a dream about you. You're supposed to tell me what happens when I die. And then there's a miracle that happens. I'm not going to ruin it if you haven't listened to the episode yet. And God is there. God has been there before he was there. And he's telling these people,

in the same way you talk about the Hawaii and every other that God is coming and he's preparing. And I love that. I think it's such an interesting, it breaks our paradigms. It even shows up in scripture, the story of Paul and Athens

where he mentions the memorial to the unknown God. There was a story that Greeks knew. It was in their history. There was a prophet named Epaminitus from Greek who came to Athens to help them sacrifice to an unknown God to stop a plague. and he basically had a kind of a gospel understanding. We've offended a God.

We don't know. We have to ask for his mercy and forgiveness and believe. And they erected these memorials to remember that incident. And Paul would have known to that because he quoted Epaminus in other places. And so when he said, oh, the memorial after the unknown God, that clicked a memory for them of that story, which was a gospel context. that Paul built on. So those things are all over the world. Joe, this is like a huge podcast, and they do a very good job of applying the scientific method throughout the show. And, you know,

any documentarian, because that's what she is, you know, who produces this podcast, they look at all the data and they have this scientific method and they try to stay true to it. You know, the first time she meets with the family, she sets up all the parameters so that nobody can be in on the hoaxed if they're hoaxing. her, right? That these kids are communicating telepathic. Why do you think this Jesus aspect just gets edited out of all of that? Why do you think that happens? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a personal philosophy, a personal view. I don't think it's in any way intended to be hostile to faith. I think there's a genuine search for truth taking place, but I think if somebody doesn't start with

that perspective, it's difficult to. to hear for the reasons that maybe the gospel is difficult for any of us. We have a bad experience in church. We have a misunderstanding. Things happen. So I think what the telepathy tapes does instead doesn't pretend it's not there. It's trying to understand it by expanding the paradigm and making that portion fit into the expanded paradigm, which is more inclusive. which maybe has a few immoral demands on how we act and how we behave. Ambiguous.

Yeah. Yeah, it's more ambiguous. But I, you know, I hope and pray for a lot of people it's a first step toward finding the truth. I don't know how our time is, but I could hit the why this is reliable. That's about to ask you, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I want to know, so like, I mean.

Let me do that because we talk about all these things. We probably still have listeners who were saying, but why should I even believe this? okay, here's, we'll do this rapid fire. So when I first learned of this, I wanted, you know, should we believe this? So I did a deep dive into autism. I started reading sites and researching and all that, bolstered by the more than 100 studies that say this spelling is authentic,

that spelling now, it clearly hits up. So they kind of dispelled those early skeptical studies that still get repeated and quoted with people. It was, oh, no, there's nothing to that. I would urge, this is a great CDC site. So there's a government site, perspective, presuming autistic communication, competence, and reframing, facilitated communication. More and more they're finding it.

So then I thought, okay, are they telling the truth? As you study autism, people with deep into the autism spectrum are among the most honest people you will ever meet. There are some studies that even say they are incapable of lying. They don't seem to be incapable, but oddly you'll find other studies that say when they lie and they're consciously doing it, it's a kind of a therapeutic break. Well, I mean, they get bad if their parents say, we have no more potato chips in the house and they're like, I know you do. Did you hear that part of that? That was a funny part.

Like one of the kids liked potato chips. Her mom's like, we're out. And one of the reasons is lying takes some sophistication. Yeah. If I want to lie to you, you know, Nate, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to. going to look at you, there's something I want to get you to do that helps me. Yeah. My calculator brain, my computer brain is making dozens of split-second assumptions.

I'm looking at you, your history, how you reacted to everything I said that I could think of, what motivates you, how I've heard you. Yeah. How I can frame it. They can't do that. They lack those non-verbal. They don't even look at you. They look away from you.

Or Joe. they know the truth exists. So how can they lie when they know that when they have a whole framework of everyone can read everyone's mind? You can't lie, right? They're among the most honest people you will meet and they hidden away so long

and it's such an effort to spell. They don't want to waste time lying. They want you to know who they are and what they're about. But what does it require to lie? You have to be able to say something and that person can't prove that that happened or not, or you thought that or not, or you said that or not.

