Blurry Creatures - EP: 329 The Invisible War with Michael Miller

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Michael Miller of Remnant Radio joins Blurry Creatures to talk deliverance and the gifts of the Spirit. In this episode, we dive deep into spiritual warfare, discernment, and the often-misunderstood gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Michael brings a grounded, biblical perspective to a topic surrounded by mystery and controversy. From real-life stories of exorcisms to deep theological insight, this conversation challenges the status quo and sheds light on how the supernatural still operates today.  - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog's,

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And Rough Greens really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code Blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Welcome back to Plurie Creatures, a bunch of 80s kids in an 80s basement. movie references are okay today. We got Michael Miller from the Remnant Radio podcast in the house going to talk about supernatural stuff. Exorcisms, deliverance. All the good stuff. Gifts to the spirit. All the blurry stuff that is a little bit harder to get out on Sunday morning at church. So it's all

welcome here. Not at your church without Michael. You're a reaction at a Reclamation church and no, we get some some weird blurry stuff on a Sunday service on occasion. It's not always every Sunday but yeah. The first demon my son saw me cast out of somebody was on a Sunday he walked up right

as I said the words come out and he had a lot of questions that night yeah, how old was he? He was six at the time. Oh, okay, that's a little,

that's a little, it's a little early to be walking on your first exorcism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was real quick though. It wasn't like, it wasn't like a massive,

scary manifestation, but it did peak his curiosity quite up head, so he had a lot of questions. Yeah, I mean, that's a start to the show. Yeah, I love this.

This is the way to go. That's what we do here, though. We ask these questions. We get more into the paranormal space and the weird or the better sometimes. But we kind of spice it up. We don't always hit that hard and heavy content. But sometimes it does get really bizarre here. But welcome to the podcast.

And if you've listened to our show, you know what we ask people? What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? He's sitting right there in front of you? What do you think about the big guy? I'm going to go with Demon. I don't know, honestly. We had you guys on our show for the Rimmy Radio, and I mean, I didn't know what to think of it.

The idea of something that's outside of like, you know, your basic supernatural, like what's clear in scripture? I have no idea what's doing any of that stuff. The weird thing about, what I love about this Bigfoot conversation, though, is that we did in a couple interviews this week, and one of the guys we had on was a demon as well.

I think the problem always for me with that, and five years in the show is that, like, thing leaves footprints and hair and DNA, but then, of course, the always thing with Bigfoot is you don't drag it. There's no body. Where's the body? You don't drag them out of the woods.

So, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's a weird thing. If it's a, if it's an eternal being of some sort, like an angel that can can be embodied, then it's like, well, then it would leave stuff. Yes. I don't know how that works. The hairy, the hairy eight foot, you know, gorilla belt angels. Yeah.

What do those guys hang out at? Yeah. I don't know what to do with any of that stuff. I think my favorite is Bigfoot's not from here, you know? that is that is the weirdest rabbit hole to go down So he's not a local

You're like If one is If you're interested People who have encounters Like things don't go well For them Afterwards Like they have like weird things

It's a mixed bag Yeah It is That's what's weird About Bigfoot There's like There are like These sort of ambivalent

Or amicable Like there's weird stories Like Bigfoot saves a kid From drowning And you go How do you fit that If that happened How do you fit that into

Because then there's The terrifying ones Bigfoot ripped My porch apart and destroyed my trailer, tried to break into my house, or you know, Nate's favorite is Bigfoot was a, a generous lover. Yeah, exactly. He pursued me.

That was on our episode with lots of gentle caressing. With Joel Richardson, right? Yeah, with Joel. A gentle and generous lover. Generous lover. Yeah, Bigfoot, we don't know. I mean, we haven't had that episode yet, you know. Maybe we'll do that on Valentine's Day.

But today, we're getting into, I guess just, Where do you want to start with this conversation? Because we could go anywhere with this. You tell me guys. We'll start with your stories. Let's introduce you. If you didn't listen to us, me on your show. I would love just to get a little background for our people that are listening and our listeners on you.

I mean, we kind of went to you. You've got Remnant Radio and you pastor Reclamation Church in Denver. But a little bit of your story. Because I know we have these mutual circles that overlap. Grant Pemberton who's been on the show. You guys both work in these spaces of deliverance. Now, we've talked on the show, ironically, a ton lately about spiritual supernatural things. He's had a few exorcists on Catholic exorcists. Bob Larson came on.

Yeah, that was the most fascinating to me, actually. I was really interested to see what he's like behind the scenes. But 50 years. He was great. I mean, he was really nice to us. He was tripping out on the set, like going, look at all this stuff. I'm like, Bob, you remember the 80s? He's like, oh, yeah. And he's very polarizing, though. But I think the thing with Bob was interesting, the cameras turned off. And like, he asked if he could pray for us. I mean, he was a very... Yeah, he was very kind. Very kind. Him and his wife are very kind. And that's maybe not what people see and people get,

I think the lot of people see the, it's like the righteous gemstones, you know, Bob Larson and televangelist stuff. Yeah, I think if you get too close to the fire your whole life and you're spending your time in that space, you're going to get some singes and burns. You're going to have some, that negative residue.

When you put yourself out there and do public deliverances like he does, like there's no world where you're not going to get a bunch of shots taken at you. But I know this about people who actually do deliverance work, they spend hours with people trying to get them free. That kind of discipline and that willingness to step into someone's life and their story and then try to track these things down, like there's a level of compassion and care you have to have to do that. I just don't know because you don't spend hours with people unless you're counselor. Some of the guys on a show say it takes months. Yes. So I don't, there's like some discrepancy. Yeah. Regular prayer times throughout months.

Yeah. Coming back. And I, that seems more from like the Catholic exorcists we've had on, they can say it can take up to months. That's true at our church. We have teams that will pray for people. And there's, I mean, one guy that we've been praying for for probably four months now, and they're still working to get them free. They've got them free of some things, but not fully free yet. And what do you think is happening there, like, to get in the conversation, like, why are some quick and some aren't? I don't know. So this is, this is space I'm still exploring. Like, I've, I see way more now than I used to. I'd say,

So a bit of my background. Jewish mother, Mormon, father became a Christian when I was 15 years old. Somebody gave me a Bible. It was just one of the Bibles that had the Psalms, Proverbs, in the New Testament. You know, I loved,

well, I read the Psalms and Proverbs because I thought it was like poetry and I thought girls will find it attractive if I knew poetry. You know, a 15-year-old boy. You don't know what you're doing. You should have started with Solomon. That might have worked a little better.

Well, my Bible didn't have that, unfortunately. Yeah, you missed it. And so then I would read the New Testament and I was like, I need to find out more about this, and then found out I was missing half the Bible, more than half of it. And so it was immediately in a cessationist form of Christianity. They didn't believe the gifts were happening today,

and then had an encounter my senior year of college that really changed all that. I was praying with a friend of mine. Next thing I know I'm on the ground, dry heaving, shaking, trembling, crying. And then after that, it was like, I suddenly knew that this world was more blurry than I thought it was.

I thought everything was nice, neatly packaged. You just need to believe these intellectual propositions, and you can get your sins forgiven. So I still believe that. That's true. Like you need to know those propositions, but really got into Gifts the Spirit when I was in my 20s because of a guy named Jack Deere,

who wrote a book called Surprise by the Power of the Holy Spirit. So he was a mentor for years. And then when it came to the deliverance landscape, Jack was the one who taught me most things. up until about four years ago, started hanging around with Ken Fish a little bit, and really started seeing a lot more. And now I see it on a regular basis.

And when it comes to some of the more complex cases where people, whatever is there, it doesn't seem to be leaving very quickly. There's usually a number of reasons going on. Either one, we haven't figured out how this thing got in. There's something either repressed memory, that demon's holding back that memory from coming to the forefront, so you can't quite get to it to get rid of it.

But there could be a number of reasons for why that's going on. Or it's something ancestral, which nobody really likes to talk about, especially in evangelical world. But I found more and more cases that recently the last couple of months I've seen stuff where it wasn't this person

who did anything. This is something that's come down the family line. Some people would call it a generational curse. I don't like that term. I think it's just that's how spirits travel. They traffic and sin. It doesn't matter if it's your sin, your parents' sin or sin committed against you.

That's just how they get in. Can we start right there? Because I think this has come up a few times in the show. and people don't like this. They really don't like it. I didn't like it. I actually, I really thought it was a repugnant idea.

Yeah. Like, why would God give you a demon because of something your great-grandpa did? Sure, it was a mason, or there was, or there was, he murdered someone, right? You have these things. So how, my question is, is, first and foremost,

I like that we're addressing this to start because this is always a hot button for people. The curses are all broken at the cross, so you can't have this, these things don't, don't have any power over us. but, again, I don't call it a curse. Yeah, see, this is, this is what I like. I mean, we believe the garden, there was like a curse in the garden.

Sure, and we're still dealing with the ramifications of that curse. Like, our bushes still produce thorns and thistles, don't they? Yeah. Women still have pain in childbirth, don't they? Yeah. When they, when they believed in Jesus, it's not like that suddenly went away. They're still experiencing the results of the curse. So I don't doubt that curses are a thing.

I'm just saying that I don't think every demon that's coming down generational lines is a curse. So how do you discover these? This is a question I was actually talking with my wife about. Like, how do you know? Because I think there's this like sort of paralysis of analysis where you can be like, there's something happened now. Whatever's happening in my life with this spiritual warfare asked to be because something's in my line. But how do I find out something that is in my line, for example?

I mean, because I think, sure, you can sort of cascade this into, you know, trying to cover all these things. There were giants in Luke's line. He knows. He's got some. My uncle, Alexander. My great uncle was six, seven. He was a big man. Yeah. So he's got some Nephilim DNA. He's got to pray about. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, typically, how do you, I see the mark on that hand where that six finger was cut off? Yeah, I keep in a jar. Yeah. Okay, let me back up on this question. So I think there's a tendency for people when they start talking about these things to fall in one or two ditches. You know, you either fall on this side of, you know, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Right. Yeah. The Kaiser Sosa. It was a Jacques something, some French poet that became.

up with this. 80s movies. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Jeez. Now we talk about the usual suspects. That's one of the ones we quote all the time.