But it seems as though they have access to all the information. So lying to them, you know, I think would be like a step backwards. Anybody can, you know, do Internet research and you'll see the connection between honesty. Okay, so that takes us to the next question. Yeah. Well, they're honest, but are they really seeing what they're seeing? Yeah, yeah.

Or even do they have a motive to see something that's in play? hear, you know, have they not perceived correctly or all those kind of questions come up. So you look at that, and this is another way to look at it. And this is kind of traditional apologetics on the resurrection. Oh, you know, skeptics. Oh, maybe the disciples were lying so they wanted to spread their brand of religion. It's kind of elementary apologetics. It makes no sense that they're going to lie when they don't gain anything.

They're being persecuted for it. They really believed what they saw. That's like a half-war show. That's where we live, you know. Yeah. So, you know, people would lie for financial gain, right? They're disconnected from the financial world. If there's money for them, they're usually in special trusts.

They're never going to have credit cards or write a check or things like that. People would lie for attention. I've had people ask, well, what if they want the attention? They like it. You're right. Talking about them. people with non-speaking autism hate attention it's all over the place i've gone on autism boards where they are able to speak to each other and what they say is they hate being the center of attention

because it's traumatic they remember when they were young and they were singled out and made fun of they'll say things like yeah my birthday i hide in the closet i don't want anybody to see me they want to be alone they don't like stimulation they don't like loud noises bright lights, you know, they, if anything, they loathe attention. And so you go through all, you know, you might lie to help a friend out of a hot, a tough spot or this or that. Well, what about are they seeing something that's not there? Are they hallucinating?

Nothing about autism is associated with hallucination. Hallucinations could be a tumor or biochemical imbalance. Not only are those absent, you now continually have them all seeing. the same things the same day. They know things about people. The things they say are accurate. I mean, we've had days that, you know, a day apart, three, four spellers will come in. And they don't talk. They don't text each other. They'll come in and they're looking around. And every one of them will say, there are four angels in the room here today. Wow. Or one time they came in, there was a person. They were describing there's a demon on her head.

and the angels not fighting to get it off. They not only interact with the spiritual world, all their senses engage. It's not only, you know, I remember the first time one of the spells came to me and said, please tell me about incense. I spelled incense and gave me the name of the incense.

I actually went online to check it out. It was something like Amarith, and there's a spelling variation of it made in some monastery. Now, again, the furniture is getting rearranged in my brain. I get seeing, I get hearing. It's like they smell. And then I started thinking, okay, who had visions and who was in heaven? Okay, John and Revelation, Ezekiel, they both get given a scroll.

They hold a scroll, touch. They're both told to eat the scroll, and the scroll is sweet in their mouth, right? taste why should it be that smell doesn't operate and I've asked others about it and they all smell incense they've all said it's stronger when angels are fighting for us and angels are fearsome creatures and there's more of them and they're stronger than demons good news I'll give you a little sneak preview we get to that someday and and they've said as well when people are praying and God's releasing angels. It's more active. And I thought, this is fascinating because there are two places in Revelation, chapter 5 and I believe chapter 8, where incense is present in

heaven. There's a bowl. That's right. The prayers. And it's brought there by angels and it's described as the prayers of the saints. And there's something about those scenes where, you know, the incense gets that connection. And there's something. seeing insights into those kinds of things. So everything that they've said has, I've not, I've never found a single thing that violates scripture. There are areas that scripture doesn't speak expressly where it's stretched to my brain into another shape, but it's never been unbiblical at all extols Jesus. He's the king of kings, the Lord of Lords. He's the only way to be saved. He's a gift to us from the father.

You know, they all say that, and they want the world to know it. So they are honest by nature, whether, for a variety of reasons, perhaps, they don't like, don't need financial gain, and they don't like attention, you know, so you can kind of lay out this framework. Also, I think in the sense of the resurrection of Christ's example, too, you have more than 500 witnesses. So from a data points, you have. Right.

this is what I love about data is you have these unconnected people that are not on don't have phones or not on the internet that tell the same story without interconnected without the influence and they were telling us

and that's a big part of our show is like bringing on eyewitnesses have these experiences and people go out that person's lying and it's like okay well you use your other senses to figure out if they're lying or not right but also you know in this podcast they go to the hard data to make the most skeptical person.