It's close. It's a great one. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So then on the other side of it, you've got this ditch called overinflating the power of the enemy. And I think that's, when we start talking about this stuff, about things that come down generational lines, it's like, oh, no.

Well, how do I know my great, great grandpappy didn't do something? Like, should I be afraid? And I'm like, look, you've been living this way your whole life. Whatever is going on in your life isn't made different by you actually having some knowledge that it could be gotten rid of. So, you know, we don't want to freak out about those things. At the end of the day, we will be free. Like one way or another, Jesus Christ paid the price for these things on the cross. So on one side of the resurrection or the other, we will experience all that Christ paid for. Now, my goal is to get as much of that on this side of the resurrection as possible. And so when it comes to routing these things out, you know, I'm going to ask a number of different questions like, are you Scottish? I know that's a weird one. I got that one. Yes. Okay, so two days ago, I'm, having lunch with a buddy of mine. And he's like, you know, we're talking through deliverance stuff.

He was like, yeah, you know, I've gotten some, some really a lot of freedom in the last few years because of deliverance. I'm like, oh, that's amazing. I was like, I've been seeing a lot of weird stuff in the last few years. And he's like, really like what? And I was like, oh, you know, like Scottish curses being broken off. And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, you know, there was a curse put on all the border clans of Scotland. And he's like, hold on.

I'm Scottish. And I'm like, okay. So what's the Scottish last name you've got? And he tells me, and I'm like, oh, okay, let's look it up. I'm like, oh, yeah, there's your name right there. That's your family line. That family line was cursed by the Archbishop of the Catholic Church known as Gavin Dunbar. This is 1,500 years ago.

I mean, sorry, 500 years ago in the 1500s. Wow. And so he's like, okay, we got to pray. And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. So he came over to my office. One of my other elders was there, was there. So the two of us prayed over him. And sure enough, you know, he had a curse.

and it come down as generational lines. I said, buddy, you're going to need to get your whole family to get prayer for this. And so what happened was the border clans of Scotland were known as Revers, and they would steal, pillage, rape, murder. They would do all these things to the inland people of Scotland. And so the Archbishop of the Catholic Church had had enough of it, and he put a curse on them.

And you can go look this curse up. It's like an 1,100 word curse that's written out on a thing called the Stone of Monition, where it is to this day in Scotland, in Glasgow. Wow. I feel like we need to do an episode on that. Yeah, that could be a whole episode. Yeah, you've not heard of this.

This is a new one. Okay, see, this is fun. Good. I'm bringing something new to the audience. Oh, yeah. This is wild. I learned about this again. I can't take credit.

I first learned about it from Derek Prince and his book on Curses. And I saw it firsthand when I was with Ken Fish. And then I've seen it on a number of occasions. I was in Pagosa Springs last summer. Lady comes out to me for prayer and she's trying to figure out, you know, why life just is not working out the way it used to. It's like ever since she moved to Pagos, She feels like, you know, lawsuits, everything's falling apart.

She feels like she's lost her purpose and identity. And I'm like, I'm going through all the normal questions. Like, well, you know, have you got any sin? Any sin committed against you? When did this start? Anything happened dramatic at that time in your life? And nothing is hitting. And I'm like, Lord, what is this?

And then I was like, can I ask a really weird question? And she's like, sure, as if my other questions weren't weird already. I said, do you have any Scottish ancestry? She's like, now. And her husband goes, well, What about your grandmother? She's Scottish, isn't she? And she goes, oh, yeah.

And so I was like, okay, let's pray something. This could be a little strange. So I walked her through a prayer of renunciation of the sins of her Scottish ancestors, you know, the rape, murder, pillage, stealing, all of that. And then I commanded the, I said, in the name of Lord Jesus, may the curse of Gavin Dunbar be broken off of you

and your family line from this day forward. When I did that, she went catatonic, like paralyzed head to toe, starts drooling at the mouth. and then I start commanding any spirits that were enforcing that curse to come out and she costs it up and is delivered. Next day I'm picking up my kids from child care

after preaching that morning and I run into her and she's like, she immediately starts crying. She says, I had no idea I've been living with that thing in my head my whole life. Wow. Nuts.

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slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And she's a believer, just to be clear. When does the check engine light come on for people, so to speak? Like, how do you know something's wrong?

Well, for the guy I prayed for two days ago, and it's not like I see this curse. I've seen it five times. in total in the last few years. For him, there was no symptom. He just, when I just mentioned the story, he's like, well, I've got Scottish ancestry, we should pray. So that was the check engine light for him.

But for others, check engine light could be a number of things. Like nothing seems to be going right. Like everything I put my hands to just seems to fall apart. I can't seem to get a business off the ground. Or they've got various health issues and doctors can't figure out what it is. You've got all these symptoms and they're like, well, it could be this. It could be this.

It could be this, but yet every treatment they try doesn't work. And so I'm like, well, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It's probably a demon, right? And that's usually the route that I'm going. That's the process I'm going through in my head as they're telling me their world, their experience, their life story. I want to ask about this, the curse in general. So we have a bishop. I mean, how do these things then have power, if you will, you know what I mean?

Because you've got, and it kind of makes me, my head starts, the wheel start turning, thinking like how does that then work? Why does that then have power over these clans, for example? And then, you know, is that sort of blueprint still happening? Are some people trying to, are some people casting? Why does that work, I guess? Yeah, I don't know how it works. I don't even know why it works.

Like, I know that the world is more blurry than we think it is, right? So there is things, I mean, you look in scripture, Joshua put a curse over the land of Jericho. So it's not just people that are cursed, it's an actual plot of land. Yeah, yeah. You know, whoever rebuilds the gates by the death of your firstborn, whoever rebuild its walls

by the death of your lastborn. Well, 500 years later, we see the story play out. Somebody decides to erect the gates and the walls of Jericho. What happens? His firstborn and lastborn sons die. And he says, you know,

the author in this case is even sort of like, he's trying to hyperlink. He's trying to make you aware. Like, this is in fulfillment of what Joshua prophets. prophesied. So we know this is in the scripture, but how it has an impact, I don't know how that works. I don't get it. Maybe it's prophetic. Maybe God is behind it. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just

demonically inspired and there's demons that can enforce these things and powers that are sort of unseen that are making these things come to pass. It makes sense with them legal, from a legalist's standpoint, right? Like you operate in this space. Like the supernatural realm is very legal. It's interesting because I think about curses and my first thing is always like, this is part witchcraft. I know that what the occult. That definitely is true, right? Jesus curses the fig tree, though. And it works.

It's just a part of Christianity, and it's a part of the world that, you know, a lot of black and white Christians just don't want to talk about. They don't want to touch that. They're going to hate these episodes. I was a, I taught mathematics in middle school for about five years. So like, I like, my favorite class in college

was logic. You know, that's, that's the kind of framework that I'm looking at. And I'm seeing this stuff early on. And I'm like, like, okay, I know this, this is really offensive to me. I don't know how to explain this. And it kind of clicked for me when I was like going, okay, we know this on a natural plane that the sins of our parents can affect the children. I grew up with parents that were divorced. Dad cheated on mom multiple times. They got divorced when I was about a year old, and dad was out of the picture by age four. And so I know firsthand the ramifications of the sins of my parents.

So when it comes down to that on a natural plane, we all go. yeah, that makes sense. Okay, well, why not on a supernatural plane? Why, why do we have to differentiate somehow? And it's because I think, I think we think that everything on a supernatural plane is sort perfectly orchestrated by God. Like, why would God give me a demon because of what great grandpappy did? Well, it's not God doing it. This is just how demons traffic. They traffic and sin. And the beauty is, is that because of what Christ has done, there is now power to set people free from these things. That's the really beautiful part of it. Hmm. So what are the steps that it took in your life to get there to actually like start to think about ancient Scottish curses?

I wasn't thinking about it. Somebody threw that in front of me. I found the idea kind of repugnant and offensive. And then I started looking into it. I'm like, well, doggone. That's got some merit. You can actually look this up. You get on Google, you can find the plans that were all cursed.

You can find the actual written curse. You can go to Scotland and see the stone of monition. Do these demons tell you these things? Do they speak out of people and give you clues to like, What? That has happened. The vast majority of deliverances that I've been a part of, vast majority, like 99%. I'd never have a demon talk to me.

I know that's the case with some people, like the guy you had on before Bob. Bob Larson. Bob Larson, yeah. Or Father Martins as well, like for the Catholic Exorcists, yeah. I think that's on a different spectrum. So when you conceptualize of evil spirits, the tend to, the tend to. is to think of possessed or oppressed. I don't think in those terms.

When I look at the scripture, what I find are demonization. The word in English changes meaning over time. Like if you look in Elizabethan English and you use the word awful, today we'd use it to describe the flu, but in Elizabeth in English, we'd use it to describe a cathedral,

how it would fill you with awe. Oh, it's full of awe, yes. Right. So you think possession, well, when we think possession, our mind immediately goes to the movie The Exorcist. And I think that's a really horrible, you don't want to get your demonology from Hollywood.

Hollywood's a horrible teacher. Scripturally speaking, the word is diamond idzami. They're just taking the noun, demon, and they're turning it into a verb by adding the idzomai to the end of it. We do this in English all the time. If I want to take a noun and turn into a verb, like take the noun theology, turn into a verb, I'd say, don't theologize me.

I add I-Z-E to it. So that's exactly what's happening in the Greek. They're taking demon, they're adding to Izami, so it's diamond idzami. So in English, what's the best word? Demonize. Demonization. And that reframes it.

So instead of thinking every mental capacity is taken over, it's actually just a level of affliction, right? A deaf spirit doesn't cause infirmity. And a spirit of infirmity doesn't cause a person to be blind. You've got different ailments that correspond with how the demon is afflicting a person. And so, like the woman in Luke 13, we were told that she's bent over double with a spirit of affliction or infirmity, but it doesn't speak through her. It just causes that part of the problem and that part of the body.

So I mentioned this because most people think if someone has a demon, they're completely taken over. I find that to be a very small minority of people. Now, that does happen where a demon is taken over. I saw somebody, this happened recently when I was in San Diego about a month ago. A lady comes out to me for prayer. She's got a cough that's been lingering for like four months and goes to the doctor. They can't figure out. And so I'm like, well, let's just try something out.

And I look at her, I said, spirit of affliction, come out of her. Next thing you know, she starts gagging and then coughing this thing out. And all of a sudden, she could breathe freely, no cough. The next day she comes to me and she says, well, the cough came back. I said, oh, okay. Well, what happened? So, well, last night I had this dream where this demon was choking me and I woke up and it was literally on my chest choking me. Now, we had just done this episode on the remnant about the chimera. And I was diving into Doug Van Dorns,

Dugging into Dye Van Dorn's. Yeah, stuff. You're digging or dugging? Digging into Doug Van Dorn's book on giants to kind of like, is there such a thing as a chimera? And I remember we went to this passage in Isaiah 49 about the night owl. Yeah.

Well, that's quoted in Revelation, which is an interesting thing. But if you look at the Masoretic, the Hebrew version of the Old Testament, you're just going to get night creature. You look at the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament, and you get Lalit, which is like the night demon, Lilith. Lilith was supposedly a demon

that would come in and kill children in the middle of the night. And I'm thinking, well, this woman got choked in the middle of the night. I'm like, maybe this is Lilith. I'm like, let's try this out. So I look at her and I go, Lilith, come out of her.

And she turns to me and she goes, F you, just says it full on. Really? I'm like, oh, you know, like Ghostbusters moment. Bingo, got one, you know? 80s movie. Yeah, yeah, thanks. That's in. That's in.

And so I'm starting to ask the questions now. Like, how did you get in? And it said, I've always been here. I said, when did you get in? I thought it was just messing with me, like taunting me and playing with me. It says, she was born with me. Like, oh. And how's that voice?

Like, is it obviously a different voice? No, it was her voice. It was just petty and twisted and, you know, like it was her voice, but it was a demeanor that was just gross. Does the person have... It was like the movie of this. From Princess Bride.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when the person is speaking, are they like conscious of what's happening? Are they out of it? No, I don't think... I don't know if she... Sometimes, yes, sometimes no.

Sometimes it takes over and they're aware of it. Other times I've seen it take over and they're not aware of it. Again, these are very rare occurrences. Sure. So for like Father Martins, they only deal with what they would call exorcisms, where the person is possessed. Whereas I'm looking on a spectrum, just thinking, demons get in by some means, they afflict various parts of the body, some take over the voice. So like we're in tornado alley. You know, there's like little dirt devils or whatever they call

them. They're just like little tiny oppression and then all the way to class five tornadoes where they're going to come through and wipe out everything. So you like some of those heavier cases where you've got multiples in people. They're totally manifesting. And then they're levitating off the ground. They're like throwing up nails and stuff. And those are the ones that actually make it on like, you know, Unsolved Mysteries episodes and stuff like that Hollywood will do a film about. Exactly. But those happen. So what are you saying? Those are rare. What happens with Lilith, though? I mean, yeah, what does she do? Oh, in this case it got in, I think through a grandmother who had committed adultery. And so I committed to come out, had this lady renounced the sins of her grandmother. Well, actually,

I had Lilith renounce. I had always sort of speculated on this. I'm like, if renunciations are part of our repentance process, can you force a demon to renounce their claim? So I was like, let's give this a shot. Yeah. And so I said, Lilith repeat after me. And it just kind of rolled its eyes.

And I said, I renounce my claim. And she said, I renounce my claim to the person. And she said it. And then I said, and all of her children. and it looked at me just so angry. Like before it was like sarcastic and kind of, you know, petulant. But then when I said,

and all of her offspring, it says, I know what you're doing. You're trying to trick me. I said, say the words. Said, I renounce my claim to her and all her offspring. I said, now come out of her. And she starts coughing this thing out

and it comes out of her. Oh, you got a wildlife, Michael. Yeah. Well, this is, again, this is not, that's not an every week occurrence. No, no, no. I don't know, it's not liar. That was the first time I'd ever run into that, too.

It's a liar, but still, like, this is, I think the thing is crazy, and not for most of our listeners, because I think this falls in their paradigm, but for, I think a lot of Christiandom, this. Yeah, a lot of evangelical. Yeah, this is very hard for folks. Yeah. Because, not for us. Not for us. But I'm just saying this, in general, it still feels wild to hear it, and we sit here for five years doing this, but it's not, I mean, it's, it's completely biblical. And then you have these characters that exist in the scripture, and you're like, you run into them.

You bump into some of these folks, which is. Yeah, yeah. Which is... And I'm not sure, you know, when it comes to proper name demons... Sure. I'm not sure if that was a type, like there's a Lilith type out there, or if that's like, you know, I don't know what to make of it. It could be like, you know, it's like Jude or Enoch or whatever. They're just taking a name that sounds important.

It could be that as well. Yeah, it could be that. Yeah. Do you need have somebody perform deliverance or an exorcism or can you do it on yourself? So I get this question, and almost every time I do any kind of conference on this is self-deliverance a thing. I think it is. I think people get delivered sovereignly by God. I think you can be delivered by, you know, walking away and making yourself incredibly inhospitable to demons. They traffic and sin. So if you're living a holy, righteous, upright life, they're not going to enjoy being there.

So she, you know, accompanied with praise and worship and prayer and fellowship and taking of the sacraments. Like, I'm a bit sacramental in my, you know, practice. So I think that does happen. However, I don't think that's what's prescribed in the text. Yeah. And James, he says, let's confess our sins each to one another that we may be healed for the prayer of a righteous man availeth much, right? So there's this idea that we're actually supposed to walk in the light. And it says, when walk in the light, walking the light doesn't mean walking free from sin. It means walking with your sin exposed.

And so the result is that you have fellowship, which makes sense, right? Knowing and being known, that is the essence of fellowship. and then the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all in righteousness. So I do think that we're actually meant to do this over each other. We're meant to pray for one another. We're meant to deliver one another. This is the work that we as Christ followers are given to do. So I don't even think deliverance is a gift.

I think it's a ministry of Christians. So when Lilith comes out of this woman, is she like come back to herself? She does, yeah. What was uncanny was the next day, This was over a three, four day weekend. Judah, we were there for four days, right? Yeah.

So the next day she comes back and she's talking about how she went out to dinner that night and she just didn't know what to order. And she's like, I just feel lost. I'm like, well, yeah, all you've ever known are that thing's appetite. Like you've been living not with the difference between you and that thing. so enmeshed that you don't know the difference between you and it. And so you're going to have to learn

how to do life apart from that other personality. Like you're going to have to learn to find out what you enjoy and who you are. And that's not always easy. Mexican food, of course. Yeah. What is the difference?

What is the difference between like a trauma and like a demonic? Choice hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at storeshiltails.com.

Oppression possession. Like something that's like a learned behavior versus something that can be quick fixed. Yeah, we're going to get into some different categories. Again, I was a math teacher. So for me, I like to think in categories that help make sense of things. So a demon is not trauma,

and a trauma is not demon, but they often go together. So again, if demons traffic and sin, and you think about the various kinds of sins that cause trauma, well, they get in through those means. Yeah. Right?

So a woman who's traumatized because of something done to her, well, she may be dealing with trauma. She may also have an evil spirit that's there, and it may be playing off of that trauma. But then also, if that trauma happened early on an age, maybe, you know, one to five, well, she may grow up with not just a,

trauma, but a reinforced habitual way of thinking called a stronghold of the mind. And all of those things are different things. So a stronghold of the mind is a belief you have about yourself, about God, about the world around you that is not true, but feels true. So I had this. I had, like I mentioned earlier, parents divorced at age one, dad's out of the picture by age four, marries another woman who has six kids, meanwhile not paying child support to my mother. So we felt replaced. we felt abandoned. Now, I took that trauma into my adult life

and I had this belief system that I'd built up brick by brick, a fortress that anybody who got to know me would find out that I'm damaged goods. The closer they got to me, the more they'd want to run because they'd realize who I really am.

Now, I believe, I could have never told you this on a conscious level, but I believe that at the core of who I was, I was not worthy of love and not worthy of knowing and sticking around for. And so I carried that with me into adult relationships. I was always chasing after the girl walking away, recreating that trauma for my childhood

of the father who walked away. So if I could just get the guy who walked away, if I could get the girl walking away, then I'd finally be worth something. The problem is, is anybody who wanted to stick around? I thought, well, something must be wrong with them because they like me. And so the one walking away made the most sense,

and that's a recipe for singleness. Yeah, yeah. So until I started to deal with, not just the trauma, the trauma had to get dealt with. I also had to start changing the way I thought, renewing the mind, tearing down that fortress through cognitive therapy, truth encounter. But then also I had to get rid of a spirit

that was also there because of all of this known as a spirit of rejection and abandonment. All of those things were at play simultaneously, but one was not the other. They worked off each other. Yeah, because I mean, I think that, you know, obviously on this show, like when we interviewed Bob,

he was talking about, you know, counseling and some of these other concepts, and it feels like it's a, it's a soup of ingredients that people come to a realization that something happened to them. And I think that makes a lot of sense, though. It's kind of like if you think about these just needed doorway and access point and sin is so much more complex than I think that we were taught growing up of like what it is. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a problem when you make things overly simplistic because what, happens is it leaves people disillusioned, like, well, there's something uniquely wrong with them because they tried whatever formula was given to them and it didn't work. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I felt. For me, the abandonment issues were crushing. You know, my issue, a large chunk of the problem for me was I had seen real miracles. I'd seen deaf ears open. I'd seen blind eyes open. I'd seen flat feet. I've seen change shape right in front of my eyes and get arches. Yeah. And so when it came to my rejection and abandonment issues, I kept thinking, well, God, I've seen you do this. I've seen you do this. Why won't you, you know, bleep-de-bleep and heal me of my rejection issues?