You know, you have somebody in this room and somebody in that room and there's no way that they can communicate except through, you know, the brain and they can read what their, what numbers they're thinking of. I mean, it's crazy. And I think that's why the show exploded because it can speak to the people that, that have a propensity to listen to a blurry creatures podcast. I've had a weird experience, so I don't have a problem hearing it weird experiences. But in this podcast, it speaks to the hardcore skeptic.

We're talking about telepathy tapes, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you all as well because almost every speaker has said to me that God wants a biblical understanding of what he's doing in this telepathy phenomenon. And I remember, you know, after going on the telepathy tapes thinking, everything I said to that effect didn't make it into the podcast. I remember praying. How, you know, Lord, I know I believe you want that to happen.

How's it going to happen? You all may be getting set up by God to be the point, you know, the place to go for the Christian response to understand this better. You know, I would say to anybody who listens to the telepathy tapes and then listens to you all here, tell everybody you know who's a Christian and they're trying to make sense of the telepathy tapes, come here to blurry creatures. Let's explore the faith message behind it. And I think we have to be ready to give the world an explanation. Of course, when telepathy tapes took off the way that it did, Kai, the creator, was frustrated that people weren't eager to do, you know,

for her to do a documentary. And she's an award-winning documentary creator. She's got a Wikipedia entry on, you know, some of her, films. Well, when the telepathy tapes hit, it attracted huge funding. A film will be coming out on the telepathy tapes. It might take the culture by storm the way, you know, some of the Christian movies that were a little under the radar screen did and were huge, you know, going back to God's not dead or this or that. I think when that happens, it's going to be a big cultural conversation on how do we as believers understand this. And I, it, it,

maybe that this is the place that people can come for that information. May I mention a site where I think I'm going to try to populate it with information? Yeah. So yeah. And again, this is new exploding on me. And as I said, the book is in production, so I don't have. When it comes out, you're coming back. This great way to wrap, I mean, to wrap this first conversation is Joe, you're a pastor in Scottsdale.

You at Highlands Church. So where can folks like find what you're working on? Obviously, you run the top of the tapes. Episode 7, correct? Right, and a little bit on 8. A little bit on 8? Primarily 7. So they can find you there.

Where can they find what you're working on? You know, books are a lift, right? I just created a brand new Instagram account, so there's not many numbers on it. I'm trying to send people there so they can get me on Instagram at Pastor Joe Enfranco. Okay. in Franco is, I-N-L-N-C-R-A-N-C-O. I have a, you know, a link there to the telepathy tapes. I will more proudly feature blurry creatures.

Exactly. And as we develop resources for families, we're trying to basically go a nonprofit route and find resources in every state to help families with special needs kids to be able to go and find out what benefits. are available in things. And if people are not on Instagram,

I'm reluctant to say this, but they can always go on the Highlands Church website. Highlands Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. They could email me. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. You get a lot of emails. I know, but they could email me my profiles there.

And it's Jay and Franco at Highlandschurch.org. I know what the telepathy tapes brought without my even mentioning that so if people have questions I feel compelled by God to respond to as many as possible with the popularity of your show I dread to think what the numbers could be

and so if people do try to reach out bear with me it may take you know when I talk to Dr. Diane Ann Powell, who is the psychiatrist, who is on the telepathy tapes. And we've had conversations. It's interesting. And she's taught psychiatry at Harvard and Johns Hopkins and all. She said after the telepathy tape, she couldn't even answer people by email any longer.

So if the box is flooded, you just bear with me. I'll try to get to them. and but the better thing would be if you just go on Instagram and just go to again, you know, Pastor Joe and Franco there. Just send a telepathic message to Joe. Right. All the, I'll meet you on the hill. We'll talk about it.

All the resources as they're created are going to go there. The book will be there eventually. And we wanted all to be dedicated to nonprofit resources to help families. It feels like a God-sized mission. you guys feel like part of it now. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate that. And I know like over the years, you know, obviously like when something goes viral,

it's like a good and a bad, right? You have this great thing that happens to you. But then all of a sudden, you get all this other side of thing. A lot of people go viral just, you know, making a bunch of weird comments on an airplane and X, you know, they go viral. And people's lives get ruined almost from that.