And, you know, Derek Prince has a famous quote that I really clung to. He says, God would not do for you what he has commissioned you to do for yourself. And so I realized, like, oh, my problem is I've got this habitual way of thinking and I keep expecting God to zap it away, just like I saw him zap away deafness and blindness and flat feet. And, um, I actually had to do some work. And that work came with regularly taking thoughts captive, replacing them with truth, meditating on truth. So it wasn't just something that was a fact lodged away

in my head, something I believed at the core of my being, that I was actually worthy of knowing and loving. So obviously these things are spirits, right? But then they have a physical, they can mess with the physical realm and the physical body. Yeah. How does that work, you think? Like why?

some things they can you know we don't see them walking around you know what I mean and they seem to need a body get into a body yeah this is the speculative part of the world I don't know

like I know it depends which theory you want to go with do you want to go with these are all fallen angels and are incorporeal and they need bodies or do you want to go with the idea that they are departed Nephilim or departed you know parents of the Nephilim that are now,

that their bodies have died and they're now, you know, spirits that are roaming on the earth, the Inakian kind of view. How they actually impact a body, I don't know how they do it. I know that they do it. Right? Like that's one thing that's clear.

And where they come from, you know, I tend to lean more towards the Anakian tradition on this one. I think there's enough credible evidence there that, you know, Jesus was playing off of that, literature when he mentions, he calls them unclean spirits. Unclean sort of implies mixture. You look at the various things that were forbidden in the kosher dietary restrictions. Well, they were mixture, right? Like you can't eat the, is a lobster? Is it a land animal,

like a bottom dwelling land animal, or is it a sea creature? Yeah. It kind of crosses the realms. It goes, it breaks the boundaries. You know, things that eat the dead, like vultures, you know, these things were all considered unclean. Yeah. Well, using the word unclean to describe the evil spirits that are roaming the earth, that does sort of imply a mixture. Like this is something that is instinctively mixed, or by its very nature, ontologically mixed. I like that because I think that

most of the, more of the exorcist view is they are fallen angels. Yeah. But it seems to me like there's a little more nuance there, that it's not that easy. These, they could be the offspring of those things, and I like that unclean spirit

explanation. It's definitely, it gives you it makes more sense of the variance to, well, I don't know, I guess you could say that there's a lot of variance amongst the angelic world, but to me it makes more sense because you've got these kind of like principality level spirits. Yeah. And they're certainly not like the kind of spirits I cast out of

somebody that was a spirit of infirmity or spirit of fornication or, you know, going down the line. Yeah. That's something else. And I don't have run-ins with those kind of things. And I certainly don't go after them. Yeah. And it, I think that there's no problem with having more conversations and actually understanding things at a higher level so we can work on freedom.

Sure. Because it's like, you know, a game, like what was a, what would a fallen angel need a board game like an Ouija board to get access to a person? If it's a fallen, if it's like this angelic being, it would have access to do what it wants to do, I would, I would assume. but it seems like some of these are lower level. They need some sort of easy point in to get into a person and a desire to inflict. And I think some of the principalities power,

stronghold bigger, more powerful entities are doing other things on a more like political level. Yes, absolutely. And then you have these like rats that are like running around infecting people. You know what I mean? It feels like demons are more in like,

they're lower, they're like a lower, just a, like a nuisance. Well, there's no doubt that there's tears, right? Scripturally speaking, this kind only came out through prayer. Yeah. Well, you know, the disciples are like, why couldn't we drive it out? Yeah.

That's an interesting passage to know here. Well, you know, Jesus comes back and the disciples are, you know, they're not able to cast this demon out of this young boy. And the other thing that's interesting is he's a young boy, which means how did this thing get in? I doubt it was his sin. Could have been sin committed against him, but probably something ancestral. And then when the disciples are unable to do it, he looks at them and he rebukes them.

You faithless generation, unbelieving. Why does he say that? Well, his expectation was that disciples, they can cast out demons. Which, what does that say about all of us today? Like, what's the expectation that the Lord has for Christians today? But he expects us to be able to do these things. This is the work of the ministry that we're called to do. And then later on, you know, they're trying to figure out after he's able to do it,

Why couldn't they do it? He said, well, this kind only comes out through prayer. Well, he didn't stop and pray for 24 hours before he cast his demon out of the boy, right? Which tells you that he actually had a prayer life. The disciples didn't. Like, which one of the cool things you see in the gospel is you don't see the disciples praying once until after the resurrection. After that, they start having a prayer life.

He even warns him. Like, I'm afraid you guys are going to fall into dissipation. So pray. Which tells you, he was actually concerned that just all be. become drunks. They would just waste their lives unless they get a prayer life. So they're having some success casting out demons and then they run into one that they can't do. Yeah. And what do you think is happening there? Some sort of higher level tier of demon. And having a prayer life clearly makes a difference. He's not telling us why I can speculate. You know, I think having a prayer

life, one helps us to recognize the voice of God, to know what to do in a moment in time. I had the first time I had a demon manifest where it actually spoke through a person. I was in South Africa and it was one of the most, one of the most terrifying experiences. This guy is trying to get me to pray for his wife. This story will speak by way of analogy here, but this guy's trying to get me to pray for his wife. And I don't know, when that happens, I'm always like, I can't fix your marriage, dude.

You know, like, that's first thought in my head, you know? And so I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll pray. You know, Dr. Phil? Yeah. Well, you know how it is. It's like if you could just get this person fixed, things would go well for us. And it's like,

I don't know if I want to get involved in this. Like I'm here visiting. I'm not like, I don't live here. I'm not going to be able to regularly counsel you guys and what's going on. And so he finally corners me and I'm like, okay, yeah, let's pray. And so I sit down with this, he and his wife and I started asking questions like,

okay, what do you want prayer for? And the wife's like, oh, I don't know. I'm like, okay, do you want prayer? And she's like, I don't know. And I'm like, well, I'll turn to the husband. I said, what does she need prayer for? goes, she needs prayer. I said, well, what do you need prayer for? And she goes, well, I feel confused sometimes. I was like, okay, when did this confusion start? You know, how long has the

boy been like this, right? The kind of question, I'm trying to figure out how this thing got in if there is something there and how long you've been feeling confused. And she just turns to me, she goes, I don't like you. I go, uh-oh. We're not in Kansas anymore. And that's not an easy reference, but that's like a 60s reference. Turns into a cage match. Yeah. It turns into a cage match. Yeah. And I never had this happen before. Cage match?

Yeah. So I look at the woman and I said, you're not allowed to hurt this woman. You're not allowed to hurt anybody in this room. Now, I had two friends of mine from Texas. They had never seen anything like this before. I thought, well, this would be fun? Here we go. Rodeo time.

I have seen demons get cast out of people. I never had one talk to me. And so I was like, I'm going to go get my friends from Texas that just kind of brand new to the gift of spirit. And so I get them, I don't tell them what we're praying for. I said, hey, I just need your help praying. And so then I started interrogating this demon saying, uh, how did you get in?

And the demon was like, I was sent here. And I said, who sent you? Said, Rita, I turned to the husband. I go, who's Rita? Because that's my sister. It's like, I don't know what to do with this. Like, I have no idea. And so I said, well, what allowed you to get here?

And demon says, fear. And said, what do you do the woman? At this point, and this is where it got freaky. I mean, it was already freaky. It said this, it got worse. It said, I cause murder. I caused divorce. Now, when it said that, I thought,

it didn't just say those words. It was a threat. It was letting me know exactly what it does. In other words, like, I cause murder, and by the way, I'm going to kill you too. Wow. And it was like this pervasive sense of darkness, just threatened to swallow me whole.

And right in that moment, I hear the Lord say to me, just a crystal clear thought, probably one of the few times in my life where I ever felt like I really heard the voice of the Lord clearly, It said, don't be afraid. It's trying to intimidate you. And the same voice that spoke came with this pervasive sense of peace

that just sort of push back the darkness. And anyway, we managed to drive this thing out. And I talked to the woman about how this got in. It was through basically she had been cursed by her sister-in-law, who was a Hindu priestess 30 years ago. When they got married, this man was a Hindu, and she was a Christian. and her sister, his sister didn't want him to marry her.

And so he, she had, the Hindu priestess had cursed her sister-in-law because her husband became a Christian to marry her. So here's the other crazy part. The Hindu priestess, she had also come to Christ. After all of that. After the deliverance here or previous to that? In between that 30-year period of when she sent the curse and here we are today, it was somewhere in there she came to Christ. So her coming to Christ didn't suddenly make the curse disappear. Wow.

Yeah. And so this demon that was enforcing this curse had been sent there, had rights to be there. And when I find out what rights it was, well, she gave in every fearful thought that came in her head. She would act out of fear and in these ways sin. So walked her through repentance. I drove the demon out first and then walked her through the repentance and renunciation process. But my point in saying all of this is like here you have a different kind of demon and came in through different means. And in this case, like the Lord kind of shows up in the process of it.

How did I get here by analogy? We're talking about the fear. I can't remember. I was what I'm trying to thought. Well, it seems like, you know, these stories, what I kind of like picture in my mind is sometimes you let this wild animal into your house, right? Sometimes you just open the front door and you don't even know you're doing it. It comes barreling in. Sometimes you open the door and you're like, come on in.

Totally. Or go into their house. Yeah. And you command things. and it seems like there is this willingness to, like a curse to me as like asking for, you know, some spirit to enter somebody else or oppress somebody else. And then some people just,

they go see a psychic or they play a board game or they, you know, have some traumatic thing happen to them. And all of a sudden. Or they have a sudden. Yeah. Well, I think it's crazy. Unbeknownst to them that it happens. Yeah.

I think one of the craziest things, Michael, to me, that we've heard from the actual, and in these conversations is that one of the main entry points for demons is on forgiveness, which was like really crazy to hear because I think like we all probably, if we're honest, have places in our own lives where we don't forgive folks. Oh, that's, and that's like a- Matthew 18 is a vivid picture of that, the parable of the two debtors. Yeah.

He talks about the one who fails to forgive and he says, uh, hand him over to the torturers and then Jesus gives these ominous words. And so my Heavenly Father will do to each of you if you don't forgive your brother from your heart. I mean. Okay, handing you over to the torturers. Now people will try to say, well, that was pre-Pentecost. You know, it was before the spirit was given.

I'm like, yeah, but Matthew wrote these words after the spirit was given. Clearly, the implications are you will be, you will be experiencing some level of real torment by tormentors if you fail to forgive people from your heart. That's, I want to flip the, I want to flip the script a little bit here because we started the show talking about gifts of the spirit. Yeah, we'll run into the deep. I know, we're talking about, you know, you're talking about working and being mentor by Jack Deere, and that, I imagine, helped shape your understanding of the spiritual gifts.