There's just a downside. And we really appreciate you just coming into our studio, giving us some time, answering our email, and giving our listeners a chance to hear the other side of the story. And I will say, like, no, no shade or shame to the telepathy tapes podcast. I think that what they do is really helpful for us and people in this space. What they do, they create the conversation, and then people are more hungry, and they go somewhere else to try to.

And that's what blurry creatures was. It was like everyone's having this paranormal experience with this creature, Bigfoot, right? And that's how this thing started. But there's something else behind all of that. There's some biblical explanation. There's something that we're afraid. There's a conversation we're afraid to have. And so you get so far down the rabbit hole,

but you're like, I'm not going to keep going because I'm afraid of what that means. And I think with this telepathic stuff, it's like, okay, we are seeing that we are part of a bigger story, a spiritual realm. We're just posted a video about what they're discovering underneath the pyramids. There's a bigger technology hidden that we can't see. There's a spiritual aspect to us that's hidden that some people can access. And Paul says more real. I'm so glad you said, because I don't want anything I said to in any way be thought of as disrespectful to the telepathy tapes. We're all walking according to the light, we're given.

And, you know, bless the creator of that, she's trying to get the conversation. She's opposing materialism, which is a very important first step. And it's data-driven, too. So you have this, you're as a lawyer, you're creating a case. And so that's so helpful. But what, you know, and what we're trying to do here, is say there's been a case created, but the piece that makes this makes the most sense is always from the arbiter of truth, which is the Word of God and the Bible. And that actually,

and we talk about puzzle analogies, that's the piece that makes it all makes sense, right? Is that Jesus, Jesus, not only is meeting with these kids and these adults and these nonverbal autistic people, but he's speaking to them. And he's giving them words for us and, and, and he's, and he's giving them words for us and these these people are blessed with abilities to see things blessed or cursing you talk about the demonic thing we'll get into that I think the next next conversation but like this like these these folks are exceedingly valuable to their creator and I think you're returning value to them when they are have been cast aside and really is not only they exceedingly immensely unmeasurably valuable to their creator but he's he's

communing with them he's giving them a space to meet and it's they're a gift to us as the body of Christ and this is God's you know paradoxical from our perspective paradoxical ways we think we're strong we're weak you know to be great in the kingdom we're going to be the servant of all that last shall be first and here these people we had written off is so unlikely like oh we're just going to put them in a corner and care for that yeah and now god profoundly turns the tables and scrambles our pathetically little understanding of what he's not his way doing. Isn't that his way? And I love it. It reminds me, the last thing I'll say is in this episode is that when I was 20 years old, I heard a sermon at a summer camp as a camp counselor and a pastor told

a story, quick story about he had a big family and he noticed in the back of the church he was preaching, family would show up with the Down syndrome child and then they would leave five minutes before the service was out every time. They would show up late. They would leave early. And he noticed this going on for like a year. And finally, he had somebody like get them before they left and he pulled them aside and he said, I just want you to know, I see you guys and I love you and I love your family. I have a family of like eight kids and we have a Down syndrome son and he is the joy of our family. And they were in the front row the next week of church and then there, you know, it was just this

whole shift in perspective of he's like, he's like my down syndrome child. is the greatest glue in our family, and he brings so much joy and happiness. I remember being, like, a 20-year-old kid, like, going, man, like, we are the worst to each other and in the church sometimes, you know, people don't even want to, they'll come to church, but they don't even want to be, they'll leave early because of what we will say to each other. And that stuck with me, like, you know, 25 years later. Wonderful, boy. So.

We should all have a lot of grace like that, right? Yeah. But anyway, thank you. Thank you so much, Joe. Thank you for coming on our podcast. Thank you for giving us a shot. And I know you're going to get a thousand emails from other podcasts, and you probably already have.

And so to come on our show means a lot. And your book's going to come out. I know we can do this again. But thank you and everyone out there. I took an Instagram photo here in the studio of you to help build your channel. And go check out the Instagram. And we'll see you. Thanks, Joe.

Thanks.