So if we're talking about, we kind of went deep into the darkness here and into the deliverance aspect, but what about the gifts of the spirit? This is something I know you talk about a lot on the show, on your show, but also is controversial, which in lots of places in the church, right? Especially here in like, you know, Tennessee. It's like the Bible Belt, you know, yeah. Let's get into that because I think we've talked about a lot of the darkness of. What about some of these gifts of the spirit that we haven't really covered a lot on the show? But like...

What direction you want to go? Do you want to talk about, you know, why cessationism is even a thing? Sure. That's probably a great start because a lot of folks, probably not in our show, but a lot of folks in Christiandom

in the evangelical spaces, well, they actually sort of, as you talk about logic, they try to separate the natural from the supernatural and say that these things, this is all biblical and then it ceased, right?

Well, I think it's because we have this age of TikTok where everyone's, you know, yeah, it got some wild, crazy story. And so the default is nothing crazy is happening. Yeah. Where it's not true. It's like some, a lot of stuff is snake oil,

but that doesn't mean everything is snake oil. Everything is snake oil. Yeah. So, you know, part of the reason we did the remnant, um, we loved theology history. I always felt like when I became more of a charismatic, I always felt like I had to check my head at the door. And I thought, you know, if I go to charismatic church, it's like,

you hear things stated like, we're to be spirit led, not mine. lead. Well, that's, that's called a false juxtaposition. It's like, you can't truly be spirit led and not use your head. You know, the spirit uses your head. Those things aren't in contradiction to one another. And so, but that, for me, that's what it felt like going to charismatic environment. Then I would go into the cessationist environment, the places that don't believe these things are happening. And I felt like they're not actually solving by the spirit real world issues. There's, there's a whole gap that needs to be met here. The kinds of things that Jesus would do, there's just a huge gap between what I read about in scripture,

when I saw in those environments. And I'm trying to figure out how to bridge that gap, and that's kind of how I got connected with Jack Deere. He could actually help explain things from a theological level, which was so helpful. You know, I didn't just learn about gifts of the spirit from Jack. I learned hermeneutics. I learned exegesis.

I learned, you know, emotional intelligence, too. Like, he sat down and talk to us about our feelings, believe you or not. There's tons that I gained from him. But when I started diving into the gifts of spirit, I had only known cessationist Christianity prior. And I had an encounter with the Lord when I was trying to figure out how to evangelize Brian High School.

I went to Texas A&M. So I was on a Young Life team, had 13 volunteer leaders under me. I was trying to figure out like, well, you know, I'm just a win a hearing for the gospel to these unchurched kids. Seems the most effective way to do that

is to heal a paralyzed man. Because you see, what, three to four thousand come to believe in Jesus one day because of the guy begging for money at the temple gate. And so I'm looking at that going, well, why not Brian High School? Like, that seems to be an effective means to win the lost. Why, you know, God are you still doing these things? And so I had an experience with the Lord. I don't have a better term for it. It was a power encounter. The Lord showed me his power just as I asked him to. And I suddenly knew things were more blurry, gifts to spirit for today. But I couldn't handle the Pentecostal

packaging that I would go to charismatic churches and was always like, you know, the guys who had added an extra syllable to the end of each word. And Jesus, you know, we're sitting on the front road. You can spit on you. Yeah. The anointing. And the Lord. Waving flags. Yeah, yeah. There's a flag waving. Well, I think there's a lot of folks, like, just from my standpoint, like, I grew up in a more of a charismatic church. And to me, growing up in that, like, I always thought, like, I had a hard time with what's manufactured and what is real, right? Like, because I remember. Because I remember. were like people falling over. I don't want to be duped. And I didn't do it. I was like,

I'm not falling over and I didn't fall over. People were like, you're pushing me down. No. No. And I think that like it caused me to be hyper skeptical personally about, you know, are these things, is it a, is it, not that I don't have a problem believing that it happens. I have a problem with like, is it genuine or is this, is it? I think there's a lot of fluff out there. Yeah. When we started the remnant, it was because of that. I got sick of being lumped in as a charismatic with everybody in that camp. Because I'm like, I'm not like them. I actually care about doctrine.

We quote the Nicene Creed at my church on a regular basis. We quote the Apostles Creed on a regular basis. I think these things matter. Good theology, good doctrine, good church history, all of that stuff. And so what I found in the charismatic world was there was so much hype, like you had to work up the Holy Spirit to get him to show up. And what I found in Jack was there was no fluff. there was no need to work it up.

In fact, everything he said was dial it down, which is a John Wimberism, dial down. You know, we don't need to manufacture anything. If the Holy Spirit's up to something, you'll know it. And so that was a really great little education there. But I learned about all the gifts of the Spirit working with him. One of the big things that he would really promote was prophecy. And he didn't do that because he just liked that gift more than other gifts.

He felt like that was actually biblical to promote that gift above other gifts. And he quote, 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, three times Paul will say, desire earnestly spiritual gifts. But then he'll mark one of them out above all the others, especially that you may prophesy. Two out of the three times he tells us to desire earnestly, which is the same words for lust after. He'll say especially prophecy. And then when you look at this guy named John Mark Ruth, and he did a statistical analysis of the Holy Spirit. And this was a fascinating study. I don't know if you like statistics.

I do you. I do too. Yeah, we're data people here. Right, right. So he found, you know, your Old Testament, your Old Covenant is to the Old Testament, your New Testament, your New Testament, right? The writings that sort of lay out the stipulations for each covenant. In the Old Covenant, you have 75% of your Bible is your old covenant. And yet it only contains 25% of the references to the third person of the Trinity. Your new covenant contains 75% of the references to the Holy Spirit, which is a really interesting little statistic because it should tell you something about the difference between the old and new covenant. A lot of people have this misunderstanding that the old covenant is about, you know, how we're saved,

how it's different. And the old covenant, you're saved by works of the law, new covenant, you're saved by grace through faith. That's actually not true at all. We've always been saved by grace through faith, both old and new covenant. That has never changed. What has changed is how God empowers his people. And the old covenant, only a few people were given the spirit, the prophets, priests, and a couple of masons and some judges. In the new covenant, all of God's people are given God's spirit. So the new covenant is an age

that is to be marked by the spirit. Well, here's another cool thing. The reformers, when they were, their primary concern with soteriology, how a person is saved. So they wanted to distance themselves from Catholicism that would sort of promote works. They would sell indulgences,

you could buy your time out of purgatory. They're like, no, no, no, we're saved by grace through faith. That was a major core tenet of the Reformation. But because their concern was so primarily caught up into soteriology and how we're saved, everything when it came to pneumatology, the theology of the spirit, became all about how a person is saved. When you look in the references of Scripture, 90% of the references to the third person of the Trinity have nothing to do with soteriology.

Almost 90% have to do with power. and of that 90% the vast majority have to do with prophetic power. So this should tell you something when it comes to, if we want to emphasize what the scriptures emphasize

to the degree that the scriptures emphasize these things, then what are the new covenant people of God? Well, there are people marked by the spirit of God which looks like power and the vast majority of it

looks like prophetic power. So his emphasis on Jack Deere, his emphasis on prophecy as the gift to be pursued above all the others was actually quite biblical. It's emphasizing what the scriptures emphasize. So how do you parse that, though?

That's my question. We have all these like YouTube and social media profits, right? You've seen this, especially since 2020. You've seen us be critical of these guys too. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's hard because you start, we talk about compartmentalizing. If you're consuming this content, then I think the propensity is to be like, man, these

guys are these, quote, prophets that call themselves prophets that are doing prophecies about presidents and all these different things that, that all that is, is garbage. Like, well, that's, and I don't, that's the thing. It's like, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you weed out that? Yeah. And how, the problem is, is, I agree. I think it's garbage just for the record.

Yeah. Well, I mean, let's look, let's look at like a podcasting, right? So back in the day, 100 years ago, there was like maybe three radio stations and three people that could talk and tell you something that's going on. That's like the old covenant. Yeah. Yeah. Every single person can have a podcast.

Everyone has the spirit of God, but it's like, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have the maturity, emotional intelligence, and then you have the prayer life and the growth to speak with that humility and actually are saying something? It kind of feels... Anybody with a microphone and a video camera can now suddenly be YouTube famous.

Yeah. Well, there's... So this is an interesting thing. The Reformation happened at a major turn of technology. Yeah. The printing press. The printing press. Yeah.

Okay, we're seeing the same thing happen. Yeah. Right? Now suddenly the gatekeepers are being removed. I think it's why we're seeing this massive amount of exposure happening with spiritual abuse. It's because the gatekeepers are removed.

Now the narrative can't be dictated by those who had the mic or the pulpit. Now, everybody has a mic. Everybody has a pulpit. It's online. None of it's earned. That's the other thing that's interesting, right? You can sort, you can just by signing up,

have now a megaphone. I think that was the one thing is that it felt like we can get into, there's so many rabbit holes here. So you've got the profits out there, quote unquote profits. Right. Because they didn't earn it.

They amassed the following online with their garbage prophecies. Right. That's what I'm saying. There isn't sort of a, there's not a, doesn't feel like there's a process to this to where you're sort of like in 50 years ago, like you kind of prove your medal or being solved by the CIA to have a channel, like to have a channel on a voice, right? And now and. But God has to communicate to his people in ancient times and modern times.

Yeah. He's still communicating through his people, right? Yeah. And so there's no doubt about it. So you have problems in the old. Testament with how that went down and there was probably skeptics going, what, it really happened to the top of the mountain? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's like the same thing. It's like, oh, sure, buddy, you and your basement, you know, having a podcast, like, speaking the truth,

God told you this, right? And so it's like the same skepticism, but there's just, well, people are right to be skeptic about it. I actually think, you know, we're seeing a day where there is so much bad prophecy that's happening. We have a saying on the remnant, make prophecy local again. Like stop putting it on YouTube. Stop giving grand national words. So this isn't a new problem, though. You saw in Jeremiah's day one of the judgments that God gave the people of Israel, he gave them false prophets. That was his judgment. They were already apostate. So here, let me make you even more lost. And the prophets of Jeremiah's day were false prophets. You go read Jeremiah 23. Like anybody who is a courtroom prophet, the ones close,

to the king, they were always telling the king what he wanted to hear. It's just another narcissist with a sick of fans around him. And then, yeah, you've got this guy Jeremiah, who isn't a courtroom prophet. He's like on the outskirts. Nobody goes to him. He doesn't tell you what you want to hear. He only has bad news for you. Right. He actually has bad news because you're a very wicked people. He's the Lorax. Yeah, totally. Yeah, don't go to Lorax. Yeah. And I think that's no different today. we've got guys who are prophesying stadiums filled in 2020. They're prophesying Trump is still my president. Not only was he God's chosen, you know, a person,

but he's actually won that election. It was just stolen. And so he's still my president. He's always been my president. Like it's just nonsense. It's absolute craziness. And I think it is God's judgment that we have this. I think the reason people buy into it is the Barna effect.

You know, the, it's like reading a horoscope. Yeah. It always seems true to you, you know? Right. But I think it is God's judgment that we have these false prophets because honestly we're a pretty postate people. Holiness doesn't really matter to us. So then give me this then. This is the gift that Paul talks about that we pursue the most important of the gifts.

You got a whole show on this, but talk to our audience about how you discern. Like how do you qualify something that as being legit and not like because I think so much of it is self-serving or it's meant for. or becomes so ambiguous that you can Nostradamus it backwards. You know what I mean? Totally. Yeah, yeah. It's a bunch of nothing sandwich. Right. So you have to compare, I mean, honestly, you go to the text. In the Old Testament, what were the false prophets doing?

You have criteria, Deuteronomy 13, right? They prophesy things that actually do come to pass. They actually demonstrate real power, perform signs and wonders. But in doing so, they lead you away from Jesus, not to him. They lead you away from the covenant, not to it. Then you have Jeremiah 23. where the prophets were prophesying falsely for monetary gain. They were prophesying encouragement to people

who were doing wickedness with the result that they didn't stop the wickedness they were doing. You have people prophesying, well, they're prophesying, but they're also leading people into sin or committing egregious sins themselves. Like if you want to know what a false prophet is, we've got plenty of examples in it.

Right. Again, they prophesied to wicked people with the result they don't stop their wickedness. Yeah. They lead people away from it. They lead people away from God to other gods or even to themselves. I think that's the more subtle form of it today. To question the prophet is no different than questioning God in the eyes of many people today.

It's a cold. It's a cold. And then they commit sins and lead others into sin. Okay, now let's go true prophecy. Jeremiah, they call people back to covenant faithfulness. He told people to repent. That's a word people don't like to hear. No.

Repent. They don't want to hear that. They do give encouragement, but they give encouragement. but they give encouragement to people who are suffering for doing righteousness. So you look at the Corinthian Church. Corinthian Church was pretty messed up. The reason we know as much about the gifts of the Spirit today as we do is because of the misuse of the gifts that were taking place in the Corinthian Church.

Paul says of them, you're not lacking in any gifts of the Spirit, incredibly gifted church. But he also says of them, I can't give you solid food because you're so immature. You've got a guy sleeping with his dead father's wife. They haven't excommunicated him. You got people getting drunk off the Lord's side. and dying. And then, you know, he has to correct their misuse of the gifts in chapters 12 through 14 of 1st Corinthians. And so in that, he says, like, here's the result of prophecy in a local parish. They encourage, it means to give people courage when they're struggling, when they're

afraid, when they need courage to overcome great obstacles. They build faith, cause you to know that God truly is in the place. Like, they tell you things. There's no way they could know how to not bend God. But in that, they're actually leading you to follow God, not away from him. And then they give comfort, which makes sense. He's known as the Holy Spirit. In First Corinthians 12, the Holy Spirit is called, or the gifts are called manifestations of the Spirit. So what's one of the ways the spirit of comfort manifest himself through getting comfort to people who are suffering? And so you do see the real thing, but it's always in accordance to leading people to Christ, not away from him, to faithfulness to the covenant, to holiness,

not away from it. Yeah. Is that different than a word of knowledge? I just used the word prophecy as sort of an umbrella term to describe all things revelatory. A word of knowledge, we don't, the tough thing about those gifts listed is there's no actual definition given in the passage. It just means fact, something you could not know had it not been God, something revealed by the spirit. So it seems like ultimately the one side is just there's a complete lack of humility there. You know what I mean? And then they look and smell like a church. They look and smell like a good group of people.

but it's so subtle. I mean, that's the hard part is like, you know, sometimes it takes 10 years to realize somebody that you're married to is very narcissistic or something. Sure. You know what I mean? Like, something is true

with some of these false. Yeah. Like these churches, it's just like little tiny clues along the way that you can kind of go, something's not right here. Well, I look for things like

when it comes to finding a church with healthy charismatic practice, I'm going to want to know when they give prophecies, do they judge those prophecies? or do they just accept it carte blanche? You know, it says, let two or three prophets speak,

let the others pass judgment. This is what Paul says in First Corinthians 14 as a correction to what was happening in the Corinthian Church. And then he even says to the prophets, hey, let him who thinks he's a prophet recognize that what I'm writing

are the very words of God. So that's another little clue right there. Are they placing their rubric of truth? Are they filtering everything through the text of Scripture? So if you're a prophet, that doesn't make your words more godly,

than the writing of the scriptures. So everything gets filtered through the scriptures. The scriptures have the final say, they are the authoritative word of God, not your prophetic word. So prophecy has to be judged. If they're not doing that, I'm gonna go, this is probably not a healthy place.

What about people that call themselves prophets? I don't know. That one to me is always like, oh, you're a prophet. Like, I think I'm always like, just healthy. People call themselves teachers. They call themselves pastors. I said, let's see it by the fruit.

Are they actually demonstrate? Does the pastor, does he leave the 99, doesn't care about the brand, doesn't care about the reputation, but he goes after the one that's lost. If they do that, I'm going, that's a real pastor. They're less concerned with their brand, they're less concerned with their celebrity status. They actually genuinely care about people. Teachers, do they teach new revelatory things? Do they get up an exegeta dream they just had on their Sunday service?

Or do they go into the text and go, here's Paul's intended meaning here? Yeah. Are they teaching through the text of scriptures? Are they only doing topical things? and they're coming up with sort of esoteric things that you've never seen before. So I'm going to test all of those things by the fruit. Let me just see if what they're doing

is actually pointing you back to the covenant. Yeah, I think it kind of reminds me of like sort of how we've been doing this show the last five years. It's like, I don't think that the most sensationalized thing ever makes it on the show. Sometimes there is very bizarre stories that you make it on their show.

But I think there's a- You can't judge something by its bizarre name. nature. Yeah, right. But there are a lot of shows like ours that they just go after the most sensationalized thing to get the views, likes, clicks, and this and that. And I think that there is a sense of when you're a pastor of a church, you're leading a people that like sometimes, you know, you got to put the sermon aside and be like, this person's manifesting in the middle of church right here. We've got to deal with this issue. Like we are, yeah, the sermon's important. Yeah, the Sunday, you know, but there's... Oh, that happened in a synagogue service with the Lord, right? He didn't

make a nice clean cut, you know, church. He didn't take that kid to the back, you know, office to get them delivered. Just did it right there. So I'm to deal with this right here. Yeah. But I think, but I think what I'm saying is the, is the hard, it was like Luke and I are always trying to pour through the data and go, okay, I think this Sasquatch story is legitimate. Right. So such a hard left. That's right. Yeah, yeah. But that is the nature of your show. You guys, you go after but you can't believe every Sasquatch story. And you can't believe no Sasquatch stories. So what is happening to go this one seems interesting. This one feels, and usually the person who tells that story, a ton of humility, a ton of like, I... So the ones you tend to believe, you're looking at their

character, which is, I think, a good filter, right? Yeah. Again, are they leading, are they in sin themselves or leading others into sin? Or do they actually live upright, righteous, honest lives? Yeah. I'm going to trust that far more than the testimony of somebody who's, you know... And the content that we continue to bring back on the show feels more like. that. Yeah, yeah. We develop a relationship with this person. We sense there's a genuine, you know, honesty there versus, you know, I, you know, I was an ex, you know, Mason and Satan's and living in my basement, you know, whatever. It's like, it's like, yeah, we could bring that dude on and have some wild conversations, but it doesn't feel right. It feels like we're just doing this

to try and get a million plays, you know, not, not finding the truth, not curating. like an environment where people can build trust here. My take on, I haven't watched everything you guys done. I love your show. I've watched a good bit of it. Well, thank you, Michael. But my take in on it is you're a very wide filter. And just because you have it on the show doesn't mean you agree with it.

100%. Right. We have people, the part of our podcast is we're going to go across denomination lines. We're going to interview Presbyterians. We're going to interview Anglicans, Pentecostal, charismatic. you know, we try to go across the spectrum within Christendom. Yeah. Not because we agree, but because we want to hear something we don't know and really evaluate it.

Understand people from their own perspective. Steelman, the competition. Is it steel man? Is that the right expression? I think that is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But I imagine that's kind of what you guys do. You're taking it a whole lot, but that doesn't necessarily mean you agree with everything. No. So I'm sure there's been some guests you've had on that you kind of like. Yeah. But that's not going to make your show massive. No, no, no. What it does is it, it sort of frustrates a lot of listeners in the sense. But the goal you have

is to try and, I think, inject a lot of humility. And I don't know. I think you're taking in a lot of speculative information that nobody else is diving into, right? You've, you've pretty much branded that supernatural world. You've created blurry as a category, which I love, by the way. I think it's, it's one of the best terms to use for describing this world. I really do. I love it. But you can't do that if you're not willing to listen to people that you would have normally gone. This person might be crazy. I'm going to listen. I'm going to hear them out. I'm going to see what I think afterwards.

But I think that's just how people, it's not about us. It's not about how we filter the show or do the show. It's about how the church can trust and understand things. Like it's a wrestling. It's a going back to the scriptures. It's praying. It's looking at little clues. Like that's what we do.

We debate a lot. Like, should we do that? Should we not do that? I don't know. This happened. That to happen. These things are being posted. okay, maybe this isn't the right thing to do. Let's wait on this. It's not just, yeah, this is hot.

Get them on the show. Get the views. Get them out of here. And then on to the next one. Did you listen to that? Which is why you're here. You're my super hot. It's super hot. That Hansel. He's so hot right now. But that's how church can be. Yeah. Michael Heiser, when he dove into the whole fringe pop stuff when it came to UFOs and all of that, part of the reason he did. it was he was like, look, this is, there's a statistically significant portion of our Christian churches that actually believe that extraterrestrial life is real. That it's out there. So why wouldn't we, as pastors, want to know about these things? Yeah. We should because how, what polemic, what, what arguments, what apologetic do we have to defend Christ with these kinds of things that are coming out? And so,

I like that, that this is space that you guys, I mean, I like that kind of stuff to begin with. I watched all the, was it the House Representative hearings? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The House Oversight Committee. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, with Berlison and Burchett. I'm super curious to hear your guys take on all that. You interview people to get their take. What is your take on some of that stuff?

Oh, it's just turned a hard left. I mean, I think for us, the, we always try to find the outlier stories when it comes to like, you know, we brought on abductees on the show. We get emails from abductees. that are like, hey, I don't, I'm not going to tell my story, but this happened. Thank you for talking about these things because it's real. Yeah, they don't feel so alone. They feel known.

They feel like not crazy for experience with experience. Yeah. But like, and then we get videos all the time of this stuff zipping around. And it's, it's a type of technology. It doesn't fit into our understanding of how we build things. It doesn't feel like it's from here. I don't know what it is. You know, like why would spirits that can do,

whatever they want, need an automobile to get from point A to point B. So there's a lot of questions that come up. And I think for us, it's like, you sort of have to be a scientist and be like, okay, if this guy found a piece of this UFO or, you know, Diana Pesolk was in here, I went there, we dug it up, I held it. It looked like frog skin. You know, these wild stories, you're like, okay, they're building something probably. And it's from somewhere. And with the technology, we can't understand. So I can't go, well, because I read the Bible, that doesn't, that isn't true. because I have put limits on scripture. Is it an argument of silence fallacy?

Yeah. Just because the scriptures don't speak to something, doesn't make it real. Yeah. The internet is always an example. It doesn't scriptures don't talk about the internet. So do we throw that out? No, it's something that's real, right? Sure.

I think from a macro level, my perspective is that I want to have these conversations because I think most of the church is not. And there is a very real opportunity that if we, we're having House Oversight committees, if there is a, quote, disclosure, where that happens or not, If there is, this is enough of mainstream topic. So you don't think it's just a red herring, some sort of government conspiracy to get our eyes. Don't look at this. Look over here. I mean, that's an easy answer, I think. I think it's way more nuanced.

It's all the above usually. I think that's probably some of that happening, but there's probably a real phenomenon that's happening too. And I think that the macro level for me is not having a conversation about it as Christians in a space would be a much greater disservice than to, let's talk, let's have a discourse. Let's see how the idea of an extraterrestrial can fit into our theology. And we go, well, angels are not from here. That would be a definition as an extraterrestrial. I think this is what Mike was trying to do. Mike would go to UFO conferences and he preached the gospel.

I met him at one of these. That's right. Oh, you did. Well, right when Unseen Realm came out, he was doing this, I don't know, it's like the more fringy, weird, you know, pre-trib rapture guys that just like really, they get really into that whole phenomenon. But I was at a thing in Colorado Springs, and that's where I met him. His unseen realm had just come out.

It wasn't yet popular. So I sat at his table talking to him the whole time. And, yeah, but that's what he would do is he would go to those things as an apologist. I feel like when it comes to spiritual deceptions, it's usually like, let's have a prophet, start a religion and get millions of people to follow it and start a whole country that gets millions and millions of people to follow this idea. When it comes to, like, UFO sightings and some of these things, it's a very bizarre in the middle of nowhere. Some farmer, some guy sees a UFO. And the story doesn't make any sense. It like crashes into a tree and then flies off.

It's like that isn't something that is going to deceive millions of people. That's a very weird outlier versus like when I think the spirits like deceive people. They create a giant movement and everyone believes it and they're worshipping a false God. But the UFO thing feels like something totally outside of that. And they crash. Just like we crash. And why? And you can, you can,

it's almost just, just human enough to make you go, that sounds real. Well, also, I mean, from what I was getting back, getting out is like, if the major voices in mainstream media now are talking about this, Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Sean Ryan. Yeah, dude.

So this is becoming mainstream discourse. I feel like the church would do itself a great disservice not to include this discourse within our theological discussions. That's how I think we're trying to do is saying, we don't have an answer. You're also seeing a lot of these guys who are having the conversations, they're proclaiming faith.

Joe Roggan's going to church right now. Sean Ryan came to Christ. You're going, okay. And people always say that's not real. Yeah, that was amazing. Well, they're going to have spiritual answers if the church doesn't give them a better answer. They're going to have,

ancient aliens is that UFO religions are exploding. People know they use terms like Anunnaki. They're building a spiritual framework without Christians. And Christians are... about some of these things. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. But Christians label at all demonic, so it doesn't exist to them.

It's just, it's happening in the ethereal spirit. Because I think a lot of it's demonic kind of manifest. But I think it's very real. It's like, I believe you're real demons. Yeah. It's demonic in the sense it's evil. Yeah. They are taking people.

They're doing DNA experiments. They're doing breeding things. They're doing very nefarious stuff. It's like evil on another level. It's like if fourth dimensional beings could do evil, what would they do? versus what we know humans are capable of, our evil. We do some horrible things. Imagine having this extra intelligence and technology,

and what could you do? What could a fourth dimensional being do in terms of trafficking humans? That's what I think they're doing. They're trafficking people, but they're doing it on an advanced level and undercover. Your thought is not that it's,

I mean, I've heard this a couple times where there's different buckets of these sort of supernatural beings. You get the book Bigfoot as a case in the book. Sure. But then you've got like the, I don't know, the categories. I haven't dove into this near as much as you guys have. But there's summer that are out there that seem to be good.

Like I watched one guy go on the year. Gary Stearman has a really interesting conversation. Yeah, he was on Prophecy Watchers. He's on Prophecy Watchers, right? Or is it Skywatch? I can't know which one it is, but Gary Stehman has a prophecy watchers. I think it was from Tennessee. He was like a former military guy.

He had some sort of experience where he saw these big balls of light. Yeah. And he even got healed of some. conditions. That one's weird. Okay, that one's, that's the Chris Bledso stuff. Yeah, yeah. He has this, it's a feminine spirit called Hawthor, which is very, it seems very demonic in nature.

Yeah. Deceptive. But the other side is Gary Stearman, who has a pilot who has complete mechanical failure on a flight in Texas and has a UFO show up on his wing, and it guides it, it saves him, guides him in and saves him. And this dude has this radical conversion to Christ. And so it's hard to say that is. is demonic when it's leading into Christ.

Yeah. So it's weird. Those are, and that's a, now it's another story, but it's, it's not a, it's not an abduction. It's not weirdly woo-woo with like, it's woo-will. It's not like the Chris Pledged so thing, which you could listen to in here on Sean Ryan. He's also the UFO of God stuff where he's getting healed. And I always go back to like, man, which doctors heal people. This is this happened.

There's no doubt that they perform real signs and wonders, Deerronomy 13. Yeah. But I think when you realize what the, the communication, then, doesn't line up with scripture you're going this isn't something good then this is this is something bad there seems to be a realm where this stuff hangs out in and it can dip in and out of ours and then there's a realm beyond that right so it seems like there are layers and levels these things and um and we just assume that anything that isn't like terrestrial doesn't operate like in the physical engineered you know because the weird thing is some of these these

these, when they test the metals and stuff for some of these UFOs, it's not from here. These metals, they don't know where it is. They don't know where it is. They don't know where it comes from. So have you guys ever had your own experiences? Yeah, I have. Yeah, we talked about that?

We've talked about it. I should watch more. You can point me to the episode. I won't make you answer again. But here's the thing. Most of the authors and the pastors and the people that come on and talk about like what you're talking about,

like spiritual, you know, freedoms and gifts of the spirit and demonic possession, we'll say, we'll have a story when I was a kid, I saw UFO. And it was right,

hovering right over my head, silent, and then it, gone. They're almost like time-traveling machines. They don't use the same type of technology

that we do. And normal everyday people. And most of the people, I think because they come on our show, they, in the back of their story somewhere, something elevated

the way that they see all of this because of that experience. When I was a kid, I saw a SaaS, I saw, you know, my friend told me he was abducted or whatever, you know, something gets their mind in a different place. So when they... Yeah, something broke the paragraph. Yeah, something broke the world.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's a, it's a range of experiences. That was the beginning for both of you? Is that right? No, no. For me, it was, it was like, it was just listening to Sasquatch stories over and over again and when it's like the park rangers and the police officers. But then when David, when I started listening to David Politis's stuff on the missing 411, that people,

people go missing. It started to feel serious to me. Like, okay, okay, this is like, this was all fun in games, but, wait, people are just... Lives are actually affected. Yeah, people are going into the national state parks and just disappearing. No animal. Like, just walking from our dimension to somewhere else almost, or being taken by something that has that ability. And it felt like a crime against humanity that was unsolved. It felt like the beginning of true crime, you know, like something's happening. This is like a true crime. Uh, and nobody's, knows it's out there. Because these things don't exist, so then it must have some explanation, but he outlined this whole story of like there's thousands of cases where they...

So here you are a Christian and you're watching this stuff and you're trying to make sense and synthesize these two worldviews colliding. Yeah. Yeah, you can't, I can't ignore this evidence in front of me. Exactly. I believe this also to be true. I really believe Jesus rose from the dead. Yes. I think that's the Heiser paradigm for me and for us, I think Nate as well, is that, like, being raised in the church and then coming to this realization that like there's this whole other part of the story that seems to kind of be ignored

even though there's some charismatic aspects of my of my of my of me growing up in church but this unseen realm story things about like the Genesis 6 event that I didn't really understand or or and that widens your paradigm enough to be like this kind of fit like we have

there's so much we don't know and there's there's such a space for there's not a kingdom and phylum for supernatural creatures that we have any sort of like we don't have an encyclopedia for sure we get like we're gonna make a chart though at some point yeah we're gonna be a crazy charlie this is weird i had a dream last night that um uh it was probably spurred from a conversation we had last night but i had i literally had a dream this was like waking thoughts about the whole tower of babble thing and how you've got these ancient monolithic sites and they all like sort of correspond to oh ryan's belt and um and in this dream i was i was

having conversation about... You were hearing of Jones? Yeah, totally. No, I was having conversation about how when he says that nothing would be impossible for them, they would actually, they were able to, like, contact that other side. They were able to build something

and allowed them to actually access the stars, so to speak. And I just, sorry, I just literally remembered this dream. Wow. But I kind of wondered, you know, people think that these ancient monolithic sites that we have today are prediluvium. Like, that's the whole ancient alien thing. The stuff you see on it with, what's his name, Graham Hancock?

Yeah, huge. But the weird thing is the Tower Babel happened after the flood. Sure. Yeah. How do they square that? Sorry, I just went another hard left. No, no, I mean, I think that this technology is passed down. I think they use dimination to get some of these answers.

You know, I think that they knew, you know, it's like the whole argument for the elongated skulls. Why would somebody take their baby and, like, try to get. get their skull to look like that. Well, because they saw something with elongated school. Yeah. Because that was a royalty sign back in the day. There were beings with long skulls

and we've dug it up. We've even had people, I've taken this stuff to get tested. And people still deny that it's a thing. They're like, oh, it's just a human head. Anyway, what I'm saying is, I think they had, they knew their grandparents

or their great grandparents built this stuff. They knew how, kind of how. And then they, you know, there's, there's evidence in that story of the Tower of Babel that they were doing sex. magic. And so they were, one of the theories is pre-flood giants were purely genetic. And then post-flood giants were GMOs, genetically modified humans. So there's the same sort of goal,

but the way they achieved it was different. So I think, okay, Ferris Bueller quote, dig up her bones and, you know, bring her on in. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's the, the question is like, everybody says, well, where are the bones? We're, show me the bones. That's, welcome to blurring creatures. Yeah. That's what we've been spending five years tackling these stories that prove. I mean, we have people who are like, I've dug them up in my basement. I won't come on your show, though, but the local university showed up.

My grandpa, my grandpa. The Smithsonian came installed on. Or a university does. We brought on farmers who've dug them up and had like, you can't touch us so you get fined. I mean, I would say also counterpoint to your, to the megalithic stuff. Like, we know the Nazis were doing this. They were, they were, they were trying to channel.

technology through occult practices. This is something that we're actually having an episode, future episode with a guy that's a historian on this. I'm interested in this one. But they were allegedly trying to tap into entities for technology. There's no doubt he was an occultist. And when the Allies took Berlin, they found prototypes and drawings for stuff

that was like so far past what the technology was for the Allies had that had the Germans been able to complete these things. They probably would have won the war based on technological advance. And they are on record saying, that they were attempting, channeling, to attempt to get

technology from. Yeah. This is the whole operation paper clip with all these scientists about our side is bringing all of the,

all of the, the brain drain, right? But this, there is, there is at least anecdotal evidence and they have the spaces, they have the,

the rooms that they use. There's, there's quotes from, from high-ranking Nazi officials that they were, they were trying to get technology and information from somewhere else.

So this, this could be, that's one example, that's a more modern day, but this could, literally be how instead of having your angelic father in Genesis 6 who is giving you this knowledge you know as part of the taking wives thing in Gen 6 you've got sort of this other way this backdoor where you're channeling stuff from somewhere else. It's just some ancient source. Yeah.

You know, demons. We're solving problems with different means. You know, it's like now we have a small little mini fridge. You know what I mean? We've gone everywhere. But here's the thing. UFO sightings are not modern. There's ancient sightings. Yeah, and it's phenomenon that's worldwide too. It's not just a local, like now we're a global world. Like we actually have communication.

We can connect everybody in there. Yeah, but in the past it didn't happen. Yet here we have all these shared experiences throughout history. Hollywood created a UFO like movement based on actual stories, historical documents. There is one, and like one of the first UFOs being caught on camera was like the 1800s.

Some guy was on a mountain and he was shooting like doing photography on a mountain and he catches one like late 1800s like a silver disc flying through. You can look it up and it was considered by the UFO community as the first picture of a UFO. This is 1800s. Way before when we just had photography. We also talked to Dana Posoko about like there's a there's a whole in the library of the Vatican there's a whole section that's documents like more ancient, like sort of spiritual phenote, UFO, what we consider UFO phenophon? in the Vatican. So we kind of worked with what worked back with Diana. Did you get this on film? Yeah, we did an episode. But I mean, that was a grab bag because she was only in here for an hour. We were like buzzing through so many topics. And that's kind of what happens here is like,

um, we sort of shotgun blast all these topics, whether it's UFO sightings, whether it's the spirit. Yeah. Casting out demons. No, I love it though. I mean, this is so yeah, I mean, I guess we got to we got to lay in this thing somehow, but, uh, but, but I, yeah, I, I, I can, I, I, I guess what I'm hearing from you ultimately is like not everything is true, but not everything is false. Oh, certainly. And somewhere in the middle, we have to sort of land, but it is more blurry. It is more strange. It is the gospel, the story of humanity, like what we're called to do as Christians is not, you can't put it in a little box. It doesn't fit very well in there.

But it's also specifically laid out in the gospels. If we open our Bibles, we can look and say this is what they did. This is what Jesus said. This is what Paul said about these gifts. And it's very specifically put there. So it's a hard argument to say that we're not supposed to do this or these things don't exist. It's way harder. Yeah. The biblical worldview is definitely blurry. The biblical worldview is there's a supernatural realm that's very real. And they don't, they don't dismiss the idea. I mean, Deuteronomy 18 is like such an interesting passage. Here's Moses warning the people of Israel before they go into the land of Canaan. He says, you're going to see these things.

don't do these things. Yeah. And he mentions divination. He mentions mediums, spiritist, witchcraft, sorcery, and necromancy. And he doesn't talk about it as though it's fictitious,

you know, like just nonsense, I have nothing new with it. He talks about it as it's real, and it's this reason that God is driving the Canaanites out of the land. They defiled the land. And so there's no doubt in my mind

that if you really are honest about your faith, your faith in Christ, compels you to embrace a world that is more supernatural and blurry than what we have had here in the Western world, which is a rationalistic French Enlightenment-impacted world view. No doubt about it. And trying to cross that bridge and, you know, this is what we've done on the remnant somewhat, is to try to demystify what is very mystical.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I appreciate it. And I think that, you know, I think what we have is a lot of people, waking up to the matrix. Yeah. And waking up and realizing that the, that it's not what they say they is. And the problem is,

is a lot of non-Christians are waking up to that, looking for better answers. Oh, I think Joe Rogan is on that journey, no doubt. Like, they look at the pyramids and they're like, no, that, whatever we told how these things are built here, or it's not true. Now technology is looking under the pyramids and saying, well, this thing is, this thing isn't just a bunch of blocks.

It's actually an ancient machine. And this technology, and like you said, laid out to Orion's belt, and what? Like why? Yeah, why? You take God out of the explanation, then you start getting some bizarre alien-seated humanity. Also, Graham Hancock paradigm, right? Let's explain this with drugs and the antithesis of the Bible.

It's not used the Bible. Let's explain it with... Let's channel the spirit realm to give us answers. And we'll come to the same conclusions. I'm very thankful that my Christianity, as I came to Christ, I had real supernatural experiences to ground myself in and go, No, the scriptures are actually telling the truth about these things. Like, there's real answers for this.

Before I dove into some of the other stuff, like extraterrestrials, because the fact that, you know, David Grush is testifying in front of a Senate hearing or house hearing, that's really spooky. The world has got to be going, wait, wait, what is going on? They don't exactly know where to look. Right. So, yeah, I'm very thankful for that past I had because I have very real supernatural experiences that I can ground very well. You can stick your flag in the ground and say this is all, this is stuff is real.

And I have, I have a paradigm that can contain it. And that's, I think that's something we're trying to achieve here is like, yeah, your faith is big enough. And you guys are apologists in some sense. You really are. That's, well, thank you. I didn't ever thought of us. We apologize a lot?

Yeah, we do. We're not Canadian. We don't apologize enough. So. We are sorry that you had to sit here and listen to us rant for the last two hours. But Michael, tell our folks, tell our listeners where they can find, listen to your show, perhaps come to your church. Sure.

You do a lot of things I know across the country as well. You do you do conferences. You speak a lot of places and they can interact with what you do. So I have a personal ministry, Avenue for doing missions and conferences and things like that called Thomas Ministries.org. Thomas was the one who's kind of doubting. And so, you know. I like that.

I always liked that as well because I was a skeptic on most things. You know, I wanted it to be shown to me. And then I've got my church in Denver, just a local community. It's great. I love these group of people. I'm one of the most honored people in the world to get the pastor. That's called Reclamation Church in Denver, Colorado. And then, yeah, I have a podcast that I'm a co-host for called the Remnant Radio,

where we dive into doctrine, theology, church history, and gifts to the spirit. And then I'm married. And that's probably the biggest part of my life. Got a couple kids and another one on the way. Let's go. Let's go. And your show is daring enough to have us two dummies on it. So we appreciate you that for that as well.

Born in 1982. Born in 1982. I'm an 80s kid. great year. Yeah. I kind of flipping out when I saw all the paraphernalia. Like this is so much fun for me.

Oh yeah. Well, we'll have to do some more stuff together. We tempted you to come skating with us with all the blurry people at the blurry con kickoff party. I got a baby though. Yeah, you're out, bro.

I totally would have loved to have done that. That sounds like so much fun. Yeah. That is the most 80s thing you can do in 2025 is hit the roller rink. Are you blading or are you skating? We got to go real, we got to go real roller.

roller skates. Nate and I are not going to couple skate together. Sign of the fact, we do the show together. Luke will probably do the, what is the thing where you have to go under the bar that already does? Yeah, the limbo, yeah. We'll shoot the duck. We talked about this other day.

You got to do it all. We're going to get Sasquatch to DJ, roll the 80s hits. That's awesome. We're going to attempt to you there. We're going to make you want to be a baby. I know, I know, I know. But anyway, thanks so much for coming to our door.

Yeah, of course. It's fun. Coming to our basement and hang out of us. Have a good one. All right.